The Watch - Ep. 98: 'The Andy Greenwald Podcast' With Stephen Falk

Episode Date: November 17, 2016

Andy Greenwald talks to Stephen Falk, creator and showrunner of 'You're the Worst,' about the show's third season finale, its future, and taking creative chances. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Andy Greenwald podcast. Hello, my name is Andy Greenwald. This is my podcast. Great show today. I was joined by a brilliant TV writer, a good guy, and an active Twitterer. Stephen Falk is the creator and a showrunner, executive producer of the FXX comedy You're the Worst, which just finished a really exceptional third season last night. Stephen was nice enough to come in and talk about many things.

And I promise, if you start listening to the interview, we eventually do talk about You're the worst and the third season of you're the worst. Before that, we maybe talk a little bit about the dangers of the internet and our political climate. So feel free, trigger warning. Fast forward through that if you need to. But it was terrific to talk to Stephen. I hope, I assume if you're listening to this, you've listened to You're the Worst.

You've watched You're the Worst. But always a pleasure to talk about television with someone who has very strong opinions on it in addition to making a career there. So without further ado, let's get right into my conversation with You're the Worst creator, Stephen Falk. Yeah, let's talk about it. So now we're recording. You now we're recording.

You said right before we, oh, Stephen Falk, welcome. I'm going to do an intro before you. So people won't be totally flabbergasted. You can do that thing of, hey, I'm appearing at Laffers in Iowa right now, and I'm in my motel room, but I had a conversation with Stephen. What a great night at Chuckles. Yes, and then I'll play a little bit of bluegrass on my own personal acts. You said that you needed to keep your phone away from the mic today

because you're getting a myriad of hate tweets because you said some stuff about the first baby elect chiefs. I said one thing. I just said his eyes looked cold and dead. Fair. But this was actually, the fact that you said that, I feel like that's buttressing my decision to quit social media completely. So tell me what happens.

So the results are rolling in. You can tell right away like me, it's not good. Like immediately, first state. You're like, oh. It was a particularly big. disastrous day for America and civilization, but really let's make it about what this is about, which is about me. And your relationship to the internet.

My wife had left town that day, so I was just, I was at home with my child and I needed to protect her. Because that is our most primal responsibility. And so much of that night was spent huddled in her room like watching Peppa Pig while my phone is buzzing and I'm trying to look at it realizing the world is ending, which was a very disturbing thing. But I also, like, in that moment, I did have one, because I also didn't eat for 24 hours, so I had this, like, one moment of intense clarity. Wait, why didn't you eat for 20 hours? Because I was so nervous, and then it got worse and

worse, and I forgot to eat. Oh, my God. And I had this moment, or I realized how unhealthy I had been anyway for the previous six months, because I had not gone four minutes without checking my phone just to have, like, Josh Marshall or the 1600 guys, or anyone reassure me. Right. Yes. And then I was like, but wait, so if no one knows anything, why am I sending my own insecurity out of the world just to have it echoed back to me. Like, what if I just, what if I just did a little self-care here? And it's helped. I feel much better. Yeah. I mean, I feel like in that scenario that sort of, you know, the faction of the, the

populace who need, like, cruel big daddy Trump to reassure them that they'll be okay. Right. That was Nate Silver and 600 guys and Princeton and all those things for you. Yes. Yes, we all need a big daddy of some sort, even if they're smaller daddies. And the other thing was... Look to the helpers, as I said. That actually, did you tweet that?

That may have been the last tweet I saw Stephen. You sent me out on a high. No joke. That was, maybe it was the Xanax, too, but that was ringing around in my head that night. But I also feel like this. And then we can move on to talk about your excellent television show. You're the worst. I also feel that after this happened, I needed to just sit with it,

and I couldn't go back and get myself agitated again. up because we got to do this for like four years, not four days. And I just didn't want to be tweeted at. I didn't want it. No, I absolutely get it. I did something that is not as brave, but for me it was... Thank you. Not all heroes wear caves.

For me, it was, well, doesn't Luke Cage wear a hoodie? Well, I'm wearing either. And look at me. Because it's 93 degrees in November. So good. No, it's good that we're going to opt out of all climate change stuff. No, that's good. That's great.

I, at the beginning of the season, or near the beginning of the season, decided to not read recaps or critical responses to your show or tweets about my show. How did you do that, though? If you were engaged on Twitter, how did you... Well, one sneak through occasionally, but I had to unfollow everyone who I knew was going to, or I just muted them during those days. So that's why you haven't noticed my absence. Yeah, exactly. Or your hate of my show. This is going to be a rough interview then if you don't know what's coming.

No, I'm completely unaware. Because I realized I was giving a lot of emotional power to people who are paid to review my show or not or just Twitter in general. I had these standing searches. And I would get. Like Stephen Falk, Genius. Stephen Falk, Visionary. Although, those were there. And, and, but, but it was, it was exactly that.

What you're saying is that, you know, 399 nice tweets about an episode would be ruined by one, one bad, and, and, and, and, definitely. That is the dumbest thing on the planet. And, and, and, and, and, but it's so, like, it was a very simple solution to something that I, I'm very entrenched in because I started as a recapper. Mm-hmm. Um, I, you know, started making television on a weekly basis, um, as Twitter was rising in 2008. in 2008, I believe I started on weeds. So I haven't made an episode of television without gauging the critical response in the moment. That's an instant hit.

Yeah. And now I had to do without that. I mean, with oranges and new black, it's slightly different because it all gets dumped at the same time. So you're not sort of getting the weekly feedback, which I hate. And I think that- You hate the dumping. I do. Me too.

I came to a... Just this morning, I was realizing that my season's almost over. I'm still in post. Like, I did my final mix today, and it's going to air on Wednesday. And that'll be it. Yep. The finale, we're doing the last two episodes on Wednesday back to back. This is going to be airing Thursday, so we can talk about the finale.

People will have seen it. So the finale aired last night. Good job. And it's over. So now it's over. And three days ago, when we recorded this, I was still doing posts. So, um, oh, wait, okay, so now it's Saturday. I'm so confused.

Yeah. It's before. This is like watching Westworld. This is. Like, I've been through so many daylight savings and I still can't grow. The next morning I'm still like, like to my baby. Oh, it's only, it's 7 a.m. to her. No, it's nine.

What? Yeah. I don't get it. Let's just call it eight. That's not true. But anyway, so I was thinking about it. So it's over. And I'm like, wow.

Okay, so that was 10 and a half months of my life because I do my show very stupidly. And it's done. And that, and then I started thinking about streaming, it's all dumped out. And I was like, and the expanding. scripted universe, which is a constant thought on my brain, it is really just turning into content. It really is just pulp. It's just things that fill up a schedule. Yes.

Right? Like podcasts. I mean, Earwolf has to try to beat, what's another? Gimlet. Gimlet. Panoply? Yes. And the Ringer Podcast Network?

The Ringer Podcast Network. They have to beat them so they have to have more buzzy things. And we don't have a murder show. Where's our murder show? But it doesn't really matter. You're not focusing on that murder show. You're just focusing on having one. Yes.

And so the network can be big enough, then it can sell. To a phone company. To a phone company. To Verizon is making TV now. Yeah. We joke on our show that Waze. That Waze is making content. But that's not so far off.

No, that seems inevitable. Yeah. What you're speaking to, and I promise we're going to get to the year the worst season and the finale. I don't even have to. I've got questions. You may not know because you muted me, but I am an active fan of your show. But one of the reasons why I have not rushed back into the breach of television criticism writing it for the Internet or for map applications like ways was precisely because no matter what I wanted to do with it. And sometimes I think I hit what I wanted to do or was successful.

Many times I wasn't. But no matter what it was that I was writing, it was very hard, especially after four years, not to feel that I was just still shoveling the same Internet snow. no matter what is everyone else, no matter what. Because we all had our Orange and the New Black think pieces up the same week. We all had to have a thought to fuel think piece. And then next week you shoveling something else. And that feeling of just like they produce the content, we react to the content, and then there's the next content.

It started to feel overwhelming. Well, I guess, you know, one thing you did, and I think some people do is seek out the Deutsche Land 83s. You know, seek out the things that aren't getting the... Look to the helpers. Look to the helpers. Look to the international market helpers. A show, by the way, of which I probably would have no clue it existed. Did you watch it?

No. But I haven't watched anything. I haven't watched Orange is a New Black since I left it's employed. But that's because you drop the mic and you walk away. No, it's just because there's... There's too much TV. Also, I don't like it. It's making me not like it.

You don't like that show? No television. Oh yeah, television is the worst. Television is making me not like television. I agree with that. The sheer amount. But, you know, there's this old movie Moscow on the Hudson starring Robin Williams, RIP, where he is a recent

what do you call it, defector to the United States, and he's in a supermarket, and he's going shopping for the first time. It's a big American supermarket, and he comes from the land of waiting in line for bread and I hope the Russians love their children too, and he is trying to pick a coffee, and he's overwhelmed by all the things. I think one of the Fulgers crystals, he says, and he clutches and falls to the ground, clutches the coffee and falls to the ground. You know, the paradox of choice.

But it is to a ridiculous amount. Like I've gone through like three different intellectual sort of full circle loops on this to where I'm back at a point where I scroll through my 78% full TiVo and my Amazon, Hulu, Netflix. Who else could deliver TV to me right now at any second iTunes? And there's nothing I want to watch. That's the paralysis I find often. Or you spend 40 minutes deciding and then you're like, forget. Let's just read a magazine story.

Yeah, exactly. Like we started watching The Crown. Yeah. And I like it, but what it's also making me do is I'll sample it and then I'll be like, well, I'm done. You know, I've heard of people watching shows on double speed like they do podcasts now. And so I'm sitting in a coloring room, you know, shaving two frames. off. Yes. What does it matter then? But you tell me, so you're crafting this. You're pouring months of your life. I mean, for God say, you're a family man. There are other things you could be doing,

but you're making this show. I'm glad you are. Thank you. That's the end of the podcast. But I don't need to, like, who cares anymore? But do you feel that? Do you someone must care? Or have you muted those people? No, I care. And honestly, if I was getting no ratings, which I don't know, because I erase the ratings emails. Sorry, Barbara Crawford. Have you muted John Solberg completely, just all of the press department of FX? Yeah. Do you do know you got renewed, right?

What? Shoot. Oh my God. I just ruined your 2017. That's so cool. Yeah, no, I know that. I mean, God bless the move. But, no, sorry, if no one was watching, and I was still getting paid to do it, I would do it,

and I would craft it to that degree because that's just how mama raised me. But when you think about it too hard or you engage in television writing in sort of the intellectual world around people who think about television, if you engage in that too much as I've done since the moment I decide to write television, become a student of the industry, as my former agent said, if I still did that, I don't think I'd be able to do it to the same at the time. at the same level. Because I would be thinking about it too much. If you think you meant too much. I'd be too aware. Well, and I think I have been, you know, like, I, gosh, I remember last season in the middle, like we, you know, we had our first few episodes and people were still writing about it.

And then sort of in the middle of the, like, between the first and second act of the season, right? between like episodes five and six. I remember reading someone, I think it was Wolcott who said like, oh, no one's writing about you're the worst anymore, or something like that. And then we dropped this depression twist, which was a big thing for the show.

And then, you know, from then through the end of the season, constant think pieces, constant, whatever. Was that gratifying? Well, yeah, I kind of wanted to say in your face, Walcott. But at the same time, like, I shouldn't, read that, it shouldn't affect me. It shouldn't affect it either way. And also, like, can, like, their show, oh, God, I just thought of some show that was like a big deal. Like, oh, divorce, right? Yes. Big deal. And not that I'm, I'm tuned in anymore, but I don't think people

are writing about it. Like, it just happened, right? People were, of course, she has a good press person. It's an Insta story. Everyone's going to do their, you know, she's going to be on every podcast. She's back. Yeah. No one's talking about it. The talking about it thing is fascinating to me because obviously I talk about this stuff as part of my job. I like talking about TV. One of the reasons why we've had this quasi-golden age is because we all wanted to talk about it.

We all wanted to watch together and share and make the universe of water cooler. Look what we've done. But look what we've done. There are now too many water coolers maybe or not enough cups. But the point being, we've lost the consensus shows by having so many shows.

But the flip side of it is, and let me know if you disagree with this, But the people who are funding all this content are not funding it to fuel our conversations. They're funding it to fuel their libraries for long-term asset development. So, you know, Netflix dumps all of them in one night because they don't care if we're going to, like, all puzzle over the twists in episode seven together. They couldn't care less. So it's almost as if we still want to cover shows a certain way because this is how we enjoy doing it week to week, talking, talking, talking. But, you know, maybe to flip it, I mean, maybe.

even FX doesn't care because they know they're going to have a quality season of you're the worst in the can as part of FX now forever. I mean, I think to some extent that's true. Landgraf cares about the library and cares very much about protecting the library. That's why it's no longer on... FX Capo John Landgraf. Yeah, XXCAPO. That's why it's no longer on Netflix because Netflix was branding things,

Netflix stripping the bug in the corner, doing stuff like that shenanigan. So that's why he's selling to Hulu now. But yes, and that's why I'm more content. And I'm sure, like other people are doing, there will eventually be shows made directly for FX now. I'm sure that's coming down. Doug Benson Industries is for a good to fire that up. You know, HBO Go is doing that now.

Yeah, here they do after show sometimes. They do. I hear. You may know a little something about that. But what I will say is, FX still very much cares about critical response. And their PR team... More so than some of these other networks slash services.

Yeah, I mean, because, you know, if you were aware of, if you read any trade papers or anything, everywhere, like, right after the Emmys was, you know, next to HBO 18 wins. You know, FX cares about being the number one or two place for quality television. And number three... That's a feel about this podcast. the number one to or up to eight place for television conversation. Then, like him number nine, fuck you,

rear of your mirror time. I mean, that's how he, I think he feels like, you know, then, as long as he's beating Netflix. So I think there's something very personal for him, but I will also say that very rare, and I've only really worked in the long term for Showtime, NBC, and FX. Oh, sorry, and Netflix other than FX.

those places don't have the same top-down hands-on approach that FX does. Jean-Langraph reads all the scripts, watches all the cuts, calls me at least four or five times a season. Writes emails to critics sometimes. Rights emails to critics invites him to learn. In which he block quotes the critic's recent piece saying, comma, recently you wrote. And then just being hypothetical. And then maybe that critic has the balls under trash his next show.

Which, you know, it's all a conversation. That's what I think. It's all a conversation. It's all content or conversation. But I guess I mean it does, he does, yes. Building the library, certainly I benefit from the other part, which is establishing a brand identity and I'm FXX. But there's a third plank to that too, I think.

And I talked a little bit to Nick Rad from FX about this. He was on with me and Chris the other week. It's not just about building a library to have widgets. I mean, investing in a show like the Americans, which you know I love, has value outside of the library and outside of the critical acclaim, because you're investing in, you're putting down a marker saying, this is good, this is quality, and that could, I think, have a halo effect

because other people want to work with you, want to be in business with you. You have a good relationship with good people, and I do think that that, you know, pays things forward. So, you know, like you're the worst, as established now, like a, as you said, it's on FXX, you went from one to the other, but you're on that network now that gave you freedom to grow basically at a different pace, maybe a more natural pace, right?

But also they're in business with you full stop. You have an overall deal with them, and you can develop other projects. And it seems to be not just a, it's not just that they're involved. They seem to be thinking, they seem to be forward thinking in a way some of these other networks aren't, that this relationship isn't just about improving, you know, giving you good notes on episode eight. It's about the projects that you will bring to them and the relationship that you will forge with them in year eight of being affiliated. And I think certainly, you know, when Verizon is making television.

I'm a sprint man myself. I think that's where the real future is. You know, I think, you know, obviously then to lock down at a reasonable price, a voice that you enjoy is probably good business. Not too reasonable, I hope, for the sake of your kid. Yeah, basic cable. Sure. You know, so I, that, and they seem to be making more, you know, overall deals than at least I remember them having done in the past.

And it's important. So as anyone who's listened to this far can tell that you are, you're a broad thinker in the TV world. You are not just thinking about the color correction or whatever. You are thinking about the industry as a whole. Because you approached it for people who don't know from our last conversation on the podcast. You started on the other end. you were writing for a television without pity. It was.

O.G. Recapper. Yeah, O.G. All of that is a way to talk, to bring into these questions I had about the season and about the direction of You're the worst in general. And I wonder how much of that, how much of the brain that used to be a big fan of TV,

or at least a thinker about TV, informed it. So I think we've touched on this a little bit before. I'm going to, on a big picture it, and then we can drill down, as they say. So the thing about the first season of You're the Worst, I think it was almost perfect. I loved it, as you know. It's just absolutely incredible, enjoyable,

rich, emotional, engaging, so funny. And it was more or less like a crack mirror rom-com. You know, it was the wrong people getting together, but for pretty amazing reasons. And you told that story, you told that story. Let's put it that way. I feel like at the end of that first season,

you get a second season renewal. And, you know, there's almost like there are many smaller choices, but in many ways it's like the fork in the road. You could continue this idea of it as a rom-com and you break them up and you get them back. together and you break them up and you get them back together, or you do a riskier thing, which is you just keep, you keep going. You keep driving down that road, they're together, but now what?

And the now what in this case led to some really bold, I think, emotional storytelling choices in terms of these people's inner lives, expanding the side characters from, you know, from supporting comedic characters and too rich, fucked up, interesting people also. And I think the benefit of that is that it may be. made the show messier. It may be made the show not as Walcottie in the short term, but the rewards have been a lot more rewarding. Is that a fair assessment of how you looked at the decisions you've made since, or is that

just the sort of chin-stroking TV critic looking back with the hindsight of not having been in the rooms? I always think of, we actually did a parody of this, but Michael Silverblatt Bookworm, have you ever listened to that on NPR? No, but Silverblatt's, my mom's made. I think that's his name, Silverblatt, or I'm just being sort of picking a random Jewish name. From my family tree, so it's amazing. I do my research.

It's a little scary in Trump's America, but I appreciate it. But I listen to his show, and I'm an avid reader, and I'm, you know, I'm interested in the book world, and I try to sort of keep up with what's out there. And I have no idea what he's ever talking about. And he'll go on for like, like you just did, for a couple paragraphs. Sure. Is that a fair assessment? I did watch your eyes glaze over as you were thinking about.

You were thinking about Baron Trump's face. I was. And the person all is, you know, it's a fantastic assessment. And we'll then continue and pick up the baton. Whereas I'm going, I would actually go, Michael, I'm sorry. I have no fucking idea what you just said. What a polite way of telling you. I was no idea what I just said.

No, I absolutely do. But your chin-strucking thing came to mind. Absolutely. I think, you know, I'm thinking about the show a lot and I was very aware of we sort of did something that was that was fun and felt close ended and we had them move in together at the end of the first season. And, you know, at that point, the challenge then was the sort of hitting the sophomore slump thing right ahead of us. You know, I was very aware of that. And very, and sort of in studying, like, what a lot of shows did in terms of trying to over-cracked or trying to just tread the, like, let's just do the same season and hope no one notices and just with a slightly bigger budget or whatever.

Or, so you can either be over-reactionary to it. You can not react at all. or you can really just try to identify what's the next chapter in this book and approach it from more of a novelistic point of view. I mean, I think like... All right, David Simon. David Simon, those next words coming out of my mouth,

really... I think he really told the next chapter, but in a very like, oh, we're going to shock the audience because you're going to be in the world of stevedore suddenly and not know what the hell is going on. So we did not do that. although we did a mini version of that in episode 9 where it starts with Justin Kirk and Tara Summers

for the first five minutes we're not watching our characters at all and you know so it was yeah it was it was purposeful but it felt to me just like the next chapter in the story and start to investigate a little bit of okay now we met these people now why it was just like it was the Y season a little bit

but also I think I don't know from what I speak exactly here, but I feel like they're involved in making that decision is a, not an admission, but you have to have some comfort level with, you are not going to give people, you're not going to hit them in the same pleasure centers because the dopamine hit won't be as strong.

So there's a sense that you may be, I don't want to say disappointing people, but you're going to surprise people, you're going to set them off a little bit, and you have to be either confident enough or foolish enough or brave enough to be like, okay, we did it once and we're going to do something else now. And you're along for this journey.

Yeah, I mean, I think about when I was temping in L.A. when I first moved to L.A., and I remember sitting in the lunchroom at the Disney catalog where I worked for three long years. This is glamorous. It was great. And I had my tuna sandwich and pretzels, which is, you know, where my mom used to make me. And so I continued to make that for myself. It was very cheap, you know, $0.79 for a can of tuna.

A little mayo. You're good. You got yourself a stoop. Hollywood. Land of Dreams. I remember reading The New Yorker, and I remember, and I was reading Nick Hornby guest reviewing Kid A, Radiohead's new album. I'm so happy. This is a big one.

This is an infamous review. Infamous. Is it? I don't know. Just, for me, it was infamous. This is, as a recovering rock critic, this was like, yeah, this was a sharp-bired. To paraphrase, to paraphrase, Nick Hornby, he said, I got kids, I'm in my 30s, I ain't got time for this naval gazing

shit, bring back the guitar, bring back the okay computer awesomeness. He's like, why, he's basically like, how dare you not write the songs I like anymore? Yeah, exactly. It came from this place of deep resentment and entitlement. Well, and if you read between the lines, oh, fuck, I'm getting old. It was a cry for help. Yeah, it was a cry for help a bit. You know, arguably a better album than OK Computer, I think.

I think it's richer and more rewarding. But certainly... Especially with a little room temp tuna in your mouth. Yeah. Just if you really contextualize it to that era. Certainly take... Yeah, absolutely. And certainly takes a bit of a bit more patience, I think.

Yeah, but it's a brilliant album. Yeah, you don't open with those crunchy guitars. It opens with a shimmery synth thing, if I remember correct. Exactly. Anyway, so I remember that. And I don't think, I mean, maybe Tom York was like, after touring for three years with the Ben's and that and Pablo Honey, maybe he was just turning into a different podcast. But I can do this podcast. I am equipped to do this one. But I think there was sort of a visceral sense of let's do some, fuck, let's just let's do, let's mix it up, right? We have to be invested in what we're doing. And we're tired of that. Yeah, we're tired of it. And Johnny Greenwood's down with this, and he's liking...

Not Phil Selway. No, yeah, that's true. There he was. But no. But, you know, but digging, there was this, um, it was, there was this electronica band called like if X equals Y or something like that. There was just playing really bleepy, bloopy, bloopy. Oh, N X. Yes, I remember N equal.

Yes. They were on mute. I remember them. Yeah. Really bleepy, bloopy. I had on my first MP3 player downloaded from LimeWire. and that was his favorite band. He was clearly, clearly this wasn't just a...

An aut-techer he was super into. Yeah, clearly this wasn't just to fuck you. And in the same way, I'm a big fan of, and have been awed by since I was a child watching MASH reruns with my family, of shows that took creative risks and things that made me an eight-year-old go, what the fuck is happening?

I'm scared. Why is Hawkeye in a boat in a river of blood? Yeah. Why aren't they just making fun of Frank? Like... But also, can I ask if there's also an element of this and maybe them getting the date slightly wrong, but then as someone who was watching a lot of TV

and making jokes about it, but in a loving, I love TV kind of way, as those early recaps were, you'd seen a lot. You'd seen the tricks. You've seen the, you know, the... You'd seen the moves. And so there may have been some frustration with seeing them just done over and over again.

Yeah, I'd seen the moves, but also very specifically, I had watched a lot of British television. And I had seen... The same shows Tom York had watched, probably. Probably, yeah. And I'd seen them take risks and allow their characters to be unlikable in a way that American television... I mean, I can't tell you how many... I wish I could make a super cut of executives telling me, like... Likeability, likeability, likeability, likeability, likeability.

And universality is the sort of dark other side of that. And I actually don't only think that's sort of wrongheaded, but I think it's actually exact opposite of what you should be striving for. And seeing even shows like spaced, which don't, I'm not, I'm never, you're the worst, it's never going to be at Comic-Con. But to see shows like that take a lot of creative risks and just get to be weird. And even community, which is not, which is, again, not what my show was going to be. But in a very real way, you could get the sense that Dan Harmon had toys and he was pleasing himself.

Yes, that's very well put. I think that was true, especially in some seasons more than others. But for me, without maybe going that far as to see that happening, I wanted to stay engaged and very much Genji Kohan on weeds. We had that thing. And by the end of season four, it was like, or season three. we're fucking tired of writing about aggressive. Let's literally burn it down and have them move. And that alienated a lot of audience, absolutely.

But at the same time, I think it's what kept the show running for eight seasons. If they've stayed in aggressive, it wouldn't happen. And I think what's been really remarkable about your other worst as it's unfolded is that you are taking plenty of chances and things get very crazy and weird, both in terms of jokes or plot choices or some of the aesthetic things that you did this year that hopefully we'll have time to talk about. the long shots, the bottle episode with two supporting characters. But what comes out to me as actually the essential baseline of the show

is these really raw, uncut, universal emotions and psychological ideas. I mean, there is some stuff that I've heard from my therapist, and then I've heard from your TV show right there. And I'm very grateful for that. And I think actually a occasionally broad comedy is a very great and exciting way to Trojan horse those ideas. But, you know, I'll put it this way. This is the thing that I was really struck by in this.

So the finale you were airing two episodes back to back and the final two episodes of the season. And there are two of the strongest episodes you've done. I think that you know how we critics love to say penultimate. I think the penultimate one may be the strongest one you've done in a lot of ways. I thought it was just exceptional, the arguments that are happening all at the same time. And I was watching it, and I was thinking, like, the heart of almost all arguments on TV, comedy or drama, is one person's right, one person's wrong,

and we're getting the plot advanced or we're learning about the relationship to these characters because someone's right and someone's wrong. On your show, on good shows, there are more than what we're talking about yours. In this episode in particular, what was so great was that each character

passionately believed they were right and kind of were. That was the thing that's so messy and awesome and uncomfortable about it is that in the Dorothy Edgar fight, they're both right, and there's not a fix. And the Paul Lindsay one, though more extreme, is kind of right to.

And you were able to write to that. So that becomes the universality that everyone was dinging you for. But that's not the way that anyone at NBC probably would have expected you to get there. Well, I came on this thing, onto this thing recently after you went off the internet. It's been a rich five days. Where I was arguing with someone online. Yeah. And really, really, so it was late at night.

I had to go to bed, but someone wasn't just, you know, MAGA, drained a swamp, fuck you, you know, liberal and hung up. They were sort of, I could sense they maybe were willing to engage. So I was like, okay, well, let me, so, okay, so I think I could if I, I said to this person in a series of like eight tweets, I think I could talk about some of the reasons. I could write from the point of view of someone who voted for Trump who may, maybe would be surprising demographically or or what they're going to do their life wise but but kind of try to understand some of it i think i could i think i could do that as a writing exercise so so i'm wondering

to you anonymous anonymous egg could you could you from my point of view or someone someone on the other side right why this election outcome may be scary could you could that egg give you some humanity and empathy here yeah literally that. And they kept dodging and weaving and by the end I came to I came to believe that they just didn't compute.

They couldn't understand what I was even asking, let alone so to me then, and this is probably very simplistic, slash probably has been written about since fucking Plato and I'm just getting there. But one of the reasons I think that

I'm a pretty good writer and what goes into any good writing or acting specifically is the ability to sort of take your brain and and move it through time and space into someone else's body and right from their experience, right? Someone who you don't have the same kind of Venn diagram of experience with or point of view. And I think actors need that and that's why I think maybe why there's not a whole lot of good right-wing artists. where like every few years someone like Fox

would try to make a right wing daily show and it's not funny the inability to to empathize yeah right so to and it doesn't

and empathy in the way I'm talking about it doesn't mean to even believe that other side is right but to grant them the humanity grant them humanity exactly and and when you look at the humor because a lot of the all right movement

is really quote unquote humor based right They're these, do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, because they're not trapped in our like trigger rooms of peaties and whatever. Like they're free. L-O-L, Peppy the Frog, you know, the crying emoji. It's all cartoon. Like, finally we can be free and laugh about real things and not worry about offending people.

And none of it is actually funny. No, it's, yeah, it's, you're distressing. Even if you take a, just on a pure joke construct level, it's not fun. It just doesn't make the baseline for humor. First of all, yeah, like it's not rule of three is. for example, they ignore. Exactly. In other words, yeah, they named like, you know, eight Jews.

And then you're like, well, that's too many. Exactly. Anyway, to your point, specifically, episode 12, is three arguments all in the house, all sort of the culmination of the season with the three couples that we've established this season. And, and yeah, and the chore, and Eva Anderson, you know, wrote that one, is to really just put yourself in both sides of the argument, and argue as if you're on a debate team and it's really just,

you're just going to get an A or you're going to be graded on how good you argue that side. And that's, I think, what you have to do as a dramatist. But do you think, you know, this has been a hobby horse of mine, but I don't think I'm alone with it. I think your show is a shiny example of why the half hour in general, not calling it comedy or drama, but the half hour in general feels more elastic and exciting because you can do both. You know, you can have these long jaggs

about Jimmy's incestuous novel, which is called The Whith of a Peach, which I laugh about that often. Which we had to cut out the reason why it's called that. I'm sure. I mean, hopefully DVD. Can you share it on this podcast? Sure.

On his, I think it was on his form A, I looked it up, whatever the English people call senior year prom, it's what his dad said the ideal size of a woman's vagina is in front of his prom. date. See, we break news on this podcast. The width of a peach.

But you have all that, but then you can veer into these other things, you know, because you've established the framework that anything is possible. There's a high and there's low. There's broad and there's narrow in terms of the characters and the way they're drawn, but you can do all of it all at once. And I think that's very exciting. But, I mean, that the unspoken thing in that is who gave us permission to do that, you know? And I'm not sure I have it fully thought.

out, but I think that we've just been taken it. Yeah. Me and a lot of other creators, taking the tonal license to kind of be everywhere. Whereas I think dramas as having been held up as real television and prestige and heavy are less important to Allie McBeal it, or less sort of willing to. Because they don't get their after show if they do that. That's true, although I would love to do an Allie McBeal after show even today. Although I will argue breaking bad is funny as shit.

Me, Chris, the dancing baby. All the best dramas are funny. Like, Mad Men had seasons. Game of Thrones is hilarious. In ways. Dinklage gets some. Dinklage has bars occasionally. But I, no, I completely agree with it.

But I also think that, you know, we become preconditioned with the drama. You know, it builds to season. Someone dies in the penultimate. And then we have the montage to end the season and we do it again. Like, it's so rigid. You know, there's, and the best drama to me, regardless of what format it's in, comes from a place of messiness and lack of resolution, which sort of flies in the face of these 12-episode prestige seasons.

Right. And you've steered directly into the flaming heart of that sun, you know, particularly with this season and this finale. I mean, you've given us the cake and then choked on it, too, in this finale. I mean, you have this moment of, first of all, I mean, let's just diagram it. The way you get Gretchen and Jimmy to where they end up just before. where they end up. So the second to last beat is they've basically said,

I mean, Jimmy tries to outthink it. You know, he's like, well, don't we get, aren't we great for having tried, even though most things fail? And then he designs this amazing murder site. And he proposes, I mean, this is all wild stuff for fans of the show. And it's all working.

And then you gut punch us with the double graduate ending of the two-faced. Yeah. Well, I mean, so if you sort of just look at the, what's happened to them in the last few episodes, they got into an argument, and this is just a relationship thing that I've observed or lived through,

where you go down a road, and it's really, by the end of it, it's a box of cables in your garage. Like, you couldn't even begin to untangle it. And they get to that point, and they decide to just put the box back in the garage. Yes. To not even attempt to unravel.

But isn't it also some element of like there has to be meaning in tangling all these wires. It has to have been a success because the alternative is too. Well, that's, yeah, exactly. They take a picture of the box and go, well, look, at least we tried to put all these wires in some sort of order. So we get a medal for that. There has to be a reason. You know, and so in a way they have really put off. doing any actual work to

fix it. Now, I would argue also that maybe that's not, maybe that's a okay way to handle it, right? It certainly can sustain you for a while. And in a way that what we're talking about is all the central couples, I mean, the devastating thing that Lindsay says to Paul is you knew

I was a snake, but you create this, you know, in his case, particularly ridiculous narrative about defeating the snake or ignoring that it's a snake. And, you know, the Dorothy Edgar thing, not too dissimilar She's like, well, I have to keep going because I can't admit that all of this was for nothing, right? I mean, it's chasing bad money.

What do they say? Yeah, chasing bad money after good. Or something. A good money after bad. Well, and, you know, that's starting to get back to, well, I'll get back to Jimmy Gretchen. But with Edgar, I mean, my goal is to always make things as complicated, as messy, but as real as possible. So not messy for messy's sake, but messy because life is. and Edgar's story really for me is a redemption tale of him,

even though it ends badly. It actually ends good for him. It ends very well for him. Because he gets to a point where he can have normal human emotions and say, oh, my girlfriend not doing so well when I'm doing great was kind of bumming me out and raining on my parade. He says he's not going to get Lindsay a pizza. That's hurting me.

It is, absolutely. But to say something dickish, like, I'm glad my girlfriend broke up with me because she was kind of a downer and I'm doing real good right now. For him to get to that point when you see what he went through earlier in the season with PTSD stuff is a victory for him. But so back to Jimmy and Gretchen, so they decide to blow past it and they say in the first scene at the bar in this episode, so are we okay? say let's not, let's not. Let's not. And they say fine. And Jimmy has created this whole murder thing and led her and orchestrated this thing that is very much up her alley.

I knew he'd get her there by pretending someone was murdered. And by the way, I really sells this. I don't know if she likes murders, but she was projecting in her head. She was projecting. Well, she's just that. She's so good. God damn good at acting. No, she, well, I think she likes murders a little less.

but the two of my writers, Eva Anderson and Allison Bennett, they really love murder. Like they go on murder tours, they have like a murder group. It was great because I've never understood anything less, but I also completely believed that it was a thing. Like a thousand percent, that's real. My fiancé loves murder. I'm always saying you love murder.

I always say to my mom was like in her 80, early 80s, I'm like, you love murder. It's like, no, I love mysteries. I was like, are there any of the mysteries you read about like a robbery? Well, yeah, robbery, murder. You love murder. You're drawn to, I mean, serial. That's why serial's big.

Anyway, yeah, so I forget the question, but we get them up there, and he makes this argument that if we don't, if we're better than all those people, so why not join forces, basically? Yep. And she is touched that he made a murder and says yes. then she says what the, I mean, what the theme of the season, as you were talking earlier,

we keep it very mundane. It's a very mundane topic. The season's about family, really. It's about, and he says earlier that he's post-family earlier in the episode. He says everything. He basically says, hey, Gretchen, don't say the F word later when I ask you to marry me. And then up on that hill, she says, she's overcome with emotion.

She said, we're no longer just what we were. We're a family now. What he's been trying to get past the whole season with his dad dying. And in saying, and she, so she magically transforms three seasons of fun and sex and. And escapism. An escapism to this, now they're this unit called family. That is so, just so, so rich and tight. toxic to so many people.

It's so much baggage that he has no, he has no choice but to get in his car and drive quickly away. It's devastating. Thank God you got renewed, and I'm glad I can tell you about that. We should wrap up soon, but I do a couple other points to touch on. You mentioned the Edgar episode. The PTSD episode is an extraordinary piece of television and filmmaking. It's really impressive on every level.

The question I had about it was, is this a case? The issues of PTSD and Veterans Affairs, did you have a connection to those issues before the character? Or did you write the character, give him a backstory, and then as you sought to humanize the character and add depth to him that you wrote your way into this world? No, I mean, Edgar was a total Trojan horse in that I have been,

I have no personal relationship to Veterans Affairs unlike the mental illness stuff, but it has been something for whatever reason adopted me. at some point. And I think it was really just one day it struck me. And this is very embarrassing to admit. But I believe it goes back to I was playing paintball in the forest. All good stories start this way.

And I was, I just gotten divorced and these guys from high school were two years older than me asked me to go every summer, we go play paintball with us in the middle of California on this like in this forest. And I had always said no. this year I said yes. And I went and I was in the forest, you know, waiting for it to be killed and trying to kill people. And I was like, holy shit, I do not like this at all. Yeah.

I do not like this. And then, obviously, then I started thinking about actual war and maybe not being a well-to-do 35-year-old and actually scared 18-year-old. Yeah. And then I just couldn't shake that afterwards. So, yeah, so, you know, he has pitticity. We talk about his issues in the pilot episode. So it just, then I wanted to get it away from it in season two and let him be a human and let him find other likes and hobbies.

And then season three, I knew it had to come back in a big way. But I also think the more time I spend thinking about TV and talking to people who make TV, one of the best skills, obviously being associated with websites have been associated with sports culture metaphors are a little too simple. But I do think the best showrunners have to be like the best coaches in that you have to know who's on your team and what they're capable of and you put them in positions to succeed. And one thing that has to have been, you know, a gift is that, you know, Des is a very good actor. Yeah. He's very funny. Yeah.

But he also, you know, he does theater actor. He does a lot of other things. And so you knew, right, that you could lean on him. You knew you could do this. Yeah. I mean, I hired all five tool players. I mean, and inherently dumb comedy or using maybe. two or three. And so

for me it was just I'd be stupid to leave it on the table you know, to leave anything on the table. And that's sort of my approach to the show in general is if I'm allowed to use physical comedy, scatological comedy, music,

heavy drama, pointillism, neorealism, Why wouldn't I use all that? Like, why wouldn't I do that? If they don't say no, and it can somehow I can totally make it all hold together with spit and mirrors, why wouldn't I do that? Are you ever surprised, though, at the load-bearing ability of this vessel that you built? Because for as much, you know, experience as you had had writing for TV, creating pilots, working on other successful shows when you wrote the you're the worst pilot, there's still an element of it where you're writing in and it has to be, and it's funny.

in these number of pages, and you can't get too far ahead of yourself. And yet you did build this seafaring vessel that now could withstand a serious depression storyline, PTSD storyline. The stuff that you're talking, the stuff that you did this season with people carrying parental voices in your head, that's real. That's some deep stuff that I responded to, and your show could do that. I mean, I think the load-bearing nature you're talking about is, I mean, that's exactly what it is. like, you know, the fans of architecture aren't worried about what the contractor did.

They're not interested in how deep down the pilings went. Yes. And so I, you know, I see myself, I'm with one hand showing the fun and the sparkles, but at the other hand, I'm digging those piling. So I was very aware early on that I needed to tell the audience in a subtle way without them knowing this show could be anything, except what I would not do is quick cut to jokes. Yeah.

That's the one thing I wasn't going to do. Because you're not a fan of them, or do you feel that they're just not suitable for this particular? I just think it's easy. To me, that's just easy. Remember that? Whatever, I could, you know, whatever. It's been parodied enough.

But beyond that, we were going to do the family guy thing? Yes. You don't have to do it. I can do it. No, you can do it. You do it. Like when they would make fun of the way family guy does. Well, yeah, yeah.

But a lot of good show. Like, how am I your mother's? It was a nice show. 30 Rock. 30 Rock. Yeah. That hack. That hack,

too fay. But it has been done. And we've become accustomed to that. Yeah, and I won't do, I won't do, uh, and the other thing that that annoys me about, about television is, uh, ghost characters. Hate ghost characters. Like, who come back and talk to people? Like Dexter.

Like ghost dad. Yeah. Fucking hate it. I don't like that. I can't stand. It's so easy and cheat. But also, every TV creator, no matter what's showed, is you are setting the dial on your own reality. And once you set it, though, you have to police that or else then you sell things out.

And we talked about this when we talked after season one, that I was struck by, despite the wildness of some of the jokes and the situations, you refuse to sell out the characters. You refuse to sell out their humanity for those jokes. Right. You dealt with the hangover, too. Yeah, I mean, the one thing that, do you mean the hangover as well or hangover too? I meant another hangover, the one that's in development. Yeah, with the younger, or the prequel. The reboot.

It's at the bar mitzvah. I meant metaphorically, but in this case, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and the one, this season, I did something that I, I'm a tiny bit regretful of, although it gave me the most joy of almost anything. And that is showing Dorothy to be kind of a racist, a drunk drive. her and have her life fall apart. Yeah. For some reason, watching someone's dream crumble around them tickled me.

And maybe it's just because Colette's so great, or maybe it's just because that happens in L.A. Also, you were able to make some very knowing commentary, let's say, about the improvisational comedy world, just as you did with podcasts. I hope Adam Pally took that with a good, good. spirit. I don't really care if he did because that... He's a wonderful podcast guest, let me say. I'm sure he would have been great on Vernon down the house.

That literally, that was, someone pointed it out when I used to follow people who watched the show on Twitter. He, so we did the vulture, um, uh, vulture games in New York a few months ago. And it was a game show,

our thing, was you're the worst cast against the younger cast. Oh, yeah. Adam Pally and Casey Wilson were the host. Yeah. And she struggled valiantly against, you know, badly written jokes and not a great concept. Yeah.

And he basically just shit all over it the entire time. And his attitude was, why the fuck am I here? I'm way better than all of this. Right. And we were all very annoyed by that. I ended up embracing it and loving the chaos. Yeah. So this was our just, this is my just little.

A little nudge. A little nudge. That's what you can do and you have the TV show. You can settle some scores in really dumb ways when you have a TV show. When you're a star, they let you do it. It's no thing to. How are you? So this will end this week.

You will finally be done working on this season. Yes. But you have many projects in development. You have a child that you are rearing. You have another season. She's still in development. She's not in turnaround. She's in development.

No, she's in development. Yeah. She's picked up for season two. Paid to play. For you two. You have another season to work on. So where, where? Just give me the...

What am I doing? What are you looking at? What are you excited about? You know, I'm working on some shows with some of my writers and another with a... Because paying it forward. That's the beauty of it. Yeah. Another with a...

Well, it's really just piggybacking on them. Do you have any good ideas? I can put my name on. Like, they're younger and I have energy and ideas and you're just like the succubus on their back. Basically. No. I'm doing something with another, a comedian, a stand-up who's not... Doesn't work on my show, but I like her work a lot.

And I adapted a book to... Now I'm attached to direct it. That's exciting. Yeah. And just fulfilling my overall and doing other TV things. And trying to feel like I have a shockingly small amount of time. Because I do, I write the whole season. Then I do pre-production.

Then I do production. Then I do post. So never overlaps. Very rarely. Little of it overlaps. That sounds neat. I mean, literally. It sounds like an organized way to do.

It's a good way to do. it because for whatever reason I set this show up, I'm the only executive producer. It just all has to go, it's just my voice and blah, blah, blah. But it stretches out to being a 10-and-a-half-month

process. Right, but often those things overlap to some degree. Sometimes shows are being written while they're in production. Usually they're being written well they're pre-production. Yeah, the show I did in New York briefly, you can Google it. I had my writer's room. All-time live journal post, though.

It was pretty good. It was Tumblr, but yeah. I had my writer's room. I started dating myself there a little bit. No, you are. Yeah, it was Zenga. I had my writers room and then I would run down to set. We were literally off the set. We were three, we were on the near the rafters in this little writers room. I'd run down, watch the first couple takes, run back up to the writer's room, see what they had done in the, if anything, in the 15 minutes I was gone. Run to editing. It was all happening at the same time, and I much prefer this way. Well, I hope that at some point in the offseason, maybe you can come back on and we can talk about other TV shows. Yeah, just talk shit about TV. Because I like, you know, you have a running joke that makes fun of rectify on your show. I love it. We do. Yeah, we created a whole show. It's great. That show would be winning Peabodies. Exemplify. Well, we decided that we heard two, two. We keep a list of actors who like our show to see if maybe we can ask them to guest.

And Pan Oswald and Elizabeth Moss are the fictional stars of Exemplify. It's beautiful. Someday we want to shoot The show within a show like Twin Peaks You gotta do it We just wanted a whole episode this season That was an episode of Exemplify Which is I think it's in its fourth season

On Blue Cube streaming network And they're the stars of it So there's a lot to look forward to is what you're saying There's still more to mine here Season four, there's a few things to mine All right well I can't wait for it Stephen Fogg thanks for coming to talk to me Thanks for

Thanks for