The Watch - Ep. 78: 'Mr. Robot' Creator Sam Esmail

Episode Date: September 23, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald bring on 'Mr. Robot' creator Sam Esmail to discuss the Season 2 finale (6:00), working outside the conventions of TV (15:35), Esmail's desire to ignore traditional plot points (28:00), the elasticity of shows like 'Atlanta' (36:00), comparisons between 'Mr. Robot' and 'The Empire Strikes Back' (46:00), defining the "true north" of a show (53:00), and the must-watch TV heading into the fall (59:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Jaguar, the art of performance. To learn more about the all-new Jaguar XE, visit jaguar USA.com. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to a very special episode of The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the radio.com. I'm joined, as always, by Andy Greenwald, in this house of mirrors.

A hall of mirrors. Hall of mirrors. Hell of mirrors. We were joined by Sam Esmail. Guys, this is history in the making right here. This is really big, I feel. This is groundbreaking. Thank you for joining us.

You joined us twice in one week, first of all. I know, this is the most we've ever had a guest on in one week. I'm glad to be that record breaker. Thank you for making the time for us. Congratulations, the end of the season, Mr. Robot last night. It was last night, yeah. We are going to talk about the episode in-depth. You said you just wanted to recap it.

You just want to have a regular episode of the watch. Just a watch episode. Let's talk about Atlanta and how brilliant that show. We're going to do that. Yeah, yeah. So we're going to talk about, let's do a little rundown. We're going to talk about last night's finale. Is this technically a re-up or is this a...

It's like, when you're on, it's like a special edition. Yeah, okay. It's a special episode of a lot. You get a special episode. We're going to learn about... I feel so much better now. What happened in the garage. It's going to be okay.

We're going to work through it. Last night's episode, we're going to talk about the season overall. We're going to talk about things we've said about the season overall, which you've heard. Which I have. have heard. You're here in the room for. Yes. And then we're going to have a regular episode of the watch, which I guess means we'll go crazy over Atlanta and Kanye West and talk about the casting decisions and stranger fans. Yeah, maybe any movies you're caught up on. Yeah, movies. I don't fly anymore. Okay, we got to get ready to do it. Last night, season two ended. Yes. First question is a pretty

obvious one. Did you have to Google the predatory habits of pythons or is that just something you knew? God, that's a good opener. Thank you. Yeah. I think there was. I think there was. some Wikipedia. Was there? Well, I always remembered that would be a great title for an episode and, you know, Python's obviously, you know, programming language. But then... No, I didn't.

Well, it's a... There you go. You're learning. This is not the tech podcast. And well, and so anyway, so like, you know, when I thought about, well, where is this going to fit and, you know, and sometimes, you know, the tailwags the dog when you think about episode titles, you kind of want to want them to fit into a certain episode. And it wasn't really fitting.

And I already had another episode title for the finale. So I was like, well, we'll do it for season three. And the more we got into it and the more we got into that last episode, I realized that the whole season was that. It was that whole people were lying in wait. I mean, you know, Mr. Robot, you know, Joanna, obviously Dom. So it all kind of made sense, and that's sort of why we went with that. Was the original title for the finale, Elliot gets shot.jepag?

You know what? I will tell it to you and I'm a little embarrassed by it. Okay. Because it's so lame in hindsight now. But it was titles and deeds. And I remember, I pitched it. Oh, that's good. It's titles. You like that?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You like it better. This is sitting next to you right now. Maybe I can change it still. No one checked their DVR. Well, maybe I can. Nobody watched the finale.

Nobody watched the finale. Let's redo it. No, I think we can probably, I think it's probably out there. Yeah, yeah. You could save it for next season. Save it for next season. Did you have, is that an actual FBI tactic? the Python approach?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the man in the middle was an actual tactic. Okay. Because the idea is that, you know, they don't want, if that person has sensitive information that they need, and so therefore they don't want that person knowing that they're onto them. They'll wanna sort of let, like, really kind of stay back

and surveil all the people until they can get to him without him knowing that they're good. Yeah, because all that stuff with the, we waited, we waited. I mean, that's, a lot of that is like a looming tower, and it's a lot of the investigative about 9-11 leading up to it, where they were allowing these things to sort of play themselves out. Well, I mean, the bin Laden search was a lot like that.

I mean, where they could have captured all these lieutenants and sorry, but they didn't, you know, kind of hoping that it would lead back to him. So did the revelation last night that there was, like all FBI agents have a good whiteboard, the revelation that all these people were on the board all along, does that make us, does that put Dom's role the season in different light? because just the other week when we did the hacking robot and I was talking to Grace but one of the questions was why has no one listened to her? Why has, she seems to know who did this and no one is listening. Was that a misdirect?

Because clearly, and meaning, was that a misdirect meaning she wanted to jump the gun or we were just didn't, we just didn't have the full picture? No, she didn't want to jump the gun. In fact, there's language in there in the, I think, an eighth or ninth episode where Santiago, after they get hacked and the video gets released, they're like, this slow approach isn't working anymore.

We're going to have to go guns blazing. And then that's when they sort of shift gears. But I guess it does shed some of her behavior in a different life. Right. So, like, if you know that she is basically on a knife's edge waiting for these people to make the mistake that they can pounce on, it explains some of the insomnia, explain some of the inability to ever really truly be in her life. Because the bad things are still out there. Yeah, right.

Because she knows what's coming. It's a 24-7. Yeah, exactly. There's a devotion on the show to, there's a commitment to your ideas that I find very admirable. But I feel like sometimes you might be writing yourself into more and more difficult corners, right? Because last season, you did the hack, and Tyrell immediately became the most wanted human being in the world, which made his presence in this season very difficult, something you address by not really having him present on the season. Similarly, in the beginning of season one, when Elliot does this stuff to Lenny, there is a consequence to it.

And he's in prison, as we found out, this season. Going into the next season, you already have more of these set up now because, How does Darlene get away? She is in custody, which seems very unlikely that she's going to have her freedom back again. Elliot has a bullet inside of him. That's problematic. That's pretty problematic.

Do you? We're going to have to address that. Yeah, I feel like it's going to come up. I think. Or we could yada, yada, yada. Yeah, do it's Mr. Robo. We kind of do whatever the hell we want. No, no. I mean, honestly, you know, the thing that I love

about what we did in this season is we do address it but we find interesting ways to address it. Like the hack and the three days that kind of Elliot doesn't remember that ended the first season, we kind of, again, I always look at the show as like we're pulling back from a picture and as we pull back, every step we take, we're seeing more and more of it.

And the more we see, the more things change of what our understanding is. And that's sort of how I wanted to tell the story. You know, look, we could have done a more straightforward narrative, right? Where it's stage two, and let's say, I would never do this because I think this would be terrible, but if Elliot in the first episode of this season was like, yeah, I'm seeing a guy and he's, I guess, my other personality, but I got to do the stage two hack, and let's ignore that and let's just go plot, plot, and then end on whatever stage two is going to end up being. But that to me was never an interesting way.

an interesting storytelling approach, as I guess I would say. I guess the question there would be then. So if you've got this picture and you're showing different quadrants of the picture and zooming out and zooming in at different times, do you always know the whole picture? Yes.

So did you have the Tyrell Elliott's conversation written last year or written last season and you knew you were eventually going to shoot it like that for this season? Yes. You're talking about the way it ended with Terrell and Elliot. Pretty much the big markers for the whole series, I think we've got pretty figured out.

The details will change. And, you know, the, obviously, sort of some of the character subplots will develop and change and go in different directions. But in terms of having a dock on your computer with alf in it, that's been there for like five, six years. So that's something I could never have done alone. That's something that the crazy people in my writer's room and I would have to, like, figure out together.

And that's the stuff that kind of billows up in the room. You know, one of the things that I will say is that because we have this reality or surreality to the show that gives us a lot of creative freedom, if you will, to go in all these, like, wacky adventures. So I personally do not believe in, like, you know, we have the markers. We know the answers. Yeah. So we're not like, it's not like we're like just billing up mystery just for the sake of building

up mystery. But in between those markers, we get to have a lot. lot of fun. But that's a very different, it feels like it's a fine line because, you know, you're directing every episode of the show now, you're running the show, you're writing or rewriting or co-writing much of the show. It's coming from work you had previously done as a feature screenplay. To have that level of control, which is a bigger issue in general, because apparently control is an illusion. Apparently it's an illusion. Yeah. But sometimes you can use that. No, no, one. Sometimes you can use your illusion too. Sometimes. But. Which is

a good out, we should discuss that too. Let's just add it to the list, Chris. Yeah, we're going to be here for a while. You have this level of control, but you also have to have the lighter touch to allow things like, in this case, Alf to bubble up onto the show and have a place there. And that's my favorite thing about the show is that you never know which direction it's going to go. And I really, really, makes me very happy when Alf appears on an Emmy Award winning

show that is not Alf. I do remember I was shooting that scene that day. And I honestly, honestly, I think it was maybe two days after we got the nomination. I was kind of looking over it because my other EPs were there and I was like, you know, we just got nominated for. Am I pissing all over this? Yeah, exactly. And I've got Paul Fusco on the floor of a red, you know, corvette, like, you know. And then we kind of all at the same time, we're like, this is amazing.

This is awesome. Yeah. This is what you should be using. Yeah, exactly. The platform for it. You know, you talk a little bit about this idea that if you wanted to, you could have done a straightforward version of this show. And I think even in the earlier parts of the first season, they're. is this, you can see the framework for what the traditional USA network version of this would

have been with a hack of the week, where there's like a villain that Elliot brings down while there's like an overarching narrative. But it was funny to hear you, like, to hear burn notice get brought up last night. Was that funny? It was funny. And I was wondering whether or not, when you're writing the second season, when you're going through this process, how much of it is a reaction to it, it's still being a television show? Because I think that you're, A lot of the questions people brought up the season were about the pacing, were about the length of the episodes, were about how long a scene would go on versus traditionally how long that scene would go on if it was a burn notice scene. Right.

So, like, when you're making this, how aware are you of like TV conventions? Well, so any, and this is, you know, I'm, the honest answer to that is I'm not aware. Okay. Because, again, I've never done this. I've never been in a TV writer's room. And then I get told. You know, like the opening to episode, I'm going to call episode three,

which is in that one episode, we opened with a scene between Darlene and Elliott. It's a flashback in their apartment. And it's, I think, about 12 minutes long. And it's the two of them smoking weed watching the movie and catching up. That is ridiculous. That's ridiculous in a feature

that's definitely ridiculous in a television show. And there's no, there's no sense of, there's no sense of drama necessarily. Obviously there's, there's, there are things that get revealed, but there's not, they're not going toe to toe or anything like that.

It's honestly just sort of a, kind of a, these two reuniting. And we watched the scene. And, you know, it was, it was actually longer. I think it was like 60 minutes long. We trimmed it down, trimmed it down, got it to a certain point.

We watched the scene. We were like, we really like it. And honestly, at the end of the day, it's like, well, but you can't have a 12 minute and then the title card. Yeah. What the hell? You can't do that. But we really like it.

I don't know. Like, Carly's amazing. Rami's amazing. There's something interesting about what's happening in the scene. There's something underneath that's going on that you don't quite know. There's a lot of subtext to that scene. And so what we did was, and that episode in particular, it was pretty long. It was about 64 minutes, 63 minutes.

So I was like, look. And I, you know, like, I'm actually a guy, believe it or not, that does not love long episodes, purely because I... Purely because I don't, I don't like falling asleep halfway through and being like, fuck, now I got to watch it the next day. That would be amazing if, like, all through this season, you would be like, are you fucking kidding me, night of? 58 minutes, bro? Let me say this. One of my favorite TV shows this year was the OJ Doc. Yeah.

Did you guys watch this? The Doc, not the FX series, yes, Made in America. Made in America. Do you know how long those episodes were? They're like 90 minutes each. Yeah, yeah. I don't care that they're 90 minutes. The only reason why I cared was I basically fell asleep every night, the 45-minute mark.

But you know, you know what you're saying. You do that annoying thing where you have to rewind. I don't remember this part because it went 10 minutes after, you know, you have to rewind and figure out. That's honestly the only reason why. But otherwise, it was great. I mean, this weird thing, I remember I read a review of the night of the season finale, which is also 90 minutes long, where they were like, why didn't they just split it up into two? And for the life of me, do not, why don't you just pause it at 45 minutes

and go back to it a week later if you want to do that? Like, I don't get this need to break up running time. I think there's this assumption now that we've given so much control over the entertainment experience that the one thing that we still feel some sort of fidelity to is how it was presented to us. You know, that it has to be, this is how it was meant to. You read the instructions on the back. It said rinse, repeat, question mark. Sure.

But I think what Chris is getting at is an interesting point because I think there are people who make TV and follow TV conventions and TV conventions are powerful and conventions for a reason and often popular. There are people who make TV and aggressively flout those conventions, having often worked in the convention minds, you know, like someone like Matt Weiner who was on staff at Becker and then made Mad Men and made a very different kind of show. I think it's worth noting that I don't think you are even paying attention to the convention. You're kind of just making it. Right. I'm kind of just going with what feels right. And by the way, that's not to say that on the end, I'll be all. Because let me, to just finish that story. So then I showed that episode, I was like, it's long.

And we had just done a 62-minute episode the previous week. So I said, let me just show it to people. They're going to tell me that first scene you cut it down in six minutes. It's not resonating. Because, look, I can admit when I'm like maybe I'm too in love with something and I got to cut my losses or whatever. Everybody at the network loved it. I show it to all the editors.

I show it to all the assistant editors. I was literally begging people to tell me what don't you like about this. And then everybody was just like, no, this is good, solid go. And then I was like, okay, great. And then we release it. And then everybody else told me

that they hated it. And that's kind of how, I mean, no. I mean, all jokes aside, like that's sort of what happens. And I don't know if we're in a bubble or whatever, but then other people were then chime in and say, But then even that, because I read all the reviews and I read all the criticism, you for example,

I mean, maybe I'm jumbling episodes, but you, for example, didn't love the throwing up, right? Is that right? In that episode, you didn't love that whole sequence. With the picking the pills at the vomit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you thought that went on too long or whatever. Maybe I'm not right about that.

It's fair to assume I don't love people picking pills But you loved the Porsche, or I'll say Angela Philip Pricene at the restaurant. Loved it. Loved it. Seppinwall, you read Seppinwall's review, the exact opposite. That's good for our brands, though, to go in different directions? That's what I'm saying. So then it's like you get these differing...

We're being honest now. We're making very good podcast. We're making a good podcast. But it's true that it's purely subjective. But I do want to go back to some specifics of the finale, but since we're already talking about it, In terms of the running time, the thing that was interesting to me about it is that the beginning of the season, there were the longer episodes. And then you tweeted at one point. Basically, like a half apology for that.

The second half of the season, the episodes were more traditional running length. Was any of that by design, or was that a part of this pretty unprecedented block shooting, editing? You're directing every episode, yes. System that you had set up. No, it had nothing to do with that. It really had to do with... In those episodes, what I would have cut for time would have sacrificed too much in the table setting,

in the early episodes. Whereas when we started getting into the season, scenes that I loved but didn't really need were more apparent that I could cut that and put it in the deleted scenes on the DVD. So it was like, in the beginning, it was just tough because I couldn't really maneuver that much because if I cut certain scenes, then...

It affects everything else. It affects everything else, yeah. A couple more points on the finale before we move on to the stuff that we're already clearly talking about. Because we have to be servicing. Yes, yes, we do, we do. I was happy. I don't know if Chris was happy.

Look at his face. I mean, he does not look happy. I was happy. This is not a happy guy. I'm having a time of my life. What do you know what I like more? I like Scott Knowles. I like Brian Stokes Mitchell.

He's an amazing actor. He's amazing. And I really appreciated that, that twist. And that, you know, it's interesting. That won't even be called a twist because it wasn't like some meta-reality-reality-working reveal that the sad drunk. guy was messing with someone.

Right. That he was sending the messages to Joanna. But one of the reasons why I really like that is because for as much as you are doing these things on the show that you're tearing down global financial systems and questioning reality, someone was killed in season one and that death resonated. I appreciated that that wasn't just like a yada yada, Tyrell's a villain. We don't really care. That had a really agonizing effect on someone.

And it was interesting that you chose this moment, a finale. There's a lot of attention on a finale to remind us of that fact. Right. I mean, you know, one of the big things about this season were, you know, we wanted to really deal with the consequences of what these people did in the first season. And, you know, because he wasn't in this season that long, it doesn't mean that we still can't deal with the consequences of what Terrell did. Yeah, one thing you could definitely say about the second season is that in some ways it is a PTSD season, right? Like, everybody in it is dealing with all the trauma that they went through the first season, for sure.

Right, right, right. A couple more points. Elliot shot. That happened. That did happen. That's real. That is very real. Okay.

The phase two, the explosion of a major skyscraper. Just small correction. Don't ask me why, but it's actually stage two. Stage two, I'm sorry. Phase two is coming in season four. Because it's very linear thinking. Stage two, as far as we know, did not happen yet. We don't know.

It did not happen. Right. Or you can confirm that it did not happen. So that brownout, that's just a brownout at the last shot. That's the thing that we've been building up to. Okay. Those are happening. Those flickering, yeah.

Can you say how much time elapsed between Elliot getting shot, Mr. Robot flickering out, and Angela getting the phone call? This is my big question. That I cannot answer. Okay, but that's an important question. Yes, it is an important question. So we don't, so it's possible to, I don't want to say assume, it's possible to wonder if Angela, the last time we saw Angela

when she had this remarkable experience playing Zurich in a dark room with the child, to the steely person who is talking to Tyrell on the phone, that that's not like tomorrow. It wasn't necessarily just the next day. Right. But we can assume that Elliot is waking up. Correct. He is not dead. You're not threatening the death of your Emmy winning.

No, absolutely not. I think that's a safe assumption. Yes. Finally, the post-credit scene. Yes. One of my favorite scenes. Where was that film? Can you tell us where it was?

Is it tied to a place? Is that a real store? Well, I'll just say that, well, Mowgli talks about it a lot. His buddy in Arizona is a buddy in Arizona. Oh, yeah, his buddy. See, I thought, yeah, okay. I thought it was California, but I did too. No, the California one, fries, you know, always has those themes.

Oh, yeah. The California one, you mean the one in Burbank? Yeah. I saw a lot of reviews talk about that. They said Burbank, yeah. The Burbank one is actually a UFO, so it is not the same. Interesting. Okay.

The emergence of Mowgli and Trenden as major, semi-major characters, important characters. was a surprise, not an unwelcome one, because I like those actors, I like those characters and what they bring to the show. Great. This suggests an important role

for them going forward. Is that fair to say? Yes. And Leon's back. We're thrilled with that. I'm not going to get rid of Joey badass. Can't do that. You can't.

I mean, I've wanted him since the first season, so now that I haven't. You're not going to let him go? I'm not letting him go. Is he fine with that? How does he feel about his new experience? He loves it. I mean, I didn't know this until I met him,

but apparently he wanted to be that's the first thing he wanted to do. Oh, that's really cool. And he kind of like did this whole, you know, rapping thing. Yeah. But he's great. I mean, he's great at it.

Can, how would you describe the nature of his approach? Does he come in friendship or not friendship? Well, I can't answer that. Yeah, but I can ask you. So we've had, there are some theories, I mean, I know he can't say anything about this, but because of what he asks, which is, do you have the time?

It's a very white rosy kind of thing. It's a very white rosy kind of thing, yeah. Sam, I agree. He's forgetting this is mostly an audio medium, but for those listening to this as a podcast. Okay, so that's last night's finale. Right. And other like just house cleaning stuff,

you're not back in a room yet for season three. That'll happen in about two weeks. So you've already shot something for season three. Is that what I heard? Who are you talking to? I think Rami said that in an interview. Not with me. That's funny.

I'm not commenting on this. But yes, you did get... I have a question, though, about... So you've got this Emmy-winning star. Yeah. It was brilliant. There's a full... Of course, there's, like, a full episode

that he is absent from, for the most part, and then there is one that he's, like, 80% absent from him, correct? And you're talking about making, Mobley and Trenton into bigger characters, possibly, and television shows disperse as they get... Go on. Correct.

How hard is it to... not go ISO Rami, like you get the ball all the time. These are basketball terms, by the way. Chris is trying to bait you. Yeah, apparently I don't know anything about this. I so, what is this? He walked into it, by the way. We want to mention it again.

No, but like how hard is it to not play with your, like, your most expensive toy? Your point guard. Yeah, right. It's, I mean, that, let me just, let me just say this. When I started writing this as a feature, it was Elliot all day long, every scene, basically. That was a story.

And then when that first, whatever, when I started writing that first act, I went to 90 pages and I wasn't even a quarter of the way through the first act, the reason why that happened was because I started being more interested in the other characters. Okay. And that was what happened was like, well, wait a minute, I want to tell Darle, I want to go in this Darlene direction. I think Angela could be really fascinating in Terrell. And that's when I realized, oh, this isn't,

It can't be two hours because as much as I love my Elliott character, I love all these other worlds and all these other possibilities and the way that's going to affect and empower and also detract from Elliot. Like, I love the way that inner. And that's why I think that's sort of the beauty of TV. Absolutely. That's really the only time you're doing. But you're just in such a specific situation because so much of what you're doing is through his point of view. Yes. Yeah.

So it must be like, you. What I wanted to ask you about a lot of was had to do with the visual guidebook or Bible that you guys have established on the show and the perspective and how it changes if you're going to shoot the same way but with Dom as sort of the POV character. Right. Did you, when you were shooting those things, did you make subtle adjustments to the... Subtle. Okay. Soutle. The one thing is, you know, you always want cohesion when you can't...

And it would be corny, in my opinion. It would be corny if Dom gets like different beautiful lighting and a whole different saturated look and then you have a different look for another storyline. But you do these subtle little hints and subtle different little compositions but keeping in the same tone. We always wanted to keep the tone cohesive whether we're in Dom's storyline or Elliot's storyline. But we would always sort of give a different, and also with music, also with sound, we would give different kind of cues to the different storylines.

Yeah. One of the things that makes this unique for all of us is that, you know, Chris and I've been talking about the season the whole way through. We know, as you've said, you've listened to us the whole way through. And so now we have an opportunity to have all our words come back in our face, but also give you a chance to respond to them. So one of the ones, and you can cherry pick if there are things that are particularly upsetting you or. Yeah, yeah. Well, let me just say up front. And I mean this, and I really do mean this, because I'm not upset that people are critical about.

the show. It, I mean, does it hurt my feelings that night when I'm listening or reading it? Sure. I mean, I mean, I would be inhuman if I were to say, oh, I don't care, you know. Obviously, I'm a person I'm feeling, I want people to like it. If they don't, oh, that sucks. But at the same time, again, if they're, you know, intelligent people with insight and all of that, like, I'd love to hear why. And I'd love, because this is a, what's that Sorkin quote about, like, you know, you surround yourself as smart people. Best work. What's a podcast?

The classic sorgonism? Did he, did he sit? Just imagine if you asked me would. No, but it's the idea of surrounding yourself with smart people who disagree with you. Right. It's the team of rivals thing. You always love to bring up. I don't know why.

You're a little obsessed with that. Anyway, I love that. I love getting, you know, I always want to be better. And so it's good to hear the other side. Well, I think it's an incredibly healthy attitude that I think, like, I don't know if I was in the same circumstance, I'd be able to do it. But I also think one of the reasons why we're glad to have you especially

is because you are a very good advocate for your choices and for your ideas. And even hearing you talk about them have convinced me or turned me around on a couple of them. So one thing I want to talk about was my feeling about the shape of the season, particularly like the prison stuff and the reveal,

at the time my feeling was that it was going on for too long. My feeling with it in the rear-review mirror is that it was good to have that for the show and for the health of the show going forward, because in a way, it allowed you to do these sort of like stress tests, not to use a financial metaphor, but I just did, on the other characters and actors you had in the repertory.

Right. Because all of a sudden you could see, or maybe you could just show to us, that Portia Doubleday can hold her own on this show, that that character is an incredible resource, that this new character of Dom is worth watching, that her show is a good show, that Angela's show, Darlene's show, That's, as Chris was saying, just in terms of how a TV show needs to build outward, that's

enormously valuable. And the experience that Elliot had on his own is valuable for the character or understanding of him. But it was tougher to watch week to week. And so this becomes the question, because I don't want it to be tough. I mean, I know that there are some writers and directors out there that are like, well, it's tough because what he's going through is tough. And I want you to feel just as shit.

as this person is feeling right now. And you have to slog through that with... I don't believe in that. And honestly, there are a lot of great movies that I love, but I will not watch again because they're just tough to watch. I don't... Personally, my sort of taste in entertainment is I want it to be entertaining. I want it to say something.

I want it to be about something. I want it to be challenging in the right aesthetic, artistic ways. But I definitely want it to be. I definitely wanted to be entertaining at the end of the day. So when we go through those first few episodes, and I'm like, well, the honest thing is Elliot is not going to... Number one thing is I don't actually love plot.

I think plot is like that shit you have to have the characters say to the exposition, exposition. Who gives a shit? Like, you kind of know the need to get to the... Honestly, plot is an excuse for me to explore character and to explore worlds. and to explore choices that characters will make.

But the plot itself, it's like, okay, so, you know, like, you know, the plot of, like, going and beating the bad guy, that's every fucking movie and every... But it's how they do it and what choices they make along the way. That's interesting, right? So with Elliot, I knew from the outset

that it was going to be dishonest if he was going to essentially shrug this robot thing off and jump back on it. Like, he really needed a... be introspective and go deep dive into himself. And really, honestly, if, you know, putting yourself in his shoes, he's gonna wanna get rid of this thing. He's gonna wanna, he wants to be normal.

I mean, that's the thing he's been saying from the beginning of the show. So how do we dramatize that in an entertaining way? And that will feel honest. And you know, we talked a lot to the psychology consultant and we talked about the iterations. And those were, those, that's basically, in terms of Elliot's storyline,

those were the first few episodes. And how do we dramatize that in an entertaining way? Well, you know, you saw it. We have the Adderall Mon. He decides to basically overdose to get rid of them. That doesn't work. Then we have, like, you know, the essentially, like, let's come to Jesus moment. Let's play a game of chess and just, let's just battle it out.

Let's just battle the wills. When we watched that, when I pitched it, when I wrote it, when people commented, when they read, the one thing I'd say is this, are we two? too up our own ass here. It's just interesting. Are we saying something? Is he evolving? And the answer always for me had to be yes.

Obviously, the reaction, you know, and again, it's always mixed, right? I mean, because I know what your reactions were. And that was on the, I'm not getting anything out of this. And I'm not getting engaged out of this. You know, there were those that were. And then there were those that cherry picked and said, well, that was engaging with that we could have done with that. Ultimately, I can't, that, I can't.

That, I can't do anything. I can't convince you to, like, something or be engaged in something that you are not. Right. But we, you know, all I can say is those were, the choices were based on the fact that we found it engaged, we found that entertainment. I think that, you know, we talked earlier about this bubble that people watch these shows in, and I was thinking a lot about this. And, you know, I went back and rewatch the prison break episode from the first episode. And I was like, it's one of the best episodes of, yeah, first season. I've never seen that show.

What? I've never seen that. Prison break? Yeah. It's coming back. It's going to catch up. It's. No.

From the Prison Break episode. Oh, you were talking about my show. Yeah. I honestly thought you were talking about, I honestly thought you were talking about it. Oh, no. We're pivoting now. We're going to talk about other shows. Season 1 of Mr. Robot.

It's one of the best episodes of television I can remember seeing. It is, you're so wrapped up in it. And you can say like, oh, you know, the plot. And I totally understand what you meet intellectually, but you're really fucking good at it. So then when you see that happen, I think you're like, you are basically taught. You're teaching your audience how to watch the show. And they start to come to expect. a certain, whether it's intensity.

And that was kind of like, I think the thing that I had, the hardest thing was adjusting, like you're saying, like, I will never be angry at someone who's like, this is the show I wanted to make. You know what I mean? I get pissed off when people make shows. We're like, I think this is the show people want me to make. But you were like, I knew the whole time that you were

like, this is the version of the show that needs to happen to grapple with the version of the show that I made in the first season. It's just that people got used to being like, you could pull my hair out in 45 minutes so that when you do get a 12 minute Darlene Elliott's. But let me just say to that, which is we were going to, we knew in the room, and we did

in this season, we knew we were going to do that. We were going to do the plot stuff. Okay, the plot stuff. We'll get to that. I mean, that's all fun. But just like when you were talking about where we needed to broaden the characters, we wanted to broaden the scope of what we could do. I mean, one of the, and I'm not pivoting to Atlanta, but if you do want to talk about

Atlanta, we can't. Because I do love Atlanta. I thought you were going to say prison break. The secret text. I didn't keep hearing prison break is good. But anyway, regardless, like, last, a couple of weeks ago, you were talking about Atlanta. One of the things that you said, it actually struck me

because it literally was the thing I wanted to talk about, which is the elasticity of it. Yeah. The fact that, man, I will turn that, I've only seen four, but every episode is like, I have no idea what's going on. Like, I have no idea what's going to happen tonight. And there's only, like, sadly, probably like 30 shows in the last 20 years that you can say that about it.

I mean, in all... Most of them were in the last 15 years. Yeah. Right. And I felt like we were a show that let's, you know, empower... I mean, that was a conversation... That was literally one of the points that we brought up in the room, which is, let's go for broke. Let's do that.

Because we know we can do this. I mean, you know, but we want to do more. But I think this is the thing... This is where we are with TV now begins to bump up against what TV used to be, because TV, as groundbreaking as it is now, is still based on this... relationship of expectation with an audience where it's a very intimate experience like people who fell in love with the first season have the thing that they love and they're like I want that again you know I want to experience that again whereas you're looking at

it as an artist and saying I did the bender season now I can do the hangover right and that interests you and you're gonna chase that but let me just say this I don't think it's good to do it again I don't think I would I don't think this season it may have been more liked it may have been more like and then whatever I can't I can't know in hindsight. But I know for me as a, as a viewer, too, because I'm looking at this as what do I want to see when I go home. Like, if I were to see season one, like what you guys pitched, you know, let's just do F, you know, he's now hacking F-Corp for season two. Yeah, right. There's a new Shela and, you know, these are all terrible, I'm sorry, terrible

ideas. That's right. Terrible ideas. I wanted you to specifically rebut what we turned into last, because we caught ourselves on this podcast being like, wait, we are the cliched network Exactly. We're saying make the protagonist more likable, give him a girlfriend. What if he was a robot? What is it about your show that turned us into these people that we rail against? That I don't know. And what's interesting is, I think we, I mean, in a weird way, I was actually talking to Noah Hawley about this, because he watches the show.

And he was telling me how, like, in the first season, you kind of touched a little bit on the rally. Noah Holly created just Fargo. Yes. Brilliant, brilliant. both seasons brilliant. Anyway, he was like, you kind of touched on the rabbit hole. You wouldn't dip your toe

into the rabbit hole in the first season. But it was, you know, mostly you kind of understood where it was going. And then in the second season, you were just like, no, we're going down, deep down into the rabbit hole. And honestly, the plot then just became the little side things that were, oh, okay, we'll get to that. I just thought that was more challenging. That was more interesting.

And I think clearly we're taking risks. And obviously, what can happen when you take a risk is you get a divisive reaction. And, you know, one of the things was, is like, are we going to squander this opportunity? I've never made a television show before. I got a chance to make a television show. Am I going to squander the opportunity to just please people and make sure that, you know, they get exactly what they're expecting? Hey, guys, just want to tell you a little bit about Jaguar.

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in terms of we're coming out of this post-recession hangover. People are getting screwed over left and right by the government. Here's a guy who's lost family members, who's friends of lost family members, because of this sort of corporate mega complex that's destroying America. And he does something about it. And there was some real, like, relationship, I think, to real life there. And I think that the second season went so far out into not outer space, obviously.

But like, started, what's that? Outer space. Elliot Hacks the Moon. God, we're good. That's my next pitch. Don't get it. Call me, USA. Look, Shayla's back.

He hacks the Moon. Mr. Moonbot. Let's go. Green light. But the fact that you're talking about the rabbit hole, sometimes I think I felt like the light. from the top of the rabbit hole was a little bit hard to see. In terms of its relationship to,

and maybe this isn't even you, this is the toilet we just dropped into, yeah, right, right. But you know, when you're shooting this, when you're watching this, and then you're also watching what's happening in the world, how much does that stuff cross your mind? You know, obviously with the first season, it was born from like the real world, right?

Like I'm watching, I'm reading, and I'm like, I need to make a near right story about this. But in the second season, because we we were already into it. I'm continuing it. And you know, like, look, the, Trump becoming the Republican nominee happened while we were, I think, in the, no, it was still,

he was still, he was kind of winning. It was the primaries and we were still writing. But the problem is, is that we couldn't let that affect us because we're in, we're now in our story. We're now we've begun it to then start adapting and start including Trumpisms and, you know. Plus the story is said in 2015. Right.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So maybe by the fifth season. That's right. When they're on the moon, looking at the smoking crater of America. That would be good.

But to answer your question, what's crazy about that? Because I know your tastes a little bit. Yeah, team of rivals. Read a couple. Team of rivals. George Kerns Goodwin all day, every day. To mean, like, abstract, to talk about, to tell stories in the abstract,

to do things like what you guys kind of hurled a lot of the half-hour comedies, what they are doing is they're going, into these really weird, surreal, what we talk about with Atlanta or Louie or any of these things, there's like a real freedom in there that dramas tend to not have. Especially now as they've become more formulaic. Yeah. Well, because you're expected to follow a plot.

You're expected to either do something every week the same, which is those procedurals, or from season to season to season, you're expected to have a season arc, a season goal. There's a big bad at the end of it. There's always, and Breaking Bad, one of my favorite show ever, right? Sopranos probably up there too, maybe their neck and neck. Both of them kind of did that same thing where there was a big bad or a new big bad every other season and a new level, which is great. But like how, like now we're here, right? And everybody expected us to kind of follow one of those models.

But like, well, no, we want to do the thing that we're seeing all these other great shows doing. We want to do the thing that like maybe we go into the abstract. I just think we're at this point where our ambition and hopes for TV are outstripping just the way we're watching it. You know, and we're not, because I was really struck by the fact that Chris and I, when we paused last week and we were like, wait, what are we saying? Sorry to go back to that. But like, what are we actually saying here? What do we want from these experiences? You know, we say we want this sort of creativity and ambition.

And then when we get it, you know, and I think that one of the things that's admirable about the show is that you're willing to take the risk and not land everything that you put up into the air. Yeah. You know, but if we talk about season two of Fargo, like, I love the spaceship. I love that there is a fucking spaceship. I loved it. Because why not? And similarly, my favorite thing, non-alph category of Mr. Robot season two is the Angela interrogation scene. Which you didn't love.

Now, I'm curious, curious. And honestly, because I just want to understand because I know you're in general, in general, like a fan of that stuff. Yeah, of course. So what was it? I mean, I'm just, if I can ask. It's my fault. The tables have turned. I felt like it was too real.

Like, I felt like the fact that it wasn't a dream made me angry. I felt like the fact that it worked and that she walked out of there and she was like, I've been convinced. I went through this experience that if, I mean, honestly, obviously, in the world of Mr. Robot, in any number of things would have been the weirdest, craziest things that have ever happened to most people in their lives. But she goes through an experience that she should be like, wait, what the fuck? fuck just happened. Like, was that a version of me in that room?

Like, why was there, like, why was the door locked? Why is the fish dead? How did, how is, what is that person? Well, that gets explained. Yeah, all that stuff. Ran out of water. And then I feel like, I didn't get, I just, I felt like you and your logic. It played with dream logic in a reality. And I think that

that, and the fact that I got stuck in Beyonce traffic on the way home before I watched it, had a lot to do it. But that plays into I think, some of the things we wanted to, to to steer the conversation back to, which is the way that we are, which is, Queen Bee. Lemonade, the majesty of that record. No, the way that we watch these shows. I still do not understand how Lemonade did not win.

I mean. How it didn't win. I don't, it didn't win anything, right? Like, it was nominated for all these Emmys. The 5-9 hack, how it didn't. Oh, at the Emmys. I was like, which award ceremony are we talking about? It was like Critics' Choice.

No, it didn't, wasn't enough for Emmys? The visual part of it, yeah. Yeah, so I'm talking about the film. I guess is it considered a film? It was considered a special. Who won instead? Special for TV. I don't know.

It's a really good question. I know some guys who did an Emmy show, and they probably know, but we don't have access to them right now. I've derailed your point. No, no, it was just that the way you can control many things about making the show and how you want it to look, how you want it to feel, how you want to deliver it. But the way people watch it is still not in your control. And so that, you know, so I feel like when Chris and I talk to the next day, his mood affected how he watched the show that night. Also, and a lot of people are experiencing that.

There was also, it was also specific to Angela, because I feel like Angela was somebody who went through, to me, Angela had a three-day blackout period too. Because some of her transition to tight ponytail, like Ice Queen, and doing what she's doing in this season was still a little murky for me, and I think that was partially why I was just like, what is this?

Like, what are we doing here? Right. But I, you know, I think I ended this season with a much greater appreciation for the whole than I did when I was going through. That was my question. Were you making it for a week-to-week in your mind? Are you making this 10, now 12-hour film? Well, so let me ask you a question because, you know, I've been asked that question. And, you know, is it better binge?

Is it better week-to-week? How am I supposed to know that? Like, how am I even supposed to guess that? Well, because you watch TV. I do watch TV, but I'll, it's weird. What's a show that's better been? in week to week. And I could probably tell you,

I could still watch that show week to week. You know what I mean? I don't really know the difference. Because... I think part of it is mood. I think part of it is like you're putting together a state of being, right? So much of this show is so atmospheric

that it almost felt abrupt to end it and start it. And here's probably the bigger... What I have heard is the commercial breaks. Like, and because I don't cut it with... commercial breaks. They kind of do that later. They know, you know, you can't do that in front of Sam because Sam gets pissed off. Like, they disrupt me while I'm watching. I don't want to watch it at the commercial. So they just, so, and I don't do that because I'm in it. I'm in the world, the music, the whole thing, the tone. It's very much to me, like, you got it, it's a complete experience. That's why Chris does the ad reads on this podcast. Got it's right. Which, by the way, really take me out of the mood. See? But they also keep us here in this nice studio. It's right. Please, please go on. No, I'm just saying, like, I'm just saying, like,

I don't know how disruptive that is, but I also don't want to lean on that as an excuse. I have no, you know, I was talking about Empire Strikes Back the other, with some of the, when I was doing some of the interviews of post-mortems. And so I decided to Google it, because in hindsight, I've talked to you about this, in hindsight, I was like, we kind of did like a little bit

of an Empire Strikes Back here, because there's the sister. And Luke is like, yeah, is often doing his own thing. And also the ending, because I was also think, because that I couldn't talk about at the time, but the ending of Empire Stride. Do you remember how that movie ends? Hans Sol is frozen.

Frozen in Carbonite. Empire basically kicks everyone's ass, and Princess Leia is like, you know, basically fleeing. And you get told that Darth Vader is Luke's father and his hands. His hands cut off. Yeah, he's in the hospital. I mean, it is the bleakest ending

with a million cliffhangers, and it's still my favorite Star Wars movie. Yeah. So I go on Wikipedia, I'm like just curious, because I had to make sure that that was the ending. And the first couple paragraphs, I'm reading mixed reactions on Empire Strakes back when it was released. Yeah. Which I was shocked. Do you even remember that? But isn't that because you don't know where you were going yet?

Exactly. And I think in a weird way, maybe after Return of the Jedi, you look back and you're like, oh, no, that's better than the Ewox. Right. I mean, definitely it was better than the Ewox. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I think the appreciation I have for that movie kind of The fact that they don't have all the answer you don't have all the answers You have questions and it is darker and murkier and it is more introspective

All those things I think made me a pre I mean I don't ever remember disliking Empire Strikes back But I was kind of shocked to hear that people were mixed on that at the time But isn't this indicative of this weird State you find yourself in where you you know you finish the season of television but that is part of a journey that you have plans for You have answers that you're not going to tell us. You have ideas and you have plans and you have different tones that you want to play with. But we've reached this, at this point,

almost artificial segmentation of your story, and I have to sit down and explain it. Well, and it's weird too that, and personally as a viewer when people are like, I need answers. And if I don't have answers, I don't like it. You know what I mean? To a certain extent, I understand the frustration. Because at a certain point,

if you're not getting any answers and you're just like totally in the dark about everything, everything. Right. And then you're just too untethered to any, to invest in anything. That I get. But obviously I think we dole out answers. I mean, even in the finale, I mean, I remember reading all these articles, the five things Mr.

Robot must answer in the finale. Eight things, here are the eight big questions. And I'm like, well, okay, let me, so I'll do what I can. I fill it out like an Us Weekly survey, you know, do we answer? And we pretty much answered 95 percent. But guess what? We also asked more questions. Those answers led to bigger questions. Well, no, I need the answers to those two on top of the ones that you're going to ask.

And it's like, well, that's not the show. That's not a mystery. That's not, you know, storytelling is all about what you want to know what, we want you to want to know what happens. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to read stuff like that. There's somebody who produces a lot of it. I apologize. But, you know, and I think that that echoes something that Lindeloff used to say when he was doing towards the end of Lost about what people needed to know and what was going to be an answer.

But another movie that you've brought up a couple of times in the sort of post-finality interview process has been Jackie Brown, right? So you're talking about Jackie Brown, you've got the last act of Jackie Brown, you've no idea whose team she's on. But you do know that she's on Jackie's team. Right. And that is the difference, right? That is like

the main difference when you're watching Mr. Robot is you have like, you're not entirely, you have to know that Slater is an extension of his personality. So in some ways, there is a part of his brain that wants to blow up a building. Correct.

And that is, I think, what people, when people are like, I need answers, it's almost what they're saying is, I need the motivation, or I need to know the truth about who this person is. I need to know what he wants. Yes. Right. Right. And that's a very good question, right?

Because motivation's big, it's huge in storytelling. It's the thing that you can latch on to, right? And that to me, like, one of the big things we talk about in the writers room is, well, what if you take that motivation and make it front and center? two different things are colliding within one person. I mean, literally you have, and there's mystery around what does he want, what is he aware of at any given moment in terms of what his other side wants. And then to play the psychology of it, because a lot of the shows about psychology,

is what does that mean that he wants to blow up a building? What does that mean that he actually got shot and asked Terrell to shoot him if something got in the way. Those things happened. That was a person that asked another person to do that. I mean, that to me is where it can get really fun. Clearly, it's... Fun is really funny.

Fun as a creator. Yeah, of course. No, not even just as a creator. For me, as a viewer, I can now sit there and be like, wow, that motivation is not surface level. There's subtext to it. Like, you know, Jackie Brown, she wants the money, right? Yes.

Clearly. And that's great. And that's clear, and it's a fun ride to go on. But if Elliot wants to take down society, and that means he'll commit suicide, and he's got this other side of his brain, and it's almost suicidal, it's almost crazy, and he's partly in the dark about it,

what is underneath all of that means? Do you know what I mean? Absolutely to make TV out of that. It's very difficult. It's very challenging. And I could say, let's not do that then. I mean, it's breaking news on this podcast? That sounds too hard.

Let's go to the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do the easy route. You know what I mean? But obviously that loses people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That will lose people. That's the risk.

So what, so this season was, is over now. It's unprecedented in a lot of ways what you did. You directed every episode. You did this. As you said to me and you said to others, you felt like that was the easier choice because you would have been laying away wondering what people would have been doing to your work anyway.

But you did it in this very specific, very exacting, time crunch, you know, you delivered the episodes that were, I think it was broken as 10, it aired as 12 technically. What have you learned from this season that you're pivoting into next season? And I mean that on two levels, both in terms of what did you learn

from making the show the way you made it this year and then, if anything, from the reaction specifically to Chris's criticisms. Well, I mean, I mean, let me address Chris's criticisms. I love this podcast. I mean, it's amazing. Because, I mean, even just going back to what we just talk about with the motivation,

it's still, that to me is something like I want to calibrate. I want to understand, because obviously I find you, I respect you. Thank you. Respect your, Chris. Not me. No, I mean, that goes without sense. I'm an after show host. But I mean, if you look at it, like, you know, there's one thing that you kept saying that I'm very tempted in season three to just, okay, we'll do that.

And the one that... You could call my team. We'll give you points. No, the one thing you kept saying is, I forget the word, true north. What's my true north? Yeah. Where are we going?

Where is my eye supposed to focus on? I'm not doing an impression of you. That's just... That's fine. It's pretty accurate. And so I remember we made the choice deliberately not to do that. We were like, isn't it cool to decrypt that,

to kind of in, from episode to episode, sort of decrypt, oh, this was the goal. And stage two was the thing at the end. Because there was something very hackneyed, to be honest with you, about announcing that in the beginning and then sort of following. I just felt like I've seen that million times. I feel like that just seemed like a weird trope.

So when in thinking about season three, I thought about that, I thought about, well, should we do that? Because I know, I know where we're going to, like I said, I know where the markers are. So do we announce that in the beginnings of people have something to latch on to it? But then I watch these other amazing shows, and I'm like, I can't. And I'll bring up Atlanta. Sure.

I guess he's trying to give Paperboy a rap career. Like, is he trying to make him? I have watched four episodes of that show, and I have not, I've seen maybe two minutes of that storyline being serviced. I think they're just slow pitching. You're just playing with a different chemistry set, though, because he's also not trying to destroy Paperboy's career. Which is like, if you were making it, he might actually, there might be, like, the two sides of it. And I think that that's what I say true north. It's not like I'm like, lay it out for me.

I'm just like, see, now actually, because the more we talk about it, the more I've thought about it, the more I feel like. So when I watched last night, I was like, man, stage two is pretty vengeful and brutal. It's actually just very... It's old... It's terrorism. We recognize as terrorism. And by the way, in light of what happened in the last weekend, I was like, wow, this is crazy. Yeah.

And, you know, I think I read some reviews where they were like, oh, it's just blowing up... No, this is... People are in there. Yeah, yeah. It's a bomb. That's why when you see the blackout at the end of the episode, I was like, oh, Jesus Christ. But the more I think about it, the more I thought about it since then, I was like, it kind of works that if you are dealing with someone who is unthinkable...

hinged who does have multiple personalities who for part of this season we've been wondering whether or not Wellick was a function of you know like a projection of his personality that this irrational cruelty and and these inexplicable acts that he might not have a true north.

And if you're doing a show from a perspective of somebody like that it's not going to feel like he obviously just wants to erase all debt. That's the whole point of the show. That we want to get back to a point where we don't aren't all owned by companies. Right. Right.

Well, I just, I just think it also gets complicated, right? Life gets in a way, and for Elliot, obviously, it's very complicated because he's obviously dealing with these issues internal and extra, like the things that have you set in motion or things his other half is set in motion. But I think also about, just again, because I want to harp on Atlanta because I do love that show, but sometimes it's about taking your girlfriend out and just trying to afford fish at market price.

It was a fish. It was. He got the fished with market price. But because season was, he got the fished at the market price. But because season one of Mr. Robot ended with this global hack, Elliot can't take Jayla out for MarketPrice fish anymore. Also because she's dead in a trunk of a car. That is true.

So you can't, I don't, is there room. But I want my cake and eat it too. That's what I mean. You want to find those pockets. You want to have room for the things. And maybe those idiosyncratic moments end up being a fish slowly dying. As soon as boring girls start taking E-coin will be good. That's a really good point.

You guys cut onto that pretty quickly. The E-coin thing? Yeah, the currency. What else did people, okay, people... There's one thing that. people have not caught on to, which I mean, it's one of those things where I'm like, I'm telegraphing it, you know, and they're all going to tell me. It's his dad.

Yeah, that kind of thing. But yeah, no one's caught onto it. You don't want to break news here. You want to give us that one? This is actually Back to the Future for? God. I want to ask you about that one because that's really exploded. That's our friend Sarah.

I'm available from back to him. Can you confirm or deny at this moment that whether our friend Sarah Lewin's theory that Elliot is Terrell's son grown up and there's time warping going on? Just for the sake of Sarah, I'm neither confirming or denying it. That's awesome. She will be thrilled by that. But the music choices in that episode were just because you love the movies. I do love those movies.

I mean, Back to the Future is, Back to Future 2, specifically. That's a really interesting choice. Oh, can I ask you? Yeah. Because when we talked about this last week, Chris claimed that he had never heard of this. When you were... I can't believe you've never seen it. It's just one of the same age.

I know it has like the surfboard. Did you have the hoverboard rumor in your... school to that they were real? I don't remember that, Andy. It's like one of the formative experiences of my life. This is a Berenstain thing. Maybe, you know. Yeah, I remember them that way too.

I guess the only other thing that I wanted to make sure we got to was just. Did we get it? We got to, we covered a lot. We got a lot of leg work. We're almost done. I promise. No, please, please. Yeah, I'm having fun.

The thing that, my biggest takeaway though, and I mentioned it briefly, I just wanted to get your thoughts on it, like I think the most amazing thing that directors can do is not just casting good actors in parts, but casting actors and then giving them opportunities to do things that other people have not seen them do that they're suddenly capable of, maybe even surprising the performers themselves. And I keep coming back to Portia, I don't know if she was probably confident, but no one who saw the first season of the show knew Angela would go in that direction. Right. And I don't know if anyone knew Portia was going to pull that stuff off, and she was the MVP of the season to me. It was an amazing performance. She was amazing, yeah.

When did you know that that was possible? How far did you feel? feel comfortable pushing her? And how quickly did you realize, oh, she can do this? Well, at the end of the first season, when we did that shoe store scene, and I was like, and she did that scene, and I still watch that scene. It's like a fascinating scene purely from an actor's point of view, because I'm watching her, and I cannot read,

I don't think I intended for her to be that ambiguous about it, but I could not read whether she liked this or she felt shame. of man, I really just was condescending with this poor shoe salesman. And no, I gotta remember who I am. I'm the nice, and she was just right in the middle. I mean, she really wasn't one way or the other,

because she could have played it like a total like, you know, go get my prodas and get out of here, be gone with you. And she, but she didn't, she really didn't do it either way. And that really informed the second season because that was the whole Jackie Brown trigger for me. That was like, oh, we got, because that move,

is genius in hiding the motivation. Well, I guess we cleared that up. The motivation, motivation was clear, but who she was going to play to get to that, I mean, it was genius in hiding that. And it was such a great storytelling choice that when I knew that Portia was like,

wow, she's in the zone for that. Yeah. I was going to exploit the hell out of that. What do you drive the most pleasure from in making the show after doing it for two years? Is it things like, obviously, Rami winning the other night was amazing? the adulation and excitement coming off the first season

of the second season must have been a lot of fun. But I wonder, having spoken to you and of watching the show, do you collect those moments? Because as a filmmaker, you're always chasing the next one. So you look back on the shoes and you got the shoe, you nailed the shoe scene. You think about the karaoke moment. You're like, I got that moment.

I got that incredible shot. Does it become a collection of those shots and moments to you, or is it more cumulative? I think it's more cumulative. Because I'm always, because this isn't, I don't think about it in seasons. I think about it in the two pieces of the end game. The chapter.

Yeah, exactly. And we're not even done finishing, writing the novel or whatever, finishing the movie or whatever. And it's almost like you're getting all this feedback of like, oh, that was cool, well, that wasn't. But I'm not done yet. Let me finish. So in a weird way, I try not to get distracted by it.

It's a fascinating divide between the creation of the perception of it, from the way we're experiencing it, the way people are processing television, so the way it must be like, I have like a three, four, five season arc that I'm working on. This is only, we're not even halfway through yet. Right, right, right, right. Well, but also, I don't know if a lot of TV's made that way.

No. They do think about it as enclosed stories. I'm sure it's week to week for a lot of people. Sometimes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So before we let you go, I feel like you've been so generous with your time to us, what would you like to talk about? Do you want to take us to task for anything in particular, anything else we got wrong?

Yeah, you like designated Survivor? Anything else? I haven't once designated service. You guys both watched her. I haven't listened. The Jean-Favreau thing, I haven't listened to that. Wow. Walk off the set right now.

We watched all of your show. Seriously, I watched Mr. Robot last night. You're just skipping around? Wait, wait. I don't want to take you to ask on anything, but I do want to know, like, because you guys get all the goodies, you know, and I haven't found a-

Tons. So I've got Atlanta, right? Yeah. I've got better things. I like better things. Okay. But where are the dramas? So there's...

Did you like Night Up? Did you watch Night Of? I love Night of. I did disagree with it. We're going to talk about this next week, but I am pretty obsessed with Gomorra right now. Is that good? It is the darkest thing I've ever seen on television, I think. And it's great.

I haven't watched it yet. Yeah. I mean, it's... It's my homework. It's kind of... It is, I would describe it almost as rewarding homework. Okay. All right.

I'll add that to the list. I'm not like ever like, boy, I'm really glad I'm like... I'm going to be... I mean, but Easy doesn't sound like a drama to me, right? No, it's like it's true. It's half hour insulations. I'm excited about that. But comedy's where it's at right now.

Half hour's where it's at. This is what's sad about drama. It's that... But I... No, I mean, like, I love the comedies, but I really wish... I want there to be like that drama I can sick myself, you know,

sick my teeth into, you know? I think... But it's cyclical. I mean, I think that people were getting frustrated with what drama's being same-e, and now all the creative energy is going to comedies, and now, you know... Let me ask you a question,

because you... I know you didn't... Horse and Pete. Yeah, I couldn't get. I couldn't get through it. I didn't. First of all, I should tell to our listeners, say to our listeners. By the way, listeners, an amazing show, probably my favorite drama of the year.

I've got to be honest with you. When you arrived on set for Hacking Robot episode one, you told me that the only thing you wanted to talk about, on USA's Air, after your own premiere was Horace and Pete. I mean, Horace and Pete was that experimental, original, inventive week-to-week. And maybe this is also a factor of how I have to watch TV or the amount of that. that I was having to watch, it was something that, and remained something that I admired, but didn't take enough pleasure out of to continue

once my professional obligations to it were over, which is a terrible way to think about this. Right. But I would love to see the Lori McKaff monologue. I bet it's amazing. So you didn't get that far. I made it, that's three, I made it too. I think you should watch it.

I think it's a great show. I think it's, I think it's so underrated. I was a little bummed that didn't get as much love as some other shows. And I honestly, I hope he does another season, But I honestly think Louis is, to me, that's, I mean, if it, if it, if there's any singular vision on TV, film, wherever, it's, it's Louis C.K. He's, he's brilliant. Off the charts for me. Well, he also, he does, he does, yeah. I mean, he does, yeah. And honestly, and there's something, because sometimes it doesn't work for me, like, I'll watch him, whatever, and it doesn't work. But that, that feeling you're talking about where you don't know what you're going to get.

Yeah. I find it more forgiving in the half-hour format. Like, there are episodes of Louis that I dislike, and there are episodes of Louis that I think. are some of the best things I've ever seen on TV. And for some reason, I roll with it because they're 30 minutes long. But aren't they... Well, but even Horse and Pete, some of the episodes are like, okay, I'm not sure. I don't know what I got it in. It was 40 minutes long or whatever.

But it's so worth... It's so worth those moments to get the rewards of those... It's an indictment of my impatience, because I'm sitting here saying... Everyone that I respect liked it. I agree that it is probably good, and yet I have not done this. This is also could be the long... Please revisit it. It could be the long tale of me not.

having to watch everything anymore because I'm not doing that anymore. So now I'm just like, I don't have to watch you. Just airplane movies all the time. Apparently movies are pretty good sometimes. I didn't know that. Have you seen a movie you like recently? I think. What's been out recently? Don't look at me. I've been on a plane in six weeks. I saw Sully. Okay. I liked Sully. Okay. It's fun. It's fun. Did you guys watch it in a year? It wasn't. I'll watch it in a year. Yeah, I did. No, actually, I will never watch that on an airplane. I like some worst ever airplane. Yeah. Yeah. I also liked that that was, I mean, weirdly. You guys saw Snowden. I I haven't seen Snowden. I saw Sanchez Snowden.

Yeah. You have not? Yeah, I saw it. And it was... I did not like it. Well, I mean, it's... Everything I knock about hacking, or movies about hacking... I thought you meant hacking robot.

No, I mean, like... You want to criticize it? No. You were amazing. Is that what this is all about? Yes. This is... You guys do a podcast about me.

You did an amazing job. Affirmation. No, how... We'll let you go after this, but it is remarkable that considering the amount of work that you had, and, like, your life was just divided into, like, these 10-minute increments of you were editing every episode until you finished like two weeks ago basically right before the finale you're about to go back into it You were still finding time to consume and enjoy culture. I love it I love it because I think it teaches me you know the whole this whole thing it's like

It's what I said earlier about not squandering this opportunity because I know that when the per whenever I turn on a TV show I want whoever is behind that whatever or a project that they're putting on to fucking blow my mind. Oh you know what's great Fleabag. Fucking. Completely agree. Fucking great. And they take chances and they take risks. And sure, you might get shit on by critics.

Not this one. But you still do them. And it's all worth it because you get these amazing inventors. And a great way to tease that Phoebe's on the podcast next week. Next Wednesday. Oh, is she? She was here yesterday. She's amazing.

Watch Fleaback on Amazon. I've only seen like three episodes. I have an last question that I don't know if you're going to answer. So Empire Strikes Back. Jackie Brown. I know you talked about usual suspects, all films that kind of help. helped shape the second season. Yeah.

Give me some homework for the third. For the third. Because everyone has to take you to your next interview standing up now. They're biting their nails. I can't say, and I'll be honest with it, here's the reason why. Because I actually, it kind of comes to me in hindsight.

Okay. It would be so dope if you were like Blues Brothers. Yes. Stripes. Can we just tell people that? Yeah, definitely. It's stripes. Season three, stripes.

People watch flea bag and stripes. I know. And Horace and Pete. And then you get to make sense of great. All right, Sam, you have been a good friend to the pod. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks so much for coming by, man. This was great.

I mean, guys, I'm a fan boy. I don't know if you know. I love this pod. The third chair. This is good podcast that we did today. I thought this was good podding. Third chair is always open to you. I know you have a lot of free time.

This is it kind of, this is me? That's Sam's chair. But is Phoebe going to be? No, that happened already. That happened yesterday. Oh, okay, great. Oh, you guys, there's a whole time shifting. There's a thing you can do it post-production.

Reality bending thing. Let me tell you about Edding. This podcast has no true north. All right, this has been an amazing experience. Sam Esmell on the watch. Congratulations on Season 2. Thanks for joining us, man. Thank you guys.