The Watch - Ep. 92: 'The League,' 'Atlanta,' and 'Westworld' Re-Up With Jason Mantzoukas

Episode Date: October 27, 2016

Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald are joined by Jason Mantzoukas to discuss improvisation in 'The League,' slam poetry on 'Atlanta' (24:48), the new Beach Slang album (31:20), and the slow burn of 'Westworld' (37:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio Happy Juneteen. It's Andy Greenwald! There's someone else in the studio too. There is, man. Today's a very exciting day. I know, special guest day. Are we going to just let it? You should do it. We're joined by a comedic actor. Accomplished screenwriter. Oh yeah. A jack of all trades. In this town and beyond. Jason Manzukas, welcome. How are you gentlemen? We're doing good, man. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here in this weird attic of a studio. Thank you for noticing that. We did that for you. Lots of stuffed animals strewn around the floor. That's just, and that's just Andy's stuff. Like open trunks of clothes? That's just to make me comfortable.

A couple things. A couple house cleaning things before we get into. We're going to talk about Atlanta like we always do. Yeah, this is basically a regular episode of The Watch just with Jason. And then Jason will slowly kill us individually and take over the show. Boom. A couple points to make. Next Monday, The Watch.

Your host, Jason Manzukas, going forward. Trying to just parse the Baransky thing. Just to, we can finally get to that, too, if you like. I'd like to pull the curtain back a little just to say that, you know, ever since I went Hollywood, I feel like the tenor of the show's changed a little bit. And Chris and I were at the HBO after party. You're eating like a kale salad right now, a quinoa and kale salad. I am 90.

Just aggressively juicing. You said earlier you want to cleanse. That's word of warning, that's not chia pudding. We were at this HBO after-party for the Emmys, and we were walking around, and Chris and I were holding hands because we were nervous. Of course. Hollywood's most adorable couple. We saw a beard visit we recognized. We saw you there, and we said to each other, what is our play here to talk to a gentleman whom we admire very much, whom we would love to speak to, who we would be thrilled to have any interaction with at all, and you just snuck right up on us.

It was so nice. Oh, guys, I mean, and I'll say for Ted. everybody what I told you that night. I'm a huge fan. I've been a huge fan since the previous iteration of the podcast. This guy has the second funniest video on all of YouTube. I agree. I agree. It was the first one, the one with the dog I was telling you about. No, the first one is still the eastbound and down outtakes slash the plums video. Yeah. But the best of Rafi, best of Rafi, six minute mega-mix. Oh, yeah. It's also like the most disturbing thing for a coworker to hear you watching with no context. Oh, yeah. And it is also a very disturbing thing

to have said all of those lines in reality. Did you not have headphones on when you played this? I never have headphones on. That's great. I just love to let people know what I'm watching. Jason, are you one of the million plus people who have watched this edit

that some fan went through many seasons of the league and took only my lines? It's like cuts jaggedly. Which is a very awkward thing because none of the setups are there. So it is just my lines. It makes the league seem fucking insane. Which it is.

It is. It is. But it makes it seem. seem very disjointed and bizarre. I like the rhythms. And also, like, not about football, really at all. No, well, my character specifically is not about football. That's true.

And that was evident because the show was improvised, and I know nothing about football. And so I can't improvise knowledge I don't have. Right. So that's where you get Rafi's complete. Dedication to pornography and violence. Yes. And also, anytime there was football stuff, he was constantly trying to fantasy football draft like The Incredible Hulk. Yeah.

When you watch that clip, and I would say 90% of this conversation is going to be about a YouTube clip you had to do it. Happily. Since the show is improvised, when you see it sans context, do you question your line reading of Gattaca? Like, are there moments where you're like, I could have hit that harder? We got into such a, like, that was one of the things that we were like, we read. Gattaca was a whole conversation about like, how is Gattaca going to work? And what is the, because it just was something that seemed funny, but that was also so busy. are.

Yeah. Because it's just Rafi essentially screaming, I think he's trying to scream Attica from

Doug Day Extra No. I think and this is the beauty of the league which is half the time we're not sure why some

of this stuff happened, why this character specifically says and believes stuff that it then become canon and they are just

blown out into like crazier and crazier links. But Gattaca was one that we talked about a lot

and was like a whole like conversation. Okay, he's saying Gattaca, but he's, and that's why, and that, at a certain point they put it in Lujois going, I don't think he knows what, I don't think he knows what that's a movie or whatever. Right. Because it was so,

I feel like people were like going to be like, what is this? Oh, see, I actually thought Roth, like, Gattaca would be one of like four movies that Raffi had seen. He definitely has that. That would be amazing. There's no way, Rafi did say.

All four of the were Ethan Hawk movies. Do you like Gattaca? Gataka? I remember Gattaca being good. Yeah. I remember Gattaca being good, but I truthfully haven't seen it since then. When did that come out? Like, late 90s?

I was going to say in like 97. Andrew Nicol came out hardy around. I remember that. I feel like that movie was one of those, like, you can't. Like, that was like in premiere magazine. They were like when Gattaca comes out. And the script got a lot of money. First of all, that's dating.

I mean, and the Matrix came through and just kind of like moved that out of the way. It was like, no, Gattaca is not as good as the Matrix. I do have another lead question that we are going to get to Atlanta, I promise. But, you know, in context of the league, you know, there's a acclaimed British filmmaker Mike Lee. Sure. Has a certain way of working where his movies are improvised. Correct. But he gives...

His movies are mostly improvised. He works with the actors for like a year prior. So they sculpt their own backstory. They develop and then the circumstances are set. They sort of workshop them. And then when he says action, each actor feels like they know who they are, why they are, where they are. Exactly. But what happens in that moment is, that's magic.

Correct. Was there a similar vibe? when you use Bert Nernie Toys as butt plugs on the show. Like, was that something that you had workshops with the creators of the show? That's a perfect example. And was that a conscious homage to Mike Lee? Yes, it was very much. Secrets and lies.

You know, exactly. You know, for me, it was, that's also bringing a little bit of personal life into the character. I didn't want to ask, but I appreciate you going there. No, I mean, like many things on the league, that was just complete fabricated. The beauty of the league and what I think I love the most, about having done that show. And as we were kind of wrapping it up, all of us, I think also had the realization

that, oh, we'll likely never do anything like this again, which was people let us make a TV show in which we improvised, like, in which Paramount was the element of discovery in the moment. Right. You know, and so that's why stuff in the league gets so crazy, so fast, is because we're just heightening.

You know, like the scripts are, you know, like six, seven page, You know, it works like, it functions like curb or something like that where they write story outlines and then some dialogue if they've got jokes that they really want or something like that But for the most part, it's just story and we are doing these long improvised takes where we're finding all of the bits You know, and then that gets then that turns into something but invariably once you find a bit Once we find something we all like the next take someone takes it in a different direction that everybody's like oh no no no Let's do that instead. Was there a safe word if it went too far? Like Never.

It never went too far. Oh, it always went too far. Okay. That's the two different questions. It always went way too far. I mean, and Rafi is like unquestionably the character that said and did the worst things. And like there are, I'm certain they could cut a best of, not even a best of Rafi, a worst of Rafi. Things that never made it to air because it was just too insane.

Because of standards and practices. Oh, absolutely. Standards and practice. And just like, and also just like, no, no, he can't. That's just. He's already a reprehensible murder, possible rapist, possible insane maniac. Alleged. Alleged.

But he can't go that. It just always was crazy. I feel like the last vine that ever goes up should be one of John Landgraf watching him say, time to shit the booze out. Just an eight-second loop of the brow furrowing just a little bit. Can we actually, I want to see something you said back there, though, about like the kind of, the wonder at the fact that you guys were able to make. that show the way you made it sure and now that show when did the league first come

on when did you first join it I joined in season two and I want to say that's 2011 okay so that's the beginning the early stages of what we kind of now loosely describe as pete TV where there's all these different productions in place and there's all these different styles of production in place but as somebody who's been working so consistently and you're so prolific have you noticed say since the time you join the league to now a different kind of looseness in terms of the way that TV is made. Yes and no.

And it really is predicated on who's doing it. At the same time I got the league, I also got the TV show Enlightened. Right. And so for a couple of years, I did both shows. My part of Enlightened was so small that I was able to. You know, it wasn't, you know, I didn't have to be there a ton. But, you know, and it was this, I was vacillating between something that was complete freedom and something that was absolute rigidity, you know, like, and I, which I loved, you know, like,

I think Mike White is a genius, and I think his scripts were amazing, and I loved that show. But you really had to be like, oh, no, these are the words. Yeah, right. This is the dialogue I'm doing. Right. I'm not deviating, and every once in a while, he'd, like, let me kind of deviate a little bit, but not much. It really was like, oh, no, this is what it is.

So, and I really liked that. I think there is room for both. I do think comedically speaking, and I think we're in this phase right now where a lot of comedy is either by or using people that come out of the scene that I came up in, the Upright Citizens Brigade scene

that began in like the late 90s, like I feel like because our whole peer group has kind of infiltrated comedy and movies and stuff, I think there is just because of that more improvising and more of, I find that people want improvising, improvisers now. They want people to have that facility to be able to kind of deviate

from what's going on and explore different stuff and that's awesome. But not all the time. There's definitely jobs where I've had to be like, oh, no, no, you said this and it's actually that. And I'm like, ooh, bley. That's what I want to ask you, though, as someone who is a gifted improviser, who is often brought on to projects because they rightly assume they could probably

just rev you up and let you go, this podcast among those things that have done that. How do you find a balance between wanting to have that freedom to improvise, but also as a comedic performer who appreciates things that are written and can perform, you can be an actor, you can do those things, you're unenlightened, you're untransparent. How do you find the balance between the two? Because I feel even just as a watcher sometimes, my love of the best things that come from improv, the sense of community, the sense of like you're part of the fun and the enthusiasm, there are movies that I won't necessarily name. Sure. Where I'm like, I wish they had rained it in.

I wish they had just been like, okay, now make a movie. Or this could have used like a point to the, like there's, yeah. Well, that's the, I think one of the hardest things in terms of exactly what you're saying is the collision between improvising as an effort to kind of collectively figure out and pursue discovery. You know, like pursue that kind of epiphany in a scene. And that discovery between two characters that you're capturing can be electric. It could be so exciting. But a lot of times it can work against story. You know, story, like, I'll give an example, like, well, no, I'm not going to give an example.

But can you kind of give an example? Could you put the example on Vine? There's a lot of, a lot of, there's, okay, so a show like the league, you can improvise because nobody's tuning into the league for clearly delineated sitcom storytelling. You know what I mean? Like, they're watching for the relationships. They're watching to watch these people bounce off of each other. They're watching that dynamic.

They want to see, I think, a lot of. of times people watch league because they want to see themselves on screen. Like, that's me. I'm the rucks in. People constantly come up to me to be like, I'm the taco, I'm the this, or whatever. But, you know, if you're going to, especially I think in movies, like, if you're going to tell a story, like you can't just like pursue some funny idea that bogs you down. Like you, that's when I feel like stuff feels bloated or starts to feel like, oh, where's this going? What are we doing? You know, And that, to me, is a very difficult balance to find. It is how much improvising.

And that's, I feel like where you improvise in rehearsals or you improvise and be like, oh, we found a couple of new things or we found this. But now let's just do that. One example I would use as a successful instance of that was seeing other people, Leslie Headland's movie from last year. Sleeping with other people. Sorry, sleeping with other people. In that you and Andrew Savage play this married couple.

Sure. terrific in it. It is a very funny. It is a sharp, relatively tight movie. I loved it. And then once the credits roll, probably my favorite moment in cinema of the year is that you and Andrea Savage just were uncorked and let loose. And coming at the end of the movie, it felt like this great reward for everything that we had seen before. Yeah. And, but is that an example of a movie where the script was the script, or does she give you the right amount of? Um, no, there's a lot of improv in that movie. I mean, okay, let me, that's not entirely true. Um, but, um, That was a very tight script in terms of what we all came in with.

But then there were definitely scenes where, especially like me and Sadecas scenes, where we would kind of peel off and do like the whole thing that's like a Malcolm Gladwell run is improvised. The whole scene where we're sitting at a park bench and I'm just deriding the woman who's brought all the frozen yogurt. I really recommend this movie. That whole scene, the story of that poor woman was got, we delved into that so deeply about our, husband had gotten the nanny pregnant, and now she makes up for it by like overspending on frozen. It was just so long, and it was a perfect example of to us, something that was so funny. Right.

But if you put it in the movie, you'd be like, why did we spend four full minutes watching these two dudes talk on a park bench? Well, you know, that's the kind of thing that when you talk about this sort of proliferation of UCB talent and UCB style storytelling throughout it, it's like, I wonder if the first time you see it, the first 10 times you see it in Anchorman or something like that. You're just like, I've never seen anything like this before. I can't believe this is happening. And then I think as audiences learn what they're watching and how to watch these kinds of things,

they start to expect different things and sometimes are like, I see where this is going. And that's obviously not an example of that. But it's interesting how we become used to watching comedy in a certain way. And I think we also become used to watching and can predict how certain people are going to behave. Yeah. You know, I think that's one of the potential pitfalls is now somebody was describing, like, I shot a movie last year, and like there was a, they went to like a screening of it. And when I first came on screen, there was like an audible kind of like, uh-oh reaction from somebody. Was this, was this Rogue One?

It was Rogue One. Yeah. Uh-oh. Watch out. That's you're the reason they had to read it. As I just rise out of the beach, out of the water, the ocean on the beach. We were going to have Mansoukas do it,

but should we just get Darth Vader in here? Yeah, probably. It's another role that I lost to Forrest Whitaker. Just one more role. First Ediamine. Guys, my Ediamine was so good. It was a left turn. You know, it was surprised.

Yeah, you know, and a lot of people don't know that I have that gear. But I was like, ooh, that makes me a little nervous because I'm like, oh, I'm not going to be that weird in this movie. So I hope people aren't then like, oh, wait a minute. Well, you know, I think there's a certain, when you watch people improvising, especially like now I've done a lot of, you know, for lack of a better term, like scumbag maniacs. You've done some really nice guys. There's a really nice guys.

There's a few nice guys snuck in there. But there is a little bit of like improvising, I think, because improvising, people who are really good. improvisers have a comedic point of view and are, like, I feel like weaving that through everything they do. And that is, I think, can, you know, people can be, it can become a known thing, basically. What's it like getting on set and immediately can you tell the people who are ready to play and those who aren't? Oh, yeah.

And not even in a negative sense. No, no. No. Forrest Whitaker. Hates it. He hates playing around. He's pure sketch, never improv. Totally.

But other people, like, even in the league, like, Marks. Mark Duplas doesn't come from an improv background. Totally. But great improviser. That was my question. So how do you gauge people who are experienced versus those who are ready to learn, ready to play, and then how do you modulate your own presence on set to accommodate them, help them, whatever? It's tough because especially it would happen on the league or it's happened to me in other jobs

where a lot of times it'll be like somebody who's coming in as a guest star or something will arrive and not fully understanding there are going to be no lines. You are going to be given like zero lines. Yeah. So you're just going to have to roll with what they're doing. Right. And here's your point of view. Here's your goal in the scene.

You know, you are this person. All you need, basically all you need to get out by the end of the scene is that you have to meet the guys for dinner later. Anything else, just figure it out. Yeah. And you could see people immediately panic. Yeah. And not, some people like such a like you. could feel them being like, whoa, this is amazing.

Yeah. This is so fun. You know, like people get really excited about it, really like, it's thrilling, you know, for them because when you kind of cut someone loose from lines, sometimes a lot of people can respond very positively. Since this is the positive, can you think of a specific example of someone who like took to it? I'm trying to think.

Dame Helen Mirren. Dave Deyes, yes. I'm trying to think, oh, you know who had a blast? Corbin Brinson came in as Katie's dad. Roger Dorn? Roger Dorn. Came in as Katie's dad

and I felt like day one was kind of like, what's going on? And then once he kind of got in a few scenes, it was like, this is fun. You guys are having a blast.

This is great. Just like the old days with Ikenberry on LA law, man. They would just, they would just rip. Basically, people don't know this.

LA law was based on the Herald, right? Like it came from the same. Oh, yes, completely. for, yeah, opening group games, the whole thing. Harry Hamlin was just yes and. Delclos invented most of modern television. He got points on Bochco.

Yeah, so that's somebody who, like, was obsessed with it. But then there were people who could never settle in, who were unnerved almost entirely, you know, and just couldn't roll with it. What's it like then you've done some great work on, like, Brooklyn Nine-Nine. Brooklyn Nine-Nine is a network sitcom that has people from, who are ready, who you just look in the cast, you're like, you know they're ready to play. There are people in the cast who maybe come from a more traditional TV or acting background.

Oh, yeah. But on top of that, it's a network sitcom. So, you know, it comes from good people who want to have fun, but also it's a network sitcom. It's got to move. They have production days. They have time. Absolutely. So how do you, when you slide onto that set, what's your?

That set is much more, they are also, it is a 20, it's a network sitcom. So it's like 21 and a half minutes long. Yeah. There are, I think, if I'm right, eight series regulars. There's a lot of people on the show. So they're already servicing a lot of people and then add me to that. And then usually I am part of the show in a world in which I'm part of the detectives. Right.

So there's oftentimes even another guest star who is that episode, you know, A story or something like that. So a lot of times they're having to juggle a lot of people. So there is not a looseness in terms of, oh, we're just kind of like, kind of improvise and figure it up. Because a lot of times, like, upwards of eight to ten people are going to talk in this scene, and you can't just futs around. But we will change individual lines. Or, you know, especially during rehearsals, find, like, a, ooh, what if this, instead of this went this.

You know, blah, blah, blah. And then my, like, I will say, like, migrated. They're very, also very, Dan Gore, and all the writers there are fantastic and are also very lovely and are like, if you have something else for this, try it out or pitch it or whatever. And like my favorite thing is like I did an episode that hasn't aired yet that is just for me and Andre Brower and there could not be a better juxtaposition of people

than my manic insane energy and his completely deadpan delivery. But it really, like he was the greatest. and was just kind of like, what are you doing? Like, what is, what are you doing? Like, are you thinking of these previous? Or are these just, like, off the top of your head? Yeah. You know, like, he was on a process level.

He was, like, very curious. And it was great. I was like, I want to talk about this for hours. Like, as an old school homicide fan, like, I want to talk to you. If you want to talk to me, let's do this. I just want to take a quick break and talk to you about Joyable. Do you ever avoid parties or not speak up in a meeting and then regret it later? 30 million Americans will suffer from social anxiety in their lifetime.

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That's Joyable.com slash the watch. Today's episode of The Watch is also brought to you by Blurb. Blurb helps you create, publish, share, and sell your own professional quality books, magazines, and more. You choose from a variety of formats like photo books, trade books, magazines, and ebooks. Create family books, travel books, food books, and more. Use one of their free layout and design tools or Adobe tools with Blurb built in. You print one copy.

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There's a character, there's a part of this episode. Donald Glover comes out of UCB. So he brings that energy. Sure. The guy who plays, I think his name is Craig, the optometrist, who delivers slam poetry, is very afrocentric. You know, I googled that dude because he looked familiar like a type and Google him. That's what he said to this. Exactly. I thought I knew him from the country club. Turns out I did, the country club of Broadway where he's like done stuff.

And he's like a theater actor. Oh, cool. And when I watch him do that, do you remember? No, all theater actors look alike to me. Got it, got it. Also, I was hoping Chris would look at his phone. I'm buying him time right now. This is a little inside, a little behind the curtain.

I think I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it's F. Murray Abraham. I think it might be. I think it is. I'm pretty sure. When he did the poetry scene, and he's just doing it, I was thinking the beauty of this casting and of the scene is that the majority of actors that I knew, like, in acting classes in college, this is kind of what they want to do anyway. Oh, yeah.

Like, they have, there's a desire or a willingness to just lose shame and self-consciousness and own it. Oh, yeah. Like, this guy has done slam poetry before, and he wasn't going for laughs. And the key to his performance is he wasn't going for a left this time either. Actors kind of want to do this stuff, and it's just a question of uncorking them. Totally. Is that fair?

Absolutely, I think. Yeah. I loved this week. I'm obsessed with Atlanta. I think it's an amazing show. And this week's episode, I thought it was fantastic. And that scene specifically, I was like, I love, I love that this is heightening this guy's game to the point where he's going to just do slam poetry. And we're going to cut to everybody's reactions like, yeah.

Yeah. The one woman was like, okay. Jim Crow. I like what this guy's talking about it. So let's talk, let's get into Atlanta this way. I forgot, of course, that Donald came out of UCB. So you have you known him to you? Donald comes out of NYU.

And then his whole sketch group, the Derek. That's Derek. First, there was a, Derek, but there was a group first that was a much bigger group. There was the kind of like the, they were called the Hammercats. They were called. And there was like, it was, you know, Donald, all the Derek guys were in there. but then also like Adam Pally was in there, Gil O'Ezerie, like a whole bunch of other people,

Frank Gillespie. It was like 13 of them. It was like the state. It was like 13 of them or something like. There was an enormous amount of them. And he came out of that. And so like that's the first time that I met any of those guys. They were like just an NYU sketch group

that put up like shows every week. And they were, you know, all super hungry and fascinating and doing like crazy stuff. And then they were the first people I remember in my mind who started putting things. online. We started like putting sketches on YouTube and I remember being like, what is this now? You know, and then like one of the first Derek videos got like two million views on YouTube and I was like, I've been doing comedy for now like 10 years and they've just eclipsed the entirety

of people that have ever seen me perform. So you hate them. I love those guys. But I was like, this is for sure a shift that we need to like figure out. Just as someone, and we've been talking about this with each other and then also people who are, who are, in the industry or watch the industry. Like, did you know, this is sort of a weird question, but like everyone knew Donald was funny. Everybody knew he was a good performer. Everyone knew he's a good writer and a creative guy.

This is like such a jump up in everything. Yes, I am so blown away. And I think I've always thought him to be wildly talented, but this is like a whole step beyond in terms of, I think this show is just the specificity and the point of view that he has is just so fantastic. and I'm episode by episode just blown away by the show. Yeah.

It actually is somebody in our office yesterday was talking about how much they can't. I think Allison was actually talking about how she can't wait to binge watch the season. Go back and watch like five hours of Atlanta. But it's weirdly like event television now for me where I just can't because it's so different week to week. And there's just a different, it goes in so many different directions. The beginning of each episode. Yeah, the beginning of each episode. It's so exciting.

Yeah. Because you don't know where it's. it's going. Why is he late? What's he late for? Oh my God. And also, like, I've gotten, I get really excited to be like, who? Who are we going to go down the road with this week?

Oh, this week we're going to have a paper boy in the club week. This week we're going to have that week that was just Van to dinner with her friend. It's amazing. She's so good. She's amazing. And that's the thing is like the cast is like just all monsters. So all monsters. So you can episode to episode follow up.

any of them and it will be wildly compelling. What do you see in the making of the show, not just in necessarily the writing of the performing that you recognize as improv-ish or USB-ish? Like what aspects of it? I mean very little, frankly. But I don't even mean like literally it's been improv, but like if there's an energy or if there's a creativity or a spirit that imbues it because the thing that we love about it, we talk about week-to-week, is it can be anything at any time.

What I like is, and it seems to me to be that kind of what, okay, so, The scene, I can't remember what episode it is, but where they go to do the deal with Migos. Yeah. Right? It's like so, to me, what's great about the show is this moment in this scene. And I'm not going to remember the lines exactly or whatever. But like the tension keeps getting ratcheted up. Which is very.

Boom. Yeah. Boom. Right. It keeps heightening, heightening. But like tension, not. And then they start weaving jokes. in between

Paperboy and what's the other... And Darius. Yeah, and Darius. They start having like a private conversation between them that is very funny, but does not let the air out of the tension. Yeah. And that to me is like, that to me is like,

that I recognize as like, oh, you're going to do this one thing, but you're also going to thread this other thing through and it's not, they are, they can both exist. So you're seeing scenes that are like, like either very sad or very melancholy, but that have like real pops of humor or real subtle humor woven in,

and that's what I love in the show. For somebody who's also does writing and somebody's making a lot of television, when a show like this comes like in like in music, especially on like an indie level or like in local scenes, like a band will make an album

and it'll kind of have... I'm gonna be honest with you guys. I haven't heard you take on the new Beachlang record at all. We've been real quiet on it. Yeah, you have. Which leads me to believe you hate it. I don't hate it.

Wow. This is, wow. I'm just saying, everybody wants to know. First of all, I love the way he did this. You lay back in the cut for 30 minutes and then just brought the hammer. I'm, of course. I feel like they should have waited a little longer for a second record. Interesting.

Generally, I like the quick turnaround. I would have taken an EP. But I would have taken an EP. Because when you do the one thing that you do really well, first of all, to do one thing really well. It's so hard to be like, this is a beach slang record in quotes after you've made a beach slang record. That's right. I mean, if you can do one thing really well, God bless you. I feel like that's really hard to do.

But then to do it again, right when everyone's like, and now they're going to do it even more and do it better. And it's, I feel like it's kind of the same record. Which I like, because I like the way that record sounds. Sure. But I was like, I'm going to have my life saved two years in a row. Yeah, right. Thank God I get to live for a third year. But yeah.

So I was, I'm a mezzo-mezzo on it. Yeah. But out of respect, I wasn't going to go on the record with it. Well, now I forced you on the record. The thing I was going to ask is just so like an album will come out and I'll have like reverb, like reverberations in a local scene where people are like, shit, those guys did that? Sure. Now I have to, do you feel that? Do you feel that when you see something like you see in Atlanta and you're like, damn, like you can do that on TV?

I mean, not that there aren't other examples of really adventurous, brave storytelling on television, but does it set the bar higher? I mean, in a way it does. More than anything, it's just exciting. Right. Like, because, I mean, listen, part of it is I'm an enormous TV fan. Yeah. I'm like, I'm a guy that listens to the watch. You know what I mean?

Like, I'm processing, you know, television or I'm processing media. I'm like, my media consumption is massive in a way that is stressful and overwhelming. But when something like Atlanta comes out, it really cuts through to me and is like this, and like I've been talking about this show since I, since it started and I started watching it because because it's, it's so exciting and because it's a terrific TV show, but also because, like, I know the person that made it, and that's really, that's, I'm, like, excited both because it exists and also I'm excited for Donald, who I think is fantastic.

So, um, and I felt the same way, you know, uh, I felt the same way when plenty of my friends have created shows that were meaningful. Um, and it makes me, it makes me really happy that, because I do think we're in a golden age of television. I do think stuff people are taking chance. I'm also excited that a show that is as innovative and interesting as Atlanta is on FX. You know, it's not on, and I love all the other ways we're getting television, but like, oh, no, this is a television network that is, you know, funded by commercials, and they're putting something on that is wildly experimental. Yeah, I think that's an underrated point because I really miss consensus television. I feel like our podcast does better when there's consensus

television, not ratings-wise, just in terms of like, it's more fun to talk about things that we're all watching together. And for as much as this golden age or whatever it is has allowed us to have all of the television so we can get every different kind of television experience, it's nice to have something like this brought in from the margins, put on the main stage, put on the main platform. I'm thinking about that a lot with like the third season of Black Mirror, because there are two episodes in it that I think if they had all come on, if that, if San Juan Piero and Playtest had been on Sundays, right. People would have just been like, this is all I want to talk about for like four days is this episode not all of Black Mirror not did you did you

get how far into it to the season did you get but specifically this episode well that's the thing about and i haven't thought this through so maybe i'm gonna i'll probably think of an example that will prove me wrong but i so enjoy watching serialized television in that way wherein if you give me stranger things i will consume all of stranger things yeah but like something like black mirror or something that is And I haven't seen any of the new season of Black Mirror, so I can't speak to that. But something that is so episodic, I think, can benefit from every week or give me one or two and then let me digest and talk about it, you know? Right. Rather than, I think if you watch all of Black Mirror, you've just got a lot going on to process.

You're not, you know, each of them is its own thing to kind of grapple with. And I think it's not a serialized story that you're following. So I don't know. I miss sometimes that kind of delivery system. I also don't want to sound too utopian or even conservative about this, but I don't. But let's make America great again. Is it time to do it really? Can we really ask that question?

Can you get that? I'm just saying, hashtag maga? Hashtag T-cott. I'm wearing my Pepey the Frog shirt. I want to challenge this idea that like all, this idea of all comedy being subjective and that's your taste or it's someone else's taste. That's true. And there are things I find funny that Chris does in that dog video is. telling you about on YouTube isn't for everyone.

I get that. Oh, no. And I was making this point recently on a different podcast. I was like, I feel like if I'm doing my job right, people have to be like, I hate Rafi, you ruined the show, which they are often time. A lot of people feel that way. A lot of people are like... With the aesthetic purity of season one was challenged.

I mean, and it really is interesting. And that I feel like genuinely like, oh, no. Like, I think I'm right if people are like, I love Rafi, Rafi's the best, or whatever, whatever we're talking about, or I hate this. This is ruining it. But I agree. What I'm saying is I want that to be a shared debate. I worry about a time when we have, I don't worry, because it's ridiculous, we're talking

about TV. But since there are 300 channels and there are 470 scripted shows per year, the fact that there's a little show for everyone. Sure. I hope somebody goes up to Anthony Hopkins and says, you're the worst part of Westworld. You ruined my favorite show, Westworld. Sir Anthony Hopkins. Look, Sir Tony.

But, like, we should be, the things that have the biggest fire hoses to get this content to us should challenge us. And conversely, you know, like, I don't know if you watch Rectify, which a tiny little drama. I did. I watched some of season one. It's a wonderful show. And it's a small show, and it's on Sundance. And I kind of wish other people were had a chance to watch it. I wish it was on a big of.

Who ruined Rectify? You should have seen. He like, he drove forward on that as well. He drove a golf cart. He comes on to Rectify. Just picks up a bunch of dirt. examines it. Weirder he walks on a rectify

and he just starts waving his fingers like an Abigail Spencer to make her freeze and it doesn't work that. And then he does that's 30 minute Rafi impersonation. But only Rafi lines. Where are you with Westworld? I'll be honest.

I've watched them all. This is the place for honesty. It leaves me very cold. You know, it is not, I have no, I'm watching it, but it's a very passive watch for me. You know, it is certainly,

It's interesting, but it has that sci-fi thing that I feel like can keep you at arms distance, Gattaca. It is something that I appreciate the kind of beauty of what they've created. Yeah. But I feel no, like I am never, for a show that has so many inherent questions and mysteries, I never talk about it with anybody afterwards. I never am driven, like to read, you know, somebody's take online. Like, after every Game of Thrones, I feel like I'm reading Joanna Robinson or somebody's take on that thing. I'm consuming all of the stuff that people are writing about. You want to experience the show to continue after the show.

You're not in the forums for Westworld. I could not care less. And people have been like, oh, have you heard this is the theory. The theory is, you know, Anthony Hop. No, no, I mean, Ed Harris and Jimmy Simpson. Jimmy Simpson, right? Yeah. Are the same guy.

It's two different timelines. it's mind blown. And I was like, I guess. Yeah. But like that doesn't really blow my mind. It just is a little cold. I think the best of like my favorite sci-fi movies, whether it's something like, I mean, Alien is a really good example.

The first 45 minutes of Alien are people bullshitting with each other. Yeah. It's just like people hanging out, getting coffee, being cranky about their jobs and like how much they're getting paid. And then a fucking alien shows up. But it's like that's something that this show does miss, which is like any, like when you get into like, the future where everything works and is clean. It's like, but people don't boss each other's balls. Even what you just did, in order to talk about the show, you had to slow down your voice

and become very measured. Yes. And this is how the show works. Yeah. And it starts, like to me, the best sci-fi show on television right now by far is Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty is like top five television shows right now for me. Because it is, it operates perfect, like, as wonderfully inventive science fiction.

And hilarious comedy. And the relationships are undeniable. You know, and that is a show I will watch over Westworld every day. Yeah, I agree. There were some people, I've been getting some pushback for my, for my Manzuka-esque Westworld take. Way did Duck in cover there. I really appreciate it having you here.

This is a great cover for me. But some people are like, you know, but don't, I can understand. Why would you not think robots are amazing and make it fascinating? No, I did the Westworld voice. This is Andy's Westworld Commer voice. But, but, ah, I'm like a high airplane coming in for landing, but, ah, but for me, that's the same reason why I don't watch, like, top gear, because I don't care about cars. Yeah. Like, I fundamentally don't care about cars.

So if the show is about cars, some people really love cars. Totally. And they want to see them drive and round and talk about the pistons or whatever. I don't care about that. See, you're doing it. Does that sounds good? That's a thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pistons and just fire it. Yep, yep. No, I know what you mean. I feel like the show, and again, I've watched every episode of it. You know, absolutely. I'm giving it all of my attention. But I just can't, it's not drawing me in, you know, the way that I find so many other shows have, you know, and maybe it's going to be a slow burn. Maybe it's going to be like, oh, but the flame is flickering.

Episode eight, I was like, whoa, I'm all in on this. I don't know. But don't you feel like there's so many other things demanding your time? eight hours in, is it still worth it? Yes, I agree. It is worth it. It's, you keep bringing up the robots thing, but it's not like we're looking at boxes with blinking lights. Like, that's the thing.

Is that like... Tell me more about the boxes. Well, I'm just saying that, like, you are imagining it as if, like, it's just like, must compute, West World, you know, but it's like, actually, like, you know, Tandy that was amazing. Thank you. It's like Evan Rachel Wood and Tandy Newton are interesting characters. I mean, to me, and that, that, the problem you have where you're like, the atrocities

afflicted upon robots is. not like getting me in the heart. They're not atrocious enough. I don't know that they're necessarily aimed to do that. I don't know that they're like, we really are trying to get you to feel what they're feeling. Because like they're not feeling anything until they are. Where are we at now?

Episode five. We've seen some coming. Right. I feel like, and again, this is a reaction to these four episodes. But I still feel like we're setting the board. And if we're still setting the board at four hours in, when we start playing it better be fucking amazing

is the thing is if you're gonna really take this much time to kind of tease out all of these players and all of this battle of Blackwater that shit you gotta do it

yeah they got to go for it did you guys ever play Red Dead Red Dead Redemption yeah okay my problem with Westworld is similar to my problem with that game which is a problem that I personally have

it's not a problem with the game or with Westworld which is in an open source game where you can go where you can jump on a horse and go anywhere

and do anything I feel like I don't know where to go right I feel like in the game I'm like what am I supposed to do what's the right thing

what's the storyline I'm supposed to fall and my friends will be like oh no there isn't you're just supposed to go and have an adventure I'm like no no no no but when do I get the boss

yeah where's the what road do I take to do the right thing so you wouldn't have fun at Westworld no you would just walk west I would be like, what am I supposed, what am I supposed to do? Can I be clear with it?

You're supposed to fucking kill robots. I know. I think that's it. That's really all you're supposed to do. Yeah, I get it. But I would feel like, am I doing this right? I would be like, should I be fucking and killing robots in a different town? You're like mid-orgy.

Let's like close to stretch your- I want them to do a bottle episode about a guy who like shows up in Westworld and like tries to like flip the house of like the tavern. Like you guys just need to work with a much more open floor plan. and get the natural light in here. The Jeremy Renner episode. A Jeremy Renner episode. A guy just comes in and builds like a very modern house. You need his and her sinks in the saloon.

There you go. You mentioned Rick and Morty being in your top five right now. Do you have a working top five? It doesn't have to be five. It could be three. It could be seven. I mean, let's see. What should we be talking about?

What would you rather we talk about? Oh, no. I'll happily talk about Westworld. I am... Please, waving the white flag. I'm trying to think, what else? Atlanta really, like, leaps and bounds for me is the thing that I am really just think is so exciting

on television right now. I just watched, this is not something that is new, but I just watched all of BoJack Horseman. Oh, yeah. Which is a terrific show. I gotta do it. It's great. And I was, and as it goes from being one show,

which I enjoyed and thought was terrific in season one to a much different show. Yeah. Like cumulatively, the melancholy of this show is just heartbreaking. It's great. I think that shows fantastic. Of course, I watched the Great British Bake-off. Do you actually? Home run.

Oh, love. Wow. Never seen it. I don't like baking. I like cooking shows, but I don't like baking. Nope. I don't care. I don't care about baking at all.

Yeah. Don't care. And yet? I don't care about cooking. I don't care about any of that. Do you care about British people? I don't really. I don't care for them.

I actually like to... You hear that, Britain? You're on notice. They'll be exiting. I liked Top Gear. Before I knew that most of the people who hosted... The original top gear? Like bad people.

Yeah. Because you like cars and robots so much. This is tearing us apart. It was actually just like an example of like... It's like Shark Tank. It's like I don't really care about investing in businesses, but there's something about... Do you want the profit? Sometimes, yeah.

I enjoy that. I've seen it on planes. Like Shark Tank. Tank is my plane show. I watch like nine shark tanks. More than Shark Tank. I've never seen any of these things. Yeah.

I don't even like what you're talking about. Oh, I'm obsessed with a show called Alone. Do you guys know this show? Okay, the setup of this show is, I am obsessed with it. I don't want, here's the thing. I don't watch any, like, reality television. Like, I'm not. Like competition.

I don't watch Survivors. I don't watch Housewives. None of those things. But there is one specific sliver of this that I do watch obsessively, which. which are shows that are, this is the setup of alone. They take 10 people. Almost all of them have some background in military special forces or primitive survival techniques or whatever. So we could do this show.

Correct. The three of us, total contestants. They take them out to the Vancouver Island off of Vancouver. It's this huge, like vast rainforest type area. And they put each of the 10 people in spots like many, many, many miles away from each other. And the entirety of the show is we're dropping you off. You're your own cameraman. The last one standing gets $500,000.

What does that mean? Like dead or I just turns to the camera and says, get me out of here? There is like a everybody has a get me out of here button, like a satellite button. That's awesome. And so what you're watching in the first month is people grappled. Oh yeah, it's already. Everybody is told, be prepared to stay for a year. a year and yeah do they have in and out there like what do they eat oh no that's the so what the the first month

is people figuring out how to survive truly sort like base level survival where's my food going to come from where how am i going to deal with there are bears and jaguars and all sorts of like crazy super dangerous wildlife then once everybody and then people are tapping out over the course of the month and then at a certain point the people that are left have sustainable food sources or whatever, then it's all psychology. Then you're watching a TV show where people are going insane week to week, literally. What show is going insane? You're watching people start, they're losing weight, they start not hallucinating, but talking

to themselves a lot. There's one guy who goes all the way through and it's so great. But by the end, he's vacillating between like hilarious laughter and like openly weeping. He is on an emotional roller coaster. It's fascinating. And yet, have you watched any of the bear? Bear gills, bear grills, like any of those shows? I watched the original show he did that was just him surviving before it was like him

and celebrities. When he takes celebrities out, it's the bestest when it'll be like they'll, you know, like they're hungry or whatever. And the celebrity would be like, oh, look a blueberry bush there. And he's like, yeah, but what we have to eat is we have to eat fox balls because the protein source, if you want to climb over this rock, the person is just like, I'm a, like, vegetarian cheeses. The best thing I saw once was in an episode of his show, he comes.

comes across a dead skunk. And he's like, I need food, so I'm going to have to eat this. And the skunk in dying has like, the meat is like rotten with the skunk spread. Yeah. So he just keeps putting food into his mouth and throwing it up onto the. It's like, it's so insane to watch this man do this. I feel like we all had a friend like that. Like I'll like that.

Like I'll do that. Like this is guys, guys, I brought this back from Iceland. It's disgusting. Shots. Yes, exactly. Do it. Totally. That's good.

So that's the psychology of that. But quick question, with the bear in the Jaguars? And they're supposed to then be doing selfie videos when they're grappling with the bear? Or are the people like, I hear a noise in the woods. I'll be right back. And then it cuts off and it cuts back on. And they like have three scratch marks across their face. And they're like heads up.

No, but what it is, what it will be is like a bear. A lot of times it's night at night and people will have, will turn their camera on and they'll be like, I hear a noise. Yeah. And basically it's them sticking a GoPro out their tent window or out their, their structure and there are like bears walking through their camp be dope it was like a ghost just like we on this survival show just found ghosts yeah we were like bigfoot walks by this is so alone rick and morty bojack Atlanta obviously any other recommendations as we wrap up um I mean guys I'm not gonna lie Gilmore Girls is coming back at the end of the month on Netflix

I am an unabashed Gilmore girls are you going to go to Stars Hollow like they have that town. I know. I just saw that. I don't think I will. But I support everybody who does. I do, I think the show is absolutely fantastic. I just watched almost all of the entire series in preparation. It's undeniable. The show is fantastic.

Can I ask you? And it's all on Netflix. Just as a thought, uh, exercise. What show recent, current, would you, would you, do you think would most benefit from Rafi making an appearance? I can answer this. Like if you could. I can actually answer. I mean, I have an answer for a show that if Rafi showed up, it would make sense for the show.

Okay. So it's what is it? Bloodline? Bloodlines. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what, because I feel like I'm the other Ben Mendelssohn. You're the other brother.

I'm the other, yeah. And if he's gone, like, Raffi should show up, you know. Our brother's coming back from Chicago. Just like Kyle Chandler's illegitimate children. And Raffi will only call him Coach Taylor. Coach. I'm totally. Put me in coach.

They would, first of all, Netflix would have renewed it for two more seasons and up to the episode costs. I also wouldn't mind if Rafi was in like period shows. Oh, yeah. If Rafi was in like Masters of Sex. Rafi could really get it going in Outlander. Oh, yeah, for sure. He had a great time at Outlander. Just as a performer, as the man behind the Rafi mask, what would you most enjoy like jumping on set and disrupting?

As Rafi, you mean? Is that kind of a character? Yeah, you're coming to do that. on. They're like, we need a day player. We got to get it. I would, I mean, I would have loved it if they had been like, come play that character on the good wife. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like Rafi should show up in a one. Like, it would make sense like to me if Rafi inexplicably showed up on it's always sunny. Yeah. I'm like, okay, God. That's a shared universe. Was that ever, is there, if you ever actually been a part of something that where that's, that suggestion is muted? Like where it's like, let's like, let's do this. No, not, not like in a way that was like, yeah, now we're actually going to do that.

But, like, you know, for sure. But, like, I think we all, our whole group and their whole group are very kind of like-minded. Yeah. But I would love it if Rafi or, like, some sort of one of my monster characters showed up on like a just straight up one-hour procedure. I don't know. If you guys, if Rafi and Charlie did a show together, I don't know that they could put it on. Oh. They can even put it on streaming television.

You have to watch it on the dark web. Like, Rafi shows up. Graves Charlie and then we just drive to vice principals. Yes. Road trip across networks together. Dare to dream. Although the idea of Rafi in lockup on SVU does make almost too much sense.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. We should wrap up, but Jason, what's... How dare you? First of all, we'd love to have you come back. How dare you? Anytime. This heavy door is open. Please, I would love it. What show would you like to come back to talk about in the future?

Do you want to come back during Thrones? Yeah, I'd love to come back. I mean, I'm a huge Game of Thrones fan. I'd love to come. But, I mean, I'm trying to think if there's anything that I'm really looking forward to that's coming back... The Good Wife Spinoff? Are they doing that?

Star on the queen. Oh, is it? It's Baransky show. St. Christine Baransky. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. Because any time, it is the most CBS move of all time being like, we're going to start a streaming service to attract the youngs.

Get Christine Baransky. Oh, is that where they're putting that Star Trek as well? Yes. That's right. Star Trek and Christine Baranski, two just titans of pop-collared. But that shit will probably be like way bigger than any other, like, we've started a streaming service. Kids are going to get on their tablets. And that's exactly what they want to watch.

They're going to fire up their zoons and they're going to watch. Look, I, that's my general... Turn on their Samsung note. It's a flip night. Flip open their sidekick. That's generally my attitude towards CBS. I laugh because I watch everything on my Newton. How's that working out?

No, it's not good. The resolution is legit terrible. It's a little rainy. Oh, man. Jason, thanks so much for joining us today. It has been a real pleasure. I'm a huge fan. You want to plug something?

Didn't need a plug? What's coming? What's coming in the Minkukisverse? I do a podcast called How Did This Get Made? that I'll plug. It's on iTunes. You can go listen to that. And that's all in our shared podcast universe.

We exist together. Oh, yeah, we all exist together. And then if you, I mean, watch... The bloodline podcast universe. And then I'll pop up on Brooklyn 9-9. So if you guys are watching that, check it out. Adrian Pimento, only going to be more insane. Okay.

I can't wait. I can't wait to see that. And the Andre Brower scene, you tease. Oh, there's very funny Andre Brower stuff. This is a stone cold genius. Speaking of Stone Cold Genius, Chris and Jason. Thanks, guys. Talk to Monday.

Great job, Branski.