The Watch - Ep. 91: ‘The Andy Greenwald Podcast’ With Jim Adkins of Jimmy Eat World

Episode Date: October 26, 2016

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Hey guys, this is Mallory Rubin from Ringer University. This week, Ben Glicksman and I talked about Ohio State's shocking loss to Penn State, Alabama's unrivaled continued dominance, and the loaded week-nine slate, lottery-ranked teams, head in on the road. You can listen to this episode of Ringer University on iTunes or wherever you get podcasts. You're listening to the Andy Greenwald podcast. Hello, my name is Andy Greenwald. This is my podcast.

Guys, I'm so excited about today's show. I had the opportunity to sit down with a guy I've now been interviewing for 14. years, which is a little bit crazy. Jim Adkins. Jim is the lead singer, songwriter, guitarist for the terrific Arizona-based band Jimmy Eat World. Jim Eat World just released their ninth album, Integrity Blues, last week. It's a really remarkable album, both for the quality of songwriting and also for the degree of departure it is from previous releases. The band was very forthright about how they wanted to step outside of the comfort zone, step outside of their bubble, as Jim put it in our talk. They worked with a producer they'd never worked with before. They worked in a way they'd

never worked before and the songs really bear that out both lyrically and musically. I first started interviewing Jim when I wrote a book about emo 14 years ago, travel on a tour bus with him and the rest of the band in 2002 right when the middle, they're still their biggest hit, was breaking and it seemed like they were part of a larger wave of emo bands or I don't know what you want to call them melodic emotional bands, whatever, rock bands. They used to make those. And I've talked to him a few times since. This was by far the most open he's ever been. He's clearly been through some stuff and is processing stuff and doing it in a really remarkably healthy way. So we ended up having what I thought was a pretty intense conversation,

one that I really appreciated about making changes as an adult, growing into a career in music, being artistic, and like he said before, stepping outside the comfort zone. So, Plus, a couple other things, too, as you'll hear, about the formation of the band and how it all kind of seemed like almost an accident until it became a career spanning over 20 years. So without further ado, let's get into it. Oh, and by the way, I made a playlist of all my favorite Jimmy World songs that you can find on Spotify. I'll tweet it, and you can find it. I'm on Spotify as Andy Greenwald.

So let's get into it. This is my conversation with Jim Adkins from Jimmy E. World. Hello, my name is Andy Greenwald. Welcome to my podcast. It's a big radio podcast network. I'm very excited today. I'm joined here on the couch. This feels very formal, like a talk show, with the singer, guitarist, songwriter of one of my all-time favorite bands. Jim Adkins, welcome. Thank you very much. It's very important to have you here today. We're recording in late October.

We have the faces of presidential candidates behind us. And I have to ask, does Hillary have a shot at Arizona? I think Arizona might be in play. Is Arizona in play? I think so. What do you feel? I know what knows, man. It's kind of, I definitely got to. I definitely got a lot. to check my bubble. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because like, that's, that's one thing I've more and more so started to do is check my bubble. I have lots of different kinds of, you know, like the music community, the arts community, the people that I'm bros with.

Your bro community. My bros, my broughmunity. Oh, that's good. My brodeo. You can keep going. I'm trying to cut back. I'm trying to cut back. Understand.

But like, you know, that's definitely, shocker, that leans liberal. A little bit. You know, but, you know, I have a lot of buddies who are conservative. I don't know, it's anybody's game. The Arizona Republic hasn't endorsed a Democrat for the presidency, I don't think, ever,

or maybe in like over 100 years. And they came out and they endorsed Hillary, so. That has to mean something. outside of my bubble that there's a shot. Well, I want to talk about your bubble. I want to talk about you leaving your bubble, but we should probably first talk about your record. Ninth Jimmy World Record, Integrity Blues came out.

Last week, congratulations. Thanks, man. Terrific record. Can you believe it? Nine records. Well, it's not just that I can't believe it. It's that I feel like I've seen you quoted a few times already talking about this record saying,

the fundamental question of this record wasn't necessarily where we're going to record it, who we're going to record it with. Why would we even do it? Like what does it mean to have a ninth record, which is not a pause you would take in to consider before into the previous eight? Yeah. You know, there's definitely a level of self-awareness

with us as people and with us as a band that feels new. You know what I mean? It's like, it's beyond the nuts and bolts of it all. It's like what's really behind it? Yeah, I mean, we can go into the studio and bust something out, why?

Like what's, do we have an answer for that? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, and, and, you know, with the songwriting, with the music itself, it's like, you know, there's the context of it, like your story, your setting, your scene,

and the adversity that's presented in that. But what the song's really about is what's behind that, you know? Behind it in terms of the emotional, whatever that's fueling the song? Yeah, yeah. What's really behind that? You know, like in the beginning, when we started to, when we were just getting off of the road for the last album.

For damage. And for doing, like, we hit it pretty hard for damage, and we then did a run of, like, anniversary gigs for the futures album, where we'd play that, you know, as an album. and then extra stuff later on, which was really fun. But, you know, I started to shift gears into writing on that, and I noticed myself getting stuck because it was like, just instantly see through, like, the whining.

You know, it's like, okay, so... You mean, like, you were writing things, and you were like, this is not, this is just whining, this isn't what I wanted. Yeah, well, you'd explore something into a point and then just see, like, the answer to it. And like, this is not, this just sounds like complaining. So like you'd be asking a question, a rhetorical question, an artistic question in the song lyrically.

And you'd realize it wasn't actually. You get hung up on the details of it rather than like what's behind it. And it took me a minute to figure out like, well, that's what I should write about? It's like you're, what's really the solution here? You know, instead of exploring the problem, what's really the solution? Like you get into argument with somebody. And there's this intense, like, desire to be right. Do you really want to be right?

Or do you want the real issues to be resolved? You know, you can get caught up so much in like that part of it that you don't realize that's not what you really want here. It's the battle versus the war. Yeah. Which is a little bit of an antagonistic way to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, and in this, just to give context to this, do you still primarily write lyrics first?

So are you writing these down these ideas? Never. You never do lyrics first. Never. always music first. Well, I mean, like, I'm always writing. And what I would do is, like, maybe go back and kind of just hunt down, hunt down random things that I could draw from. Yeah. But it's never, it's always music first. So was there, is there an example of a song that ended up on the record that felt like, was there a moment that was a breakthrough?

Because somewhere in the middle of this timeline, which we're getting muddied a little bit already, but because mostly we're just going to talk politics and heirloom varietals later, as you mentioned. Yeah, yeah. Don't get me started. There's one thing you care mostly about. You blow the entire time on heirloom varietals. Human emotions are one thing, but tomatoes, is that also in this break that you took from the road and from the band, you also did some solo shows. Yeah. And so at what point during this process, was it just like one extended period of writing or doodling where you realized that you were up against this?

Or was there a specific breakthrough of a song? Or was it part of this process of dredging up the futures material going out on the road that sort of led to a larger? Yeah, you know, it all sort of unfolded kind of at the same time. Like, we were winding down touring and we were beginning to like work on just new stuff, you know, getting together, jamming, you know, and then, you know, that would reach a point and then we'd move on to the next thing. We weren't really finishing anything. And then it just came to the, I came to the realization like that, you know, that.

that, well, I put forth to the guy as an idea about, like, well, maybe we should just take a break, you know. I can feel the nervousness behind that question even a year or two later as you're asking. Well, no, it's just sort of like, it's kind of, we've never done anything like that. Yeah. And it's always been going back into the cycle. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think that it was just something we really needed to do. You know, there's the, it's really, it's really fascinating how this is all ended up because, like, you know, there's your, your, everything is reinforced itself as it's gone on, all these actions, like slowly kind of opening yourself up to moving outside your bubble.

Mm-hmm. And being rewarded by experiencing things that were beyond your expectations. You know what I mean? And then that's like, oh, cool. I didn't expect to find myself here. And then that sort of gives you encouragement to take another step. And that gives you encouragement to take another step. And some of those things are rewarding, you know, less rewarding than others.

But like the general trajectory is like if you're willing to explore ideas, if you're willing to check your ego and say that, you know, maybe what my idea for what I need is, you know, limited. Or a construction of what you've already known. Yeah, yeah, exactly. When you're willing to check that and explore something that is unfamiliar or new or possibly difficult or scary, it's always, always, always a reward. As someone who just, you know, moved out of the same place he's lived for 17 years, I've only recently realized how much the desire we all have for comfort or familiarity is as much a crutch as it is of benefit and stepping outside of it.

But it gets harder, I think, as we get older to do that. And it's particularly interesting to hear you talk about this because, you know, a lot of when Jimmy World First gained fame and attention and devotion was because you were such a brilliant chronicler of a certain set of younger emotions, I think, you know, where younger people are afraid of on the precipice, afraid of what they're going to do next, of what's possible in their life. and we equate that feeling often with being like 17, 18, 20, 22. I think as we get older, it gets harder to go back out on the ledge. Yeah, I would, yeah, I mean, I would categorize, like, our earlier stuff as being focused more on, like, the idea of discovery. And that being, like, an exciting thing. Yeah, a little bit scary, but exciting. A little bit scary.

And then there is something that there is a flip that kind of switches as you get older and you have experience. and those things aren't so scary. What do you do? Yeah. But the thing is, the, the truth is that, that discovery is still there waiting for you. You're just not willing to go get it. You know, you know what I mean? You've taken yourself out of the game.

Yeah, I mean, there's something, like you were saying, like, there's something to be said for, like, you know, when you're involved in a creative endeavor, or, you know, you build a skill. or you develop a competency with a craft. You have strengths, and that's valuable. But to just take the path that exploits those strengths all the time, you don't get new strengths. There's no chance for growth in that. I think one of the things that people look at as an advantage of adulthood is that you can create an atmosphere

where you can fail less. Like when you're a kid and you're in gym class You're not good at shooting basketball or playing dodgeball. I'm not projecting here. I just maybe someone isn't good at those things. The older you get, you don't have to do it anymore. And the older you get, you don't have to do math or whatever. When you're a kid, you play every sport depending on what's in season.

And it doesn't matter if you're, you know, like you'll just do anything. And then, right, but if you slowly winnow things away, the chance of failure, if you equate it with, or if you equate trying things with the risk of failure and you remove yourself from that possibility, I think you can get a little stunted. Although I understand why that's appealing. As someone who definitely has not played dodgeball or sports in a long time. I think you can fail any time, no matter how good you are at something. I think it would the real, you know, I don't think you can view, it's better to view everything as just data. Okay.

Like there's no such thing as failure. There's positive and negative outcomes. And that informs the direction of your effort. This is very 538. Now we're back on the election. Very Nate Silver. That's good. No, but, you know what I mean?

Like, it's like, okay, so I tried this, it didn't work, or I tried this and it worked out, or I tried this, and it sort of like, hmm, that raised new questions. That directs like what you do next. It doesn't mean that you failed. So just to anchor the conversation and the specifics of the record making process,

was there a moment you took a year off, basically from the band? You did some solo shows and performing. Yeah, which was terrifying. despite having been a performer now, and being on stage for people for a very long time. I have a big respect for people who just get out there and solo bust it.

And you solo busted it. And stand-up, too. I have a great respect for that to you, because that's even more gnarly. Stand-up is... You got nothing. Existentially terrified. It sucks.

It's kind on you. And part of the performance is handling that, like knowing it's going to suck and you're going to die and then rolling with it. Like with the group, with the band, it's like, yeah, you're listening. to whether people are doing and you're responding to that by it and you make choices and that kind of like is part of the flow of what's happening but when

it's just you like you are responsible for driving and also like you're responsible for getting the momentum happening but you're also responsible for you know every decision in that whole thing and it's liberating because you can start and stop that on a done you can like you know there's but it's also but it's also terrifying because you have nothing to hide behind you know like there is always some super drunk dude like close to the stage who thinks like he's the only person at the gig and like I'll be playing something that maybe like ah trying to get the clap going I want no one else

is joining him I want to realize this moment it's just like and and I want to take this moment to apologize for that for being that guy for my behavior the other night. No, that's okay, dude. Everyone takes their turn, being the guy trying to get the clap going. You played if you don't don't, and I got kind of emotional. But do go on, yeah. And so, like, if you're by yourself, what you know, what you can do is, like,

I'll get, like, even quieter. This is a comedian technique. This is it. So that, like, maybe it sinks in, he's the only person clapping. Or, like, his buddy would be like, dude. But, like, but, I mean, that's the kind of thing that you can do. But you're in control. You have to be really a lot, you know, playing solo is like you got to be in tune with all that.

Did you, despite nerves at the beginning, did you come to enjoy that? Was that fun by the end, having that level of control and spotlight? Oh, yeah. Definitely. You know, it's a completely different thing, and it was really exciting, but different. And keeping with the theme of difference, was there a moment then in your writing when you felt a kind of a breakthrough? Just in terms of the perspective, in terms of the voice, in terms of channeling, basically, not even channeling, breaking through that wall of conflict and getting to a deeper place. Because there are specific songs that I'm excited to talk to you about on the album that absolutely reflect what you've already been talking about.

But I was wondering if just in the process, if there was one moment or if it was more of a gradual moment as the buildup to the new album actually started to. I think it was gradual. You know, just like taking small steps and being encouraged by that and then taking more steps and then taking more steps. And after a while, you end up in a place where it's like, okay, let's go. let's get into it you know like it's kind of it's you see your path like I think songwriting is kind of like you know you ask your there's something that happens and you don't know exactly why it happens but you you have a a response that sticks with you and you know when you're developing that into when you're trying to turn that

into like an art piece you have to ask yourself questions about that And that leads to answers which you in turn ask more questions about, you know, and it could be going this way, it could be going that way. After a while, you've built this big tree of information and, like, you know, writing a song is just kind of like picking your line on how you want to fall out of the tree. Like that. But how, you know, I think in all creative enterprises, particularly writing, no matter what you're writing, it's a balance between the craft, respecting the craft, there's a work aspect to it. I mean, it is your job on one level. It took me a long time to get to that, like, acceptance. Like, this is what I do.

It is what I'm going to break it to you now. This is now you have a career. This is what you do. Yeah. But then the flip side of that is this idea of tapping into the unconscious, right? That you kind of can't control and it comes to you in the moment. And managing, I think, that those two different tracks is the key to any artistic endeavor, especially one that's professionalized.

Did you find, how do you do that? And did you find yourself very more one way, than the other in this process, in this particular process. Man, you know, there's no rules, and I think it's important not to set rules because then you're limiting, you know? Yeah. But generally what happens, like, you know,

sometimes it just happens all at once. It's like, I won't work on music unless I have an idea at the same time as far as like what a melody could be, like for vocals, for like, I might not have lyrics right away, but like melody, phrase. It has to be coming along with a piece of music. Otherwise, I'll just move on to something else.

Okay. And sometimes, like, real lyrics come at the same time. And within, like, a day, songs done. Other times, like, it's a year and a half of... ...struggling against it, yeah. And, you know, God, I wish I knew what the trick was to unlock in that. But, you know, you just try different things, you know. It's like, okay.

I'm going to explore absolutely everything about this. I'm going to write like 20 pages of every aspect of this idea, this theme. Like, what am I talking about? What could happen? What would the possibility? Like build a giant tree with it. And then like throw that on the fire and then just say 10 minutes I got, go. Just write, whatever.

And then that's the song. So it could happen any combination or mixture. As long as it happens. As long as it happens, dude. That's something matters. End zone. Part of the process of shaking things up was working with a different producer, somebody you'd never worked with before. Justin Meldell Johnson, did I say it, Meldell?

Meldell? Sure. J.M.J. Yeah, I mean, people messed up his name so much now. I don't think he'd care. How badly did I mess it up? No, that's fine. It was acceptable.

It was within the realm of... Yeah, yeah, totally. Just calm JMJ. He is a musician himself. He played with Beck for many years and a bunch of other bands. He worked with Nine Inch Nails. He worked with Tegan and Sarah. He's worked with a lot of different acts.

I had the privilege of standing next to him at your show at the Rocksies other night, which was awesome. I highly recommend. If you ever have the chance to stand next to the producer of an album when the band is playing new songs from the album, I highly recommend it. He was so geeked. He was so pumped up, which was very nice. It seemed like he brought a different skill set or different energy to what you were doing and seemed to encourage different sounds, because there are certainly songs. because there are certainly songs on this record that take the band in places they haven't been before.

Pass the Baby takes you in five or six different directions, I think, within the course of one song. What was that relationship like and how crucial was it to making a kind of album that you wanted to make as the ninth album? Well, now that it wouldn't exist without him, really. I think how that came together is... is a, we'd always set an idea,

like a rough timeline of about a year that we would take off without even talking to each other about the band. And, uh... Did you have safe words? Just to avoid? No, I mean, it's not, none of this, none of this is based out of like,

everything was put in place to protect the band. Right, and everyone was on board. Yeah, it wasn't like, I didn't go out and do solo material because I have, like, I think that's going to replace Jimmy E. But like Zach didn't come up behind you sometimes, just like, Hey dude, I got a good beat for that. Just a little casual drumming to remind you what he's up to.

Hey man, you know, Periddle pedal, a little type, right, right, so no. No. Okay. No. But, you know, so we always knew that there would be a rough time when we get back together. And when we did, you know, just that, we felt like that time away from each other had really worked.

It's like, oh yeah, I mean, Zach. drummer taught himself logic and recorded stuff on his own with his wife did did music logic not like not like the no the the software software yes he finally he was so illogical for years so illogical he finally taught himself logic no no but I mean everyone just dug deeper into themselves and in just you know lived life and we all found that was rewarding you know I think that reinforced what I've been talking about of like when you're when you step out um you you know you don't always get you know the the the the size and the color of what you ordered but you get something that you need you know and uh you know just just kind of

I think just as a group we decided to roll with that and we kind of okay well what else could we do here because we know what we're going to get if we do the same thing we know we could of course we could

like you know save a bunch of money cut the record ourselves get somebody who has better chops than us to mix it and you know call that a record and I don't doubt that we wouldn't get something

that we were proud of you know we'd put effort into it and we'd make something we'd feel great about it but I mean, we know how to do that. Like, how can we approach this with the opportunity to grow? Because I think that's what, you know, what are you doing if you're not trying to grow? Like, what's the point of any of this, really? You know, if you're just, like, executing based on your strengths.

Like, how's that interesting to anybody? Well, so I can see why you were eager to go outside of the comfort zone for, professional, musical, artistic reasons. Why do you feel that you were ready in this moment for personal reasons? What put you in this place? Because we're talking about the desire to go out of the bubble. Why now in particular? Why did you feel ready for that?

You know, I can't put into... There wasn't anything that's like one particular thing. You know? I think it's like, you know, taking a small step and just feeling what comes in from that and then you know taking another one and and feeling what comes in with that personally not just artistically yeah I mean that that that the personal thing is it mirrors the artistic thing exactly okay you know like you know I quit drinking three years

ago okay and that was a big that was a that was a big sort of thing Yeah. You know, it's kind of, you know, it feels great. You know, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah. I can, I can do so much more. You know, it's like, oh, cool. So it's just like, you know, these things that, like, you have,

when you're outside of the perception of yourself, like, that's when you're on the right track. Yeah, when you feel like, when you're slightly questioning, like, is this me? Then you're doing the right thing. Or is this what's even possible for me? Yeah. this is...

Yeah. You know. It's... It was interesting to think because there's a... There's songs on the new record that takes such a, I think, very beautiful view of humanity.

It's very generous. There's a generosity to a lot of these songs. You know, I was, of course, listening back to all the records of years that I love. And in many of them, there is a lot of... Lyrically, there's a lot of self-investigation,

self... flagellation even sometimes. I was thinking about that line on let it happen where you refer yourself as the evil one. Right, right. And there's more second person, I feel like on the new record, and particularly a song like You Are Free, dovetails exactly with what we were talking about with the very beginning in terms of like, do you want to win this argument or do you want to just figure out and be right? This idea of just telling someone who you were clearly in some sort of conflict with that they're free for whatever that means for them. You know, you're not even, it's past the point of dictating the terms, which I think is a really, beautiful sentiment and suggests a very kind of there's a real maturity to that songwriting yeah you know I mean like you in that in that regard like it can be

it's not limited to the second person at all you know I think like your the limitations of they're there they're in your own they're your own making yeah you know and that's the same with me is the same like, you know, what's what's the truth behind this, this argument? You know, it's, it's that you, when it comes down to it, you're fighting for the same thing. It's just your ego is getting in the way of... To express yourself and to find a kind of happiness or peace. Yeah.

You know, even from the stage the other night at the Rocks, I think you mentioned it when you were introducing, there's a song called The Middle. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It did pretty well a couple years ago. Yeah, we played it out a couple times. Yeah, once or twice. And you talked about it as in terms of, you know, this fight we have and this battle over external validation versus self-validation. And it struck me that a lot of the language that we're using, even just talking now, I hope you to mind me saying this, it's like language that I learned in therapy that has helped me a lot.

Yeah, yeah, I know. And I sort of love the fact that for myself personally as a fan of the band, that basically the songs in many ways went from, if you go back to the band, if you go back to the band, to believe American, finding therapy or solace or companionship in other songs and music and the celebratory thing that you're doing to this more mature way of finding therapy and therapy, you know, and thinking about things in a more considered sense. Is that a fair line to draw? Sure. Sure. Yeah, yeah. No, it's, you know, that's funny. I mean, I guess that part of me was always lurking. Yeah. But now it's like... It's still the same person I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. No, but it's so true.

It's like, that's, you know, there's that nugget that's always kind of there. But now it's, it's just like, oh, maybe that was, maybe that was my subconscious kind of like, dude, dude, dude, down here. Just trying to smack you, yeah. But, but or when it suggested that there was a questioning and there was a curiosity about that then, it just didn't find the right receptacle or it didn't sync up with the right source. Not that. I was too busy partying, dude. You're having too much fun. Yeah.

But, so, you know, we first sat down to do an interview 14 years ago, which is disturbing. And he's not a choice, dude. No, I know. And so that was, like, on a tour bus when you guys were touring with, that was with Blinken Green Day. Yeah, that pop disaster. Pop disaster tour. So, 2002. The middle is breaking big.

and you guys had already been through quite a roller coaster with the first record and then clarity and then suddenly this was all happening and you guys were opening this big tour on this big bus. And I remember having, A, a great time, B, having really good conversations, but I also remember feeling like there was kind of a wall that I didn't feel comfortable even trying to scale in that these songs that we were talking about objectively

were incredibly meaningful to me and to many other people. had a, there was a wrenching emotionality to them, but that wasn't a place you wanted to go in talking about them. There was a, there was a lot of, like, which I don't think was really passing the buck, but there was a lot of, you know, these songs could be about anyone. I think at some level you were protecting the audience because you were saying, I don't want to say what these songs are about because they mean so much to other people. Yeah, in part, I mean, that's kind of how I've always rolled.

Mm-hmm. Because I always felt that, like, what makes music special has nothing to do with me. You know, it's all about, like, a listener taking the time to invest themselves, to sit with the work and build their own associations with it, you know? Like, then it means, then it's yours. And no one can take that away from you, you know? So I felt like, in part, in part because of that, like, art is going to mean something. It only means something unless you make it mean something for yourself. Right.

In a way, you're the conduit. You're taking this raw material, you're creating something, and then it has a life after that. Yeah. And that in part is like how I, you know, that's me as a music fan. Like I realize that about what makes music special for me is what I'm deciding it means and what I'm deciding it is for me. But in second, man, like, I got high bottom problems.

Really? Yeah. Really. Okay, so this girl you went out with in college, it didn't pan out. Like, you're gonna say that's, you're gonna wave that flag around, like it's a big deal. You'll learn something about dating. Yeah. That's important.

Or, you know what I mean? Like, I felt like just an asshole, like, saying that, like, okay. Here's this song. There's also might be a perspective problem then, because if you take a song like clarity or something, the song, which to me is one of the most emotional songs that I can think of rock songs, and I'm not saying emo in that case.

It's a purely emotional song to me. And that means something to me, and I can connect with the feeling behind it. And so if you were to tie it to whatever it happened in your past, whatever college, maybe it was just like a bad, month-long relationship that went sour. That sort of changes that relationship, right? it almost brings it down off the mountaintop of pure feeling and becomes specifically a thing.

I totally get it. I totally get why people want to know more about something that they're curious. You know, they're interested in this, they want to get closer to it, they want to know more about it. Totally get it. I just think that the truth is so boring. Well, not to you, but you think it's boring to others. Like telling someone about your dream. You read like, you read like the relationship dynamics in Thomas Hardy novels and

it's right on with what's happening in current, you know what I mean like it's nothing new. I'll go on Hardy. We could just talk, we could just go pure 18th century. There's nothing, you know, like the weakness is doubly weak by being new. Right. Like that's, that's, you know, that's, of course, like, duh, like that's, I don't know. I just feel like my experience is important to me and it means something to me. But it's not any more important than what somebody else is bringing. to the table.

Has that allowed you to keep these songs fresh artistically as well? Because I saw you guys play clarity on the 10-year anniversary of it. I'm kicking myself that I missed you guys playing futures on the anniversary of that. But even when I saw you the other night, when you were playing songs that are now 17 years old, 12 years old, you certainly did not seem to have any performative distance from them. You were able to tap into whatever passion you had for the material then. now, did making them their own thing and keeping them a little bit separate from your own

experience help you do that? Or did the act of going out and playing them a decade later and seeing the connection and seeing how vibrant that was, does that inform how you play them still? That's more about just wiping your expectations before you go on stage. And letting it unfold and trying to like connect and feed off of what's happening. That's why I'm in the front clapping like that. I'm there to help you. You don't realize that. Encouragement. That's what I do. That's what I bring.

No, I mean, like, because then it's a unique experience. I've done this a million times, but, like, it's a unique experience now. Like, you just try to get, you just try to be present and, and appreciate what's happening. One other question that takes us back to the tour bus rolling through Texas. Back to the bus. Back to the bus, man. It always goes back there. I was not in any way ready to even ask about or think about this, but I believe the timing works out,

that that was the year that your first child was born around that. Yeah. And I was not even, I now have a child, so now I think I get a lot more of it. I can't fathom what a crazy time that must have been for you because you had a child and you have everything that you had been working towards to some degree was taking off. I mean, you had a hit record, you had a hit song, which wasn't always the end goal, I know, but it's basically this idea of it's all happening and it's all happening at once.

looking back on that time now, how do you even look at it? How were you processing it? How do you feel about what that time meant to you? Which was more improbable? It's all like, I don't know, I just kind of like, what was I doing? What was I doing? I was just taking it all in and trying to like do the best I could with it all. That's so healthy.

That's such a healthy answer. It didn't sink in until much, much later on, like, just what a big deal. Bleed American turned into right because you were in the middle of the maelstrom yeah You know like I didn't take any of it really seriously didn't appreciate any of it for for for for what it was at the time like And I think that was kind of a self-defense mechanism right you know because it's we knew it's a fragile thing And we've always felt like we were getting away with something doing this thing at all yeah you know like Like, do you know how, did we talk about like how we became, how we got started at all? No.

I mean, back then did we talk about it? Probably. I didn't really look. I didn't go over my notes. Like, we. I mean, as a band. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, like the, we were a band for eight months. Mm-hmm. And, you know, my roommate, you know, you know, But back then, like, you know, this is like I was 18, we were 18 and 19. And my college roommate at the time was like, I want to be a label. I'll put out your record. Cool. Sweet, dude, we're going to have a record, you know?

And another buddy of mine was like, hey, dude, let's be promoters. This is unbelievable. Cool. I don't think I realized this. Yeah, I mean, because it was like awesome. This is like reverse engineering a career. Let's be let's put on shows dude. Let's like you know there's a really crappy spot we can have punk bands come and play Yeah let's do it. So it was like cool. Let's do it and

We we we listed ourselves in maximum rock and roll They had like a There was like looking for a supplementative Publication called book your own fucking life. Yeah, that was like so genius that was like so genius at the time you know this is this is pre internet kids and you know but basically it was like state by state it was like you could write in and list yourself as like a resource for touring bands for you know promoters like zines food spots whatever and so he said we listed ourselves in there and we we listed ourselves in there and we

That was also at the time that the first like seven-inch came out and got like a really good review in maximum rock and roll. Yeah. Which was like, oh dude, that was like playing Saturday Night Live back then. You made it. You're done. This is got an actual record and it got reviewed. Like this is nuts.

And so Christie Front Drive from Denver, they were doing their first like, kind of run of gigs and they had a support slot for Sensefield in LA and they needed help getting down to LA and so they they didn't know anybody they just like flipped through the book your own life and called us I didn't I thought you knew those guys this how I knew this how we met so they they called us and we're like dude we need help with a gig here's here's like five LPs of our of our of what we do yeah and it was and we're like this is awesome yeah dude totally So we set up possibly the worst show for them with like seven bands.

And, you know, because, like, we didn't know what we're doing. And my buddy was like, you know, we got this record label. Would you want to do a split with Jimmy Eat World? So without even hearing us, they said, yeah, sure, cool. Because, like, someone wanting to put out your stuff back then was a big deal. Yeah. To put up that money in release. Especially from somewhere else that wasn't from your town.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was a big deal doing split records. with bands in different areas. It's a huge way that you've got to, you know, because when you're in their town, like, you play with them, and when they're in your town, you play with them. I don't think people realize how regional and factional music was to get from one region to another was enormous.

Oh, yeah, totally. There was no internet to link everything into one national scene. Yeah, totally. So without even hearing us, they agreed to that, and they kept going on tour, they opened up for Sensefield, and Lauren Israel, who at the time was a scout for Craig Aronson at Capitol.

Yeah. Like saw them. It was like, you guys are great. What else do you have out? They said, well, we're doing the split record with Jimmy Eat World, this band from Arizona. So he hunted down our seven inch from, I want to say Toxic Ranch, which was a distro in Tucson, got the seven inch, played it for Craig at Capitol. Craig dug it.

And then like eight months into being a band, we had some dude from Capitol at our local gig. Yeah, this is saying, saying like, let's talk. It should always be that easy. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's just insane. And so, you know, we thought getting back to my original place that we went on this tangent, it was like, we felt like we were always getting away with something by the fact we're doing any of this. Like, at the worst, we'll have some funny stories about going to L.A. But I remember this.

I remember that. I do remember the nature of that story. And I remember also that attitude. It's almost like these zealig-like, you stumbled into a career. But it's also undeniable that at some point, you know, I think I really like Static Prevails, but I like clarity a lot more. And I think that there's a moment, there's something on that album that really feels like a band and a songwriter that is just like, oh, I can do this or I could do this. And one of the joys that record for me is that feeling of exploration and also burgeoning confidence. You know, there are big risks on that record sonically and things that, you know, from the beginning.

from starting the record that way to ending it with Goodbye Sky Harbor. I mean, that is not, that's not a lucky break at that point. When we did Static Prevails, like for us and for Mark Trombino, producer, engineer, like, tambourine was a step outside the box. This is what I'm saying, right. But you're like, oh man, you're playing tambourine? Like, that's so, like, that's not punk. But static prevails, what are your set?

CETIC prevails is 97. We made that in 95. It came out in 96. 36. Yeah. Clarity comes out in 99, but you made it 98, right? Yeah. That's not very long.

That's not a very long time to suddenly go from tambourines to multi-track vocal harmonies. We got really into recording ourselves. Like I had a four-track, you know, I would record like a cassette format four-track that I would record like any crappy band that was buddies with. Was this purely inspired by Bob Pollard? Because that's why I had a four-track. No, no, I didn't get a GVU until later. But it was just like, yeah, this is cool.

I want to do that. and I just, you know, started writing more, like, with the idea of multi-track as like a way to, like where production kind of informs the writing. Right. And, you know, just over time, as a band, we started amassing more and more crappy recording gear. And just that idea of using production as,

like, using production as a writing tool. Like, it just developed and developed and developed. and, you know, using, utilizing computers, and the space that that opened up was kind of developing and developing and developing. Like, Stack Prevails was all two inch analog. Clarity was like, we did drums to two inch,

and then Pro Tools was chasing that. Yeah. So it was like, you know, a little bit of, you know, we had like, what we felt was like the best we can get out of analog, but then the options that opened up with digital. And so that just was like, okay.

And plus, like, dude, we don't know if we're ever going to get a chance to make a record like this again. Let's rent timpani today. Let's do it, yeah. That's a good attitude to have in that circumstance. No, totally. In a way, Integrity Blues is, like, coming back to that, like, you know,

all in, no plan B. Yeah. Let's do it. We're doing it. Yeah. One of the things I think people still respond to about Lead American in particular is that, I think I alluded to it earlier,

but there's just such like a full-throated joy about music. You know, obviously when you have Davy come on and sing with you, when you reference Jesus and Mary Chain and other acts in it, the chorus of sweetness about, you know, basically about like, let's share this moment. I mean, it's an incredible, for me, like those songs and maybe work as well. They're like my platonic ideal of what a rock song should be. Because it's basically about like, let's get in a car, let's go where we're going.

We don't know where we're going. Sing it back to me. Like it's very, very, it's almost primal in the way it channels into it. You have made your ninth record. It is a career. There's no question at this point. I'm sorry to drop that bomb on you. Do you still feel that joy, that enthusiasm, that excitement about rock and roll?

Even more so. Really? Yeah. As time goes on, it's easier and easier to appreciate even the smallest things that kind of comes back in our favor. You know? Because it ends. You think about that. It ends.

Well, yeah, man. And like the first thing, in 95, our first manager, like, gave me the Don Passman's book on audio tape. And like, the first thing he says is, like, your career is finite. Let me say that again. Your career is finite. Yeah. And, like, that really puts it in.

If you breathe that in and accept it, like, it means, you know, you know, it means, you know, know, I take it as, like, dude, you get to play music. There's a big difference between working hard and being real busy. And if you think you're working hard, take another look at what you're doing and seeing if you're, are you just really busy or are you working hard? Yeah. And it's like, oh, okay, I guess I'm just really busy. You know, like, enjoy this.

Like what? Really? You're going to get upset about playing music? You're playing music. You know, like, I see, it's easy. I don't know. Maybe that's just one of those things that kind of comes with, like, doing it a long time and what I said before about the self-awareness

that I feel is present in what we're doing now. But, like, we truly are getting away with something. Well, you said that your career 20 years ago, but now it's a different... No, no, it's... We're still getting away with it. I mean, to be a rock band in 2016 and, you know, have people come to the shows, it's... There are many.

It's not lost on me. it's something that we appreciate and it's like you know I never expected it none of us ever did you know it's like just amazing you're out of your bubble you've done this new record you're out there how are I just want to end it on this like how are you you seem good but how are you I'm great I don't think I've ever been better that's good for real like you know it's it's it's a I mean yeah There's things. Everyone's got things. A couple things.

A couple things. People have some more things than others, but like it's, the darker, the place you find yourself in, it's really just an opportunity for growth. And that's true. Even though it's hard to remember that sometimes. It's really hard, it's really hard when you're on the other side of that to view it as that. But it's true, you know. and you know that's just how I look at everything now and it's I'm constantly rewarded

there's constantly a reward for for approaching life in that that way and and you know not a lot gets to me now I think that's amazing I think that has a benefit of both being inspiring and being true so thank you Jim for taking the time to talk to me I hope we don't wait another decade to do it let's let's chat again soon let's chat again soon okay Thank you. Yeah, awesome.