The Watch - Ep. 62: 'Suicide Squad' Prep, 'The Night Of,' and 'Jason Bourne'

Episode Date: August 2, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss Canadian cuisine before jumping into the anticipation surrounding 'Suicide Squad.' Then, they give their thoughts on what 'The Night Of' would be with the late James Gandolfini in the starring role (20:25) and what went wrong with 'Jason Bourne' (36:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before we get started with this episode of The Watch, just wanted to mention that the ringer now has merch. Go to bitly.com slash ringer merch, where you can find shirts and hoodies. A portion of the proceeds from each purchase will benefit charity water, a nonprofit organization that provides clean and safe drinking water to people in developing nations. Again, go to B-I-T-L-Y dot com slash ringer merch. Cop the FITS! I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan, and I'm an editor for The Ringer.com, and joining me on the other line. Just waiting for that cup of soup to cool. It's Andy Greenwald! Wow, Chekhov's cup noodles, man. I know. I didn't see that coming. Who would have thought the way the camera lovingly lingered on steaming water emerging from a wall tap, that it would come back to haunt us? Doesn't he explain?

Like, you just, first of all, did not know that about baby oil and soup. No, is that true? I don't know. What if, you know, Chris, we're going to talk about a lot of stuff today, and this is our podcast that we like to, where we talk about stuff. But what if we just radically rejiggered our whole podcast? Facebook Live of me throwing cups of noodles at you? No, if we just were like the House Stuff Works slash Snopes.com of fictional television. Yeah, I think that's it.

Where we like, does that really happen? We are due a pivot. either towards radical, transparent confessional vulnerability or throwing cup of noodles at each other and burning each other's skin off. Frankly, I think they're just two sides of the same coin. Me too, I know, I agree. Andy, it's your back from Canada.

We're going to talk about the night of, we're going to talk about Jason Bourne. And then we have some bits and bobs and odds and ends to discuss. I'm kind of, for some reason, really want to talk to you about the fact that the killer Sam's town is 10 years old. but I have nothing prepared on that. You know, it's just that... We don't need to talk too much about it.

I mostly want to talk about the fact that no band but the killers would announce their inevitable 10-year anniversary re-release of a record by calling it the decennial, the decennial. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't even know that was a word. Of course it's a word, but in the same way where it's just like, you don't need to do full Latin. Everyone knows it's just been 10 years. But of course, the killers announced Samtown's decentennial. I can't even do it right.

I can't even do it right. But God bless the killer. It's just one of the... things that with with with with a lot of these 10 year anniversaries um that just make me wildly uncomfortable because it's not like i feel it was that long ago that the album itself came out you know what chris it was uh it was 10 years ago it was decential years ago get away um Chris I want to say I think we should also say up front that we you know we are nothing if not responsive and uh I'm I'm a little behind. I promise that I would watch the end of Stranger Things because I love Stranger Things and I'm excited to watch the rest of the series and talk about it with you. But due to my Canadian idol, IDY-L-L, not the singing competition they had in Canada for a few years. I did not finish the show. So we're not talking about that. And also, I didn't finish Preacher. I know people probably want to talk about Preacher, which, by the way, surprise ended its season last night, the decentennial of when it started. But I, but I, but I, but I, but, I'm going to talk about Preacher, which, by the way, surprise ended its season last night, but I'm going to, but I was, but I, but I

I didn't get to it yet. Which is a bummer because I really like watching that show. So I just want to apologize to everyone because people I think are really disappointed in me. I do have one question for you about Stranger Things, which you don't have to have seen. How many have you seen now? Five or six? Okay. So basically the same amount as last week, right?

Yeah, but do you like the way I put the or in to make it seem like I'd watch? Or six! I've noticed that Stranger Things. has now become like it just seems from reading the internet that this is the favorite show of the summer that it is almost universally beloved

you are nothing if not well actually you're so many more things but you first you were a critic well first they came for the critics yes I once was a critic yes go on can I challenge you oh god I love it yeah write your concern troll

are we sure it's good what is your what is the hook of your are we sure stranger things is good piece what's well is there anything wrong with it yeah i mean i could construct that but i don't know if i believe it but if i was you know have you read the internet well that's why i'm not doing that sort of thing anymore frankly but um no i mean i think that the concern and this is the concern i had after the first episode but it was basically um put aside after the two three four and five or six we don't know or six, is that the show is essentially a Frankenstein's monster of nostalgic pleasure hits, you know, that it is so, the stitching is so brilliant in the way it connects things that

people really love to watch or remember from things they actually love more, that it's just, you don't notice the fact that it's essentially all derivative and that maybe there is no there there. Yeah. But that would be the, that would be the piece to write. But I, you know, just in general, I really am suspect of critical adventures to basically deny a pleasure. And because you can't kind of, you can't have it both ways. You can't be like, oh, they illegitimately made this pleasurable, deeply engaging show while admitting that it's pleasurable and deeply engaging. The fact that it's hard enough to make a pleasurable and deeply engaging show that you don't need to worry about the first part of it. That's basically my takeaway.

Basically, the head for that, the headline, that's what we call it in the edit biz. that would be what about Bono though Yeah, no, exactly It's essentially What about Bono though? Do you feel Sometimes whenever

Whenever you hit the decibel level I think about like the people Who are just like jogging Or maybe just trying to sneak in A little earbud act They just dove into a pond Because they were so scared of whatever was coming Or like maybe

Maybe you know maybe there are people who like work in in nurseries or something or in like... The library of Congress. Yeah. Right. And they're looking over the Declaration of Independence

and they're going, what a, what a balono though. Except they're looking it over with like, they're looking it over with a little pen. And when you said that,

they jumped forward and the pen tore through the original copy of the Declaration of Independence. Yeah. And National Treasure 3. Yeah, right. Tate.

Wow. Big response to National Treasure 3. Okay, I'm glad we could, We could do that little exercise. Can I jump in one other thing before we do the other business that we have? Yeah, let's talk about the mechanics of comedy. Wait. I want to ask you, fuck it.

You know what, it's our show. Can I ask you something? Yeah, this is wild. Late Summer Watch. What's up with the fucking Moose Heart, dog? How was that? Oh. Oh, you want to know about my Canada time?

Let's know. I want to know about the food, though, because I, as somebody who, upon your recommendation, became obsessed with Vicer. chef's night chef's night out and obviously the Quebec episode of parts unknown

or is it no reason yeah parts unknown right yeah the Anthony Bourdain CNN show is probably one of the two or three best he's done to me on CNN

and that stars the major players in those are the guys who do Joe Beef and Liverpool House in Montreal and you had a chance to go to Montreal and you were like damn I

I'm trying to trying to get that Joe Beef look up, though. What about Joe Beef, though? It's like there are two poles in the universe. On one shoulder is Joe Beef, and the other shoulder is Carabwono. Yeah. It's like beef or Buono.

What will it be? And you got a chance to eat at Liverpool House, right? Yeah, and the next, and then the next night, I was doing, like, Quebec-A-Apple-Brandy shots with the dude from Joe Beef. Like, that city really escalates.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, Take me on a little bit of a culinary adventure. I think if you could give us a slightly shorter version in your Grub Street piece, that would be great. You know. Chris, I just want to say that I highly recommend anyone going to visit our neighbors to the north, going to visit the beautiful city of Montreal. I think that in terms of dining and nightlife, that city might be the brick Tamlin with a trident of North American cities. in that it really, really, really escalates quickly. You know?

Like, it is such a, there's like so much going on there. It's a rich, you know, rich in history and culture. But it's also pretty small. Yeah. So I think it really, really pops off. Right. So I was there for the Montreal for the Just for Lafts comedy festival, which is a huge deal, did not realize that.

Very fun to be there. Did a master of nun panel. Those dudes were great fun. Great dressers, by the way. Alan Yang and Aziz. Really, Aziz just had like the slip-on Gucci loafers. I was like, that's a good look. I know you're telling a good story and you're being humble, but it sounds a little bit

like when you talk like this, it kind of sounds like Donald Trump in my head. We're like, Montreal, great town. Aziz, I'm sorry, lovely loafers and a lovely man, but Carabono. Yeah, but also like go back to my tweet three years ago where I was savaging him. Yeah, right. No, all I wanted to say was, yeah, I went to Liverpool House, which is the Joe B dude's other restaurant. First night, it's bellied up to the bar. Best dish I had all year. Chris, you know what it was? It was a summer aoli with fresh vegetables. Really? It wasn't even the meat

thing. Cooking there. The produce there is so good. But the next night, I got invited to go along to a dinner that a bunch of people who are much more connected and much more wealthy than I am, we're having at the back of this other restaurant that I can't name because apparently the dish they served us is not legal. Oh, I love when that happens. It's a restaurant that is basically devoted to like northern cuisine, like Canadian cuisine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like revenant shit, right? And you should, literally. And so we showed up and the chef was just like,

what do you want to drink? We'll take care of you. This is like my dream experience. And they just started bringing out plates. And there was like wild strawberries with house cured lardo. And there was like cold lobster boulebeys and smoked lamb shoulder. But then he was just like, here's the piece de resistance. We're like, what is it? And he was like, friends, this is seared wild Yukon moose heart.

Those are I've only ever had one of those words I think associated with the meal I won't tell you which one Yeah And it was like in a sauce of like fresh juniper berries Are you a You're an adventurous eater

Right? Yeah Where do you draw the line In terms of How How Yukon do you get You know after Just how blown out does it get

In the kitchen After this great night and this great experience. I did Google the chef and what he what he preaches and he practices. And he is definitely a meth dealer from Nova Scotia. So full air quotes, he's not really a chef. What he is is a fur trapper who, no, beaver, like, I don't think I could eat like beaver tail. Like, you know, like, and then apparently one of his other specialties, and this will pretty much narrow down the chef if you like want to do deep chef Googling. One of his specialties is like, he,

He likes to find the part of the windpipe in large animals and serve that? See, I think that that would be, that would, that would be a challenge for me. I'll pretty much eat anything at least once. But windpipe is, has like, even just like, if you were just like, the middle second, like the lower mouth, I would probably be more into it than wind pipe. Yeah. Because pipe. Would you have gotten down with them? Would you, would you have gotten down with the moose heart?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I would feel like I was like, I was taking that Moose's soul. And that that Moose's soul would power me through my 40s. Chewing it, the texture definitely tasted like the cinematography in the opening scene of the Revenant. Like, it definitely felt like, like, like, Chivo was like working the dolly. The 360 panorama at Magic Hour?

That's how it felt. with like people falling out of trees okay like when you least expected it okay but all I want to but it is a really it is a really great town and it's really fun and I will say because I to try to make bring this back down to earth for people who are

food tourists like like we aspire to be sometimes and you watch shows like Bourdain's or vices and you're like I would like to experience that but I don't know how to like to get the Swannier VIP life I think that it is very getable in a city like Montreal, which is, you know, an hour flight from New York, and it was really fun. It's a great town. Food was really good. That's what I wanted to say. Fantastic. Also some comedy. Yeah.

Mostly food. Yeah. Let's not talk about comedy. Do you want to talk about comedy? No, I want to ask you one other thing that I asked on Twitter before we get into the business. I just want to ask you, so Suicide Squad is opening this week, right? Yes. Yeah. I am not going to see this film. I'll be honest with all of our listeners. Do you have any relationship with this group of? characters? No. Okay. No. I mean, I can't even there's so many characters. One of them seems to be a crocodile. I don't understand. But maybe it's good. You like David Ayer, right? What if there was a character that was just a

moose heart? Dude, I would have defeated that character. Is that Yukon Mooseheart coming through? Oh no! Run away, Joker! I don't think they'd run away. I think they'd break out the fork. That actually wasn't that funny. I just want to talk to you about Suicide Squad, the poster. I'm very fascinated by this because you know there's basically top billing you know means like in your contract you get billed above the title on the posters and that's something

yeah yeah yeah yeah I saw that you were really worked up about Kenaman and this cast is enormous and there are five names above above the title and now number one is Will Smith obviously because you know he's in an ensemble movie that he's not the face of so obviously the least he's going to get his top billing

Jared Leto is second because he plays the Joker and so if you play the Joker in a film you get second billing understood. Third is Margo Robbie. And obviously anyone who can withstand the lascivious prose of the dude who wrote that Vanity Fair profile deserves all the praise you get.

Well, anybody who's been watching Suicide Squad promo stuff knows that she's going to be the breakout star of this. Right. They certainly want you to believe that, yes. Skip it no better. You're like, I know better.

I know better. I think I think Killer Crocs really the breakout star of this. But fifth build is Viola Davis. Terrific. tremendous actor, you know, riding a hot streak right now because of the, you know, Emmy nominations and whatever. But let's talk about that four slot, okay? The cleanup spot.

Let's talk about the cleanup hitter. Yeah. The cleanup hitter is the god Joel Kinnaman. Now, people when I tweeted this saying, what sort of leverage or bribery did Joel Kinnaman's agents exact to get top billing on Suicide Squad? I'm not hating on Joel. everyone was like, that dude was the best thing in the killing. My response to that was, no shit.

I watched more of the killing than you did, friends. I know he was the best thing in it. But he's not exactly riding high off of the Robocop reboot. No. That's the story. I want the oral history of Joel Kinnaman getting clean up spot. I saw your tweet. I didn't like it.

I don't favor it. You don't respond, by the way. You don't respond to Twitter engagement. You don't. But I disagreed with your concern trolling there because who are you putting in there instead? Huh. Okay. All right.

I see what you're saying there. So it's like Jai Courtney? First of all, no, they should definitely, he should be listed as Alan Smithy. You know what I mean? Like they should be hiding his involvement in this time. It's like Sam Worthington's like and a player to be trained. named later like I just thought it was...

Jay Courtney is the poor man Sam Worthington. Is it not Jai? I thought it was it spelled Jai. This is the here's the thing. You know who you know what? America doesn't care. If there's a movie star and you're like is it J or Jai

then he's not a movie star. That's what I'm saying. I agree with you a thousand percent. So I see what you're saying and I appreciate the fact that you're if there's you're there to check up on whether Kinneman is getting ahead of himself. But I just don't know who else in suicide squad you're putting above him if you're going to put another

name up there. His character is the leader of the suicide squad. Technically, yes. He should be higher. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, if we're going by Mastad, sure. But I also want to talk about the fact that this was the part that for, here's the oral

history. Here's why the story becomes like really juicy is that Tom Hardy was initially announced in this role. Yeah. Now, if we're talking about the bribery that Joel Kinnaman's agent used to get top billing, what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what was used to get tom hardy to agree to this in the first place and wasn't didn't tom hardy drop out so that he could make his 19th century dutch east india trading miniseries with his dad wouldn't you yeah that sounds amazing yeah by the way do you want to make a dutch east india trading

company miniseries dad is the field of dreams the 21st century yeah um i think i think i feel like tom hardy's dad is named like dutch or something like that. No, his name is like chips. Chips. That's right. Chips Hardy. We got to,

let's get through some of this other stuff here. Actually, for a second, let's just take a quick break from our sponsor. And then we'll come back and we'll talk about Night of and we'll talk about

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Shipping is free in the U.S. in Canada and you can save up to $8 a pair with the Miandi subscription plan. Get the subscription or a single pair and get 20% off your first order when you go to meandies.com slash watch. That's meandies.com slash watch for 20% off your first order. Meandies.com slash W-A-T-C-H. Okay, Andy, this was, the night of continues to plug along with just probably the most consistently rich, harrowing experience on television. right now. Stranger Things is delightful. Preacher is zany and manic and exciting every week. But the night of, you know, we've talked about it. Alison Herman did a really nice piece about how

it had. Basically, this was like the closest thing we've come to Golden Age television in quite a long time. And another thing that Allison wrote about today that I thought was pretty interesting was the show taking us into a different realm of and taking a new look at the legal system in America on this episode this week. And I thought that that was pretty fascinating because when you have a show that you have a limited amount of time, do you're not going to have to like set up characters for multiple seasons. You can have their fates decided in a short term environment. I think that weirdly gives you a lot of freedom because you can actually decide one week on the night of.

We're going to do a law and order episode or we're going to do a homicide life on the street episode as they did previously with like detective box or Oz or Oz. Yeah, or Oz. And that's one of the things. that I think subtly is quite brilliant about this show is it's got its framework, it's got its main story, it has its endpoint, theoretically. I don't know what that end point is. But within the context of that, they're allowed to experiment and deeply dive into these topics that, you know, previously it's something like the wire would take an entire season to investigate. But in the night of, they're just doing such a incredible. incredible job of like in and out in and out and then when they go out they keep that the law the legal system the judicial like the corrections facility the detectives the infrastructure around like all this stuff is still there but the way that this show is able to push things to the foreground pull them to the background the immigrant experience like everything about it is just i i don't know i can't

say enough good things about it well let's talk about the nuts and bolts i mean the the The fact that the show makes sure to give a few moments every time it's relevant to the fact that if you are being held in Rikers waiting arraignment or waiting to make a plea deal or waiting for your trial, you have to get on a bus and you're driven there and then you're driven back. And you're in two different worlds. And that is a not insignificant trip and it has a psychological toll. And, you know, it was not 1% or 5% of the last night's hour-long runtime, but it was there. And it added to Nas's experience and it added to the viewer's experience. And similarly, what this show does so well is something that People v. O.J. Simpson did really well too earlier in the year, which is take this idea of guilt or innocence, which to many people, that's the binary of the criminal justice system. And then basically make the case, all of it is stories, all of it is narrative, which one do you believe in which one is going to win.

And the show has been operating in that world up to now. And that was what Tertura, John Stone, you know, the lawyer had been saying from the very beginning. To Nas, when he was basically like, I don't care what you did or didn't do. We need to come up with a better story that's going to win. The flip side of that was really spelled out in pretty brilliant detail. I think this may have been my favorite episode yet in the fourth episode last night. We're recording this on Monday. When they work out this plea deal.

And we hear a lot of that plea deals. People take them all the time. And generally, they're like, oh, that's a good. good idea. It's a good deal or whatever. You have to stand up and say that you did it. And what would that mean? What would that cost? Almost forget, in that second, almost forget the fact that he's basically giving up his life until he's 30, whatever he was, 35.

He had to stand up in front of his family and say he murdered someone that he probably almost definitely didn't murder. And I thought that was just really compelling to watch. I think the show is going to some great places. It's just entertaining. I had two questions for you about this episode before we move on. One, with the appearance of Max Cassella as a halfway house dude and Ada Turturro, John Terturo's cousin, we remember from the Sopranos remake or something. No.

Who is left in the HBO Repertory Company that you would like to see? Frankly, I'm assuming they are all going to show up at some point or another. But who, honestly, who is left? Because, you know, I think we said this at the beginning of the season. The first piece I ever wrote for Granland, the day Granlin launch in June of 11 was about the HBO recycling company and how they reuse their actors. This is almost, it's, if the show wasn't so compelling and good and these actors didn't show up for scenes that were just like, you know, basically doing donuts. Yeah, Fisher Stevens showing up as a pharmacist. Right, right.

I mean, people are showing up because they believe in the material and it's good work and it's worthwhile. I mean, even Glenn Headley is, as Alison, the high-priced lawyer. Glenn Headley's been in movies since like the early 80s. You know? Yeah. She was in frigging Dr. Detroit and she's just out here being a defense attorney in this movie. Who is left? Who would you like to see?

From HBO specifically or just in general? No, from HBO specifically. From the people, you know, and don't say Brian Ben Ben, Ben. I know you want to say Brian Ben Ben Ben. I feel like Ransome is, this show is dying for some ransom. That is a great call. James Ransone, star of, he was Z. Biggie on the wire.

Yeah. He was, uh, he was, why am I blanking on the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the Pacific or Bata brothers? No, no, the David Simon one,

the Iraq War one. Oh, uh, Generation Kill. Yes, he was, he was in that as well. That's a good call.

We could, who would he be though? Like, I feel like, Ransone was up for the Kasella part. Yeah, he had the buzz on,

who's available on a Wednesday, um, or they were like, yeah, I don't think, I heard bad buzz on vinyl. Let's give it to Cassella. Maybe Ransone could be the guy who cures eczema.

Oh, that would be amazing. He's like some street healer? Yeah. I got, when they, when they pulled the plug on vinyl, Cassela was the one I felt bad for. He was pretty good.

He was really good. He was really having fun. He's one of the few people who was like on the right version of the show, even though the right version of the show didn't exist around him. Okay, so I had one other casting question for this before we move on from the night of. And this is one of those ones where I'm not going to take my answer off air because I have a definite opinion too. Okay. But I'm curious what you think about it.

As everyone knows, this was James Gandalfini's passion project. And I'm curious, you know, with all respect to his memory and his terrible pass is terribly untimely passing, how do you think his performance would have changed it? Like a great hypothetical. If James Gandalfini had survived and played John Stone. I've been thinking about this a lot. Because I've been wondering whether or not, not Gandalfini I wasn't actually thinking about. I was thinking about De Niro.

Because De Niro was up, there was a, there was a, there was going to maybe fill in for Gandalfini as like, oh, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. And I think you can make an argument that if De Niro does this role,

it completely changes the way we look at the last section of his career. Like if De Niro comes through and does this role and just absolutely, you know, is just like, remember me, you know, remember Jake Lamata, remember Jimmy Conway, remember Neil McCauley, all these parts that I've played, and does one more iconic role. It totally wipes out Rocky and Bullwinkle and all this bullshit. And every time he's played like a boxing trainer and some weird movie for the last 10 years. And it is, it's almost like I love to Turo in this.

And now I can't imagine anybody else doing it. And in some ways, I can't really imagine to. Turro scratching his feet with a chopstick. I mean, De Niro doing that. But it's like, it seems like I can't believe they left. It would be like somebody turning down a chance. It would be like turning down a chance to play with the Warriors right now or something. Like if you had done it, it just would have changed the way people viewed your second half of your career.

I don't disagree. That's all news to me. I didn't know that. Like I think he was going to do it as like, this sucks. This was his passion project. I want to make sure in his memory. it goes on. I'll step in and do it. Because the Riz Ahmed was like there was a moment where we were going to do it. Gandalfini passed away. I thought the whole project was over. Then there was a

second where I was about to get on a plane because they were like, we have De Niro. And they were like, stop, don't come. And then they were like, come back. We've got to Turro. It's interesting. You know, I think the main thing that throws me. And I wish De Niro would take something like this because it's a mini-series. It's essentially the same amount of time you would spend on a feature film. maybe a little bit more, but he certainly has it in him, and he certainly clearly likes to work, and he certainly wouldn't have to travel away from his hometown to film this thing. Purely thinking about the piece, like the show,

having the attorney be 72 years old changes it. Yeah, that's true. Because one of the things that is so good about Turturo, and it would work for Gandalfini, too, is this air of resignation, a professional embarrassment and humiliation. But that only plays because there's a sense that it still could turn, but maybe only he believes it. Whereas if De Niro is doing it,

there's like a, his whole life was basically a wash. It's closer. It's right on the edge. It's like where, did you ever see the verdict, the Paul Simon movie? The David, the David Mamet one.

It's like at the edge of, are you still in your middle age or not? Because I do think that that makes a difference in the perception of the character. It's especially got to do with whatever semblance of vanity he still has about, you know, taking, about fixing his skin and everything.

It's like it's got to do with like you're not, you haven't just like given yourself up to old old age yet. I wish, frankly, if De Niro had done it, he had done it in the same character from the intern. Yeah, where he just showed up in a clean suit every day. You know, it was just like first one in the office and kind of old school with his methods,

but everyone fell in love with him, especially when he found out that Glenn Headley's husband was cheating on her. the thing that was interesting to me about the Gandalfini is that a lot of people who really only knew Gandalfini from, obviously, from his most iconic performances, Tony Soprano and then maybe, you know, earlier on in true romance or something like that is that some people were writing on Twitter that they just kind of, it's hard for him to buy him in this role because the role is so downtrodden. And Gandalfini is such a powerful alpha kind of presence or, you know, that people think of him, especially because of his sheer physical size. charisma that he had because of it. But to people who thought that, I would direct them to two things. That spoke really, really well of him as an actor and, you know, basically as an artist.

His last, I don't know if it was his last movie, but certainly his last starring role is in the film Enough Said, which is with Julia Louis Dreyfus. And you know I love this movie. Yeah. I love that movie. And if you want to see what really, really incredible actors, these two, you know, you know, two beloved TV icons are Julie Lou Dreyfus and Gandalfini see them in this movie. And the more you read about Gandalfini off camera and, you know, and people who knew him, this part in which he plays basically kind of a physically awkward nerd, like middle-aged nerd,

who has a very hard time with people and with women. He wanted to play that direction. He was more comfortable doing that than he was like throwing Patricia Arquette through a glass wall, which is, you know, fair enough, aren't we all? But I think it speaks really high. highly of him that he wanted to return to TV to play this guy who was absolutely at the bottom of the ladder as opposed to what he was used to doing, you know, and I think it would have been a very interesting thing for him to once again contrast that physical strength with the part as written, you know, certainly with the physical ailments that the character has. I think that also you have to under, you have to, this is a part and, you know, calling him

John Stone and it's so much of his mannerisms and his characteristics are fleshed out by Titoro's performance and the certain like even just like these odd little gestures that Tataro does. Whereas Gandalfini I think would have inevitably been a much more stoic presence. And it would have been interesting actually to see that the combination of Gandalfini's almost like Easter Island statue-ness combined with Riz Ahmed because I think Taturro is like doing a lot of dribbling when Riz Ahmed is on screen. And so Ahmed's performance is becoming increasingly physical, and it's becoming increasingly reactive but also internalized. And it would have been interesting to see two performers doing that at the same time.

I wonder if it would have been good for the show or not. Because I don't, I think that part of, somebody there has to be the engine of Price's dialogue. And Tuturo obviously is just like I, he's doing a thing, but he's like, I know that I am in a Richard Price work. and I understand how these people talk. But it's not just that. The thing about Chaturis performance that I find so striking is he's communicating something that is so specific and so delicate and kind of hard to pull off, basically, which is on screen he is constantly humiliated and shamed.

Yes. But he's almost using that to his advantage. He has pride. You know, the way he played the scene when he's taking the video in front of the halfway house, he you would think he's be pushed back on his heels but he's almost past that point you know he knows how things work like his his face when that guy who knows him so well is screening him you know to go into the courthouse every time it's it's pretty amazing performance because it's this it's this it's this term usually means something else but there's a passive aggression to him that is really striking you know and i think this was an alison's piece too we're now four episodes in there are four to go this doesn't feel like the halfway point you know in many of the still feels like the prologue. I don't think it's supposed to. I think it's supposed to feel,

I think that people everywhere are watching this show, just like they're watching Stranger Things, and they're like, these are eight-hour movies. These aren't, and you're not supposed to be like, I think that, I think with Stranger Things, there are definite parts of the season where you could be like, you could have ended it here, and that would have been an incredible three, three episodes.

So, I mean, chop some things in it would have been like a two-and-a-hour movie. but these two shows to me are really out there exploring, like reviving my kind of excitement and faith in what you can do with a multi-hour single-story television show. It's good. I mean, it's just I, it was nice of you when you called me a critic before because the thing I wanted to end on for a night of is, gosh, it's good. I really like watching it.

Let's put that on the poster. Let's talk a little bit about Jason Borden. We talked so much about the series on last Thursday on the re-up that I don't know that we have like a ton to add, but now that people have generally had a chance to see it, I thought we could go into it a little bit. I wrote a thing on The Ringer today about the way that, and we talked about this on Thursday, but the way that the tension between the greengrass Damon side of things and the Gilroy side of things, kind of shaped the best of born and then led to what we have now, which is kind of a franchise that, even though it made $60 million, doesn't really feel necessary anymore.

And I guess I was just sort of wondering, I mean, I honestly just really want to talk about, like, the stupid things like, why is Vincent Kassell French in this? Like, why did they cast him as, like, a French guy who is lecturing people about being an American patriot? And stuff like that, the like random things like, why is Alicia Vakander wearing a Bluetooth? And why does she drive a Chevy Volt or whatever? You want to do the important questions. Yeah, but did you have any Jason Bourne spoiler-friendly things you wanted to say? I was crushed.

I was so disappointed by this movie. I took it very personally, which probably isn't a good idea when it comes to big budget brand extensions. But, you know, the narrative that surrounded the Bourne franchise, in the last few years, especially as everyone has worked as hard as they could to throw Tony Gilroy and the Bourne legacy under the biggest bus possible, is that Greengrass and Damon are the true stewards of this franchise, and they understand it, and they're not coming back unless they have something to say. And let me tell you something, if you see Jason Bourne, it's clear that no one has anything to say. And I'm not saying that just because Bourne himself only has like, you know, 20 lines of

dialogue. Yeah, he has 25 lines of dialogue. But beyond that, what shocked me, really, and I mean this, shocked me. I'm talking like Joe Biden here. Literally, folks, look at the transcript. I'm shocked. These guys, Greengrass and Damon, don't seem to understand anything about what makes this character of this franchise great at all. And, you know, set aside for a moment that this is probably one of the weakest scripts I can remember seeing in a big budget film. And the big budget films are not known for their scripts, but Greengrass wrote this movie, and I'm putting the word wrote in quotes with his longtime editor. The dialogue is just soul-crushing when it exists.

It's so bad. Everything is on the nose and obvious. You know, from Tommy Lee Jones always being like, well, he's going to find out the truth. You can't handle that truth. It's like, we've heard that line before. But the whole point of Bourne, and this is, you know, what you said in your piece, he's

not some like, righteous face-punching truth warrior. He's a messy, messed up janitor who fights with magazines when he has to. And the fact that this movie ends in Las Vegas proof they don't get it, that it ends with another endless car chase proof they don't get it, and that he defeats the villain by just pummeling him to death

is just really, really disappointing. And I'm not even going to put a caveat on it and be like, as much as anyone can get disappointed by an action movie, because I really was disappointed by it. You know, the... It definitely felt like... You know how Die Hard 3 was the script, it was a script called Simon Says

that they bought and turned into a diehard movie? Yeah. That's what the internet stuff in this movie feels like. Like there was a screenplay about the CIA strong arming a Facebook style company into letting them use their data. And they're like, cool. We'll throw the Athens car chase in the beginning and the Vegas car chase at the end. And some don't talk about fight club business in the middle. And we'll be out.

You know? And that's it. And that's the thing that I, it's so fascinating to watch this. and the born legacy. I watched the born legacy again this weekend, just like kind of scanning through it. It's completely different versions of this world. One is this idea that this guy's life should be pain.

He is an amnesiac who does knuckle pushups and is never going to be happy and it wants to be off the grid. And in a weird way, it almost is like they wouldn't leave Matt Damon alone. You know, like Matt Damon had to go do pull-ups and get ready and come back and be like, look at my abs.

I'm disgusting. You know, and then, like, fight and do, like, four chases and make a ton of money. And then Gilroy is like, I said this in the piece, but it's like, Gilroy wants to make crimes and misdemeanors. Yeah. Gilroy wants a bunch of people sitting around offices and on phones having these kind of chess match dialogues. And in the second film of the series, when everybody seemed to be pulling in the same direction, I watched, I mean, God damn, Born Supremacy is so good.

It is so good. They don't make movies like that anymore because you can't make movies like that. It's like once every 15 years does everything happen in the right way where you can make a Hollywood movie that good? Like just that sheerly entertaining. So it's just kind of fascinating and see when it would be like if you wanted to make a sequel to Armageddon and you were like, the thing about Armageddon is I'm more interested in drilling. That's that's right. That's very well said.

It's exactly right. It's like what's the prequel? like what's Bruce Willis really thinking when he's drilling before the Armaged? But you know, it's like, who cares? This thing where they were like, in all the press they've done for the movie too, which by the way, after having seen it and you read back, a lot of the press is basically just imagine the quotes that are attributed to Greengrass and Damon, not coming from Greengrass and Damon, but emerging from the mouth of the shrugging emoji, and then it makes a lot more sense.

Right. Right. But this core idea that they seem to have latched on to from the first three movies is people really want to know more about this guy's past. Guess what? No, we don't. We know we don't. Origin stories aren't interesting, especially when they've been handled and put to bed after three movies, one starring Albert Finney.

We don't need anymore. You know what's not interesting? His dad invented the program. And it's like... Dads! Fuck Dads, man. I'm so tired of dads. Like, your dad did it?

Wait. No, come on. What if your dad is Chips Hardy and he wants to make a Dutch East India Trading Company miniseries with you for FX? My dad is like, if he's like a U. Yukon Moose Heart chef, make the movie. But if it's just like, my dad was also an agent and he made me into an agent, it's like, I don't care.

Come on, man. You're Jason born. They wiped your brain. You were on the kems. You were on the blues and the greens. We're also just moving backwards. And if you want to make a case to pivot this going forward, you've got to do better. And this idea that what was worthwhile about the first movies was mysteries in his past and being

manipulated and yet another program and yet another. none of that was interesting. And yet, bizarrely, the world remains interesting and worthy of exploration. And it's kind of... I, for one, really hope that Jason Bourne and Aaron Cross meet in a snowbound cabin. Me too. I hope they just sip soup in a cabin for like an hour and a half. Like that would be amazing.

The soup is hot. The soup is hot. Written by Tony Gilroy, directed by Steve McQueen, like on some old hunger-ish. That's a way to reboot it. You're going up against the British government. who is unshakable. First of all, little Bobby,

a little hunger for you guys. People are psyched for that. I mean, but we should, we should talk about the fact that, like, sometimes you can tell the flatness of a movie

by the supporting performances. And generally it's because people who come on for supporting performances in big budget movies that maybe were a little bit... Are you about to slander Queen Alicia? No, no.

Let me, let me work here. Give me some space in the lane. Because people who show up for like a few days, maybe they don't get the whole script, and they do their best. I want to slander young prince Riz Ahmed,

first of all. who we just love in the night of, and I love and everything I've ever seen him in, you can't prove to me he knew what movie he was making. Potentially he was making a better movie. Potentially, he was making a worse movie. But it's not clear what movie he was making. I thought he had the patter of tech CEO down pretty well. Yeah, no, he's doing his thing, but it's so marginalized and inessential and unimportant.

Similarly, how incredible was it when he goes into like the Capitol Grill to meet Tommy Ely Jones, head of the CIA? And he's like, we have to stop meeting. So then why are you meeting at Ruth's Chris? Like, what are you doing? I know. It's just like Mark Zuckerberg and William Tenet don't meet at friggin' like legal seafood. Don't do that.

And if they did, if they did, they would at least order the bloomin onion. You know what I mean? Like they wouldn't storm out. They wouldn't storm out. Oh, man. just think about the laziness of like someone writing the script and being like we need a real Tommy Lee Jones type here. And it's just like, oh, okay. Like can we revive him like and get him in this role?

Or how about the Queen Julia Stiles? You know I ride for Julia. Only me and Sam Donski apparently ride for Julia Stiles. But if you're going to carry something from the other movies, that relationship is a fine thing to carry. They just disgraced her. They disgraced the queen in this movie. You know who does not ride? You know who does not ride?

Julia Stiles, because she does not ride a motorcycle. Not well. She doesn't stay on it. Okay, but you want me to go to the Danish girl to Alicia? God damn it. It's just like, come on, come on, you know? This idea that this quote-unquote genius's plan is to have him be controlled by the CIA again because that's what he secretly wants, that just doesn't mean anything.

And it's not interesting for the character. So it just becomes punching and mush, you know, which is also, which is something I was served in Montreal, by the way, and tasted better than it sounds. It's just disappointing. So I think your piece really gets at it. The winner of this, the winner of this series is Tony Gilroy. Like, he comes out looking the best, right, after this misfire. Yeah, now that dude is like, I'm fixing Rogue One.

Ask about me. Is he fixing Rogue One? Is that true? Yeah, remember? That's the whole thing. Is they're like, oh, no, reshoots. And then they're, because we were like, oh, shit, reshoots on Rogue One, but that looks, the movie looks good already.

And then it's like reshoots and like some polishing by Tony Gilroy. You know, maybe that news is so good that it short-circuited my brain and I couldn't remember it until you mentioned it again. Like, I was just so excited to learn about it another time. So what, before we go on this, I mean, because I don't want to be a total downer. I mean, let me ask you, let me ask you something. Yeah. Let me ask you something.

You want a sixth? No. I mean, definitely not. If the rules for making these movies are that it has to be Damon and Greengrass, no, I don't trust them to make the movie. Now, to have Damon back in the part, yes, but you would have to just bring in someone who has just a radically different idea for it and a way to pivot it forward,

because, by the way, there's more things in your secret files is not at all interesting. But if you basically... What if I told you that Jason Bourne was just the tip of the iceberg? I do wonder, we should definitely do like a side list of like the top six actors we want to be in the next movie to be the ones in the panic room to be like, oh my God, that's Jason Bourne. Like who else could do that? Or do you know who could be the weirdest choice? I also want to know just like the history.

There's a really great gallery of people who are in all of these movies. The people who are working in like the ops rooms. So you've got Walton Gaggins is in identity Really? Yeah, he's like putting Him and Josh Hamilton are in identity Throwing maps up

because it's like pre-Google maps Then in two The Queen Michelle Monaghan is up in there Wow Saying like I got eyes on target And then in four of course Our boy Corey Stole is like Is the one that Edward Norton says

Maybe you're in the wrong meeting I just all of our favorite actors have at one time or another given someone a sit rep. Like that's just what they're about. That's what it means to be a working actor in Hollywood. I kind of was asking, though, like, for Born 6, who is the most absurd choice to deliver the news that, oh my God, that's Jason Bourne? My first thought was maybe Scottish comedian Billy Connolly.

Kevin Hart. I think that would be a good one. What about Maria Bamford? How would you feel about that? if lady dynamite herself. Bojack? Yeah. Bojack horseman's like, Dutch juice and porn.

I mean, I just think there are better ways to do it. You know, we can leave it on this. I just think that your point was right. If you just have to understand who the character is, that it's not about the punching. It's about the lengths he will go not to punch. And you basically make him the janitor. If there is, if he's just doing what he likes...

You'd rather not punch. If he's doing what he likes to do best, on the Greek border, just cold-cocking immigrants, sure, by the way, why not? Then have people try to mess with him and wake him up again, but it doesn't have anything to do with who he was. It's just that he's a weapon in the world. And the same way that, like, there are whole movies to be made about, like, you know, the nukes that went unattended or something when the Soviet Union fell. So he's basically a loose weapon in the world. People make a move for him.

And they're, you know, in which way is up and which way is down. That is essentially more interesting than the U.S. trying to like, you know, trying to clean out its pipes again because nobody cares about that. Yeah, I mean, we can, we can wrap it up. But I thought that there's that brief moment where it sounds like, he has an interaction with Julius Stiles where there's an illusion or a suggestion that he has helped her in the past with like leaks. And in the end of ultimatum, or in the beginning of ultimatum, rather, there's the Patty Concededine Guardian plot where, you know, he's trying to get information to him. Jason Bourne as Snowden is actually a cool movie. If Jason Bourne decided to just be part of society again and blow the lid off the CIA,

that's threatening. That's interesting. That's an interesting tension. But just to be like, I'm trying to be off the grid and you guys keep making me get back on Twitter. That's just stupid. Yeah, also because the other thing that you can do, I mean, I think people have said in the past, maybe even Gilroy said this, that killing Franco Patente's character in the beginning of two was in some ways a mistake because if that was like the love of his life,

and then they kind of missed her as a reason to motivate him or animate him. But why does no one then take the next thought, the kind of obvious thought, which is if he isn't like other action heroes, if he isn't some like stoic Rambo or Road Warrior type, he would fall in love again, even though he knows that person might get hurt. And that just makes it more dramatic and more interesting. So let him do something other than bare knuckle brawling in Albania. You know, why not? What does it hurt to let him try and be a person? It's, you know, we are coming at this from.

from fans of crime novels where obviously it doesn't cost $200 million to make another story, but you can always keep writing the stories. You can always keep pushing them and some of them can be good and some of them can be bad. At this point where this is a tent pole for the franchise and for the studio, I don't know if that's the case. But the main takeaway here is the international box office

receipts say that there will be another one, and I hope it's not terrible. That's all I want to say about it. I mean, he's saying never say never again. All right, Andy, that was great. We are not going to be together this Thursday. I don't think. There may be another watch pod this week. We'll see.

Otherwise, I will talk to you next Monday and we'll try and catch up on some of those shows that we were talking about. Maybe do some light previewing of shows to come. Yeah, I'm going to catch up. I'm going to watch some TV, guys. I promise. I used to be really good at watching TV,

and I'm going to do it again. All right, man. I'll talk to you soon. Great job, Bransky. Thanks again to Spotify, Discover Weekly for sponsoring us today. Discover Weekly allows you to lose yourself every week in the thrill of new music discovery.

Your Discover Weekly playlist is 30 songs you didn't know you loved yet, and you get a brand new, unique playlist every Monday, personalized to your taste. Go to Spotify.com slash Discover Weekly now to get your playlist.