The Watch - Ep. 9: 'The Andy Greenwald Podcast' With Damon Lindelof

Episode Date: December 23, 2015

Writer and producer Damon Lindelof joins Andy Greenwald to discuss the future of 'The Leftovers,' the legacy of 'Lost,' and how to survive a troll attack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, Andy Greenwald here. Channel 33 is brought to you by Seat Geek. That's our presenting sponsor, and I think hands down my favorite way to buy and sell tickets to all the sporting events I go to, but other things like concerts and just live events. And I've always been all about live events. You can use the Seatgeek mobile app to quickly and easily buy tickets. Just two taps and you got your tickets straight to your phone. You can't make it to the event. Seek Now lets you transfer tickets to your friends. You can even post your tickets for sale.

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This is my podcast. Now exclusively part of the Bill Simmons Podcast Network and can be found only in the Channel 33 podcast feed in case you didn't know this. And I kind of feel like you do by now. You can subscribe to Channel 33 on iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher, maybe some other apps I don't even know about yet, but please do subscribe. I want to thank all you guys for listening, and I also want to thank once again

the amazing band Churches for giving me my dope theme song. Still kind of can't believe I have that. Churches with a V, new album, every open eye out now on Glass Note Records. Big show today, big conversation. Someone I've been hoping to talk to for a long time, a guy you probably know as the showrunner, co-show runner of the great ABC drama Lost. And we've been talking about him a lot on the watch pod, Chris Ryan and I, because he is also the guy responsible for HBO's The Leftovers,

a show that I was all the way out on in season one and came all the way back in on in the recently completed season two. Damon has been a fascinating figure because not only is he such a prominent and excellent TV writer, but he's also been weirdly generous about my criticism towards his shows. So the chance to talk to him about all that in person, plus the leftover's recent renewal for a final third season, all on the docket.

Apparently he told me, before we sat down, not only was everything on the table, the table had no edges. There is no spoon. So let's get into it. My conversation with Damon Lindelof. Have you pitched Fear of the Leftovers where you can do the prequel? And you can really just, because I guess that show is built on the idea that, like, instead of showing the dead, ruined world, we're just going to watch it die. Right.

So you could just set an entire show. Prior to the departure? Yeah. Well, like October 12th and just set it in, like, ICU's. Nice. And you just, it's just dead. Right. Just not stopped death.

We could do webisodes on a plane knowing that there's a 2% chance that one of the people in the cockpit would disappear. But then they don't. No, they don't because you're not a monster and you've done the plane thing. Right. And then all that happens on the plane is just like one dude and coach is gone. And nobody knows. No, not just one dude. Like the dude who was taking up too much space, the guy who was stealing both armrests and the people next to them are just relieved.

Right. They're like, yeah. This worked out for us. This is good for us. See? I don't think he's coming back. Have you thought about all the IP possibilities here? The expanded leftovers verse?

The Perotiverse. I think the Langaleers, though, that's the whole premise of that, right? Like that Stephen King, you know, it was just about people, like, they go through a wormhole. That's right. Something in France and pinches. So it's already in the pantheon. Excellent. You are Mariner.

I'm doing, I'm marining. I'm sitting here with Damon Lindelof. Thank you for doing this with me. So good to be here to use Marin and the Jaron. I know. Well, I'm experimenting with it. I thought it was going well. It works. Everyone knows what you mean when you say marining. We're marining and, you know, all those ideas we just had. They're yours. This is, this is in your office. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. You are under no obligation to have done so because you are officially finished your press obligations, right? This is as much as one has press obligations. Well, yeah. The season is over. Yes, we're in the, we're in the, in the, in the downtime. This is the downtime for you. So you have time to do it. This is. This is. something I've been looking forward to for quite some time. Oh, thank you. Quite some time. Uh-oh. Well, are we finally going to, we're going to settle this. We're going to have it out. It's just a, it's just a chapter in what I hope is a very long and, um, and Salieri-Modzart-esque relationship.

That's terrific. It ends with me, much like F. Murray, Abraham. Starring on Homeland. Yeah, exactly. Starring on Homeland. All of it will be recorded as well. Good, good. With handheld mics. Yes. We have a lot to cover. I'm eager to talk about it. But I do want to begin I feel like we have to be newsy at the beginning. And we're speaking... Should I put on my cap? Not the musical muses.

No, this isn't video. There's no... They probably think you have it on. I'll just put it on anyway. Let's talk about the leftovers. We got the renewal for season three. Yes. The final season.

Yes. In my limited experience with the inner workings of these things, I feel like I've learned that sometimes these decisions are made well in advance of the public finding out about them. But it did seem, through your public... comments that this really was not set in stone relatively recently. Very, yeah. Can you tell me about that process and that timeline?

Because between the time when you actually, you know, signed sealed and delivered, finished posts on the finale to when this decision was made, what was that process? We finished posting the finale and there's an ongoing constant conversation with HBO on any number of issues, both creative and pragmatic. And then they watched the cut of the finale and they gave notes. And I think that there was, you know, they've been conveying as the entire season has kind of unfolded, that they were really happy with the creative. And then when the show started airing.

So you were finished with all of it before it started airing. Right. I don't know. We were probably, I think, like, episode five was probably about to air right after they saw the finale. Right. So everybody sort of had a sense of what the numbers were and that the numbers were low, you know. That's a very politic way of saying like disappointing or, you know, or frightening or like this is not the, you know, this is not the outcome that everyone was desired. I think soft is the most polite word. Soft numbers. Yeah, soft numbers. That's right. I like it.

It's, you know, that's exactly right. And I kind of feel like at the time that that was happening, I was obviously having huge Netflix envy because the idea of kind of like being in a scenario where you, aside from putting the entire show out there at one time and being able to binge it, which is another conversation entirely, the idea of like being a showrunner and not knowing how many people, you're watch your show like what is that you know like you're unburdened yeah um by it's sort of like you could say to me that 200,000 people watch transparent or 20 million people watch transparent and that's really going to change the way that I do my job like yeah it's going to get in your head

and but if you just take it off the table so but when you hear that you have lost um you know over 60% of your audience season to season the only thing that you can um think is why like what happened and you know what did i do to make that happen and what's the spin and HBO was very cool about it like they were like hey look you you know you had true blood as a lead in last season and people binge stuff now more and we premiered in the fall and there's just a lot of noise out there on other shows and um and so like you know don't worry about the numbers and so uh but once you know what the that the numbers are soft you worry about the numbers but also HBO's relationship to the numbers is always a little perplexing to me because they matter and they share them now.

But they almost screwed themselves because they only, I feel like they only started sharing them once they had crazy numbers for the Sopranos and Game of Thrones. Sure. And then once you let that out, you know, so much of their business model depends on chatter, you know, and on prestige and awards, but also good buzz, good vibes. I mean, these and building a strong content library. So those do factor in, right?

They probably made that clear to you. And if you're on a continuing series, the ratings factor in, much more significantly than like, I have no sense, even as a consumer of media, how many people watch Show Me Hero or Olive Kitteridge, you know, like, who cares? Like, they're done. So it's not like you're going to pick up, like,

you know, more show me a hero. Like, you like that hero, I've got more hero to show you. Show me heroes. Yeah, exactly. And that Asker Isaac is now ascendant. Like, people will have heard of that young man. That's right. So we got to, you know,

if you liked him in Star Wars, wait a way do you see what he has in store for City Hall. Wait a suicidal small town mayor. Absolutely. So, you know, there's stuff that they care about and there's stuff that they don't care about.

And obviously, I think that it is true that they care most about, like, is the show good? Like, and then on top of that, in terms of their weighing the future of the show, has it penetrated the zeitgeist? And is it kind of like, is it upping the brand, you know, in general is like, are we proud to have this on our air? And I think, you've talked openly. on the pot about like it was kind of a surprise that they wanted to do a second season just given you know like I think that that was a that was a fair enough statement for a number of reasons

and it wasn't like we were lighting the world on fire ratings wise or showing even like ratings growth but they they they reached out to me about halfway through season one you know while we were still kind of even writing the last three episodes we want to do more Like, and at that time, I was like, I don't know if I want to do more. Like, you know, we're, we've just basically come out of the other side of complete another chaos. And I'm starting to feel like the show may be starting to work, but I can't put that on my plate right now. So let's wait. And then after we finished the finale, then I was like, okay, I actually do want to do more.

And they were like, great. But this time around, there was no communication. there was like, it was like, there was an intention of, we love the show, but let's all just wait and see what happens. And so when I gave,

when I did a lot of press sort of around the finale time, even some, you know, in advance of the finale, my original plan was like not to talk at all until the finale had aired, but I was kind of feeling like

if I don't talk, that may actually jeopardize the future of the show. I was wondering about that. I want their, to be clickbait out there. Like I want the show to make noise. Yeah. And I don't want to be precious.

I think that hopefully I can still not unpack like the, you know, the, the mysteries of the show or the process. But at the same time, I kind of feel like I have control over my own destiny. So I started saying yes a lot more. And as I said to Sepinwal, like, you know, he interviewed me after he had seen the finale. Yeah. Which is like maybe four days or five days. before it aired and I was like I am literally fighting for the life of the show right now.

So like H and that wasn't HBO. It wasn't me going and saying like I'll do anything for this show, but we were in this period of just kind of like not knowing. And whatever needed to happen for them. So the finale aired and the response, you know, to the season was positive. And then, you know, the critical response. and the zeitgeist response was, was positive.

And I think that, you know, Mike Lombardo and Michael Ellenberg were wanting to pick up the show. And so whatever needed to happen, it happened. And then they called me basically the middle of last week and said, we want more.

You know, we're picking you up. So you didn't know what that call was? I didn't. You're on vacation or you're away from your office here. I was in New York. My mom was moving from it. Hack and Sack to Fort Lee. So you were just getting in touch with your glamorous Hollywood side.

Glamorous moving my mom and like using it as an excuse to see Hamilton. Yeah. Because if you haven't seen Hamilton, you're worthless. Going next month. Have you seen it? Have tickets. Oh, good. So you're not worthless.

This almost ended badly and early. If you didn't have, if you can't produce your Hamilton tickets. Yeah. I can't really respect anything that you say. Fair enough. But thank God we dodge that both. I'm going to give you many opportunities to not respect me as we continue. So when your phone rang, you know, and you got this call from them, did you have like the butterflies of someone just starting out?

I mean, you really didn't know which way this call was going to go. Well, you know, it's a relatively mundane and uninteresting story. But what happened was I was in a like a meeting with a family friend about something fairly serious. And I had my phone off. And then when I turned it back on, I had missed two calls from my, um, my. Lombardo's office and my and my agents and so I was just like the my brain extrapolated the you know the wishful thinking um construct and so I I called my agents back first and was like you know what's going on and they're like at HBO

wants to wants to pick up the show oh good so so it wasn't at that point though so they picked it up without you saying it was going to be the last season that came later or had you pitched something to them that allowed them to make the decision that they did. Well, when I called Mike back, he was like, we want to pick you up and I said, you know, this is not just lip service. Like I'm feeling such immense gratitude. And so all I want to say is like, yes and thank you and that's the end of the call. But I do want to also say something else, which is sort of in that period, in between the finale airing and that call, in addition to just sort of like taking stock on where my life was and what,

what we had achieved as just as writers and producers on the second season of the show. But I have like my, what people say about the show is now carefully curated for me. Like, you know, to the degree where it's sort of like, you know, Mr. President, like they're saying such wonderful things about you. Yeah. Like, because they're so, there's a lot of stuff out there that makes me want to just crawl into my show. And so like, so even, even the really. good things that were being said and written about the show and were being sent to me.

There seemed to be a rising populist sentiment that people were okay with the show being over. There were a couple of stories written to that effect. And so I was sort of like, how do I sort of, I don't disagree with that. Like, and truth be told, there's a part of me that's sort of like this, you've actually kind of like undone the legacy right now. If you walk away right now, like there's no risk of being. bad ending guy like people are now giving it to you they're saying like you there are still some bad endings but this you have now you have now proven that you are capable of a good

ending and that made me feel like well why would i why would i want to do that take the win no i can't take the win like now i i have to jeopardize the win or i'm not me like i have to you know i have to go back for more i have to this is uh this is for for your pal chris ryan i have to go play for the wizards do you understand do you get that one of course you know Of course. Oh, good. Okay. So, like, you know, now starting for the Wizards, coach and power forward, Damon Lindeloff, literally playing for the Wizards. So, but all joking aside, and that's not, that, that wasn't joking. That was all part of my thinking. The other part of it was, if that's the sentiment, we're closer to the ending than we are to the beginning. Right. Like, if we now say the leftovers is just going to continue like any other. show continues versus no let's let's let's let's say that we're going to do one more season because again as a consumer of all this stuff when they did it on the newsroom yeah i was kind of like cool like i wasn't i wanted a little more newsroom you know and and i was able to watch the third season

with some kind of sense of like yeah by time we got to everybody playing guitar and singing you know i was like we differ on this one yeah all right fair enough but uh um fair enough i was ready for a little more newsroom and I kind of felt like here's the great thing you know um and I'll just name check Margaret Lyons because I don't want to pretend like I don't know your names when everybody knows that I do and you guys have your wall and I have mine too um I'll just say to Margaret Lyons like you don't have to watch the third season like and like maybe that and that's okay like that's why some people take one Advil instead of two like depending on how intense their headache is so but I but I feel like one.

more felt like right to me. And there were a couple of compelling story threads, character ideas that I felt like I wanted to do. And so I called Parada right before I called Mike Lombardo back and essentially said they're going to pick up the show, but I think I'm going to push for just one more season. What are your feelings on that? And he was like, that sounds really good to me. He looked at his backyard to the construction of his poolhouse and he's like can we do four yeah can we he was like let me just take off my monocle and uh and think about this for a moment yeah and then i heard the shuffling of what sounded like stacks of cash well he's got that novel money oh my god that big that big league that book breed novel money and so he was down and then and so in that very call i said to mike lombardo

i i would love it if we if in the pickup announcement we also said that it was the last season Because if we just pick it up and then like a month from now, we say it's the last season, people are going to think something went wrong in the interim. It'll be like, well, they picked it up. Then Lindelof came in and told them what it was going to be. And then they were like, well, we can't unpick it up. Although that happens now. That does happen. It happens not just at HBO, but like the unpick up is all the kids are doing it.

So, and Mike, to his credit, was like, great. We'll draft a press release and they sent it over a couple hours later. and then that was that. Well, obviously we have to talk about the fact that, you know, I think the leap from one to two was one of the most remarkable things I've ever seen on TV. It was totally unique, and I also have to say, I greatly appreciate your generosity towards me,

considering that, you know, we're here in this room. I was not a fan of the first season. You knew that, and you've still been very nice to me, which I appreciate. that's, I would imagine that's not, like if someone is, we were joking about this before, if someone is even vaguely critical of me, I probably will hate them. Right. It is hard to get past that.

This is a very personal show. Right. And you seem to be able to hear, I hope, I mean, not just in my criticism, but in other people, you took, you listened to something. Sure. Not to, and that is in no way suggesting that we had an important role in what happened in season two. It's just that I was, before we even talk about that. transformation, I was very impressed that you were able to keep level-headed about it in a way.

Well, first off, like, I've heard you say it when I'm driving my car. And it's very odd to be sitting across from you right now because, you know, we've never physically inhabited the same space before, but this incredible, very odd intimacy exists, at least in my brain, the way that, like, you know, would, you know, is very strange for a stranger, but that, you know, I've been listening to you and reading your writing for quite some time and many of your peers as well. And so it's hard for me to experience you as actual human beings because you are just your writing. And so my first awareness of you, I think you were talking about loss. That's how you got on my radar. And my feeling was that you were always

very fair. That was like, in addition to, it'll just be completely transparent right now. If I say, like, you're a great writer and I think that you're really smart and you love this stuff and you speak about it in an immensely articulate way where you understand the process. Putting all that aside, I feel like, putting that aside, I feel like you're fair, like you and Chris are fair. And if critics are fair, I really listen to what they have to say because I'd be an idiot not to. I'm not really writing the show for for any other reason than I'm I'm inspired or compelled to write it. I don't write it for myself. I don't write it for the audience.

It's just it's an intangible. That said, I have this amazing resource for free. Yeah. Which is that my work, people are telling me how to do it better. Yeah. And if they're smart, like they're doing it for free. And so I kind of feel like it's my, you know, I'd be a fool to not listen to really smart people saying, here's where you went wrong. Now, I, I can take issue with them and I can disagree.

And although I said this partially ingest to Seppenwall, or at least it was presented that way, when he interviewed me at the beginning of the season, yes, in the writer's room of the leftovers, we actively would say, we are doing this just to piss off Greenwald. Because at that point, it wasn't like we were trolling you. It was just like I was of the mindset that there was nothing we could do to get you. And so, like, although your approval is deeply meaningful to me in the same way that a child is basically like, F you, dad. You know, like, you know, so we're going to do this. And I will say, like, of all the wonderful things that you've said about the show in second season,

the thing that I'm most pleased about is that you did. hate the cave woman sequence because totally because if you did like it like then it defeated the purpose and trolling you in the first place like so i'm sort of like so you succeeded twice well then it would have been kind of like did i did i really want want him to like that no like it was sort of like you know it and and and truth be told and and and i know that you know patrick somerville who uh so patrick and and and nick hues are the writers who are also listened to you and chris religiously and read you guys and we're huge am i even allowed to say the name of the previous site you certainly can't we have to pour out a little of water here but yeah i say grantland and people correct me

and i say no no it's it's grandland yeah you're fine uh but like when you correct someone's pronunciation they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna do with this the spanish prime minister on you i'm coining that phrase that's right it only works today that's hot off the press yeah yeah that that's that's um so anyway um so we were openly talking about um you know what you guys said about the show last year, and we were talking about the cavewoman sequence and all that stuff. And there were multiple times from like, from the conception to the writing to the watching the day.

You can only imagine what watching those dais was like, you know. For the cavewoman sequence. Oh, yeah. And you're just like, what are we doing? I mean, Mimi did a beautiful, I mean, she transcended it obviously. And this actress that we cast there, Tomko was unbelievable. But still, you watch those.

when you're watching raw dailies, you're just like, what is this? And how is HBO even letting us do this? And this was a horrible mistake. And even in the editing room, like multiple, multiple times, we would invoke your name, which is, well, at least Greenwald will hate it.

And you did not disappoint. And so I say, thank you, sir. I'm so honored. First of all, I truly am touched that I was present in the editing room for all that. But here's what I've been thinking about a lot in the second season, which is my reaction to the first season was visceral.

You know, I didn't, I didn't think it was so-so. I didn't dislike it. I actively hated some, the experience sometimes of watching your show. And as someone, let's call him, for the purposes of hypothetical, let's call him my therapist. Has talked often about how, you know, hatred is really to the flip side of love and anger is as well because it binds you to another person. So clearly there was something that you were playing with that I found deeply unsettling. and I felt almost violated by some of the things in that first season. It was a messy, uncomfortable world that you were creating.

Right. And so that was, you know, and that was how I approached the second season. I appreciated the opening after you told me that it was directed at me. Didn't like it. But then as the first few episodes went on, I mean, I will go back now and I've checked out the second season premiere again. And all the things that I now have come to really admire about the show are there. But as I was watching them to review,

I felt this feeling where I didn't know what I felt, you know, which is not, which is, again, that's so relatively unique if your job is to have an opinion about things. I felt so discomfited by it. And that in and of itself is a unique thing on television. And that's what kept me watching because if you're tapping into that kind of react, that feeling, that's not, that's not normal. That's not a bad show you can ignore. It's, it's very interesting that you're, that you're couching this all in that specific construct. So let's say that there's an individual who's my therapist. And let's just say that that's a woman.

It's a little on the nose, but there's two. So that we, mine is a woman so that we can differentiate between our therapist. This theoretical individual, let's say that, like, I've been in an intense amount of therapy. And one of my sort of go-toes is, like, why do people hate me? Yeah. Like, it is one thing to just experience, to just be like, you have apathy for. It's sort of like, you know, this idea, like, what is it about, you know, what I, what I've done that generates like that kind of language because, you know, again, I've sort of said this before, like, I'm not guilty of any hate crimes. I'm like, I am not like a misogynist or, or a horrible racist or like, you know, the things that would seem to, I'm a storyteller. So, like, why are people using that language? Like, I hate you, Lindeloff. You or vitriolic language, like, you do not deserve to write.

There's this guy who's been sort of incessantly trolling me for the majority of my career named Devin Farachi. And I might be mispronouncing his name. And he might like, I'm now doing the one thing that you should never do with someone who's actively trolling and identifying him. But like this guy owes me like $40,000 in like therapy bills. Like I'm, I'm obsessed with winning him over. And I never will. Like I never ever will. But he's like, he's just, he hates me.

Yeah. He doesn't hate my writing. And so what my therapist says to me is, well, what are you writing about? Yeah. And then like, and so I choose to go into this area of what you just said, where I find comfort, whether it's true or not. But it's this idea of like, I'm writing about something upsetting. Yeah. And by the nature of, you know, whether you, whether your brain is telling you, well, I trusted you to give me answers on loss and you didn't give me answers.

And therefore I hate you. And that's why I hate you. My therapist would say, well, the reason that they really hate you is they wanted the show to give them something. that it didn't give them. And that happens in life. And television shows should give you what you want because life is brutal and yada, yada, yada. But you mentioned podcasts being an intimate relationship, which I think they are. But television is essentially an incredibly intimate relationship, much more so than movies. It comes into our homes. Right. We watch it where in our comfy spaces in our in our in our slinkets or whatever, you know, hypothetically we wear. And, you know, the relationship we have with these stories, like we watch. Now it sounds like an

like an old house. I want to watch my stories. Because you use the word slank it. Well, for both. I'm watching my stories. Sponsored by Slanket. That's our presenting sponsor this week. But, you know, we're watching them, we're engaging with them. We want to be moved by them, which means we want to, we're serving up parts of ourselves to these shows. We're handing over ownership of our emotional state for a half hour or an hour or two or three years. And that can cloud your judgment after a while because it becomes this personal ownership thing. And, you know, I think I'd like to come back to it even, again after this, but, you know, I adored lost. And I think I certainly wasn't alone in that. And the

experience of watching it was so meaningful and all-encompassing that there's a sense that the longer goes on, the more ownership you feel over it. Right. And final seasons of anything are the moment when a show reminds you gently or not gently that you don't own it. Sure. You've been privy to someone else's story. Right. And that can be very jarring, especially with that level of connection. That's the thing that drives David Chase nuts, I would assume. That's what he's saying to his therapist, presumably he would have one. I hope he seems, he seems to write a lot about it. He seems to do it.

But that sort of idea of like, you guys go, you can keep having the conversation as long as you want, but I don't owe you an explanation. And he doesn't. But like, well, either to you. Yeah. Well, arguable, you know, because I think that's another aspect potentially for, for, through the glass half full prism, why I'm a divisive figure. the glass half empty prism why I am you know reviled by some um is is the idea of like I'm out

there and there he is like at Comic-Con walking out on the stage like he fucking owns the universe like oh god this bastard like you know he's interviewing Ridley Scott on location at Comic-Con like you know versus the react you know what's what's really happening in my mind in those moments is like holy shit don't say anything stupid how did I get talked into this why couldn't get Chris Hardwick to moderate this thing because Ridley wouldn't talk to him. So all these things are happening. And all I'm feeling is like, I, you know, when this panel is over, I'm going to be sitting in the chair that you're sitting in watching like Joss Whedon basically do a Q&A.

So like we are the same. But I do feel like this idea of I'm out there and I'm talking about this stuff. And certainly with Lost, there was, look, let's just call, let's just call it what it is. This is the clickbait right here on, on Twitter, which is Linda Lof. admits, but it's sort of like, there, there was constant politicking required on Carlton and my behalf to basically say, like, answers are coming, answers are coming, answers are coming, independent of whether they were. We had to be saying that even before there was an end date of the show just because there was this, this thing happening in the media culture where it was

being demanded of us. And it simply wasn't viable for us to just remain silent. Like, it wasn't, Because our silence would have made people nervous. Right. It's true with that level of investment from both audience and network. And it was a very, very big deal on a very, very big stage. But what's so fascinating to me about Lost and your career is you sort of bridge both sides of two eras of television. Because you and Carlton were, I think, the first public faces of a show, the first showrunners to be public. And you engaged with the public and everyone loved it until they didn't.

and now you've been sort of cast into a situation where, you know, you have a public persona and reputation and people expect that of you and want to speak to you, but then also you've, I think, wisely pulled back from it. Right. But in many ways it stuck you in a middle ground where you've done one and not the other. You know what I mean? There's some people who have just never spoken. Sure. And they can just do that.

That can be their thing. Yep. But, you know, through loss, it became an expectation for all show runners across the board in any kind of show. Right. So you kind of can't split the difference, right? I mean, or can you? That's what has struck me about the last few years is I felt like you've sometimes been stuck in that middle place

where you would like to remove yourself from it. But one more thing, you want to add, you can't just let all that talk go on without you. Yeah, it's a work in progress. I mean, I am who I am and I am, you know, I think that there's a human instinct in anyone to defend oneself, you know, certainly when you're attacked. and but like when lost was happening the sheer magnitude of of it happening at first was just completely and totally terrifying

and then you know Carlton gave me a critical piece of advice that sort of like saved my you know my emotional well-being in some ways which is he was like the show is immensely hard to do and everybody is watching and you just don't I can't explain the sensation of what it is like to be sitting at a restaurant and the table behind you is talking about your show because every bone in your body is like feeling like this immense pride and then a desire to sort of turn around and Marshall McHugh in them, you know, like. You know nothing of my work. Yeah.

And well, or just to basically say like, I would like to personally thank you. Yeah. Like, and then they look at you like, you fucking freak. Like, why are you, he's dropping on our conversation? Um, when that conversation turns from like, oh my God, are you watching Lost? It's the best show ever into the other conversation that is also happening to a restaurant. You don't know what that feels like either. Sure.

And to sit there silently while like, um, you know, someone who doesn't know you is talking about you personally, you know, with loss and the end of Lost, it was hard. It was really, really hard with, you know, the Prometheus in particular because I was being, um, a certain level of authorship was being ascribed to me. Yeah. That was like infuriating. Well, that's also the thing about, we were talking before we started recording. In TV, there is an assumed autorship now.

Right. Movies is the opposite of that. Right. No one knows who does what, and it's totally opaque to everyone on the outside. Right. So if your name is the name people recognize on the poster, you're going to get, you're going to get what's coming at you. And we all know, like, you know, the Lindelof brand is just much bigger than the Ridley Scott brand. Okay.

The second biggest name on the poster. No, and not to mention John Spates, who, you know, I was very, very careful to give a very accurate presentation of exactly how everything happened from the moment that it happened from the moment that I came onto it. And you can read all of, you can read all the material that's out there on the internet. So there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of John in that movie. And like, but there seems to be a general naivete about the way that movies get made and written. So like out of one side of your mouth, you say, Why is like every big Hollywood blockbuster have nine writers on it? But in this case, we're going to, we're going to assign authorship.

Yep. Which doesn't seem necessarily fair. Now, if Christopher Nolan, if it's a Christopher Nolan movie, it's authorship through and through, right? But, you know, you don't blame David Goyer for the parts you don't like. That's right. That's right. I mean, here's the thing about loss for me is that when I was talking about bridging two eras,

the first two and a half years you're making a network show on a scale that really hasn't been done, but you're making a network show and that you're serving story, more story, more story. You don't know when it's going to end. You don't know what it's going to be. And then you get permission to have shorter seasons and have an end date and tell a different story. Right. And to my mind, you know, I, it's one of my all-time favorite shows. I love it. I love it. I think about it. I miss it a lot. You know, I've been public that I don't love the finale. I love that you made the finale. It means so much to me that the show that I was invested in, the people who co-created it and ran it, were allowed to finish their story. You know, that, that was, that's pretty unique.

Certainly in network, right. I mean, you, you, you, you landed the plane, which is a, I realize now a terribly apt metaphor. But that is remarkable. And the fact, I mean, it becomes a question of what you value in TV. And nothing that happened on that, I mean, that's the other thing. People often look at endings as the end all be all and they say well that invalidates everything I did oh my god how could you think that how much fun did we just have right and we're going to miss this every season of television season going forward you know it's it's a unique thing to have been in the hands of people and then we were able to see where you were taking us right that journey is worth it I think but I think that is maybe that's a level of that requires a level of distance or you take

a moment to consider that I think people in the moment are like well it didn't do what I wanted it to do sure and that's it you know I And I appreciate you saying that because certainly at the time that we negotiated the end date, that was like one of the most sort of harrowing pieces of business that I've ever been a part of. And again, I want to, you know, in the Fargo tradition, this is a true story and I want to, you know. Protect the names of the dead and the living. But that was not easy because just even though in the. halfway through the beginning of season three of lost, which was definitely the creative low point on every single level,

at least through my own lens. The show was still doing monster ratings. And so the idea of going to ABC and saying, we want to announce an end date right now. And even my agents were like, that is an unreason. That's a non-star. That is an unreasonable ask.

It's not going to happen. I feel like some people listening, I think, don't appreciate the sea change. And we won. I mean, you know, Carlton and I, you know, waged a battle and, like, blood was drawn and we won. And I don't expect accolades for that. But, you know, I will say that, you know, the breaking point in the negotiation was it started with we're never going to end the show and we're going to just hire somebody else to run it and it will continue without you.

And we're going to call your bluff because we can't imagine that you'll be able to live in a world where you actually walk away from loss because we wouldn't let to end it. And we're like, okay, I guess we're gone. And then they came back and said, okay, we will end the show after nine seasons. That was their opening salvo. So the fact that we got them down to six and that the remaining three seasons, you know, two episodes, you know, three episodes shifted because of the writer's strike, but we did 14 in season four and 18 and 18. But, um, you know, like the, the fact that we got

any ending at all, like, I, I bled for that. So it shouldn't be like, my attitude, though, isn't, you should be grateful that you got an ending. Yeah. But at the same time, I kind of felt like, if ever there was a show that needs to tell the people who have come this far that it is, that, that it is going to end, period. Like, just, it's not the never-ending story, you know, like I'm struggling for an Etreou reference, but like the Luck Dragon was not with us on that day. And so I felt like it was triumphant that it would create a tremendous amount of relief for people. I think now when you watch a television show, no matter what it is, including the leftovers, people watch television assuming there's an ending. And that in and of itself is fairly revolutionary for television as a medium.

I mean, you guys were sort of at the forefront of that. The sense that the TV is an investment that has to be repaid to our satisfaction or else the whole thing becomes invalidated, I think, is a very dangerous way to approach anything. Right. It's also, you know, there's a certain level of risk investing in any storytelling, particularly in television when you don't know how thick the book is. But there's something very exciting about not knowing how thick the book is. So, like, imagine, for example, that Howard Gordon and Alex Ganssa basically announced midway through Homeland's first season.

We're not, there might not be a second season of Homeland. What if they just said that? Then you watch the Homeland finale through the prism of they are going to kill Brody. Yeah. Like, they could. But because it hadn't been announced that way and because the show was garnering all this buzz, there was a part of us that knew that they weren't or they couldn't. They couldn't. They tried and then Showtime wouldn't let them.

Like, and again, this isn't me telling tales. And I think, like, hindsight is 2020 and all that stuff. But I completely understand the decision in the way that it was made. But like, and I've heard you guys talk about this, but what if Homeland was just those, you know, like, is the honorable, does there need to be any more honorable wife? There does not. Like, it's, honorable woman. Sorry. I'm mixing it up with the good wife.

But it's sort of like, it's, you knew exactly how long the book was when you opened it out. Now, the flip side of that is, if you're looking at something like Lost, before you knew that you were going to be able to end it, when you were working on the pilot and you were working on the first season and it was becoming a phenomenon, you didn't have Penny and Desmond. They were not on your horizon. I don't know if you had four-toed statue written in your notes. No. You know, there are examples of, this is one of the beautiful things about the chaos of TV is that, you know, these happy accidents, these sudden leaps of imagination, this random. casting that turns into an essential star and tapping into that I imagine is must be terrifying at times but also kind of exhilarating you're working with that in net it it was exhilarating

but I will say that and I've talked about this ad nauseum so I'm going to try to find a more interesting way to to say it now which is that almost out of the gate like from the first from even I think as as early as the pilot the the the primary question being presented by both the media and fans alike was, are you making it up as you go along? And this was said with the arms akimbo. And so the answer had to be no at all times because you couldn't say like, guys, let's just be pragmatic about this. I met JJ the last week of January. Yeah. It is now May. In that, you know, in that 13 week interval, we shot and edited a two-hour movie. And no, we did not have the opportunity to sit down and basically break out the entire series of loss.

Which could have been two or nine seasons. The answer was, of course we're not making it up as we go along. We completely and totally have a plan. And I think born of that lie, that forced lie, you know, it's like tell the people what they want to hear. Like, guess what, America, you are safe. Yeah. That is a lie we need to hear.

And when it gets shattered, like, you get mad at the people who told it to you, but you wanted them to tell you. Yeah. I don't turn to my son yesterday morning and say, they closed your school because there was a water main break. No, they closed your school because some freak, you know, sent a letter saying that there were bombs and backpacks in LAUSD. And now 650,000 kids are home today because that's the world that you're living in.

That's not what I said to my son. And if, you know, like, you have to basically mitigate the damage and create an era, you know, an era of. But because we were forced to talk about the show and I won't, I take full responsibility for everything that I said. But it's like, you know, people want you to, you give the answer that. that people want you to give because when I would try to even feel out the honest answer, whereas like, well, it's an organic. What do you mean organic? What do you mean?

It's an organic process. You know who the monster is, right? You know where the polar bear. Well, yes, we do know where the polar bears come from, but we don't know when and how we're going to reveal that. This is, you know, you know, I was hoping, you know, I was going to bring it back to leftovers no matter what, but there's a looping way to get back there, which is the thing about the leftovers that I, I think I even appreciated in season one, but I certainly

appreciate it in season two is that it does not. it is not safe. The storytelling is not safe. And I think that, you know, despite the enormous breakthroughs of television in the last 15 years and some shows that I absolutely adore, a lot of it has been pushing the medium that we've come to know for so many years to the edges of quality. You know, and I, you know, Chris and I talk about this a lot, how Mad Men, for all its literary trappings, there was often an office comedy in it. You know, there was very standard TV relationships, but they were played in a much different way in a way we'd never seen before.

The exciting thing for me about this year, and I don't know if this is for everyone, this is maybe someone who just watches too much TV, but the shows that I love the most this year, and I would include your show in this this year, and Fargo and Mr. Robot, and transparent certainly, they throw out the rulebook entirely.

I don't feel at ease. I don't feel at ease in this medium that is essentially often a comfort medium. And I guess that's been a great breakthrough that we, is that the breakthrough that is born of the shorter seasons and the more control that you have as a creator? Or is that just you, let's use you state, let's just keep it with you in this case. Is that just where you are now as a creator and that you are more comfortable expressing that level of chaos in the work? Yeah, I think that's a part of it. And I also feel like

I've become much more comfortable with risk. Like, I can still acknowledge that it is risk, and I'm not, like, footloose and fancy-free. I still want people to really connect to my work and to like it, and that is important to me. But one of the, you know, the question that rose up, you know, most prevalently in the press that I was doing surrounding the finale of the leftovers, was, were you nervous about International Assassin? Like, you know, were you nervous about that? And so I try to unpack that question. And it's just a different iteration of the question that you just asked, which is like, like, you had to realize there was a tremendous amount of risk in doing an episode like that one.

And the truth be told is it's not that I don't give a shit, but it's just like, I've seen it all, man. Like, there's nothing you can say to me now, like that hasn't been said. Like, there's nothing. And so if I basically say the worst case scenario of international assassin, the worst case scenario is, you know what, Damon? You almost fooled me again. Seven episodes into the second season, I started to actually trust that you knew what you were doing again.

And then you just blew it again. So that's the worst case scenario. And my takeaway from that is like, you know what? I'm sorry you feel that way. I think this episode's rad. You know, like we all got super stoked about it in the writer's room. and this was not the first idea. You asked Somerville,

and Nick Hughes and Spiesiali and Parada. Like, if I could get Parada on board with International Assassin, and he's pitching, you know, he's pitching ideas in that episode. Like, we're on to something. And so if you don't like it, I'm sorry you don't like it, but this is the kind of story telling that I want to do. And if HBO is going to be benevolent enough to let me do an hour of the leftovers, basically, you know, set in the Hyatt in Austin, Texas,

and we're using Parallax View language, then, like, who are you to scare me off that bridge? Like, and so that's the short answer to your question, which is I think, like, you think Louis C.K. is scared of, like, doing the things that he does on that show. And I watch it, and even as a fan, of Louis, I basically go like, I can't believe he's having this conversation with this woman, you know, this plus size woman and he wrote this for her, you know, like, I feel like really

uncomfortable right now. And like he's being a, you know, like he's like, I feel like I'm really getting him right now. Like, oh my God, like he had to think that when we saw this, that we would judge him unfavorably and like, but we all watch it and go like, thank you for the honesty, you know, and like ultimately. Or thank you for your honesty, you know, in that case, thank you for Louis' honesty. That's right. It's not a universal point of view. He's being personally honest to something.

And even that we're not quite used to or comfortable with. That's exactly right. And so just, you know, be as authentic as you can. And I think that I was in an apology mode for a really long time, you know. Yeah. And because I felt like when people say roughly translated, you hurt me, you know, people say I'm mad at you. Yeah. For someone who's a people pleaser, like I am, your instinct is to apologize and just,

this is what, this is like a litany constantly with the kids. And, you know, we do this too. You start yelling at your kid. You know, you basically like, like, why did you do that? And they go, I'm sorry. And you go, don't just say you're sorry, you know, like, I really want you to understand that, you know, that pushing another kid down or hurting someone's feelings is like a real deal.

Don't just apologize. And I think I was just apologizing automatically without really sort of trying to It's like, what is it exactly I'm apologizing for? That I made a storytelling mistake. Yeah. In, you know, in season five of Lost, like, I didn't do Lapidus justice. That's what I'm apologizing for, you know. And I started to kind of like, started to get angry and like, I watched Carlton handle it with such grace.

And, you know, I went off on like, you know, on some kind of jag about, you know, how sorry I felt about hurting people on the loss finale. and Carlton sent me an email and he was like, I just want to remind you of a couple of things. You can take them or leave them. Thing number one is that the show was nominated for a drama Emmy in its first season, not for its second and third, but for its fourth, fifth, and sixth, you know,

in a highly competitive environment. And on top of that, we were nominated for writing the finale. Five scripts were selected that year. It was like us in three episodes of Mad Men and, you know, maybe, I don't know, if Breaking Bad was eligible that year or whatever. So your peers and the people just do not nominate finales because they're doing you a solid. So I'm just telling you there are people out there who think that we did pretty well. But it's so hard to hear those.

And you, yeah. And I'm just reminding you that they're there too and you have nothing to apologize for. So my wife also, God love her. seriously I I couldn't do this it goes so far and beyond she's the she's the woman behind the man she is literally like

I could not and would not want to do this without her it was killing her to see me out there you know locking my you know locking myself in the repent stocks yeah with my dong hanging out but there's something that's very if you don't watch the leftovers I was going to say we don't watch the leftovers

that that is a reference to episode 5 of season two I really appreciate you doing that. There's something essential to writing, which is taking part of yourself, inner self, and putting it out into the world, like putting it out into the page

or putting it out onto the screen. That is essentially where a lot of good writing comes from. What's been amazing to me to watch you navigate is how much of that to keep for yourself and how to stop putting that out there for other people to comment on. Do you know what I mean? It's an essential sharing that is what you do for living.

And then to see you post the loss finale, like in the first season of leftover, struggling with that was, I mean, we never met. But I thought that was, I felt a lot of empathy for you for that because this is what you do professionally. And then it seemed to be also part of your personal life in a way that didn't seem to be helpful. You know, it didn't. And I say this is someone who absolutely will always apologize for almost anything. I mean, that is my default setting. I want to please. I want things to be need.

I want things to be non. Well, exactly. I was going to. No, I mean, I'm not even. joking yeah that's that's built you know when you basically you know not to get off on that job but the idea of like when your identity is built around the idea of you are one generation removed from people trying to exterminate you as a you know as a people and that's like every every satyr is like this is the story of Egypt but just so we're clear everybody wants to kill you yeah like um that's a

very interesting psyche to yeah um and i'm it's you know david chase is um is not a jeep nope And I think that's a part of it. So, I'm not... No, but just you're navigating that in your professional life, the parts of, you know, the parts that are where you're required to share parts of yourself and then the parts where maybe you needed to pull back on that. Well, the self-deprecating, you know, one of the, you know, one of the part that, when I unpacked the origin story of that, of the Lindelhoff persona and just

referring, you know, referring to myself in the third person, let alone as, as the, you know, as the Lindelof persona, but I know exactly the moment in which it was born, which is, and again, filter this through the spectrum of, I'm telling an anecdote and I'm a storyteller, but this is the way that I remember, which is, so the lost finale happened, and I went off to Italy for a month and just sort of like decompressed. And, of course, like monitored social media like religiously like and and and sought out all the negativity and there's that weird desire to like bathe in it and so I was basically like I was really you know in a in a you know in a bad complicated place and then the TCA the television critics association they awarded lost I think

we tied with breaking bad or something like that but we were like either like program of the year or drama of the year at their TCA awards which is like this really fun kind of like non-televised. Like, it's just a great event. And like, I've developed relationships with like, I don't pander to critics because I want them to review my stuff. The only critics I respect are actually the ones who shit on me, but who, who are fair. Like Seppenwall, our entire relationship was born out of, you know, he came after me in that

really, in that season three period. I mean, I knew him before that. But then, like, I was like, I like this guy. Yeah, the fans are. And he's Jersey. but um and he's brilliant like so anyway uh so i so in my acceptance speech at the tca awards carlton was out of town um and it was like the end of the summer now that's when they all get together i i gave my acceptance speech and in my acceptance speech i read actual tweets about

the finale yeah just and it killed like and i looked down into the audience and tom hanks was there Yeah. Like he was there for like John Adams or something. And he was laughing so hard. And I was basically like, I'm going to just do this. Yeah. I'm going to be like Don Rickles on myself. Yeah.

This is killing. Like, you know, me saying mean things about me is giving me like I was confused dopamine and epinephrine. But I'm getting those hits. Yeah. You know, those. It's feeling good. This is like amazing.

Like the rush that I felt like, you know, that I was getting these huge. laughs when in truth like like I was like you know sharing this really intense pain but couching it as like a comedy act which in retrospect is where you realize like oh like okay Robin Williams I get it now like the best comedy comes from this like incredible place of self-hatred and people were finally validating all these things that I'd been telling myself over the years the emperor has no clothes they're going to find you out you're a fraudulent law if you don't deserve this. Then when people started to say those things, it felt good because I didn't feel crazy. It matched what you had inside. I was like, right. Yes, thank you for noticing. The emperor

has no clue. I've been trying to tell you this for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. And then by the time you the, the, the, that you feel the damage that that that does, it's a little bit too late. That, that, that genie, that sad genies out of the bottle. I, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I, I think that I'm going to write a show called That Sad Genie. That Sad Jeannie. And he did. He's like, are you sure you want me to grant that wish? You really?

You want to game that out a little bit there, pal? I can do that for you. But so let's go from that moment, though, to, you know, you've spoken about being unhappy, potentially even being depressed during the first, the beginnings of the leftovers since season one. What I'm most curious about and honestly quite inspired by is how you got. the exhilaration back and the fun back for season two of the leftovers because season two of the leftovers is a very challenging show is a very emotional show there are parts that were hard to watch it still deals with all these you know these things that are not these are not tv emotions uh you know grief

paralysis right um fury pain these are not easy things to express but you mentioned international assassin here's why i love that episode because holy shit look what you're doing yeah look what Look how far out they are on that ledge and they're singing and dancing and they're laughing. And that episode had an emotional gut punch. But it also had, you know, the kind of laughter where you're, the kind of laughter you do on roller coasters where you're scared and you don't know what's going on. And so the sound that comes out of you is a little bit crazy. Right.

How did you get back in touch with that feeling? Because, you know, that was what I think I wanted in season one because even just 11 the bread, the bread a little bit. uh yeah um season one was matza season one was matza and then you had a delicious hala yeah um yeah um yeah hala that's that um i think there's an there's a number of ways of looking at it the first is like you know you dial into what you dial into and all the stuff that we're talking about right now in terms of i was in i was i was i was in a i was in a hardcore emotional hole as a result of the end of loss and i was like here's here's what i need to do I need to go, I need to go work with Ridley on Prometheus.

That's going to get me out of this. Yeah. And that, that went fantastic. You know, in terms of it was the great, it was, it was like I was living the dream and I was really happy the entire time I was working on Prometheus and working alongside Ridley was unbelievable. But then I realized that all the things that were now being stuck on me and not just stuck on me, but as I said before, that I was now inviting.

Yeah. You know, I think in many ways, you know, adversely affected that movie in terms of my abilities to do my job well on it and, and a number of other things. And so, and, and, and so that happened. And then I was looking to do, like, to just find any way out of it. And I was like, oh, you know, Tomorrowland. Like, I'll go do a Disney movie because, like, you know, if you're writing something happy, you'll be happy.

Yeah. And then I read the leftovers. And when I read Tom's book, I started weeping. And I was like, there's, there's something really big here. I don't quite know how to identify it. But this book is basically about living in a world where you do not get answers. And people are in pain. And like, it's speaking to me, man.

And I have to be a part of this. And I locked in on the pain. And so season one was all about the pain. And then I met with Pete Berg, who was basically like in our first meeting, you know what? When I read your script, when I read yours and Tom script, I just kept thinking about Newtown. Let's go to Newtown.

So it's like, so that was the emotional frequency at which I was receiving the show and therefore that was the emotional frequency at which I was broadcasting. So even the writers on the show, if they pitched something that was like funny or like out there, I would do everything I could too. Because Prada is a funny guy. Like, he's a funny guy on the page and he's a funny guy in life. And like, I just rejected it. Like the culture of the show in season one was like, you know, any opportunity for

like levity, I would just like, I'd be like, no, that there is no room for these people are in pain. Yeah. Like without acknowledging that the Irish wake aspect of pain, right? Which is, you know, there's a, there's a, you know, look at it. That movie that keeps getting. made. I feel like, you know, like where it's, you know, dad has just died. Yeah. And the, and all the kids come back. Yeah. And, um, they hoist a couple and they and they, and they, and they,

they go and they get in trouble and they smoke joints and they get drunk into their old high school. Yeah, yeah. All that stuff. Um, like, uh, there, there's, there's, there's, um, it's the big chill, right? Like, I mean, unpack that movie. Um, and it's all about pain and grief and, and, and, and surous, but there's these incredible moments of, of levity and fun. Yeah. And so I was working through all that stuff. And the process of, of birthing a first season show is just, you know, is just brutal on every level.

And, like, there were just some, Mimi hadn't come in yet. Mimi came in around episode five, which is the Gladys episode. And like, it's like, okay, let's start with a stoning. But she just, like, she just understood the show and she completely and totally dialed in. and she started taking authorship herself of the show. And we started getting dailies that were amazing. And the writers, I mean, you and I were talking about this briefly earlier. But again, you're supposed to say this, but the writers on the show,

and they were great in season one. And this isn't to say anything. They tried their darned us, but like they couldn't get those comedy bills through Congress. but things just started like the ideas like from other people just started I started connecting to because I realized like the less I hold this show it's not just mine it was obviously Tom's first he's sharing with me but the more I open it up

opening back up to Parada and letting him infuse you know himself back into the show and making a couple of key hires between seasons and and and also like starting to feel like with episode six of of season one that we touched it. You know,

we touched that thing of what the show could be. Yeah. And like, there were moments of levity and guest. And, you know, and like,

and watching Carrie do what she did and transcending the material. So it's like, we can still have the pain. We can still do the hug with Holy Wayne. But there's, there's a much wider bandwidth

that the show can support than I originally thought. Yeah. And then as you guys have talked about, And I think that was a very purposeful direction for us as we came into the writer's room between seasons, which is like, let's narrow the focus. Like, let's be with one character at a time. And it's tough because, you know, when you're playing with Han, like, and it's like all you're doing is playing with Han. And like there's like, you know, Boba Fett.

And you're like, Boba Fett's so awesome. Like, let's get him into this scenario too. Maybe Bobfet doesn't work in this scenario. So like being very, say like, let's not think about all the people we're not servicing. Because at any given time, you can say like, we really did Jill Garvey a disservice this season. Not enough. Jill Garvey, not enough of her relationship with Michael, which we really wanted to develop more. Yeah, which is good.

You know, we wanted to do more with John and Kevin so that we, so that their ultimate payoff in the finale felt even richer. But you just can't. So it's like we're, nope, we're dealing with Matt this episode. And if we can find a couple of moments for the other characters to move them down, on the field and so be it but let's just be in this. We started to understand, you know, what what we could do and where we felt comfortable. And yeah, it was a grind again this year, but the process was much more fun. Tom Speziali came on and he's a pro. Like, he really helped, you know, keep me away from sort of my darker instincts and, you know, when I'm like when I would

start to lose it in the room in terms of something wasn't just breaking, he'd be the guy who's, like he brought in a ping pong table. And we'd play a couple of games, very competitive, all of us playing ping pong against one another. And then, you know, things just kind of started jelling. And the actors, I think,

took real ownership of their characters. I was able to listen to the show, tell me what it wanted to be. Well, that's also the beauty of television is that it does that. You know, when you write it these things in a vacuum, and then these characters that you're writing become embodied by huge.

humans and the humans, the actors, bring something to themselves. There is one, I won't tell you who, but there is one character on the leftover is not portrayed by a human. That's pretty amazing. I don't want to tell you who is. I'm going to tell you who is. I'm going to, I'm assuming. No, I mean, no, someone who appears to be human but is not human.

This is in fact synthetic. It's good Easter eggs for season three. They grow and evolve and they tell you what kind of show they are and you learn what's possible. But even that is such a delicate thing because now you're only making 10 of them a year. 10 of them a year. And you have to be in control of it to a certain degree, but then you also have to let it be. Right.

And that is a balance that is hard in any professional field, let alone one as high stakes as this. Yeah. And then never be in a position where you pat yourself on the back or do the heroic fist pump because just when you think that you figured out the show, the show changes. I mean, the show is like a child and sort of in many ways. And it grows and it matures.

and it becomes sentient. And then, so yeah, a cyborg child. But I'm stuck on that idea now. But it is because like, now it would be, you know,

the biggest mistake that I could possibly make moving into season three is saying like, all right, what, you know, what's the,

you know, what's the season three opening version of the cave woman? Like, how do we completely and totally do that again? Well, you have to find someone else

to piss off now. Yeah. I'm off the board. No, I'm still, I still want to piss you. Oh, good. Get me back off the show and then we can we do this.

I, I, this is my promise to you. You will hate the first five minutes of season three of the left hours. I love it. I can't wait. No idea makes it out of the room that we feel like you would like. That's a wonderful position to be in.

I feel like I'm ready to take on that challenge. I'm ready to. I've been too nice for too long. I'm ready to hate. You know, the thing, yeah, the thing that was so affecting to me this year. Well, actually, let me come back to that. a lot of the things that impressed me about the year seemed like on a very technical TV level.

I wondered how much of it is thought of in a technical TV level, meaning this. You know, the first season was so reactive. These people were enduring something that had happened. Second season, they are active. They are literally moving to a new place. They are exploring the roots of a mystery. The first season, you have characters who, you know,

you're not only not telling people answers, you have people that won't even talk. This year, when we see Liv Tyler, she basically says, enough of that, start talking. Right. It is very active in that way. When you are approaching something that is not, you know, I don't, not the things were broken, but there are things you want to address. How much of it is like getting under the hood and really saying, well, this wire is misconnected, let's just reconnected. Is that, I mean, that's not the most poetic way to think about something like writing, but that is part of television. It's not just part of television, it's part of storytelling.

And I think that we, you know, we, we forgot, you know, sort of like one of the most fundamental rules of writing anything, which is have your characters want something, even if they don't know that they want it. Right. But if they do know, then have them articulate it and then make them go get it. And if you just think about season one, just as you just said, they weren't articulating any of those things. So Kevin is just basically kind of like wandering around and stupor and he's angry at the guilty remnant. He articulates in the pilot, I don't think that we should have Heroes Day, but that's a reverse want. He's just basically like he's pissing over somebody else's want. So it's like basically like, what is Nora want?

What is Kevin want? And so it's not just, it starts in a very kind of nebulous, obtuse way, which is they want to start over. Okay, like, what's the most radical story version of that? If you want to start over, you don't just, like, clap your hands on January 1st and say, we're starting over. You do something. So he's going to turn an o'er, and he's going to say, let's get out of here. And then they're going to move to this place that is presumably safe. Then once they get there, then what does he want?

Now he wants to get rid of Patty. And so, like, you, you just, we constantly, like, asked those questions. And it helped give the story design a lot more specificity. And maybe it's why characters like Jill were much harder to write in the second season because I still didn't entirely dial into what she wanted. Right. She was more, like, what she wanted was to make sure that Kevin and Nora didn't detonate. And so she served almost like kind of like a Jiminy Cricket, a character.

Yeah. A Jimmy Cricket dead in the box. Rap by Evie Murphy. Like, but sort of like, minus her intention because we didn't want Jill to be Dana, you know, like we wanted to avoid the, the, the mopey teen trap. Yeah. You know, like, like, which is so hard to do on TV. Because again, like, I'm, you know, I'm 42 years old. I'm a male.

The character that I identify least with on the show is a 17-year-old female in terms of like what she is going through and what her intention is. So, you know, again, a grand disservice to that character. But like when you can figure out, that's why Matt's episode in season one, episode three, someone's trying to buy your church. Aside from the fact that there was narrow point of view, you just knew what he wanted. And then he's behaving, he's acting in a way to get it. Same with Nora. Her bat, if it was just Nora Durst goes to a conference in New York, that's not an episode.

It's Nora Durst goes to a conference in New York and someone stole her badge. Yeah. You know, now she's going to find that person. Yeah. It's so obvious, but we got lost in the weeds. I've written this and I've said it and I imagine after we've spoken now, I realize you probably heard me say it, but since I have you here, I wanted to get your thoughts on it directly.

A theory I have. As opposed to just shouting at you in my car, like a madman. Oh, good. Well, feel free to shout. Yeah. I've expressed this theory so you know it then, that basically, one of the things that moved me so much about this season was this, I've gotten the sense that you in your writing

can tend towards not conclusions, but you write elegantly and neatly. And for example, in episode one, getting the Garvey's to Texas, or maybe that's in, sorry, it's in episode two. It's at the beginning of episode two. We see them arrive in episode one, but we see them go. Yeah, yeah.

That is like one of the most beautiful, economic scenes I've ever seen. You basically say what are we doing? Why are we doing it? Here's a secret. Here's a secret. Boom. And it's elegant. It's thrilling because I like TV writing. I'm like, my God, look what he just did in 100 seconds.

So much of the second season of the show has to take you to the edge of uncertainty and stay there. And that's in a very and, you know, from a Jewish American-Nese goes perspective, staying in that uncertain place is hard for me. Yes. And it's also hard in

my writing and not necessarily even creative writing if I'm writing a critical piece or a you know an essay or something I catch myself getting too cute I want to you know tie the edges off I want to I want to tie the knot right leaving but I find my best work is the work that just sort of hangs there and leaves you in an emotional place as opposed to some bit of cleverness sure um I was watching the season as sort of a meta narrative on your comfort with letting the mystery be obviously you put it right in the title and am I completely would your hypothetical string agree with what I'm saying? Am I totally off the mark? No, you're, you know, it's right on. I mean, I think that

finding a balance of self-awareness in your own life in terms of like, this is who I am and this is what I like. And hopefully people will continue to pay me to do it so that I can make a living at it. But even if they didn't, I'd still be doing it. Like, so just come to terms with that as opposed to what I was doing, which is like, there's something wrong with me. I need to change this up. Like, I need to, you know, I need to stop throwing the screwing. ball like because it you know they're it's not a pitch that's working for me anymore but why do why is that my favorite pitch to throw right and and then and then also on on the level of the show basically being unapologetic for itself i think that the first season lacked a degree of

self-awareness so that when you use max richter's music in season one it just felt like oh yeah they're sad i get it when you use it in season two there's a balance between that and the other music that we were using. Yeah. You know, in terms of saying like, there's not only this. We're moving between these poles and we're expressing characters who probably can't let the mystery be. I mean, like, that's the, you know, that.

And also hearing Iris Demand's performance of that song. And that wasn't, by the way, the go-to song for quite some time, the operating title. We always were going to change the title sequence. but we were going to use Otis Redding's cover of nobody's fault but mine. You know, and it had this same, it had like this propulsive kind of energy. And I was like, and I love the lyrics because this is the show, all the characters think are so narcissistic. They're so narsi that they think that the departure is their fault.

They all do. And I can identify with that, right? I'm speaking that language. And so, but when we started putting it to the image system that Angus cooked up for the, for the new opening title, that song didn't work anymore. And then the Irish Dement, which this guy, Patrick Markey had turned me on to when I was down in Austin, he just sent me like a YouTube video. And I saw her performing it. And there's like a guy with like a standup bass.

And she's kind of smiling. And her smile, my read on Iris Dement's smile was go fuck yourself. Like, you know, like playfully. And I was like, that's the tone of the show. The tone of the show, here's more clickbait for you, people, is go fuck yourself playfully. Enjoy it. Because guess what? Fucking yourself's awesome.

In college, I did it twice a day. So, but like, like, you know, and I think that the audience actually respected that we were, that we were kind of saying like, here's what we are. Go fuck yourself. Like, and fuck us too while we're at it. Like, you know, I'm really embracing the new policy, the new cursing policy. The lack of the Disney Corporation owning your podcast. But there was also the sense that was so prevalent in season two that I really responded to, which is the show is asking a question, you know, that what does, how do you reconcile yourself? with a world in which the people you love most could go away to any moment.

And of course, there's a word for that world, and it's called ours. Yeah. And so if you're making a show that is really about our world and about issues that happened to any, could happen to any of us at any time, use fantastical elements, use flights of fancy, use heavy imagery, use Hyatt's in Texas to tell that story. Because a story about people losing people in their lives is a documentary. Right. And that's not what we want to watch.

That's right. Some people want to watch it, but that's not what we want to watch on Sunday night. on HBO. Right. And you want to watch progress. I mean, like, I think that you and I could have an entire series of conversations about the wire that nobody would want to listen to, but I could just go on and on about how brilliant that is. Sure. But ultimately, you'll book the studio. You know, you only needed to watch season one of the wire to kind of know that the ending of the wire whenever it was going to be was not going to say like Baltimore is saved. And not only is Baltimore save, but Baltimore is now basically the, the petri dish that is going to save America.

We're going to get something done here. The wire is going to give us a solution for class difference and racism and addiction and the failings of the education system and the cynicism of the media. It's going to fix all that. No, it's just going to show it to us. But at the same time, the characters didn't accept it. You know, Lester is still friggin' there, you know? And so, like, you can do a show where you're living in that world, ours. But if the characters can't accept it.

And so the minute that Nora Durr says, I don't want to be that person who gets shot in the chest by prostitutes anymore, I'm leaving that energy. I don't want to be defined by my loss. And then it, but then it comes in, it knocks on her door and it's pointing like a gizmo out. Yeah. And it's accusing her of being responsible for the loss of the girl next door who she knows in her heart is not really gone in the way that her children are. Then you're on to something. Yeah. And by the way, I should note, the reason I'm not asking you to explain any specific detail of the season is because I am firmly now believing in, believer in letting the mystery be. I appreciate. I don't want to know. And, you know, at the beginning you mentioned that you did some press partly to save the show. And so now I forgive you. Because I actually didn't even, I didn't read the, I didn't read the, I didn't read. the interviews that you did. Right.

Because I wanted to test that and see how it would go, not engaging, you know, with that, the meta conversation about the show. No, I heard you. This is strange because here we are now talking to one another and you watch what I write and I listen to what you say about what I write. And I, you know, and I heard you and Chris when you were saying like, I, I almost wish that Damon wasn't out there talking about the show. And I was like, I was just shaking my, nodding my head, not shaking my head, not shaking my

nodding my head going like, I wish I wasn't talking out there talking about the show either. Like, you know, trust me, there is no part of me that feels like, I mean, I'm enjoying the conversation that we're having now. And I also feel like it is fundamentally hypocritical for me to expect the cast of the show to go and do like all this press and that I am above it all. Right. If it, like, if it is being demanded of me, why do I get to say I'm not going to go out and sell? Right. Like so there's a there is, you know, in the, in the immortal words of, of, of, of, of, uh, of, uh, of, uh,

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, that's what the money is for. And so I, I, I do feel like, like I don't get to say no to that stuff. Um, or at the very least, um, uh, uh, I do feel there's a debt. Maybe, maybe I'm wrong about that. Like, I, as a fan of like, uh, breaking bad, like, I want to hear Vince Gilligan talk. And, you know, and I watched Mr. Robot, and I love the fact that Sam was not talking during in season, but then when he decided to start talking after season, I, I don't, I guess I don't feel like I deserved it, but it's like, I want to hear what this guy has to say about his art. Podcast interviewer, I was grateful, as I am grateful for your time here. We should probably

wrap up and let me, let me do so with a, a song. Let's let's sing a little bit. Let's do so with the song. Two questions that are essentially the same question, which is what story with, again, no specifics. I'm just curious what emotional story you feel excited to still tell with the leftovers. B-side, how are you? Wow, how do I take the second part first? Just a snapshot, because we're speaking in December. You've just had the show renewed.

You're about to go into this. You'll have the holidays. And then at some point you're going to have to go back into this world and into this. How am I? I'm feeling, you know, I'm good. That's like my general state of being. I'm happy. And I'm starting to feel anxiety.

Like, you know, my anxiety manifested. So as waking up in the middle of the night, always at the same time, like between 2.30 and 3 a.m. And sort of lying there for 45 minutes or so before I can go back to sleep. Sometimes I can't. And that started. happening a couple days ago, coinciding, you know, like about three days after the pickup, whereas like now I'm going to have to, excuse me, do this. But it's a good anxiety because, and this isn't hubris, but it's sort of like, if we can retain the team, you know, from season

two, I know that we can make a great season of television, like, because it's not all on me. Like, it's not, you know, I get, I get to be, I feel like I have control enough that I'm not feeling anxiety about that where most anxiety derives from being out of control. But I also feel like when I relinquish control and other, and I allow others, like, there's just super smart, talented people all around me that have taken an intense pride and ownership on this show. And that's why we fight and argue in the writer's room, which is like, it's their show. show now too and I love that. Like they would they would die they would bleed for the show. And so if I can you know if I'm fortunate enough to get those individuals back then the season's going to be good. It's going to be a lot of hard work. But so I'm not like I'm not worried about like shitting the bed and that famous last words. But so you know good talk to me in two months.

And then we're meeting for our wire pod then. Good good. And then you know, The other part of it is I know when I don't know. I mean, I have gut instincts about the story that I want to tell. And they're all sort of attached to, you know, they're all sort of attached to, you know, a continuation of preexisting themes, but magnifying certain areas of them in one of the areas that I've been really interested in is this is what I'll call like the life of Brian. idea. You know that movie? The Monty Python film where, and Brian basically, he lives next door to Jesus or like in the same neighborhood as him. And as Jesus is, as becoming Jesus, you know, Brian is sort of stumbling through, through life. And Graham Chapman does a full Christopher Eggleston. Yeah, Graham Chapman shows his dawn. So there you go. And sort of bears like a,

like a slight resemblance to match Edison. There's something. some way. Dong wise. Anyway, my dad showed me that movie, like most of the Python movies, before I really had any level of understanding. So,

like my takeaways from it, but I always remember that scene, where he's, he's trying to hide and he just jumps up on this box and he starts making stuff up. Yeah. Like, and then the Romans scuttle by and he's safe.

And then he's like, and he gets off the box and like, the followers are like, hey, wait, what were you saying? and he's like, no, no, no, that was just bullshit. Like, and then they just start following him. And I, I've always thought that, you know, the idea of the reluctant profit, you know,

we've, we've explored this area almost ad nauseum, at least for us as writers of, of where is my mind to the point where it's like, we, like, we went from like, how we can't use that song because Mr. Robot used it to like, let's grind it. Let's use it over and over again. I actually laugh when you and Chris talk about it because it was partially intentional. But anyway, that story is now told. Is Kevin crazy or not? Yeah. Now, maybe he is and maybe he isn't. But Kevin is done asking himself that question because he chose what was behind the crazy door.

I mean, in terms of like he drank the poison. So he didn't go with Laurie's version. Right. He didn't. And Kevin Garvey like basically check. into a mental institution at the beginning of season three is not a story that I'm interested in telling. So if Kevin Garvey decides that he's not crazy, then what?

And like, that's interesting to me. Yeah. And the show still has to remain in the space of Prada and I have always talked about the idea that because 2% of the world's population disappeared, the show should only be 2% supernatural. Yeah. And it should be 98% grounded. Yeah. That being said, there's a, there's like 40% of the 98% where it presents a supernatural, but it's just somebody job in you. And so, or you don't know. I mean, there's the uncertainty right there. David Copperfield in a post departure world, you're like, whoa, that guy's a miracle worker. Yeah. You know, if, you know,

David Blaine actually, you know, wants you to believe that those are not tricks that he's doing. And in a post departure world, maybe they're not. Right. And so you can't tell anymore. And that idea is really interesting to me. And again, just because we're talking about Fight Club, I've always loved, I've always loved that bit in Fight Club where Ed Norton hasn't quite figured it out yet. And like Meatloaf and Jared Leto are like, yes, sir.

And he's like, what? And so the idea of how are people treating Ken? Kevin once his legend begins to spread, but he still just wants to be Kevin. But Meatloaf won't leave him alone. Meatloaf, season three, you heard it here first. That was my takeaway. I'm sorry. Yeah, we're getting the loaf because, let's be honest, the show is called the leftovers.

And nothing keeps like a nice loaf of meat. You know, I, how can anyone ever criticize you for your endings? Because that was perfect. Right. I mean, I can't imagine a better note to end on. Yeah. I can, but. Feel free to pitch me some more.

the same spirit of season three. Let's quit while we're, while we're ahead. David, I really can't thank you enough for your openness, your time and your kindness, even behind the scenes when I was not being entirely kind to your show. It's meant a lot. And I have really, you know, you saw the evidence. You got me. You were being fair and I appreciate your honesty and candor. And that's why I continue to listen to you and I look forward to you hating, hating with a capital H. All, no, all caps. hating, sad emoji, hating, all caps, sad emoji, the first five minutes of season three. That's the gauntlet that I throw.

All I can say is, come at me. I can't wait. Hopefully we'll talk again. I want to see that meme. You, arms spread wide. Come at me, bra. Exactly. Nice.

I'm coming. All right. Thanks, David. Thank you.