The Watch - Ep. 39: 'GoT,' Chance the Rapper, and Tom Hiddleston's Niche

Episode Date: May 16, 2016

Chris and Andy share their thoughts on last night's 'Game of Thrones,' Chance the Rapper's 'Coloring Book' (23:00), Tom Hiddleston's chances of becoming the new Bond (44:00), and 'Steve Jobs' (2015). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. Editor for the Ringer.com and joining me on the other line. Come and see, it's Andy Greenwald! Hey! Hey!

Look at us. I'm all on fire and I don't have any clothes on. You know, it makes a difference. You know, there are singers who strip themselves bare in the vocal booth to get like a very intimate performance. And I've always assumed that when we're not on the same coast, that's what you do. Like, who does that? Like Dave Hollister? Yeah, no, Buster Poindexter.

that's how he recorded the very Game of Thrones appropriate hot, hot, hot. No, our old pal, Jenny Lewis told me that. She recorded the Rilkeye-Lay-Lie song, I never in the buff. That's part of the Andy Greenwald podcast universe. That's a deep ref.

Don't you think there's some overlap in our podcast multiverse or no? We'll see. Look, I feel like that's a very good time to mention that there is now because the Andy Greenwald podcast has crashed onto the watch podcast feed. So it's just living uncomfortably under your arm.

We've taken you on. Thanks, thanks, boss. Andy, this is The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. You are Andy Greenwald. We're here to talk about Game of Thrones. Talked a little bit about Chance the Rappers, new tape. And maybe a little bit of night manager, a little bit of lobster, a little bit of Steve Jobs.

Andy Airplay movies are in effect. It's the thing. I love it. It's my favorite segment ever? Should I tell the listeners how you were like when we were on set for After the Thrones last week, you were just low-key pitching your own kind of segments you could do on the show just to get a little burn? Like, what were my segments?

Wasn't there one where you were just like, what if I just told people about my emotional state, like my moods or something? Wasn't that something you were saying? Chris's moods? Chris's mood board? By the way, here's why Airplane Movies is definitely a thing, because our boss at the Ringer... Just because someone else watches a movie on an airplane doesn't mean they're participating

in your activity. Chris, he tweeted it. Lots of people watch movies on airplanes, but he tweeted. He knows. He feels the movement. Look, I'm just saying he knows a good thing when he sees one. He's a wise and sagacious businessman. He is. Shout out to Bill Simmons, who was great on the watch last week.

If you missed last week's episode, a lot of prospective new co-hosts join me. None of whom have ever watched or comment. commented on a movie while flying in the air. Buddy, it's good to have you back. It's a shame we're not going to see each other this week, but we will be adding a lot of podcasts to the feed this week. I think you've got one coming this week in Andy Greenwald show, right?

Yeah, and last week I spoke to our mutual idol, Colin Farrell. Very good conversation. It was an excellent interview. Nice job with that. Thanks, buddy. Let's talk a little bit about Game of Thrones. As you guys may know. Should we say that our show is out there again this week before?

A timely release last night at midnight Pacific time. You can catch After the Thrones on HBO Go now on demand. And then tonight, I think we might be on a little earlier than I, aren't we? I don't know. I haven't checked my DVR, but we're on the TV. Check local listings for After the Thrones this evening. And Andy. Should we say that, Chris, that there was like the difference this week that I think that really helped with the addition of three key elements.

We had Mallory Rubin join us, of course. But we also had our maister, Jason Concepcion, in the house. And we availed ourselves of some props. Yeah, some sword play. There was some sword play. Andy, any lingering thoughts you wanted to share with the listeners about Game of Thrones? I mean, we've certainly chatted it up a lot, but... The TV show Game of Thrones?

Yeah, I thought, you know, we talked about it a lot on our show, but I was pretty interested in, as many people were, in that the final sequence, right, when DeNaris, you know, basically begins humming the disclosure hit from two years ago and the fire starts to burn. And all of that happens. And everyone bows to her once again and she has another God moment. And it was kind of interesting because the way I've been watching this season has really been an attempt to appreciate the scale of it. Because so many things, you know, we talked about this week as well on the show, the reunion of Sansa and John in the beginning.

and just how totally crazy that was because these are characters whose relationship we know and we understand and we've rooted for, but they have not shared the screen since... Did we figure out? Was it since the very first episode? Yeah, I think so.

Certainly the first few. I think it's the first episode. And so actually a five-year gap between them ever even sharing the screen. I mean, that's crazy. No show has ever done that. So I'm trying to basically change the way I watch things, my expectations for them,

because I feel like the show has been 10. it constantly this year. And, you know, you see DeNaris have this incredible moment where she basically, she literally sets fire to the patriarchy, right? This is a character who has had a very, very bumpy and rocky journey. And she was, you know, she's like many of the characters on the show, has been physically brutalized and brought very low. And then suddenly he's back on top again, this very dramatic way. And I wonder about our ability as viewers. And I'm going to, I'm going to take my answer off here. I want to hear what you have to say about this.

But our ability as viewers to differentiate things that need to happen for the story or things that we're tired of seeing happening or things that we want to happen, right? Because there was a lot of outcry. There has been a lot of outcry. Some earned, maybe some not earned, about the treatment of female characters on the show. And I wonder if it's all been this slow arc towards what the female characters are doing on the show now. And if our ability to appreciate that was mitigated by how long it's taken to get there. You know what I mean? Are impatience to see something just happened.

I'm not going to get my hopes up that that's what this is. Not that I think that the creators of the show are in any way trying to dedicate women, but just that I'm not counting all my everybody is in a good place eggs yet. Yeah, that's probably fair. That's probably fair. You have been watching the show, so you know that. But do you know what I mean? Like there's another thing that I was noticing where like this,

the other really interesting scene to me from this episode, from the Book of the Stranger was the, basically Tyrion's plea for pragmatism in a very, very, I was about to say, fiery place in Marine, but I guess fiery, fire was more based on Thrac. But basically that, like, yeah, he did just tell two former slaves to, like, be patient,

and he's, like, this very, very privileged non-person who is not of color telling them that. But is that sort of thing problematic as a viewer, Or is that like the show knows that he's that he's very, very, very much a privileged character saying these things. And it's kind of okay to live in that. I think it's like I think that you're supposed to think that. I don't know what you're supposed to think. But I took from that scene that Tyrion's privilege in that situation allows him the perspective

to make the kind of seven-year deal that he makes with the guys from Sabres Bay, which is the kind of deal others wouldn't make because they would be blinded by a very, just sense of vengeance, right? Right, and it doesn't de-legitimize. I mean, we're talking about fictional characters here, but it doesn't delegitimize that, that fury, that wound, that desire to write or wrong. No.

That he made that, that deal. But in fact, I think it's sort of fascinating that the show is pushing us into this place of uncomfortable compromise, right? Like that is sort of, this sounds ridiculous, because I was actually going to invoke the wire. And I do not think,

these shows are that similar, although sometimes they maybe, maybe, maybe play on the same field a little bit. But like, there's no, what is the good answer in Marine, right? Like, what's the, what's the best possible scenario here? Yeah, and I think also, I like the fact that it's, go ahead. No, you're alluding to the idea of John and Sanzah getting back to, like, reuniting and this emotional moment and probably, and I know you talked about this on the show, but just like the idea that the Game of Thrones does something that very few shows have ever done, which is actually give you it actually is time lapse i mean you've been watching this these people grow up you've been watching them go on these divergent paths and now they've crisscrossed again and because

you were so aware of where these people are geographically and emotionally and in their in their heroes journeys like to see them cross back over again is so meaningful and i also thought about all the how unique the show is in terms of its prehistory so the idea that even if we've only ever seen Sanzah and John together like once before this. There's like an entire, there are reams of Sanza and John interactions, I'm sure, in the books that we don't know, like, you know what I mean? That lead up to that. And so how meaningful it is for people to see that if they've been book readers too. That's particularly, that's really interesting.

And just every everything that happens on this show with the alliances and the betrayals having this sort of historical precedent in the books is kind of fascinating to watch it play out. even if you're not a book reader. Yeah, there's... Yeah, because, I mean, we don't even need to say anymore that we're not book readers, right? There's... I just think that,

I mean, what you're saying gets back to what I, to what I, my original point before I got sidetracked and marine, like many, many empires have tended to do, I guess, which is just like, I don't think, I still, I know I said this a few weeks ago,

but I feel like we are not adjusted in terms of how we accept and enjoy story. We're not adjusted to this, just the sheer magnitude of it. You know, I think, that if we're watching it with eyes that are used to binge watching a show or a limited series or a show that, you know, has like Empire, which has basically done the same amount of plot

of all of the Game of Thrones novels in two seasons, that, you know, there's so much still to work out and, you know, in confidence. I think what maybe you're hinting at, you're hinting at something too that's that I've been thinking about, which is that Game of Thrones has kind of turned into a chamber. piece like it's it's it's very it's a very interior two-hander conversations show right now and you think about anything from I don't know I mean you even think about something like Fargo that has so much and then this happens and then this happens and people are moving from location and a location I mean think about how many it's a very philosophical show right now a lot of these conversations

are about worldview and the nature of pretty big questions like justice or how to live a just or right life. And you think about all the sparrow scenes. You think about all these scenes that Tyrion's been having in these different rooms. Even think about like what DeNaris was talking about with the cows before she left with them all on fire. These are pretty like significant questions. So it's not surprising to me that it's not surprising to me that even though it's about

quote unquote tits and dragons according to Ian McShane, it winds up causing this kind of debate. because a lot of what, like, 75% of the show is conversations about these topics. Yeah, and you know what? I'm also realizing that what we're doing is we're kind of circling back to the conversation we had about TV two weeks ago just in terms of how we're still sorting out how to, how to process it. Because as much as I'm trying to investigate or even articulate this argument that the expanse of the show is challenging the ways that I process it because I'm trying to be patient

in a way I'm not usually patient. I am also a great defender in the episode as a standalone art form. And so what's interesting to me about the show is that it's proving that events that happened in season one, season two, season four that, you know, maybe in my recaps I took issue with, we're not, we're not institutionally forgotten, you know, and we'll have some significance later down the line. Like the issue, I will begin to have much more serious issues, quote unquote, with Ramsey's behavior if they just continue to pile up unanswered for well he well you know he sits

in winterfell like there needs to be some engagement but the thing as the show is taught is that there will be engagement and reckoning and whatever that means can i ask you a quick question but but but no but just but just to say like as someone who believes in the episode is a standalone thing i i should be i'm realizing i should be more um in tune with the idea that if something happened in episode season four episode three then that happened in episode four season three and there's a worthwhile discussion around that episode that doesn't need to take into effect into consideration season seven you know however many years in the future oh yeah i have ramsie question but you know bring it bring it bring i love talking about that was the same great character he stabbed osha with the same

knife he kept peeling fruit ruth right do you feel like that was cross cross contamination that's not the gross is that are you asking if that's kosher ask a jewish person do you want me to do you want me to get a rabbinical study to weigh in on that yeah Can you go bless Ramsey's pairing knife? I mean, please, no, tell me where you were going with this question. I have no idea. I have no idea. I just thought it was really interesting.

Do you feel like he should have had a secondary neck stabbing knife? Well, I thought that he pulled, I thought she went for the pairing knife and he had a secret knife. And then I was like, but did he go back to the pairing knife or did he use the neck knife to go to the pair? It was just like a real sleight of hand. And if so. Oh. Like, was he... I don't know.

It just says a lot about him. It says a lot about him. Well, he has to... Okay, to be clear, there are two knives in the scene. One for meat and one for dairy. Okay? That's how kosher law is basically followed. So your question, the thing that is troubling you most at this point at season six,

and I just want to be clear, you can tell me if I'm misreading you here. Is that after OSHA reaches for the... fruit knife. And Ramsey kills her with the killing knife. He resumes the fruit eating with the killing night. Yeah, that seemed weird. So what you're asking for is a job with a different knife? Are you

Emily Post? Are you worried about where the soup spoon is next to the corpse? That seemed like a lovely small plate setup he had out there. Like somebody came out with some lovely, like an olives and a charcutory. The charcutory was probably made of other people. And then

he was like messing up the knife. And I hate that. You've seen me, we've been at gatherings in which cheese is shared. And I do think that you should, some people don't like goat cheese. You know what I mean? Some people only like sharp cheddars. Some people love a brie, but you've got to keep the knives separate. I feel like cheese, cheeses should be separate.

Do you know what like a real legit pet peeve of mine is, if we're really talking about this? It's like you lay out a nice, like a harder cheese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like it's like a cheddar or like a gutta or something. Like Gouda with like some caramelized crystals in it. Yeah. Oh, exactly. You get that little crunchy.

Right. So, and you put out with it intentionally one of them, one of them cheese scrapers. So like run along the top. Yeah. So like you get the nice thin and you can lay that on a salami. Or the flat surface, you know, that maximizes the sort of crunchy crystal feeling, you know. And then some, some, let's just call them what they're like some wildling, some animal, some brute comes to your party, takes the cheese scraper and just starts hacking at the cheese as if that was just some. some sort of common OSHA stabbing knife.

You know what I mean? And taking chunks of the cheese, you were recommending to scrape. Yeah. Like, that's where my head is at right now in this conversation. Either way.

Ramsey. Did our podcast just get canceled while I was saying that? Like, was that the end? Okay, so did you have anything else you wanted to say about Thrones before we move on? I was really hoping you were going to say, geez. I got to be honest with you. Yeah, the one other thing that I thought was kind of interesting. about this week's episode that we didn't get to on After the Thrones was the previous week in three, right?

You and I were both like remarking on how fast things were moving. I think that's definitely the case of the season. Yeah, they felt like they had turned a corner and that there was like a decline going, not a decline in quality, but like they were picking up speed. Yeah. Right. And what, you know, and we both, and the thing that was really striking was like John appeared to piece out, of the Knights Watch completely, you know, and he gave his game-worn life-dead jersey to Ed.

And similarly, Aria just sort of had a training montage and seemed to basically level up. We got to talk about how fucking funny it is that John is like, my night's watch is ended, or my watch is end or whatever. And he's like, deuces. And then he just goes into another room at Castle Black. It's like, that's your big exit dog? You just went into another room? This is the point.

That's exactly the point I'm making. And that was really, well, it's very funny, but it was also very interesting in the same way that Aria was still there, or still there, basically. So the thing that I find really interesting about this is... That's like getting in a fight with your wife and then not being able to find your keys so you can't storm out. She's like, I'm going in this other room. You think about what you've done. Just to be clear, the fight is over cheese, right? And like how the cheese has just been sliced. Yeah, the fight is over using the neck stabber with for your...

for your peeling of fruit. The body on the floor notwithstanding. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, the revelation, especially that John is just still there, you know, making soup jokes with Sansa in the same place that he stormed out of. I thought it was kind of interesting in an episode that really was about Tyrion trying to clean up a mess,

you know, because basically DeNaris only makes drop the mic moments. That's what I was saying. That's what I was saying after the Thrones, the Rondo moments. Right. And so and so the fact that like there was a sort of amazing almost, it's not satire, but it's like there's, where is there to go? How do these people actually live when they're not fighting or burning people? Like you have to, the rest of life happens in these middle moments and it was kind of interesting

the way for all, you know, for as much as we want characters to go storming out of places, where do they go? They're stuck. And the show is as much about that as anything else. and that is a dramatically tougher cell, but I thought it was pretty clever the way it was presented this week. All right, Andy, before we get on to Chance the rapper, let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

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I'm only so-so on Chance the Rapper, and then I had to deal with like three days of you talking about how he's the greatest artist in Miles Davis. To be clear, I didn't say I was so-so. I said I was hard out. That's right. I don't know the last time I've made such a humiliating mistake about, I mean, because generally I'm just always right culturally. But this one, Chris, I own this mistake. It was blasphemy. I will be apologizing for it until I'm ultra-light beaming.

I was wrong. Really wrong. This dude is the truth. This dude is the prince who was promised. The mixtape is called Coloring Book. It came out last. Thursday night, I think, right, like Friday morning. It is a 14-track soul gospel rap, like, explosion featuring Young Thug, Little Yadi. I was about to say, Little Thottie. Definitely lead with Lil Yadi on a record with Justin Bieber and Kanye. Besides Bodie.

Jeremiah, Justin Bieber's on this piece, Jay Electronic of Future. The Chicago Children's Choir and Kanye West. That's true. In that order. Chris, this record is so good and it's so moving and warm and it's joyful. Like, that's the thing that I find so incredibly powerful about this record and listening to it. Like, last week, as you know, I was in your town and we were taping our show. And on Friday, I was on my way.

I was walking over to the studio. It was early, early morning. and a little jet lagged. And I was thinking about how I was going to, like, show up, and then I was going to engage you in a conversation just to be like, why haven't they invented something for mornings that make you feel better? Like, not coffee, but like something that could just kind of make you feel better

that I know I realize I'm sounding like I'm asking you to prescribe me serious drugs. But at that moment, I hit play on all we got, the first track on the Chance record with Kanye in the aforementioned Chicago Children's Choir. and and I swear the good word swelled in my chest and I felt the goodness that I wanted to feel. I felt elevated. I felt so happy about the world.

Thanks to this dude. And it was legal. This dude makes religion sound fantastic. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know if I've encountered that sort of relationship to something that I don't have in art that makes me envious of having it in that way. You know, when we listen to clips records, I would be like, boy, it sure sounds exciting to be a cocaine dealer, but I wasn't like, I'd kind of be interested in studying cocaine dealing.

But I listened to Chance talk about his life, and he loves being a Christian. And I was like, that sounds interesting. Maybe that's something to look into. And I did not expect I would ever say that. I didn't expect you would say that either. I know. I'm really moved by this record. I have to say, my favorite parts of this record are the saddest.

And I don't really like, I think that it, because same. drugs and summer friends are my two favorite songs. Yeah. And I still, yeah, I don't really go to music for joy. I don't really know. Maybe it's Adahondia. Is that what they call it when you can't really experience joy? Anedonia.

Adonia, is that right? Did Charlie Kaufman make a movie about that yet? All of them? It's one of my favorite Blink 182 songs. It's just interesting to hear you talk about it because you take something. I feel like this is the, the, joyful parts of this record are something that have been present with Chants for a while, whether it's from the Donnie Trumpet record he put out last year, even parts of acid rap and

some of his guest appearances. But I just feel like it could be a product of just what I've been listening to recently, which is mostly like Radiohead and James Blake. Oh my God. Are you okay? Yeah. But I think that the things on this record that I responded to most deeply and same drugs is one of the most articulate songs, the most efficiently articulate songs about getting older in a bad way where there's these two characters in this song who have grown apart precisely because they've started doing different drugs than one another. And it's just such a moving, sad look at being in your mid to late 20s and, you know, summer, summer friends is like the same kind of thing, this kind of melancholy.

moving out of your young 20s into a more serious or melancholy time. But what makes him truly a great artist, I think, is if you look at, Summer Friends absolutely works as a melancholy ode to maturity. But it's also about violence in Chicago. And it is about both those things at once. You know, and there's that part in the first verse where he talks about how, like, we used to play outside in summers and then we can't play outside anymore. And this prevailing sense of loss because he's talking about his own lost youth, but then he's also talking about an entire generation of people in a major American city who are losing youth period. And like his ability to go from one to the other, that's basically what this

record is to me in the most exciting way because he's, you know, he's connecting dots between things that are not necessarily obvious, but make, make total sense. You know, put Kanye West with a children's choir, put, get Justin Bieber, but put him on a track with this relatively, to me, relatively obscure Chicago rapper Tokyo, and have them sing about, like, how they miss dancing at the roller ring. You know, it's using people in very surprising ways. I mean, Future is on that song, Smoke Break. And the song is basically being like, we can't do drugs anymore.

We have a child. And Future is on this, on this song. And those, that isn't, in my experience with future, that's not a reservation he's often expressed. Right. You know, um, it, it, it, it, takes such talent and charisma to to throw a party like this and not be drowned out by all the voices that he invites over and it's completely this this guy's this it's completely chances

vision and i'm just astounded by it and especially you know i don't we can have many nice things at once even though it seems like in music we can only have nice things literally this month um but i just you know i i i can't imagine i went to sleep listening to this record on Thursday and I woke up being like, I can't imagine anyone who likes rap music being like, oh, I can't wait to put on the Drake record and hear about how lonely it is to be incredibly rich in Canada. That album is so, it's such a closed circuit. We talked about it. There are things on it that I really like, but this entire record is the sound of opening your windows. And that's very relevant at a time when it's still 48 degrees in New York City. But it's, I was really,

you can tell, because I'm losing, I'm gaining my religion here. But I was just, very moved by this record. Yeah, I mean, I love it. I do want to talk a little bit about this more generally, which is just based on this tweet I saw from this guy, Nathan Hubbard, who Bill's had on his show before, I think he was one of Bill's buddies and he works at Twitter and he used to be one of the, he was the CEO for Ticketmaster. And he had tweeted something over the weekend that I thought was interesting. It was like, I really like the Adele album. This is just yesterday. Still, it's amazing how quickly it's faded as culturally significant after coming out of the gate so quickly. And I forgot the Adele album had come out, you know?

And for somebody like Adele, I don't know that it matters as much because she's going to be fine either way. I mean, Adele has fans and Adele's going to do a very successful tour. But in this kind of churn, how does somebody like chance make sure that, you know, to borrow a phrase that you just use that to make sure that the windows don't close on him, you know? I think that I think it's a really good question. And I don't think it's doing anybody a service, honestly, to be dropping all these major releases in such a short time frame. You know, we, and by the way, we are going to talk about the radio head record. I actually, I'm going to take a page from Nathan Hubbard's tweet book and be like, I would rather talk about it with you.

I think maybe next week because I want more time with it. I don't want to have a knee-jerk reaction to it. And I kind of want to spend a, you know, just sink into it a little bit more, even though so far I don't find it that welcoming. But I think the interesting thing about Chance is that he is so completely removed from this cycle in this industry. You know, so much on this record is about how he's not on a label and he refuses to be on one. And he's not. You know, he's never sold his music. Counterpoint.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Apple clearly has paid him quite a bit of money for this. And I think that's worked out really well because they have the exclusive for this. but but um he he seems to have a creativity and it seems to be on such a hot streak by the way our friend tom brian wrote about it at stereo gum and he wrote about him being in this bliss bubble of new parenthood and i thought it was a really nice piece and i would direct people to to check it out um he's just in this moment that it does not feel constrained by this week you know what i mean like i feel like there's something happening that he's doing and he's clearly very very productive and

probably too productive because he was like hospitalized with pneumonia the other day. It doesn't. I guess what I'm saying is like Beyonce's lemonade was coordinated to a T, you know, to emerge at the exact moment, to have the HBO special to hit at a certain time to match up with the tour. That was the window that it was specifically genetically designed to hit. Whereas this is here now, but I feel like it's going to bubble and percolate. Like these songs are going to play all summer.

I just think that, but maybe that's just because I love it. I don't even know what that means anymore. You know what I mean? Like I don't know, I don't actually really have like a feel for what stuff felt like a year and a half ago before this stuff started like this sort of started happening with these surprise releases. And just the compression, I kind of mystifies me about how this is happening. It doesn't seem like it's smart, but I guess since nothing else was working, the music industry has to try something. But it didn't seem like this is smart. You wouldn't do this.

they're not going to put out three other really big movies on the same day as Star Wars or even very close to Star Wars. It just makes more sense to spread things out a little bit. But there's going to be a superhero movie every week this summer. But there's not. There's not. But we've had the same conversation. Remember last year when it was June and we were like, did age of Ultron come out this year?

Yeah. Because we were already so past it. I know. And I think that that's interesting that you should bring that up because maybe it's about the long-term appreciation of popular culture and the age of information is just like an incredibly complicated nuanced discussion but it's it's definitely something we're feeling across mediums whether it's film television or music that the sensation like the the hit of getting something and immediately sort of appreciating it but not really living with it very long and then

sort of drifting in and out of consciousness with with this stuff is is definitely a modern phenomenon. I guess I would bring it back to views. And the thing about views, the Drake record, is that it is, you know, in an airless, in some ways, immaculate distillation of his aesthetic. You know, it's too long, but it is absolutely every studied and considered an absolutely Drake, every inch of it. And that was the window for Drake to return and do

Drake things and Lemonade was the opportunity for Beyonce to do Beyonce things, right? The thing about the chance record is that it bubbles with all this positivity and possibility. And I don't even know what a chance thing is. Maybe it's because he's at a younger place in his career, but I don't know what a chance thing is other than it's exciting. So that feels more limitless to me. So you think for a new artist, it's like an exciting time to get on the treadmill, but for the older artists, it's a little bit more precarious. But it's also maybe it's because artists need to, and maybe it was ever thus, right?

That artists do need to come with something bright, fresh, or new to get to move the needle. Obviously, the needle is harder to move these days. But for as much as people like the Adele record and like her personally, and you and I think she's a delight, especially when she's doing carpal karaoke or whatever, that record was very appealing to people who like Adele records. And I'm not really that person.

And so it's almost for me, like you were saying, it's almost as if it never came out because it was just a reminder that Adele is Adele doing Adele things. You know, and that might be something that differentiates it a little bit. And that's why, you know, and this is the pre-conversation because I need to spend more time with it. But I feel pretty disappointed. with the Radiohead album because obviously they don't need to do anything to validate their artistic

existence and they've done everything. And few bands are a better example of why it's worth chasing your muse wherever it goes, considering what they've done over the last 20 years. But I did want, I did want it. I did want something else, you know, especially when we heard that single with the strings, I was like, maybe what's going to be interesting about this record is they're going to let warmth back in or empathy back in. into the machine and the record is so icy. It's so, so, so icy. No Gucci main, but it is. I feel like you could make an argument that it's an appropriate,

I mean, just the same way, I don't know, I wouldn't make too big of a connection between Drake's and Moon Shepool, but between views and Moon Shepool. But I do think that there's an argument to be made that it is not a warm and empathetic time and that the music kind of. I agree with that. But I think that that's why what's so amazing to me about Chance is that he's making a case for what he's doing in this moment.

to bring it full circle to summer friends. I mean, summer friends sounds like that moment at the barbecue when the sun has set, but it's still a little bit light and you're forcing the issue. And you're going to stay out just a little bit longer. And that's like a beautiful, universal thing. And it makes me think of a very happy, have a very happy timer experience. But then you listen to the lyrics and he's talking about kids who will never get to do that. And he's found a different way to articulate it that makes me pay attention more.

And when Radiohead name a song, I guess I, they changed the name of it, but this song was originally called Silent Spring, you know, which is the landmark book about environmentalism. And it's basically a song with Tommy York being like, you are killing the trees. It's just basically like a like a laurax power ballot. I'm like I know, you know. It's like I dude, yeah, we are. That sucks.

Like that's my, that was my takeaway from that song. It didn't, it didn't touch me emotionally to make me want to go plant more trees in the same way that like, Dance makes me want to like personally, personally, like, go to church and save Chicago if I could. Like, that's the difference. Okay. All right. Well, do you what? Chris, how many trees have you planted this week?

Okay, Rachel Carson, you tell me. No, I just, I think that it's an interesting, it's ironic that I'm out here. Well, it's been pretty great out here, but it's ironic that like maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's like when you're out and it's the same day every day and it's beautiful and everybody's in their car and stuff like that. you kind of have a longing for a darker, edgier, more confrontational or whatever sound, whereas if you're in New York and it's kind of like claustrophobic and gray, you want something that speaks in pinks and oranges and warmth. I feel like what you just said about in L.A.,

like you just gave the reason for why the movie Crash exists. You're like, I just want to feel something. I just want us to get out of our cars. It's more like falling down, isn't it? Dude, I can feel that. What if, what, I'm trying to imagine, like, what a Drake song about, about planting trees would be like. Like, he would be real jealous of someone planted the wrong kind of tree.

Yeah. You know, I, I'm trying to figure out a better way to articulate that. Like, I still haven't gotten over the fact that I thought too good. When I was on the plane, when I was just, I just, just swimming in a moon-shaped pool of Chardonnay. And I was listening to Too Good, the song with Rihanna. And I was like, this song is so beautiful. and warm and then I listened to it when's the last time you like when's the last time you like dark music like when's the last time you're saying he's too good for his girlfriend he's saying he's

too good for riana it's like let me tell you something let me tell you something chaining tatum you're not too good for riana um when's the last time i like what uh like dark edgy music wow you calling me you soft no i'm not calling you soft i'm just i just want to set the stage here for people so they understand like this is a new thing for you to be like shit has to be empathetic. She has to be warm. I need to feel... I wrote a book about emo.

I don't know if it's new. I mean... That can be pretty... That can be pretty dower, though. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I... It's not all celebration rock, you know? No, it's true.

But, you know, you and I, we often agree on this podcast about many things, but I couldn't go down the road with you with James Blake. Like, you talked it up to me and I love the idea of it. And, you know, I even came around on the leftovers, so I thought it was possible. Basically the same thing. They are. I mean, he's on, that's the first season

was soundtracked by that dude. And I, I fired it up and I saved it to Spotify. And I got on the plane and I started drinking and I just like, hardest to pass. I love that. Like, the only way you experience culture is through Chardonnay and Air Flight,

air travel. The only way I do anything is through Chardonnay and Air Force. All right. Well, that's as good of a segue as any. I want to start talking about movies a little bit. So this weekend. I want to put a pin in that thing, though. I want to think about my edgier days, then we'll get back to it.

Well, we can talk about it more of a career-spanning retrospective for you. Good, good point. So this weekend I watch High Rise, which is the new film from Ben Wheatley. It's an adaption of J.G. Ballard's novel starring Tom Hiddleston, and the always lovely Sienna Miller. Santa Miller, always in movies where I'm like, oh, Sienna Miller. Yep, you mean like, burnt? Yes. And watching this movie.

It's a very, it kind of reminds me a lot of the works of Alex Cox, which people may, may remember directed Repo Man, but also directed a couple of very strange films like Straight to Hell and Walker, which was about, which started Ed Harris as a guy trying to take over Texas. I know it's a historical figure. I just can't think of who it is at the top of the top of my head. William Walker, I think of the name was. And Straight to Hell is this like weird dystopian western than he made. And it's got the same sense of like anarchic, crazy edge and the same problems with pacing. And, you know, you get two thirds into the movie and you're like, this is awesome. This is like the new clockwork orange.

And then you're like, oh, my God, there's another 50 minutes left. And it's just a very interesting film. It's hard for me to say, like, I recommend it because it's just like violence and orgies for two hours. But I liked it. Go on. I liked it. The thing that's interesting about it is that. Tom Hiddleston, isn't it?

Tom Hiddleston, I want to hear your opinions on Tom Hiddleston, because this guy is getting like early McConaughey breaks in terms of just like, they're just lining up to give him parts. And in the last couple of years, he has been in The Avengers. He has gotten his own two BBC shows. He was in The Hollow Crown, and now he's in Night Manager. I don't know if that was, that's BBC, British television shows, and now it's on AMC. and he's excellent in night manager he's been in

a Jim Jarmish vampire movie he is Oh yeah he was good in that Only lovers left alive He's in high rise in which he is And now The British gambling houses British betting houses

Have closed betting On him being the next bond And he apparently met with Sam Mendez and Barbara broccoli And it will be a surprise If he is not the next bond And in all of these films Whether he is playing a vampire

whether he is a decadent bacchanalian guy living in a 1970s high density living situation in England, whether he is Loki, whether he is

a John La Cerey protagonist. He's just always the same. And it's really interesting to watch people be like, I need some Hiddleston in my story. Because to me it's like, in my stories. I know that people like Tom Hiddleston.

and I'm sure he adds some commercial value to a film. But isn't it odd that this guy is just now in everything? Yes. Well, let's unpack it. Because there is definitely, look, it is, we'd like to joke about how to our minds, like social media engagement from people who make art or storytellers, whatever, is, I think it's inessential. Like, I don't see to think that it moves the needle one way or another,

but casting directors, for example, really do look at people's Twitter pages. Like, that's true. And if they're casting like a small part on a sitcom and that's sort of a, it's a pick-um, they will pick the person with 2,000 followers over the person with 600 followers or no Twitter account.

They will do that. And similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if people, if there's someone in a casting office, if there's some, like, you know, millennial whisperer at the casting office who's like, well, guess who's really popping off on, on, on, Giffy, right?

Like, who's really got the gifts going this week? Who's memeable? And I didn't know that was happening. Like, I thought Hittleston, because here's the other thing. Like, villains are always the best parts of blockbusters are almost always. And so, yeah, he was the best thing in Thor because he was playing against, you know, a character who is essentially a block of wood. No shots at Hemsworth.

Like, that's the part. And so he gets to have all the fun. So, but even so, I was caught flat-footed that there was this, there was, this narrative that he was the best thing in all of Marvel, like, that he was so delightful and wicked. Didn't they reconstruct Ultron to include more of him? Well, they recon, I mean, definitely, I don't know if, I mean, Loki was the villain in Avengers number one, the comic book from the 60s, so he probably was in the mix for when they were making the movie, but I can't imagine they wouldn't have gone in a different direction if they hadn't

liked him so much in Thor and, you know, just wanting to get him into as many of these things as possible. so that definitely fuels it and my take I haven't seen him as much as you have I haven't seen all the things you've said the reason I like him in the night manager is because I think it was an interesting use of him doing those things that he does

but having them be sort of winsome and mildly heroic as opposed to you know gimlet-eyed and cynical but well it kind of I think it would be a disastrous idea to cast him as bonds it kind of ties into what you were saying with music right where you were saying It's not, you're not really in the lane right now to hear James Blake and Radiohead and Drake be incredibly alienated from modern life.

We've gone through a couple of years of very dark versions of traditional heroes. So Daniel Craig is like this scarred alcoholic bond. I think everyone's exhausted about that. Batman being this raspy voiced psychopath. And I think that Hittleston comes along at a time. when people are pivoting a little bit towards brighter, poppier, more friendly, more polite heroes. And you can see that in Captain America Civil War, where it's like, even though they're discussing like government oversight and the deaths of millions of people, everybody in that movie looks good, is fun. It's a movie without a villain very purposely.

even Daniel Bruill, it's like, oh, I did this because, you know, because my wife and kids were killed. I was like, oh, okay, so you're not just a psychopath like the Joker, you know? And everybody, it's brightly lit and friendly and it's welcoming. And Hilsson is kind of a perfect avatar for that, I guess.

And if he was Bond, it would be a new version of Bond. It would be the most polite, fun bond since Roger Moore, probably. Well, that's an interesting point. And I would like that. I would rather that. I just feel like he's, I mean, I, I think he's sort of stringy, like, not just physically. Like, I just don't know if he has the, like, the full weight of charisma.

Like, I would rather have a charming bond. I'm looking over, like, the people who are even in Ladbrook's bedding before they, they froze it. And it's crazy how they just list literally everyone who speaks English and is a man at a certain point. Like, but I'm looking at this list. And for as much as there seem to be endless number. of British actors and all of them are currently on American television in one form or another. The list of people who could fill

this role are pretty small. Especially once you get past Idriselba, who I think everyone, a lot of people wanted, and then the world seems to have moved away from, or maybe he doesn't want it. But Tom Hardy is there, and that makes sense. But the other names on your, like, Fastbender would be amazing, but he doesn't want to

do that, and I hope he doesn't. But then you look at this, like... Fastbender's too busy doing getting that Assassin's Creed money. Yeah, exactly. But he doesn't want. doesn't play video games. This list has Jeremy Renner on it, Chris. Ladbrooks, is that because of us? Yeah, I put in three.

I put in a couple bets for Redder. Because I get why, like, even though it's ridiculous, why, like, Nikolai Costa Waldow is on here, or Orlando Bloom or Kid Harrington, but, you know, Renner is on this list. Maybe it's just because he's the franchise eater. Maybe he's been doing a lot of house flipping in England. He's been flipping manners.

Flipping appfee's The truth is Here's the truth He would get cast And then he would show up on day one And realize that his script said that he was 006 Yeah, I know

And that like 007 was And you're here to hand sounds You're actually the new Miss Money Penny You're supposed to just hand Tom Hiddleston his coat No, but that Daniel Craig actually refuses to quit Once he found out who he was replaced with That's right

That's right In full mission impossible That's it's interesting I mean I guess he's very popular and or whatever popular means these days, right? Like, because omnipresent is kind of the same thing as popular at this point. Yeah. Chris Pratt's a good example of that. Very charming guy.

Very charming, but he's also a very specific thing that is appealing that you can plug into a lot of different holes, right? Like, he is the perfect, bendable, charming, self-deprecating, but physically legitimate action figure to stick into these modern ten-pole movies. He's the PG-13 action hero. He's a perfect PG-13 action. whereas I don't what is I mean what is what do you think

what do you think Tom Hiddleston wants to do then we can move on what is Tom Hiddlest just mind read for a second I don't know I think that guy wants to look really good in a suit yeah you know what else he's good at billowy linen shirts

and he says quite right that's my takeaway from the night manager just a lot of billowy shirts I like night manager I do too but I'm just saying that's my if you were if you were playing like a Rorschach test game with me and you held up a card that's a night manager I would

a billowy linen. Yeah, you got to see, I mean, you're not going to see high rise because everything about it would offend your sensibilities. But if you want to see that guy doing some different stuff, but still being essentially likable and good, even though he's trying his hardest to be like a dirt bag. It's pretty interesting to watch the tension there. Can we pivot before we go to a little hashtag airplane movie? Sure, man. Floor is yours. Because here's why Chris isn't feeling this segment.

because I'm in a mind read. I feel like our listeners deserve to know why. I think it's because you are a avid and skilled sailor on the good ship of culture. Like you hoist the mainsail. You know what I mean? Like you go to the arc light. You put in work at the Cinerama Dome. Like you see the movies.

You do the homework. And your reward for that is having a podcast partner who doesn't do the work, who's just jet-setting across the country, seeing things 15 months late, and then acting like he invented fire. And I get that, and I apologize for that. But I didn't invent fire on my flight to L.A. last week. I witnessed fire.

Okay? I was Prometheus peeking through the gates of Mount Olympus when I saw a film called Steve Jobs. I've been excited for this tape, which I avoided. Because this is not a take that many people share, but you and I share it. Yeah, man.

Listen, I'm not a Sorkin guy. I usually don't like Sorkin, and I was really convinced that I was going to hate this movie because I bought the hype, the negative hype. This movie was great. This movie, I mean, this is not the Chardonnay talking, because I was really trying to stick to water on the flight out. This movie just killed me, and here's why. And then you can, you've been waiting over a year to talk about this movie, so I want you to talk about it. But I want to say, the reason I think this might be my favorite Sorkan entertainment. ever, is because this was an incredible act of creation.

There was no story there. And he just took this raw horror from this, frankly, not good biography of Steve Jobs that Walter Isaacson wrote and crafted it, banged his brain hammer until the metal was shaped into this almost like immaculate, almost worthy of the Apple branding construction of these three moments before the three product launches. and then instead of an ion battery, putting this relationship with his daughter into it. And as someone who has a relationship with a daughter,

it just destroyed me. I love this movie, and I want you to tell me why I'm right. I mean, I think a lot of people thought that the first act of the movie was great. The third act was really saccharin, and the second act was whatever. I actually watched it recently,

because when you mentioned it, I was like, I wonder if that holds up at all. Because I just genuinely really like Aaron Sorkin, just because of the dialogue. I just, I understand why some people have issues with him and it. I totally get it. It's just that I don't think a lot of people write like him. And it's just always really fun to watch actors rise to the occasion.

I still, I think the best thing he's done is probably social network, although the thing I love the most probably is Sports Night, you know, because it hit me like right at the right time. I had never seen, you know, I'd never seen a show like that when I saw Sports Night. But the... Not since Ben's. Benson, had you seen a show with that much Robert Guillain? The amount of...

My dude is like sort of the morning in the second act. Like, he has got so much shit going on. He's got like the different, like, emotional range that he has to be. And I'm sort of saying he and I mean Sorkin, but I also mean Fastbender because I cannot imagine... I think he probably, in retrospect, should have won best actor last year. Yes. The fact that it's such like a physical performance, but only ever talking and walking. and the different emotional ranges he has to hit in all the confrontations of the second act

with Catherine Waterson and Jeff Daniels and Seth Rogan and Kate Winslet and all the people he's fighting with it once in different ways about different things is so impressive. I just thought it was like, and it's captivating. Once you step away from the idea of this being any kind of historical document and once you accept the fact that it's basically a hagiography about quote unquote great men, even though there are notes in it that are like, you didn't design the Apple, you're basically a bad person to your daughter

for the first 10 years of her life. You do this, you do that. Like, it's pretty, there's stuff about him that's bad is in there. But you just have to understand that these things are fictionalized versions. And maybe they could have done a better idea. They could have done a better job

positioning the film, I think. Basing it off of Walter Isaacson and coming out so soon after his passing, I mean, relatively soon after. his passing and you know doing it the way they did it as if it was some sort of realistic portrayal of him it's closer to uh the todd haynes bob dillon movie than it is to yes oh that's a great comparison than it is to some sort of historically accurate by a bi what's that that's i'm not there yeah i'm not there um it has more to do with that than it does with any kind of like with

like walk the line or something like that yes and i completely agree with that and that's i think why I liked it so much because the thing that often grates with me about Sorkin is the theatricality, the artificiality of it, because a Sorkin script is about, you know, dazzling word volleys. It's like being at center court at Wimbledon. And what often interests Sorken, though, if you look at something in the newsroom, is he wants to use perfect, beautiful language to fix a broken world, you know? And that collision, especially in something like the newsroom, just annoys the hell out of me. It really bothers me.

what I loved about this movie was that it gave in completely to its artificiality and to its convention. It's essentially, it's a play. It's a walking and talking play in three acts. And instead of being put off by his deep belief in artificiality, I was moved by it because this entire film is an artificial construction of such imagination and skill and intelligence that it holds together. even in the face of the you know the the sort of the critical eye of reality trying to bore into it at any moment this I don't care if any of these things happen

because by combining them the way that that he did and Fast Bender did and Danny Boyle did it has the weight of emotional truth and it has something deeper to say about people in their relationships and actually achieves the kind of emotional penetration that I find usually his stuff doesn't his stuff usually leaves me very cold it's a fairy tale it seems so

it's a fairy tale it's a fairy tale it's a fairy tale about American ingenuity. It's a fairy tale about fatherhood that you can redeem yourself from certain things. I mean, I just think that you have to see it for what it is. Yeah, I completely agree. I think that it is right for reclassification and revisitation. I think, I hope that people will think very highly of it

at some point in the future when it is not you know, everything, the movie was basically tarnished from the beginning because it was so directly implicated in the Sony hack and so all the conversations about what it was and what it wasn't and the people who refused the different casting things and all the vibe about it with the Danny Boyle was a second choice because Fincher didn't want to do it and Aspender was the second choice was Christian

Bail or Leo didn't want to do it yeah which is really funny to me because those guys pride themselves on such like oh I lost a thousand pounds or I ate a bear or a bear ate me or whatever and it's like what if you but like you guys get some negative feedback about a role before you do it and you back off I mean I understand why they got the negative feedback if I was Steve Jobs's wife, I might not want that movie to come out either. Maybe I don't want a movie about that's not an accurate depiction of his life. Exactly. And I totally get that. And that's, you know, often when I see movies, but especially if they're biopics are based on reality. I, you know, like everyone, I definitely then will finish the movie and then fire up the old Wikipedia machine or the old

Google and be like, oh, that's interesting. Oh, that wasn't quite right. Oh, that person was real. I didn't do that on this movie, not just because I read Isaacson's book, but because I don't care. Yeah. Like I would imagine that if you were Lisa Brennan, you know, his, his daughter that he refused to acknowledge for many years of her life, this movie probably is an abomination. It just in terms of it's, you know, the manipulation of that relationship and the artificiality. On the other hand, you can take credit for inventing the iPod. But that's right. You gave you.

You'll always have that. But. And so I feel for her personal case there. But as a work of art, it's great. And that is, you know, I have the privilege of saying that's what matters to me, not my own family history. This is my favorite Andy's airplane movies yet. Dude, it's a knockout. It came at the right time because I was losing you.

I was losing you. And we didn't even have time to talk about how my after-dinner mint was a revisit of Hoosers. I'll come back to that. Because I'm not flying this week, so I can rest here on Earth and then think about next movies. All right, man. It was great talking to you this week. We will maybe catch up. We'll catch up next week.

and we've got an Andy Greenwald show coming this week later in the week with Jonathan Tropper from Banshee? Yeah, we can announce that. Yeah, that one of my favorite shows, Banshee on Cinemax's ending series finale on Friday and I'll have an in-depth interview with the show's co-creator Jonathan Trapper up this week. Great. All right, can't wait to listen to it.

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