The Watch - Ep. 68: 'Halt and Catch Fire' and 'Animal Kingdom' Re-up

Episode Date: August 26, 2016

Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the Elliot-free episode of 'Mr. Robot' (8:00) and the return of AMC's 'Halt and Catch Fire' (15:30), then they give their thoughts on this summer's 'Animal Kingdom' and the rebranding of Turner networks (29:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor for Theringer.com and joining me in the studio. Know his name is Jeffrey. It's Andy Greenwald. You know, I feel like people should know now that they're really into the TikTok,

like the real, like details of this podcast. We're really opening the door. Well, no, this is, we've become a traditional podcast where there's 10 minutes of, of getting to know you banter before we get into our incredibly incisive takes. Four years in, they need to know us. All I'm saying is Chris is, I think, playing mind games with me.

I feel like this is a Freddie Nause in Riker's situation. Because, remember... Because I have this toothbrush in the man who wasn't there is playing. You guys listened on Monday, and Chris was like, so happy you're here, welcome,

this is so great. I walk in today, and the first thing he says to me is we're switching seats. Yeah. I'm taking the other seat. So now we're in different positions. I feel a little bit thrown.

Yeah. Have you ever sat in that chair? And he keeps offering me cup of noodles, which is the weird thing. Have ever sat in this chair? The baby oil, we're ready to go. I've done twos of podcasts in this room, and this is two. Have I sat in this chair? That's good.

Good sample size for you. Here's the thing. It is a very Freddie move for you to have the chair that has it where you can see the door and I have my back to the door. This is like Jason Bourne style. I need to see all the exits, all the sight lines. Andy, we are here. It's Friday.

It's the re-up. We're going to talk about a grab bag of stuff. We've got... We're excited to do this grab bag. We've got a couple of shows that we... Like, one show that's come back, Hought and Catch Fire, that we wanted to chat about.

Got another show that we sort of didn't catch in its arc this summer. In that it's over, but we want to talk about it. But we both have since come to enjoy, and that's TNT's Animal Kingdom. And we wanted to chat a little bit, I guess, about Mr. Robot. I kind of am almost at this point, I'm running out of Mr. Robot takes,

but I thought this was a pretty, some stuff happened in this episode, so I thought we could chat about it to start with. I definitely want to talk about it because I think it was a noteworthy episode. I really enjoyed the episode, and I think this is not a new observation because we're recording two days after it aired,

but pretty unique that the show could do an episode without Elliot in it at this stage in its run, but pretty noteworthy that people, I think, were a little bit relieved to have no Elliot, because we were saying as recently is Monday, that he is, it is a unique work of the show that Elliot and Mr. Robot are now on

their own show and that we are actually enjoying the Dom and Angela and Darlene adventures a little bit more. Right. So here we got him. And this was good. It was a, it had a real narrative thrust and that was sort of exciting and suspenseful and stressful. Electrifying even. A little bit electrifying.

I see what you did there. That's wordplay. I don't do wordplay anymore. I just speak my truth. But I, to have all that and then to also have the flourishes that the season has really had, thanks to Sam's direction, specifically the karaoke scene. Portia doubled. I killed it. I don't know who did that particular.

A little on the nose of a song choice. Yeah, but who did that vocal arrangement? I found it very moving. Feist, I don't know. I really enjoy that. Now, I have to say as a, until days ago, New Yorker, I have not found the all-day indoor. 4th of July karaoke industry to be as robust as Mr. Robot did. It's taking place in a lot more of those indoor skyscraper malls that I haven't taken

you to yet down in Wilshire. Down in New York City? No. Or that's where the karaoke all day karaoke is. It's just like, I mean, it was interesting that Dom a couple weeks ago or last week was like, it's 4th of July. I'm going to go find a picnic. And Angela's like, I'm going to find a midtown pub to seal myself in like a panic room.

Right. With Duck Phillips from Madman. The timing, was that what happens? Is Dom talking? Oh, that's right. She's like, in the beginning of the episode, she's like, I got to. I think it was last week, but she was saying that Fourth of July was coming. Well, because sometimes it's kind of unclear about how the timing, like the compression or expansion of like the timeline of like how many weeks or days or minutes have passed.

It's still July. It's, it's only been two months since the hack. How did you feel about a Mr. Robot episode without Mr. Robot? It's probably my favorite Darlene episode that I've ever seen. Although I feel weird about saying that because she kills a guy, girl, she kills a woman. And I thought that they had like a natural energy to it. And it was interesting to see those two Darley and Angelus specifically juxtaposed. Kind of like what happens when these two people are untethered to Elliott completely.

I really liked some of the stuff I saw in there. I just think that it made a lot of dramatic sense to have this big review. real with Elliot and then let people kind of sit with that for a week and explore what's going on with other stuff in the episode. Do you care at all? Does it change how you feel about Darlene as a character that she is now officially a murderer? Change how I feel about it? No.

I mean, I just think that obviously the season is dedicated to go into some dark places. I think that Darlene's, for as much as the show, focuses on Elliot's particularly unique wiring. Darlene's wiring is not exactly up to code either in terms of where the emotion plug goes into the humanity cable or whatever. I don't know much about. Maybe I'll learn more about wiring now that I'm living in a home instead of an apartment. But that's just going to be me, young Bob Vila.

So I think that track for me. I also really liked, yeah, is it about wiring? It's about Mr. Robot. The TV show? Have you noticed that the three characters, three main characters, Darlene, Angela, and Elliot, are really more trying to avenge things that happen in their childhood than they are trying to take down late period capitalism? Yes.

Yeah. I really like that. And other people notice that? I think you're the first. God damn. It's great to be on top of this mountain. Listen, though. That is a really good example of one of the reasons why I will still ride for the show,

regardless of peaks and valleys, because it's not, it is not. not like superhero crusading. The politics are the convenient cudgels for these people who are still messed up with their childhood. And you could make the connection that, you know, Darlene and Angela are avenging things that happened to them when they were kids, old wounds that they have not dealt with. Think about what Elliott's safe space was when he was getting the living shit kicked out of him. Television. It was, you know, the TGIF block from the 90s. Their culture damaged more than anything else. And I think what the show is arguing almost more than anything else is that the whole idea of revolution and the sort of heroism of what they did in changing the world

is kind of stepped on mythology. It's basically borrowed from comic books or V for Vendetta or everything. The Matrix and all the things that the show is also borrowing from. That in itself is an interesting kind of comment to go on. But on another level, why this episode worked this week for me was like Mowgli and Trenton, who are not major characters, but have been raised to more prominence the season. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed getting the backstory of them, spending more time with them, seeing people who have things to lose. And the fact that Dom is basically grasping at straws here and has really only tied him to the party as a DJ.

Not in any way. She's looking at this slobby guy and she's like, he can't be one of the revolutionaries, basically. She just thinks he was there. And so she's pulling on that thread. I have a couple questions about Cisco, darlings, on again, off again, Paramore. On again slash fungo practice. One is, what's up with his finger?

Did not understand that. And two. They put a syringe in his nail. Did they break it off in there? I guess. And was that just like a one-time motivating thing? Or did they inject anything into him? I think it was just sort of like torture and pain and freaking him out.

But to have that happen in the same episode where what's her name, Terrell's wife. Oh, yeah. I just always call her Ilka. I don't know if that's her name. Definitely not. Don't be racist against Scandinavians. No, not at all. That's my favorite IKEA couch.

That's what I'm getting it. To have that happened in the same episode where she had her dude ice the parking lot attendant with a string, that was what was confusing about it. You know, it's also confusing is that he is dressed like he's in leaders of the new school. I'm fine with that. I thought he was dressed more like a member of the young black teenagers. Like prime DJ scribble. Again, like this is the thing, though. When shows go from season one which are focused to season twos, which are naturally more,

I'll say it again, diffuse, more spread out. You need to share the ball a little bit. Unlike the pickup basketball players that you still have not forgiven the show for. The fact that it happened in jail doesn't change the fact that those guys don't even understand basic pass and screen away fundamentals. You're still angry about it. But what I'm saying is that's when a show reveals what the bench is. And it's been interesting to see who steps up and who is worthy of getting the rock pass to.

I was not personally that invested in Cisco as a character, but we're getting more of him. Something's going on. So I don't know. Here's what I'll say going into whatever it was coming up about Mr. Robot. I love that we're still talking about this. It is such a weird show. It was always a weird show,

but I think that got a little bit hidden last year was the thing we said was weird was how good it was, and I was pulling it all off. This is super weird that we're having. having these tears for fears karaoke scenes and and wicker messages on the screen and pacemakers are cool. I mean, I know that obviously, like, full disclosure where like you're not the normal viewer of the show. There's very little normal about me thanks to my wiring. Yeah.

By the way, Hacking Robot Return, September 7th. That's what I was going to set you up for that. That was my little. It's common, man. But do you think that this show now is sort of sort of. starting to get into a place where, like, do they have to have a big reveal every season, every six episodes? Rob Parvilla wrote a little bit about this in The Ringer, and I thought it was really smart,

where he's like, we're kind of, now we're kind of getting into a place where there's, like, every five or six episodes, something tells us that everything we thought was true is wrong. I'm worried about that. I think more than anything else, that's why I was against the prison theory that proved to be not a theory, because it's setting, and it's sort of a weird way to be that I'm worried about the show or the stakes that Sam and the people he's working with are creating for themselves. But I think that what one wants in a show, in a relationship with the TV show, is the feeling

of building, of momentum and of affection and of connection to the characters. You don't want the feeling of, you know, one of those carnival rides, like the dead drop ones, the free fall ones, where it's like you go up above and then you get the drop and you don't know where that's coming from. That is diminishing returns. So I worry about that. But I also don't know what the next shoe to drop would be. I mean, everyone now knows that Elliot is an area of suspect.

What if it's just like Russian nesting dolls and he keeps waking up in different places? Like that whole thing was a dream and that whole thing was a dream. So it's like that show Awake? Yeah. That's a hot reference for people who loved NBC shows that lasted eight episodes. So Mr. Roba obviously was a sensation in its first season. And it's since I think in the second season, been fair to say grappling with not necessarily expectations, but what show it is, what it's, what story it's trying to tell.

Well, it's also, this also always happens in second seasons. What always happens in TV in general, where there, very often is a disconnect between the show the audience thinks it's watching and the show the creator wants to make. And that leads me to Halt and Catch Fire. Oh, you're still good. You're in the wrong seat, but you're still good at Segwheres. Because this is a, Halt and Catch Fire is a show where I think, so let's just lay it out in case, because it's been a lot.

Let's put our cards on the table here. It's been a while since you and I talked about this show. Chris, you are not a show. a normal halt and catch fire viewer. In the sense that I only do it intermittently. Yes. In the sense that you only do it grudgingly? No, I actually, I was surprised by watching the first episode of this season.

The third season. The third season. By how much I knew, I was like, oh, I've either by osmosis or by watching episodes here and there. Or by taking the advice I give on my Twitter feed. Yes. About how to watch it. Which is all the time. Constantly.

And this was a show that had, it's surprising. supporters in the first season, but I think was, you know, it got through a first season that was largely about Lee Pace and Scoot McNary's characters and Mackenzie Davis and Carrie Bichet. Carrie Bichet's characters were sort of in the background. Period Peace set in sort of Silicon Prairie in Texas in the 80s with two characters trying to basically beat Apple before Apple was Apple. And I think it felt like a, you know, a soldered together motherboard of other prestige shows.

Period piece. Lee Pace was basically Don Draper. Scoot McNary wasn't really Walter White, but in terms of the suburban frustration, you could say he was. So take those two characters, put him in a garage, see what happens. The show proved to be more than that in the first season, but I didn't stick with it. And then the second season had this kind of incredible, at least critical trampoline bounce where they switched up the emphasis of the show and moved it more towards the female characters. and put Scoot McNary and Lee Pace's characters a little bit in the background, and the second season ended, like, spoiler, I guess, with the characters up and moving to the real Silicon Valley in San Francisco in the 80s. Yeah, and one of the biggest things that they did so intelligently from season one to two was season one felt a lot like period karaoke,

where they were basically in a garage making something that we already knew was made better by someone else. In the second season, the show Embrace a New Idea, which was, it's a show about the invention of the future. So in the second season, they stumbled into social networks, basically, at the very beginning of the idea of them. And in the season, they're moving into, like, e-commerce and these other things, and Internet security and privacy, things that still resonate, and you don't need to invent, quote, unquote.

These are just themes they're playing with. Right. Sometimes I wonder whether or not I actually care about privacy and, like, digital security. Do you want me to tell everyone your passwords now? That's not what I mean. I just mean I don't know if it's like, you know how it's, It's like it's the central issue of our time. Well, I think the reason why the show is good.

That has it done to do with Haught and Catch Fire. Like, I mean across the board. Like, I don't, like. You're not, you're not that bothered by it? Are you going to see Snowden? The movie? Yeah. It was good.

I saw it. You saw Snowden? Oh, oh, no. I thought you meant Citizen Four, the movie about Snow. No, no. I meant Oliver Stone movie. 100,000 times now. But Citizen Four was great.

Yeah, I love Citizen Four. Who doesn't? I guess I care about digital technology. You do care. I care about digital technology. It's just like, when they were like, you can't possibly look at these chat logs. Yeah.

I was like, oh, but you could. Wouldn't you? But it was a bigger deal then. Yeah, a huge deal. I like this episode. I was more talking generally. I think the show is, I think what they've done with the show is really amazing. And I, but I...

Can I ask you, though, why? Here's what I want to say. Think about all of the shows, the majority of the shows we talk about on this podcast and the shows that we like. Narcos? Yes. That's an example of one of the ones I'm saying about. Think about how many of them could plausibly introduce a gun or have a character be shot in an episode, and we'd be like, that's episode four of Mr. Robot, of Narcos, of Animal Kingdom,

of, replace it with a crossbow bolt, it's Game of Thrones. Right. At this point in 2016, the hour-long dramas that we talk about, I'm hard-pressed thinking of one other than Halton Catch Fire where you can't just have someone shoot someone to get the plot moving. Yeah, I'd say that about a good wife, but they certainly went back on that. Right, exactly. I think what Hald and Catch Fire for me, and not just because it's a period piece,

I would call it a throwback, is that it is just deeply, even the Americans, which you definitely don't watch, but they have guns in that show too. Halton Catch Fire is a throwback to me and that it is just deeply, deeply interested in tracking these characters,

emotional life and doing so with very strong storytelling and good character work. So it's hard to get people, you know, that's not very sexy pitch. Yes. But when I was watching, so the premiere was,

there was two hours that they put up They put one hour up on Sunday, and they aired them both, I think, the other night. Oh, it's the first one. And it's, well, in the second one, when there's the shootout, with the dark army. When they find Pablo Escobar inside of a common word 64. It was pretty surprising. You know, it follows beats where I'm like, oh, that's, that's well done. That's a, that turn is well done.

You know, when, because the show is now about Carrie Bichet's character and McKenzie Davis's character, trying to build their company with venture capitalists and Silicon Valley in a world that is still quite sexist. And the character Joe McMillan seems to be fully embracing the steep Jobsian. Yes. Although, so in this show, Apple exists. Yes. So when he's doing the bit at the Castro and he's like, are you free, is it self-consciously

like mimicking jobs or is it kind of like we're taking a little bit from what jobs? Bob's would. Yeah, I think they should have winking it. I mean, I don't think Steve Jobs is going to show up on the show as a character. This is not turn, you know, San Fernando Valley spies. Oh, San Fernando Valley's here. Sorry, Silicon Valley spies. But, yeah, instead of playing with things that existed.

I mean, like Norton Antivirus was a thing, and he's doing McMillan, whatever. But I just really enjoy the way we just stay grounded with these characters. They're a fun group to hang out with. Toby Hus, who plays Boz, is terrific. The season begins with him singing. And all of this is to say, the obsession that people have with the show, first of all, to be clear, no one is obsessed with the show. The ratings reflect that.

But online, the frequency with which people ask me when I talk about it, can I start watching a season two? Can I start watching a season three? Trust me, yes. Start wherever you want because you don't need to know how Walter White became Walter White. You're not going to miss the Gus season or whatever. You know what I mean? You're not, you don't need to know how,

Ramsey Bolton stop being Ramsey Snow. Like, these are about people, and there's some computers, and it's 1986, two of the characters are married, one of them is single, you're fine. Just jump in and take pleasure from the show. These are not sexy talking points to get people on board,

but to me it just stands out so much from everything else because of its devotion to its characters, because it's led by these two strong female characters who basically ace the Bechdel test every time they're on screen. It's really, really engaging. How are you feeling about the 80s right now? As opposed to which decade?

As opposed to the 80s are probably one of the most well-represented decades on TV specifically. I like the 80s on TV now because we've reached the point where the people making the shows about the 80s lived in the 80s. So it's not this like VH1 talking heads nostalgia where everyone is like wearing, you know, Daylow hyper-color shirts and listening to Cindy Lauper all the time. it was just kind of like Like way it is now It's slightly different Exactly just a little bit less tech or whatever In the Americans does this

I think Halton Catch Fire does this Americans halt and catch fire Stranger Things Narcos You know in a different kind of 80s They feel lived in Yeah as opposed to And so and you know

I think culturally as we You know devour ourselves As we start getting into 90 shows They will at some point Not just be like Nicktoons the movie, which is a thing. Right.

But they'll start treating it like it was for us when we went, drove to Marlton, New Jersey to buy Wu Tang forever. There's something about, I think that part of my block with this show has often had something to do with my age and hence my relationship to that time period. So I often don't find, it's almost like, you know how like when you go through it in Epcot Center and it's just like, and here's what they thought the future was going to look like. And I guess I kind of. feel like I'm, I'll be slowly passed through this show and I'll be like, sure. Like, yeah,

I get it and like that's probably like, like I get like I get this vision of the near future via this. I hear what you're saying. But here's why this show has been doing my head in is because when I was watching the season, it's 1986 and they're like, you know, what if, what if they could have a private chat room or you could trade goods on the internet and it's basically like, you know, what if, what if Groot make fire in cave? Yes. But so this is 1986. Eight years later, I got on AOL and had email at home in 1994. Eight years, when you're a little bit older, is not a big deal at all.

Eight years ago, we were like, man, Barack Obama might be president. That would be interesting. Yeah. For us, now that we're a little bit more mature. Seasons. Yeah. Seasons veterans. Well wired.

Yeah. Eight years is literally nothing. So to realize that these people really are on the cusp of it, the case. character, the new character in season three of Halt, Ryan says in the second hour, you know, something's coming. I don't know what it is, but I need to be on board to see it. Thinking about it through that prism kind of made me excited, like, oh, this really was the ground floor.

There was a continuum of when they were just playing with these blocky pixels and then suddenly became, you know, doxing celebrities. Like, there's a straight line to that. It's a really a wonderful thing they're inventing. All right. Well, I mean, we'll keep talking about it. I'll keep checking it out. Will you keep checking it out?

Yeah, sure. It's tough. I've got nothing else going on. But it is a tough, is that true? No. It is a tough, it's a tough show to have put in the regular rotation on a podcast because it does it. Precisely for the same reasons why I like it. I mean, it's also, you're talking about how it's like a throwback.

I think that guns and stakes and violence and melodrama have always played a huge role in an hour-long dramas on television. Yes. But the thing it's actually a throwback to also is it's almost dark in. how I don't mean to like denigrate anybody's contributions but it does not visually look like a lot of what we consider prestige television right now. I mean it's very straightforward. Yeah. You know like your usual like how you would assume a film like a television like show would look and not like girlfriend experience and not like even Mr. Robot or or Knight of or any of these shows or even Game of Thrones. I mean it has nothing to do with production value.

It has everything to do with just like it's fairly like there's a kitchen. There are three people in the kitchen. Here's a shot of one person, another and another. You know? The visuals are not the priority, I would say. It's not visually dynamic in that way. But you're right. It's hard to say this without sounding pejorative.

But I feel like I really like that it is a modest show in terms of its, in terms of the size of the story it's telling. But it's playing with very big ideas. You think that they'll bring it back for a fourth season? This has been interesting. Can I start on the fourth season? First of all, at me. And I'll get back to you.

The third season was kind of a shock because the ratings were so low, although the critical response was big. And I had Joel Stillerman, who's the head of AMC on the podcast to talk to him about it, like the day they announced the renewal. He was basically saying, look, we found a way to make this work. We own the show. It films in Atlanta, there's tax breaks. And what he's making is a bet on, well, two things. Like The Walking Dead and Fear of the Walking Dead keep the Lights on. And so you have some extra money to play with, especially if you're chasing some critical prestige.

But I think the more interesting comment he made to me is that he's trying to chase a future, a financial future that isn't here yet, in which having five, I don't know how many, potentially four or five. The two walking deads. But not just the shows. What I mean is having potentially at the end of this four or five seasons of Halt and Catch Fire, a critically acclaimed drama that was consistent throughout, having those in your library, your content library, when AMC networks inevitably go over the top and you're subscribing. so that when you subscribe to AMC networks and whatever form it takes, one of the boxes on your screen is halt and catch fire, and someone's like, oh, I heard that's pretty good.

That's worth having in the same way that Netflix is just acquiring things. He's making that bet. Let me ask you, in that hypothetical world in which we're starting to build up this stuff, is it almost useful to have something that's set in the 80s? Is it almost useful to have these period pieces

where they don't feel dated? So if in five years, let's say, if you go to, if you go to HBO, go or whatever and you you dial up six feet under first of all you shouldn't do HBO go on dial up and I'm saying that not as a you know and you sit around for about three or four hours and you wait for half of an episode of six feet under you would not get half you would get three feet under yeah um like does six feet under look dated now in a way that because it was contemporary set when it was on in the earlier part of the 2000s but a show like halt and catch fire these period pieces

feel a little bit more like, yeah, you can put these in a box, and you can watch them in five years or in 10 years or in two days. Yeah. And they're always going to feel like fine and fresh. I think that's, I think there are definitely people who are very well paid to consider those things when they're, when they're advising. I mean, how many, like, how many, it feels like a lot of stuff is period now. Yeah. I think, I think that's a very good reason why. I mean, I think that you have, because they do focus group everything.

And when you're at the top of a network making these decisions, you are making these decisions. in multiple time periods, not 80s, 90s, but for this year, for next year, and for 10, 20 years from now. And so you want things that could potentially be evergreen. You want things that deal with themes or ideas or guns or whatever, or whatever, that seem like topics people continually are interested in. Yeah. There's no, no question about that. Okay, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back, finish up, talk about Animal Kingdom. Hey, guys, just want to tell you about our sponsor, Seeky. Buying tickets online for sports and concerts can be a confusing process, and it has been for a long time. You know,

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Start a fully featured 15-day free trial at backblaze.com slash the watch. All right. So a couple weeks ago, Andy was just like when Andy was coming out to Los Angeles. It was only a week ago. It was only a week ago. It was like forever. Andy was like, have you seen Animal Kingdom? Which is something I should have seen.

And actually, connection between Animal Kingdom and Halt and Catch Fire, Jonathan Liscoe, who show ran the first season. Two seasons. Two seasons. So, yeah, Halton Catch Fire was created by two dudes named Chris, Cantwell and Rogers. And they created the show, but they had not, they didn't have the experience to run the show. So they brought in this guy, Jonathan, Lisco, to run the show. By all accounts, that was a fruitful union. Some of those things are not.

Then after the second season, Lisco went to develop Animal Kingdom for T&T, and the Chris's were promoted to run their own show. Right. And this is, Animal Kingdom is, so it's based on David Bischow's Australian crime film that starred Guy Pearce. It's awesome. Mendelso. Right?

Was that the coming out of Mendelso? Yeah. And it's a great movie if you haven't had a chance to see it. But they transported the show from Australia to, Oceanside, California, which is this supposed to be like kind of San Diego-ish. Yeah. And it stars Ellen Barkin as the matriarch of a family of robbery-committing surfers. Surfer dudes.

And among, she has two sons, I really she has a bunch of sons, but Scott Speedman plays the sort of. The adopted oldest son. Right. And then there's a kid who is her grandson who in the first episode, the pilot episode, is brought into this world. and we kind of are introduced to this family via this kid. I want to talk about the show in a number of levels. First, I want to ask you, why did we just not see this show? I think it was just game of Thrones time, honestly.

There's just too much. I'm pretty sure it came on around the NBA finals or they were using the NBA finals to throw to it. And I remember just being like between the NBA playoffs and Game of Thrones. I just didn't have brain space for it. And we're supposed to be following this stuff. Sure. And it's very, very hard for anything to get any kind of traction.

I think also there's TNT by it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't watch last ship. I love Rizoli and Isles. I have a Rizali and Isles Tumblr. Who do you prefer, though? Like, could you imagine Rizoli without Isles?

I can't. I can't do it. I'm an aisles man myself. I won't do it. I've always been an aisles man. But this is all part of it. So Kevin Riley, who used to run Fox, took over the Turner channels and is attempting to rebrand them, much in the same way USA is being rebranded after Mr. Robot.

And so the TBS comedy brand, they're trying to do new stuff with. And that's Samantha B. Show and the detour, which we really liked a lot. And so Animal Kingdom is sort of the big splashy, like, no, we're not going to do. This and Last Ship, yeah. Well, I think Last Ship predates it. Last Ship is kind of more the older show. I would say that, you know how USA used to be blue skies?

Yeah. I think that it's almost like nice dusk is the TNT thing where it's... The old one or the new one? Well, because I do actually think Last Ship and Animal Kingdom are connected in this. sensitive is like really attractive people doing somewhat dark stuff yeah but softened by very traditional TV tropes which I'm going to get into with the animal kingdom I agree with you so I think so this show ended the season ended I think people should seek it out because I had a lot of fun watching it and I want to watch the whole season but maybe we should start top down because I think that we

probably both agree that I wish the show was on Cinemax or something like that because we we mentioned John to imagine it being that much it yeah I know what you're going to say So Jonathan Lusco developed it, but the godfather of the show is John Wells, who is just a maestro of... West Wing. Network television, ER. And he's been doing shameless. He's also, by the way, the director of Chef, the greatest film of the last 20 years.

But he... Sorry, I wasn't called Chef. It was called out Burt. Not Adam Jones. By the way, a bunch of folks were watching that on the airplane around me, and I still couldn't believe it was real. I just watched... Were they all weeping? When Bradley Cooper, first of all, just Bradley Cooper, long pause.

Let's just talk about that. But the scene when Bradley Cooper aggressively tastes Sienna Miller sauce, when he walks into the kitchen, no metaphor is, this is just what life was like in the hot kitchen. And he just does the double dip and then the fingers suck. And he looks at her and he's like, acceptable. Can you just imagine, like, I wanted that scene, but David O. Russell directing it during I heart Huckabees. He would then just like pour that all over the little. Lee Tomlin and just been like, get off the set!

Yes, it doesn't. You haven't been funny since Gong show. It's too acidic. Yeah. You haven't been funny since fucking Aloha. Right. But he also does shameless. And we never talk about shameless on this show.

And one of the reasons why, it's the same reason when I wrote about it for Grandlin, which is shameless is just 100% B plus fine. It is the best vehicle for someone who's good at network TV to function in a post-network era. Yes. Because Shameless is essentially a family drama from the 80s, except they're doing cocaine and drinking themselves to death. Animal Kingdom, to me, it bumps up against some potentially dangerous places, and it doesn't go to them. And I don't know if that's bad because it's keeping me entertained. I would definitely say that, let's say if you've been watching Mr. Robot season two and you feel like it's dragging or you feel like you're kind of like, I don't really understand what's going on.

or like I don't understand why I should care about this, that or the other. Like there's a lot of like empty space in Mr. Robot. That's obviously what they're trying to do with it this season. And I would say the same thing goes for night of where there's just like, it lingers for some time. This is not a problem for animal king. No. Annie Kings does not care about that.

No. So I would say that there are flashes of like collateral era of Michael Mann in there. And it's got a lot of really cool vibes. But you are never in the dark. in this show. It is like, here's what's happening. Here's where it's going. Here's what people's motivations are. Seen, scene, scene. But it does that in a very artful way. It's a TV skill that we, as you just cited, we don't really celebrate or even notice as much anymore as it's become more auteurist in its narrative in its direction. This is, and I've never, I don't know the man.

I don't know John Liscoe. Don't know him. But coming off of Halt and Catch fire in the way we were talking about it, I give him a lot of credit and John Wells for the way they are unspooling the story because you feel like you're in the hands of people who know what they're doing. The pacing is really good. The amount of information we get to in the pilot and then in the second episode, the reveals of, oh, that's that character's motivation. That's who that guy might be. That's what he's hiding is done in such an entertaining way. There are two moments in the pilot, which is, you know, we can just limit our conversations to that just so that people don't feel like we're jumping too far ahead on it. Maybe we'll come back to it in a couple weeks if people

check it out. But there's two moments in the pilot that I wanted to point out because they're like very, this is there, it's the difference between the show being on TNT and the show being on Cynumax or HBO or something like that. One is, um, a party that's being held at Ellen Barkin's house. Yeah. And you're supposed to just feel like this kid who is coming from a pretty poor background. His mother was a drug addict. Josh. Yeah, Josh. Jay is now like in this completely new world where everything is overwhelming. People are doing drugs and, but recreation. and you know there's like all these girls around and there's this pool and they're all diving off the top of the garage into the pool and it's pretty dangerous they're doing it almost famous yeah

and you know as a viewer of television of so much television whoever you are i'm assuming if you're listening to this podcast you watch a lot of tv you understand what you're supposed to think about this but then they put on like bad red hot chili peppers to make sure you know yeah and it's just like that one extra thing where it's like it's a really jarring moment because the other parts around it are actually quite subtle and actually pretty cool and stylized but then it's like someone somewhere was like these we're not going to know who these guys are unless late period Lincoln Park is playing someone's slapping that base yeah exactly with a DJ scratching unless DJ scribble shows up this kid is in a new world and we need to show it yeah and then there's another moment when they are um

during this first heist uh then and the way that they're going to get a away with it is by setting up some other people. And that is, the way they do it is like very step by step kind of cool to watch. And maybe this is just, as you know, we watch a lot of shows that involve crime. So obviously we can kind of see the stitching. But I think a lot of people besides us can do that too. And I think it's really interesting. There is a, I wonder even if it was recorded when they did it.

But there is a character who says like, make sure you move those guys into. of the van so that their DNA is all over the place. And nobody would say that. You would know that. Characters would know that doing it. And we can kind of tell. And if not, it would be revealed later on. But that is the TNT thing. It's like, why are we watching this?

They don't know. Let's tell them. That's networky. Yeah. That's noted. That's been noted. And that's John, West John Wells's background.

That's Kevin Riley's background. That makes sense. I mean, the, the Cliff's notes pitch for this show, basically, is it's the OC, but Ryan went down instead of up. Yes. He was in Chino and he was not doing great. And then... Whatever below Chino.

And then Sandy Cohen got sideswiped on the 405, didn't make it down. And instead, you know, he's with these guys. He's with Ellen Barkin. He's with the wrong saviors. That in and of itself, I'm already watching the show off that pitch, to be honest. And I think that one of the things that it does well is a sense of place. One of my favorite shows, great lost, gone too soon, Terriers was set down there. Similarly, there's something about the setting.

You feel it. You feel the way he's riding bikes down to the beach and the way the houses look and the way his girlfriend's living in. His girlfriend lives in a higher class neighborhood and the way that looks out over a hill over the ocean as opposed to where they are. And even in that world, the surfing montage is like the point break moments. Come on. Locals only, bro. I'm into it because I like being taken away to that world. I would say the other limitation in terms of it being a little bit more networky.

and just being them trying to make this during peak TV is casting. I think the casting is fine across the board. But there are some parts that I think really could have sparked with had they gotten the first person they'd gone after or the fifth. I'm not even going to name names because you can watch it. You can see that some performances are so far anyway, have a higher caliber than others. Bono was busy. Bono, yo, I'm just saying Bono could have shown up in there. But you couldn't have done Barkin.

Barkin is... No, I'm thinking more for the Speedman role. Okay, for real, though? I love Speedman. I am a Speedman head. Let's put this to bed. Yeah. And I'm saying this as someone...

Do it. Who... Can we be honest, Tate? Yeah. We see... I see Scott Foley, man. I see you. They shoot Shonda shows on the lot where we work as the rare website.

I thought I was here for how to get away with murder season three. I'm not trying to call dudes out. Scott Foley. does his thing, he holds it down. Yeah. Not like Scott Speedman, though. What about Speedman, though? Here's what I'm saying.

It has always been Speedman. Like, I'm sorry, Norhead. Sorry. It's all about Ben. Yeah. It is. Let me tell you something about Scott Speedman. When this, I was watching the, I didn't know he was in the show.

I watched this, I watched this show on Delta. This is as excited as I've seen you in such a long time. When our man Jay goes to his grandma's house and they're just a bunch of like golden gods there doing backflips. off the pool. I was like, and she's like, don't you remember your uncles? I'm like, those two hairy dudes are his uncles.

Who is this young Adonis? Who is this 20 year old who's going to be his blood rival? And I was like, oh, that's Speedman though. That guy's over 40 and he's just killing it. And he picks his spots. You don't see Speedman up in every show? Nope. He's very, very choosy.

Is that what it is? Don't, don't stop. Slow down my... It's a tasting menu? Don't slow down my speedman. All right? Look, all the real speedheads know, the speed addicts. Are you a speedman freak?

Here's how you know a real speedman freak. Have you seen Barney's version? No, I've seen strangers, though, but you haven't. I don't even know what you're talking about. I'm not check mating you. I'm just saying you should see Barney's version. Don't come to me and be like, have you seen this speedman thing? Because I'm asking you, have you seen that speedman thing?

I came to you as a friend, as a colleague, as a coworker. You have me with my back to the door here. Scott Foley could walk in here any moment in fucking brown bag me, which is not blackbagging. Brown bagging is when you pick up some nice things at the co-op, like avocados. Classic Noel. And you take them home, which is what Noel would do. That's what Noel would do.

He wouldn't get people's DNA up in his minivan or whatever Noel's driving in 2016. When Speedman's like, when that dude is like busting Speedman's chops and Speabman turns him and he's like, say it to my face. Yes. Do you know, in episode three, when Speeeman's, Bidman goes to Mexico. He doesn't go to Mexico like other people go to Mexico. Like Noel.

Noel would go to like Signor Frogs. He would maybe have a little too much repisado. And it would be a funny story. Yeah. When they looked through the iPhone photo montage of what he did. He would, you know what? He would click yes to the Facebook montage of that trip. He'd be like, great idea.

Spieman's like, what's Facebook? Exactly. Noel's like, thank you, Mark Zuckerberg. You've made this easier for me. Spieman's like, I got this instant camera and I taped them to pieces of paper. Or he's on Wicker. I don't know. I don't know what his interaction with the world is.

Maybe that's why he's not getting the parts. Speedman's peach only. What would it be a really weird choice if Scott Speedman was actually like Bill Murray? And he's like, I don't have an agent. I don't even have a phone. I see Scott Speedman in LA. That's a metaphor. Not in the sense that every man tries to look like him.

Because let's talk about how that dude is aged very well. Didn't I just say that when I called him a golden teenage Adonis? Who basically catfished me because he's a 42-year-old man. It was on Felicity. Did I not make it clear how handsome he is? Do you think Speedman, is it like a variation on buttoning? Is he on Benjamin buttoning? Like, is he just getting hotter?

Yes. First of all, yes. Juliet would say yes, I would imagine, too. I think Amanda and Juliet likes Foley, though. They're dead to me. They're dead to me. Go to the co-op. Listen, we live in a city now.

Go to the co-op. What are you talking about? Brown bagging. Okay. Keep up. We now live. here in a city of Speed Boys. Yeah.

There's only one Speedman. That's what the, you want to know when DC Comics is going to fix their fucking IP? When they introduce Speedman. I don't think anyone, I don't think anyone's bloodstream is ready for it. No. But can we actually,

I don't, do you want to go back talking about Animal Kingdom? I almost did. I almost brought it back to a conversation. We got to go out the way Speedman would go out on his best point. Covered in DNA. Deuces, covered in DNA, head to Mexico with an instant camera and a, and a,

a, a Kawasaki that he built himself. And no LTE connection on his phone. Exactly. Just a flip phone. Just a flip phone and a dream. All right. We'll be back on Monday to talk about the season finale of Night of. And until then, have a great weekend. Great job, Speed Man!