The Watch - Ep. 94: All Things FX Re-up With Nick Grad

Episode Date: November 3, 2016

Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald are joined by FX president of original programming Nick Grad to discuss the success of 'Atlanta' (7:07), the development of that show’s second season (19:48), and the competition in today’s crowded TV landscape (35:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in a storage space in Atlanta, it's Andy Greenwald. Happy to be back. Sorry, I missed you on Monday, man. You're feeling better?

I'm a little weak, but, you know, this show can get me out of bed. It's just a little rough. Andy, we have a special guest today. We do. I'm very excited to bring on to the podcast, I think a friend of the podcast, and admitted occasional dabbler and listener. The president of programming for FX and FX productions, Nick Grad. Hey guys.

What's up, Nick? Nick, we're very happy to have you here, not only because you are a friend of the pod and a nice fellow, but because you were instrumental in bringing, shepherding Atlanta onto the air. And as much as we want to talk about the season finale, we also... This is not a baskets pod? Oh, we could do baskets, too. I'm baskets back, man. Baskets back in January.

Emmy Award winning Louis Anderson. We want to talk about the whole process, how it came to you as an idea, how you got it onto the air, and how it became this amazing thing that it became. Are you prepared to talk about all those things? First of all, I want to say that I'm a huge fan of the pod, and it's kind of, it's a little bit seeing the wizard behind the curtain. It's very impressive when you see us on a layer, right? Seeing Chris scream Andy Greenwell. I have a pretty cool Merlin hat on right now, too. Chris is actually available to scream my name at social events.

He's kind of got a Michael Buffer sidewhip. I need that app. Yeah. That would be a hot app. And I was sort of, I was a little worried last week when I knew I was coming on. And of course, you know, I'm following Rafi. That's not fair. That is not fair.

It's tough. In that very chair, he sat yelling Gattaca. That is a tough one. But, you know, not one thing that your network has proven and Atlanta has proven is that not every episode has to follow the same tone. as the episode that came before, right? So this is the new television. We can go from improvisational comedy to whatever you want this to be.

Deeply confessional executive moments. Nick, tell us a little bit about, so do you remember when Atlanta figuratively landed on your desk? Well, we, I remember a bunch of a couple years ago, we had a kind of a quote, unquote, general meeting with Donald and, you know, he started talking about, you know, a world. It was pretty free form.

It was about a feeling and a world. And, you know, it took place in Atlanta and it dealt with rap. But it was a very kind of rough idea out there. But, you know, we loved. We were, John was someone that we had sort of marked down. Someone we were chasing. And we really wanted to develop them. So, you know, we, of course, sort of threw our hat in the ring and said,

yeah, we'd love to, you know, we'd love to have you write a script, you know, and sort of figure this thing out. And, you know, thankfully, he chose us. I don't, I don't remember at the time how competitive it was. You know, look, I think part of, I mean, I'd like to think, you know, we had a good meeting, but I'd also like to think that part of the reason he chose us was, you know, I think the trail that Louis sort of plays for us. and knowing that we could sort of support these ever-increasing, malleable half-hours.

You know, it could be anything. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to hit a certain mark of how much comedy there is. You know, it can be dramatic. It can be comedic. It doesn't have to be linear. And, you know, I think it was, we were excited about it. But I don't think we sort of realized, you know, that it was something really. until I think over a year later the script landed on our desk

and you read it and you're like, holy shit, like this is really different, this is really special, but this is definitely something we can program. You know, it sort of fits in this sort of half-hour brand that we had. Did he say the words that have become attached to the development of the show? Did he say in that meeting, I want to do Twin Peaks with rappers? Did he use these words that kind of are exciting? It's funny how that's become the Mr. Chips'

What was the Breaking Bad one? Oh, right, yeah. Mr. Chips is Scarface. Yeah. That's essentially the de facto log line of a show that rejects loglines at every opportunity. But I imagine, even if he didn't say those words, it's always a hurdle to get what's in someone's head unless they put it on a page. So in that meeting, were there any of the strands that became the show? You know, I don't remember that.

I mean, obviously, I remember reading the script, and, you know, there's still the scene on the bus, you know, with the sandwich, you know, and there's the talk of the dog. And so, you know, like, it wasn't like something that was sort of jammed in there at the end. You know, it was definitely a part of it. And there was like, there was also a really amazing scene in the pilot that we ended up not shooting. That was this crazy scene that all took place in like a oneer on the subway. You know, it sort of went through all these different incarnations. But it was, I mean, once you read it, you sort of, it was more as Donald said, it was like a feeling. And then you're like, oh, okay.

Like, I sort of get it, and then you read the script, and you're like, oh, I really get it now. And, you know, we were all sort of, it was just so original, just like nothing you'd ever read before. So let me ask you a question. Where did you work before FX? Like, what's, like, in terms of your... Well, I've been at FX for 14 years. Okay. So even in that time period, when does it's a feeling become the kind of thing that can get a show sold, right?

Because that feels like something that, from an outside perspective, would have only been. in the last three, four years where you could walk in and be like, I have an idea for a world. There's no plane crash in an island. There's no hospital. There's just this idea I have. You know, look, I think especially in half-hour development,

you know, when you're paying people to write scripts, I think there's a certain amount of R&D that goes into that process. And so, look, I think if it's someone that's really talented that you believe in, you know, the glass is more than half full and you're willing to sort of roll the down. dice and say, yeah, let's write a script. I think, you know, I think the marketplace is super competitive right now, and now you read about all these places, you know, having to go straight

to series and immediately shoot a pilot. And, you know, that gets a little tricky. But I think, you know, being able to have someone put something down on paper and then you can sort of really see it, you know, it, you know, you watch the show right now and you're like, oh my God, this seems like the craziest idea. How did they put that on? But I think if you go through these stages, you can sort of understand how that can come to be. Let's talk about those stages.

What you alluded to with things going straight to series and the competitive nature of the marketplace, there's a sense, and I think we can pull some examples, but that there are some of the players who are swooping in, like a Netflix or something, is basically saying, okay, go make it, okay, go make it, okay, go make it. And they seem to be to some degree. I don't know the inner workings of Netflix at all, frankly,

but leaving behind some of the skills that more traditional, I can't believe I'm calling FX and more traditional broadcaster, but you've been around for a little bit longer, some of the skill sets and values that you guys like to do, which is you like to develop, you like to do R&D, you like to have back and forth, you like to get behind under the hood with the creators and work on stuff. What is that process like?

You have the script, you have a willing partner in Donald, where does it go from there? How long is the process? Do you have a time frame? Or is it very organic? Like, you know, this process developing with Donald is different than developing with, you know, all the other people you develop with Louis or Ryan Murphy or whomever. You know, look, the ability that you have when you don't really have the, you know, a set schedule. So you don't have to launch, you know, like the broadcast networks, you know, a bunch of shows in September allows you to sort of do the sort of Ernest and Giulio Gallo thing.

And take your time. And so everything, I would say every show, every project has had its own idiosyncratic journey. And it's really about, look, most people, I guess, who are artists, on some level, want someone to say, we love it, just go make it. And you have no interference. But I think, I mean, if you talk to people who've worked with us, look, I think there's a learning process on both ends. from it. And yeah, it's great to be able to have these

crossroads where you can sort of cut bait if you need to if it's just not there. But for the most part, I think everyone learned something at each stage of the journey. And I think you'll learn so much in writing it. I think we learned so much putting a ton of feet and shooting it. And then you learn just... Luke Donald was talking to us about, you know,

ideas for the second season, and he's learned so much not only from making the first season, but from watching it and seeing people's feedback. And the whole thing is a, I think it's a feedback loop that's really important in putting something on the air. There's a narrative, like, I think that one of the narratives about the show is that,

and rightfully so, is that this is what happens when you give people who ordinarily don't get a chance to make television, a chance, whether it's somebody like here, a Marai directing, who had not done television before, say. And one of the things that is interesting to me about Atlanta, though, is for as sort of progressive or rule breaking as it seems when you watch it, it also feels like the

work of people who know how to make television. You know what I mean? I'm never bored when I'm watching Atlanta. There's never a feeling like, I'm like, this is really like, where are we going here? And yet, and this is, that dovetails perfectly with a question I wanted to ask, which is a lot of these people hadn't made television. I mean, there's a trust process. You get the script. You're excited about Donald's Vision. You puts it on the page. You're going to going back and forth, he's a good creative partner. But at a certain point, you cut the check and let them go off to Atlanta and film this thing. What was it about this crew, about Donald himself, about his brother, about the people he's working with, about hero, that allowed you to say, yeah, go do it.

Look, I think you sort of earn more credit in the bank as you go through the process and sort of prove yourself. So, you know, Donald writes this great script. okay man this guy really is a visionary and and really talented writer you know we did a big search for directors we had some really interesting names and then you know at some point donald wrote a very impassioned email about hero and why he thinks he's the right choice and we you know we spent a bunch of time watching heroes a lot of short film at donald right and watching a lot of his videos for donald and you know at the end of the day like why are we going to jam someone in there when this guy's very talented?

I know he hasn't done television, but our creator totally believes in this guy, and I think we have to support our creators and, you know, not make this safe choice. Totally, when you guys are in that R&D stage, what are some of the references and influences that are getting tossed around by Donald, by Hero, by you guys in terms of like capturing? Because you watch it, and I've,

actually been, you know, there's like stuff where I feel like it has like a real Altman feel and there's stuff where I feel like it has a real Cohen Brothers feel like in terms of the dream logic that sometimes happens with it. Was there anything in particular that Donald was using as reference points that you guys were suggesting as reference points that you remember? I mean, here's what I remember the most is Donald would say I wanted to be, you know, like this movie or that movie, but he'd always followed up with like, but I wanted to be really funny too. Yeah. And so, you know, we sort of felt like, okay, there has to be this right balance of comedy.

It doesn't have to be, you know, as funny as, you know, overtly funny as it's always sunny in Philadelphia. But it has to have comedy in some degree. And look, I think once Louis was on the air and you realize it can be anything at once and it still can be compelling, then you can sort of say, okay, well, you're going to have this much comedy. That's fine. But, you know, he still wanted, he still, he still,

at the end of the day wanted to make something that was funny. What about casting? Because obviously you guys felt comfortable enough with their auditions, with everything else to cast Brian Tiger Henry, Keith Stanfield, Zazy Beats, like to cast them as part of the ensemble. Was there a moment, though, when you started seeing dailies or cuts of episodes when you realized just how remarkable they were? Because I think that's the other thing about this show.

One of the reasons we're so excited about it, about it and many people are is that it didn't just feel promising. You know, it's very easy to get behind a show that feels potentially good from the beginning. Potential can get you through at least the season. This felt fully formed and alive in such a way. Like, we feel like we know those people so that when I watched the finale this week, and I realized that that Earn and Alford are saying goodbye for the day in the episode, and that means for the year for us, I was sad.

I'm going to miss them. Yeah, and watching Brian Tyreehead, it was almost like watching like Stephen Adams emerge over the course of a playoffs, you know, no, because it's like you're like, Okay, I'm here to watch Russell Westbrook. I'm here to watch Glover. And then you're like, oh, look at this guy. And then you're like, who's this guy? Yeah, we were fortunate enough.

I mean, Alexa Fogel, I think, is one of the best casting directors. I mean, she casts for David Simon. And, you know, every choice that was presented to us was the choice that they ended up hiring. There was no, like, oh, no, we don't like this person who's next. they presented this cast and we watched the auditions, we said yes. And I think, you know, I remember watching The Daily's being like, oh, my God, this is just incredible. And I think part of what Alexa does is, you know, casts incredibly well-trained actors who seem like they're in a documentary, you know. Yeah.

So it's really, you know, we, you saw the Daily's, you sort of like, okay, these, like, we have a, we have a, we, have fire on all positions here. What's that like in the offices when you're making, the shows in production, you guys at FX are starting to get excited. You see what's coming in. You feel like it's, is there a specific feeling the office when you know maybe you're riding a good one or do you not want to jinx it? Yeah, no, I remember we were watching the first, you know, even after the pilot when we're

watching the first and second and third episodes, we watch all the cuts together in the office. And all of you? You mean like the department? John Langraff to the current exec on the show. We all watch it together so we can start and stop and talk about all of our, just really be of one mind about it and not give conflicting notes at different times. And, you know, we're all looking around being like, this is like, this is, this is on a whole other level. And, you know, it, we've had that feeling before.

I remember feeling it when we're watching Louis cuts. Yeah. You know, but the other thing is, you know, with a lot of our shows, especially in the half hours, you know, like, I had a really good feeling that people would find the show and love it. I actually am amazed how much faster it's happened than I imagine because I think all these other shows took a year. It just took word of mouth. Yeah. People saying, like, have you seen Louis? It's like, we're not friends if you're not watching the show.

And I'm so blown away by how fast. The critics, but both just the people, you know, are like everyone, it's just, I think it's doing extremely well. And the feedback is fantastic. People like get it and understand it and are cherishing it right away. So that's that's blown my mind in a world where there's so much television. Right. I mean, you guys. Someone call it peak television.

It's almost if there's someone in your office. It's like coined this term. I wish there was like a mountain of television. Like a lot of it. And we were sort of kind of at the top, but I don't know what I would call. Actually, I sort of wish. That doesn't.

That doesn't work. I wish there was a guy in an executive position in a network who kept a running tally of how many shows there were on the air. It's kind of like an elected office of television. Yeah. But, you know, it proves the adage that like there's too much good television and not enough great television. And it's lovely to know when great television comes along, people, people can find it and recognize it. But you guys, I joke. but all networks are aware of this, FX's perhaps more most vocal about it and most articulate about expressing it,

like, it is a problem to get noticed. I mean, the marketplace is completely flooded. And there are a lot of good to great shows that just sort of get washed away or become essentially mid-shows, which you can survive that at this point. I think that one of the problems, though, is that there are a lot of pretty good shows. Well, that's a whole other issue, which I agree with. But I'm curious just from a, I think we have opinions about it, which we can discuss now as well. from a network level.

Do you have a theory internally why this was able to break through? Well, shout out to FX Marketing Department, who I think is just, you know, incredible. And they, you know, they get these shows. I mean, they love them like we do. I was going to ask you about this. And it's not like we sort of outsource this stuff. We have an in-house marketing group that is as passionate about FX as we are.

and they really collaborated really well with Donald and just kind of had a great instinct as to what to do and how to tease it and how not to show it but to tease it. Yeah, I mean, I even interrupt you. I mean, it was just everything from the font of the credits, the bumper music, the Atlanta Twitter feed is really good. Everything about soup to nuts,

It's part of like an entire piece. But it also takes a level of confidence because the billboards that were everywhere are three guys, one of which we know, but two of which we don't necessarily know, with peaches in their mouth and then a word. That's a city. And that communicates, it's completely appropriate for the show, but that's a leap of faith because you're not overdoing it. You're not trying to trick anyone or convince anyone.

You're not yelling. It's not didn't make the show for the poster. He's got 24 hours to save the president. I think our marketing, you know, they're not trying to sell you everything and explain the whole show in one image because you can't do that. No. You know, it's just got to be something iconic and arresting that at least allows you to get to the next point where you're really, you're interested, your receptive. You're like, what is that? That looks really interesting.

But, you know, there's too many other shows you see out there where they're just like five people standing around because they feel like they have to show the whole. Well, they're all laughing, too, so that means it's funny. It just becomes generic and it just washes over. Or Mandy Moore is crying and then it becomes a big hit. So I know that he is obviously now Lando Calerician. And I've read that that doesn't necessarily slow down when Atlanta's season two comes back, but is like a factor. But what can you tell us about season two?

Anything? I mean, like, is it just sort of in its most basic creative embryonic stage? Yeah. I mean, they are at Donald's house right now. writing, but, you know, it's going really well. And I think, you know, we'll have all the scripts done before he goes off to Cloud City. Yeah. And, and, but, you know, we, you know, we don't have any, you know, we haven't heard, we haven't read any scripts yet.

But, you know, Donald's really excited about it. And we, you know, we had a, you know, one other thing about the show that I think is interesting because we were just talking about this with Donald yesterday. you know, and he talked about how a binary the internet is, right? Like with everything, it's either love it or hate it. There's no sort of middle ground

and I think what's so kind of cool about the show is that it's all kind of very you know, somewhat gray and in the middle and kind of getting a feeling that is neither you know all the way in one direction

or the other, it's like the anti-Zeros and Ones kind of show, which I thought was a really cool way of looking at it. I want to talk specifically about something in the finale, which is just another pretty magnificent episode. There's a scene when Erne has failed to get his jacket at the strip club, and he walks up to Paperboy and Darius on a couch in the middle of the field. And it's an incredible, beautiful shot. It's the kind of shot that you can only get in a show that is set in a part of a

place that is filmed in a place and filmed by people who have a sense of that place. I immediately feel transported to it. You can sort of hear, like, you know, I'm thinking also the scene when they're waiting for the Uber driver and you sort of hear the underbush, you hear crickets and you feel like you're somewhere. But specifically in that scene when he walks up, nothing happens in that scene. They're eating sunflower seeds. Darius is wondering about what's the profit margins on them. Earn asked for Alfred's phone. Alfred's hot and doesn't want to get up. They're hung over. That's the scene. I'm wondering that scene on paper must look like less than nothing.

It's just people talking about stuff and everything that makes that scene. It literally like the goal of that scene is earn getting Alford to give him a ride. And everything, so and yet the sum total of it is everything I love about the show. That takes a level of confidence that I'm just blown away by that that confidence exists in season one of something new. Well, it was, I mean, it's how many shows have it have a, have a scene where two people are, talking at the same time. And so I re-watched the finale the other night with my wife. And I sort of, this time I was only listening to Darius, talk about sunflower seeds.

It was fantastic. Second experience. That's a good scene too. But so by the time that came around, by the time you're getting those scripts and you see, here's a scene where they're just on a couch, at that point, you know they can pull this off? Yeah. I mean, yeah. And I'm also not, we're not.

sort of getting into the minutia of like, oh, how are people going to know in this scene? It's such a, at this point, you know, it's such a visual show. And you have the confidence that these guys, these guys know what they're doing. And so most of our thoughts on anything are more at the 10,000 foot level, you know, of just making sure it's achieving what it wants to achieve and not getting caught in the weeds of like, how are you going to, two people are talking. What's going on here? Yeah, right.

In general, when talking about TV, one of the things that I'm passionate about is it's pretty exciting and fascinating and ultimately rewarding to watch small degrees of failure because TV is the one medium where those failures can be addressed and rectified and fix and you can watch someone fail a little bit and succeed bigger and take swings basically and get another chance at bat. What is, and you don't have to speak specifically about it. Atlanta, just in general if there's a internal philosophy about this, what is the FX attitude towards little failures, if that makes sense, where you know an episode, you're invested in a person

or a couple people and a creative vision, and you know that episode seven might be a little weak or might be a little bagger. They might have bitten off too much that they can chew. Like, that's part, is that part of, is that baked into the process? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's baked into the process, but, you know, don't, don't overreact, you know, just relax, you know, like, try and help the creator make that episode, the best episode it can be. And, you know, hopefully know that this is not going to be this thing that's going to, I think if you're worried that, like, oh, my God, this is going to be the episode where it's going to make people jump out of the show, you know, you're just going to play tight and, you,

you have to just find a way to be more constructive and not kind of overly worry about it. And at the same time, don't bury your head in the sand. And I think if we see, you know, someone really walking down the wrong path, we're pretty vocal about it, but it's collaboration. I was curious about, we can start talking a little bit, like more generally, unless you have... Just one last one. Yeah, yeah.

The BAN episode. for people who don't know it by its title, that's the episode that's essentially like the BET television show. Donald Glover doesn't appear in the episode at all. He's probably the star of the show. He directed that episode. It has a lot of amazing sketches and commercials and it's just completely out there.

That was episode five, I think, of season one, something like that. Yeah, I think we read it like as the seventh or eighth, and it moved up in the order. And it moved up. That's even more. But I think it's like, also by that time, you're like, okay, you know, like this seems totally crazy. And that's also a two-episode run where I think he only appears in one scene. What's the, what's the, how were you when you read that?

I mean, obviously excited because it turned out great, but is at that point in the collaboration when you're reading these scripts and you're all, you're fully invested, are you just, are you as excited as we are as viewers? Or there has to be some, some old TV muscle in your brain being like, wait a second now. Yeah. You know, if you're not, if you're not a. little bit scared or nervous or just like really like then maybe you're not you know maybe you're playing it too safe right and so I think on all these shows have been moments where you're like whoa like

this is um you know it's funny and I think it still is sort of continuing the paper boy storyline and so I understand how it fits in and it's funny and it's you know and it has a point of view. And so, you know, just because Earn doesn't appear in it doesn't, you know, like, as long as it's as long as it's compelling, I think it's, it's good. And, you know, one thing we always say is like,

just don't, just don't be boring. Just be compelling. Be surprising. And that's, you know, as a viewer, that's really what I want to do. I want to be surprised and feel like I'm in the hands of a really good storyteller. And if I feel those two things, I'm in. I think, though, that it almost, it's,

it doesn't get talked about enough about what this show is that there is a workplace comedy in it. There is a will there or won't they in it. There is a degree to which it's working off of like the friends model of like people hanging out. There's a lot of traditional television stuff inside of Atlanta. It's just all this formal invention and I think so much style and so much of this point of view, which is just the most remarkable thing about it. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Sona. Sonos is the smart speaker system that streams all of your favorite music to any room or every room.

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for 25% off your very own blurb photo book. That's blurb.com slash watch and code watch at checkout for 25% off. Blurb, make a book, leave your mark. I wanted to ask you whether or not you have been inundated with people coming with their Atlanta yet. And, you know, if you are interested, just think about it.

Vancouver. Four white guys opening up a hipster hot dog truck in downtown Vancouver. You're looking at me. I'm loving it. I'm listening. But do you feel like in a copycat industry? Like you're going to start seeing a lot of like... We have, we're deep in development on Winnipeg.

Great. Sorry. I can't do. It's just like minor league hockey players who hang out of, yeah. Yeah. You know, look, I mean, I think what I would hope is the trend, right, is just more of these kind of autot, you know, real strong points of view show. And, like, I mean, part of my, our jobs, you know, is to stay ahead of it

and not kind of copy sort of what we've done and try and find something new and original. So, you know, look, I've found that almost everything we've done, success or failure, has, begets something else that comes in. And I feel like it's, it's, I mean, for me, it's been like a 14-year process. And I think, you know, John Langraf, Eric Schreier and I, who have been working together for over 12 years, you know, it's been this, it's been this long process. But, you know, It's brick by brick and things Beget other things And so

Yeah, this will This will lead to something It's not going to be the thing that you think it will But it will That's not a hard no in Vancouver So it's not a hard no It's not a pass It's definitely like

He wants to develop with you I think it's what I heard there Flinking yellow I think a lot of widespread panic In the soundtrack A lot of mid-90s That's a hard no now Virginia jam bands

This is the guy who had the paper boy track as an mp3. It was my ringtone. So I feel like TCA a year ago. You got a member. Eight string base. It's coming back. You got to target your pitches, man. Well, I think one thing that people don't appreciate fully is that the job that you guys have is

you are obviously in the weeds day to day. You are making a show like Atlanta and overseeing it being on the air. But the bulk of your job is two years down the line, right? I mean, we're talking about how Atlanta has affected TV in 2016. but you're already deep in conversations about what you'll have on the air in 2018 and potentially beyond. So if people are being so reactive and saying, well, you do Atlanta, I'll do Mobile. Like, that's that time they've already passed, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, right. But it still is, I do think each show will lead to something else. And look, and we have, you know, look, to me, I think the show that, to me, is the most like Atlanta. in my mind is better things. You know, in that it's someone's amazing, you know, sort of incredible original point of view. And so, I mean, we're just so,

it's kind of amazing that we ended up with both of these shows at the same time. I mean, I think we wanted to, we didn't want to stack them back to back on the same night. I think we had the ability to put them on, on the same week, but on different nights. And so they can sort of co.

exist and be their own shows, but I think those shows remind me a lot of each other. And I mean, that's more what I, you know, look, would I like more shows with diverse cast and creators? That'd be fantastic. And hopefully we'll find those. But, you know, what Atlanta, to me, is just, it's more just, you know, someone's singular original vision. More of that would be great.

One thing that we've been talking about a lot, and I'm sure this, we're not the only people having this conversation, is that. the TV that feels most vibrant and exciting in 2016 tends to be in the half-hour format or in the anthology series format. Now, it's no coincidence then that your network excels both of those and has invested heavily. It's almost like good investment. You are well protected for whatever the market was demanding this year because you invested heavily in those particular stocks. What are your thoughts now on the state of the drama or the hour-long show? I mean, don't know since there's as much drama in Atlanta and in some of your half hours as anything else.

Maybe we don't use those terms anymore, but the serialized continuing hour-long show. Yeah, I mean, look, part of why we got into the limited series business was, you know, there was something that was feeling stale and predictable about the sort of six years, a 60-70-hour movie. And, you know, one thing we tried to, you know, we were hearing. pitches of things that, you know, well, maybe this could be two years, maybe this could be three years. And instead of letting the business dictate the creative, we thought, okay, let's let the creative dictate the business. We'll figure out how to make a business out of limited series.

And, you know, it's sort of, that's blown up creatively in a good way, the one-hour format, I think, the way these half hours have by really, by sort of saying, well, this show can be anything it wants to be. So let's do this. Let's do this. And I feel like the feeling of watching Fargo is so exhilarating because, you know, how many, how many 10-hour movies have you seen in your life, right? Right.

Not that many. And so it's just, it's a different, if it's a different animal. And so, like, we constantly, we, look, we'll, someone will figure out how to, look, there are a lot of real, still really good dramas on our network and on other networks. and someone else will figure out a way to do a continuing scripted one hour that's as mind-blowing as any of these other shows that we're talking about. Is there a reason? Do you think that it's just something that dovetails with the kind of shattered attention spans of people that we have now, that people are more willing to experiment with their time with like a 32-minute show or a 28-minute show than they are with a

50. I mean, we talk about this all the time, but even with something that we adored like Night of or, I'm trying to think of another example, but like, you know, solid 57 minute runtime, like, in a world that is our world, that you're just like, this is just a lot. It feels daunting. It feels daunting. Where I'm like, oh, I've got an Atlanta on the DVR or something like that. I'm like, great. Or even starting something. You know, it just feels less. No, agree that sometimes it just feels like, you know, so much work to catch up. on a show like the Americans. But well worth it.

Yes. I've just been in the basement with Vancouver just like shaping. You know what I mean? When I come out, I can't wait. I think it still comes from, you know, our instinct is just finding something really different and original. And so, like, I think something feels really different and original. and it's,

it's an hour, you know, each week, people will find it, and I think cherish it if it's, if it's different. And I think there's, you know,

not only are you competing with every show on the air right now, you're competing with every show that's on this season. You're competing with every show that's ever been made in the history of television.

You're competing with every movie that's ever been made. And so I think it's less... And video games and Facebook. Yeah, you've got to just be, you got to, give people a reason to pick this show and watch this show. And I think, look, if you can tap into something that's hitting the collective consciousness,

I think that really helps, that you can have a conversation about it. And I think, you know, Atlanta feels like one of these shows where it reminds me of an hour that people are watching on a weekly basis and talking about that episode. And that's so cool that, you know, there can be that conversation about shows. and especially, I just don't remember the last time people are, we're talking about a half-hour show on a sort of a weekly basis as if it's like Game of Thrones. Like on a podcast almost.

Yeah. You just sort of answered my question, but I mean, like we talk about this sort of fake TV championship belt that we give out. And I think that at this point, Atlanta has been like standing on top at the end of the cage match showing everybody the belt for about eight weeks now. But this show somehow, and I haven't been able to articulate it to myself, I don't even know if we've been able to articulate to each other, so maybe you can. How did it do that?

How are we at a point where a 30-minute dromedy, for lack of a better description, or comma, you know, like whatever, is able to feel like Thrones or Lost or Sopranos? And actually, you know, I had the op. I think that I wouldn't have wanted to binge Atlanta. I wouldn't have wanted to watch Atlanta in a five-hour burst. No, because I don't, look, I mean, people will do it, and I think they'll still really enjoy it, and I don't want to, you know, discourage anyone from binging it who hasn't seen it. But I think that the weekly process really allows you the distance to appreciate the specific episode, you know, because it is, you know, and what I think, one thing that was so great about the finale

is that, you know, because some of the episodes are so different, you know, you know, you know, you sort of forget that you got launched on a journey at the beginning. And somehow you didn't even realize you were on a plane. And all of a sudden you get to the end, you're like, oh, my God, they just landed this plane for season one. And I didn't even realize it. And I mean, I remember watching the rough cut and elevators comes on. And I like a tear popped out of my eye.

I'm just like sort of both the emotion of like being immersed in the show and just sort of being in awe of, oh my God, you know, we really told a complete story. You know, it was a five-hour movie in a way. There's a...

You saved outcast to the end, which was just... That song to... Italian chef kissing fingers. Yeah. I think that song for a lot of people represent something. And there's like a lot of like sort of just echoes through...

You're watching it. This character is listening to this song, but also that person, like Glover is playing. playing it. So you're kind of like are aware of the process of it's happening. And that song is about the sort of how hard it is to be creative, a creative person and want to express yourself in the world. And then you see this active expression. And you're like, they did it. I can't believe it. And this song is playing, which is both something I listened to, you know, in, you know,

15 years ago and I'm listening to now and I'm listening to it within the show that I love. I mean, there was a lot of layers to that experience. I think a lot of my friends were just like, holy shit, And if you listen, obviously, if you listen to the lyrics of the song, it's very connected. But let's say you didn't. It's a feeling, right? And it's a feeling that is perfectly appropriate for that moment. It's almost like score for, you know, what urns going through right now. So, you know, it hits you with sort of both barrels.

I think the metaphor you got about the plane fits perfectly with what you were saying about what you want and what I think many people want in their television, which is, and it's a trick. I just wanted to go back to it because it's trickier, I think, than it even sounds. which is you want to go on an unexpected journey, but you want to trust the driver. Like you want to get on a plane to an unknown destination, but you've got to have faith in the pilot. Yeah. You would never get on a plane to an unknown destination.

Absolutely right. I meant the theoretical here. Yeah, right, right, right. Is Captain Mick Whitaker here? Isn't that the moment when you're going to watch flight? When you dive out of a show, maybe consciously or unconsciously, probably because you've lost faith in the pilot. Yes, and but, you know,

It's building that confidence. You want to trust someone, but you feel scared of getting burned, building confidence in someone new. I mean, that relationship sort of defines... Andy, do you ever question the nature of your reality? Whoa, nice job. Now, if elevators have been played instrumental on a player piano, I would have been like, this is really genius.

No, but that, to me, is the trickiest thing to... That balance is the trickiest thing to man. Donald, as you said, pulled it off and surprised even you in the making of it. But in the big picture, I think what this conversation has been highlighting is that sort of surprise. unsettling the audience is one of the last cards left in the deck. And there's a way to do it that is, I think, the cheap way, it's pure shock. And I'll say something like what Walking Dead does, to my mind is in that category.

You don't have to be on the record saying one thing or the other about it. But when we're talking about dramas, you were saying how, you know, people started to feel that that template of the 12 episodes, the six years got a little tired, you know, because there would be a, you know, a death in episode, the penultimate episode, and episode 12 would end with a nice music montage, and then we'd bring the whole gang back together again. But the other thing the limited series model does is all the sacred cows are now fair game. Like you watch a show, we sort of know now, even if it's a avant-garde drama, Don Draper is going to survive until season six or seven,

or depending on how, you know, unless the Matt Weiner fights at the studio. If it's a limited series, who knows? And then we get the chance to do it again, potentially with the same pilot. And that's a relationship that can build and can be built upon. But that is essentially a new way of engaging with TV. Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. No, no, you.

No, and it's like how many times can you go to the well of the death of someone, too? I mean, it really, it's, or murder, it's sort of has, it's lost its punch unless it's really rooted in character. And, you know, I still, the moment of the end of the pilot of. the shield is still something's forever etched in my it's the thing that that made me you know beg to go work at fx and it's you know it's it's it's one of the few holy shit moments that works on every level of like oh my god you know i can't believe this guy just did this and it tells me so much about his character and i'm still conflicted about this character even though you just did it you know and i think you know we're all

chasing to find these holy shit moments and it's it's really hard to be original there do you guys feel like so you obviously have um and i know you're only going to be able to talk in detail about certain elements of this but you know you have americans that's in multi-season you had sons of anarchy which was a long run shield was a long run is there still value to having almost like an innings eater kind of drama like that that is going to take up like a lot of time and have that long run. Oh, for sure. I mean, it's, it's, um, for, for a multi, you know, multidiv reason. It's, you know, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, finding than anything else.

And so, you know, everyone wants to find their sons of anarchy, their Game of Thrones. And so, yeah, that's still the Holy Grail. And, you know, you can't give up on that search. I can't let Nick go without bringing out my favorite subject. So Chris can put on his headphones or something. But you did mention, you know, these long-running shows tend to build audiences. They go, build acclaim. The thing about the Americans, which I still think is the best, certainly the best drama on TV.

I think I'm not sure. Atlanta and the Americans are my favorite shows of the year. And I'm not just saying that because you're in the room. But the Americans, you know, has gotten better and better in quality every year. It's gotten more and more engaging every year. The audience has not grown necessarily in any enormous appreciable ways, at least that I can divine. And yet this year, it broke through at the Emmys. And I don't even know if we had this conversation, but I certainly had this conversation with others,

that a lot of people felt that, well, the show is the show. It's as good as it is. and at this point it probably won't get the Emmy attention because for the same reason that Chris might not watch it, it takes a lot of homework to catch up. But yet this year it did break through. What was the reaction? Were you surprised about that?

Obviously you were gratified. What did that mean internally to the network? I kind of felt like Linus with the football every year. And so, you know, I think this was the year where like, you know what, I'm not going to fall for it. I'm just going to get disappointed again. But it was, you know, we were all screaming. And when the nominations came out,

I think partly it was, you know, I think when you have all these critics and people out there, you know, keeping on the meme that this is not this is a great show, this is the best show in television. I think at some point that, you know, inspires more people to catch up and watch it, or it just, you know, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy and people sort of come back to the show and they realize, yeah, this is the best show on television or one of the best shows in television. And I think it's just without that drumbeat from people like you guys

and one of us guys. One arm drummer. Kind of like Jeff Lepard. Solo drummer. Tate maybe too. You know, it just, without that drumbeat, this doesn't happen. And maybe, you know, we're also living in an age where that kind of recommendation, you know, online can really thrive. And there can be this consensus. But it's still just remarkable to me, and in a wonderful way, that a show that never lit the ratings world on fire, not only was able to able to flourish and thrive, but you've now given it, you gave it its runway. You know, you said, okay, we're going to give you two more seasons.

You're going to end the story the way you want to end it without getting into the financial weeds of how this makes sense because that's, you know, I don't think that's probably proprietary information anyway. Explain the value of that decision making and that investment for your, from your side of the desk. We joke about this because, you know, it's one of the steps of the dentist system, you know, from, it's always sending Philadelphia, but the D is demonstrate value. you.

I think a A perfect world, you have something that is both a huge, you know, critical success and a big rating success. And that's the grand slam home run. That's what you want. You're not, every show is not going to be that. And so, you know, I think you just need a show to demonstrate, you know, how value. The Americans is very, very. valuable to us.

Part of what our jobs are, we're marketing a brand of FX that by the whole roll-up of all these shows. And so if you can have a show even before it sort of broke through in the Emmy categories that

critics are talking about as being one of the best shows in television, that has value. So, you know, you can't have a whole roster of these kinds of shows. And when you say value, value in terms of representing the brand, selling the brand, attracting talent. Yeah, you're in, you know, in top 10 conversations at the end of every year.

You're, you know, you're represented in AFI's 10 best shows of the year. You're in a lot of conversations. Not this one on this podcast. No, but it is. I can see how it almost be like if you were a college football team. Right. And maybe you go like 10 and 2, but six guys get drafted. It's like, you, there's where.

ways to show what you are beyond just like we won the national championship of readings or whatever. But that's sort of a fore analogy, but I get it. But that takes the macro viewpoint that you were talking about in relation to managing the show as well. You have to take the long view as to what every piece of the puzzle means as more than just that puzzle piece. Yeah. And, you know, look, it's all a roll-up, right? We're both the individual shows, but we're also the roll-up of all these shows together. And I would hope at this point, like knowing that it's a show from FX,

at least people will stand them and say, okay, like, I'll give it a chance. I think that's why Chris wants to give you exclusive first look at Vancouver. There are other people in conversation. Oh, really? Oh, you've been talking around the town? National Geographic is very competitive on this show. That Geo? Yeah, getting indescripted.

I wanted to actually ask you one more thing before we let you go. We've been doing this future of movies package on the ringer this week where we've been talking with a bunch of different places like Blumhouse horror movies folks and, We have a piece going soon that talks a lot about basically the struggle to get what would have been the movie version of the Americans or the movie version of Atlanta or the movie version of better things like basically are almost impossible to release on a mass level right now. You have to make them in either like moonlight or you have to do you have to have Dr. Strange in it. I was wondering if over the course of the last decade and a half that you've been working with FX, whether or not you've. you've noticed that shift whether or not you've seen I mean you guys have obviously started you know you you work with incredibly talented people you have more and more talented people probably banging on your

door asking if you're interested in Vancouver or what have you like whether or not you're noticing that shift where because the movies have become kind of a proposition where it's like these blockbusters and a lot of animated fair and a lot of intellectual like you know IP that they're working on but like you guys are you guys kind of seeing a change in the landscape where television is taken over a large part of scripted drama, scripted comedy that the movies just don't have time for anymore. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, look, we've noticed it. I mean, in that lots of, you know, we'll sit down with actors who are so, you know, frustrated with the experience of, you know, serving the plot.

Yeah. You know, and I think, you know, TV could always be, you know, much more character-based. But I think, you know, it's sort of in the post-Sopranos world. I mean, the idea of, you know, a 60-hour movie, you know, who thought you could ever make a mob movie better than Godfather of Goodfellas? And, you know, I think, you know, Sopranos is in, you know, maybe it's not necessarily. necessarily all about the mob, but it's in that conversation because it's, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you know, are, are part of, you know, of part of these character dramas. And so look, yeah, no, and we feel it.

I mean, you, you know, when you're starting out, you know, the, the feature agents, you know, you know, you sort of make an inquiry about a certain actor, you know, and it's gone from fuck off to, yeah, let's, let's, let's take a look at that. script. So yeah, you can, you can, you can, you can, you can, you can definitely feel it. And it was even before the limited series stuff, which is now, you know, they're eight to 10 hour movies. It's like, well, this is just a, a chunk out of someone's time that's going to take the, the length of, of any movie. So that shouldn't affect it. And, you know, and so it's, it's, you know, you're feeling like there's a certain amount of, of parody, if not, um,

You know, I think actors are artists, right? And I think that, you know, I think there's, you know, I don't think people want to be wearing a green suit all day. No, no. And I also think that, you know, if Atlanta had been a movie and it was, you know, say the first two episodes, maybe the last two episodes, you know what I mean? And you put that together. And the Molaker commercial. Yeah, in the Mol. Or whatever you wanted to do.

And the invisible car. Yeah. But, well, you know, I, you know, what movies are, they're such a big bet, right? Right. In that you have to sort of go all in on them, just even a smallish movie just to get distributed and pay everyone. It's, it's a fairly big bet. And I think TV is still, again, we have, we have a little bit of a laboratory. We can sort of make a pilot and then, you know, see if that, if it's all working there.

and then put it on. We don't have to, it's a little more incremental as you get on the air. You don't have to spend, you know, $150 million just to see if something original can work. Unless it's about Western Canada, in which case, that's his pay-to-play deal. I think those are the numbers he's looking at. Before we let you go, anything, I'm sure you love all your babies equally, anything coming from FX soonish that we should be excited about.

We should keep on our radar. Yeah, I mean, I'm really excited about Legion and Taboo, which are coming in the new year. But Tabu's Tom Hardy. Yeah. And, I mean, it's, it. Tom and Chick Hardy, right? Chips. Chips.

Chips Hardy. Have you, did you get any face time with chips? Can Tom and Chips come on this podcast? But some of us have. I mean, Tom is so incredible in this and he's super committed. And Steve Knight is such a fantastic writer and creator. and, you know, look, on paper, you know, if you said, oh, yeah, there's a show that takes place in, you know, London in 1813, in the middle of the, you know, war of 1812, you know, about sort of a rivalry with someone with the East India Company and the crown and the colonies, you know, I said, I don't know if that's on brand. and we read this script, you know, with Tom attached.

And, I mean, it is, you know, it is so much of a sort of a show of what we do. I mean, it is, you know, it does not feel, period, even though it's incredibly authentic. And it's just Tom's fantastic. And we're really excited about it. And Legion is, you know, so much of, like, a different way to imagine a, superhero movie. And it's just so much of a character piece. And, you know, if you're out

there wondering, you know, if the love child of Wes Anderson and Stanley Kubrick directed a X-Men movie, what that would look like, hopefully, you know, you're going to get some kind of version of that. I'm interested in that. I am also interested in Taboo

quite a bit. I am also interested in pitching Tom Hardy and Steve Knight a remake of their film Locke with the Invisible Car from Atlanta. Which I think would really change. You guys. things a lot. We have to get into the FX expanded universe. That's really what's meant for right. All right, Nick Grad, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks, guys. It's a pleasure. Pleasure being here. So nice to have you. And great job, Rianski. It's just great, great job. See you Monday. Thanks again to Sonos for sponsoring us today.

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