The Watch - Ep. 37: 'Game of Thrones,' 'The Good Wife,' and 'Captain America: Civil War' With Bill Simmons, Juliet Litman, Sean Fennessey, and Jason Concepcion

Episode Date: May 9, 2016

Chris Ryan hosts today's show without Andy, but gets help from a slew of Ringer staffers. First, Bill Simmons recaps the 'GoT' season thus far and talks about his favorite Netflix horror film. Then, Juliet Litman breaks down the series finale of 'The Good Wife' (14:00). Finally, Sean Fennessey and Jason Concepcion join to discuss 'Captain America: Civil War' (27:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening to The Watch. You can subscribe to us on iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher, and Google Play Music. And make sure you subscribe to the Ringer's newest podcast, keeping it 1600, the Ringer NFL show, and the Ringer NBA show. Again, all on iTunes, SoundCloud and Google Play Music. And remember to check out After the Thrones, hosted by me and Andy Greenwald. I know we had a little delay today, technical difficulties, but it's usually available after every episode of Game of Thrones on HBO Now, Go, and even HBO proper. It'll be on tonight on television, 10 p.m. Pacific, 1 a.m. Eastern, I think.

Winter is here. Me and Andy are here to break it down. Today, Andy, actually, unfortunately, couldn't make The Watch. So for the first episode on our feed, it's just me. But it's me with my friends. I've got Sean Fennessee, Bill Simmons, Julia Littman, and Jason Concepcion to help. We're talking Game of Thrones,

the Good Wife finale, and Captain America Civil War. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Seatgeek, our presenting sponsor, and the only fan-friendly app for buying and selling sports and music tickets. Other sites have gone back to the same, tactic of showing you a lower price and then charging huge fees to check out. But at Seatgeek, the price you see is always the price you pay. With Seatgeek, there's no guesswork. You'll know exactly how much you're paying, where you're sitting, and whether or not you're

getting a good deal, all right from your phone. So drop your old site and experience buying and selling tickets the way it should be. To start using Seatgeek, download the free Seatgeek app or go to seatgeek.com. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris. Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, it's the Mad King. Phil Simmons. I'm upset. I'm filling in for Greenwald along with a bunch of other people. This is our first episode on the watch feed. And Andy's out today. Andy had something to do, but he couldn't make it today, but we just wanted to make sure we had everybody up with an episode.

It's our first day. You can subscribe to the watch on iTunes. Congrats. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Give your own feed, and you have your own Twitter feed. Yeah, so this will be The Watch. You'll also get Andy Groomwald podcast, the Andy Groomwold show on this one. We got one for you this week with a very special guest. Bill, how you doing?

And thanks to everyone for supporting the watch. Yeah. Top 2 on iTunes. That was nice. Fantastic. Yeah. I'm doing good. I saw a great movie on Netflix this weekend I wanted to tell you about.

That's definitely the most important thing from culture this weekend. It was. Yeah. It was. Because how rare is it to be surprised by a Netflix movie? Yeah. Or any movie. You're like, oh, is that?

that and you talk yourself into it. It's no longer the place for movies. It's more like a, you catch up on shows there. You can watch their original programming, but nobody really is like, did you see this? I found this movie in the library this weekend. Yeah. And just in general, I feel like I know every movie that's out. Or I already have a preconceived opinion on like, oh, that movie.

Oh, I remember that's the one. And this one I knew nothing. And the best man in my wedding, Jeff Gallow, who's the biggest Halloween fan I've ever met, who loves horror movies and we love horror movies together. And he just emailed me over the weekend. And he's like, go get hush on Netflix. Okay. This is it.

This is a little touch of Halloween, little touch of silent rage, which we love back in the day. And that was it. I went in blind with my wife at like 11 o'clock at night. Put it on. It was petrifying. I don't want to give anything away. Well, give me the elevator pitch. Cabin.

Remote. Alone. The girl is deaf. Ooh. Hence hush. Because it's quiet. Quiet. Can't hear.

Killer. Deaf girl by herself. Deaf girl by herself cabin killer. Interesting. That's it. That's my pitch. Interesting. I have a lot of questions.

It is a great 80 minutes. I actually watched a horror movie this weekend too. Would you watch? It's called The Boy starring Lauren Cohen from Walking Dead. Yeah. And it's about she plays an American kind of like running away from a bad relationship in Montana where she's from. She goes to rural England, lovely countryside, like down and abbey type house.

gets their older couple, hires her as a nanny. Always good. And they're like, we want to introduce you to our son. And she's like, great. And they bring her up to the kid

and it's a doll. But they're pretending, like they're fully committed to the idea that this is their son. So there's this whole story about this, the real son burned up and a tragic fire.

And they've been pretending all these years, but there have been lots of nannies and none of them seem to last very long. It sounds like my dad and my stepmother with their dogs. They give their dogs human names and have birthdays for them.

Do they have like stuffed dogs? They're like, you're still here. And parties? Anybody else have birthday parties for their dogs and invite other dogs? Because that's my dad and messed up up. Did you watch Game of Thrones this weekend? I did. I'm caught up on Game of Thrones.

Great. I like every Game of Thrones. Yeah. A couple things. I always like when people can regain their eyesight. I like when people can go into an alternate universe when they're not paralyzed. Yeah. I like when people can come back to life.

I like that John Snow had to kind of sell the knife wounds. like with the hugs like just like I can't believe it I'm like hey buddy good to see oh yeah my 10 knife wounds he recovered by the end he looked like he had the platelet

treatment by the end of the game you know great icy stare by the teenager who tried to kill him when the four hangs I love this is terrible but I that was one of the better hangings I've seen in a TV show

I felt like it was really realistic not since Deadwood episode one yeah like a nice wide shot from the back of everybody's legs kicking it was just really brutal I love capital punishment yeah it was great Those guys deserved it.

Any questions I can help you with about what's going on on the show? An insane amount of questions. Who's winning? Who's winning Game of Thrones right now? That's a great question. I would say it's a push right now. I think that the evil guy's up there. Right.

Ramsey's up there. Ex-husband. Is it ex or are they still like legally married? Sansa's marriage history is a little complicated because she was actually married to Tyrion, but they never did the deed. So it's like that's not official. You couldn't know that. That's like Chris Humphreys.

She did get married to Ramsey, though. So she is his wife. Yeah. But, you know, I think right now one of the things that's interesting, Andy and I talked about this. So, by the way, after the Thrones, that will be on tonight. Sorry about that. Some technical difficulties. We know that we're doing our best.

But we talked about this a little bit where it's like, does anybody actually want to run this world? Or do they just want their little local regions, you know? Or is anybody making the move to kind of take over the whole chessboard? I don't read the books. I know what's going on just as. and I like this show, but I'm not, like, obsessed with it and all that stuff. It does seem like we're heading toward just complete chaos, followed by the Ned Stark kids somehow winning in the end.

Would be what my bet was on. Yeah, I think the chaos is going to be, it's extended chaos. Right, but I also feel like Kevin Durant's coming back to Boston. So I'm like, I don't trust my. Coming back to Boston. Well, he's played games there, and now he's just going to come there. Come there for good. The prodigals.

If you guys want to. Kevin Durant coming home, montage. It's going to be incredible. He's back. Yeah, it just feels like we're headed for chaos, which is going to be incredible. Yeah, and I think that that always just provides for the kind of opportunities to have the sort of surprises and twists that the show thrives on. So what, give me a prediction for the next two episodes. I think we're going to find out more about what happens in that tower, in that flashback scene.

Yeah, and I seem like a pivotal tower. Yeah, and I think that I think either Aria or Dineris and hopefully both will. will move forward because they've both been, Arias been stuck in the house of the undying, or the house of Black and Right, rather, for a really long time. And she's been training and lost her sight, got her site back,

was begging. I think that she's going to start moving forward. And DeNaris, who kind of this season has been trapped with the Dothraki. I think that looked like Jora and Dario were coming to the rescue in the scenes from next week. What do you think of, what did you think of the Kit Harrington dick jokes

after when he was walking back? Surprising little, like, needling of Kit Harrington there, I thought. Yeah, it was a good one. I like that people have a sense of humor in Game of Thrones,

which is like just the most brutal, terrible place of the planet. But they're making like drinking jokes and dick jokes. It's good. Yeah, I feel like we're headed toward a roast, maybe near the end in the last season. Anything else you want to get off your chest? I'm always amazed with Game of Thrones when they have the sword fighting scenes. Like the guy with the double swords. Then he was pretty badass.

Like I could read a 5,000-word article on it. How did that guy do it? How much time was how much time do you prepare? Was there CGI? Like, you know, the Spurs Thunder game was amazing on Sunday night. The Sword guy won the weekend for me. Double Sword, five guys. And then you have the, he was so good.

Everyone's kind of afraid of him. So I kept waiting for somebody to dive at his knees. Nobody did that. I also liked that Bram was like, oh, my dad kills this guy. I know all about this. And then it's like, what? Like, yeah. It was like getting like a Zapruder film or something.

Is it emotional for you at all that Max von Saito? the good Nazi from victory the greatest soccer movie ever made he's the good Nazi I like seeing him Game of Thrones I had no idea he was still alive yeah he's he is one of our he's just one of those guys who shows up

in a movie every three years and you're just like I cannot believe that MVS is still kicking MVS it's been like decades and decades for MVS I highly urge everyone out there to not sound like the old guy but the last 35 minutes of victory

as good as it gets for sports movies. I would put it with the last half hour, Rocky 2. Last half hour of draft day. Yeah, last half hour of draft day. The last 20 minutes of Hoosiers, it would get the soccer is incredible. They filmed it super wide. Who is the director, John Houston? And he filmed it. He's super widescreen, almost like he knew 25 years from now. Plasma TVs, that were HD widescreen. We're coming. And the soccer is great. And if you really know and love soccer, they actually the goals make sense there's like counter attacks and and paylay with a great Houston yeah I did not know that yeah oh my god and paylay with a great bald spot and it's a murderers were of great players from that era like Werner Roth and who's the Dutch guy there's a whole

bunch of them it's like it's like it would be like if they made the movie now and like Messi was in it and all these people who it's all the best people from like 1880 yeah yeah Daniel Brul will play the good Nazi yeah and Michael Cain is the sweeper and he's just so so pop-bellied and fat that they just have to do close-up shots of him. The athletes were like that back then though. Pop-bellied. There were soccer players who were just like really bad bald spot would smoke during halftime. Like they would have a like a muffin and like a coffee full of milk and sugar before they went back out.

I'd miss those days. Oh, and I forgot to mention that. Slice Dalone makes the catches a penalty kick. That's amazing. Has anyone ever caught a penalty kick in the history of soccer? Without moving, you mean? It's just like a dive catching it? But what's the point of catching a penalty kick?

Just to show up the Nazis. Does this stick it to them? The good Nazi appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, so hush and victory. And you're in our Game of Thrones. Here's my last Game of Thrones question. What episode do you think will be the best episode from the way these first three went?

I think that there will... I'm going to say five or nine. Those are my two choices for episode of the year. I think I think you're right. I think there's always a great penultimate. episode and I also think we're in for like a mid-seat. So basically you see it goes in like these arcs of two where it's like set up execution, set up execution. So I think four or five will be like a big one and I think somewhere like there will be like a seven and a nine. I think we're going like

odd numbers. But I think they almost make these in almost two-hour movie blocks now. I thought of our first movie that the ringer can make. Sure. It's it's a homemade movie. It's a homemade movie. It's a Team movement. Oh, Juliet's excited. It's a TV movie. It's about this guy who hosts the Game of Thrones postgame show, and he gets to see Game of Thrones early. And before he sees the penultimate episode, whichever knows, is always the best episode. These TV bloggers kidnap him.

Is he deaf and he winds up in a cabin? He winds up in a cabin. And he loses his hearing and he has to fight his way out. That's fantastic. Now, it's... Does Max von Sito show up at all? There's a soccer scene. Can we get MVS?

What's the deal with that? There's a soccer scene. Now, the fact that you see these before me drives me crazy. And then I have to stare at your face and you can't say anything and I have to like interpret like the way you're eating a salad. I do practice how when I come back into the office when people are like, how was it? And I say, good. Good. Good.

Yeah. Pretty good. All right. Bill Simmons. Thank you so much for joining us. And thanks for subscribing to the watch feed. I look forward to hearing Greenwald on this. Hey, before we get to Juliet, I just want to talk a little bit about the black tucks.

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It's that easy. Visit the blacktucks.com slash BSPN to experience a new way. way to rent. That's the blacktucks.com slash BSPN. And now I am joined by my OTP, other, well, no, it would be other podcast partners. So OPP. OPP. Julli-T. OPP's here. Hello. The queen of Canada. Can't believe. So our subject, Chris, the people of Toronto hate me forever. Julia, let's talk about the good wife. Andy never lets me talk about the good wife, man. Andy never lets me talk about the good way. This is the equivalent of me. Like, if Andy all of a sudden had like another person on to talk about the Americans, I'd be pretty steamed. But you know what?

I just want to say I could do that too. I'm still watching the Americans. Maybe you guys can do it next week. Sure. I'd love to. Juliet and I, we love a good life. We do. We watch it together, in fact.

Yeah. You urged me to get into it. I binge watched seasons one, two, and three upon your recommendation. And then I've been watching four, five, six, seven. Yeah. And wow, that's like we've been friends for a long time already, Christ. When you put in good wife terms. How many good wife seasons have you known before?

And then last night I did it. It all came to an end. Now, I think that we wanted to have two kinds of conversations. One is just about the good wife in general and how we feel about it ending. Shout out to Christine Branski. You are something of a good wife, truther. Yes. In a way. Because I feel like you have always been acutely aware of the off-screen gossip and machinations happening with this show. Certainly.

And obviously, we had Archie Punjabi versus Juliana Margulies was like one of the, one of your core stories. Absolutely. I just want to know the truth so badly. I've tried to use my own little birds here in Los Angeles to find out the truth. You are the master of good wife whispers. I am the veris of the good wife gossip, good wife gossip mail. But this is literally finding out the truth about this is like trying to figure out what the, like, the monolith is in 2001. Like you go up to it and you're like, tell me.

And nobody, you can't break it. I thought that I knew as well. I thought that I knew that Archie Punjabi was a problem. And I thought that I knew she was written off the show. You knew that because you got information suggesting that, or you knew that based on your surface read of things? From both. Like, partially information from my little birdies

and partially information from reading the internet constantly. It just seemed like the narrative was Archie Punjabi and Juliana Margulies had a falling out. Therefore, Archie Punjabi and Juliana Margulies were never in scenes together. Only on the phone. Only on the phone. And then it was even worse. Archie Punjabi. who played Kalinda, the investigator, who, like, really was, like, the key to, to the original firm,

Lockhart Gardner. He actually was started at Stern Lockhart Gardner. Probably Stern. Stern. He came back in season two and then they got rid of him. Okay. I also watched suits and have watched many lawyer shows. A trope of lawyer shows is, like, a partner coming back.

Can I ask you a quick digression question? Yeah. Gun to your head. Lawyer shows or doctor shows. Doctor shows. Okay. I have so many lawyers in my family that I've got that. covered. I would still know a lot about the law.

Doctor shows is all I've got. But I'm glad you brought that up because I was willing to accept this narrative of Archie Punjabi being the problem because I love ER so much. And I want to ride Julianna Marguerle. She just seems great. I just, I, are so it seemed. But then we get to last night's finale and it ends with spoiler alert.

Alicia Florek has decided to divorce her husband. She has completely ruined the marriage of her partner Diane Lockhart. She To save her husband. To save her husband. A year in jail, basically. A year in jail is what he would have had to face. He's already done eight months before.

Like, he probably could have survived. Yeah. She thinks that she's going to end up with this guy who has then, like, vanished. And she then is walking through, like, the bowels of some hotel in Chicago when Christine Bransky, my one true queen, slaps her in the face. And that's the end of the good wife. Alicia is slapped. And it turns out that in the pilot, or if I had forgotten this, but the pilot, Alicia

Slaps Peter. So it was kind of like a full circle. Symmetry. Yeah. But so then Michelle and Robert King, who run, created and show ran Goodwife for years, came out afterwards and they were kind of like, the good wife is kind of like, like Elisha Floric is kind of a tragedy. And the good wife, you know, and there became all this dialogue about the show where it was like, the good wife was about corruption or power and stuff like that. And I, I think that there's definitely something to that. But it sort of disregards the fact that this was still often, I think in your overall. own words, like kind of a daffy case of the week lawyer show. Yeah.

With about like great broaches and cool like legal maneuvers. And one of the reasons I liked this show so much, and I think I've said this to before, is it was a show about adults for adults. Yeah. Like it for all of like the drama and intrigue that it played off of, like specifically it was based on the Elliott Spitzer scandal. Um, it was a lawyer, it was a lawyer show about like adults with adult problems. It was about like managing dating when you have kids and like how to deal the fact that

you are in like a you're still secretly with your you're still secretly seeing other people while you're publicly married to your husband like it was a show that was realistic and the last episode was just sort of like it was like soap opera material yeah yeah the slap was just like I'm ready for the slap too which is now just about about the making of the show legislating diane slapping alicia so the the thing i want to talk about is that with what we were saying about Archie Punjabi and the machinations, the off-screen stuff. It's kind of interesting to think about the way that they decided to end this with that in mind, because there had been a New York Times interview with Juliana Margulies and the Kings.

Let's just call her a Jewel's. It's easier. A couple weeks ago. Jules and the Kings. Yes. And Marguerlees said that CBS had come to her after the Kings and said, we're not going to, we're done. We're done at seven. We're not going to do an eight season. And it's CBS had come to Juliana Margulies and said, well, we're thinking about doing an eighth season.

would you still do it? And she was like, so I was forced to choose between like siding with the Kings or going along with them and ending the show and then like losing everybody who was working on the show losing their jobs. Yes. And that was one thing that was interesting. So she there's already a little attention. And then she had basically said, I still don't know how I feel about the finale or I watched,

like when I read the script for the finale, it took me a really long time to kind of be at peace with it. And that's like you can see. why. This actually reads, like, if you watch this episode, it plays like they are very hostile towards her character and her as a person. Yeah. And I think that's what kind of threw people off. Right. And that makes me rethink everything with Archie Punjabi because also last season was Archie Punjabi's final season. She heard in her final episode. There's a scene with her and Alicia at the bar with Kalinda and Alicia and came out. And the Kings, the whole season were like, yes, there'll be resolution between Alicia and Kalinda.

And then after the episode, it comes out that they actually never shot it together. It was like they used body doubles and like over the shoulder shots to piece it together. So it just makes me think that there's just so much drama with Juliana Margulies. And yeah, I just feel like I've lost my true north. We've also just been conditioned now to expect last final seasons to be so meticulously handled. Yeah. And this was actually, I think I saw somebody talking about. I can't remember who said this.

So I apologize for taking their idea. But somebody compared this to the How I Met Your Mother Finale. And it's sort of how just how separate it felt from like the rest of the series. Right. And how it seemed to make like this weird screeching left turn. And I think you can, I know there's all this dialogue about St. Alicia and whether Alicia Floric was like a good person or a selfish person over the course of the series. But I did definitely think that this didn't feel like the show that I watched for the last. five years. I agree with you. And I think there's a couple of like of like data points to

look at and talking about how this is different. And like first of all, um, Carrie Agos was completely irrelevant for the last like two or three seasons. Yeah. Yeah. And season. It's not a not acceptable to you. No. As a Gilmore Girls fan, I cannot stand with Logan Huntsberger being pushed to the side. No, but Carrie had the potential to be interesting. He was like kind of like the privileged white guy of the show who turned out to actually be like a pretty good dude with like a tortured relation with his father. And he was he was interesting despite the fact that you could just think he was like a regular guy. And he just was he was basically not in this season. Like he probably got paid a lot and like shout out to him. But he definitely didn't earn it and they didn't allow him to earn it pretty much. There's that. Second of all, um, the like true heart of the show has always been Eli, Alan Cummings character. And his daughter was phenomenal and she was been on the last few seasons. as a recurring character, but kind of why Eli was so fun was really lost, I think. He was

kind of put into a defensive position a lot, and I really preferred him being like offensive. And it just seemed that he became, once he was at odds with both Alicia and Peter, and he was just kind of like a free agent, the sort of like the symphony of all the characters working together was lost. It went quiet, one might say. I want to end on this note, which is just that you were talking about the good wife being an adult show for adults. And I really, really like that. Just even like the fact that there was so much social drinking that happened in that show or rather private drinking. There was both. They had their spot in the bar. But that was never like a, oh, we have like an alcoholic character. Like even on Mad Men, it eventually became quite clearly a

problem for quite a few of those characters. I really liked the fact that this is almost like a throwback to the TV that we probably remember from our childhood of like, it's just always on. Yeah. 22 episodes. And like it could have just gone on forever and I wouldn't really have like had a problem with that. I don't know if I always would have been a religious viewer of the show, but it was interesting to see it kind of be pulled into prestige television discourse, which is something made note of with its fake low winter sun show that would sometimes be on in the background. And yet everybody worked on it seemed to be sort of exhausted by the 22 episode run. And Marley said you couldn't pay her any amount of money to do another 22 episode show.

I never wanted to revise my feeling on Carol Hathaway. So this is very upsetting to me. Can we focus on three extreme positives from the Goodwife? Absolutely. As a final note. No show has integrated technology in the rapid evolution technology as well as the good wife. Except for Black Mirror, maybe. Except for Black Mirror, which is like in a class onto itself.

It's not fair. It's three episodes. It's three episodes like every few years. But the Good Wife invented Chumham, their equivalent of Google, and stuck with it for the entire run. And it was really well done. They also like along the same lines. They had Gabe Woods from Silicon Valley involved in like this NSA plot.

Yeah. Zach Woods. Zach Woods. Sorry. Does he play a Gabe on any show? I'm sure he does. He looks like a Gabe to me. But so they are just really good at integrating technology in a way no other show, except for Black Mirror, really can.

Number two, I just want to say that no actor has really been elevated by a role the way that I feel the good boy did for Josh Charles is Will Gardner. I miss Will Gardner forever. And number three, no one has ever looked as meticulous and majestic as Christine Branski's Island Lockhart. She's a true inspiration to women everywhere. She will always live on in Andy's sign-off on the watch, but it's really tough to see Bransky go. I was watching somebody had retweeted this weekend, pictures from the Mamma Mia rap party.

Oh, God. And Bransky was just out there crushing it. She's incredible. With Dominic Cooper and Alexander, or Stellin Scarsgard, just like, tanned. with a giant white wine doing karaoke. She makes me want to be rich so I can have clothes as meticulously tailored as hers. What a way to go out. Thanks for having me on the show.

My pleasure. Before we get to Sean and Jason to talk about Captain America, let's talk about Draft Kings, man. Experience the thrill of one week fantasy golf this week at draftkings.com. Amazing prizes are up for grabs each time you play. And playing is easy. Just pick six golfers before a tournament tease off, stay under the salary cap,

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Yo, Chris. And I also have on the other line, Jason Concepcion. What's up, Jason? Friend. We are forming, much like a group of superheroes who might protect. to the world against supernatural and natural foes. Avengers, if you will. Nerds unite.

Yeah. No, we're here to talk about Captain America Civil War. I feel bad because Andy really wanted to talk about this. But you can't get enough because this is going to keep running the summer, I think. Maybe you guys should just make the watch a Marvel pod. What's that? Just make the watch a Marvel pod. Make the watch a Marvel pod?

Full stop. Now that you've spun it off in your own feed. I wanted to specifically have you two guys on because this is a good time to mention that if you have not seen Captain America Civil War, we are going to be talking about things that happen within it that you may or may not know about. So spoiler, ahoy. And I just wanted to ask,

first of all, like, did you guys like the movie? You know, were you in on it? Let's start with you, Sean, and then we'll go to Jason. Yeah, it feels strange to say that I loved it, but I think that I loved it. I think it was probably the most fun Marvel movie they've made, which seems strange because I think it's really hard to make four superheroes coexist within,

one movie because the origin stories are so big and the mythology is so big and they actually managed to make like 14 superheroes exist inside this movie. I think it also helped that it wasn't bogged down in a lot of like supervillain BS. There was a there is a primary villain in the movie, but for the most part the conflict is between characters that you already know that didn't get Jerry rigged into the story just because it's a new chapter. It was you already know Iron Man, you already know Captain America. There wasn't really a MacGuffin in this one. It was good. There was no like infinity stone. The MacGuffin was like William Hurt as the Secretary of State. Yeah. Like whatever he was trying to manage for the United Nations was the McGuffin. Yeah. Whatever the

Socovia Accord. But yeah, it's just it's like loose and serious at the same time, which is something that Marvel does really well as opposed to say, I don't know, D.C. Right. Jason, what did you think? I think it's the best Marvel movie. I have it Civil War Avengers and then I guess Winter Soldier. I saw it at 2.30 a.m. at the Lincoln 13 on IMAX, son. What? Walking out of the theater at 5 a.m. Why would you do that to yourself? You live in New York. You can see movies

all the time. Because I make really bad decisions, and I wanted to see it on Thursday night, and it was the only place with assigned seating IMAX. That's wild. I love it. I really enjoy it. Like Sean said, I think

structurally, it's really impressive how every character kind of had a moment in this movie. Had a line, had a scene, had a little time to say something and put their imprint on the movie. Classic Vision cooking moment. Yeah. Cooking with Vich.

Yeah. We need more paprika and like a nice vest. Yeah. He was well dressed. What did you think of Vision's clothing, John? It was nice. It was sort of like pre-millennial Tom Ford. I think it was elegant.

And his cape game is, obviously is incredible. So, Jason, I wanted to ask you, because, like, I know that you guys both are fans of, like, Spider-Man, like, in the comics and I've always enjoyed it. And this was sort of the curveball that got thrown in the middle of this movie was the appearance of Spider-Man. I kind of only thought he was going to show up, like, out of nowhere for a quick second as, or even, like, in the, after-the-credit sequins or something like that.

But he was a major part of this, like, third act of the movie. Jason, what did you think of Spider-Man's introduction? It was kind of cool how they handled his. origin story in like five seconds. Wait, Chris, you say it like Spider-Man? Like Phil? Like, Bryn's? Spider-Man.

Spider-Man. Okay. Spider-Man. Yeah, the Spider-Man. Sorry, go ahead, Jason. You know, I was, um, I found myself against all odds charmed by Tom Holland as Spider-Man. Where have we seen Tom Holland before? I think he really, I had no idea, like, who this dude was.

But, uh, I had read up on him, obviously. And like, you know, he really captured the, uh, ADD quality that Spider-Man has, the kind of like motor mouth thing that's not necessarily just quips. It's that he's like an annoying person. Uh, and he really, like, captured that over-eagerness, like, really well. I'm really down for teenage Spider-Man as opposed to like 30-year-old Spider-Man. I feel like when Logan Lerman sees this, it's going to be like when a dinosaur saw the Big Bang coming. We're just like, I'm about to get... Tom Holland is Logan Lerman's extinction level event.

You're just like there's nothing else for you, dog. Yeah, I agree with Jason completely. It's kind of amazing how obvious it is that Spider-Man should be a teenager and Toby McGuire was 26 when he was cast as Spider-Man and Andrew Garfield was 29. Yeah. And Tom Holland is 19 and he looks like he's 14. And that's the whole thing. That's the whole, the reason that Spider-Man became so iconic to teenage boys reading and

teenage girls too reading the comic book is because he's like, immensely relatable, but also not, you weren't necessarily exactly like him, but he was like your funny, annoying friend. And they perfectly nailed squeezing him into the funny, annoying friend dynamic inside the Avengers. I also just thought that they made like a lot of really good choices. Teaming him up with Downey immediately makes him seem more interesting. Putting Marissa Tomey in as Aunt May immediately makes him seem younger, cooler. It's not this like white haired Aunt May that we're used to seeing. I don't know. I think Holland was very charismatic. Um, And he's part of like a great fight sequence.

You know, like he kind of hangs with these major heroes that we've been seeing for the last five or six movies. And he seems like he belongs there. So it's amazing how well they handled it because they usually don't handle these things well. The thing about teaming him with Downey is a really good point. I think it's indicative of the difference, the way that the Rousseau's are handling this stuff and the way that Marvel in general is handling their properties now versus the way Joss Whedon was. I had plenty of affection for what Joss Whedon was doing. but I think that Whedon ultimately, this is, you know, and I'm sure I could be wrong about this,

but I think that Whedon ultimately views being a superhero as a gifted a curse, and that there was a lot of anxiety and angst about who, like, these people had about themselves and their powers. And it's like, that's very much encapsulated by Hulk, you know, whereas Hulk is like, I'm just so bad for the world. I should go as far away as possible. and now they're like we're cool you know they're all like they're at they're all at the point where they're like we're really happy to be superheroes which i know you know the whole point of the movie is them sort of trying to take stock of what that is that they're capable and the destruction that they're capable of inflicting and i think that after what everybody was sort of saying about

batman versus superman and and the sort of want and disregard for human life to have an entire superhero movie that was pretty much about superheroes paying the cost for their their transgressions was really interesting. I couldn't help but feel like cynically, Marvel was getting to have its cake you needed to, like they were now cashing in on our desire for consequences after creating a world in which there were no consequences. Yeah, there's a lot of meta moments from Spider-Man specifically

where he's sort of observing all of the ticks of comic book movies in small, and then in big, it's the same thing. It's like acknowledging what these heroes did to Socovia and New York and Washington, D.C. in this sort of like super highlight reel of destruction shows like something that you and I have talked about in the past Chris, which is like the insane violence of these movies and the destruction of American metropolis is a weird tick that they insist on. So by saying like, hey, we've gone too far here, they get to be ultra meta. I don't know that that's going to work at one more movie down the road.

Yeah. But it worked in this one. Jason, what did you think of the Daniel Bruel part and the fact that they made that guy not an evil supergey? but just like a guy who was affected by what the Avengers had done in Ultron. I mean, for me, I think he's the best Marvel movie villain yet. He unleashes this master plan on the Avengers without ever punching anyone. I think he even says at one point, like, you know, much stronger foes than me have tried to take them down and failed. And that whole idea where he's like...

really grounded, like, story that motivates his arc all the way through. It's, I really, I really enjoyed what they did with him. I thought it was great. Who's he supposed to be? Is that, is that comic book character? Barron Zemo is a character. Yeah, he, is a character. Okay.

Jason, what did you think of the, because they really did follow through with the, like, I know that, I thought like Batman versus Superman ultimately sort of pulled its punch a little bit with how in conflicts they were going to be, even though they philosophically were opposed. But this really did follow through with it throughout the entire film. What did you think about the sort of Captain America, Iron Man, tension that you saw? I've been laying this track. It's there a little bit in the Avengers. It's there in Ultron a little bit more, like in the scene where Captain America tears a log apart. And so it was, it was natural. It was like their philosophical argument was a natural outgrowth of that. Whereas like, it's like, it was,

And Batman versus Superman, it was just like, we disagree. We don't like each other out of nowhere because you destroyed a building. And, you know, I don't like you. Yeah. It was really effective. And the other thing that really stuck out to me is I hate to keep, like, killing Batman versus Superman, but the end twist when it's like, oh, Batman's not going to kill Superman because their mothers are both named Martha. That's like a moment that I hadn't actually never realized that their mothers were both named Martha.

And I was like, oh, wow. Like in a good movie, this might have worked. The end of Captain America Civil War is that version. It's the good version of using like a parental tragedy as motivation for an end fight. That final Bucky Iron Man, Captain America fight is actually like quite, it's been a while since you've seen a fight between people and you're like, ah, got it. know like who do you want to have win this like yeah and also it hurts and it's very visceral i feel like the fight scenes in every marvel movie including this one are mostly pretty bad and they're mostly sort of murky and the camera is moving too much and you can't really understand what's

happening but by focusing specifically on those three people in a small confined space they were able to make something that like felt like fight club it was you could feel the punches landing but the one problem that i have with this movie is that i really don't care about bucky barns and the Winter Soldier and him having this huge place in this constellation of very classic characters. And I find it really weird that the movie, you know, we get introduced to the Black Panther because of him. We get introduced to this whole world of Hydra because of him. We get introduced to Baron Zemo because of him.

It's this really strange use of a guy that is not like canon, so to speak. Yeah, right. I don't know. Jason, is that strange to you? Probably just because I've read the books and it was such a big deal when they were like, oh, we're bringing Bucky Barnes back. the one guy who in comics, you know, in comics the rule is nobody's ever dead,

and Bucky Barnes was the guy who had remained dead for 50 years or whatever it was. So it's not so strange to me, also because, like, that is of recent Marvel. I want to talk briefly about the Rousseau's in the filmmaking here. So this is just, like, my rant, and it's like, I know that this is trollish, because, like, what they did is very hard,

and they actually found, like, a really good, consistent tone. It's a funny movie without being corny, it's like a pretty violent movie without being unrealist like without being unnerving or anything like that it's like a really really really really good version of this movie and in a lot of ways it does all the things that we've been asking these movies to do for a long time but I just wanted to say and I'm curious you know if you guys notice this at all is that I'm really not interested in the Marvel visual aesthetic and I know that this is sort of beside the point when you're dealing with something that is essentially a corporation which is what these movies have become now because of what, you know, the movements that they have to make. But the entire movie seems like it was shot in broad daylight in an Atlanta office park. And there is literally no variance except for the snow mountain at the end of the movie of any scenes. Like there are hardly any scene shot at night. There's no, it's always a sunny day.

Everything is so brightly lit. Everybody is wearing anonymous, like, you know, unlogued black hats with mock turtle neck from that look like slightly dry fit but not really everything is so vanilla and it's really that's extends to the lighting of the movie the camera work which i know has some like born choppiness but is ultimately kind of just pick paul greenrass greengrass the money that you owe him and i find that i think it leaves me a little cult i think that one of the reasons why i'm not like emotionally invested in this stuff the way i would maybe like to be is because there's just literally no emotion in the filmmaking it's all

all just big close up master shot, big close up master shot. And it's all just the brightest most. We shot this inside of like a dentist office kind of lighting. And this is why David Fincher wets down the streets and shoots at night. And you're just like, I'm so in this movie right now when you're watching it. This is why Denny Villeneuve's movies are probably storywise, not very good, but I am convinced he is the best filmmaker because every shot is a painting. And I don't know.

Did you guys ever find yourself feeling that way at all? I'm going to reiterate my Slack comment to you, which is like you sound like a dude who sits at home with the TV sound off watching Tarkovsky and hitting a bong. Yeah, it is very cinema studies 101. But I agree with you, but I think I'm willing to sacrifice it. It's been great having you guys on the watch.

You'll never be on again. I'll be joined next week by Professor Longhair from USC film school where we'll be talking about Misenzen and Soderberg Go fuck yourself The thing about it is These movies are all made by different directors But they all have to kind of look the same

Says who Theoretically Kevin Feigy and Marvel I think that they're trying to create some sort of consistency I think like James Gunn What he was able to do with Guardians of the Galaxy Looks great Is different enough as different as I think they're willing to get.

I think he's maybe a better filmmaker than the Russo brothers. But I think that in an effort to make Avengers one, two, and three look enough like Thor 2 and Captain America 3, they have to kind of mute the palette a little bit. Now, I agree with you that it does look like in Atlanta office park, and that's kind of a bummer. Yeah, it's the flip side of what Zach Snyder does, where everything looks like someone's, like, damp copy of anime. You know what I mean? Right, right.

Where it's just like everything is colors everywhere and bullshit. But I think that there's a middle ground. Yeah, I think that there could be. I just, to me, it's not what I go there for. Like, what I go there for is basically to have fun not to be intellectually stimulated. And so great composition in a shot is meaningful, but it's not, it didn't matter to me as long as Spider-Man was done well and Spider-Man was done well. I'm waiting for Villeneuve's enemy two for the best composition. Wait, is there a movie that you like purely based?

on cinematography. I think Prisoners is a really good example of a movie that is not good, but that looks so good that I don't care. Again, it is not good. Prisoners is like a bad movie, but I'm just like, I'll watch Prisoners. If Prisoners was seven hours long, I'd have to, I would just watch it. Pretty much every Ridley Scott movie is not good, except it's amazing because it looks incredible. Do you want Ridley Scott to take a crack at Thor four?

No, I want Ridley Scott to keep making Prometheus movies until I die. Okay. I don't know, Jason, is there any part of you that wishes that David Fincher could get a crack at a Marvel movie? It would have to be the right property, like, what would it be? Like, Punisher or something? You know, like, because my theory on David Fincher is everything he does is, like, secretly a comedy, which is why it's good. They're, you know, like, Marvel's whole aesthetic is to shy away from, like, really, really strong. Oral visions.

Yeah, I'm curious to see what Scott Derrickson ends up doing with Dr. Strange. Yeah. Because he is not a great artist, but he definitely has a visual style. He's got an atmosphere and his stuff. Yeah. And it seems like Dr. Strange just basically looks like cheap Christopher Nolan.

And I think, you know, this goes back to like Ant Man with like Edward Wright, not, you know, doing, like, starting Ant Man and then jumping off of it. And Adam McKay coming on and doing a very, very like, the yeoman's job on it and kind of just wonder. And you know, and he gets very stylish with big short. Ant Man has to be a... Well, no. Peyton Reed actually. Oh, right, you're right.

My bad. McKay did the punch up. I'm so glad you're here. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't teach us that in film school. That's right. Payton Reed. The cinema of Peyton Reed.

Also, a good visual stylist, though, who had a little bit of his life sucked. I think that they just suck out the life of creative people. The Russo's shot episodes of community that look incredible. It looks like point break. Yeah. But you can't quite go there. That's the thing is like, I don't necessarily, like I'm just saying why I think a movie like Captain America can do almost every single thing right. And yet I don't walk out as some sort of evangelist.

And it partially is because I'm just like an older person. person who doesn't care about Spider-Man as much as I did 10, 15 years ago. And part of it is just because visually, it's just not that compelling of a product. Chris, who's the one filmmaker that you would want to take a crack at the Marvel universe? Swanberg. Who's the one filmmaker I'd want to take a... I would love to see... Like Vim Vendors?

Garrette Edwards do it. Which, the raid guy? Gareth Evans. Is it Evans? Edwards is doing Star Wars. Gareth Evans is the one who I would want to see. just get like a guy who knows how to have like and pick a pick a character who basically has to have a two-hour fight right he should do iron fist oh it's pretty cool yeah that would have been great

unfortunately we're not going to get that and uh iron fits is going to be on netflix and look even worse that's the other thing is at least it's not the tv shows yes that's true the tv shows to me are even more boring visually but it is what it is jason what's uh like where are we at with marvel now so like we're going into a couple of other we got strange and then guardians how make me feel excited or not excited about Infinity War Thanos baby Thanos back brolin? You're not down You're not down with a dude who's going to wield

like fantastical universe jewelry to destroy the world and It's going to require all of the superheroes of the Marvel universe to stop them If you're not excited by what's happened then I can't excite you Chris I'm excited You have no soul I love heart I got it all I just, you could come visit me in my underground layer where I only watch Bertolucci films with the sound off.

I guess the one thing that I find myself, that I'm asking myself about all of this stuff is having given myself over to all of these movies and caring as much as I can care as a 33-year-old man, I don't know what the end point is. There's this interesting thing happening where today, the X-Men, the next X-Men movie it was, it was announced that it's going to take place in the 90s, which means we're reaching a moment where X-Men is, the X-Men movie universe is going to seem like a feedback loop, where all the stories are going to start overlapping and things that they did 15 years ago

will feel like 30 years ago, but they're actually 10 years in the future. And it's going to be very confusing. And they're only going to be able to get Downey to do so many more of these movies. They're only going to be able to get Chris Evans to suit up for so many more of these movies. And they're not going to be able to hand it off completely

to Chadwick Bozeman or to Tom Holland. Tom Holland, right? And so what happens? Like they've created this phase three. Presumably there's a phase four because this movie made a huge amount of money and they're not going to stop making any money because they're good and people like them.

I mean, Downey has started to make whispers about doing Iron Man 4, but Jason, is there like a big Avengers storyline after Infinity War that they could do to reboot things? Yeah, I mean, they could, assuming that characters die and or age out and or at the end of their contracts after Infinity War, they could do, after Civil War in the comics, there was an event called Dark Rain,

which was basically bad guys run the government and superheroes like on the run. And really that's the only play they have left. I mean, Civil War was the most comics-y comic book movie yet because it perfectly played on the tropes of heroes versus heroes, which is, you know, just a mechanism you use because you can't trot out villains all the time. So really the next move is villains win. That's how I feel about this podcast. I feel like the villains won. I feel like cinema lost.

This has been really fun. I think we'll wrap it up here. Jason, thank you so much for calling in. Yep. Sean. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, Baron Zemo. I feel so weird saying this, but great job, Boranskis.

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