The Watch - Ep. 90: 'The Walking Dead' Premiere, 'Westworld,' and 'Black Mirror' With Jason Concepcion

Episode Date: October 24, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the gruesome return of 'The Walking Dead' and where the show went off the rails (8:00), more 'Westworld' theories with Ringer staff writer Jason Concepcion (27:15), and the impressive execution of 'Black Mirror' (46:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So check it out. You go to uniclo.com or find a uniclo store near you. That's uniql-o.com. Uniclo, lifeware, simple made better. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, his cup. overfloweth. It's Amy Greenwald! Do you think... Hey, buddy, first of all. Do you think that my main take today is going to be about the wasteful use... Misuse of cavernay...

It's so hard to get good health. In Westworld? I mean, it actually was the ultimate baller move that Tony Hopkins just told his robots to waste the good stuff. You know he brought out the good stuff. Yeah. And then he destroyed his vineyard.

Then he just... Well, that was actually... I don't know if you noticed that. That was a tequila vineyard. Do you see that they were harvesting agave plants? I didn't. Are you on the Reddit? Are you talking about that on Reddit?

No, that's literally the only thing that I identified with as a human being in the episode. Andy, it's Monday. It's the Watch. We'll obviously be talking about Westworld. We're also going to do our first episode of Black Mirror Chat for nosedive. We'll be doing that a little bit later in the episode. But first, it would be, we'd be remiss, I think, if we didn't. Yeah.

Would you want to get some house cleaning first? A couple bits of house cleaning. A couple bits of house cleaning. House cleaning number one. Big day yesterday in the rock and roll space, Chris. In the rock and roll space. I'm a disruptor in that space, as you know. First thing, you know, I was surprised by the intensity of the discussion

and the feedback of the discussion we had a few weeks ago about the strokes. 15th anniversary of their classic debut, is this it? Yes. Young fire starter here came at me hard saying room on fire might actually be better. Yeah. I said that was nonsense. Just Drew Barrymore with these takes. I was surprised that many people on the Internet webs agreed with you.

And then I came back. The album is really good. Chris, Los Angeles, magical place. Yesterday I found myself at a pumpkin carving party. Yeah. Our friend Tyler invited us. You were busy working. A point that's going to come back later in my Sunday stories.

Okay. You know who was there. I do know who it is there. The listeners don't. Albert Hammond Jr., who many people know is a former guest of the Andy Greenwald podcast, but a few people might know. Long time. Long time.

He's basically like Bill Murray to your letterman, right? He, yes, he is. And he also is the guitarist in the strokes. And I mentioned to him, by the way, great pumpkin carver. He did the short, sharp, shiv technique that I think he learned from episodes of the wire or Oz.

But he carved an American flag into this big pumpkin. It was very good. Really? It was impressive. Okay. I mentioned to him. You turned it upside down,

Delo Rocha style? Not yet because the pulp was still a little wet in there? Yeah. You would have known this. He'd you've gone. Political pumpkin carving. Jokes.

He was very intrigued by this debate. Yeah. So can you, without giving too much, you know, I don't want to cross the public and the private here, But can you go up to him and you're like, Albert? Yeah. Albert!

I call him Al. Al. Funny that I should find you here at this pumpkin carving event. You want to know what my approach was? You may remember me from the Andy Greenwald show. That happened earlier. Yeah. And he said, definitely not.

And he said, who are you? Yeah. And that's actually the end of the time at the party. First of all, he's a quick carver. He did it and got up and was done. Other people were still, like, fiddling with their owl beaks and stuff. Like, this is next level. but he was done.

And I said to him, like, oh, you know, you're going to be playing shows soon because he had played a show the night before. And he said, yeah, I'm working on a new record, but also strokes are going to get back together. We're going to do something this year. I was like, great news. Funny thing about the strokes. Okay. We've been talking about them. So I don't, like, here's, just as a preface thing, if I, if you would come up to me and I was Nick Valenci.

If you were elbow deep in a pumpkin. You know, and I was like, you're like, guess what? Me and my friend had a cool conversation about how the best thing you'd, you'd, did was either 15 years ago or 13 years ago. Right. That would be like a kind of like, thanks for, thanks for taking the time out of your Sunday. First of all, go fuck yourself. The situation was mitigated by the fact that the best thing he's done in 15 years was the

pumpkin. And I think we all agreed on that. That's a good icebreaker. But, no, first of all, I would never say that to Nick Valenci, because he's very intimidating. Two, that wasn't my move. Yeah. Like this is, you know, you got to make friends. No, I know, I know.

I know. You can't get lemonade without squeezing a few lemons. You know what I mean? It's an old party trick I learned at a pumpkin party once. No, I just said, you know, we were talking about it because is this anniversary? It was just recently. It was the 15th anniversary. And we were having a debate about whether people were liked your first album or your second album better.

Right. And he was like, that's literally crazy to me. Because room on fire is clearly better? It's not that he didn't think that. It's that he was clearly still wounded by the fact that the press response and the general critical response when that record came out was this isn't is this it and he felt like great headline

I hope somebody used that his day this isn't I feel like that was probably on the cover of the enemy in like 90 block absolutely 100% he is still a little bit scarred and I imagine the band is that they think they thought it was a good record well they always have a friend in me

well that was what I told him and that's why he feels ready to return to your safe embrace just watch him with that sharp pumpkin knife true story last thing I'll say about it he brought his own, like, pumpkin-in-ered scooper with him. Really? Yeah, like, he rolls deep at the Halloween party. A room-on-fire commemorative pumpkin scooper?

It was an... That RCA was giving away. It's actually what they gave way with angles. Yeah. It's responsible for the Lumpkin on an angle. Anything else you wanted to address before we get going? Two of the quick things. One, Jimmy World played a show last night.

I went to an emo show by myself because my man over here had to work. The sweetness was, like, sing it back, and I looked around for my man. He wasn't there. I was watching a third. three to three football game. That's terrible. Last point, little TV critic housekeeping slash defense.

Did some people see this this weekend? You didn't because you were working. But last week, Mike Hale, one of the TV critics at the New York Times, ran a review of Goliath, your favorite Billy Bob Thorne. My favorite 2016 David E. Kelly show. Absolutely top two, let's say.

And the review ran, and the review said that, you know, the show didn't earn its artiness by being like elliptical and being telling the story out of order and like having the time jumps that it did because it backed up in a really weird way and maybe when you finish the series it'll make more sense. The next day, a correction ran saying that clearly Mr. Hale

had watched the episodes out of order. And people jumped on it. And I just want to say, been there, done that, my man. Have you actually? I just want to say it is a wonder to me that this hasn't happened more often. I actually have started episodes and been like, I have to stop and double check that this is the next step.

episode because this doesn't feel like it's coming. But that, you know. And it's actually, I would, my hot take on this is it's actually a testament. Some people would be like, this is proof that there's, there's too much TV or whatever because people can't keep up. Yeah. The churn. I would say this is actually an argument for how good TV is that people assume artiness.

Right. That's true. I definitely, definitely started the second season of Orange is the New Black by watching episode six of that season. I, 1,000 percent started Fargo's. season two by watching episode two and then episode one. And then I went back and watched them in the correct order. But I'm just feeling, when I saw that happen, I was like,

there but for the grace of God slash Mark Lassanty and Dan Fearman, go I, because it's tricky navigating these press sites and that happens. But I thought that was kind of an interesting thing. Don't leave Mike Hale alone. That's a crazy look under the hood, man. Isn't that interesting to see like the way things used to be? It's kind of a look under the pumpkin show. That is true.

Let's talk a little bit about, well, you want to do Walking Dead first or Westworld? Let's get it. Let's do a little Walking Dead. let's just because I feel like that also just happened last night. Well, The Walking Dead died as a going concern for us quite some time. A while ago. I feel like the last time we actually talked about this was that episode of Nebraska. Well, that was the last time.

No, because then it got kind of secretly pretty good, like two years ago when Scott Gimple took over. Right. And I wrote a piece for Granlin called. But that was actually about the wrong season. It was about rectify. And I was trying to trick people. It's like another American's piece, but you were like, The Walking Dead. Are we sure it's not good?

Slipped it past the old editors. Yeah. Yes, I think that it's interesting. Like, people have, when I say people, critical tastemakers like Chris Ryan have jumped off perhaps earlier than Joe Sixpack because the show still does Bafo ratings, but it has not really been discussed in the same conversation. It's to me, it's kind of, you know, it mirrors Gray's Anatomy in that I was. very into it for the first few seasons and found it pretty interesting, and then it just kind of like locked into its,

albeit a lot of churn, a lot of people coming and going. Similar body count on those shows. You're joking, but it's probably true. Not joking. And main characters getting offed in, unceremoniously or ceremoniously. Proposterous ways.

But, you know, obviously last night was something they've been built up a lot, that there's two main characters or one character at least one was going to die because Jeffrey Dean Morgan, Grey's Anatomy. Nice. was gonna hit somebody in the face of the spike bat

to reenact the torture sketch from Wu-Tang 36 Chambers. That's how they broke it in the room. I think so. I think they were like, we don't do enough. They're like, guys, quick season eight pitch. What if Negan ties up someone's asshole and starts feeding them? And then feeding them.

And then wait for it. Feeding them. Is anyone here in the room with me? What voice is that? That's TV writer room voice. Is that how people talk in TV writer? Man, you don't know a lot about this business. You gotta get under the hood.

Yeah, I know, seriously. That's my new podcast. Or parties. Under the hood. With Albert Hammond, Jr. Yeah, and maybe, like, we could have it, like, it's, like, a video component where you're just always, like, wiping oil off your hands, like, you've been under the hood.

When it starts. With Nick Valencia. It starts in Meteores where I wipe my hands and then tuck the rag into my belt. Yeah, and then you open up your MacBook. You're, like, just fade in. Just smear. Anyway. So some dude got hit in the face with a bat.

Look. But here's the thing is, like, I even walking dead fans, and I know that there are going to be a lot out there who are like, fuck you, bro, but like even walking dead fans that I know were like, ah, no way. Here's the thing. This was the longest. Can we say what happened? Well, we don't, we're not going to spoil it. Okay. But people got hit in the face with the bat, which, you know, it's Chekhov spike bat.

You know what I mean? Classic, classic trope of traumatic storytelling. This thing was effed from Jump Street. Not because this is a beloved monstrous creation from the comic books or anything like that that people were excited to have on TV for some sick, sadistic reason. But think about how they handled this. This is a show that played the worst kind of trickery, storytelling trickery earlier last season,

when a beloved character, Glenn, was essentially killed on screen. Yes. Only to be, and then they did the after show. You know how I feel. I'm always very pro after show. Yeah, yeah. just across the board, was like, I had to dance around it,

and it was very awkward, because they were essentially admitting by their silence or by the behavior that they were playing with the audience, tricking them, which no one wants that. He wasn't dead. And then, so learning nothing from that lesson, the cliffhanger was this new next-level big boss,

basically being like, one of your beloved characters will have their head caved in, but you have to wait six months to find out. Right. I was going to talk about this before the, episode aired just to be like let's, can we interrogate this a little bit? Like what we want out of our entertainment when we're like, biting our fingers for six months. I do think that you are starting to skew towards wanting happiness.

Yes. No, it's just think about what the payoff of that is who dies horrifically. Right. It's not what does it mean? How it's handled. The social media messaging of the show last night is like every time I looked at Twitter to get to see people getting like Seahawks Cardinals jokes off on the TL. It was just more like, guess who died tonight?

Isn't that cool? But that's... Nagin finally made his choice. But that's also learning the wrong lesson from what happened with Glenn. It's like, it's never the... It's never who you'd kill. It's why. And the reaction to it and what it means in this fictional enterprise.

So it's already kind of pretty fucked up, I think pretty sadistic and weird. They did do this before. So my big pet peeve with this, I don't... I can't even... even really in an informed way talk about who they killed in terms of like how it makes me feel because I haven't watched it in a while. But I did watch. And one thing that I think is weird is that they did the same thing where like everybody's

kneeling on the ground. And then Rick's like, I'm going to kill you one day. First of all, that's a top. Top shelf, Rick. Not tomorrow. I never got. Why do you think you can get away with when you're about to get killed? You can get away with like one day.

I'm going to kill you. And also, when someone says that and you're like, who should I kill, why don't you just kill the guy who just threatened to kill you? Kill that dude. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Don't leave any loose ends. Don't. How long has, I understand it's the apocalypse, but how long is Rick going to wear the Jordan Catalano, a lamlined fleece jean jacket thing before before, before it's like, people are like, dude, you need to get a new jacket.

It's like, bro. We've definitely passed by a windbreaker store before. Get a new coat. There are options. They're near Atlanta. Atlanta is a major metropolis. You could just dip in. When they're like, we got to go into the city to get some penicillin.

Yeah. And Rick can just be like, can you get me a coat? But it's like, yo. Because this coat smells like a baby that has been like. That was put inside the pumpkin that got carved yesterday. A baby and a pumpkin. Listen, listen to me. There is 100% a Patagonia outlet.

somewhere in Buckhead. You know what I mean? Like, you could get some other stuff. I just think that he's hot there. He's selling himself short. He needs breathable fabrics. Look. Your main point is that what do we want from television?

Is it really to watch people kneeling waiting to die? This is, this is pornography, not in the sexual sense, but in the sense that it is chasing a certain kind of emotional or, I don't even know if it's emotional. Nervous response, like literally in the sense of like electric neurons firing, your brain to feel a certain way and see something horrible. That's the level that this is on. And I say this as someone who has always been kind of frustrated with the show because it could be a lot of things. You could tell a lot of different styles of story other than this story just getting worse and

worse. When you have carte blanche and you have these ratings and you have zombies because people dig zombies. The question I would ask is, it did seem like a bunch of people were like enough last night. But what is the end game here? Like they're going to run for three to five to six more seasons. there's, you know that thing about like, if you thought there's a happy end,

you know, Game of Thrones, they thought there's a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention? Yeah, right. People know. Like, I think they're pretty clear that there's not one here. And then distill last night,

the other thing, by the way. The end game for this is 10 seasons. You know, like the end game for this is like a show that basically props up AMC across the board for a dead. They can tell everyone and keep going. Yeah, absolutely. The comic book's still going after many years.

But the other point about it was that they didn't even give you the benefit of what you wanted to see. Like, they made you watch 40 minutes as if the ratings were going to dip if they saw the bat hit someone in the first 30 seconds, right? Right. Like, that's just, that's just straight up trickery. That's not really respecting the audience.

Well, let's take a quick break. We're going to talk a little bit about our sponsor. So are we out on walking dead at this point? Yeah, I don't have anything really to add other than the fact that write better lines for your guys who are kneeling in front of people with spike bats. What's your, what's your go-to line next time you find yourself kneeling in front of a guy swinging at spike bat. Please don't take the guy next to me.

I'll be really helpful in whatever you need to do. So you would fully switch things. Are you hiring? You should just be like, you make some really compelling arguments. The time for trash talk is prior to being handcuffed and kneeling on the ground. Right. Did you just basically, low-key, tell me that you would sell me out? Are we going to be in that situation?

If we were, if we were, are you the one who's just like, like, like pointing to me. This guy. He's done it. He's done it full life. He didn't like a lot of television shows other people did. He doesn't even know how to watch the shows and order. He's bumming people out about Westworld.

Okay. We're going to take a quick break. Word from our sponsor. Come back. Westworld, first episode, Black Mirror. Hey, everybody just wanted to tell you a little bit about our sponsor today. Sonos. Sonos is the smart speaker system that streams all your favorite music to any room or every room.

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Blurb, make a book, leave your mark. Okay, we're back. We're going to talk to Jason Concepcion in a couple of minutes about Westworld, but for now, let's just get our feelings on the record. It's got real serious in here. Well, okay, this was the first episode that I felt like you could see the prolonged production process of this show. There were parts of this episode that felt like they may have been filmed for different shows.

I thought that Ed Harris' character, the man of black, even though we learned a little bit about him with the foundation that he runs and this idea that he's like on vacation, which was like an incredibly, I thought, bold line for him to say because it made that man seem, it made his whole thing seem, his whole journey seem incredibly stupid if he's like, I'm on vacation. basically the suspension of disbelief that Ed Harris is Colonel Kurtz basically and that he is trying to turn the game inside out and he's out there up the river. But if he just turns around, he's like, no, I'm on vacation. Don't talk to me. It was just like a weird like, so wait, what's the world outside?

I mean, to me that made me think of, I didn't mind that because it made me think of the Trump kids holding up like elephant tails they severed. Like, just rich people do stupid shit when they're on vacation. But those guys aren't like, I guess so, but that goes towards who they are. Like, he's a guy who on the outside has, like, a foundation that apparently cures people of diseases. Did that sound, is that your mind-blowing right now? Well, I'm just saying... Because he's good in one world, bad in the other. I guess that's true.

That's what is kind of weird, right? It's amazing. But for the first few episodes he was set up, I think tonally it was slightly different. I thought that there were scenes, like, I am not sure, like, in what context they shot the Anthony Hopkins tequila vineyard scene. Are you suggesting that maybe Arnold was a note they added in. Post. No. So that originally at Harris maybe was Arnold or he'd gone off the grid.

And then they decided they needed something else. So every time he says it's like, and that's why I'm chasing Arnold. That would be tough if that was the case. Do you think that? Nothing's impossible. And the Nolanverse. No, I don't think that. Okay.

But I do think it's possible that the background, backstory of the man and black changed between the pilot and the series going into full production over a year later. Okay. Which may account for some of the inconsistencies between the. way he behaved in episode one in episode four. I don't know that for sure, but that's certainly possible. I'm pretty sure that we answered the, is this happening in two different timelines questions? Probably.

I think so. Probably. The one, I actually paid attention to that this week because the idea of the asshole buddy, even the black hat talking about work, because everything is work, as if there is some sort of foundation. Like, they're Delos or something? Like, who? They're like the Delos Corporation.

Oh, that makes the... or that they're invested in it or that they have some business, their partners, they have a seat on the board. But the idea being that maybe the foundation that Ed Harris is referring to is the same thing. But I'm not in on that theory. Okay, you're not. No, I just wanted to.

Well, ask Jason about that. Okay. Anyway, what were some of your thoughts? My official review of this episode of Westworld is... Which is episode four. Episode four of Westworld. I'd like to quote the great Joe Pesci. You were serious about that?

That was my feeling. Okay. I have to tell you, I want to keep it light because the pleasure I get from the show is 0% watching the show. I enjoy talking about this with you. I enjoy talking about theories. I'm glad Jason's coming on. I like having my mind blown in ways that the show, in talking about details the show may have created or connections and may be making extracurricularly, it is painful to watch the show. I mean, this was a bad episode of television, and it was interminable episode of television.

So I kind of disagree with you? I mean, I don't think it's, like, unintertaining. I don't... This was a really dense one. There was a lot of, like, all... We're really connecting all these plot lines that have been kind of in different parts of the park, and now everybody is converging on Wyatt. First of all, what a cool name for a big bad guy.

But two, give me a... Throw me a freaking bone here. Give me a single thing to care about. If the emotional anchor of your 65-minute, 60-minute episode of television is two robots having flashbacks to robot things, what if they're not robots? I mean, like, isn't that semantic at this point? No, like Tandy Newton's whole journey is so deeply uninteresting to me. So she's waking up and they're robots and they're becoming sentient, fine. Like, the minute to go back, but that's not interesting because I don't care.

about them. Right. They're made up... You're just like really, like, out on robots. They're not interesting unless they're relating to people. Okay. You need to have some, you know, like, I don't think my MacBook is that interesting either. But the words I put down on covered in car oil and motor grease are genius. Listen, the reason I paid attention to that line about Ed Harris and the Foundation was because that seemed like a more interesting story to me. I wanted to chase that story for a second because it suggested a guy who has so much free time and so much money and such a complicated morality. What's he up? What's he on about?

This idea of him being, you know, immortal, and there's the woman, and there's the tattoo, and then there's poor Clifton Collins just keeps almost getting shot. I'm just deeply uninterested in it. And then the other part, Anthony Hopkins basically playing God in a way, which is we've sort of seen this thing before. We've seen that type of story before. The one thing that I still think is kind of interesting about the show is now starting to me to seem almost too obvious, which is that Bernard is a robot. The way they talk about him now seems to be overplaying their hand. Right. When he's like, he'd be careful with him, he's very sensitive.

If Bernard wasn't directly reporting to Anthony Hopkins is if Bernard is actually recording everything that's happening and so that she, her lines are going back to Anthony Hopkins. You know, it does seem to be one of those things so far, where all of the stories that they couldn't tell because of the scope of their agenda and their ambition, the littler stories are more interesting to me than this one giant story they're telling. Building the park seems interesting. People choosing to go to the park seems interesting.

Old versions of it seem interesting. But they're telling this massive story that involves teaching us about how it works and who these people are, but also clearly building up to the end of it or the next phase of it. Right. Okay. Let's call Jason in talking about. a little bit about what these phases could be.

Because I think what I want to talk about is, where are we going now? I just had one last point. Sure. Did you know? You don't like robots. The player piano? He plays modern songs.

Would you rather it was playing like ragtime? Would you rather it was playing like? What about Joplin though? Joplin actually would probably be anachronistic too, though, right? I don't know. Let's call Jason. Okay, we're joined now by The sheriff.

Saloon keeper. The tap minder. Jason Concepcion to talk to us a little bit about, I mean, Jason's just like the Indiana Jones on the forums, dog. He's just grabbing the idol. Jason, what's good on Reddit this week? Wait, wait, before we get it to Reddit, I want to bring Jason in.

I don't want to make him dive into the snake pits quite yet. Jason, can I read something back to you? Please. This is a post on the website, Twitter.com, posted by Network. It's Network with a three. That's Jason. Last night. And you tweeted Westworld Maintenance Level.

Technician 1. Cleaning jizz at a post with a water pick. How long have you worked here? Tech 2. Six months. Jason, your tweet is better than anything on the show Westworld. Because your tweet, and I wanted to say it because it's really funny. but two, talk to me about this,

because you are able to still find some joy in this profoundly joyless show. They are ignoring any bits of detail that might actually be funny or draw in people who, you know, full disclosure, don't care about robots. I just like, I am fascinated by the idea that that's a job.

Like literally, a job is, an entry-level position at Westworld is you probably put on a rubber suit go down to the refrigerators and, like, scrub body fluids out of the orifices of robots for hours upon hours. Yes. With, like, a wire brush. You got to start somewhere. But that is kind of gross and interesting.

And the show is so devoted to having this high-minded conversation about humanity and morality that it kind of doesn't want to deal with these other questions, these burning questions, quite literally. probably in some cases when Technician 2 doesn't do his job, that are created and a ripple effect from the bigger questions. And I feel like that's sort of what makes the show uninteresting to me because it's just going after the forest and leaving these VD riddled trees behind. Well, I think there's like, there's, I think there's like a fundamental kind of perspective issue, which is that, you know, the show asks you to ponder what happens if these robots become alive

when it's like obvious from episode one that they are alive. And that's keeping them from revolting is their programming and that they don't remember like what happened. But on a fundamental level, when you talk to them, they're alive. I mean, they can improvise conversations. They feel pain. They get upset at stuff. And so what's the mystery of the show?

I guess the mystery of the show is that we don't really understand fully what the world outside Westworld is like and you know we don't know where Arnold is. I also think that there's... No, no, no, go ahead. Well, I was going to say that I think that there's something interesting, Andy was kind of saying that he doesn't really care about the Tandy Newton character

and I get the... I get all the criticisms, but one of the things that I think is interesting about her is that they have stuff that's pre-programmed into them. Probably like there's even a church that, I mean, there is a church that they go to. There is things that they're supposed to quote-unquote believe in or things that they're supposed

to know about themselves. But what happens basically when they start being aware of the same ideas, like the ideas about God, you know, and that's what happens with the technician that we're talking about, the technician in the spacesuit, and how that helmet, and that's for the natives, that's a sort of icon for them. So if she starts to develop her own ideas about God or have her own ideas about history, because obviously her memory of what has happened to her is, distinct from what they are programming her to remember about herself.

That stuff is pretty interesting to me. And I also, I really like the idea that, like, there would just be this pagan religion built up around the things that people see out there. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the... I have one more question. Okay. Sorry. Interrupt.

I have a question. And maybe this is a question that has actually been answered because a couple of things, like last week I asked about Dolores' loop. And apparently that loop storyline has been. made available on some promotional websites, and people tweeted it at me. So some of these things maybe are out there. But just, I have a question about the economy of the place. But specifically, how much does it cost to make a robot?

Because they seem to have limitless resources in some ways. Yeah, right. To the degree where. But they, rather than just like throw Teddy out. Right. Right. So they spend, they let these guys get shot up with bullets and spend enormous amount of money in man hours and bleach hours.

cleaning them and putting them back overnight, essentially, back into it. Dolores has apparently been there from the very beginning and is so essential to the storyline. She can't be changed. And yet, our man, Tony Hopkins, has a full staff of butlers and maids who apparently do nothing but pour wine and sweep his hacienda. Like, that just seems like a weird use of robot resources. Similarly, if Ed Harris is the first person ever to go this far, what have those robots been doing for the last 40 years?

What loop have they been on if literally no one but Arnold and Ed Harris have ever met? you can go to that village and do what Ed Harris did or hang out in that village because Dolores and William go there too and that's like a trip that you can make but I don't think stopping killing everyone taking Clifton Collins and being like

show me the maze and then obviously that little girl is some sort of like you know guide or something true and the big outlaw whose name I'm blanking on. Why? No the Hector. Hector is we've seen him before He's an agent of chaos.

We've seen him take the town, and now we saw where he came from. Okay, you're right. Okay, so, Jason, do you have any insight into this, though? And, like, and how easy is it is to get access to the robot-making milk? Well, you know, that scene you're talking about at the hacienda was, that's the one that I really liked from last night's episode, because there's a game called The Sims. I don't know if you ever played The Sims.

But the Sims put you in control of, you know, little simulated people, and you could tell them to go to work and get dressed and clean the house and all that kind of stuff. And we used to do stuff when the Sims first came out, like make them get into a swimming pool and then take out the ladder, so they just swim around until they drown, or, like, build an island in the middle of the swimming pool and put, like, a barbecue, a toilet, and a bed out there, and then make them live there. You're a monster. And it was really like, yeah, I think about it now, like we, I'd make them get into the hot tubs around the hot tub with plants so they couldn't get out and then just cooked them for like three days and then it's like they'd get out and just die.

Who are you? And they're like that's. It sounds like he would have a good time in Westworld. This is Anthony Hopkins. And like it was that when you know, like looking out over his fields and he's got Ben, he can control all the robots obviously just by like a pitch of voice or maybe just hand motion. The question is like, why hasn't he gone full God mode before? Because it just seems like when I would play The Sims, that was you quickly graduated from,

oh, let's send the Sim to work and now I have to like make coffee to being like, okay, like, how can I just happen with these simulated people like as much as possible? And that was Anthony Hopkins. I think that's what Anthony Hopkins is getting at. He's like creating a religion now. Yeah. You know, he's like creating, he is God in there, so why not just go full on with it? Go to church, make them worship him.

He's got, you know, like years of genetic material on every rich person that's ever been to Westworld. He's an extremely powerful person. He also, they, she asks him about his legacy and not wanting the narrative to be backwards looking. And he laughs at that probably because whatever his point. plan is legacy making in a different way. The thing that I find still most compelling about the show is to look at it through this video game prism and to think about how in my days as a video game player and enthusiast, I was so absurdly white hat.

I felt that I had to behave in a certain way and interact with people in like role playing, like fantasy, final fantasy games. I had to behave with such decorum and allow the game to be played. quote unquote the right way. I was the most boring video gamer of all time. To the point of probably not even seeing half the things that the games could be because I felt it had to be done that way. So to realize that to take that concept, which I remember,

probably most people of our generation remember whether they behaved or they didn't, even before the days of GTA, to see it play out on this enormous scale is pretty interesting. It's just lax. Maybe that story in and of itself is hard to communicate on screen. Maybe no matter how you did it. My vibe for video games. Maybe Jason and I would be Jimmy Simpson and other dude if we had this conversation in a costume drama, I don't know.

But that doesn't seem that compelling to me, even though the idea behind it is. Whatever I played Max Payne, my vibe was very Jason Statham and Crank. Like, I was just like, never tell me the odds. I would, like, get cheat codes for eternal life or whatever and just like walk out into rooms full of guys. It just be like, oh!

I wish you guys could see the two-handed pistol. action that's happening in the studio. Jason, what's the harvester doing that's churning up the earth there? I have no idea. He's, I don't know, digging for the maze. That's why they call you the tapminder.

Yeah, I'm not sure yet. Okay. I'm not sure yet. So, sorry, I interrupted your very first question, which was just bring me back to the boards, guys. Yeah, anything. What's the buzz? Oh, man.

Have we thrown out a riot? The funny thing about this episode, And when I say funny, it's like my verbal tick, it was not actually funny. There are no laughs on Westworld. Was someone actually said the words Easter eggs. And also like Jeffrey Wright picked up that rock and was like, there aren't that many stars in Orion, like get your head out of your ass, which was sort of like shots at all of the internet.

But I know that they made this like however long ago. Was there anything coming out of this where you're like, here's a new theory that I have? I don't think Arnold is dead I think he just was like This is awesome Why would I leave this place Like you're gonna you know we're obviously we need money So we need to bring investors

But we've created like a kingdom here I'm just he's somewhere Deep inside Westworld Surrounded by like 400 hosts that worship him like as a king So you think he's the man at the end of the maze Yeah I think he's He's the guy that's there What would be interesting to see for sure is if he is not only there, but if he's found a way to essentially go dark.

Because one thing this episode definitely steered into was the idea that they're always being watched. I mean, Jimmy Simpson talks about it. That's an active conversation they have. And then we do see when Ed Harris requests permission, basically, to use firecrackers and they give it to him. So all of these things are being monitored, even the people on the fringes that we've seen so far. So that would be neat. By the way, this is like... Every time we talk, Andy gets more and more excited,

the more we talk about theories. I feel like maybe I should stop watching the show and then you guys just tell me about it. Like, I think I would be much more into it that way. Do you think... Last question, Jason, this is as someone who is predisposed... You are predisposed to like this. You want to like the show.

You're in, you're on the boards. But you also... I don't know if you know this about Jason, Chris. Jason watches some TV. Yeah, of course. He's seen some shows before. To me, this episode had the

hallmarks of a early first season episode where they're figuring it out. And that can be entertaining in some cases, not in others. It felt a... It didn't click for me. And I wondered if you got the same vibes and if you feel like the bigger questions

are enough to propel the show or are you worried that this is... We're going to just have a lot more of this, a lot more info dumps and Ed Harris. The thing for me is like if this is all the show is if it never gets deeper, if you never find out why people are fine

with going Ted Bundy on robots while technicians watch, like, on their iPads in some, like, control room somewhere. That's good enough for me. I mean, there's, like, it's fun for me. On a purely surface level. If you're just going to have a, like,

it's a theme park and robots are there and they're alive and you can kill them, and Anthony Hopkins is, like, a going wild god up in there. and there's going to be a lot of kind of video game illusions. All right. I'm in. Fine.

I think it could, I think that there's a level that it's not reaching because, you know, in sci-fi, you kind of want, it's like the technicians cleaning the jizz. Like there needs to be kind of like more granular detail that fills in the blanks that makes it all make sense as a wolf.

The Yuffet, Cotto Harry Dean Stanton character is an alien. Right. And that's not like all, that's not all there yet. If they can fill that stuff in by the end of the season, then I think this show could be actually really interesting. As it is, I find it really entertaining them. But it's fun. And the theorizing is, you know, is extra.

My concern about the show, and maybe it's not a concern, maybe this is not a bug but a feature, is that all the things you're talking about, the granular stuff, the sense of wonder or fun or grossness or whatever, is currently being provided by you, Jason, in your writing on the ringer, like, or on Twitter. And other people like it. Like, the blanks that I'm concerned about are being filled.

But I found your piece, you know, I went to Westworld AMA, was fucking great. But it was also like, where's that? Where is that voice? I mean, you wrote in this piece, you know, you're like, the dumbest move is to go with kids. Don't bring kids. Because let's think about it.

Every time they try to address something on the show, I feel like they open up more questions. And we can leave it at that. But like last night's episode suggested that, okay, because there are kids there when Main Street turns into a slaughterhouse at the brothel, they have to wrap it up because kids are 20 minutes out. That's right. Why are their kids there at all? Or where are the kids?

What part of the park are they in? And why does Daddy keep taking a long walk into town? Like, too many questions. Walk off my venison. I'll be back in three hours. And then they find dad. Elmode deep like a pumpkin. Jason, thank you for calling in.

We'll probably talk to you about this next week. Until then, have a good one. Awesome. Thank you. Okay, last segment, we're just going to talk a little bit, we'll talk a lot about the first episode of the third season of Black Bearer. We're going to do one per week. One per week.

I'm not sure if we're going to do Mondays or Thursdays. Yeah, but for now, we wanted to talk about nosedive, which is the first episode of the season. Nosedive. Written by Mike Scher and Rashida Jones. Well, story by Charlie Brooker, the creator of the show, script by Rashida Jones and Mike Scher. Directed by Joe Wright. Yes.

Of Atonement and Anna Krenina fame. Anna Karenina? Yeah. And also, what was it? Is that the one with the... Hannah. That was dope. That's a great movie.

Great soundtrack, Chemical Brothers. Good soundtrack, too. Eric Banna. Good Banna. Do you remember the face you gave me when I said that Eric Banna was really underrated? That's because of Munich. He is. I'm a big Banna head.

What did you think this episode? I thought it was not terrific. But it was interesting. Where are you on BDH? Let's just start there. Listen. Do you want to say what you said to me? which I think summed it up better than I could in 20 minutes.

You said that the star of the episode, Bryce Dallas, Howard, is a tough hang. It seems like it. And I don't mean to be nasty about it. I just mean, like, across the board from her work. Her performance. It's just like a lot of effort. It's a very high-energy performance, which is why they cast her in this part. Right.

It makes sense. It's actually quite good casting, I guess. But it was, it's a tough hang. I think that this episode was, in the same way that I tell people to watch the National Anthem, the first episode of Season 1 of Black Mirror first, because while it is not representative of what all the episodes are going to be, the way it makes you feel and the reaction you might have to it is as good as any in terms of a primer of what the show could do its potential. Similarly, this show, I understand why this was first, but I also feel like it made the counter

argument for what makes the show so difficult. As we talk about the show as an anthology, we have five more episodes to go and then they're going to be more next year. It's going to be a really interesting test case because when we're critical, we're not dooming the whole project. Yeah. Baked into the project like Black Mirror, there are going to be peaks and valleys,

and the show is essentially every episode figuring out what it can be and what it should be. This is one of those ones where the idea was very good, the idea of raiding people and that defining our life. Though it was on community recently. Well, I was going to get to that. Community did a similar episode in 21 minutes, the Meow Meow Beans, and I think that was actually superior.

Yeah. This episode had a great concept, very chilling, ripped from more of the present than anything else, and took it to a very ugly, but I would argue, and artful, it was very well directed, but kind of obvious end. This is one of those, this is an episode that is the kind of entertainment that, you know, I would call a roller coaster, and that when you buy the ticket, you know which direction it's going. Sure. And that's not always the most fun ride. especially if the ride itself,

which only moves in one direction down, doesn't surprise you much on the way. See, I actually thought it was a little atypical of Black Mirror episodes because of the last scene in which the character, while stripped literally of everything, you know, of modern life, has achieved a sort of enlightenment

through like just screaming, fuck you. And that typically does it happen to Black Mirror characters. They don't usually have that. that moment of catharsis. It's the, the Black Mirror that I, of the first two seasons,

would have ended at the wedding. It would have ended with her going out into the white light and being dragged out of the wedding. You're right about that. And so I felt like, I don't know whether it was Mike Sher and Rashida Jones in like a different sensibility.

And an American sensibility. Or just a need to like kind of have, uh, so who are the characters on Black Mirror, right? Like the characters are really more there to service a larger message about, I mean, the same way with Try it, something, like a larger, fabulistic kind of message. So that was a very big of a character beat.

Like Bryce Dallas Howard got her catharsis at the end of the episode. That typically isn't like what I think of that happens. Toby Kebill doesn't get catharsis at the end of entire history of you. It's emptiness. It's destruction. You know, it's not about, oh, Cherry Jones was right, the truck driver. Now I'm like going to get out of here or even be here the rest of my life, but I have this counterpart that I can just say what I'm actually

thinking. Cherry Jones is caking off the Golden Age of television. Dude, she's got there's just not enough Cherry Jones to go around. No, no, it gets mad residged. From all these different projects she's got, it's unbelievable. You're killing it today. Oh, man. I think

that it's tricky. It's essentially I see what I'm saying, right? I do. And I think it's it really highlighted the scenes of this project and how when it works it's really amazing because if the default

description of Black Mirror isn't very appealing, which is someone hectoring us for our dependence on technology. That type of entertainment usually fails. Like moralistic finger-wagging or lesson learning, or at least lesson imparting, doesn't make for good entertainment. The brilliance of an episode like Be Right Back

is it takes an idea that we live with already that we are putting so much of ourselves out into the world that it may live on without us. Right. Took that. That we're creating digital genetic code, basically. And took it forward in time to a logical conclusion, but also took it sideways into a more, into, like I talked about last week, into a ghost story or an emotional romantic story.

Grappling with grief. It wasn't just in the one direction of what would be next. And so when I watched this episode and then last night when I got a, you know, I got a lift, car service to the concert, the driver shows up and there's this rating next to them, you know. So we live in that world all right. already. Right.

The reaching for the phone, the scenes when they were, in the opening the episode is beautiful. It's beautifully composed, directed. The music was very cool when she's in the coffee shop before she gets a little coffee that she won't eat but takes the picture of. Everyone in line around her is looking at their phones. Well, that's our reality. Pushing it all up like the whatever's on a soundboard wasn't dramatically satisfying. especially because you had to

there's so much work, sorry, so much work to be done. You have to introduce a whole world, a concept, characters, and tell a story in 60 minutes. And I think that I, the best Black Mirror episodes are ones that are just slightly ajar or slightly sort of reality adjacent. Reality adjase. But this is more of

this is more like a traditional satire where everything is turned up to 11, like not just not 7, not 8, but like the volume is all the way up. So it's just like the pink, the tones. Alice Eve's performance. Yeah, like, and I thought, like, some of the technology stuff was quite good with, like, the way that the phone would immediately, like, broadcast onto the computer and, like, all this stuff was really cool.

Low-key thing about the episode, the technology and the way it was considered and used was awesome. And the way that even, like, when she basically set designs her video call with Alice Eve so that she's, like, having a wine and the top of nod and, like, has, like a... And all that stuff was great. but I actually wound up feeling more like the way you feel when you watch Westworld and you're like all I have is like questions and the questions are actually pretty annoying. I had the same about... Say how you feel about my questions. No, the questions are annoying to yourself.

You can't enjoy a show if you're like, why the fuck would they just use different robots? Like, why do you have to clean these? So my question was like, when did we, like, why would we agree to a system where ratings grant or deny access to like basic human services. I mean, my assumption was that it was like with many things, I was going to use the metaphor of the frog in the pot of water over the stove, but because Jason was just on, I'll use the metaphor of the Sims in a hot tub on Jason's PC in 1991.

They don't even notice as things get hotter. But it was actually kind of, now that I'm thinking about it, sort of interesting that it was the invert of what we kind of typically experience. Social media, like I think most people would say is a place where, A lot of the most toxic parts of us come out. So the idea of that being flipped where it's like actually social media is being used so that you can never be rude or hostile. I like that. That's interesting.

But I almost wish that it would spend more time on something like that than like, is she going to get to this wedding? Because one of the things that I find most unsettling about social media is, you know, when someone posts a selfie, a very flattering picture and then gets the hit. of validation that they were looking for and they posted it. I mean, it does... Yeah, the serotonin hit. It mimics a drug relationship because they put the picture up and it's like, was feeling blank today or like, you know, medium face, like acting like they don't know that that's a flattering picture.

And then there are, you know, immediately the comments are, you're amazing, you're so beautiful, you're whatever. And I am sub-tweeting you right now. And you did look great in those genes. But, but you know what I mean? Like that? What if I had a secret Instagram that was just like all basic shit? It's just like another lovely Sunday in Lozfeel is,

and it's just me with a giant coffee and like a go-get-em tiger sandwich or something? That was my fear that that's what I would find when I came out here. But that aspect of the internet, the performed niceties is very interesting. And the idea of that crossing over into our life. Yeah, it struck me as, and I think we might see more of this as they make more black mirrors, where they're great ideas and great talent. And, you know, it's execution-dependent, and it's going to be tricky. Yeah.

You know, not all of them are going to, not all of them are going to work. And I'd be curious that they talked about, to talk to Mike Scher, about the working relationship with Charlie Brooker, because they, on paper, anyway, I can't imagine two more talented, but also distinct comedic sensibilities. One is slashing and very cutting, and one is very, very warm and very, very healing, essentially. So I think that was an interesting mix. Although the first season of Parks is a little bit more caustic, wasn't it? I think by the first season you mean the first six episodes? Yeah. I think that that was more...

It was like black mirror, but it was like... No, but I think that they would hold that up as being like they were basically still shaking off the office. And it was... And they hadn't figured out that the key to the show wasn't to make Leslie Knope a figure of ridicule like Michael, but to make her a figure of strength and everyone else was just sort of... to know to handle her. It's interesting to note. I mean, one last thing we should say about it,

Actually, two quick things. The floor is yours. We talked last week about White Bear. Yeah. Charlie Booker did some press. Did you read the interviews that someone asked him about White Bear? So White Bear, you was your top episode. It was lower on my list.

This, he talked about how the whole episode was written and scouted, production scouted, as what it appeared to be, that it was going to be like some sort of zombie signal. And everyone just became, you know, film, you know, spectators of violence. And it was only after they scouted like a disused army base and he saw the relationship between the places that the last twist that didn't fully work from me came into his head and they crashed it into the script and changed the whole episode. Oh, so it was just supposed to be what it was until...

It was just supposed to be like this nightmare scenario where you wake up and you're being chased and that's the way the world was now. It was like a reverse, like a reverse zombie film, but a different type of zombie film. And that speaks to me like to the excitement of the show and the creativity of the the show that they were just like let's try this instead yeah it makes it conversation worthy i don't know if that made it better i will be interested in speaking of nightmare scenarios to see which a reaction to the second episode because you've watched ahead i watched yeah i can't believe anyone like binged this show there are more you know that that that's not healthy i worry about that is not it's it is still

worth mentioning even as andy and i like worked through this and like talking about it as if this is something that just comes along very often yeah it's still kind of like insane that that I'm really glad that Charlie Walker makes these. They are really cool. And when you see PlayTest, like, playtest is pretty fucking awesome.

I really want him to keep making these. I almost wish that they were, I wish we were in a world where it could be untethered from any release schedule. I know Netflix let him do 12 more a few years. I don't know if it's the release schedule as much as it's like,

you can just feel it just exploring so many different parts of like the psyche. I, you know, that. There's a bunch of, like, I'm really excited to keep talking about it. When we talked about Goliath on Amazon, we were talking about David E. Kelly, and the guy created Goliath. And we were talking about him having a particularly TV brain. He's one of those people who, to him, TV is his typewriter.

It's like the way he can work stuff out, and he's perfectly suited for it. And he's particularly well suited for broadcast network, hour-long dramas. Charlie Brooker plays television like a piano. I mean, he understands the media. He understands our desire to watch. of the nature of it, and I love that, and he does it in a particularly perverse way that is in no way in keeping with weight anyone else had done it before. Last thing, though, you had said, I think he said this off air, that you wondered if the show was coming in for a heat check just because there's no way that the quality level would be able to be sustained. The excitement was very high.

Are you getting, are you feeling like people are... I saw some snarky stuff about it, but I think that ultimately not, it's not like there are people, anybody was like Black Mirror's over. You know. There was, so the reaction to the series. There was some like, oh, social media is bad. Like, thanks, Charlie Booker, didn't know that. But, like, that's the tripwire of the show. That's amazing they've been able to avoid for this long.

I think because there are enough, there's enough variety in the episodes that it doesn't necessarily rely on one central. I mean, this is actually, goes back to what you're talking about, the Westworld. Westworld's putting a lot of literal money on one idea, you know. And Black Mirror is sort of spreading the bets across the table. It's saying, well, we're interested in this. We can do a comedy episode. Then we can do a horror episode.

And then we can do a love story. Westworld can't, you know what I mean? And it's interesting. I don't think that you can be like Black Mirror is over when Black Mirror could be absolutely anything on any given episode. I will say I miss England a little bit. And I know that much of us film there and British actors. It's a different sensibility for sure. Like watching Brace Dollard do that.

I was like, that is also one of the things that's jarring. This would have felt much different if it was Haley Atwell as this character. I think possibly. I think it's a very tricky role in performance. I think that just going back to White Bear or the location made him change his mind, the location, those like council states or whatever, the vision of England that he films is as essential to the show, I think, as the technology that they add to it in post-production. Yeah. He has this, you know, it's as if like, yeah. I watched the show, and I'm like, imagine if how to get away with murder wasn't filmed, like, or pretended to film in Philadelphia, but was in Drexel Hill.

Right. No shots. No shots at Drexel Hill. Very good friends there, but it's like, that looks like a place near where I grew up. I visited friends' houses there. I understand that world. And so to put the outlandish nature of the fiction on top of that reality helps bind it and make it palatable and understandable on an emotional level even before they start talking. I will say that playtests benefits from its setting.

Okay. Yeah. Am I going to be able to handle it? No. I actually don't know. Until Thursday for the re-up, we'll talk about laying and some other stuff. I will see you soon. And we'll do playtest next week?

Yeah. And you'll prepare me for it? As much as I can. I'll watch it with you if you need me to. Can we hold my hand? Yeah. All right. Great job for Hanski.

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