The Watch - Ep. 47: Jaime Lannister's Bad Side, 'Hamilton' and the Tonys, and Lin-Manuel Miranda's Next Move

Episode Date: June 14, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald on the world building within 'Game of Thrones' (8:00), Jamie and Cersei vs. the world (18:00), the 'Hamilton' victory lap, and the future opportunities for the 'Hamilton' stars (34:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the new HBO series, Any Given Wednesday with Bill Simmons. I love that guy. The new show will feature intimate conversations with compelling guests from the worlds of pop culture, sports, entertainment, the arts, and technology. Any given Wednesday with Bill Simmons will also include field segments and Simmons's signature commentary on current events. Make sure to watch Any Given Wednesday with Bill Simmons premiering Wednesday, June 22nd at 10 p.m. on HBO. We're also brought to you by our new website, The Rolls, Ringer.com presented by Miller Light. Go now and check out the latest in pop culture, sports, and tech at the ringer.

com. I bet we have a lot of stuff about Draymond Green. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan and I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. His name is Andy Greenwald of Philadelphia and he is going home. It's Andy Greenwald.

What if I did that though? That would we still do our show? If you went back to Philly? Yeah. Like, that would be emotional. It's also cool that you said that because you are obviously referencing. People have seen Creed, they know how that goes? Do you feel like if I return to like my childhood home on the main line,

like local like Solomon Schechter kids would show up on ATVs, just popping wheelies? I don't think so. Oh, man. Also, I want to say, Chris, I appreciate you giving me that great intro. You always do. And you referenced Game of Thrones of popular television. show on HBO, which I haven't seen. But you also, but the

relevance of that reference, like, on the show, the character who says that says she's going back there because she's just going back to regulate. Like, she's going back to murder people. Does she say it that way? She doesn't say, I mean, she's going home to her home and she's proud to reclaim her home, but remember, she's not , Ari is not in Westeros.

She was on an, she was on an iron bank vacation because she wanted to learn how to murder people. Right. Which, which is not what I've been doing for the less 17 years. Arii needs to stop playing Hero Ball, you know? You think? Yeah, she's been out for a minute. She could have dipped back to Westrose.

Here's what I want to say about Ariya. She was like, I'm going as far west as I can go. I'm going to the edge of the map. And by the way, for the people who listen to our podcast and are like out on Game of Thrones and like to fast forward, don't worry. We're going to talk about the Tonys. So you could just lean on the fast forward button. But what I was going to say about Aria was, did she need to be gone that long just to learn how to fight in the dark? That's my question.

She already knew how to fight, though. I feel like she knew from Serio. All she got is her ass beat by the way for like a long time. Yeah, but that's like... And she's like, now I finally learned. That's like saying Daniel Laruso just learned how to wash and wax wood paneling. You know what I mean? She thought she was learning one thing, but she was really learning how to beat Cobra Kai.

Yeah. But I will say that other than learning how to like, you know, weather treat wood decks and fight in the dark, I don't know what else she learned. She learned how to shuck pretty quickly. She learned how to run a passable raw bar, which is kind of, now that we're going into it, that's a pretty marketable skill. I think that she's got a lot of life lessons she can use.

Andy, let's talk a little bit about this episode of Game of Thrones. Okay. Because obviously the next episode is called, next episode is called Battle of the Bastards, and according to the scenes from next week. It will be a huge clash between Ramsey Bolton, John Snow. Sir Davos looks like he's involved. Wow.

They got the giant in the mix. Who could have seen any of that coming? You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of a lot of left field. But I wanted to ask you what you know, like there was some stuff that comes up at the end of this last episode about the rumors that Clyburn. Clyburn or is a guy? I love it. I can't get it.

I can't get it out of my head. I know. I said that to you once, and now you just... That's like when we were prepping to do after the Thrones this week, and I just kept asking Mallory what Barrett and Darien's title was. And I was like, Lord of Black Haven, Black Raven, the Black Raven. And then I just got it so wrong that I intentionally just didn't say anything. It's tricky.

But, you know, he goes up to Circe and he's like, the rumors are true. And then we kind of kept it moving from there. And I was kind of wondering, do you have any theories about what the rumors could be? I think he was pretty much confirming that Beyonce was never pregnant, that she was... He was like, I heard from Juliet Littman. Yeah, he's like, I sent a little bird to the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and Juliet Lidman responded. There's no way a pregnant woman sits down like that. No, okay, so that was obviously, that was a big question mark coming out of the episode.

And as much as I would like to give joke answers for the next 20 minutes, I do think that there was a pretty clear, I think it's pretty clear what he was talking about. I think he was talking about the rumored stores of wildfire that the Mad King just left down in the, down in the sewers like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, just down there. And the reason I say that, the main thing that I've really learned this year. And I feel like, okay, not just me, we've all learned it this year. And it's not just because we've been watching the episodes closely or talking about them or more closely than usual. It's that with a show this big and this sprawling with so many plots and so many characters, there really is no wasted space anymore. Like, it wasn't so much a surprise that Barrett and Darien and Thoros Amir came back this week

because they had been mentioned repeatedly leading up to it, right? Like, the show has gotten very clever at... Chekhov's Red Priest. No, but the show has gotten very clever in its Chekhovian winking, basically. But things that are mentioned have still have relevance. And as I said on the show the other week, on After the Thrones, I'm not really checking for Gendry coming back because no one's talked about him. So all that is to say, in Brand's vision from a few weeks ago, I know a vision you watch very closely, there we saw the pyromancers again. We saw the green stores of wildfire that we hadn't seen since Tyrion used a bunch of them to beat Stannis the Blackwater.

So that was my thought. What you might do with those things, I have no idea and it's sort of terrifying to imagine. I think that it might have something more to do with where she told Khyburn to send those little birds. Because she was like, go to Dorn, go to High Garden, get up in the north. Anybody who wants something bad to happen to me, I want to know about it, and then I'm going to kill him. She's the source says that. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah.

And so I wonder whether or not it's going to have something to do with one of those places. I don't know. I just, I was trying to figure out because that was the, you know, she was like, here's what I want you to do with those birds. So I would like, I mean, by that same way that you're like, everything has to be laced back through the original knot, I kind of wonder whether it has something to do with that. But what would the rumors be, like the rumors from the north that these certain alliances have fallen apart or that Ramsey Bolton is vulnerable or that John Snow is alive? The rumor is true. The Roseanne Dorn is delightful. No longer a rumor. Happy to politicact that one. I can confirm. Dude, that's what, you know, if I was Master of Wispers, that's what all my reports would be like.

They would all read like Robert Parker's wine advocate. Put the rumors to rest. But here's the other thing that I thought about that. The other possibility, I think you're right to mention Khyburn's role as the sort of de facto Master of Whispers. And ever since, I know it was your favorite scene of season six, which was the scene with the plums, the scene with Ashley Schaefer, BMW, and the plums. All the while.

When Kaiburn basically... Want to take a second just to let people know what we're talking about? I feel like every six months as a public service, just like the same way that like television networks used to start our days with the Pledge of Allegiance. I feel like every six months the watch should stop and celebrate the greatest outtake scene in American

television history which is the scene from eastbound and down where Will Ferrell gives an uninterrupted five-minute soliloquy as Ashley Schaefer from Ashley Schaefer's BMW about taking his plums to market

and about his son Gabriel watching him fornicating with his wife this is this is the season one outtakes. It's our favorite thing on YouTube. And it pretty much defines a good 20 to 40% of our life. And we were really excited about that scene. His son Gabriel.

His son Gabriel. He says, no, Gabriel, you watch. Let the boy watch. Let the boy watch. But this was our favorite. The point being when Khyburn basically flipped Oliverus' spies, his little children's network, all it took was the best

usage of plums on HBO since Ashley Schaefer BMW in Eastbound season one. Which, by the way, there hasn't really been any room to discuss the fact that, like, Varus' network seems pretty breachable. This is no black hat situation. You know what I mean? He has starving children. You just give them a sweet plum and they will say anything.

Yeah, I had envisioned sort of like a cadre of, like, faceless kind of spies who mix in in flea bottom and everywhere else. And instead it's just like a bunch of, like, starved children with plumbers. juice all over their face. Oh, dude. And if you were in a serious situation in Game of Thrones, like if you were like, okay, like we're planning X maneuver, and then you turned and there was like a little young dude with a plum,

just like, don't mind me, I'm just listening. Don't mind me, I'm just finishing my sticky plum. Like, what if every major room? This plum is good. I certainly didn't hear you talking about planning of an attack on Winterfell. This is what I'm saying. When Tyrion's talking about the history of the world is conversations in elegant rooms. What if it's a history of conversations in elegant rooms with plum prints on the wall?

Like every room that Tyrion is planting stuff in, there's just a sticky residue of half-digested fruit juice on the wall. And like, that's how everything actually gets done. But joke, though, we may be doing. I am serious that I thought that it was interesting that Kaiburn is confirming something clearly sourced through his new. acquired network in the same episode that Varus is suddenly like, yo, I'm out. I have to go. So I wonder slash worry that Varus is moving on bad information because he's never had bad information. He's generally controlled the information. So him suddenly piecing out, I wonder if there's a connection there to what's happening with Circy. That would be the other possibility, I think.

The other one thing I wanted to talk about from this episode, and we can just chat about it. I mean, I don't care. But, um, that's all we chat. This is what we do. People, four years in. They're not expecting anything better than that. When Jamie, when Jamie goes up to Edmere and he's like, this is, this is my bad side. Do you know that I'm not a good person? I'm rewatching it. I wonder if anything got left on the cutting room floor. I wonder if there was anything that we could have, uh, that could have been added to it. Like I wish that Jamie was like, you know what he's like, I'm going to catapult your baby? Yeah, I remember that part. I wish he would have been like, I'm going to take your baby and I'm going to punt that baby like,

Weatherford. And then I'm going to go and catch that same baby like Deshaun Jackson. And I'm going to run that baby into River Run and toss that baby like it's a football at the Meadowlands. So can I, just to just to be clear here, what you're suggesting is that much like there's a five-minute Ashley Schaefer BMW outtake, there's an outtake of this scene where Jamie Lannister basically does a Westerosy version of the Method Man tortures. skit from the first Wooten record.

Where he's like, I'm going to take your baby, and I'm going to start punting your baby, and I'm going to keep catapulting it, and catapulting it, and catapulting it. And when your baby is like, don't catapult me no more. Like, is that where you're going with this? I don't know.

I just, I mean, I am so in the bag for Jamie that he really can't, he can do no wrong. So why not, why not? I was just saying that they could have indulged in that a little bit more. I wonder if Nick Koster Wildow likes early Wu-Tang, or if he's just like, you know, maybe he just likes the soul. What do you think he likes? He's probably one of, you know, he probably likes the first genius record. Like, those, those dudes were always the most annoying to me.

I bet he likes, but you know in real life he's like, I'm super into a proper Ladrock. Oh, he likes of mice and men and stuff. Like, I feel, you know what I mean? Oh, no, I think he likes, like, stereophonics. I think he likes Alt J. Because let me be clear about something. I'm a 39-year-old man who's worked in the media for 17 years, and I have no idea what all Jay sounds like, and I don't care. But you think that Nick likes them?

He just seems like the kind of dude who maybe, you know, maybe he happens to be doing press in the UK during tea in the park, and he knows a guy who knows a guy who can get him backstage, and he has a couple loggers back there, and a band's playing, and, you know, and he's like, in it, you know, like, he becomes an Englishman at that moment, even though he's. he isn't and he's just he's kind of viving to it like he probably likes that i don't know what it is but that sounds like i feel like that's what that band is and that's probably what he likes you know i'm right like i'm waiting for a counter but i feel like i've just i feel like i know him i got distracted because i think i just got invited to go to the cayman islands for a film festival featuring zoui soldana but i'm not going to go but i was just is that a real thing that's great yeah i hope so sidebar did you just confirm what i've long suspected which is you just scroll through your emails talking on this podcast.

No, I got an alert. I got an alert like, I was like, oh, no, is something wrong? And it was just somebody to be like, what's up with the Caymans? Do you have an alert anytime anyone mentions Zoe Saladanya to you on social media? What do you mean? Why would you get an alert then that you don't normally look at? I got an internal Google alert for just for my email. No, you have my undivided attention, as always.

Look, man, a couple other points. I really, I mean, we really had a good time doing After the Thrones this week. And I think one of the reasons why was because we could just talk about Jamie Lannister, who Loki is one of the most interesting characters on the show. You went right out and said that he's your favorite character on the show. I didn't find a moment during our free-flowing conversation on set to point out that I feel like anytime you say he's your favorite character, I feel like you have to say you're an only child. Like I feel like both of us just have to preface that because otherwise it's just a little.

I don't know. It's Creep Town. Yeah. But there's that, it is fascinating because for someone, I mean, part of the, part of the purpose of the show, and I would imagine the books, and I welcome the thousands of furious tweets I'll get, because this is incorrect, but was, you know, taking these, these, these sort of paradigms of fantasy fiction and breaking them down. Yeah, right. And so, inverting Prince Valiant type thing. Exactly. And so Prince Valiant from day one of the show was actually kind of an incestuous model.

and a villain. But what the show has done in a way that I certainly would have predicted from, you know, the first few episodes is that it tore him off the billboard, basically, but then has slowly built him up in a more interesting way. But as we kept talking about on After the Thrones, there is this sort of elegiac feel to the characters arc right now where he just seems stuck fighting yesterday's wars, not the wars to come. The fact, you know, we made a big deal talking about how nice he looked in his armor standing by a moat in a drawbridge, which could not be more fantasy trope 101. The fact that he waved to Brien as she went off to do real, real things,

while he was still stuck in that old castle. I think that was sort of a subtle, very subtle piece of filmmaking there that I kind of appreciated. I, you know, I think we both agree that we don't really see a happy ending for this dude, but I wonder if he has, and we talked with Mallory about this, but we didn't really get to a firm answer. I wonder what role he has still to play. If he is headed towards some sort of tragedy and full disclosure, we have no idea where he's headed,

or if he will play a role, however small, in the bigger configuration that's still to come. Yeah, he's somebody who has existed on the margins of this story for a really long time, even though he's been traded back and forth as a chess piece between the Starks and the Lannisters. He committed one of the sort of triggering acts to start this whole thing in motion with killing Aris. he's been, you know, he was on the bench for a while in a lot of ways. And now I think part of the reason why I responded so strongly into the episode was because it was really neat to see him in action out in the mix, talking to different people, interacting in different scenes.

And, you know, let's also, one thing we don't often get a chance to do is to look back in hindsight on anything. And, you know, a lot of the criticism directed towards the show in the, the last last season in season five was directed at Dorn, which, you know, I think a lot of people felt ended up being kind of a storytelling dead end. And I wrote a bunch of things to that effect in my recaps. It's pretty telling that we haven't gone back there after the massacre and the season premiere this year. But much like I was trying to articulate on After the Thrones about the Tyrion and Misunday drinking scene, there's certain scenes that can be frustrating to you

as a fan of the world building could function on a more traditional TV storytelling metric or by that kind of metric. I think there might be an argument to be made, or it's not even an argument. It's just worth reexamining the Dorn stuff because for as much as that was about taking off a box on the world map and showing us something new and expanding the horizons. And it does seem like the kind of place that they had to cover because they had Oberyn in the previous season. And then they also just, you know, fans of the book love that place and there's a lot of action there. But if you look at it, not just as an opportunity to add another thing to the opening credits, that was an arc about Jamie becoming a dad, basically. I mean, that was an emotional arc.

And I do think it fell flat because it was all over the place and didn't really hone in on that until probably the last episode, the last two episodes that concerned that plot. But that was, that is, if you just think about that and not think of it, you not lose it. I think of it, if this show was just about Jamie and Searcy and their plot, I mean, that's the thing is that, like, there's, There's just only so much real estate that they can cover. And especially the season as they can, they're obviously starting to construct, you know, they're setting up the bridge to the end right now.

I think that some of those characters have to just do the thing. They can't have their moments. And I was, you know, I think that sometimes the only place where you get robbed of that is, let me ask you this. The Jamie stuff that he's saying, Edmere when he's like, I will burn everything to the ground to get back to Cersie.

It's like the only thing that matters in this whole world. Because he's like, you know, you didn't bring me here to talk about our sisters. And he's like, that's exactly why I brought you here. Do you feel like that statement? And this could be one of the same thing. Is a statement of devotion to Cersie? Or is it a statement of insanity? Because remember when he got back from being on the road with Brien and he had lost a hand?

And he was just like, I've basically traveled across hell to get back to you. and she's like, and you're late. Like, Circe and Jamie do not have a loving relationship in the typical, in the typical, you know, conception of the idea, obviously, because they're brother and sister. And they like to sleep together underneath their dead son. But, you know, I think that their relationship and the motivation for some of their actions winds up having to take a back seat to the overall plot point that we're going towards. I agree. But the flip side of that is if we get six, seven, eight, eight, we're getting more than six, seven, eight seasons of the show, there, they're,

there inevitably, there is room for, for some of the, of the, of the emotional homework. And the thing about Jamie that's, that's fascinating. And this is true for many of the characters, but Jamie has nothing. Like that, that is the thing about that scene and about his behavior in this episode is that he's, he's such a chameleon because there is nothing inside. He, he survives by, by being a mirror and reflecting back what people expect to see. So, Brienne sees a knight, and he performs the role of night. And Edmour sees a supervillain.

and he performs that role pretty well too. Everyone, he's a vessel. He's a cipher because he's like really good looking and used to be good with a sword and look good with armor, so he played that role. But all of this comes back. I mean,

but the familial anguish that Tyrion has and has had more room to express, Jamie certainly has too. I mean, he had his mother died when he was young. His father was a monster. And the only person who has ever been constant in his life is his sister. So if you take that away,

he doesn't have anything, which is, you know, that's, that is a inflated literary version of why everyone in the world goes to therapy because you don't want to look at the hole you want to fill the hole. I think that in terms of the show, that is a very good explanation for the behavioral stuff. But in terms of the show and the mechanics of the narrative, maybe what I'm the itch I'm trying to scratch is the absence of Taiwan then. Sure.

Because Tywin served as the like the tripwire for everything. And it was, he was the one who was like, I mean, you could say that he was, he was the one that they were all trying to impress or run away from. And it was his, he articulated what Lannisters were so well that I think that, and that's probably part of the issue that's facing this family in this fictional world now is that they don't know what they are and they don't have really a purpose, you know, but he was so good at being, you know, he's carving up that bore and he's like, this is what Lannisters are. This is what you have to be. This is what your sister is. This is what your brother is. Maybe there's like a little bit less oversight now. Such a good metaphor, too, because isn't the stag is, wasn't that house Barathean?

And he's just sitting there carving it up. Right. That's right. In front of him. I mean, this is what all the characters are struggling with over the, however many, the six seasons is, you know, to have a, to be in a family, basically, in one of these great houses, gives you a role to play, which is pretty useful because otherwise you just might be a hippie getting slaughtered in the middle of the field. But, you know, being in your lane, you can also be in a rut. and, you know, you will go down with the ship, even though you might have something better inside of you,

you know, or you might be capable of so much more. Like, Jamie seems to have fun on his road trip with Braun last year, you know. He just, there's just nothing else for him to do. It's never occurred to him that he could break free because he feels this obligation to Circe even though, even though she, I mean, we talk about it. Even though they're twins. Even though they're twins and they like to have sex with each other.

I don't know if we've been clear about that point. But they, it's them against the world, which is, you know, that's a... It's romantic. It is romantic. That's why I like them. Because they're romantic and they're twins that like to have sex with each other. Andy, just want to take a quick break to talk about our sponsor, Lute Crate. This episode is brought to you by Lute Crate, and Lute Crate, and Lute Crate is a monthly subscription box service for epic geek and gamer items and pop culture gear.

For less than $20 a month, you get $4 to $8 items that include licensed gear, apparel, collectibles, unique one-of-a-kind items, and more. Make sure to head over to Luke Cray. crate.com slash watch and enter code watch to save $3 on any new subscription. Now, Lou Crate is actually more than just a subscription service. It's an entire community of fans that share their experience and interact with each other around the unboxing of each month's crate. And they guarantee $40 or more in value in every crate. So that's a lot.

And sometimes it's a lot more. Every month there's a different theme and all items are curated around that theme. So previous crates have included franchises like Star Wars, Marvel, the Walking Dead, the legend of Zelda and many more. And pop culture is full of brave new worlds and societies and flux that don't always turn out for the best. June's theme will be exploring some of the things that can go wrong with dystopia, featuring classics, Robocop, Terminator 2, Judgment Day, and The Matrix, and new faves like Bioshock Infinite and Fallout 4.

They've got a figure, cool collectibles, and of course the dystoporific monthly t-shirt. Remember, you only have until the 19th at 9 p.m. Pacific to subscribe and receive that month's crate. And when the cutoff happens, that's it. It's over. So go to lucrate.com slash watch and enter promo code watch to save $3 on your subscription today. Also want to tell you a little bit about our sponsor, Indochino. Now, Indochino makes made-to-measure suits, and they make them affordable, they make them for the masses. You got to understand, when you get a suit off the rack, man, it's just not, you're actually not wearing a suit.

You're wearing something that anyone could wear. But with Indochino, you wear something that's made just for you. It's a one-of-a-kind. It's uniquely for you. and you just feel so much more confident, you feel like you look much better. If you're going to any kind of event, whether you go to a job interview, a wedding, what have you,

you want to feel like your best self. That's what Indochino lets you do. Indochino is reinventing fashion, and a made-to-measure suit is the best suit you will ever own. So suit up. Get a one-of-a-kind made-to-measure suit. You customize the details you want. You pick the lining, the lapels.

You can either monogram it if you want, and you get 14 unique measurements that go into making a suit, so it fixed you perfectly. Shoulders, whatever you. you want to do. You can't go wrong with a well-crafted 100% marino wool suit. And you want to check out their made-to-measuredress shirts and men's accessories so you can put the whole package together. You get a money-back guarantee. And today, our listeners get any premium suit for just $399,

which is up to 50% off at Indochino.com. All you have to do is enter watch at checkout. Plus, shipping is free. There's no reason not to try your first custom-made suit with a deal this good. And a suit classic from their premium collection will look good, feel good, and last. That's Indochino.com promo code watch for any premium suit for just $399 plus free shipping. Indochino, your look, your way. I did just want to say by way of segue, I know segues are your thing. But do you remember? If you got a segue for Jamie and Cersie sleeping together to the Tony Awards, I can't wait to hear it.

I just want to say, I do. Well, no, I was going to do one of the Game of Thrones point. Because do you remember the episode where Tyrion killed Taiwan was aired on Father's Day in America? And I was like, nice job. I thought it was pretty interesting that the show's most devastating treatment of theater and the theater community aired on the same night as the Tonys. Like, Jackin just doesn't like theater. The faceless men have no time for theater. Like, I thought the faceless men could have been like Ben Brantley and Chris Isherwood at the times because, you know, they're anonymous critics, but no, no, no.

He was dedicated to getting Lady Crane, man. One way or another. That's what I'm saying. She was also very chill about being marked for death. Arie was like, you're on the list, girl, and she was just like, cool. I have to do the matinee, though. Look, theater people love doing theater. That's something we learned last night at the Tonys, which you and I both watched,

and I don't know how often we do that. I don't want to assume. Are you a regular? No, like most of America, I think that Hamilton grabbed my interest. I love an NPH hosted show, but yeah, I thought Gordon was great last night. but I was really watching for the Hamilton Victory Lab. It was pretty interesting to watch. It was, you know, it was, I thought they handled it as probably as best as they could.

It got a little silly towards the end when you just have like the president and first lady put their thumbs on the scale and be like, because all the other shows had like Carrie Russell two weeks out of the delivery suite at Mount Sinai. And she's like, I was in a movie once and they made a show about it. And like, that's nice. Ray Russell was just like, you may have seen me walking down the street with a Van Lewin cone with my kids. Let me tell you about waitress. But here's waitress. But by the way, here's the president. And then it's just like everyone at the end was basically like, thank you.

Thank you based musical for allowing us to share the stage with you. You know, that has got to be, my big takeaway from the night was just like maybe the people nominated in categories against Hamilton probably had the most fun. and chill awards experience anyone has ever had. Can you imagine how relaxed you might? Because if you win, you basically have to apologize slash, you'd probably just be like, I don't deserve this. And then if you lose, when you lose, you could just be like, A-okay. The flip side of that. And, you know, I assume people heard, or they turned off our own ham for ham pod that we did a couple months ago, because we were both lucky enough to see the show. You saw it in like December. Is that right? Or November. And I saw it, I saw it in January. And we both.

I mean, I think it's, even now, even after last night, I still think it's better than the hype, or my experience was. Like, I do think it's one of the most astonishing artistic experiences I've ever had. And I was so happy for everyone involved with the show. But during last night's Tony's broadcast, I was thinking, like, imagine if you are a backup go-go dancer in the Gloria Estefan number. Like, and you know that your job. If you're just the banjo player and Bright Star. But it's like, that even though, I was like, okay, that's. a thing. But like, if your job is to go up there and be like, just sing with Gloria Estefan, a

Gloria Estefan song from 1986 and be like, please judge us with the same critical eye that you would judge Hamilton. I think I have a better one, which is imagine you're the dude who is playing the Jack Black role in the School of Rock Musical. I would take it a step further. I would like to pretend I am that dude so I could jump into a fire. And they're coming up to you and they're like you really as if you have to capture like Lawrence of Olivier playing Hamlet you're like you really need to get the essence of what Jack Black brought to School of Rock The subtleties of it and when you say yeah

you need to believe it like Black believed it That was really good man Maybe you're an understudy I was watching that though and like first of all Andrew Lloyd Weber wrote that show which is so weird school of Rock Yes what? Yes yes What that's why he introduced it Oh I thought he was like

I thought he was just like, yeah, sure, whatever you guys need. I was impressed that he spoke on stage because he has one of those faces where like the part of his face that used to be his face is now tied somewhere behind his spinal column. He took Phantom of the Opera a little seriously. He has a couple faces and then got a couple other faces. And he, but then he was just like, the delightful memorable film. Was it a human character, manny faces? Oh, no. Oh, no, wasn't that Mano War?

and he had a dial on his head and he could just switch faces. Yeah, but that School of Rock thing was just, it was just bad. And, like, that was the thing about the Tonys that was pretty remarkable because generally, you know, and maybe this makes it good, but, like, you watch the Oscars, and there are always movies that are not good that are nominated, but they're not good in a way that is generally, like, code for trying to be good or trying to appeal to people or pandering, like a movie like Crash or something gets in there. or, you know, theory of everything.

I don't care about that. But, like, it has the patina of quality that gets into the Oscars, right? But Tony's cast a wider net because there aren't as many shows. And so things that seemed actively pretty terrible to me were on stage also. And everyone seemed to be having a good time,

which I respect. But you know what I'm getting at here? I think they professionally have a good time. I think musicals tend to be, especially the musicals. Like, the people from the humans seem they were like, yeah, that was a fucking drag, right? Not working for Joe Mantella.

Working with Joe Mancello. I mean, I think that, like, the actual, like, emotional content of the play is probably very, like, Osage County-esque. But all those dudes, including Reed Bernie, who's a really good actor, talked about Joe Mantello, the way Steve Stout talks about push a tea. You know what I mean? These dudes were, like, Joe Mantello actually wrote the McDonald's. I'm loving it, theme. Like, no shots. No shots.

Joe Mantello beat Russia in 1980 in 1980. Yeah. I'm just saying, you know when Joe Biden gets on the radio and he's just like, we're doing a moonshot for cancer? Like, I now know the two people who should be on his speed dial. It's push a tea and Joe Mantello. Like, those dudes get the best out of the people they work with. Any other thoughts on the Tony's before we go? We have just a couple other points to say.

One is I really love learning about what show I'm watching or what the show's audience is by the advertisers. And like when I used to watch a lot of cooking channel at off hour, and all the ads would be for like put in your own catheter kits. And I was like, okay. All right. Like now I know who's watching the show with me. I was pretty, it was pretty funny,

like CBS Primetime Special. And there was that commercial for like the cellular company that has the phones with two buttons on it, you know, the one that my mom sees the ad. And she's like, oh, that looks better than an iPhone.

Like, those are commercials I don't usually see. So I thought that was funny. What did you think, well, Okay, two, I want to talk Hamilton, but I also want to talk Corden. What did you think of Corden as the host of this event? I thought he did a nice job.

I mean, he's obviously like, the thing that the Tonys do that's really smart is they get the most famous song and dance person they can. I feel like the Tonys have incredibly good luck with the hosts. And I thought that, you know, in TV or in movies, it's like when you have Dervais, Jervais is like antagonistic towards the entire thing that they're doing. In some ways, like Chris Rock is too. But with the Tonys, it's cool to see somebody who's like, I'm in awe of you guys. And I kind of secretly wish I just was in Bright Star or in whatever. And I think that that helps the generally very celebratory nature of what it is.

I mean, in Hollywood, it tends to be a little bit more acidic or a little bit more like self-flagellating. Whereas at the Tonys, I think everybody's just like, it's really, really hard to do this every night and every night. Yeah, and it's enthusiastic and very, very strong. supportive and it felt cleaner somehow. It felt nice. And, you know, it was interesting to know. I wonder what happened if you applied that vibe to the Oscars. I mean, I think that they try to with like the glory of the movies.

But the, the, the intros, the, you know, the monologues are always just like, look at you rich assholes. Because they are. I mean, it's a viper kid. Yeah. You know, I think that's, I think that's weirdly accurate. I was thinking about how stage actors, like, they were just so, there's so much better at giving speeches and being human beings. You know, like all the speeches were so considered and classy and kind and generous.

And some of them were obviously considered because Hamilton people knew they were going to win, you know, since January. But also there was also a generosity of spirit that went in different directions. Obviously, there were people reaching out and commenting on the horrible tragedy in Orlando. But there was also a surprising amount of religion from the stage, even from some of the Hamilton cast members. And I found it kind of, you know, this is me post-chance the rapper conversion. And so please understand that. But I found it quite moving. You know, it was the sort of the things that Leslie Odom said about Lin-Manuel Miranda

or that Renee Goldsbury said about having children and about God watching them. It was very, it was very inclusive and moving. And it felt like exactly the sort of thing that people in Hollywood would be afraid to say because they would be laughed at or mocked or it wouldn't be genuine. And maybe it wouldn't be. So I thought that, you know, there's people like you mentioned where you're burning. it was just like, I've been doing this for, however I mean, like 35 years or 42 years or something. He's like the first 35 sucked, you know, and it's, you often, it takes a real Hail Mary miracle for

something like that to happen in Hollywood where somebody who's basically been a date, like, on the bench for for that long, can come through and do that. And that's, that's very, very, very lovely when something like that can happen. I agree. And I thought Corden was really, really good host. I thought his opening Hamilton thing was terrific. I thought the other thing where he did all the other musicals went on way too long, but people seem to like it. But he's just, we should do another pod we talk about just him in the finale. Yeah, we should do like late night. Probably to sum up. Yeah. I thought this week he had just doing donuts on, basically on Colbert's lawn in New York was pretty interesting. But the last point was just Hamilton. We love it. We're

excited to see it win and triumph. What do you think, who do you think came out of this, the best. I mean, maybe that's not the right question. All the biggest stars of the show won big, and that was all expected and deserved. Like, I was Leslie going to deserve acting Tony more than Lin-Manuel, because Lin-Manuel got everything else. A lot of the people are leaving the cast in the next few months when their contracts are up, and obviously the show's going to keep printing money. But do you think there's a very Tony vibe to their next moves in the sense that they all realize they are theater lifers and this is a once-in-a-lifetime thing and it's going to set them up and they'll, you know, they'll win many Tonys and be in other shows, but they're never going to, like, get the next

fame Apple, or do you think one of them in particular is ready for the next, the next step? Well, I would have to imagine at this point, there are people who are lining up with checkbooks to talk to Lynn Miranda and saying, where do you want me to sign, you know? Whatever you want to do next, you just tell me how much you want. But Odom is the interesting part for me. I've been, in my head, pretty much since I've seen Hamilton, trying to cast him in other stuff, that I see even, you know, just, like, I was even thinking, could Leslie Odom play Daniel Caffey in the NBC A Few Good Men? And I think it's a testament to how incredible he is in Hamilton.

And you can hear it if you haven't seen the show. If you can hear it in the way he sings, and if you see any video clips, you can see it in the intensity of his performance, is that there is a little bit of, like, there is a little bit of polish that other people have that Odom actually eschews. I think he's got it and he's got like the capacity for it

but he makes burst so on edge in this show that it's almost hard to imagine him doing something other than this

and obviously he will but it would be you know he's on smash before this you know he was in law and order he was doing

the New York actor thing but I've been trying in my head to put him in other stuff that I see because it's just I thought he was so remarkable and it's actually

pretty hard and it's a testament to how good he's is in the show. Yeah, and it's also testament to, among the many, many things that Hamilton does so well, it gave people their most amazing platforms to succeed in a certain way. I mean, the skill set required to play Angelica Schuyler is very, very specific. And very, very few people can do it.

I don't know how you translate that. Similarly, what DeVie Diggs does on stage as Lafayette and as Jefferson is so electric and so amazing and taps into all of his abilities, which, you know, initially weren't stage acting, right? He was a rapper and, and, and I think that's primarily what he was doing, right? He was, but the point being, what else is going to give people a chance to do all, to use all of those skill sets? And Lynn Manuel is in a different situation because people are backing up the truck and he can do,

he's doing the Mary Poppin sequel where he can like write and, you know, and dance and, and, and write the songs and do all the things that he wants to do. But it'll be very interesting to see what these other people do going forward because what they've done, you know, what they did was magical and it was exciting that people got to watch it last night. Yeah, I hope we don't look at it as like a gift and a curse. I hope that this can be this like incredible thing that they gave people and that they'll, you know, it's one of those things where it's like it wouldn't be so bad to always be known for this.

No, they will always, always, always be very, very beloved for this. I think they're never going to have to pay for a drink in New York anyway again. All right. Well, we'll try to hit people with a re-up this week. I'm pretty sure we will. And until then, I'll talk to you soon, buddy. Great job, Wrenski. I'm Jeff Shackleford, and today on Shackhouse, we discuss the All Things the U.S. Open,

Joe Buck, and our special guest, Brian Curtis, told us all about his feature on The Ringer. That's Shackhouse on iTunes or wherever you get podcasts.