The Watch - Ep. 64: Olympics, 'The Night Of,' and 'Mr. Robot'

Episode Date: August 8, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss NBC's Olympics coverage (6:00), the masterful acting on 'The Night Of' (16:00), the resurgence of 'Mr. Robot' (31:00), and Frank Ocean's missing album (40:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before we get started with this episode of The Watch, just wanted to mention that the ringer now has merch. Go to bitly.com slash ringer merch, where you can find shirts and hoodies, and a portion of the proceeds from each purchase will benefit charity water, a nonprofit organization that provides clean and save drinking water to people in developing nations. Again, go to B-I-T-L-Y dot com slash ringer merch, cop a hoodie for the earth. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor from The Ringer.com, and joining me on the other line,

blinded by the UV light. It's Andy Greenwald! Hey, man, the chopsticks worked well enough for me. How's it going, man? It's good to talk to you. We took a little breather. Yeah, I missed you on Thursday, you know? I had to have...

Yeah, no, it certainly seemed like you missed me a lot. I could tell. Look, we have to supply people with... content either way. This is the machine moves forward. I agree. And we both were traversing the continental U.S. this week. I spent time in our lovely hometown of Philadelphia, and you went to the windy city. Yeah, I went to Chicago for a friend's birthday party, and it was quite lovely. And shout out to a couple people said hi, said they were fans of the show, asked why I was in Chicago. And I was like, I'm, you know, I promise I'm not shooting Game of

Frone scenes behind your back. What would have been the weirdest, and or you could have given them that is also a little bit plausible. Like you were doing the ringer's oral history of Shalak. Or, no, actually, that's not even accurate. You're doing the ringer's oral history of the 22nd anniversary of the Lounge Jack's compilation benefit album. I was pre-posing for Dwayne Wade's statue that will be outside of the Bulls Stadium. You were just going to hand out Chance Four hats, just hoping that you could catch. Yeah.

It's a nice town, though. That's a great town. Yeah. Yeah, lovely time. Lovely time. So, Andy, we will talk, I think Thursday, when we do the re-up, it'll be a all-stranger things, everything, like recap of the rest of the season. Yeah, I'm really excited to knock this one out and talk about it.

You know, I have to say, that wasn't just small talk, because during my time in America, which is to say, any city other than the two where we live and spend most of our time, I heard a lot of, this is, okay, basically, let me do the Thomas Free. readman, New York Times column version of our podcast, where I take three things I overheard on like SEPTA as evidence of something larger in the world. Right. Right. But I heard a lot of chatter about stranger things in Philadelphia.

On SEPTA? I did hear a little on SEPTA. I took SEPTA down to the Phillies game and I heard some people chattering about it. But also at a restaurant. People, and it was interesting because it wasn't like, people weren't having a deep conversation about David Harbour's career or is Winona Ryder back or even like what's the next hot thing I have to see. It was just more like those are all our takes man leave that to the pros I know exactly I was about to walk up to him I don't you know I don't walk up to where you work and

knock the glasses off of your nose Benjamin Franklin impersonator the road not taken am I right no I but it was really just more like people talking about you know I don't know they were talking about the, where there's that news van again. And then they were like, oh, by the way, have you heard about stranger things? Like, I hear it's really good. And the thing about it that I finally realized, because we've spent a lot, we spent a lot of time talking about Netflix, the Netflix effect, and I used to write about it a bunch too. And I often came at it from a negative angle because I was thinking about old school TV. And I was thinking how it must be hard to be a Netflix consumer and just have all this stuff dumped on you left right and center and maybe

you know hard to find a way in or hard to remember that it exists but this was really myopic this is the kind of thinking ivory tower thinking Chris that Thomas L. Friedman really pushes back on when he rides and cabs around the world this is an incredible take because I'm talking about being able to keep up with stuff where they're like here's the here's the preview here's the you know the screeners or whatever we need the deadline it's debuting this day but the thing that I forget, the thing that keeps these shows fresh, but also keeps them low-key really successful, like Master of None or Stranger Things, it's just on the front page of your TV screen, basically. That's what I'm saying, man.

I feel like I made that. Yeah, I feel like really, this is, this is something I want to talk about much more with you. Were you about to say you feel like you made that point, which is a playway of saying, why don't you listen to your screen? No, no, no, I think I can't ever remember whether I'm telling you something on the podcast or in our personal lives, but I don't, I do feel like part of the reason why there was that wave of stranger things interest that weekend was similar to why people were giving, making a murderer chance over the holidays where it was just like, oh, well, I'm home. It's all, it's right

here. Like, I'm looking at Netflix. And Netflix has kind of lulled us all into, well, you come to Netflix and you can watch a friend's repeat or, you know, big shorts there or whatever. But you can, when those originals are there, people will give it a test run. And if you have something as immediately engaging as, as stranger things is in, it's so instantly itself. And you're like, oh, okay. That it's super engaging. And I, you know, again and again, we're going to talk about this with the night of.

I just, this eight episode thing is really the new skeleton key for a lot of stuff. I agree about that. I, you know who I want to talk to then? I want to talk to who is the pen and pixel of Netflix? in 2016. Like doing the sort of card that goes there? Yeah. Who does the album covers?

Because suddenly that becomes hugely important. And Stranger Things, you know, the original title was Montauk. Then they couldn't film it or said it in Montau because of tax credits. And they filmed in Atlanta. They set it in Indiana. The title grabs you. It's a little bit odd and clunky when you first hear it. But then it kind of works.

And of course it especially works with the font, you know. And the image that they created on there, they must. put more time and effort into that than the major labels do on album covers anymore. Well, I think that what you're saying, that's your window. I wonder whether or not there's a larger conversation to be had about Netflix essentially replicating the sensation of watching network television in the 80s, where people just sort of developed an affinity for the way they felt at the end of a Thursday night on NBC. So they knew for two hours they could just watch NBC or whatever.

and now it's like people have an affinity for the way watching several episodes of television on Netflix makes them feel. So they go to Netflix for that sensation and sometimes they find flaked or love and maybe it doesn't reach as big of an audience. And sometimes there's things like Stranger Things or House of Cards that becomes something of a phenomenon. Yeah, I mean, I think that the business strategy

is definitely to be the landing pad for people at the end of the day. And that was, that's, that's a different way of phrasing something that we've discussed before, which is that they are, you know, they're, they're in the Razorblade business. They're in the content business. And the goal is to spend as much of, as much funny money as they have, which is a considerable amount on just bulking up and having everything all the time forever. Yeah. So that you don't go elsewhere.

And that, you know, other people have written recently, because I think more and more people are noticing that they have very few movies now. although I think they're getting the Marvel movies now, which is a big deal. But they were losing a lot of the movies that they used to have, and they're losing a lot of the deals, because Amazon is paying to, you know, they're losing a lot of the, not the non-first-run episodes that they used to be getting

because Hulu's grabbing them and Amazon's grabbing them and networks are keeping them in-house more. So, yeah, they want to be the place where you could have everything. And I think they're also actively fighting the biggest impediment to watching TV in my life, which is just choice. paralysis, just exhaustion. Like, that if you want to watch TV at the end of a day to relax and to unwind,

you don't want to spend five to 25 minutes cycling through everything that's on Hulu, everything that's on Amazon, everything that's on crackle for Christ's sake. You just want to have something on. Well, so I read this, there was an article in the Times over the weekend, or maybe it was on Friday, and it was Jim Rutenberg in the New York Times, who's one of their media critics. And he was writing about Comcast and their enormous. bid, you know, the amount of money that they've put into the Olympics. And how much of it is kind of Comcast treating the Olympics like this massive treasure chest of

content to funnel into all their various things. And now, you know, like, there is actually an ad that's running with the Olympics about Comcast that is literally, it just, it just feels exactly like an Evil Corp ad. And I would say that's what it was, unless there was a a fucking Mr. Robot bit in the ad where it's like, you know, you can start a revolution. And it's a shot for Mr. Robot. And then it's a shot of the secret life of pets or whatever. And then it's a shot of all these other universal NBC properties.

And it's about how like you can experience all this whole world through your Xfinity box. And that Comcasts, the next step of what they're trying to do is create a guide to internet content. And basically that, that, that thing that I think people thought was going to happen 10 years ago where the internet was going to be in your cable box, this idea that you turn on your television and content is on there. And maybe it's coming from NBC Sports Network, live streaming of volleyball, and maybe it's Mr. Robot and maybe it's this, but that basically they're going to put up parameters around what you're seeing and just funnel it all in.

Yeah. That's interesting that it might be catching up. to the possibility now because I would say like one or two Olympics ago when NBC started like programming the different things on all of their various affiliated networks even if they're not sports affiliated networks you know so like there'll be something on USA or CNBC or Bravo or whatever I could roll with that I understood that but and I don't know if it's just a question of volume how many properties that company owns or the fact that I already feel or that I'm much old you know I'm four to eight years older than the last time we had this conversation,

or the fact that I already feel underwater, no Michael Phelps, from the pure number of choices that we have that I was just referring to in terms of entertainment on the night. But the thought of turning on the Olympics right now is exhausting to me. And I don't, because they're not making it easier.

Like I wish I could say, maybe I need to be like Special Agent Domit Piero and say, you know, into my magic all-seeing Foucauldian nightmare box and be like, show me when the women's national team is playing soccer, and then it'll just be on. But I don't want to go flipping for the NBC Sports Network when I want to finish Stranger Things,

and I don't even know where the NBC Sports Network is. Is this, am I being a Luddite, or am I the voice of the common man here? You and I are definitely children of the 1984 Olympics, and that, if anything, taught us how I think we're supposed to understand the Olympics, and I think NBC is still hanging on to that idea, which is that it's prime time television, that you go home after your school day or your work,

day and you make a dinner that you eat in front of the television and that you watch Carl Lewis and you watch Edwin-Moses and you watch Matt Biondi or whoever you know I don't even know if he was in 84 but like that woman who was the marathoner who came up late remember Mary Decker Slaney I was just talking about her man when she got tripped right she didn't Zola Bud tripped her Zola Bud who was like just missed the cutoff to make lethal weapon two's villain list yeah yeah that was low-key almost as big of an event in my childhood as the challenger like that's like got that is that iconic picture her being like, oh, why me? Remember?

Oh, yeah, I remember. I'm seared into my immature brain. Yeah, so that's like our concept of the Olympics is basically as this thing that takes place from seven or eight o'clock to to 11 o'clock every night for two weeks. And they pick the best bits of what would happen during the day and night and run them. And also it was in L.A., so it helped for the viewing. What NBC is doing now is kind of like a weird... It's both, right?

I think it's awful. I mean, I think what they're doing is basically withholding prime events from people. There's like, you know, if you can sign up for the app, but the app might be blacked out if it's a certain event. And like, there's so much stuff on so many different channels. And at the same time, APWire and most of Twitter is like, oh, yeah, you know, Gabby Douglas came in third or whatever. And you're like, shit. Well, now I, like, what am I going to do? Like, watch this later, even though I know it's going to happen or.

you know and and also like you could just stay off obviously Twitter but that's not really like practical for my job so and it's not really practical for the way most people experience the world now yeah that's it's it's interesting so it's it's almost like they're they're they're stuck they're still straddling both both sides of it because because i think that they're counting on people like my mom who's i i who's an olympic loves the Olympics and i was like did you do you care that all this stuff has already happened or that it's been spoiled and she's like, well, who's spoiling it for me? Exactly. That's a good point.

I guess I could. But, I mean, if you're not looking at your phone all day long, it's very easy to get to 8 o'clock and not know whether or not Simone Biles won. It's probably worth putting that into caveat that we're having this conversation. And we were pitching ourselves as the old people in this. But the truth is a lot, the majority of people who watch network television are older even than us. And, you know, it's the same thing. where we're living through this election, like, second by second, on Twitter and on poll tracker and on 538. But the thing that is still true is that campaign ads bought on the evening news are still one of the safest and best investments a campaign can make even in 2016.

Because, you know, the majority of voters are the older people who watch the news. So for NBC to do this with the Olympics probably still makes sense, but it does sound like they're, having, they're wanting to have it both ways. Whereas maybe in four years or certainly in eight years, you will be able to have the nonstop stream in a curated way. If it is, you know, that please, I don't know if it pleases everyone, but it gives everyone the opportunity to do what they want to do. Well, it would be the equivalent of, to me, it's like, what if they, you know, it's an American holiday now to watch March Madness at work. You know what I mean? Like it's, socially, it's just become acceptable that that first few days of the tournament,

is like everybody is basically like watching watching TVs in the lunchroom or watching streams on their computer. Imagine if they were like, if CBS was like, we're going to show a double header of the best two games that's already happened at 8 p.m.

And people were like, okay. You know, I mean, there might be a selection of people would be like, that would be quite convenient because I have a job that does not allow me to sit in a lunchroom or look at a computer screen all day. And I would get to watch, you know, North Carolina play whoever at 8 o'clock. But that's just not part of the fun.

And I think part of the fun of the Olympics, especially if it's in a relatively friendly time zone like Brazil, is the liveliness and the we're all watching together, and this is happeningness. This is something that, and that's something that I feel like is getting lost and I can't help, but maybe because of the advertising

or maybe because of everything else, feel like it's like Comcast trying to control people's experiences of things. Yeah, well, but that's also worth noting that that's what, they were always doing, but now we're bristling a little bit against it. Yes, right. Well, we're Mr. Robots, you know. We've experienced a few tastes of freedom and we've watched five episodes of Season 2 of Mr. Robot. Yeah, man. And we're going to talk about that. But you wanted to, you wanted to switch to Knight of first, right? Yeah, let's take a quick break and we'll start

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They'll refund you. Everything. Made in America. As a special offer to listeners of the watch, you can get $50 towards any mattress purchase by visiting www.carsper.com slash BSPN and using offer code BSPN. Terms and conditions apply. Okay, Andy, Night of Episode 5 was on last night. This show has kind of unequivocally for me has the belt. I don't know if... Wow.

I thought we agreed on Stranger Things. Well, I mean, but that's the thing we were saying about Stranger Things and the problem with Netflix shows is that obviously Strange. things has sort of been a sensation, but on a week-to-week basis of episodic television, I think that Night of continues to just go deeper and see wider and be more and more emotionally rewarding every week. Because you're enjoying that weekly experience. I will enjoy as an interesting way to put it.

Okay. You are consumed. I'm swallowing it. How about that? You are swallowing it in big, big chunks, and then downing castor. oil. That's how you're consuming it. The thing I wanted to talk about this week, and we've... A lot of consumption of things this week and a lot of oils.

Let's explore. Do you think that's a metaphor for America's dependence on the oil industry? I do. I do. Also, eight balls are just, you know, easier going down and they are coming out, I guess. I wanted to talk a little bit about the acting on this show. Okay. Because, you know, we've talked a lot about this, the limited series and how limited series has become attractive to really good actors because they, you know, they're not going to be signed up for an unending amount of, you know, episodic appearances. It works for Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson to put three or four really hard months into True Detective rather than come back every year for three or four months. And so you're getting like a huge, like, wave of talent hitting television. And I think it's starting, watching this show is,

I find the performance is almost uniformly wonderful. And I think a lot of this has to do with the writing. Richard Price and Steve's Alien are incredible writers. But when we talk about great acting on television, I realize that we're usually talking about the accumulation of time with a character. You know what I mean? Like we spend so much time with Kyle Chandler that he becomes Coach Taylor and we fall in love with Coach Taylor and people want Coach Taylor to be their husband or their dad or their coach or whatever.

And that is almost the goal of television acting is to create these indelible fixtures almost and erase the line between like what their performances and what their persona is on the show. But in an eight episode series and especially one like this one

that would be very hard to do because you know this show is eight episodes but it's tracking three different plot lines is tracking the prosecution, the defense and the prisoner and the prisoner's family. So the amount of emotion and the amount of depth that has to be conveyed economically on these shows

is very it's like it's a huge amount and i keep getting especially over these last two episodes i keep finding myself like absolutely transfixed especially on repeat viewings by what is being conveyed in these small scenes and you know we haven't had we we've talked a little bit about this but that you know we always loved noting when there's just like oh man that's that's that's that's going to be a moment that they play in somebody's Emmy reel or you'll look that up on YouTube in five years and you know I think say the words to me in this year from episode four is definitely one of them you know when he finally goes to to Michael K. Williams to get the protection that he needs and I thought that the prison waiting room the sort of

visiting room in prison where Tataro just says you know like you got to do what you got to do but like if they catch you and like the amount of empathy and heartbreak that he conveys in that line reading is it I watch it again man it was just like

it was really one of those like just time slows down moments I also think that's a sign of what good writing can do because the best kind of writing takes the harder choice or the surprising choice and then one ups it.

And what I mean is we're watching that scene and we're dying because we know what's happening. We know it's been foregrounded how hard this is for him physically. And he's not a hardened criminal yet despite his abdomen kicking proficiency. We also know, because it's, you know, it's very well directed like the series has been. We know the stakes. We know the cross, the eyelines in the room. The guards are watching. Other people are watching.

so we know, we feel the tension, you know, and as someone who has struggled with the ability to swallow like Advil on occasion, this made me sweat a little bit. Yeah. The obvious choice is to, well, the easy choice is just to quit out on that, you know, play the tension, is he going to get caught, is he not going to get caught, and, you know, walk away from there. The next choice would be, the next obvious choice would be,

have him get caught or have Turturro do something or interject or say something. The best choice and the one most consistent with these characters, and in this case also, I found it to be a, you know, it's surprising in the moment, but then you sort of feel that it's earned because you know these people is exactly how it played out.

And we're this whole con, you know, you were talking for a minute, I've been talking for two minutes, all about basically one line of dialogue. Yeah. And it's Turturo saying what you said, where he calls him on. He knew what was going on the whole time because it was obvious. but as you said, he had empathy for him. And that elevates the show. It elevates the scene, and it takes a great performance to do it.

And not just one performance. Everyone in that scene is great. I think, and I think the woman who plays Chandra is great, too. You know, it's really, it's these little moments when people can excel in the midst of an ensemble. And the only thing I'd push back on is, I don't think that line's going on anyone's Emmy reel. It's just the line that it should. You know what I mean? In Emmy Reel is going to be something, these things are going to be overlooked.

Right. The Emmy reel will happen in the last episode or two. Right. But, you know, they also don't even have to... The economy, I think, is key to, because the guys that they cast to play the dude who co-own the taxi medallion with his father... Yeah. ...are so compelling.

You know, they look interesting. They have gravity on screen. And it explained... It gives us so much about this world. you know, with the one guy, I don't know if he's Russian or Eastern European, but he is in on this cab business and thus in on the life, in on their family lives of these Pakistani guys. Well, it's also the lines between friendship and obligation and self-interest.

I mean, those guys are very, are relatively kind to him, all things being equal. You know, the swallowing scene, there's a lot being made about the Examo, which I think is, you know, obviously a choice for the show. And it's they really like, I think obviously it's building towards something. I wouldn't have spent so much time on it, if not.

But the eczema, the swallowing, obviously, like, you can tell the physical transformation that Rez Ahmed's character is going through. And I was thinking about this with, you know, like even the cat and everything else. that the underlying thing that this show is also studying, aside from the criminal justice system, is everything that we have to do to survive day to day, especially in a place like New York, but generally anywhere. And, you know, you made a joke about swallowing an Advil, but you think about, you know, John Totoro's trading legal work for sex to satisfy his urges because he's so disgusted with himself that he can't really probably put himself forward to date, you know, and, um, and, um, just in general. I mean, like people, we live in a world where people like take painkillers to get through

their day and take sleeping pills to go to sleep at night and take like anti-exiety medication to get through situations that are stressful and everything that people have to go through in their adult lives to kind of increasingly prop up their, their crumbling bodies and how in some ways that in the relationship between that and the way in which these systems prop up the crumbling New York City. that kind of depth in writing and the connections that the writing is making for me now is really quite masterful. I mean, it's quite, and it's quite unique in television these days. When you were talking about, when you started by saying you wanted to talk about the acting,

I thought you were going to go briefly in another direction because I thought you were going to be, I thought maybe you were as curious as I was about the nature of the casting call for the stunt dong in the autopsy scene. And my thought is this. I wonder if the casting director, you know, basically has, clearly someone who's worked for HBO before. And, you know, there's this wonderful relationship that HBO has with its extended family of supporting actors. And, you know, we saw our man Bodie from the Wireback this week. We saw Max Cassella last week. So my question to you is, when there was one more plum part left, I think we didn't actually

see the plums. Do you think, do you think like Paul Ben Victor got a call or like Wendell Pierce got a call where they're like, look, look, look family. Like, were any of the Shriver brothers available? Right. I'm like, we want, we want to make you a part of this because this is really, this is, this is old home week, you know, like everyone's involved. And they're like, okay, cool, like, what do I have to do? Like record executive, mafioso, cop. And they're like, well, you're going to be a corpse. And it's like, oh, okay, it's been a while since I've done that. That seems like an easy day at the office. It's like, so what am I going to have to do? Will I have a, you know, gross gunshot wound or anything? It's like, really, no, just Jeannie Berlin is going to drop a

manila folder on your dick. Like, is that, is that cool? Now, when we do our, like, you know, backstage podcast, like inside the actor studio of, like, the working New York actor, we could have people on who are just like, that would be a great Tuesday, you know, to get that part. But, but God, God bless him, you know? Like, people got to work. People got to work. This episode, I'm curious what you think of this. I'm curious what people who have been watching the show think.

I want to preface this by saying, my feelings about the show have not changed at all. I'm in no way out on it or anything. But this was the episode that I felt like was, it's inevitable, and I knew it was coming. This was the pivot episode for me. Yeah, I kind of felt like this was, yeah, go ahead. I know exactly what you're going to say. This is the episode where it was. went from being, you know, this granular, immersive, disquieting deep dive into procedure and

into this world and the chip paint of the precinct building and Rikers, this is when it pivoted into being a TV show or began the pivot. And that's fine because it's a TV show. But this was the one where, you know, they, because it's eight episodes, the amount of time they could just spend doing the slow sink in was probably capped at half the series, right?

And I would even argue that the first episode is so supercharged with insanity and plot that that almost doesn't count. It's almost like two, three, four was the sink in. This is the one where, you know, the heroic defense attorneys team up. This is the one where our hero reveals

new depths. I don't know if that's the right word, but, you know, he suddenly becomes, in many ways, a different guy. And it, you can't say it happened overnight, but essentially it kind of did. He, you know, the Michael K. Williams' character is kind of Superman of prison in a way. And a lot, you know, just his complete dominance over everything started to feel a little bit strong for me. Yeah. So, and then the interesting, and then, and then, on Tarturo just playing hero ball, you know, like basically tracking down a dude named Dwayne Reed.

Yeah. Which if you live in New York and that's your name, you should change your name. You're like, you should change your name. You should change your name. You should change your name to CVS because that is a lot less common in this city. But do you know what I mean? I hope this isn't coming across as a necessarily criticism. In fact, it's sort of interesting just from a structural point of view to know.

Well, it's funny you should mention it because I was thinking about True Detective Season 1. And this is right around the episode in that. I know you obviously had mixed feelings about that in the sense that you didn't like it. But around episode six is where Russ Cole turns into super detective. And kind of like so for five episodes culminating with that episode, I think season, episode five is the one where it's three different timelines collapsing in on each other. It's 95, 2002, 2012 timelines all being shot at the same time. in the next episode it's back in 2002 but it's like when Russ

puts together starts to put everything together and then it ends going towards the Carcosa finale and I feel like on a lighter on a slightly less like you know hyperbolic level

that's what's gonna happen here is that these guys they're gonna have to solve the case quote unquote you know that's okay it's a TV show yeah it's fine and it always was I mean you know Fisher Stevens is having, he hasn't had this much fun since Short Circuit too,

but pharmacists don't talk like that. You know what I mean? Like, they're rescuing the cat. That's gilding the lily. Like, there are these little details, but that's what makes it fun. You know, the thing about True Detective is a worthwhile comparison, I think,

because I didn't like the deep dive nonsense, and I say nonsense with affection, because I like the nonsense in the Night of a lot. My favorite episode of True Detective season one was episode six, which was the second and the last one, where they were just cops. Yeah. Where they just were on the same team. And it was basically, you know, a mismatched buddy cop, not comedy, but it was a cop show.

It wasn't so much about like, he's good and I'm bad, but I'm bad and he's good kind of stuff. And it was like, it was like, just like reveries on heat lightning and the nature of time. It was just like, these are, you know, top notch actors being shot beautifully, just solving a crime. And that was fine. Whereas I've liked, it's almost the inverse of this, where I like everything else so much. I'm loath to move into the next phase of it. Do you think that... But that said, let me...

The other thing about this episode that was awesome and underrated and sort of lost in a lot of the rest of it is that the scene where Bill Camp just detectives some shit was awesome. Yeah, the Sharpie scene? The Sharpie scene. Like that is just... I loved it. Also, it was such a...

I thought that... I know that's going to sound weird because he's plotting a murder happening. but looking at him doing that with the map was just such as like a tactile love letter to New York City like these bridges and these streets and these train lines and the you know like all this stuff that

that these little connections that happen I was like oh man like what a completely unique place watching him do that To be fair a kid from Queens who's told in the West Village to go to the beach is not going to the Bronx just like I feel like He probably should have been arrested anyway at that point.

We never really dove into just all the transportation mistakes he made that night. Part of this is this does flip towards Robot, though, for me. And we can kind of spin it from there. Because one of the things I was thinking about with Robot is the non-show, the sort of cloud that hangs around the show that's not the show's fault and not anything wrong with the actual story of the show, which is the understanding that this is season two, there could be a however season X, Y, Z,

and also that they have kind of come up with this visual language for the show where pretty much even the most mundane interaction between characters has to take place in this hyper-styled world. And whether or not, people have you like talked about the the running time of the episodes or whatever i mean i don't think that that i think that i wonder whether or not people are also responding to i'm not sure where to look here or i'm not sure how to manage my emotional arc with these episodes because it's such a distinctive point of view that you wind up like this many hours within that world

is almost taxing in and of itself Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, that's another thing that is a potential byproduct of Sam directing every episode because everything, it is so completely hermetically sealed in terms of aesthetic this year. I find it, you know, I find that really engaging because it's always really, really exciting to look at even when I find it a little draggy like last week. I mean, I found this week to be, and when I say this week, I mean, we're talking about last week. Wednesday's episode, which we didn't get a chance to talk about.

I found it a huge improvement on the previous week. It, not only that, it actually made me feel a lot more confident about the show in general, because it made me feel like the real culprit that dragged down that episode was what I, I think it's two part. I think part one is what I, what I suspected, which is that, you know, he really is making a 10, 12-hour movie this year. And if it breaks, when you cut up, when you slice up the pie, if one of the slices is a little misshapen, that's just the way it's going to sluged.

twice. I think the other part of it, and there'll be interesting, and I have no inside knowledge of this, it's just something I'm generally curious about. You have to bring in the larger blend, the larger filter for the context of the show, which is, you know, he had his idea for the show based on a screenplay he had written, which meant that he went into the show having an idea of a beginning, middle, and end. And obviously, there's a lot of wiggle room between that and places to expand it and shorten it and change it.

But between season one and season two, USA completely. remade itself in the image of the show when all-in Mr. Robot is the lodestar for the network now. You know, if going into the season, and he's never said this to going into season one, and Sam's never said this to me, I don't know if he said it in any context, but like, maybe he thought, I can't believe they're letting me get away with this. If we're lucky, we'll get three seasons to tell this story. USA doesn't want three seasons of the show. USA wants five plus seasons of the show.

So, and again, I don't know that. I would assume so, because networks always want to monetize their. you know, it's an Emmy-nominated show, and USA never really had those. So what we might be seeing is something very familiar from other shows, which is figuring out the pace of unspooling what's left, in addition to adding things that maybe weren't there before. So it's a feeling of disorientation, not unlike what Elliott himself is feeling,

in that we don't know where we are in the story anymore. Right. And in the first season, which was really about one action, we did. Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. That is, I think that that's sort of what I was getting at. I happen to really enjoy Sam's filmmaking, and I really enjoy the music cues and the atmosphere and the obvious homagees that he's making

to different filmmakers with different shots. But I think that's what you're getting at about the roadmap not being as clear. To take away the element of surprise that happened when that show came on and just how it felt like it was basically coming out of nowhere, the lack of... it's like those mid-seasons of loss where you're like, what are we doing? Now we're doing this? Okay.

And you have to just get your head around it. Yeah. And I think you also have to unlearn some things, too, if you can, about what we expect from narrative TV and what we expect from answers. Because, you know, you and I had a long talk about the previous week's episode, which was critical about aspects of it. And I completely forgot to mention the fact that that episode began with an insane, invented like 80s VHS horror movie about the slaughter of the bourgeoisie.

Like that is such a weird idea and they actually made this short film and they put it out there and that's where the Mr. Robot mask comes from. I'm like, I don't care if it's 75 minutes. I'll take that in my mainstream entertainment diet. Similarly, this week's episode, they fucked around and went to China. Like they didn't really film it in China, but they did a pretty good job faking it and making me feel like they were, they just, you know, took a jet plane off of, away from the script, away from expectation, in a way that was very, very disorienting.

And they gave B.D. Wong more to do. They gave Grace, they gave Grace Gummer more to do. I thought she was really good in this episode. She was really good. The clock, like the scene with the clocks and the way that that scene played out. And also just the fact that those two characters who could be very one-dimensional, if you let them, got to be be just a little bit more filled out, I thought was great.

And I was actually like, you're really like, you're like, what is happening? Are we, this, is this scene really happening? And that is the hardest, one of the hardest things to do is to string people along. And if you've got people basically being like, is this really happening the way I'm seeing it or the way these characters are seeing it?

That's such a hard thing to represent on screen. It is. and I think, and also the shootout at the end was just so, it was shot in a way that was so surprising and unsettling. It was really thrilling. It blacked out. Like that's the other advantage of being able to basically call your shot and carve up your pie the way you want.

Sometimes you get the slice in a really good place that keeps people on edge, as they did this week. And I think going away from this episode, one concern and one positive for where we are going forward, because the truth is we don't know where we are. But one concern I have is, and you mentioned Lost, here's the thing with Lost. As soon as you start to answer mysteries, they become less interesting. There's almost no way to make, you know, once something becomes concrete,

it loses the sort of the spongy possibility that makes watching TV or engaging with this stuff fun. So if we really are down to this place where Philip Price and White Rose's real identity, both of whom have public faces, of very prominent faces in government and in business, but seem to be doing something very Machiavellian on the sly. If we're really heading to a place where it's a global conspiracy, well, you know, that's ultimately limiting because it's not as exciting as what we hoped or what we imagined.

Going back to what I said before, if there really are four seasons left, then I bet we're going someplace else after that. Yeah, probably right. The positive I have going into it was I was really happy to see Eliot's altruism return. you remember Yeah, that was a major part of the first season.

Yeah. Yes. And we thought it was going to be a case of the week kind of thing. Exactly right. The first episode has him hacking the coffee shop owner who's a pedophile. And I remember, I think I wrote this in the review where we talked about it on the podcast. We were like, oh, how clever. Because, you know, this will fit right in on USA because there's something bigger or more artistic going on.

But there's a case of the week procedural element to the show. He never did that again. That was just the first week. So to remind us that even. though the Mr. Robot character seems to be responsible for the hack, the idea of like saving the world or saving people is just, is a hardwired into Elliot, even if it gets him beat up.

You know, do you think Ray is like surprised if someone looked at his website? No, I think that the, Ray, what was the name of the drug dealer in the first season? Oh, God. You know, I was just thinking about this last night. I don't remember, but I'll look it up while you talk.

I was thinking about whether or not, like, that guy, whether or not Ray's character was, like, a fitting antagonist. And, you know, I think that there's, like, a good... It's a, it's Vera. It's a good sort of metaphor for the internet, which is, like, here's this thing, but don't look too hard. And it's a good... It's a good sort of moment for Elliot to be, like,

I have so much power, and it's all about, like, whether or not like the power will ultimately corrupt me and you look at the dark net and what people are using it for it's to buy and sell molly and AK 47s um that's not you know that's that's not very and it's you're like what you're saying is right it's like Elliot needs to find the like sort of moral the true north that he that he has inside of him and that's been dulled for a long time mostly by addiction and insanity but also he keeps he keeps opening doors the you know the fundamental idea of a hacker is that you've break down these doors that you feel are arbitrary or you feel are unfair.

He talks about, you know, the power he felt in doing that in his first hack in the library. And in the Vera plot line in that incredible episode from season one that ended with the loss of Shayla, who I still miss on the show, he literally opened every door in a prison and look what came running out. Yeah, right. This idea that you can you can let, you can open Pandora's box, but then control what you take out of it and how it's used is is ridiculous. And, you know, it, he, I like it when the show steers into that, that contradiction and

let's, let's, let's Rami Malik play it. And I like the fact that this week didn't, because these other things are happening, there really wasn't that much time to think about, oh, guess what, he's really in prison this whole time, you know, because I'm, I'm pretty exhausted by that. Yeah. Well, I want to keep you, I don't want you to say something about the 24 hours you spent last week waiting for Frank Ocean. to release an album? You know what? I was blissfully,

professionally and personally not obligated to do that. Other people were handling that. And also, Frank's just one of those guys that I like quite a bit, but don't feel the need to be right there

when the rockets take off. You know, like I can just watch the... I'm like my mom with the Olympics with Frank Ocean. Just let me know when it happened. You know, I thought it was very interesting that we have now turned

it kind of reminded me of the way people do like NBA free agency and the trade deadlines the way we do it where it's basically you create a huge narrative around something that hasn't happened and the ramification it's everything but the thing more or less and Frank is definitely

responsible like any idea that where it's like you're saying like oh fuck Frank's fans for like wanting his album I mean he's building speakers or whatever he's building on Apple Music, you know what I mean? Like, it's, there's obviously some signal to be interested in him. But it's interesting, it was fascinating to me to see the kind of whole surprise album release Gambit blow up on itself a little bit.

Yeah. Where would you, like, one to ten, how, how much are you anticipating Boys Don't Cry? I got to be honest. Like, I don't even know if I rate, like, because I just, just, I'll be interested in hearing it when I hear it. I don't, I think that he is... But you don't feel that way about Pablo. What?

Like you, with Pablo, you were like, where's the feed? Do you have the rip? Oh, I was a 30. I was a 30. Exactly. I mean, like, so it does exist. It's just not existing with Frank. Oh, that's what I mean.

What I mean is, I think that he is unquestionably an enormous talent and a fascinating talent. And I, you know, and I think that those two things are almost equal in this, in this current landscape and in the conversation we're having because people want to talk about him and they're interested in him because of what he represents and what he could be as much as what he is. And it's weird to relate it to the thing I was just saying about Mr. Robot, but here it is. Because as long as he doesn't release this album, everyone will be in love with it, you know, until it becomes a thing.

And that thing will have to be wrestled with not just in the 10 minutes after it goes live on Apple Music or whatever, but in the, you know, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 months afterwards. I really, really like Channel Orange a lot. I don't listen to it very often. And I almost want to maintain my low expectations because I want to be surprised and entertained by what he releases and not pre-disappointed by it. Because people are out there saying that he's going to save R&B or he's going to, you know, he's a vanguard of a new kind of mainstream meets indie African-American music and that he's challenging norms of sexuality and certainly of punctuality. And just, it's got to be a record too, man. It's got to be a record.

But the day that it is released, it is not going to be a record. There's no way. Whereas the thing about, sorry, literally everyone who's listening, and if you didn't want to drink today, but you would insist on doing the drinking game, I'm going to say Kanye. The thing about Kanye that makes him uniquely suited to these times is that Pablo was a insane artistic statement,

but it was also an artistic statement, Taylor made to be ripped apart and celebrated on day one. And then he didn't stop making it after day one. You know, it was a living organism in a way that was totally unique and actually, he always meets the hype. And I don't mean that he meets it in terms of

he gives people what they want, but he brings it head on. Yeah, right. And wrestles with it. And everything we know about Frank Ocean, he does not seem to even want to grab that spotlight. So, so I don't know. are people like getting salty about it?

Do you think it's going to affect the reviews of coverage? I think that it was supposed to be out a couple of, you know, last Tuesday or whatever. And then the New York Times ran a piece that said it was coming out Friday. And it didn't come out Friday. And now it's Monday again and it's still not out. The paper of record. I know. I mean, and I think that I think that that's, you know, if Kanye had showed up at MSG

and played two Pablo songs and done a fashion. show, I think people would have been salty. But like you said, like he, it may not always be what you want, but it is always a spectacle. And he's somebody who can actually, it's like make like a Michael Bay who's like the movie is always going to go bang really loud. And that's why it deserves to come out July 4th, you know? That's not necessarily a good thing for our culture, but it is a good thing for the expectations that are set up. And I think that what you're seeing with the streaming wars and with like these companies need to, I mean, I'm really like going up against the. major corporations today.

But like with these companies need to drive interest in their product by creating a sense of urgency about coming to the platform, right? You have to come to Apple because Frank Ocean is going to build speakers and play the fucking new version of intervisions in your brain. And if that doesn't happen, I do think that people are going to be like, what the fuck? Just let me know when it comes out. Yeah. Yeah, it's true.

I think you're going back to title. let me know what's up. Rick Ross is doing a 10-year anniversary. Port of Miami concert. Because the one thing everyone loves most about Rick Ross is his debut album, Port of Miami. No, but I think you're hitting it something

that is noteworthy in the arc of the record industry or whatever we call it now, which is we went from scheduled release dates to records to surprises to scheduled surprises. And that's never going to work out for anybody. Like, in an old economy,

if Frank Ocean didn't release an album for one year, two year, four years, five years, like there would be a piece in random notes about it in Rolling Stone, like, what's up with him? Or you'd see a picture of him or people would be talking about it. But when he finished that album, like Radiohead did with K'd A, there would be a plan put in place that suited the material, and it would be brought to people in a manner that suited it. the idea of a scheduled surprise just to get that that sweet that's that sweet uh you know

trending topic hit i i don't think it works for everybody and i think we're about to find that out well maybe by the time we do the re-up it will be out who knows who knows man maybe by the time we do the re-up katie lodecki will have uh won nine golds but i don't know oh sorry i don't know When it's on. She did. I was, I was, I was, I was just looking at Ray's dark web and it, it, it, it, it spoiled the Olympics form. You were, you were, you were, you were, you were buying some ketamine.

There was, and there was weirdly, Decky's Olympic results. Weirdly, China, China won everything, according to Ray's website. So, it's amazing. Oh, all right. Uh, we'll be back Thursday talking stranger things. Until then, Andy, thank you so much. Great job, Britsky.