The Watch - Ep. 97: A Tribe Called Quest, Dave Chappelle on ‘SNL,' Kanye's Saint Pablo Tour, and 'Westworld'

Episode Date: November 15, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the return of A Tribe Called Quest in the Trump era (3:00), Dave Chappelle hosting 'SNL' (20:30), the experience of Kanye's Saint Pablo Tour (24:52), and the latest episode of 'Westworld' (32:54). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, American Express card members, you do not want to miss this. Now through December 31st, there is a big reason for you to shop small at local stores in your neighborhood. Learn more and enroll your eligible card today at Americanexpress.com slash shop small offer. That's Americanexpress.com slash shop small offer. Terms apply. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio from the third timeline. It's Sandy Greenwald! Are there three timelines? We're gonna get to that. Can I choose my timeline? That's my guess. This is just, we're talking about Westworld today, but first we're gonna talk a little bit about

Dave Chappelle on SNL, Tribe Call Quest on SNL, and the new Tribe Call Quest album. Yes, Tribe Call Quest in general. I am excited to talk about something beautiful. How are you doing? How are you doing? It's cold. It's cold in here. You know, I'm good. One thing that I've learned is that if you, you've learned this too, because we saw each other over the weekend, if you decide to just take a little iron vacation from the internet and you basically quit Twitter, you quickly turn into the guy who's like, you know, it's just that I'm a vegan.

Have you guys ever considered veganism? Oh, yeah. You guys want some cashew butter. Yeah. Like you've literally become the guy who's just like, well, we don't even own a television. Have you had any experience? Since you've sort of taken this break from social media, has anybody come up to you and been like,

yo, aliens landed in Pasadena, and you're like, what? Some people have made gestures to me that I can only assume are memes that I just don't know about yet. You know, they've referenced a lot of things that I wasn't aware of. I think probably one of the reasons why... Something somebody was like, damn Daniel, and you were like, who's Daniel? What's that? What did Daniel do?

One of the reasons why I'm so cold, I think, is because I no longer have the blazing heat of a thousand takes. to warm myself. Yeah, you're both, my shirt drops. I think it's very, I think it's very healthy. I feel better. You know,

I also think, I don't even mean to pivot because, you know, who needs structure when you're doing a podcast? But I do think that certain things have brought me

some excitement and happiness. Let's talk about those things. Like Tribe Called Quest. Yeah. Obviously, a very big band for us, a very big group for us in our lives,

a Tribe Call Quest, was one of the seminal sort of golden age of hip hop groups between that really fertile 88 to 92 period that a lot of people consider like sort of the birth of contemporary or modern hip hop and in a artistic or creative high watermark for the genre although I would argue that in retrospect if you look back there really aren't really fallow periods for the genre

just depends on where you're looking and what you're doing and one of the things that's been interesting at the rear working with some younger people and talking with them and like, you know, I still, like, what's a Tribe called Quest? I know, but I still like fuck with 21 Savage. Like, I still like rap, new rap music, you know what I mean? But you are forced, I think,

I think rap, rap root planishes its ground soil. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's like, it's not necessary, like the, it's such a youth-oriented form of expression. And I think that you are often confronted with your own age and your own mortality as you move on. So, that being said, to have, a group that I associate so heavily with like a younger time in my life, come back and be so

creatively forceful is really inspiring and beautiful, if also bittersweet because it's made in the shadow of Fife no longer being with us. I agree with that. I also think that it's particularly interesting because I agree with you, I think hip hop springs eternal, but it is like much popular music. I don't mean just pop, I mean rock as well. primarily a youthful exercise, or often considered at its best as a youthful exercise.

And hip hop doesn't have, maybe it's because it's not as old as rock and roll, but it historically hasn't had the same, it hasn't welcomed the elders very often, you know? Well, it's the people have aged gracefully. It hasn't welcomed the elders, and it's really difficult to grow old in rap. Yeah.

And what's so striking to me about this album, I mean, think about the name of the album is we've got it from here, thank you, basically, right? Like, what's it called? Is that what it's called? Did I get it wrong? We got it from here. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service.

There is a sense that I, and something that I needed very much in my own life, some trusted old friends and elders coming back to literally lift up a culture, to lift up people. Jack White. And Jack White. So we'll come back to that point. But I can't believe how thrilling and inspiring this album is. I think that, you know, everybody, I think people were excited. to have a tribe called Quest Back.

I think obviously the shadow of Fife's passing looming over it was very profound and people wanted to see him celebrated. People loved his music and to have a chance to hear him one more time. But, you know, you don't get alternate timelines. So we don't know how this album would have been received had there been a different news headline last week. But to my mind, which is obviously a slightly tender place, this is a vital piece of post-Trump art, even though it was not created. Unintentionally so.

Very much unintentionally so. There's two things. There's the fact that we the people, second track on it, is essentially, is essential. Let's just stop right there. In the way that it feels, in the way that it sounds, in the subject matter, in its sort of defiant inclusiveness,

which I think is really, really moving. But you want to jump out on that? I mean, I think, I mean, I am really impressed by the production on it. It manages to capture some of the melodic and tonal stuff that the earlier tribe records, like Loen Theory and Midnight Marauders, did some of the incorporation of jazz and sort of deep. Dance hall. And that's like the, and, yeah, like the, what's that one?

Black Spasmodics was just like, oh, God, that song's so good. And I think one of the things that it does well is slightly updates that sound. It's not just like sample, sample with a drum loop. Like not that that's what they ever were. I mean, they used to play samples the way. And they were part of, they used to play samples like their instruments. And they were part of a coterie of like musicians around that time, like Pete Rock and large professor and havoc from Mobb Deep, who were able to sort of orchestrate soundscapes and songs out of found objects.

basically about a vinyl that they had picked up anywhere from a thrift store to, you know, $100 a 12-inch Japanese-only vinyl, 12-inch of a can beat. You know what you mean? This is a very spiritual record. The thing that I come away with, and it's a little bit tough, and I think Donnie Quacken his piece on the rear today was kind of grappling with this as well is that it's a little bit more, I think, by nature of how it was finished and also just by the sheer force of artistic genius, it's kind of a Q-Tip record.

It's a thousand percent of Q-Tip record. And another thing to think about is the feuding that existed between Fife Dogg and Q-Tip. You can see the Rappaport's doc pretty clear. And, you know, there was a great time story last week about how this album came to be and how haunted the surviving members still are about Fife's passing. Q-Tip insisted that everyone be physically present in his studio in New Jersey. His studio, which has bamboo floors and pink mood lighting. and just like books everywhere.

And yeah, that... Joe and Tate, take notes. That's what we want from our studio, too. That was a... It was a really big point of... It was basically an unbreakable part of making the record, is that if you wanted to... If you wrote your verse,

you had to perform it in front of other people. You had to be a part of, like, the sort of drum circle that was happening there. So I wonder if had Fife been healthier, whether he would have allowed Q-TIP to basically micromanage and essentially make this. be the creative director of this record

to the degree that he did. Yeah, it sounds like he was pretty healthy going into the process and that he wore down over the course of making the record. At least that's what I gathered from the Toray article and the Times about the making of the album. But, Q-Tip, here's the thing.

I mean, a couple other things obviously to say about the record and about the performance on SNL, which we will say, I hope, but we forget the Q-Tip is a genius. And not just as a rapper, but I remember like a couple years ago when we were when, I remember when

Kanye was making my beautiful dark twisted fantasy, and, you know, he was basically, he was, he was like running Versailles for hip-hop of just, like, bringing the greatest things from the world and the kingdoms to him in Hawaii. Q-Tip was all over that record and all over the production on a lot of the tracks that ended up being Good Friday tracks. And I remember thinking, well, of course, he brought Tri-Cold Quest on tour with him. Like, of course Kanye reaches to Q-Tip because Kanye is our age, and Tribe-Cold Quest is hugely influential. But I was still surprised that he was looking to Q-Tip as a producer, as a musician, considering Q-Tip had been kind of quiet in terms of making his own music. Despite, I mean, he has a beat on Illmatic. It's not like he is new to this. Yeah, he has drink away the pain on the infamous Mobb Deep.

But you hear this and you're like, oh, he actually is kind of a genius and a visionary and not just one of the great and in some ways underrated rappers of all time. Because sonically, this album is thrilling. Yeah, it's so rich. And it's really cool. I mean, it has everything from, like we talked about, like, reggae, dance hall, Crout Rock, funk, Jack White plays a bunch on it. Elton John. John Piano.

Tickling the Ivories. But ultimately, it's one of the great pleasures of the record is just the reintroducing yourself to Q-Tips Flow, which is probably one of my two or three favorites in the history of rap and just that, like, nasally staccato, finding, like, little pockets inside of spaces in between beats. It's just like, one of them. more original sounds that I've heard in my life and it's just so great to have that back

and Busta sounds like really good. It is wild. You think about in many ways the message, if it had come out in a non-election week, the takeaway from this record probably would have been the track with Andre 3000 who is probably the other all-time great. And he has articulated

the best, he really articulates the way the Q-tip kind of paved away for him, Farrell, Kanye, to feel like the normal guy was like a possibility to be, that's a, the normal person is an architect to be in rap music, yeah. But on that track, the track kids about basically being like,

well, we understand what kids are a little disaffected, but like older people can bring it. That's sort of the takeaway from the record to me in a lot of ways. Can you bring it? No, I can't. So I find him deeply inspiring that he can. You know, and you mentioned Buster Rhymes. Like obviously Buster Rhymes came into the public consciousness

in a big way when he, you know, when he Kool-Aid manned the beat on the scenario remix, strike-called questioneria remix. He's had a remarkably long career, but you hear him on these beats and with his friends in this studio, and Jesus Christ, he's good. Yeah. And you think about how hip-hop hasn't served him well

because, you know, with the trend chasing and him having to be on track, you know, a couple years ago there was a track that he did with, I'm in a blank on it now, it was with French Montana's on it, you know, and it's perfectly good. I enjoy it. I like listening to those dudes rap, but for Buster Rhymes to be rapping on it about being a Coke dealer,

you know, sure, maybe. Like, we can all take on different roles in our lives and in our career, but, like, this is not what he is best at. Give him the space. Let him do what he does. Yeah, I mean, he's playing his flow as an instrument. It's always been an instrument. You know what I mean?

Like, he's lyrically, like, he is what he is, and you can take a leave, like, what he says. But his, the way he wraps is inimitable, and it's actually, like, pretty prodigable. and it's talent. There's this moment late in the record. One of my favorite tracks is Conrad Tokyo, which is sort of this nonsensical jazz odyssey. And Fife is on it, and Fife's wonderful. And then after Fife comes Kendrick Lamar,

who attacks a rhythm and a beat like Q-Dip, like an Andre-3,000, you know, and is just like soul-elevating. It's so exciting when he comes onto the track. And one of the best things about it is that they put Kendrick on that track. They didn't put him on, like, disgeneration, which is this, like, wonderful celebration of what tribe has always sounded. Yeah, yeah. They put him on this spacey, weirdo odyssey,

and they put him next to Fife. And I feel like you could never do more of a... It's hard to imagine a bigger tribute to Fife. To a guy who was, I think, often unfairly dismissed, you know, as kind of a jokester and a party rapper in some ways, Fife. And then you put him next to this guy, many people consider to be a modern-day poet,

and they sound great next to each other. Oh, yeah. Also, like, what a gift to have Fife just say, like Tony Romo hit and witten. Like just a few of these things that you kind of knew that he could still do. I can't, I'm still,

I'm floored how good the record was. I'm, and then to have them be back this week, to have them be on SNL and to seek you to... Before we go to SNL, can I ask you a quick question? Favorite Tribe album. Oh, I was gonna, yeah, I was gonna bring this up.

So, Midnight Marauders. Me too. You too? Yes. I thought that was gonna be a little contentious. Favorite Tribe song. Oh, Jesus. You've got to prepare me when we do this stuff.

I mean, lyrics to go maybe? That's one I like a lot. I'm going with scenario LP remix, or the remix of the scenario that was the original version with hood on it before he died, and it was much different version of it. But I still remember the first time I heard it on WPRB. Shout out to Princeton taping it late at night on there.

rap show on like a Wednesday night and I always thought it was like a dream that I had before I finally found the vinyl of it like a year or two later or years later but that is like you should we should say one of the things that like you knowing that track and having access to it on putting it on a mixtape for me was that's essential yeah that was like people are like what can you it was like the hunger games like what can this new person bring to the friend group society you're like well I'm not so good with like making fire but I do have the scenario remix though that I had that It was like a tape of a PRB broadcast that then, you know, like tapes did, broke. The tape came out tape.

And I was like, that's just... You let your tape rock till the tape popped. And it wasn't until they started doing jive reissued a bunch of 12 inches of their stuff. And that was on there. I was like, well, my life. Life's complete. I mean, I would say high school was, for me, was defined by Midnight Marauders. Cypress Hills Black Sunday was kind of big in high school.

I know. I know. I'm not always proud of everything, but this is a safe space. Over the first, the self-titled Cypress Hill record? Yeah, Black Sunday was a big... The first one was better, but the second one came out when I was definitely driving in cars more. And Wutang, and Wutang, the first Wutank record. Let's talk about SNL. Wait, last point. Yeah. I just wanted to say, like, I think we probably said this when we were talking about Fife on the podcast, but, you know, the day that the fourth tribe called Quest album drops in July of 96, That was a foundational moment in our friendship.

Yeah, that was when we met. We ran to each other on the street. Yeah, in Philly. It was going to the midnight sale. Yeah, and I was trying to decide whether or not to see train spotting. For the 19th time. Yeah, right. It's mind-blowing to me if this album is good and that we have it right now and we kind of need it.

And it was a very moving performance on S&L this weekend. It really, I mean, that's the other thing. Like, it's interesting to see the elders come back and to see basically Q-Tip beyond that state. and control the stage and be very inspiring with the tracks they chose to do were very telling as well. So you've already like mentioned, the thing I think we can go into here is that like you've mentioned a couple of times the idea, this idea of post-Trump art and I think that that is going to be both a interesting stage for art to perform from but also an albatross around

its neck and you know you can make the argument that everything from To Kiss a Butterfly and Black Messiah to like Fugazi's the argument, which came out, I don't know, like 10 years ago or something, you know, that's all relevant art in a post-Trump world. And, you know, I mean, I think you can make the, you, it's important to view things for what they are sometimes. Yes, but I also think that one of the themes in this conversation and in a lot of things going forward is when I listen to the new tribe album and I'm like, oh, how prescient. Wow, they really are aware of like a mood in the country that other people missed. and I'm thinking said about Chappelle and Chris Rock in that sketch in Saturday Live this week where all the white people are shocked.

We talked about privilege last week. It's part of the cultural conversation to use words like that, rightfully so, probably. No greater privilege than to be completely shocked when the world doesn't work the way you want it to do. So I completely agree with that. I mean, the work is the work, and then the way it's received

is often a very different thing. Right. But Saturday Live is in a particularly interesting, because it is supposed to be this, it's supposed to reflect something, I think, and ideally it's supposed to reflect something, and what it reflects is it changes, depending on the cast, depending on the times.

Obviously, Chappelle, I thought it was like Chappelle. Like, he's just, like, one of a kind, and I laughed a lot, and I also thought a lot. It, you know, it remains me seeing how, I don't really know how I feel about the show itself. And I think that the show tries to have it, it's cake and eat it too, a lot. I'm not so sure, like, Saturday might have been a little early for that. I couldn't watch it at all this fall.

I didn't watch any of the Alec Baldwin sketches. I just wasn't feeling that even then, even though they may have been good. Just because it was like you're making a comic character out of it. I just wasn't ready to start a lot. I don't know. I mean, I just didn't want more. You know, I felt so saturated already with, everything that we're going through

and continue to go through. In the opening, and I haven't seen any takes, because I'm off, man, I'm off the grid. I'm basically just eating potatoes that I cooked myself and grew myself. I could just say Westworld theories to you and you just feel like sounds good.

Amazing. Tell me more. But the Kay McKinnan opening, I don't know how I feel about that. I think I feel pro and con. The thing that struck me when I watched it was I saw, the stage, when the camera swoops in in a way that it usually doesn't on the monologue stage, which is what it was basically unadorned other than the piano.

And it swooped down, and I looked at the stage, and the stage looked mad scuffed up. And that was my takeaway from that whole thing, because it made me feel very charitably and kind of moved about Saturday Night Live in general as an institution. Because for all the things that change that you talk about, that stage stays there. and it is a platform. It is a soapbox, and it can be for one thing, it be for something else.

It was, it is a live, electric place that Dave Chappelle can parachute in from self-imposed exile. Yeah, from rural Ohio.

And own, you know, in a time when, I guess he wanted to do it or we wanted him to do it and it just worked, you know, when people can just show up there.

And I liked that part of it. I was also like, holy shit, Kay McKinan, very talented person, which I already knew. I guess the feeling I had from that, opening was the same sort of gut punch a little bit nausea that I think a lot of people

have had, you know, they clearly didn't know what to do. And that is an interesting thing for them to have wrestled with, whether it was successful or not. Then Chappelle comes on, I just like, you know what, sometimes we need a hero. And he is, it's crazy that he was gone. I mean, he is one of the greatest stand-ups of all time. he's one of the greatest just charismatic presences. You know, you just kind of want to be around him and hear what he's going to say.

And I remember reading about when he returned to the stand-up stage, he was doing like four or five-hour marathon sets, right? And sometimes he was just sitting there smoking. I would watch those shows, you know? I would watch those shows. And that he came back and did that and was so funny and so like just slow-pitch effortless when he was just like, imagine, he's like, yeah, imagine how hard this job isn't doing it while black.

And he just like let that ride for a second. It was a tonic. I mean, I don't know what I was to say. You know what I kind of like about Chappelle is that sometimes he fucks up? Or sometimes he... Like when he went to Africa and canceled his show?

Or he was just like riffing. You know what I mean? Like I love riffing as art. And I think that you know, we were up, we had a bunch of... I think I don't really think of it happening as much now.

Although I'm sure I'm wrong of people. I mean, Kanye is pretty close to this, but it's this idea that you're working it out in public, that you're like playing with ideas and that it's not a pure entertainment play, that it is like a creative expression play,

that you're working something out and that you need the crowd to be the canvas, but that you're not necessarily there for their pure enjoyment. And I think that partially, because of like the corporatization of mass entertainment just never stops and never stops getting bigger and bigger. The degree to which we expect professionalism or showmanship or a bow on something is really like, you know, and especially when you know, interestingly enough,

I mean like, it's very hard for television to do that. It's hard for us to like watch an episode of television and be like, oh, they were working on some stuff there. It's interesting. We're generally pretty much like that didn't hit expectations. It's hard for us to accept that. Yes. But I think in general, that's why TV is more interesting to me, certainly in terms of covering it, participating in movies, because it is a work in progress. That's interesting. Okay, yeah, right, because like the actual, by nature of the fact that it is a season or there are multiple episodes, really.

And you can't be perfect. Okay. So, whether it's Kanye kind of ranting, quote unquote, which I think became, like, you know, that is what it is. But then, you know, when we were growing up, there would be just, like, I mean, this is a really weird example because it's not a perfectly, it's not perfectly aligned with politics of like the comparison to be it Chappelle or Kanye but I remember like those years after Kurt Cobain died like watching Courtney Love and it was definitely like warrior

voyeuristic and it was sort of ghoulish to say like this is the grieving person that we're just going to kind of make a public spectacle but you could also tell that she was sort of working out a lot of her own grief in public as a public celebrity and that's not something that like even happens anymore it seems like no and and that's one of the things that makes I mean, I think that's a good example. I think it's a unique, it is separate from Chappelle because I think that stand-up comedy somehow of all of these different media forms,

including celebrity as a form of media at this point or a form of a skill set or whatever, stand-up comedy, that is what stand-up comedy is. It is living and dying in equal measure, not even metaphorically. So to see Chappelle, you know, the act doesn't change. It's like, you know, the Beatles,

meet the Beatles, So when they came back for Sergeant Pepper, they were dressed a little bit differently. Chappelle's just still on stage of the microphone. All these comedians throughout their career, they just got the microphone. That doesn't change, and that's kind of amazing. So to see Chappelle come back out, he's older. He looks different. He looks older.

His voice was a little, the timbre of his voice. He was a little shankier almost at times. Raspier. There's an uncertainty to it. There was even a feeling like, does he even want to be here? Is this what he wants to do? And then when he said, I think I need to say this thing. and he told that monologue about going to the White House,

you know, for him to be able to just play the notes of audience expectation so expertly, these are the moments of, I mean, it's exciting. These are the moments of thrilling and artistic anything that I think that we were searching for last week. When we went and saw Pablo a couple weeks ago, we saw it. I was going to bring this up to since we never talked about this. We saw the St. Pablo tour. Yeah, and he has like a very, like, when he does run. away. It's like an extended intro

of just the piano note if it gets to play. But we always kind of like hit each other and we're like, remember the VMAs. I think it was the VMAs or the VMAs? He debuted the song at the VMAs. And he debuted this song that no one had heard of. And brought out Pusha, who was at that point not like a

major, like mainstream rap figure, but was like sort of a cult hero. For him to, for Kanye West to bring Pusha T out on stage in a salmon suit that night was as if he had reached into our bodies and pulled out our heart like Athena from the head of Zeus. I was like, I can't believe this is real.

Playing an MPC while ballerinas danced in the background. And that was like, this is happening. This is amazing. This is like a beautiful work of art that's unfolding in this award show. And those kinds of moments are too far and few between. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that. So it was beyond anything, like any recriminations you might have for SNL, any feelings you might have that SNL were complicit in normalizing.

Trump by having him on and joking about him when it could have just been like there's nothing funny about this person. Yeah. I don't know that that would have helped the election change the election, but it's certainly I think that they have to reckon with that, you know? One thing that I, one thing about the events the last week that I feel confident in saying, despite not knowing if aliens have indeed landed or anything else has happened in terms of the news.

They're super nice. That's good here. I could use a little non-human kindness. They're just like, what's up with Westworld fans? There isn't one thing that made any of this happen. It is many things that led us to wherever we are at this moment. And I don't want the reductive thinking of like 140 characters saying, if only this hadn't happened, because it's a culmination of many things.

One last thing, we had a great time at the drink. If you thought we were going to end up on Kanye, feel free to drink. I know I am. We had a great time at the St. Pablo Tour. It's really visually stunning. We saw it at the forum. Is it over? I think it's over now, but the unique thing about this tour was from the maximalism of the Jesus tour.

This was just our dude on a floating stage with lights below it, floating over basically a mosh pit. And for us, I think we were both really just like moved and awe to the spectacle of people losing their minds in a, no, not almost, in a punk way. In a way we would see it like, you know, if you went to like the first Unitarian Church in Philadelphia, for these songs and for this one guy. It was, I don't mean this glibly, to say it was quasi-religious that was intentional. I mean, it did look like a church.

Saint is the key word there. Saint is the key word. One thing, though, I wonder about going forward is I don't, I wonder what a reaction would be to that now because the intensity and mania of the Pablo record and the Pablo Tour and of Kanye, the trip he's been on and been taking us on. It's so cerebral. It is just in his head, basically. We are buying tickets to go along this journey with him, literally deep into his fucked up psyche. It's not communal.

I completely 100% disagree. I want to know this. I'm just thinking stuff out loud. I think that the two albums, Yisus and Pablo, are almost the soundtrack to that concert. The concert to me clarified so much about the last. last two records. And you know, we're talking about rap aging people out and rap kind of like replenishing itself. And almost equally strange to hearing a new tribe called Quest record was seeing that show

and seeing kids who their relationship to Kanye's 808s 808s and after and not us, which is largely, I think, you know, I mean, it's the whole career, but we're defined by dropout and we were defined by black, dark, dark twisted fantasy. But those two records, to see the way that like the beat drop in blood on the leaves or the chorus of waves, it's almost like, I think it's a lot, I know that I personally, like lyrically felt like Pablo was not his finest hour, but watching it play out in a mass public spectacle,

it becomes almost like those records are the sporting event and people are collectively gathered to celebrate that event. So to me it was, you know, I did think it was quite communal. It was so communal that he put himself in darkness up on that platform. He is not the star of that show. He is the people beneath him. He's the lights went on the people belongs, celebrating it.

So it's almost like the star of the show is listening to Kanye, not Kanye. And he'll be like, you guys, we're going to just keep singing this. All the best parts of his album, like the... The drop on famous. Yeah, the drop on famous. The chorus of waves, the singing all of, you know, father, like, you know, like wait and waiting for the designer part to come in

or not, yeah, it's just like crazy, you know? It was kind of like a giant listening party in celebration of that. I think that's a really good point. And I think it's telling that he ended on ultra light beam, which is, I mean, look, this does not need to be said on this podcast. I think

Pablo is the best album of the year. I think it's the most interesting record of this year or many years. I guess what I was losing sight of was which way the lights were pointed on that stage, and that, you know, the video for Famous as an artistic statement is interesting. This stuff about celebrity is not as interesting to me

is what he does on their record with spirituality and, like, ultra-light beam. But it's also just a question of, like, what we're looking for at each moment, I guess. I want Jerobi on the phone. That's kind of what I want right now. I can't give you derobie. I can't give you robots out West.

So let's take a quick break from our sponsor. for our sponsors and we'll be back to talk about Westworld. Hey guys, just want to take a quick break to talk to you about Casper. That's a perfect mattress that sold directly to consumers eliminating commission-driven inflated prices. Its award-winning sleep service was developed in-house, has a sleep design, and is delivered in a small, how did they do that sized box? They combine springing latex and supportive memory foams for a sleep service that's got

just the right sink and just the right bounce. Plus, it's breathable design, sleeps cool at night to help you regulate your temperature while you're asleep at night. mattresses can often cost well over a $1,500, but Casper mattresses cost $500 for a twin, $850 for a queen, and $950 for a king. Buying Casper mattresses is a completely risk-free venture. Casper offers delivery and free returns with 100-night home trial. So if you don't love it, they'll pick it up and refund you everything. Get $50 towards any mattress purchase by visiting www.casper.com slash watch and using offer code watch, terms and conditions apply.

We are also brought to you by Joyable. Do you ever avoid parties or not speak up in a meeting and then regret it later? 30 million Americans will suffer from social anxiety in their lifetime. And even if you don't have social anxiety, you likely know someone who does. And Joyable could help them. Their online program has helped thousands of clients overcome social anxiety using cognitive behavioral therapy, the leading treatment for social anxiety according to all the major authorities. You get paired with a coach who is your partner throughout the program,

and they tailor the program to your specific needs and keep you motivated on track. It's available anywhere at any time so you can access it from the comfort and privacy of your own home. 93% of Joyable Clients see a decline in their social anxiety after completing a 12-week online program. The program is $25 a week after a free seven-day trial. So about as much as you spend on coffee, takeout, or a night out at the bar, and it's only 11% the average cost of therapy. For our listeners, there's a special offer. If you go to Joyable.com slash The Watch, you'll get an additional week completely free. That's Joyable.com slash The Watch.

Hello, Mr. Roboto. I love it. I can't wait. So frequent listeners of the podcast know that Andy's sympathies are maybe not totally geared towards robot. What? Robots. How dare you? Look, let's do it this way.

I can talk and you can ask questions as if you like this show, as if you're like 100% in on this show. And I can just talk about some of the theories and stuff that we're seeing and some of the kind of like. And then... And then you can... And then it can be... This is a hater-free zone for two minutes or so. And then we'll go into your part. How about that?

Can I ask you one question first? Sure. Did you like this episode? I really, really liked Anthony Hopkins in it. Okay. Me too. Yeah. And Jeffrey Wright, I thought everybody was like... We can build it together.

We can make a coalition. I'll be Arnold, though. I'm going to go fucking rogue. Well, you know... So here's some... stuff that's being talked about right now. This idea, there's two ideas I want to discuss that I've read about.

Some of it was in Joanna Robinson's excellent Vanity Fair piece that she's been writing these great pieces about it. Are those on the internet? They are. On VanityFair.com, there's also been some great stuff in Reddit. Excellent work by Reddit. Good job, Reddit. I always like to shout out Westworld Reddit.

So number one, Bernard, who we now know as a host. What? The evidence is starting to Bill that he has also Arnold. Well, because his name is an anagram of... For Arnold, yeah. What's the guy's name?

It's like Bernard Lowe, Arnold, something, whatever. There's a picture that Anthony Hopkins shows Bernard at one point that is like obviously supposed to be three people, and it's Anthony Hopkins' father and blank person. Like, nobody's there. But there's like evidence to suggest that he can't see things. He can't see things that hurt him, so that would probably be him. Right. Coming out of this, there's also the three timeline discussion.

So we have been operating under the assumption, not necessarily confirmed yet, but certainly hinted at. And if the way that the Bernard robot stuff came through, I think that this is probably the case, is that there's at least two timelines, that Jimmy Simpson is a younger version of Ed Harris. And I think that obviously he and Dolores, William and Dolores are going somewhere

where there will be, he is going to lose something, whether it's Dolores or his faith in humanity. He already lost his shirt. He already lost his shirt. Jimmy Simpson, get that core work, dog. Way to go, bro. Look at good, Simpson. Come a long way since playing with gerbils on House of Cards.

That's what I was going to say, too. Or drinking milk on it. It's always sunny in Philadelphia. Good for you. He is going to have something happen to him. Now that they've gotten to this special place, or they're arriving at this special place where no, only you have to ask the dusk, nothing ever comes back from.

Ghost Nation! And whatever happens, we'll turn him into what Ed Harris has become, which is somebody who's obviously trying to base, destroy Westworld slash never leave there. And a guy who likes to wear day scarves. Yes. Yeah. Quick note to all those involved

of the West World. Love you guys. The Gatling Gun thing is like a weird touch where that's just like something that happens every episode. Yep. Didn't need it two weeks in a row. So there's that but this idea that there are three timelines. So what's the third? It's

the scenes in which Bernard is talking to Dolores. So The idea is basically that Bernard is Arnold, I think, in those scenes. And that that is like the original moment that Arnold notices that there is this potential for or this new for. Is he a host then? No, I don't think so, personally. I think that there is an argument that he could be. But when you're like, why is he giving her Alice in Wonderland?

Why is he talking to her in a way that might cause it? cause that kind of these reveries that they eventually have. I would like to say that I almost hope that's the case because otherwise the logistics of how did they pull her out in the middle of these different scenes. Yes. To have those conversations. Yes. It works better if those are temporarily distinct.

I don't know whether or not. Here's the issue is that Westworld is very interesting, but I don't know if they're entirely of control of it. I mean the showrunners and like the way they're making it. It's a very, I think it's a really entertaining show that is very interesting. But sometimes I don't Whereas there are some shows where you're like Breaking Bad this is like a

This is like a perfectly made watch You know, every gear is ticking in the right direction With Westworld I'm like Did you mean to do that? Or is this an accident or why are some of these people behaving Like they're on completely different shows Think about it this way Resources are limited

That is a thing That's if you work at the Delos Corporation Or if you work on planet Earth Whether you work in TV, whatever Mike Schur from Parks and Rec in the Good once told me that, like, to be a showrunner, you can probably do maybe five things well. But you have 15 things that you have to do every second of every day,

and you have to choose and you have to delegate. My fairest, most generous reading of Westworld is that all of the time they spent doing this very difficult, it's going to be dismissive if I say trickery, but narrative play or whatever they're doing, basically. And if it turns out there are two or three timelines, layering those, thinking the consequences of them through, building it out. Telling the story of what is essentially like a genre story

and giving it this sort of almost metaphysical, philosophical weight by telling it in this way. Doing all of that requires burning a lot of resources. And when you use your resources to do that, you end up with things like the writer character. You end up with things like whatever the fuck Tessa Thompson was doing last night. Now, shouts to her. I love her, whether she's

explaining Johns or writing sex toys, whatever she was doing. I think she's great. I think it's cool that they got her to be in this show. But what was it that she's doing? Because I'm trying to figure it out.

Here's what I want. And I feel like this is a fair comment to me. If there's a show that is questioning the nature of humanity, there should be, as our boss, Bill Simmons likes to say, a czar of common sense on set to be like, I know what you're trying to do here, and I get it in the outline of the script, but young

CEOs generally don't sport fuck robots in hotel rooms and then open the door naked. But why... That, that, I'm just like, you know what, nobody does that. So, one thing, one reason why she would, one reason why she would be, why

she wouldn't care what Teresa sees is if she knows Teresa's going to die. So she uses the words blood sacrifice. She sure does. And so does Anthony Hopkins. Yeah. So that would somewhat explain, like, here you are,

and now I'm going to send you into this mousetrap of trying to uncover slash sabotage for. Wasn't the robot watching, the sex robot in that case? I mean, anywhere there's a robot, we assume that you can. See, I'm good at watching the show. But I also think this. I also think you resources. You just got spied on by a sex robot. What's up with you?

She's doing it. It just got spied on by a sex robot. AMA. Catch me on Reddit. No, I think that also this idea of, you know, where you put your resources, some other things end up being

thinner or less satisfying than they ought to be. For example, the end of the episode, the moment when she says, what about this door, and he says what door? Yeah. That's terrific. That's dope. That's exciting. Like, that's one of the moments on the show, and, you know, similar

to moments in TV shows and movies, you get excited. We know when we get really, that reminded me of lost, where all of a sudden, someone says something and you get tingly, like anything's possible.

It's like a really cool Tower of Joy moment, yeah. But, I mean, not that big of a deal, but it's still. But I think other than that, I think the end of the episode and the reveal, a reveal that we all knew was coming, so it better be, you know,

dramatically viable because it's not really a surprise at this point. I thought they botched it. I thought it felt weak. I thought it felt diminished. Did you think it felt weak because there's actually no explanation.

We don't really, so if there's either, there's one of two things happening. Either they don't really know who are they setting up here. Are they setting up the corporation who is basically like, we're dissent, we don't have any interest in this tourist trap. What we like is this IP because probably we can build super soldiers out of hosts.

That's always what happens, man. You know, space miners or whatever the hell they want to do. Or is it Ford who is like, I'm actually God, this is my world and there is a natural to every season thing going on here where there's a harvest and a flood and all that. And the Delos Company's participation in this cycle is a necessary evil that I have to like these,

you know, because he was, I think he says he has made comments. Just like he said to Dolores, yes, we've met before. This has happened. Like suggesting almost this has happened before. He says to Teresa like this is like kind of every once in a while they send somebody to sort of test me. and you got close, but not that close. So then the board is like, well, you killed another one, Bob. Well, I mean, he's making a bot in that basement.

Oh, is he making her? He's cooking up some, mixing up the medicine. So I wouldn't be surprised if Teresa's back. One other question I have, and I do not intend this to be a direct criticism. It's Theresa, right? Because, sure. Yeah. I don't know.

Yes. I mean, I think so. I do not mean this is a direct criticism of this episode because there will be more episodes with which, you know, in which to explore this. But one thing about last night that I, if they don't acknowledge this or write towards this, I think that the show is lacking because, you know, every so often, again, resources, it suggests something that's kind of compelling. But because there's so many moving pieces, they steer what, they move away from the part

of it that's interesting in service of all the other things they've got going on. It's pretty noticeable that on a show with, well, there are no other African-American actors. men in the cast, that essentially Bernard is revealed to be his slave who does physical labor and brutal things on his behalf. It's not the reading I gave it. That's one of the things that came to me watching that final scene. Now, I'm not saying that that's, I'm not using the problematic word. I think that's interesting.

That's a compelling thing. you know, is it, is it, you know, author and character? Is it master and slave? What is this relationship? So they've, but they've gone there, you know, that's something that they've opened up, at least to me, and potentially to others, I don't know it because I don't read the internet anymore. Right.

But will the show have the narrative stones, basically, to continue that thought? Or is it going to be, or is it going to default to this other stuff? Or is it just going to be an accident of casting? Right. Yeah, whether they don't acknowledge it because I'm moving on. So like if Bernard was played by Sam Rockwell, like you probably wouldn't. Yo. I would watch that.

But also, you know, it's just, I'll, instead of, I'm not damning it one way or another because they could still address that in a way that might be interesting. But I do think the show often defaults to things that aren't as interesting. Well, we talk about three. And the example that I would use is I don't care about Jimmy Simpson and doors. So that's what I's going to say is we talk about three timelines. I think the bigger issue, either the bigger issue for the show. show, which is either really smart or really dumb, is that they are making at least three different

shows. And I don't mean, just mean, like, three different timelines or timelines or anything. Like, I mean three different, completely different sensibilities. There's an airbrushed, weird plot of Dolores and Jimmy, who speak almost entirely in Hallmark greeting cards to each other and have these harlequin romance novel scenes of making out and like getting ready in the morning and having seemingly impossible escapes from

odds and there's this whole plot line with the Confederados and like the border and guess who's back yeah well it's just sort of like I just like do we am I supposed to really know what's going on here or like invest in that so there's that there is the frankly quite amusing and

like well done Maeve plot with these two dipshits who she's working with but you're not really clear on why Felix and what's his face are helping her or are swearing so much and seem so bad at their jobs. So agitated. Yeah, right. So agitated.

And her sort of like escape. And that is a very typical sci-fi show like me where it's like escape from New York. You know, it's like escape from the basement of Delost and then what? You know, then that has a ton of possibilities. And then there is the Cronenberg like psychologically thrilling Anthony Hopkins, Jeffrey Wright. and Anthony Hopkins and Jeffrey Wright are bosses. They are. They really are doing a lot with a very confusing plot line.

And this is the first lector shot we got of Hopkins this week, and I have to admit, he still has his fastball. Like, that was pretty awesome. I really appreciate the points you're making because it suggests a failure of execution, not ambition. Because any one of those shows that you're mentioning. whittled down to the essence is, you know, is promising. And I think there are, I think the Mave plotline has generally been the best. Have you started to, like, get into the Mayve plot line? Because I know you were just kind of like, I don't really know what the...

No, no, no. That one, I think, is the most compelling one week to week moving forward, you know, because she is, you know, and maybe this is basic of me. But, like, she has, we know what she wants. Yeah, exactly. And she's gaining and growing and changing. And she's actually remembering who she is on a day-to-day basis. And that was actually a cool thing when he was like, you can't keep doing this.

They'll pull you out. If you keep doing this every 24 hours, they'll notice, you know. The Hopkins and Jeffrey Wright stuff, I mean, they're playing it to the hill, you know. But we're not getting 100% of anything. And it's getting watered down because of it. Yeah, they could probably stand to have like a more of a bottle episode about some one thing here. Also, it's just hard to get exercised about the corporate IP and the company. I mean, it's too clever by half.

I guess one of the reveals will be, if we're headed where we seem to be headed, that the corporation in question is controlled by Ed Harris slash Jimmy Simpson and that his interest in it comes from an engagement with Ford. His return is basically to get what he believes he's rightfully bought. Right. And so then it becomes one story. To destroy your cousin, I bet because of Dolores. But. But so then it really is one story. And, you know, presto changeo, it's been one story all along and aren't we all dazzled?

But, you know, this is, it's a chore. To me. This show's been pretty popular, I think. It's been quite popular. And obviously, it's become a sensation in terms of... Not renewed yet, which is interesting. They did get renewed today. Oh, it did?

Divorce from Westworld Insecure. This is what happens when I don't look at the internet. I'm here to tell you. I should be your internet. To be clear, there was no question. I should be your Ask Jeeves. That would be amazing. To be clear, there was no question.

I didn't mean to say that to be... No, I know. Well, the thing is, is that we've talked a lot about... I don't remember the last time. this happened where we were like yeah they're really now they have to play out the string a little bit more this has become too big of a project to just be like over in 10 episodes

or something robot Mr. Robot. Robot. Yeah I guess robots an example of that where I mean if Westworld is what Westworld is they can't wrap this up in episode 10. No. Or can they have to wrap I mean they can change it and I think that that is

that is something that they have alluded to they've alluded you know there's there's what's going on to Dallas what happens if Mayve gets out What happens if there's all these other? Who are the neighbors that Anthony Hopkins refers to? Is it other theme parks? Is it rival? What planet are they on?

Yeah, what planet are they on? What year is it? There's no disease in the real world or in the real world anymore. What does that look like? There are all these things that they could grapple with. First, they have to wrap up these three plots. This could be an example of, you know, there are shows that you and I like very much that come in so hard because they've got such a complete thought for a first season, basically.

Mr. Robot was one of them. Oddly, and I'm going to be talking about this with the show's creator, I think we'll post it, I think it's posting next week, but something like you're the worst, which is a weird comparison for Westworld. No, but it's like that's a pitch that you're like, okay, now we get to the top of this building while you're telling me what it is, and I'm like, what happens next. Then what? Then what happens next is often bringing us all the way back in the conversation. What if they're the best?

That's what you would have done as Hollywood Fixer. But we come all the way, we make a full circle in our conversation because that goes to the idea of like figuring it out in real time and watching it and that can be very creative. This robot guy. Why's he got to be so robotic? What if? What if, though, Westworld ends up being one of those shows where they accidentally put the throat clearing into production. What I mean is all of this season to me feels like heavy labor.

watching it is heavy labor. I don't enjoy it. But all of the possibility and all of the theories that you supply me with fill me with optimism. This is why I feel like the show itself is almost

secondary? Well, it's like, you know, people will talk about like I don't really need to watch the games. I can just watch a YouTube clip and read Twitter or whatever. It's like in some ways watching Westworld is only part

of the Westworld experience. So could that... So I guess what I would say is I almost feel weird more optimistic about a second season. I do too. I think also it would probably, I mean, knowing that this was not a, like, we don't know anything about the actual behind the scenes story, but it was an expensive show that took a long

time to get to air. It took longer than it should. And theoretically, you know, they would take the lessons that they've learned. They would know what they, and they would see what people are obviously responding to. I would not expect necessarily any characters who are any more resonant than the ones that we already have because I think that people are responding to their, is no door and you know

Bernard's anagram name and Dolores maybe being alive three different timelines do you would you be satisfied

with this season if the end of the season the reveals are what we all think they are already like Maeve comes out at the 57th and seventh F stop Mave emerges into

Billy Flynn's long half-time walk and it's just like a long cross cut cut got it Yeah. No, like if the season ends with the revelation of the timelines as we suspect. Yeah, I think that if...

Or does it need to get us, give us all that, and then the last little, oh, the light in the hatch went on, you know, to make the lost analogy. There's one more thing that's going to quote Steve Jobs. It's going to keep us coming back. Yeah, I like it. I like where you're going with this. Do you need the extra thing to be satisfied? Personally, I think that I hope that the people who are. or making the show are five steps ahead

of the people who are watching the show in terms of figuring it out. And I hope they're like, you guys are all right. And here it is the culmination of everything you've talked about. Because if you have to wait a year for the second season to come back to answer or to basically finish

what people are already projecting, look, and that's just the game. If you want to not have it be that way, then like... Give us something else to look at. David Milch write it. And I don't mean that as a shot. I just mean just have, have it have...

You have to give us something else. He's still in West Dillon. They're going to win the states or they're not going to win the states, it's not why you watch Friday Night Lights. If you want to watch Westworld and you want to watch it for more than, is it an anagram, what timeline is it?

Then you've got to have the goods. This is not just a good ending to our podcast. This is the future of our country, I hope, because what we did today is we bridge to chaos. We bridge the divide. Working across the aisle. Andy, I will not talk to you Thursday. No.

Thursday, Sean Fentany and I will be doing a special movies pod. We'll be mostly talking about arrival. Also probably moonlight, Manchester by the sea Save me some Manchester Because I saw that Yeah I'm never gonna recover

But I saw that We did that big feature of movies Yeah because I'm out I'm going to New York City man Bye bye That's it That's how you ended Cold World Buransky

Thanks again to American Express Hey American Express card members You don't want to miss this Now through December 31st There is a big reason for you to shop small At local stores in your neighborhood Learn more and enroll your eligible card today at Americanexpress.com slash shop small offer. That's Americanexpress.com

slash shop small offer. Terms apply.