The Watch - Ep. 80: 'The Andy Greenwald Podcast' With Phoebe Waller-Bridge

Episode Date: September 28, 2016

Phoebe Waller-Bridge, the creator and star of Amazon's 'Fleabag,' joins Andy Greenwald to discuss comedy, creativity, and breaking the fourth wall. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Andy Greenwald podcast is brought to you by Jaguar, the art of performance. To learn more about the all-new Jaguar XE, visit jaguar USA.com. To the Andy Greenwald podcast. Hello, my name is Andy Greenwald. This is my podcast, which is now exclusively part of the Watch podcast feed and part of the Ringer Podcast Network. You can subscribe to this show by subscribing to The Watch on your iTunes, your soundclouds, your stitchers, and I hope that you do. Guys, I'm so happy to be back doing these interview podcasts. It's been a minute, mostly because I was moving across the country.

But that's no excuse. I had to bring you the piping hot content. And we have some content for you today with a truly special guest. Phoebe Wallerbridge is the creator, writer, and star of the new BBC slash Amazon series Fleabag. All six episodes of the series are streaming now on Amazon, and I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest that you check them out. It is an incredibly funny, bawdy, ultimately emotionally devastating, and sneaky, sneaky, brilliant series. I was about to call it a comedy, but it's not really a comedy, which is what makes it so good.

I think you'll watch the first episode and you'll like it and you think you know what it is, and then you'll watch the second, the third, and then by the fourth you'll be blown away. I certainly was, and I mentioned that to Phoebe in this great interview. She's been over from London for a few days here in L.A. having meetings and not going to the beach, which is something we talked about. But mostly we talked about her creative process, how hard it is to write, which she seemed genuine about, but then again she also wrote and created and starred in two TV shows this year. Her other show crashing is on Netflix now, so I don't know how seriously to take her,

but you should all take her very seriously as a talent to watch and hopefully an interview guest to listen to. Let's get into it, my conversation with Phoebe Waller Bridge. In my experience, limit. no one loves Los Angeles like no one with the intensity with the ardor with the commitment and I don't know if that's been your experience I love it

I do love it I think I've had quite a charmed experience of it you stole John Snow's coat but I've lost I've lost many friends to LA because they yes

they come yeah they fall in love they fall hard and I think the it's mainly it's mainly the promise of sun every day I think that's it Which, from what I gather, is not one of the selling points of London. Not one of the common reasons people cite for moving to London. Although we've done pretty well.

We had like two weeks of it this year in summer so far. How did people handle it? They panicked. I think they kind of opened all the prisons and everyone out. Start over. To be close off. And everyone said, you know, incest took hold. All the stereotypes melted away instantly.

Yeah. But everyone's got back together now because, you know, it's raining again last week. So we're all fine back to normal. That's good. But yeah, I love it. I love it here. It's really cool. I haven't quite like done the beach days or anything yet. Right. I know where a big pool. Have you done a beach day? I did. I did. The first week here, we went three times and then I told someone that and they said, oh, you're new. I haven't been in six months. Like it's like passe to do that. Over it. Just there. No, and then the worst of the people who say, oh, I'm so glad it's cloudy

today. Give me a break. Give me a break. You know where you, you know where it's cloudy? Literally everywhere else. Everywhere else. I know, it is magic. It really is magic. Tate, are we going? Because I thought that was gold. We could just call it there.

I feel like, you know, get the local spirit, get the local spirit. People into it. I will do an intro, but I'll reintroduce you. Phoebe Waller Bridge is here, drinking a boxed water, which is a rare commodity here in California. The box water? Just the water, I think. The boxes they've got.

Yes, because I've seen a lot of boxes. They've got plenty of. Yeah, there's plenty of room for that. Very excited to speak to you. Your series, Fleabag, is on streaming all six episodes on Amazon now, originally made for BBC 3. Correct. I love the series very much.

But what I wanted to say initially was my love of the show blossomed as the series went on. I liked the first episode very much, and I said, oh, I understand what the show is. And then I continued watching it, and I realized my assumption was wildly off base. not understand what the show was. It was in fact a much deeper, much better, much richer show. And it really rewarded viewing, especially it was the fourth episode where I completely fell in love and then was floored by the end of it. And I was curious how much of that was in your mind as you were preparing the series because one of the gifts of a television show or a series is you can develop something. You can bring people, bring an audience in and then bring them deeper. But at the same time,

you want to give them a sense of what the show will be and pacing becomes so important. So as you were adapting the series from a one-woman show that you had done at Edinburgh. Talk to me about that thought process of how you were going to space it out. How are you going to build in those pauses and those revelations to give it the effect that I experienced? It was deliberate to start to kind of try and do a slight magic trick with, or you think this is a kind of slightly bawdy, sexually voracious kind of female character that's just like, you know, having a wild time about town.

Right. and start like that to hopefully real people in with that feeling like they feel comfortable and then yeah and then slowly let her misery and pain creep to the surface creep to the surface just in the same way I thought I kept thinking about like if you met somebody that had a very considered front and then eventually you see that front fall away the better you get to know them all the more time you spend with them so that was kind of the the idea behind it but then some bits really really surprised me. Like, I didn't know, I hadn't planned to write. There's that one scene

in Epp 4 with, and she's sat on the log with the bank manager. Yeah, this is the scene that is just, and I should say to the audience, I hope people watch the whole series before hearing us. We will maybe provide light spoilers, but we're not going to give away all of it. We'll flirt with the information. Exactly. This would all be in the trailer anyway, sure. And yeah, so that bit didn't actually, I knew the feeling of needing something to drop in that episode. Yes. Because in some ways it's kind of, it was slightly more sitcoming.

Actually, it starts off with the kind of this, you know, it's a kind of a little road trip movie that turns into a kind of bottle episode with the kind of weird subplot of these men. And I just felt really like I needed to just land something. And it's actually my sister who wrote the music for the whole show. Oh, wow. She'd sent me this track. I'm going a bit off piece here, but she'd sent me this.

this track, which is the gloaming, written by the gloaming, which actually, unfortunately, I don't think is in the Amazon version. But she sent me that track. She was like, this is just a beautiful piece of music. And I listened to it, and I just wrote that scene. And I was like, it's weird, where's this going to go? And then I just kind of squidged it into four, because I was like, this is the drop that it needs. So it actually wasn't, it was a kind of happy accident that that came about. It's interesting that you're referring to it in musical terms, because there is a sense, particularly in that episode, but throughout of rhythm. of pacing that is melodic.

And that episode, prior to the way the episode does end, there's a moment where it could, there's like a pre-ending where a different version of the show might end, where there's a moment of, I don't know, you could call it reconciliation between the sisters, or it's a very beautiful moment.

It doesn't end there. There's a follow-up to that that is a little bit more upsetting. Then there's this last beat that brings it to a new place and a new level. Do you think about your writing that way? Do you think of it as like an unfinished song?

that it does need that last beat, that last lyric to bring it to the place you want to end the episode? Yes. As a whole or just that episode four? In general you're writing, but it sounds like that applied to this episode. Yeah, I really, I feel like catharsis is a really, is a thing that I always trying to aim for. Never necessarily know what it's going to be or the moment that all the strings pull together. But I think the moment that you land on it, the moment that I land on it, I know that it's right. but I think it's important to drive to

drive to a particular place of revelation or a particular place. Not to complete the story or not to end the story, but that moment of feeling like, oh, I now understand what I've been watching on a deeper level suddenly. And that was really the ambition for it. Again, so you keep feeling like you know the show again and again

over and over again and then the rug keeps being pulled. But you keep pulling, that's right, because you keep giving us something. thing, but it's not, um, it's not an easy, it's not everything. It's not easy. You're not, you're not, you know, just, you know, squaring off the, uh, I was going to use a, um, some sort of woodworking metaphor, but I don't understand woodworking. So I was really, I was out there. Some kind of wood corner. Yeah, exactly. Almost as if you had a piece of wood and you sawing, sanded it. This is, this is, this is America's most popular woodworking podcast. Yeah, I love, like,

messy, um, messy woodwork endings. Like it went like, like, there's like maybe one spiky corner and the other one's really smooth out. I think. I think, yeah, I think, like, life never. It's really funny talking about the idea of a second series for Fleabag, because even though in some ways this is sort of perfect, I'm in the stage now and I'm kind of deciding what to do, whether to carry it on or not, because in some ways I've completed the story of her.

Right. But in others, the thing I keep asking myself was, if it was real life, if this really was happening to her, then the next day would just happen. Yes. And what would happen in the next day for her there? And that's actually really challenging. even, you know, whatever happens, whether I decide to do it or not.

But that challenge of, but what if it was real? What if this really did happen? There would have to be a new beginning. But that's also the difference, I think, between film and television, where in many ways, Fleebag ends in a very filmic place where we, it's clear there would be more repercussions. People aren't solved. Things aren't fixed, but we're left in a place where we understand where we've been and where maybe we're going.

But on TV, you could keep going. You could keep going. Until they die. Exactly, which is totally unlike movies because there's no such thing as sequels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stories always end exactly where they're left. I want to circle back to more of the origins, but since we were talking about episode four, the specific conceit is that your character and her sister, Claire, go to basically a silence retreat.

And I thought it was very interesting choice because silence can be terrible for a writer. You know, silence, you kind of always want, there's a, there's a, there's a, a, that I found, and I'm sure other writers feel the same way, you kind of want to be clever, you want to answer the questions you ask. The blankness on the page is sort of the enemy. But silence is so crucial, particularly to film to entertainment and to TV. And there's a real beauty to this episode and to the series where you let things lie. Is that difficult for you as a writer? Do you fight the urge to scribble in everything, or is it more natural? Yes, massively overwrite everything

And then it's about pulling it back I think Also I hate exposition with such a passion I mean I'm sure you've experienced the same thing But like having to explain yourself over and over But knowing that And that means that I end up writing These really really long scenes

When people are subtly dropping in Like what could easily just be done with a line Someone saying I'm unhappy Yes exactly, it could just be done Six minute episodes one scene at the end of Epp 5, which was like a three-page scene at the end between the sisters and the outside to the father's house. Oh, that's what I was about to ask you.

No way. And that scene I arrived on set and I did it with Sean, the actress played with my sister. And as we were reading it out, I was like, oh, no, no, this is terrible. And then I just looked at Sean and she knows the look in my eye. She was like, okay. And she just put the sides down. She was like, what are we going to be doing then? And I basically boiled it down to four things that she absolutely had to say

and the rest of it just fell away. And so I think it's, I do think you do have to write everything down first and then strip it away. But also I think TV is quite, is very dialogue heavy in a way that the film isn't, doesn't have to be, it can be, I mean the idea of visual storytelling is much, it's much more sort of lauded in the film world. And then once it's come up with a joke first of, wouldn't it be funny if they had to go to a silent retreat?

then I thought there was a moment when I thought God wouldn't it be cool if I could do the whole thing in silence but it just sort of started to feel gimmicky and started to feel like when are they going to when am I going to give up

to trying to do this and the idea that's punctuated by people who are being forced to talk and shout but I love the kind of like the idea of it suddenly becoming a bit more filmic and a bit more and the tension that silence can bring between them

Well, that moment, I love that you mentioned that because I have it written down here that one of my favorite moments in the series is in episode five after a very tense celebratory memorial lunch where everything possible goes wrong. And in the midst of that lunch, Claire erupts and something very profound is said, something that has been underlying the entire series and a relationship that we're slowly beginning to understand more about. And there is no response to it. there is silence.

And then when they do reconcile a little bit outside, it's still never really mentioned again. No, it's just so British that as well. Until the reason heat wave, it was British. Yes, exactly. Unless there's a heat wave. Yeah, that I love, I love that, that inability to, and it is British,

but I mean, you know, it's human as well, the embarrassment of raw emotion. And that everything needs to, everyone needs, to be, you know, on top of everything and everyone needs to be dealing with everything in a polite way. And that, I just love throwing a big emotional fireball into that and then seeing everybody squirm, not being able to address it. Yeah. It's particularly good because, you know, traditionally a situation, a sitcom, everything is resolved at the end of the half hour. And I think similarly, drama, the hour-long drama has fallen into a similar rut where everything is

escalated at the end of the hour. Someone dies, then it's go, go, go, go, go, go. Yeah, yeah. There's, things don't really hang in the same way. And you can't make people as uncomfortable in the same way as you can when they're expecting to laugh and then suddenly you punch them in the stomach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's remarkable that you found space in the show for these truly, not just the truly human moments, but for the people to just sort of own them and then live at them.

And you can't, they can't fix each other. Yeah, and they can't, I think so much of it was about people trying to connect with each other and having such a deep inarticulacy about, however. smart they are, it's the, it's the lack of emotional articulacy that they can't, that, that cripples them really. And that, you know, it's just, for me, it's all about the moments when people almost connect or the moments that they do, which is just so sublime. And they don't have to be tidy or perfect or the big speech at the end of the movie,

you know, when they manage to say perfectly in order, everything they've ever felt and will feel about a person that doesn't sort of work like that so much. And sometimes it can be a messy, a messy comment somebody makes, but you know that, the subtext of that comment means that they love that person and it's, you know, it's those little moments and the rest of it can be, you know, jokes or slapstick or whatever you like, or constantly driving between those moments, particularly with the sisters. That was like the love story of the season for me. I just really wanted them to go on a kind of classic kind of rom-com journey. To me, that was the heart of the show and I did want to mention so, and thankfully you

corrected me on how to pronounce her name. So the actress is, Sean Clifford, who plays Claire. It's not CA and Clayford. Please stop calling her that, which I definitely didn't do. Be like me, do it correctly from the beginning. It's really a remarkable performance. How did you meet her? Did you know her before this?

Because you can't fake this kind of relationship. You can because you're professional actors. But on a certain level. Yeah, no, we've known each other for years. We trained together at drama school. and I'd always desperately wanted to play sisters and strangely it was like eight years ago or something I'd written a short play just when I was kind of just finding my way

around writing a little bit I wrote this short play between two sisters and I cast her as one of them and actually a different girl played the kind of slightly scatier sister but that scene ended up being in Fleabag which is in the pilot when they're at the the lecture and they throw their hands

hands up in the air together. And that scene, and so weirdly, you know, she's been playing that part in my heart for like years. And, um, but we just, yeah, having that natural rapport, you get so much for free. And also, she's an astonishing actress and she's mainly done theatre up until now. And it felt she was one of the things in the show that I was like, I'm about to, like, expose this massive secret that Sean Clifford is a genius on TV as well as on the screen. Some of my, I think there are two of my favorite moments in the series are just the two of you waiting at doors for the doors to open. And you can watch the entire history of this relationship and who these people are in your faces. Is there any direction in those moments? There's two particular

that I'm thinking of before the lunch we were talking about and then before the door opens the silence retreat. Yay. And both of you are so completely alive in this moment and your eyes are doing crazy things and it's everything. Is there a direction or this is just your relationship? You know how to you just, you go. It is so instinctive with Sean and I have to say. I have to say like, Harry Bradville, an amazing director, just constantly encouraging us just to do that because he never wanted to cut away from those scenes and wanted to hold them as two shots

because we feel, because the chemistry that is sort of natural between us. And Sean's got a sister and I've got a sister, they're both very close to our sisters, but we also get that relationship totally. And we kind of just slip into that role so easily. And I can just trust her so much. I've never really had to explain the scene

to Shan that often. And also, you know, when you're very close to somebody who's written something, she's known, every little kind of little crappy little thing that I've ever written, she's been there, supported, you know, read or even performed a lot of the time. And so she knows often what I'm trying to get at. And she also just extinctively knows what it's like to have a sister, either be the anal one or have an anal one. Right.

And so a lot of it was just, yeah, it was just us kind of playing at it. It works. At the beginning you said that there was some misdirect in terms, of the character, Fleabag, being sexually voracious. That's not a misdirect. That's accurate. Yes, that's accurate. But I thought one of the ironies of the show is that for someone who seems constantly

on the lookout for a one-night stand or something, not making a connection, there are no non-intimate characters on this show. In the beginning, you might see characters, the guy that she meets on the bus, the presumably one-night stand in the very first scene, the bank manager that you were talking about. these are just comic moments. They all come back. She cannot escape the humanity of these people that she wants to put into these boxes. I thought that was a very interesting way to look at it.

I don't, in the one hand, I was thinking, oh, maybe this comes from theater where you have the actor and so you can have them come back. But obviously, this was a one-woman show, so that wasn't the case. She's haunted by these people. She can't just dismiss them. Yes, exactly. I was so glad you said that because when I was first adapting it and I'd written the pilot before even thinking about really what was going to happen in the rest of the series

and the pilot was sort of my favourite bits from the one-woman show. And most of the bits that she's actually interacting on people in the one-room shows and the bits that she describes rather than the rest of it's just audience address. And so they were kind of the scenes that were lifted and dramatised. And the idea that these characters aren't just disposable, you know, these connections that you make, however flippant or however easily dismissed, that the idea that they do come back one way or another, they do end up defining you who you are,

even in a very small way. And so there was one moment when I was like, I want everyone who appeared in the pilot to come back. But the only one I couldn't quite squeeze in was the drunk girl on the thing. But if we go again, I'm going to find a way to bring her back. Oh, the whole second season's about her.

Yeah, it's just flea back and drunk girl. She put on Craigslist misconnections or something and she's been looking for her desperately the whole time. Yeah. No, it's amazing because these characters, particularly to Dennis, who plays the bank manager, he's just exceptional. These characters who meet in a supposedly professional setting have a very unprofessional interaction, a very unpleasant interaction, somehow are capable of pulling out humanity from the other. Yeah. Like in this, you know, this bustling city and it leads to, you know, there's a lot of laughter in the show, but there's really only one genuine laugh, I think, that comes at the,

very last scene. So we won't spoil that. But that's the only one that feels like it comes from a deeper place, right? It's not the superficial place or the place that's blocking the yeah, blocking all the pain. Someone's actually really surprised her. Yeah, caught her off guard. Yeah, in like a generous, just sweet way. Yeah. Rather than it being kind of, you know, pervy or well, there's the line that other people have written about the show of quoted at length, but but when Fleabag lists the long, there's a laundry list of things that she likes about sex and why she's thinking about it constantly. But isn't, what is it not, she's not, she's not, Doesn't like the feeling of it.

Right, but she doesn't like the feeling. Yeah. So everything but pleasure. And that's the slow revelation of the series is that she seems like a lot of fun. Yes. But she's not having any fun. I know, yeah. I kept thinking the idea, like when I was just kind of milling around how to present her in a kind of TV world,

I kept thinking about the idea of meeting somebody at a party who is like the life and soul, who's like really quick-witted and fun, and everyone's standing around them and they're having a brilliant time. and then they leave and then the person next to you says you know that person's entire family just died yesterday in a car crash and like what that would do to you you know he'd be like and that kind of idea of someone just like brazening it out yeah and making sure that they are still you know witty and funny and on point and in total control of everything in their life and not to worry about them and god forbid you try and expose their vulnerability in any way um yeah so that was the kind of that idea that she's a fun night out it was really important but then we wake up with her and then with her and then with another episode and another episode. The other striking thing about the pilot for people who haven't seen it, although I hope that you do, is that the character breaks the fourth wall and addresses us. And, you know, in other shows and other movies, I have found that, I have found that distracting at times.

But as the series went on, I began to appreciate it more and more, not only because excellent double takes and excellent looks at the camera. Rhythmically, it's terrific. But I don't think I'm the only one who found it. strangely maybe like discomfortingly familiar to be in a very heated emotional moment and feel like you've suddenly wandered into the wrong film the way that she is. So these scenes with Harry who can be a very funny character and the nature, this is her living boyfriend, well, who lives in and moving out.

It's in and out, yeah. And the moment when suddenly she realizes he's not performing, you know, that he's very anguish, he's very hurt, he's very upset. And she just doesn't want to be on that. doesn't want to be on that show, you know, wants to change the channel, basically. And I feel like that's a familiar feeling. So the ability, so in that, realizing that, the fourth wall breaking made a lot of sense to me.

Because I feel like we've all been in that moment where we want to say, like, is this happening? Yeah, give me out. Get me out, but you can. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're trapped. Yeah. I think there was so much about, um, I really, we didn't want it just to be a kind of throwing arch comment.

It's like, it's kind of arch commentary on the show as it's going, as it's going along. Or even just simply hurt in a monologue. Really, really wanted it to be a relationship. ship on its own and that she's actually making you really complicit in her life and is constantly trying to, she's a total control freak. I decided that she's like, I'm letting you in, welcome, my life is fantastic, it's hilarious. Let me show you like the bits that I think are amusing and then she just starts to really regret letting you in.

And then sometimes you're her friend and sometimes she has to, even in the emotional moments, has to turn to you and acknowledge, like, you know, that was, you know, what's that? Like, just look away. Just for secondly. away please. And that idea being witnessed the whole time and having to have a front the whole time. And then at the same time wanting to make the audience feel like they're her wicked little friend. Right, along for the ride. There's a probably outdated stereotype in this country in terms of the dreaded network executive notes and how good ideas get noted to death.

In development, was there any step along the way people trying to make the character, quote, unquote, this is the worst word in the world, but likable. That's the word or, you know, or trying to hammer out the fourth wall breaking or the details that made it crucial to you. No. No, it was a really happy, happy development process. I think because it had been a play before and there was some, there was some trust in that that the play had been a success and that this character had been portrayed in the same way

and had been considered as sort of, you know, unlikable or, you know, sort of, I don't know, edgy or ghastly, as she's been described with the British press. Right. And that her redemption, or there is redemption actually kind of, that it does go to, it does come to an end. Everybody knew that when we first started adapting it. And so there was a trust in the structure and what I was trying to do retrospectively.

Once you get to the end, that feeling the audience goes, okay, now I understand her behavior. I think maybe if that hadn't been the case and it would just been, I want to write this character, this kind of like, acerbic, badass, dismissive character that may, that may have been a different journey, but no, they loved it. The BBC were just like, who picked it up originally,

and I made the pilot with the BBC, and then Amazon came on board later, having seen the pilot for the rest of the series. But basically, they were just like, go hell for leather. Just, just go as dark. Because I was like, I'll promise you, will be funny. I promise you, that's, that's thing. It's a comedy, and that's the one thing I promise.

And they're like, great. And then you can just go. wild with the rest of it keep pushing. And the Amazon guys, well, when they came on board, they really love the darker tones. They loved that it felt like a drama at times. Yeah. So I was really, really encouraged. I really, in the play, I killed the guinea pig.

I strangled the kidney pig to death at the end. There's a moment when I thought that was going to happen. There's a moment when my TV trained brain was like, oh, she's holding it too tightly. I know the correct amount of pressure. A guinea pig thoraxes. It's like paper. I know. And obviously, you go there as well in your mind.

You're like, could she? Do I want to see this? I think I do. That's the sign of a successful show, if you have me wondering, or even that it's possible. Yeah, yeah. Oh, great. Well, maybe I should have done it. They wouldn't let me do it, though.

And I actually think that was correct. No, I think it was correct, but because just the fact that we wonder is enough. Yeah, yeah. What about the wall of plaster cocks? Is that something that BBC wants to know more about? And quick follow-up before you can answer, it is a national broadcasting company. What is the line item in the national budget for the crafting and display? Of walls of cogs?

Well, there was only one wall, I think. Yes, it was the wall of cock. What was the line? I'm just curious, they were encouraging of that as well. They didn't expect their... Maybe they had one already. I haven't kept up. I have to say, they were...

No, actually, there was huge excitement at the idea of a wall of cox. Oh, good. And that, I mean, the design team just... It was Christmas, basically. Yes. And actually we didn't we hadn't had a conversation about how they were going to do it and and they were just sort of like trust us we want to we just we know how to do it and and there was a moment that I kind of hoped they were going to take plastic cast of the entire like crew. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be guess who's, guess who's, guess who's? But human resources got involved. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that sort of thing. It was really funny. It was the kind of however explicit or sexually kind of crude or twisted it got.

but everyone was really behind that, as long as it felt rooted in the fact that she's, it's not totally gratuitous, you know. Like, none of the sex scenes are, you know, are explicit. You don't see anything. You don't actually see any real. Bits. Willies or babies. I don't think I've ever said boobies for more.

No, no one, certainly not on my podcast. No one's ever said it. So we're really breaking, breaking ground. I normally say tits and ass. Feeling strangely PG or something. That's fine. It's fine. It's because the woodwork.

It made it feel much more like wholesome. And because you don't see any of that kind of stuff, I think we bought ourselves a lot of explicit language and that, and the Wall of Cox. I actually don't know who took that home. I had that question too. Basically all my questions that are left are about that. I'm about the Wall of the House.

Yeah. Well, no, I think I'm bringing a very colonial mindset because here, you know, like Republican senators would get mad when federal money went to PBS to pay for like Agatha Christie's. So I just have this vision that the UK must be even more liberal than I realize when someone, like some backbencher is literally like, and what was this line item budget for the BBC this year? Was this, we paid for this woman to have a wall of cox, you know? And then I would love to see question time. I just feel like you.

It's a testament to the backbenchers that that question hasn't been challenged yet. That's kind of and they go, yeah, sure, sure. But the thing they do question is the guinea pig. That's right. The guinea pig lobby is more powerful than the UK. Absolutely. They wouldn't. Yeah, they feel very, they have the microphone.

It's a fascinating country. Really. Whatever you do, don't kill the guinea pig. Just don't kill the guinea pig. Have as many, how many of the cocks on that wall as you want. And, you know, the references to obeying her father's cock and that kind of stuff. Yeah. You know, sent that in.

Yeah. And was going like, this is a ticking bomb until they say this is never going to happen. Right. And they were just, they were like, not even. And David Cameron was like, I have more on my plight. plate this week. Yeah, he had really happy feedback to it. He's probably got his own Wal-O-O-Cocs somewhere. Probably.

Wasn't there a pig involved with his stories? Yes, yes, probably. Okay, that's another show. All the other story. We'll steer away from that story. That's for the less PG political podcast. I have to ask you also about working with the amazing Olivia Coleman who plays your wicked stepmother

on the show, Flea Begg's Wicked Stepmother. So I am a, like many people, I'm a huge fan of her work. I think she is just, she's a force nature. She, and, and, but beyond that, she is generally a force of very anguish, miserable, intense nature. I mean, the things that she does on screen, like Tyrannosaur or Broadchurch especially, she can go there with a, like, a, like, a realness and an intensity that is just, I don't know other actors who can do that. So when she makes her first appearance on the show, and she seems to be sort of a, you know, a hippie, artistic kind of, I was thinking, well,

I clearly know why she did this, because it's a lot of. laugh. Like she can have, she, and she was into it immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was like, this must be such a relief for her not to play a psychologically tormented character. And then two episodes, three episodes later, she becomes this evil monster. This evil antagonist. What, did, did she relish it as much as she appeared to? And then, yeah, I mean, it was kind of tailored totally for her, really, because, um, and you had worked together on Broadchurch.

Yeah, we're really good, good mates, which is useful when you're making a pilot. and you want the most talented actress in the UK. That's right, just pop around for it. And she saw the play originally, and she said, she loved the play. And she was like, if you ever want to do me to do anything, very sweetly, she was like, just let me know because you never know. And I'd written the pilot and the pilot was missing something. I hadn't realized at that point that it was missing Olivia Coleman. Most shows without Olivia Coleman, the thing that is missing.

I think all shows miss Olivia Coleman. Yes, exactly. And when she said that, and I knew that she was saying it in earnest, and at this point, it was just, a pilot. It was, you know, it would have been half a day filming for her and, and we had no idea what the future of it would be like. I said, I'm, I'm calling you on that, on that conversation that we had. Yeah. And the promise was that I really wanted to see her play somebody evil. I just, I just love that idea. And because she has such goodness and she radiates kindness and goodness, I just, yeah, we were both relishing so much the idea that this, this, this magician of, um, um,

meanness. It's just such a glorious thing to see her do. And just because she knew, you know, and I was like, you just have to see that this woman is, she's so good at being good and being nice, that no one else can see it. No one can see. But her in Fleabag, they see each other. And they kind of, and that was just so fun. It was so fun watching her.

It also played into my ongoing perception of British TV is just this like wonderful clubhouse where everyone is available all the time to just pop into each other's shows. and you've worked inside this. This is the world that you come from. How accurate is this? Or is it purely because you sign up for a show, you're not locked into seven seasons? It's just purely attributed to production

because I just, you know, one of the joys of watching British TV shows is, oh, that guy's in this one too. And he was the star of that one, but he's, you know, he's an assistant. He's like, he's basically the secretary in this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it does seem, for me, this is the,

colonial mindset again, it seems very theatrical, not in terms of the performance, but in terms of the, we all have to pitch in and put on the show, and I'll drop by your show and you can come by mine. Yeah. Wow, I've thought about it like that, but it does feel like that actually. And I think possibly because a lot of the actors have come up through theatre, and if you've done 10 years in theatre, you know every actor. So you've got... It's a smaller world. It's a smaller world. I imagine it's more like sort of New York in that way than it's here. But also people are just, you know, there is a certain level of actors. that is just up for stuff there.

And, like, Hugh Dennis is a perfect example, like, for doing Fleabag. Again, it was just a tiny little comedy feed pilot. He's a really well-known name. He does loads of panel shows. He's, um, did a show when he played a dad in something for like seasons, like, multiple seasons. And he was just a kind of household name, but he was very, very comedy. And, uh, and when he came up as a name of the cast and director was like, you know, what about him for this?

We were like, you know, he'd never do it. He'd never do it. But when we called him, he was, and, uh, and when we called him. I had to have a conversation with him. And he was like, you know, on the phone, he was like, I like it. I like it. We like, really like the script, it's fine. He was like, but you know, you just never know, do you?

And it was that attitude. Yeah. I was like, yes, Hugh. He just never know. And I promised him, I was like, this guy comes back. He's that, you know, in playing the trick with him of like, he thinks somebody's insignificant at the beginning and then they become the most significant. A little 30 spoiler.

But they become a very significant person to hurt the very end. And he was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. trying to sell it to him. He was like, but no, whatever, I like it. It's fun. And when we were shooting it, it did have that sense of people just pulling together and going, you never know. And it did feel like a small, cozy world when I were doing that. Let's take a quick break before we get into talking about Peak TV or Peak VTV for a word from our sponsors. All right, we know it's a little rude to interrupt, but while we have your ear, let's have a brief conversation about manners. As the British like to say, manners maketh man. So it.

it's no wonder the Jaguar's first ever compact sports sedan, the Jaguar XE, and their first ever performance SUV, the Jaguar F-Pace, are well-mannered. They both put you at ease the moment you enter, remain composed in almost any situation, and know when to make themselves heard. For the full Jaguar Guide to Manners, please visit jaguarUSA.com. Thank you. Jaguar, the art of performance. I was going to ask if this idea that exists here at the moment exists in the UK television, television scene as well, which is this idea that we're sort of at peak TV, that there's just so

many things to watch and so many things to start exploding. It might. Well, there's just there's so many things to watch and there's so many shows being made. And then, of course, I remembered that you've made two shows this year, which is truly remarkable. And I don't quite understand it. So instead of asking you that, I think I need to ask you how you, because your other series crashing is on Netflix now for people in this country who want to see it. And it's very funny.

And it's very different than this. And they both came out in 2016. And these are completely unique. They're separate series. You're in both of them. You wrote both of them. Yes. Explain that to me.

I don't. It's all a bit of a blur, to be honest. It all came about really because... It's not Peak TV, it's Peak Phoebe. It's Peak TV. I'm just going to stop now before we get sick of it. So I had written a bunch of short plays and a production company, big talk who ended up making crashing had come to see that.

They liked that. They were like, let's find something like write a pilot. I wrote the pilot for that and it got put the bottom of a pile at Channel 4, Channel 4's office, as just one of the millions of scripts they've got to read. But then the main kind of turning point was Fleabag at Edinburgh Festival. The play

was a kind of hit there. And then suddenly, you know, my script was just drawn out from... Moved up on a pile. Yeah, it was like, suddenly, you know, let's read what she sent in before. And so at the same time that the BBC were after fleab and they were like let's make a pilot it's the exact same time that they were moving forward

with it with the channel 4 which was weird because I'd kind of moved into a very different place like writing place, just mental space and I'd write that first pilot book crashing like years before like in my early like 20s and and so I kind of had to and then so they commissioned it first and then it was just like

really quickly knowing that fleabag bag was going to come was going to happen later but having to do do justice to my 22 year old so with this I was like, got to tell the story of these characters. And so, yeah,

so I basically just locked, was just locked in a room, chained to a desk by two different production companies. And just wrote, wrote until I, until I, like, almost ate my own hands

just, because I was so hungry. It was just like a cop. Yeah, it doesn't really mean it when I say it's blurry. It was amazing. It was a baptism of, of,

like, happy fire. Happy fire is a beautiful, idea. Well, because that is a transition for, I think, any writer to go from doing things on your own time for yourself and, you know, having fun. Oh, maybe this is a one-woman show or maybe this is a feature spec or whatever. And then suddenly it's production. And then suddenly it's production. And then all the things that you did on your own schedule now you're doing on someone else's, and it's supposed to be as good or better. Yeah, and I'm a real last-minute person. Like, I will spend a lot I can't believe that. Or is that evidence the fact that both shows were 2016 shows? Yeah, probably.

It was like that was clearly like the year. Yeah. That was my kind of deadline year. Yeah, I kind of, I find it so painful sitting down with like knowing I've got loads of time. Yeah. And actually the play came about because the producer of my theatre company, Francesca, heard that somebody liked the 10 minute short version of it that I did at this kind of stand-up storytelling unit. She heard somebody say, oh, that was good.

Someone should take that to Edinburgh. And she just was like, yeah, okay, I'm going to find a space in Edinburgh. I found a space and just emailed me saying, you've got six weeks to write, flea bag before opening night. That's the ideal situation. Because if you'd been given 12, you would have used six anyway, or if you've been given 18, it would have been the same. I just don't know what, I'd have no idea.

What would have, I guess, yeah, I would always have written it in a matter of weeks, always. There's no way I'm ever going to be prepared. And the same thing with crashing. They were like, commissioned it, and I was very excited. And then I just kind of panicked for like 70% of the time. Sure. And so I'm sure you're nodding like you're the same.

I think all right it is that the only thing we all can bond over is panic. Yes, I think so, and it's so productive. But I do have a couple of really irritating, really irritatingly brilliant organized writer friends. Oh, I thought you were going to say tips, and I was so excited. Oh, God, no, I've got nothing to give. But, yeah, who like get off on handing it in a day early. I mean, that to me is insane.

It's doing other writers to disservice. Yes, I agree. Well, this is the thing that I struggle with. It's one thing to always put everything off and do everything to the last minute and feel miserable and have the misery be the process and understand. But it's another thing to be at peace with that. And I, you know, been writing things professionally for quite some time. I'm not at peace with the problem.

I feel like the people who are okay with it are the real success stories. But every time, to be like, really? Every time I'm going to go through this? I know. That's what I don't get. Why? And I've got a writer who says that he says, every now and again, he just takes two weeks and he just goes to the Cotswolds or something really beautiful in the UK

and he just watches movies and reads, books and he knows that that's how he recharges. I thought you were going to say right. And I was like, what a church. Ugh. And he says, but these things he goes for long walks and stuff. And I think, and I was like, gosh, that sounds just so delightful. Yeah.

And he said, then he recharges and he gets rid. Then he comes back and then he'll just write for a week and everything will come out. And that two weeks of watching TV and reading and going and walks will be still be the same level of panic. Yes. I mean, I cannot relax. No, I couldn't. He's right.

I mean, everything that I've heard and everything that. that I've even almost grazed with the fingers I reached for it suggests that that's true, that they're recharging. You're doing, you're recharging your battery. You have to remember that you're a creative person and engage with creativity and art and being in a calm place. But he can do that.

Yeah, to everyone else, it looks like you're on holiday. But if you ever met a writer, like I've met a couple writers, I have one writer friend who likes writing. That is, that's very unnerving. It's awful. Yes. He's like, oh, it's fun. Which part?

Perhaps they're a psychopath. think that's plausible. I think everyone likes having written. There's no feeling better in the world than having written. Yeah. Yeah. God, that's so true. But also that weird moment when you feel like when you're actually writing and something pops out and you go, oh, and something else takes over slightly. Like when I was writing the play, and obviously Boo is, um, Boo's dead. The character's dead in the show. But when I was writing, I had no idea that was going to happen. I was writing, I was writing, I was written this weird storyline about there was seven guinea pigs before there was one guinea pig. I killed off six guinea pigs. It was like seven guinea pigs. And she had like,

Oh God, there was just so many weird arms to this draft. And then when I was writing it, I just suddenly sort of freewheeling and wrote that Boo had died in this weird accident. And then I was like, ooh, I was like, this is good, this is good. And you do feel like something else is taking over, but I knew, I was like, now that is good. And when you get that little gem,

and you just kind of want to hold it in your hand, like this little thing. It makes it all worth it. Good, it's good, and you can have weeks and weeks of, you know, hating everything. But then you find that little moment. But then you wish that you could. could have access to that all the time if it's there. Maybe it's the Cotswolds. Maybe it is the Cotswolds. That sounds quite good. That sounds quite good. Or like speed. I know some people that write on speed. In the Cotswolds, that would be very discordant. So it's one of the other. So it's massive amphetamines

or bucolic countryside and there's no middle ground. God, writing is the worst. I shouldn't keep you too much longer, but I did want to ask because we were talking about it before we started. You've been here in L.A. doing promotional rounds and going to these bizarre parties. How is this experience for you? Because I feel like you've done the most important thing. You've made this work. You've controlled this work and you've made it and it's just absolutely exceptional.

It's a great series. And then you come to this place, which I've only been here three weeks, but in my limited experience is really a place of what's next? What else have you got? What else can you do? What's next? And how do you feel about that? Not even how do you answer that, but how do you make sure that you can protect what

already done and what you might want to do without having falling prey to the um the parties that have the free mini tequila bottles which which are great let's be honest we just as dressed as peasant girls handing out tequila bottles which is a thing it is a thing it happened um on one level it's so i find it like oxygenating because the moment you've finished something like you say the best feeling is you finished it you've made it and people like it and there is no better a more validating feeling than that, obviously. And then the idea of like, oh, I can also park that now.

And that kind of, like, hellish paradise of writing that whole show is, like, can sort of just sit over there for a bit and then you start thinking about other things. And I love that how that opens your mind up. But at the same time, it's that same thing of not, of like, it being a blur and not knowing how you did it. And then everyone's like, my God, you're really good at writing.

Do it again. Do it again. Can you do it again away now, please? and then all that self-doubt creeps in a little bit. I feel like what I need to do is commit fully to the Carousel of Parties while in L.A. I agree. Commit 2,000 percent and then probably go back to the Cotsville.

Yeah, I was going to say. And write a play, probably, like knowing where you started. And I'm sure every agent that you've met with in Hollywood is so thrilled that you just said the P-word. because they love nothing more than the theatre. Our most talented people. Let's have them. Or you could do poetry. I think they'd be equally enthused.

Or maybe a long magazine article. I want to write a haiku in the next six months. I wanted to tell the real subtext of my soul. But you're committed. That's what matters. Committed. I mean, I know that's really what I should do. But like you say, like TV is so so exciting at the moment.

And people are giving you longer and longer and longer leads. They're like saying, just go and we'll leave you alone. And do the whole thing before you do it. Yeah, it's really like genuinely experimental, I think, now in a way that theater has been forever. Right. And that you can just do whatever you want. You can follow your nose in a way that you haven't really been able to do with TV before. It's been quite controlled.

And so, I don't know, kind of want to do it all and hide away at the same time. That's a good feeling to chase. Now that I've set up a very healthy binary where the executives and the agents are the other demanding more from you and I'm not on their side, what is next for you? But you mentioned that the idea of a second series is out there, but you don't, you have to commit. Yeah, it's sort of percolating. I'm feeling like I really desperately, desperately, desperate, desperate. I love this character so much. I love the idea of coming up with the perfect new story for her, new chapter.

But to me, it would have to be completely different because the flashbacks and the use of kind of that rising tension of actually we don't, she's not giving us the full truth or who she really is. I know that's what was kind of making it special for me. And it, the, the, that's still quite jet-like, the catharsist. It's, if you call it the mini-bubles of tequila, that's, that's jet-lacked, sure. No, that's fine. Yeah, jet-lacked tequila makes me wrap catharsis. I, yeah, if I can find a new, like a new opening for her, so to speak.

Yeah. That would be ideal. But I'm also not, I'm also not. also, yeah, taking into consideration that it might have been a completed story. And actually, that's kind of exciting as well to ask that question. Like, maybe I should just leave it. It's remarkable that they would let you do that. I mean, because it's not an American TV thing where there's an expectation of an option or a second season. Yeah. Actually, I don't actually know if there is. I may be saying this and actually I'm completely over. Yeah, there's actually someone

from Amazon at the door banging. Right to jail. Yeah, I'd love to. And actually the challenge, like, you know, said at the beginning, like the idea that she still has to wake up the next day, she still has to go on. And that they have, you know, she would have new stories in real life. And it's a challenge worthy of having a go out, I think. Isn't it funny the way we can compartmentalize things and talk about challenges like they're great when you're not actually sitting in front of a laptop? Because the way you said it was very inspiring.

It's very exciting. And it's true. You were being very honest, I believe. It's really accurate. But then... Yeah. But it's just the actual process of it. My God, it's so painful.

But then I have started now. I've always got a draft email up on my Gmail of like ideas. I thought you think to my manager saying I quit. You always keep the draft open. I'm saying, I just really want to be a ballet dancer. Yeah. And I had a draft email which was like Fleabag series two for ages and it was just empty, like no ideas. And over the last couple of weeks, having taken some space away from it, apart from all the press stuff.

But I have started filling it up a bit, which is exciting because that's just the, that's just the, that's just. the wall that you throw the shit at and there's little tiny little bits of in the draft email draft don't accidentally send it no i know it's like it's only addressed to me oh good that would be worse case do you not do that you don't have a like a list or notes or i do but i don't put it in an email because i feel like that's just asking for it where do you keep it like i use the um i'll either use the notes app or i have like a word doc that has a name that's basically like you know that's basically an insult to me you know that's like you're terrible at this or like or recently i put one because I'm supposed to be writing a book that says, I am writing a book.

My editor listens. That says, I love TV. Very good. Because it's just, you want to get in the right mindset. Yes, that's very, very good. And I call it that document and I say, what was I thinking when I wrote these things? But then it moves to the better document. Then you take it away and you edit.

I think you want to be able to access it wherever you are. Yeah. No. God, no, because I can be like I've escaped right now. I can't access it now, so I couldn't possibly work. That is wise. Maybe I'm haunting myself with my own bad ideas. That's why you have two TV shows on this year.

despite your protestations. Because I carry my list around with me. Like a bald and chain of art. Horrible ideas. Well, they're not horrible. I'll let you go on that. Because clearly you have a lot of work to do. Yeah.

No, no pressure. Phoebe Wallabridge, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. Fleabag is on Amazon streaming right now, and you should watch it.