The Watch - Ep. 49: 'Game of Thrones' Season Finale Predictions

Episode Date: June 20, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan, Andy Greenwald, and Mallory Rubin react to last night's 'Battle of the Bastards,' give their take on what's next for the finale, and discuss the current relationship between George R.R. Martin's books and the show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Made for Men, Fit for Kings. I need sports to have to clear. and run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan and I am an editor on the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He let the dogs out. It's Andy Greenwald!

Hey, buddy. Hey, you know, I'm on a beach right now, but thanks for including me. Yeah, always a pleasure. Andy, I'm here with Mallory Rubin in our studio here in an oven like Los Angeles. Hey, guys. It's nice here. How's it going, Mal? It's toasty,

Toasty, but great. We've only got a limited time of Andy G. Today, so we want to get... I just want to paint the picture. I'm living my life out here like a late period Jay Z-Z thought. You understand that? This is Kingdom Come.

My segment of this podcast is a collaboration with Chris Martin. I just want you to know that. Yeah, I like where you're going with this. Andy, we wanted to talk a little bit about last night's Thrones, and then before you go, we'll get a little bit of a take on the finale coming up. After everything, after everybody's reaction, after seeing it, any new thoughts that you didn't share with folks on After the Thrones? I think my thoughts remained pretty much the same. I mean, I was looking at people's reaction

to it, and it was interesting because I feel like we said on the show for striking aspects, all of the chess pieces pretty much moved through the board the way we would have expected. Like they ended up the board, that's exactly what I don't mean. I mean, they ended up kind of right like the people who survived survive but I'm still struck by how it just engagingly everything went in the chess game complicated at that level of skill but one in which you kind of you kind of know there's going to be a happy ending I mean I I I don't think that one that ship is I enjoyed it you know I think it was pretty incredible stuff and it's fun and the show can do that and they can do other stuff so I'm looking

forward to me somewhere Benny Off and Weiss are like a challenge accepted now Did your feelings change it all after last night? I mean, I felt immensely satisfied in a way that I maybe never had watching an episode of Game of Thrones. I mean, it's always thrilling and riveting, but you're never like happy at the end necessarily. And so it was a new sensation. I mean, I think if you compare it to, you know, if you say this is like a top five all-time episode, you're putting it up there alongside the reins of Casimir and Baylor and Hardholm and these other episodes that are grand and scale. and shocking in some way, but they're shocking and grand because something awful happens to someone we care about deeply.

So it was a really different sort of experience. You didn't mention the one where the actor shows is penis warts. Well, that's just my personal favorite, obviously, but not necessarily type five. I agree with Mal here because, and this is something that Jason, Jason, except. Oh, you agree with Mal. Why don't I just leave then? There's the door, buddy. Andy and I are good.

Are you still here? Are you still here? I didn't realize. I thought you were just sort of. lighten the candle than stepping out, like fans on the tower. No, this is something our maister said, and I think maybe we'll talk about it, because we'll have them back for our After the Thrones finale this week. But look, there's nothing necessarily wrong with fan service.

Like, it's okay that things can work out in our favor sometimes. It's generally how storytelling works, and which has been so interesting about this whole, because it's not just a show, it's not just a book, but this narrative universe that George R. Martin started, and Benioff and White's are very definitively. the nudges and nod to the direction of we're not going to give you the stereotypical happy ending, we're not going to do fan service, it's not going to end the way you expect, he still put in play these pieces that set up something that is ultimately kind of conventional. And I don't mean that as a bad thing, you know, talking about like Campbell, Hero Myth stuff,

we are still on that track. Yeah. And all of these past seasons have been fainting in different directions and showing us, you know, basically the last five seasons have basically been a slate article of like, okay, well, what if he didn't win? And we saw what would happen if he didn't win, but we're still headed in a place where the pieces they were left on the board, Daeneres and Her Dragon, Tyrion, cracking,

Wies, and cracking bottles of wine, John Snow not being able to be killed anymore. One big evil ice zombie in the north, we're headed towards something that the most satisfying conclusion, ultimately might be the one we kind of were expecting all along, and that's not a bad thing. But I think it's interesting that Martin never wanted to do these sort of things, and, you know, but my feeling in Mallory,

you can jump in on this, because I don't know if Chris is still there after this monologue, but maybe that's one of the reasons why he's having trouble finishing these books is because what if the only ending left for him to tell is a happy ending? And he sort of hits that up his whole story as being against that. I think it's such a good point. It's such an interesting thing to talk about. Oh, we said interesting drink. If you think about other stories, whether it's a TV show, a literary series, where this

sort of fan community sprung up around the source material, whether it was Harry Potter or lost, like any possible outcome, some fan somewhere had suggested, had floated, had floated, put out there, like all possibilities had occurred to the bulk of people by the time they happen. It's just that with this particular story, people have been speculating for so long, so long, two decades at this point since Martin began writing the books that I think we have literally run out of new ideas. And so there's something maybe that like, there's a sense of like maybe this is inevitably

going to fall a little flat. It's the joke about like monkeys typing. Eventually they'll write Hamlet if you, if they, if they, do it for long enough. Like, that's what we've done with Reddit, right? Like, we've, we've been speculating long enough about what all these different, uh, permutations of outcomes and destinies that eventually we're going to start to, the pie shrinks, right? Right. And it doesn't make it dissatisfying. I think there is some element of like, well, if I, a mere mortal could have stumbled upon this potential outcome. It can't be like the genius that I expect from, from you. But,

uh, I hope that we can sort of like, we're now in the period as a fan community where we're like, oh, maybe it's a little bit of a shame that we've sort of been able to piece this all together and that we can then pivot back to saying, oh, it's so satisfying to finally see this. And Andy, I know that you've got to go. So I wanted to, I wanted to sort of pivot towards the finale by asking you a question. But, oh, wait, before you do, I do want to just jump in, I think what Mallory's saying is really right, because I feel like as much of a problem that people have with this idea of fan service, being willfully obscure is really worse, I think. You know, I mean, just because an answer seems set up, that means maybe you

set it up well. And it's okay to pull the trigger and give people what they want. You know, I think this thing with, you know, when Uncle Benjian came back on the show, those of us who haven't read the books were like, oh, okay, well, the show's been teasing him. It makes sense that he would come back. He's playing a helping his family. That makes sense. And then we find out from Mallory and Jason and other people who are very into the books that this character that he's playing, that Benjian character has not yet revealed to be Benjamin in the books. And George R. Martin, as apparently said, he will never reveal it to be Benjamin. But the freedom that Benny Off and Weiss have is to say, of course it's Benjamin, that makes sense, and let's not tie a knot here when we don't need another

knot here. Yeah, and the thing is that we're talking here about this idea. We're almost talking as if Game of Thrones ended it, and it was a happy ending. But I beg to differ. I think that we very well, there was a moment in the scenes from next week that they put up where John says we have to trust each other and kisses Sanz on the forehead, and we had this long conversation on After the Thrones about Sands' like secret call to the bullpen, you know, bringing in Eckersley out of the stadium and into the game in the form of Littlefinger,

that there still could be some dissent within the, only by sort of name, Stark family, and that we still have a lot of stuff to settle in King's Landing. And interestingly enough, in those scenes from next week, it looked like Jamie was hanging out in the twins. So his, I need to get back to King's Landing no matter what, at least by the preview, doesn't look like it's immediately happening. this is a very finale-esque episode, but Andy, what are you looking for in the finale in next week's episode?

I'm glad you mentioned the Sansa thing because that was the other big thing hanging over this episode and we talked about it on After the Thrones, and then since then other people, other critics, I thought Jim Panawasik at the Times talking about this too and he's a book reader as well, you know, and sort of parsing what the possible reasons why she didn't tell him were,

and some of them actually gave something even more like little-fingery credit, basically being like she didn't say anything because she wanted to maximize her chance of winning. So she wanted Ramsey drawn out and she wanted him. She was willing to sacrifice. It's pretty dark, but also, but I just think that it's worth staying on that point. And you mentioned the right line from the scenes from next week episode with John, which is to say that for as much as people are flipping out over this episode.

And I feel like I felt prey to this last year when I was writing about every episode. And it's natural to recover every episode as it looks like that. Sometimes I wish it did, but it doesn't. I personally don't remember what happened after Hard Home in a weird, way, you know? That's right. That's right, because we just were so hung up on that. It's like hard home and then LeBron's block and then everything in between is kind of a blur. Both of them involving defeating the dead, like in a way that's totally supernatural and impossible. But with the Sonsa thing, like, of course we don't know why she did that. And of course

it wasn't purely, isn't finished yet. And, you know, this is the show we've been watching. They're going to be ramifications. And one of the interesting things I think that the show does is misdirect as much as anyone. Like when Sonson John were reunited, we just, we were covelling on after the Thrones being like, oh, how meaningful that these starks reunited again after all this time and how rare it is to see these people together. But, you know, I think Mallory was right in the forefront of pointing this out that these characters never really got along. Yeah. And so that might be.

They pointed it out. They were like, oh, I'm sorry, it was a dick. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so aloof. You know, like they are aware of their own frailty as a, as a duo. Yeah, and their own history. That's right. And if there's one thing the show has taught us, particularly in the end games of the series,

season is that the fatal blow is often going to come from the night's watch or whether it's Tyrion shooting his dad in the crapper. And I'm not saying these characters are going to kill each other, but that tension is just a great masters of German Marine. Before you go, I wanted to ask you on the sort of macro TV level, you have to respect the heat check by Bettyov and Weiss that they're like, yeah, John Snow is going to fight like an army by himself with a giant. And then next week, a trial you know like a trial and the sept

how about that yeah yeah look we were joking about this right like didn't weren't we joking when we watched this episode

we watched Battle of the Bastog we were like that's why the high sparrow's been in the same room for eight weeks yeah like you gotta switch it up

I mean we got that horse budget but seriously like you can't I always find it interesting when people

are 24 seven obsessives over TV shows but ignore large swats of it the jungle detail of nine of after then consider the budget too right so when people are like oh this was a week episode this show is really going down the tube they have to move the money around you know and i don't mean like in a cayman island set like for me the production of the show is often as interesting as what's actually produced yeah all right man well you go back so i want to

hear before i go i want to hear i got to hear what is mallory what are you thinking about for the finale where where's your head at do you have another hour and a half or do you want me just should i just uh Should I just send you a letter, a pink letter about my thoughts? Send me a pink letter. Flai Tate, just a little bit, and then write the thoughts on it. Just a little bit. Tate's young. His skin is pliant.

It'll bounce back. I'm looking forward to chatting a little bit more about Varis and what he might be up to, and also the Mad Queen theory that we've discussed, and how wildfire might come into play. Those are the big things that I'm wondering. about and also where's wildfire you say what's brand up to i also want to know where do where do yara and denaris go on their first date right to bed that's not great point in right you guys like i know uh wait chris i know we're going to we're going to do another re-up this week when i'm out there we have a big super you guys are going to keep talking i assume about the detour on tbs and the new yg

album yes christ decides to save those for thursday yeah but i have to mallory loves twist my fingers just like she does i figure that's her jam what about what about f donald trump that's an anthem ready start popping off too. But you guys, I have to ask you, like, you know we're talking about the time between episode 9 and 10 of Game of Thrones, but between episode 9 and 10 of After the Thrones, how many vermin do you think are eating the potato flakes

in our studio right now? I was really glad on the rewatch, I noticed that it was snowing behind Sanzah. So I was like, thank God it actually snowed, because otherwise all those potatoes would have died in vain. You really, yeah, pour a little out for those potatoes. That was the real mass casualty event this week. I want that to be like a sixth grade science experiment where we just leave them and see what they grow into.

If anyone serves you mashed potatoes in our rat party, definitely do not eat them. First of all, rap party, that would be amazing. I'm all in on that. Chris, did your school participate in the Philadelphia area Molde symposium? Yes. Yeah. I think I might have cheated. I had a tendency to do my work at the last minute at that age.

And when I say that age, I mean up through college. And, uh, you know, through the ringer.com, sure. I think I might have, like, gone to the mold store and been like, I need, I need to bring in a ringer. Like, I, I just, no, but this is, I'm going to, I'm going to go after this, but there was a thing. I'm curious if any Philadelphia listeners, kids say this is still a thing, but, like, it was in elementary school, science thing, across school called the mold symposium where you do a

controlled experiment, and you would, like, talk about it with kids from other schools. It's true. And my experiment. Isn't it incredible that anybody from Philadelphia is alive that we were like, let's expose you to spores on a. on a massive level. Chris should not have stayed in the humanities because my experiment was, I'm going to take two jars.

I'm going to put a piece of bread in both jars. In one jar, I'm going to pour water, and the other jar I'm going to pour whole milk. I wonder which one will grow mold. Dude, I thought I was fucking, I thought I was Mary Curie. I thought I was really, really figuring something out. All right, Dr. House.

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I'm probably going to ask you this on After the Thrones anyway, but it's going to be by this point, by that point, we'll know, you know. So I want you, if you could just help me out. Sure. With this trial that's obviously coming next week with the trial, but Circe's trial and it's Loris's trial. What are they on trial for?

I'm actually like, I kind of know, but I would think it's like a useful, like, can we just reset the stage? because I think that in the show, they were going so hard towards, it's going to be trial-by combats, we're never going to have to worry about this. And now I kind of feel like there's like

some procedural things going on. But for our listeners, from people who might be more casual listeners, what is going on there? Right. So essentially, the high sparrow needed to get these two powerful families out of the way. And his path to doing that was to find,

legal loopholes that he could exploit. Sins basically. Right, exactly. So for Loris, distressingly and unfortunately, it's the fact that he's gay. And Oliver, who was one of the AIDS, had Little Fingers brothel, and who had basically been having an affair with Loris, he ratted him out. So Loris denied these charges of, I believe, the term they use on the show is buggery. and Oliver came in and ratted him out.

Marjorie had defended Loris and said that he had not actually committed these transgressions. And so that that was what she. She went in for perjury, basically for lines to cover Loris. Cersie, in a side chat with the high sparrow, he actually does bring up the charge of incest with Jamie specifically. I don't know if he ever says Jamie's name, but he does bring up the fact that her children might be bastards and illegitimate. claimants and so we know that he knows about the rumors about their parentage but specifically Lansel is the thing that she is actually there for because Lansel ratted her out he was like yeah we had sex and Lansel is her cousin but he has she had sex with Lansel when she was with

Joffrey is what the implication there is she was still married to Robert Robert oh yes and and Lansel as we know was also the one who gave Robert the skin of wine that he was drinking before he got gouged by the boar. So does he just take that? Is he just like if I hadn't given him the wine he would have gotten the, he would have been faster on his feet or was there something in the wine that drugged him? You know, on the show, I think that's always been open to interpretation whether there was because obviously poison has come into play many different times in the series, whether there

was actually basically the wine was spiked or whether it was just, you know, very kind of the king's squire to make sure that he never lacked refreshment. I believe that's the way it's phrased in season one. So just that he was tipsy enough. So essentially, when the high sparrow confronts her before she does her walk of atonement, she denies the Jamie charge because she needs to protect her children, but she does fess up to fornication in the adulterous relationship with Lancel. Right.

She had no choice because he had already ratted her out. She's making a trade-off. Exactly. Who does Circe have defending her at this point? like there's no Daniel Kaffey who's coming to defender against you know I mean I mean the only people who are truly on her side at this point are Kiwern the Franken Mountain and you know in theory Jamie but as you noted based on the preview for the finale he's not actually going to arrive in time yeah right you know book readers will well well first of all the charges against all of the people that we just went through vastly more complicated and layered in the book there are numerous other people who have slept with these people which is also part of it. But Jamie at this point in the books is pissed at Circe. He's like, she's like come back and help me and he's basically like, nah, because he feels betrayed.

You know, there's what's one of the one of his like identifying self-identifications is that he is weirdly more honorable than someone like Ned who, of course, in this canon at this point, has a bastard. And we've talked about that before with Jamie saying like, no, I want to win clean. Right. Exactly. And he's like, I've only ever slept with Circe. She's the only woman I've been with. So weirdly, like, that's my own sort of code, my own sort of honor. And when he finds out that she has slept with somebody else in the books, he's devastated. So he's not actually like rushing back to help her. I don't know, man. I know. I know that would cut you to the core. Okay. So that's what we've got going on in King's Landing. And then it looks like we have to, and we also have to put bows on. What are some of the outstanding things we have to put bows on? First of all, where the hell is brand? Right. What is he going to be? Is he still on a solo mission or is he going to be reunited with his family, go somewhere else that we don't know about yet?

Brianna's out on the road, presumably on her way to Sanzah. Melisandra and Davos seem like they have unfinished business. I'd say so. What am I forgetting? Varis is MIA or at least on a trip that we don't know about. Yeah, I think we'll be looking to find out more about Little Finger's motivations, though I think we can all guess what they are on the one. one hand, he, he wants power, right? There's, there's the great line from an earlier seasoner.

I believe it's Varis says, like, he'd burn the kingdom to the ground if he could be king of the ashes. Yeah, right. And that has never changed. But he also is in love with Sansa. Yes. Like, he loved her mother. We don't know how truly sorry he is or whether or not this is all part of a larger

plant, right? Sure. And whether he feels like he's brought the army for Sansa, he can, he can manipulate. Right. I'm the warden of the east. You could be the warden of the north. Let's unite these, these two of these seven kingdoms, right? And I've protected you before. I can protect you again. That's the case he could potentially make. I think that, you know, we were starting to debate on after the thrones whether there's going to be tension between Sanzah and John, not only because of the, the why didn't you tell me you had these other troops element, but is there going to be a

power struggle? I think we all agree. Well, I think that you could argue that as much as a power struggle, it'll be an attention struggle because John's obviously going to be looking north because he knows what's up there. And she's going to be looking south because if she's on a vengeance run here, the obvious people who's next on her kill list are south, are in the south. Right. And I think that that is probably why John is not going to fight very hard for control of Winterfell because it's just not important to him. He's focused on the larger stakes and the looming battle yet to come. Brann is one person who might come in and affect this power dynamic, as you just noted, the other person is Aria, like, not because she'd have a better claim than Brand, but just because of what those

relationships are like for those siblings. Ariya in one of Yara's Go Fast Boats, like zipping past on the waves. Like, I'm here! I got here. Record time. Exactly. I'm still refusing to let go on my dream of Aria, somehow being the one who takes out Wald or Frey, I just want it desperately. You know, I think the big mysteries at this point are Varis and how does CERC, safe herself. Like, those are the two questions sort of hanging over the finale in my mind. I think that there's the obvious, like, will Danny finally get on the boats question?

But that just sort of seems like a when not if thing at this point. Yeah, it's been a long spring training for a while. Yeah, I know. She's, you know, pitch counts becoming a problem. She's got to get on the mound. Do you think that there's a chance? Let me float a theory to you. Sure.

Veris. We think that he's off looking for support. He's a mermaid. Yes. That's my favorite theory. Strong theory. When he left, when he parted away with Tyrion, he basically said. Isn't that like he wants the dragons to melt the north so that the world is flooded and then he is like the merman king?

Yeah. That's a good one. That's solid work. That would be dope if George R. Martin was like, yep. Great news for Yaron. Maybe Varus is the one who wants Uron's big cock after all that. Boats for the water. But way back in the same.

in season two when Tyrion was preparing for Blackwater for Stannis, Varis started to hint at his own history, to hint it, it was a little while before we actually got the full reveal, but to hint at what had happened to him when he was, as he says, when I was cut. Yeah. And he essentially says, I can't imagine anything more dangerous than Stanis Barathean sitting on the Iron Throne because he's, his best pal is a red priestess, and there's nothing more dangerous.

Yeah, and didn't he basically say as much to Canvara? Well, so that's the thing, right? Like, let's think back to that encounter with the flame of truth, Kinvara, how sort of haunted he appeared to be by what she was saying to him and the undertones of their conversation. And then the next thing we know, he's bouncing. Well, she also says, you better make sure you are keeping it 100 about being with DeNaris here. Because Varus seems to, I think that there was a popular,

the popular opinion about Veris, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that I mean, he may have articulated this himself, and I'm just forgetting, is it like to restore the Targaryian dynasty? Well, yes and no. His line to Ned that I think is the key is when Ned says, who do you serve? This is when Barrists and he says, The realm, someone must, right?

So for a long time, that has seemed to align with restoring the Targaryan dynasty and putting Danny on the throne. But he's not necessarily just team Targaryen. He's team whatever is best for this universe. And maybe he doesn't think that's Danny anymore because she is now, the red priestesses are out there, the priests and priestesses are out there. Preaching for her. And we know it's just established at this point that he thinks that is, he said there's

nothing more dangerous than someone on the Iron Throne who has blood magic, you know, at his or her side. So why would he be supporting Danny? Maybe he left and said he was going to look for allies, but maybe he really is ditching that team. And is it a total coincidence that the masters attacked the second he left? I don't know, man. I'm just saying.

There's something about him that feels very faceless man. I mean, I know he's not, obviously, but I do wonder what else there is to Varus in terms of like, he always seems to pop up at the right time. He's very unruffled by all of this. and he seems to exist outside of, you know, like just the way he's always got his hands, you know, in his cloak and stuff. I don't, he's obviously not a merman, but there might be something, I don't know. So the last thing I wanted to ask him, we'll wrap up here, is, I wanted to kind of get a sense of where your head is at as a book reader.

And as one of these people who have been reading these books for such a long time over and over again, who's invested so much in the history, who's now, you've now gone past the books with the show. and whether you're like where your head is at in terms of you know has this show changed your relationship has the show this season changed your relationship to your anticipation for the new book and do you think that Martin should actually deviate from where Benny Off and Weiss are going I mean obviously they're probably all going to the same endpoint right but what do you what do you've been thinking about that recently you know it's it's difficult to sort of have like full mastery of my own feelings about it because I I do truly and deeply

love the show. And so I think it would be different if I had this just incredible affection for an attachment to the books and then the show was this like fun side gig. Like the X-Men movies or something. Yeah. But I I adore the show and I cherish it and I always have. And so it's not necessarily that I feel like I'm being cheated of something by finding out certain things on the show first. It's just like this is, I'm trying as best as I can to view them as connected but standalone experiences. And I think that the depth of the world, like the number of storylines and characters and plots in the books that just are not even on the show and never will be. Yeah. Like there will always be something new and joyful to discover there.

even the things that are going to overlap. Yeah. You know, Ramsey's going to die in the book, right? Does Sansa is going to be the one to kill him? They're not in the same place right now in the book. She is off doing something completely different in a different part of the world. Was the experience of watching John come back or seeing the Battle of Winterfell, things that haven't happened in the books yet?

Because Red Wedding, all these other things you've watched, you're like, that's executing, that's an adaption of something that I already knew, right? I always think about No Country for Old Men. end with this because it's such a it's the it was the exact execution of the way you wanted that book to look like the people as soon as they announced the casting for those parts you're like well now I cannot see anyone else but these people when I'm reading this book right and it was just perfect it was a note perfect adaptation and then with this you know it's largely been pretty faithful to the books I mean I would say six 60 sex 65 within reason you know it's more like

leaving stuff out, but plot-wise, it's happened, right? Yeah, I don't know. That might be a little high, that number. I think that that was true for the first couple seasons when it was, the first couple seasons were very faithful adaptations of the first couple books. And then starting with the splitting book three into seasons three and four, some stuff got stretched, some stuff got condensed. And then after that, it's really diverted in pretty notable ways.

So how does that feel? I'm fine with it. I mean, there are, occasionally, the trick that I've settled on is the second viewing. Because there's always that moment when you first see something and you really care and you're just like, this is not right. Right. And that's not even, that's not true necessarily. What is right? It's just, it's not what I was expecting or bracing for.

And so it doesn't feel right. And then once you know what you're getting, you can watch it again and just enjoy it and view it and judge it on its own merits. This is how it always was with the Harry Potter movies. Like, I have spent, I have read the Harry Potter books more than I have done literally anything in my life. I don't care how insane in that sounds. This is true. And watching those movies each time they came out, like I would go at midnight. I was so excited.

I couldn't wait, even though I knew they were going to fucking gut me. Like, I knew they were going to be huge letdowns. And I would leave infuriated. And then I would go back the next day and see it. And I would say, that was great. That was dope. That was super fun. And so it's sort of the same.

And now maybe the book occupies that role moving forward. You know, when I read Wins of Winter, maybe there's going to be a moment where I'm like, this isn't as good as the matter of Winterfell when you watch John versus a hundred horses. Right. Is like Jane, you know, fake aria, like killing Ramsey as exciting? Is Mance Raider who's still kicking it in the books, killing Ramsey as exciting? Like, are the people who are around him at this point in the story killing him as exciting as the moment that we had with Sansa last night?

Maybe not. Yeah. It just might not feel as right. use that word again. But I think that the nature of the books. Who knows what would happen with these books even if the show itself hadn't become such a huge conversation topic. A lot of people are saying that

some of the stuff that's happening in the television season does feel like paying back some of the, not the sins of the show, but the darkness that the show puts you through last season. It's almost like redeeming itself. But who knows what would have happened in those stories if that had never happened? And I don't mean for the better. It could be for the better for the worse. It's sort of free of judgment there.

You're right. And I think the question you asked a few minutes ago that I didn't actually answer is like, should he, should George R. Martin adjust his plans? Like what if he changes his mind? I mean, so, so here's a thing. Like, I hope he doesn't, right? I would hope that he writes the story that he's always intended to write. However, two things. One, this is not a guy who has figured everything out, just clearly. And it has never been that. kind of writer, I think. It's also not human nature to be able to just exist in a vacuum, right? It just isn't. So if he's seeing something play out on his screen and he's seeing how fans are reacting to it, like, just because he once wrote in the margins of a manuscript, no, when his editor

said, is this Benjand Stark about Cold Hands? Doesn't mean, he doesn't have to like die on that hill. Yeah. It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't mean that he can't still make Cold Hands Benjit. Maybe he's like, wow, you know what? I never thought that made sense, but I see it and it's awesome and I'm going to do it. Like, go ahead. Like, find your bliss, man. Write the story that you want to write. I spent a couple years being like, dude, finish this story. Like, please, we're all waiting. And now I just feel bad for him. And again, that's not an anti-show stance because I love the show and I'm glad it's happening. I was thinking about this especially with John because I was thinking about what it will look like when John's back in the book, assuming he is. But the amount of nuance you can do with a character who's

come back from that's essentially kit harrington i mean you can change the performance you can modulate stuff you but he is based they've decided to have him basically be a guy who lived and died and came back to life and is now still the same person right so that is actually a perfect example of why i think people who care about the books will be able to enjoy them no matter what because the question that you asked on after the thrones this week of like is john you know less just like barrack said he's less we don't really know the show hasn't really answered that But the book will definitively and with total clarity. We will spend hundreds of pages inside his head coming to understand what his outlook on the world is.

And so that will always be fulfilling. I can't wait for you to summarize it for me. All right. That's all the time we have. Thank you so much to Mallory Rubin for joining us this week on The Watch. We'll be back probably Thursday with a re-up. Of course, after the Thrones next Sunday, it's our final one. Super Size.

Jason Concepcion's coming out. Mallory, me, Andy. Thank you so much to everybody who was watched it this season, by the way. It's been very fun to do, and it's been very fun to do with Mal. Aw, it's been great, Christopher. Burn it down, sirs. Thanks so much. Thanks to Black Tucks.

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