The Watch - ‘Euphoria’ and ‘Hacks’ Say Goodbye. Plus, ‘Star City’ Takes Off.

Episode Date: June 2, 2026

(00:00) Chris and Andy talk about the ‘Euphoria’ series finale (02:22) and the choices behind Rue’s ending. Then they discuss the finale of ‘Hacks’ (49:47) and how its ending differs from Euphoria’s much darker sendoff. Later, they break down ‘Star City’ (01:02:27), the new For All Mankind spinoff, and why it’s one of the most exciting shows they’ve seen in a while. Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Stefano Sanchez Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Order and it will come. Like today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Ringer.com and joining me in the studio, guess he has to scrap that Coleman Domingo Rolling Thunder remake. It's Aida Greenwald. Absolutely the opposite.

No, it's all time. It's hot right now. It's the hottest it could possibly be. Greenwald, great to see you today on The Watch podcast. We are going to talk about the conclusion of a little TV series called Euphoria, which ended last night with an hour and 45 minute series finale, as HBO has announced that that was the end. What a three-month journey it's been for some of us.

Yeah, and so we're going to talk about Euphoria. We are also going to talk about one of my favorite new shows that I've seen in a long time, Apple TV's Star City, a spinoff of For All Mankind, but something altogether different and cool to talk about. there's a couple of other things, but I think euphoria is definitely the headline. First of all, you can hit us up The Watch at Spotify.com. Instagram is the watchpot underscore. You can watch us on YouTube at the Bringer Dash TV, along with the Prestige TV podcast who went live last night to talk about Euphoria.

I wonder if Joanna and Rob knew that that was going to be in an hour and 45 minute episode before they signed up for that, but they did a great job. And they had some really great takes on the show. Do you think the Germans have a word for that feeling you get when you turn on? an episode of television and see 1.45. How often do we see 1 colon 45? It's among the longer episodes of TV I can remember.

I have some thoughts on that, yeah. Yeah, there is, I wonder if there's a German word for that feeling that I had when we had to go live for Talk the Thrones while the Sixers were still playing the Raptors in 2008. Oh, I didn't have to do that. I did, yeah.

Wow, what was the word, do you think? Shite. that's bad man um that's bad okay and then you know we might touch on like the end of hacks and like where HBO is at right now you're taking me on a journey today i love it um how was you have anything else for your weekend anything no like we could do we can do that for watch after dark okay we want to get right into it yes uh let's talk about how we felt about this finale okay i guess i'm gonna start here because you had the more unique viewing experience these being the only uh eight episodes of euphoria that you've ever seen.

Did you leave the finale satisfied? I found this hour and 45 minutes to be a relatively perfect encapsulation of my three-month journey in that I found it by, I won't say exactly equal turns, but certainly some in each camp, I found it exhilarating, hilarious, outrageous, ridiculous, frustrating, bordering on infuriating. That was my journey this year. Before we get into the specifics of that, I think it's important, if you don't mind.

I think we could just go right at the main story here. Yeah, and for people who are just taking a little dance with us here, this is going to spoil the final episode and thus the season of UFO. And thus the series, which has now been confirmed. I thought that the almost, certainly tragic, and the almost under-souled death of Rue was artful and deeply upsetting in ways that really highlight the fact that even in my limited engagement with the show, it was very clear that the heartbeat, certainly no pun intended, of the series, is Sam Levinson's relationship to addiction and to his particular worldview on the scourge. of drug addiction in contemporary American society. Yeah.

And for it ultimately to take the form of this like beautiful, radiant, charismatic, surprising, hilarious, life-seeking protagonist for her to go out with not even like what we've come to experience in media, hopefully, although potentially in our actual lives, of Odeeing and coming back and struggling, but just the automatic existence life. switch that is fentanyl was a gut punch but I also thought that was really really I thought it was a powerful use

of his medium to communicate what this drug does you know and then it built on and by building on that it had the almost landman-esque Ali explanation of what happened and what's happening in America during what appears to be his last very much his last

his last AA meeting we can talk about that and I have a lot to say about the Coleman Domingo thing but but but but I really want to hear your thoughts on the extinguishing of a character that has meant a lot to you into the series. But I found, and we can talk about the artfulness or however you found it to be of the dual, the choose your own adventure morning that we see a fantasy morning that then spins out quite clearly into a last moment's death nightmare. But like I did find that if you just scoop that out. I found that effective, but also I found that that was a moment when as an audience member I felt very in tune with.

with what I believe the creator to be intended. Yeah, I don't think that I necessarily expected it just because it ultimately, I thought at Euphoria was rounding into being Rue's story. Yes. You know, and I guess it was. And also, this is sort of silly, but like I was watching Bill's Instagram over the weekend and his daughter Zoe had had a good point on one of his walk-in talks where she was like, well, Roo's the narrator.

So how would you break that? that sort of level of storytelling. Yeah. All this is being discussed by Rue in some sort of kind of omniscience. There is a cinematic tradition of posthumous narrators. Yes. Yeah. I mean, she doesn't quite achieve Sunset Boulevard here, but yeah, there is some of that.

I was deeply moved by it. I think that there are other shows that would have broadcast her death much more clearly in so much as there would be like. a sacrifice that she needed to make whether it was for Ali whether it was for one of her friends for jewels whether it was to do

the last good thing that she could do and in her fantasy and in her imagination I think she is doing that she's coming through for Fez who came through for her I think the fact that the actor who played Fez Angus Cloud passed away after a battle of addiction

but specifically if I'm not mistaken he would what ended his life was fentanylaced. Yeah. And Sam went on pop cast, the New York Times, pop culture music podcast with John and Joe and talked about how,

and he has spoken at length about how, like, if he were using today, the way, in whatever capacity he once did, there's, in all likelihood, he would be dead because there is this silver bullet and bullets out there that, like,

take addicts out in this kind of, vengeful almost way. I just found myself like really going along on that journey and I thought that the two best actors on the show got an incredible showcase the Rue and Ali

relationship was the most meaningful one to me probably of this series and in a lot of the ways that Rue kind of fantasizes about what she wants her last day to stand up to which is being there for Fez, reconnecting with her family, going back home.

I think that Ali's final act, which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Yeah, I'm eager to talk about it. Is in and of itself a fantasy? Yes. And I do think it, quote unquote,

happens in the world of euphoria. Yeah, yeah, but. But I think that turning into Dirty Harry, Rolling Thunder, taxi driver, and, you know, even the Rolling Thunder, which is like this very,

very well-loved B-movie from the 70 I don't know if I'm calling it a B-movie but Tommy Lee Jones and William DeVane and about a returning soldier who is you know takes vengeance on those who take advantage of his family that was a very knowing nod

Sam has when he did his Euphoria Film Festival at the American Cinemate in L.A. The one that he spoke for was Dirty Harry. So I was like oh that's why I guess. And I think that that is probably, honestly, a fantasy of the people who have lost their children, their loved ones to fentanyl, is that someone should pay for what is happening.

So I thought, I completely agree with you about that. And I think that the most sympathetic is the wrong word. But the most, maybe empathetic or the most attempting to be attuned to the journey of the show and the creative process of the show take that I can give is that this. entire thing and really made clear the season, which is the one I watch, but you can speak to whether this hangs over the entire series. But this is a project is a personal labor of love for someone who clearly throughout his life and not just because of his parentage and where he grew up, has found both escape and meaning in art, but specifically in cinema. Who among us?

And truly, look what we do for a living. And so we did note throughout this season, particularly, that everything, felt a little bit like kids playing dress-up. I mean, these are 23-year-old supposedly set loose in this, you know, sinful hellscape of modern Los Angeles. And sometimes it struck me as very discordant and like the other day, and I called it like, you know,

Bugsie Malone in stilettos. And other times you could sort of understand what the fantasy was doing for these characters. So my most generous interpretation of the end without getting into dismissing it as just like sub-Tarantino, almost pastiche schlock. The Alamo stuff. Yeah. Which always it kind of was, is that the entire season is a referendum on the fact that in

2026 or whenever the show is set, most addicts do not get second chances. And so Ruse embrace of religion, Ruse embrace of a new life, Rue's constant just being missed by shotgun shells like her constant near misses are not actually a hero story. These are just the last moments of thrashing in the net that's already caught you. And that if you look at where she was,

she hadn't made it very far at all. I mean, she was sort of toggling between these two almost obscenely cartoonish extremes of violence, Nazis, and then the cowboy gangsters at the strip club. And all of that being said, what happens in the last 30 minutes or 40, minutes of the show is a character who on Thursday I was saying I wish there was a

spinoff that was just Ali doing his work that this character slow show well depends what's the thing his previous one that his saying that Rue being the the last straw for him and him immediately then taking up a drink quitting meetings sawing off a shotgun and doing what he does that it was in some ways like giving this character who has has lost so much and has been burdened by so much, the grace to also lose himself in cinema, where he becomes dirty hairy and he can do something on screen that no one in the messy, complicated real world can do, which is shoot addiction in the head until it explodes like a B character on the boys. That, I think, as I'm pitching you on that, sharks, like, do you

buy that emotionally? Does that make sense to you? I'm not saying that it worked for me, but I found that, I find that argument that has come into my head more compelling. Yeah. You know, what's funny is that I think that you, when we intellectually, like, get into, like, the project here and what this, so your description of that second half of the episode, and I'm, let's put aside the searcher's prayer coda. I, let's bring it back. I do want to talk about that.

I found that incredibly moving. Yeah. The silver slipper sequence with Ali and Alamo, I think is like, it's one thing in, when you describe it or when you talk about like this is the best possible version of it. And I think one of the things that it was difficult about this entire season is that I can tell you that. But it's also got like eight Brazilian buttlift jokes. and a runner with a white dog and, you know, kind of hat on a hat with Maddie being there as well. And Super Bowl MVP, Marshaun Lynch getting his dick shot off. Yes, which he was very disappointed not to actually do that stunt as I learned from the after show.

Did you stick around for that? I did, yes. You do the work. Well, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting, what was the one that we just, like, I missed the credit sequence of? Oh, yeah, and you hadn't even seen it. It was the pit. The pit. It's one thing to describe it and then it's another thing to experience it.

And I think that during that, it is set in the strip club and I get it. But like there are elements of it that I think are distracting it from its pure power. You know, and that it kind of diminished the impact that I think it could have had. There's also just like storytelling stuff that I don't think he took care of. I don't think he properly set up Bishop turning on Allen. That was not set up. I don't think that it's clear what Rue's friends know about Rue's death

or what it means to them. And whether like Maddie ever puts together that it was her. I told Alamo that Rue was a D.A. informant and then days later she's dead. I will jump on one thing with that. And I don't know why I guess everybody is just assuming that Rue overdosed.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to carry too much water for this because I think that ultimately for me as a storytelling mechanism in an episode of television, it failed. Okay. I was, but as we've agreed, like, we were moved by, and I think I deeply respect the decision

to handle the end of the main character the way he handled it. And I think that there's an interesting conversation to be had, and we'll continue to have it about whether it is illuminating or ultimately kind of simplistic to have both a director, a creator, and characters lose themselves

in the extremity and artifice of cinema, as opposed to actually, staying in the uncomfortable place that the show flirted with. But I will say that I, the way that, so like the entire way the season came together again, we're going to choose to use the high-minded version of it, which was this was all a vision as opposed to, man, this was what he could string together considering the cast availability for all the budgetary stuff. Not budgetary stuff, meaning like he didn't have enough money, but like what it would cost

to mount X, Y, or Z thing. Well, I just, I just don't know whether Hunter Schaefer was available. You know what I mean? So it doesn't seem like it. What I mean is, if you look at it that way, you can, there's a positive spin and there's a negative spin. And when you, of course, listen to Sam Levinson talk, it all seems like the vision came together. I find that hard to believe because Rue is the main character of the show and yet kind of haunted the show in a weird way in the margins existed in a different show and never really crossed paths with anyone else to leave a meaningful mark emotionally that landed on other characters, which is a hallmark of serialized television. That said, you could say, and maybe he said in interviews that I haven't seen yet, that was all.

always the point because Rue is the main character when she shows up to Maudapita, what's her name, Lexi's house, you know, and is sort of going on and on about the DEA, from Lexi's perspective, this is someone she knew four or five years ago who she opens the door to but then doesn't think about in the intervening weeks and months. Yeah. So when you hear about it, it is, like you said, it's like a, that's a bummer, but in a way I've mourned her already. Yes. And I think that when Lexi and Maddie are talking about Rue or when I can't remember if it's Lexi or Cassie talking about Rue.

And Maddie not cruelly says she was a drug addict. You know, I think perhaps her friend friend group at that moment is like, ah, the phone call we were always expecting finally came. Yeah. And what a tragedy. And don't put together that, in fact, she probably took like one or two percassettes for the pain of her hand. I think likely one.

One. And that was. Because he made a show of taking, from a different patch of taking one and giving her one. Yes. Yeah, because he took the one, which was, you know, that was probably actually, like, when you look back on that episode, I guess it's been, it was kind of broadcast that that's what was going to happen

in a row. Well, also his joy of her being employee of the month and doing a great job. Yes. In the first conversation they had some cheap. Yeah. Where to go from here? I mean, I guess. Well, do you want to talk?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on both the violence, you know, just in terms of that turn for the character of Ali, but then also the turn back. in a way of going to the homesteader stuff. And I really want to, I'm really curious your take on the show's almost Old Testament interest in the Old Testament in the sense that it, I cannot tell if it is skeptical, credulous, mocking, true believer, or if it is just what it seems to be, which is a creator or either for his own life or thinking of his characters, grasping on to something like you would,

a life preserver in the middle of the ocean, in that it's like you'd never thought about a life preserver before until he were drowning. Because the way, like, I thought the weakest scene by far in the episode is Lexi talking. Lexi and Cassie. I mean, the other thing is,

I don't want to be unkind, but like Zendaya and Coleman Domingo and my guy, Adwali Akinaj, Bajé, who plays Alamo, are exceptional actors doing exceptional work on the show, even when I don't love the material. Some of the other cast members, particularly the ones we're talking about in the scene,

are quite weak, in my opinion. I just don't know that they had a ton to do. Or they don't know what to make of it. Maybe they weren't given sides. They didn't know where they were in a story. But that scene where she's like, you ever read the Bible was tough sledding for me. But I'm wondering how you felt about all of that.

So I'm going to make the case for it that the show's interest in and the character's emerging interest in the Bible is in and of itself not all together different than Sam Levinson using these sort of pre-established much beloved cinematic tropes and forms, spaghetti westerns, B-movie vengeance thrillers, Douglas Cirque melodramas.

Hollywood pictures about Hollywood, Sunset Boulevard, you know, Antonioni, like, close-ups of people's crying faces, you know, like these kinds of things that I think as a kid who is largely raised by screens, like I identify with the need to like look

at real life and think about what movies I've seen that can explain it. Yeah, and to mitigate your own emotional. And it's like a disassociative kind of thing, which frankly is also what drugs are about. Like drugs are a way of pulling down the shade and existing in a completely different

world for a while where your brain is moving fast or slow or is feeling no pain or whatever it is. So I get it. Your mileage may vary on how you feel about Maude Apatow as a performer. I think her reading of it as I hate to use the Didian, we tell ourselves stories in order to live stuff, but that the Old Testament is no different than Dirty Harry. All Spotify podcasts are using the Didion reference way too much. That the Old Testament is no different than dirty Harry. It's a story you tell yourself to like understand why bad things happen to people you love. Yes. And that yeah, that that sex betrayal and violence goes all the way back. All the way back. Yeah. When they be begatting people left and right back then.

Begats? Bring your begets to the yeah. I, you have like Lexi just being like, man, these guys are just begatting left and right. This is great. Yeah. Yes. I. I, This is why I think I have more tenderness towards this, like, completely unwieldy, impossible finale than that I expected or maybe anyone listening expected is because I don't know. I felt all any of us are doing is trying to tell ourselves a story to keep the scaries away, to get to get rid of the anxiety or to mitigate the anxiety or delay the anxiety. and he is reaching for primal stuff, the most primal human stuff when he brings the Bible into it. There was a feeling of just like the Texas family

as the, wait, this is really what Rue wants, this isn't a bit, and then, no, these people are her heaven in a way, was confounding. Because it was a level of sincerity that in my limited engagement with this show felt quite surprising and untrustworthy. It was revealed to be quite trustworthy at the end. And interestingly, where Ali is, at this point, he's Martin again.

And as he said earlier in the episode, he's been a Christian, he's been a Muslim, he's been a drinker, he's been almost everything. And it's almost as if the horror of everything that he's seen and done has scoured him clean. and he arrives, you know, like a pilgrim, basically, to this nothing desert place. And he is not ostensibly religious. But then when he says grace and he's with this family and they're holding hands and he sees Rue, he's a believer again in something.

Yes. I thought that that was the most effective use of a cinematic reference point that this episode had for me, which was framing Ali as Ethan from the story. searchers multiple times as the outsider who can't come in to this domesticated peace palace essentially you know and and and I thought he very knowingly was doing that framing and then to have you've got the the last image of him outside of the barn and the little girl comes up to him and is like that's actually essentially Ruse Spirit reborn three months ago and it's a miracle that this cow had a

baby, but here it is. Yeah. Bringing him in. And then, you know, this shows relationship to religion and what religion can and does mean to people. I think sometimes is fast and loose. I also am not a religious person. So it's not really like my place to speak on what it means to the characters when I don't

really have a spiritual life, so to speak. But there is something very, if you listen to the words and if they, the moment is right, there is something very calming and peaceful about prayer, you know, and especially that the grace that they say at that table. And like, that to me was like, this is the baseline. This is what all humans should hope to strive to achieve. And even though those, I believe, if I remember correctly, like those people had some pretty, some political opinions maybe that I don't agree with, you know, earlier in the season. But the idea that it's like, you know, we basically remember the dead.

May their memory be a blessing. That specifically made me sit up a little bit because that is traditionally, that's a Jewish saying when people pass away. And I appreciate it in that moment that if we were talking about... Got them. Finally some representation in Hollywood. Yes. No, but that like Martin at this point is a pilgrim who is moved through everything.

Yeah. And when he's praying at that moment, I took that to mean he is now forming a collection of things that are meaningful to him. I also can't help but, you know, think that Sam Levinson put that in because the Levinson family probably has said that when they have lost people in their lives. And I found that moving. I found that like interesting and expansive in its engagement with religion. And, you know, I think there's a secondary step here that that maybe the story of euphoria is that Rue wasn't able to because of her addiction because of her illness. was not able to achieve. But like prayer and religion, this is maybe just getting older,

I think it has become more interesting to me too, both because of the ability to like connect to anything bigger than yourself and get out of your own head, but also that like so much of what we talk about, and not just us in Los Angeles, but I think there's like a secular religion that is getting better about telling people to practice gratitude, you know,

which is essentially saying a prayer, it's just maybe not to anybody. And that there is, is a certain, and actually certainly in Los Angeles, there is a very strong spine of that type of belief out there. And the fact that the show up until the very end maybe existed in a much more Old Testament binary heaven and hell, but you're never going to see heaven, was holding it back in a way. Like I don't know.

I think that I'm engaged with this finale. There's plenty that I didn't like. And if we could get into it if we wanted to. But I'm much more engaged with it. And this is a me thing, not a euphersonal. thing. But there were aspects of this season that really rubbed me the wrong way and activated me in a way that only things that I find to be spectacle-driven or cynical do. And there was a sincerity to the main thrust of this episode and to the grace that was handled despite this

silver slipper thing that makes me feel, look, whatever you say about this show and about this guy and whatever he does next, and whether you make me watch it on the podcast or not, he believes it. You know what I mean? Like there is no lack of courage of convictions here. So I want to be, that's another reason why I don't,

I'm trying not to be as reactive as I normally might be to things that drive me insane. Yeah, and I also, I think I have gone back and forth where I was like, you know, in the beginning of the season, I was like, my selling point on euphoria is it's never boring. Yeah, and the first episode got me because it was like the shot of her teetering on the wall. like that was cinema.

Yeah. That was awesome. And that can be damning praise because that can't be the only thing that art does is stimulate some, you know, some frontal lobe stuff for you. The way drugs do? Yeah. Yes. But I didn't think that this episode was boring.

I thought it would be, it was able to do things where you were like, oh, of course, of course this is what had to happen. But also be like, I had no idea that this was. going to happen. In the back of my mind, I was like, Ali's going to try and save her in a shootout of some kind. And his sacrifice is what finally sends her down the right path or something like that. And I should have thought more about the fact that they had kept the Fesco character canonically alive on the show. I should have thought about the sort of plot that they had kept going with him about escaping and that this, that moment when she's woken up. And he doesn't,

doesn't see the pill bottle that is right in front of her and they're talking about this escape and she goes running out the door that that that wasn't real and that when she starts seeing images from her own childhood that that was obviously the last moments of her life the inclusion we sort of glided past it but the inclusion of as a character i've never seen yeah was i thought that was really remarkably done and um and again a sign of my complicated relationship to the show where when it says like escaped, inmate escapes via parkour and I was like, this show will do anything to perpetuate itself. Yes. When in fact, what it will do, and again in that moment, like, there have been, there have been, in the history

of television, there have been, sadly, multiple tragedies where cast members have passed away or have, for whatever reason, been unable to continue on with a show or the show is continued on without them. And the show tries to build that into the show world with very mixed results. And I thought this was one of the most

touching and human ways that I've ever seen it done. You could see it was like a very personal story to him. It made the show that was that was canonical I guess is what I mean to say what happened to Angus McLeod is the story of the show and I you know Sam Levinson has said in interviews that like it changed his idea of what the ending was going to be so I thought that that was a pretty powerful tribute. Yeah and then I mean just to put a bow on the ending I thought you know in in the searchers the john wayne character cannot come back inside after what he's done like he is um kept outdoors and in the wild as america starts to build um like it's community and its towns and its sense of like society like guys like that get left behind so to have

this end with ali being brought in side to the dinner table, I thought was a striking difference in, it's an inversion of what, like, the imagery suggested initially. And, and it takes a, it takes a reference point and says, like, my thing is, is like this. I, I loved that. I, the season ended. Um, I, I think, I, I have seen some, some discourse about the, the last shot of the American flag billowing and being like, that this was somehow like, maga coded or that, I, I think, I have seen some, some discourse about the, the last shot of the American flag, like the end of the episode was like overly conservative. It's not what I got from it.

You know, I did not that, you know. Yeah, to me, the flag is commenting on the transformation. There is a, if there is any optimism, and it's certainly streaked with grime, but if there's any optimism in the worldview of the show, it is that transformation is perpetually possible. In both directions. Yes, I'm interested in his sense of like, can people change because the Nate storyline, again, if we're going to consider this to be a season of television, we need to bring in everything. Yeah, we need to talk about all of this stuff. And so if you consider that storyline, I think that the message was no, like people's demons, if they are evil in the sense, again, in the binary sense that Ali says in this episode, they're either helping the world or hurting it, then you cannot change, no matter how much you dress up or matter how much good you intend to do with your senior center or whatever. But. You know, whether you are an addict like Ali or you are a, you know, an only fan's model, you can change your presentation. You can transform quite easily and not just be accepted, but in the most American form of reward, you can get paid for it. Yeah. And I also think the dark side of that is that when you're a kid, the world feels more like even if you're, no matter what I think economic strategy come from, the world feels like.

a playground to some extent. Like, you don't make a distinction between work and play. Like, it's just existence, you know, until... Everything is the hustle. Yeah, until homework starts getting due. And then some of us rise to the occasion and some of us don't. At this table. But as you get older, I think you still use the tools of your childhood to give your life shape

and to give your life meaning. and another charitable way I could sort of understand Cassie, Lexi, Maddie is, you know, you talked about them playing dress up, you talked about it being like Bugsy Malone. I think that you could make the argument that that's what life is. Sure. Fake it till you make it. You basically are doing like this mimicry. You are doing like, I guess what I have to do is take the things that come naturally to me

and see if I can make any money off of them. And for Lexi, it's telling stories and for Cassie it's taking pictures. and for Maddie, it's shaping those pictures and shaping, like, the way people perceive women. And for Nate, it was real estate, you know? It sure was. If only for those zoning boards. And the zoning boards killed him in the end.

Who do you think he's voting for in the mayoral election? I don't, I mean, if he votes, we're going to have some controversies. Great point. Great point. We could talk a little bit about some of the other plot lines. I think it's really worth noting that Hunter Schaefer does not speak in this episode. I think you could look at that and be like,

it is a beautiful final moment of wordless communion between two characters who loved one another very deeply in Jules and Rue. You could also say Jules' last words to Rue were kind of like, this isn't going to happen. So knock this fantasy shit off. Like, I'm here. This really works for me.

I'm happy, quote unquote. what did you think of her Medusa painting? I am not really, I don't feel qualified to comment on the character of the storyline because the character didn't really exist this season and didn't really have a storyline. Yeah. So my response to it... I believe one scene with any other characters besides Ellis, the plastic surgeon and Rue. Well, there was the wedding.

That's what I mean. Yeah, exactly. And it was my favorite scene between any non-Zendaya characters was the Nate and Jules. Oh, yeah. Which, again, I think was in many ways one of the most TV scenes in that it paid off something that had occurred over multiple seasons. So I don't feel qualified to comment on the performer, the performance character, really, other than to say, I am not a fan of fictional painters expressing their emotion through paintings because inevitably they're not going to, I don't think you're, I don't know if they're going to get the effect that you wish. you could get from them. They probably should not have shown the painting.

Sure. The painting seemed sort of silly to me, as did the sort of, like, this is, the sort of self. You imagine of Ellis was like, what the fuck is that? What are you doing? But sort of like the, the chote, like, there's more power in the silence

and the expression of art, and the painting was like, you were serious about that? Like, I didn't get that. And it felt, I mean, this is the thing that I think is ultimately, certainly a challenge for me.

And I would imagine whether it's, you know, on your dial it's more or less or maybe it's not articulated. But like I think one of the real challenges of the season, and I guess it was an unavoidable one, is that it is ultimately a tweener. It was neither here nor there. It was neither committed to being a full-throated continuation of a serialized television show that had a lot of character and emotion equity built into it, nor was it able to fully commit to being a what I, you know, responded to in the trailer, which is a fuck you guys, this show is something different. for it now. I mean, I think it definitely committed to the latter. It committed to the latter in terms of in terms of its service to the audience, but the fact that some of these character strands were continually attended to even limited, like my sentence, what I'm trying to say is either do it or don't. No, I completely agree with you. Like, I understand that Jules is part of euphoria and Hunter Schaefer

is part of euphoria, but there was no room for that character this season, frankly, regardless of scheduling. You know what? I was kind of, I was watching it and, you know, there were been shows that I think we either have a sense of how they were made or what sort of challenges went into making them or, you know, we are aware of like scheduling mishaps or, or issues

that plagued the show. I think the best possible version is when it comes out and it's like exile on Main Street and it sounds like everybody's in the room. Stop asking the questions. You know what I mean? It sounds like everyone's playing in a room, but in fact it's like one guy's in France recording on an answering machine and... But the art speaks

But the art speaks for itself. And I don't know that all the time, Euphoria was not exile on Main Street. I think that the Jewel's innate plotline specifically felt like they took place in a different working environment than the rest of the show this season. And I think it was to its detriment.

I want to talk to you a little bit about the fact that the show makes the choice not to do a bad news relay about Rue. and not to do, which is a term we sometimes throw around in the show about. It's the Broad Church. It came from Broad Church, but it's basically each character

finding out the same terrible news and having an Emmy reel. An Emmy reel for it. I thought that was cool. I think you, like we talked about it, like you could make the argument that to Maddie and Lexi

ruse sort of a crazy character from their past that is every once in a while will pop up on somebody's couch, but that this wasn't a big shock. But Levinson kind of went through a lot of plot bullshit to get Lexi to tell Maddie that Rue is working for the DA.

And then Maddie told Alamo. And the only real acknowledgement of that seems to be when Ali says I'm here for Rue or Rue Bennett sent me, like they get a reaction shot from Maddie, but it's not like a do you realize what happened here. Yeah, no, it doesn't land. I mean, I think this is, I think you're articulating an example of what I was trying to say bother me.

Like, it's a tweener. It's like you're servicing. Certain TV things. Certain TV things. But then ultimately, you kind of don't care about them. And it makes sense to me. And this, I mean, is a truly, I mean, this is a compliment. Why, when Sam Esmail used to come on the show and he was praising Euphoria for its directorial vision and its aesthetic consistency, because it's like Sam, both Sam's right and direct everything.

you see things on this show like you did with Mr. Robot or Sam S. Males, other things, that are contemptuous of some TV tropes. And it allows you to separate and engage with the material and make observations like we're making about like, well, it may have felt sudden or brutal or cruel to dispatch rue the way that the show did. But the show is actually telling you something about our engagement with protagonist. and how we imbue hope into them when everything about their circumstance is telling you it's hopeless.

You know, that's not traditional TV. Traditional TV would walk up to that edge and then maybe like the hacks finale still give you all of the gushing emotion that is kind of your reward for watching the show. Euphoria didn't do that. And it leaves us making references to the searchers and to Jewish prayers, you know,

which is cool. We don't usually do that. But I think that the fact that it maybe was an ill-fitting, ill-fitting clothing this season, that it was still in the skin of a serialized television show. And most people engage with it that way. And I think they were, my sense is that people were either quite confused or quite pissed off by some of the storytelling choices. Yeah, I mean, the choice not to show Rue's mother receiving the news, the choice to not have anybody else finding out about this to see.

see Storm reads characters of her sister finding out about this to I mean I think the thing I think that that feels like more like that feels like more like something went wrong rather than a choice that was made yes that said Sam can go on a podcast

and say you're misreading the show it is ultimately about the ways in which addicts in our lives are dead before the coroner comes you can say that and I I've been carrying water for those arguments in this podcast, but you can't say that as a coming

over the top argument ender to people who have engaged with a serialized television show with a certain set of expectations. They're not wrong. Just because you can intellectually articulate why you did something does not invalidate the emotional reaction. Well, this is what I'm kind of trying to work through in this conversation is like, how can I watch something that fundamentally doesn't work on so many levels that I still feel like it worked for me emotionally and intellectually in some ways.

You know, like, I guess it just made me think about things that I usually don't think about when I'm watching television. Including what the fuck are they doing? Yeah, but like, but it made me think about addiction in a lot of different ways. And it made me think about the American West in ways that I hadn't really thought about in a while. And it made me think about, um, forgiveness and why we go to the movies and all these things. And I was like, this is good, man.

Like, this is bigger than I thought it was going to be. It meant more to me than I thought it was going to be. I also felt continually, and I'm not saying this as a negative, but like a writer-director in a movie can have his or her one to two dozen hinge points, exclamation points to express like scenes, moments, vibes that are crucial to understanding what that vision is. and the connective tissue in 90 minutes or two hours isn't really as important as we often think it is unless it's, you know, why did Palpatine suddenly return? Like if it's a personal story, you don't, you don't, you shouldn't ever watch them as a redditor. You watch them being carried along by someone trying to tell you something. Yeah. And I think where the limitations of the Autour model are evident in a show like Euphoria are you can absolutely,

hang a constellation of these really bright, powerful shining star moments that moved him and that tell the story that I think he clearly wanted to tell. The connective tissue between them was often either convoluted, ignored, underbaked. Yeah, straight up. Yeah. Like the previous episode, you finish a point. I'm sorry. And just to say, that's why people have writers rooms. I am not saying Euphoria would be better with a writer's room. It's just irrelevant to make that point. I'm saying, and sometimes the conversation creep of a writer's room, can overthink everything until it's just mid, you know. But like there's a moment in this episode that surprised me in ways that I was really excited by. Like I still don't understand, and I never asked you why Lori is the way she is

and hangs out only with Nazis on a farm. I don't understand that. Her season two kind of, like, she emerges in season two as like, I believe like a local drug dealer that Fez is working with. I haven't rewatched season two, so some of this is just patching together memories.

But her, character is more like the layer of drug culture that you experience when like you are getting serious, you know? Yeah, all of a sudden this is the person behind the person. Yeah, and like, it's not just dime bags and eight balls. It's like there's somebody who is like, I'll give you this if you give me that. And like, she, her and Alamo emerging as these two basically satanic figures in the desert, I think it's almost disconnected from who

or he was in the second season. All that to say that like the moment when the guy who rodeo ropes Rue early in the episode, when the scene is built because we've seen all the same movie Sam Levinson is seen that we understand he's going to reach for his gun and go out in a blaze of glory

and everything's going to pop off, when he doesn't. Worked. That was a moment of that I took notice. Apparently this show is also about the healing power of dogs. Of animals. Yeah, exactly. The dog told him not to do it.

But I just was like, okay. But like, we are also at the point with the show where it was just like, that is a decision and a statement that clearly has some significance to the creator and to the larger project. And then it goes off the rails. You know, she has this dramatic hanging off. Like, there's, then it goes crazy to get to the next one of those little pegboard points. Yeah. like it's so funny because we're having this kind of like

clear eye full hearts conversation about this episode and it like I said plastic surgery Brazilian butt lift Lori blows her pants out when she hangs herself colostomy bags plastic surgery in Mexico fentanyl with scorpions printed on it and Marshawn Lynch getting into a threesome before he gets his dick blown off I mean it is so like clip that cowher

exploit it is exploitation core you know and so it's funny to also be like god damn like this brought me to tears it is funny it's it's just like i guess that's the high and low that he's working with yeah and it really really really pissed people off in some ways but i even though you're the newcomer to this yeah i just i wasn't mad that lexie or nate or cassie didn't have like three more story beats at at the expense of all the Wayne, Faye and Lori stuff. I mean, like, I don't know why he did it necessarily, or I think it could have been a little bit more evenly distributed, but...

Yeah, I mean, I didn't understand what... But I also, because I didn't know, I couldn't, I didn't feel... I didn't want to spend time with really any of these other stories, but I also... That's not for me to say I'm coming in late, and maybe that some of those scenes or some of the continuation of their stories was important for the viewers.

But I also think like the, I keep looking because I never want to get his name wrong, but Adawala, Akonoy Akbajay, if he wasn't on this show in that role, it would have been a catastrophe of historic proportions. Because the character is preposterous, somewhat intentionally preposterous. But to go from Rue's death to have him giving a disquisition on the power of female anatomy and the role it's played in his life was borderline insulting, honestly, to what the show was. And a ridiculous digression or maybe not digression for what that character has been. And, you know, he came on the show like a cartoon and he went out like a cartoon. But there was an actor playing him

who brought real gravitas and swagger and dark charisma and humanity to it, which is maybe the best we can hope for. I think that, you know, like, I know this sounds crazy, but I feel like, I feel like the show got away with even more this season. Yeah. By casting and Daryl Brick Gibson, too.

And part of Bishop, who he brought some gravity and soul to a character that was mostly reaction shots and then suddenly had exposition in the last 15 minutes. You know, it got away with a lot. Did you understand why he turned on Alamo? I think because of Maddie. But did he seem particularly enamored with Maddie before this? Before she liked his dog? Yeah. Not that I could tell.

I mean, he was watching everything. Yeah, but I thought he was mostly focused on ruin was the one who's like, my spidey senses are tingling. Yes, not. But there's something up with this person who's now just all of a sudden. Empathy for this person. Now, that's the other thing. I think ultimately the reaction is one of frustration because maybe Daryl Brick Gibson will do an interview where he's like, oh, we shot all these scenes where, you know, Bishop's sister died of a drug overdose and it triggered him or whatever. And she's the one whose dog it was.

And that's what I was playing. but we didn't show it. Or, you know, you get away with it because he's a cool looking actor who did the fucking thing, scene to scene. And then you get by on again with the sort of surface artifice that the show can also skate by on. Either way, we'll never know the full answer, and we have what we have. And maybe the best way to put a bow on it is we're never getting anything like this again. Like, we're never getting anything like this again. So that's actually a pretty good segue here.

I mean, I hope people enjoyed our rather unique perspective on this series this season. And, you know, it was a fun experiment. It was a fun experiment at the beginning and end. I'll also just mention that not unlike when Succession and Barry ended on the same night, I believe. Wasn't that the same night? I think that's right. I mean, you were a kick and run Europe at the time. I was.

Hacks also ended this weekend. I'm going to just say one quick thing. I know you didn't get a chance to see this yet, but I know you've also read about it, so I'm not spoiling anything for you. But this will be spoilers for hacks, which we have not discussed. It was really interesting watching this

with an avowed fan of the show, my wife, who I think was quite moved by the ending, and was like, that was very satisfying. And I kind of have come in and out. As hacks has gone on, I have like kind of, I'll watch an episode, maybe miss two or three watch an episode and feel like I'm on top of what's happening.

And in its own way, Hax is not unlike what happened with Euphoria, where it brings in a relatively unexpected, though, somewhat broadcast plot turn where Deborah gets, has cancer, that her amass has returned. And she's decided that it's going to be, she's going to choose,

have assisted suicide in Switzerland rather than go through treatment. So her and Ava go on this sort of last lost weekend in Paris. It's actually quite beautiful. Like, you know, obviously Paris is just incredibly cinematic and filmable. And just ran into Amanda Dobbins. She said the same thing. I bet. And then, you know, they're going back and forth making jokes about dying.

And Deborah has the revelation that she, in fact, has more jokes to tell, more work to do. And that that is a substitute. that is essentially like standing in for she also loves the people around her and has learned to be a part of a community and is going to go and and try you know clinical trials of new drugs for cancer and you know as I was watching it I was feeling like I was getting a little Chewbacca'd like for what was that is still important to us that was no that was the truly odious rise of Skywalker yeah and Rise of Skywalker there's like you basically spend five minutes thinking to

Chewbacca has been blown up and... But somehow Chewbacca has returned and I got really mad on a podcast where I was like, you can't manipulate people like this. Like you prepare them for the possibility that characters, people die. You take them through that experience and then you tell them, actually, psych. And you get everything. You hoard, you're like Colin Robinson on what we do in the shadows.

You're an emotion vampire. You have stolen people's feelings. and then said, JK. Yeah. So, it's interesting to look at the two in comparison. In some ways,

Hax was a much more complete, satisfying, and watertight finale. But it does, Euphoria does what Hacks didn't do, which is say, well, what if,

what if what we are actually telling you is going to happen, happened? You know, with a main character and how would people feel about that? I think Hax killing DeBro would be, like,

quite controversial, so I understand why they didn't do that. But it was interesting to see them play with stakes that were so severe and then decide to back off in the last minute. I cannot criticize Hacks for that decision from the perspective of someone who has just been advocating for the unspoken covenant between television creators and their audience. I think that there is, and this can be, this can hamstring creators creatively over the long term, but I do think shows, you know I've said this before, teach you about themselves and tell you what they are, even before they've reached the precipice of choosing an ending. And the worst endings tend to be the ones that betray that core belief at the last moment

in search of something extra or something else or in this case of some creators wanting to play a higher note they've been allowed to play on the keyboard of their show for this many seasons. Hacks, the reason I didn't stay with Hax is nothing to do with what I believe to be even from a distance the consistency of hacks. People like Phoebe and the millions of other people and Emmy voters who love it are like, one of the reasons this show continues is because year in and year out,

Deborah and Eva are delivering. And the tone of the show is delivering and the stakes of the show are consistent. That's really, really hard to do. What I tapped out when I realized that the show's most provocative ideas about Debra being a monster, about show business being a gaping maw of whatever,

was always going to be fixed with hugs and understanding before we run it back again. Sure. The constant breaking up and bringing you back together, well done artfully, was too much of a yo-yo for me and reminded me of, I mean, Mike Scher is an executive producer of Hax,

but it's not his show. Paul Downs and Lucian Yellow and Jen Statsky did the damn thing and ran the shit out of an enormously successful beloved show. But Mike Schur is an executive producer of it, and there's a tendency that it reminded me of ultimately that, and he's made some of my favorite shows of all time. Parks and Rec and the Good Place, particularly unimpeachable, except for the one little thing, which is what I'm trying to articulate, which is every so often the softness and the gentleness and the smaltziness and the optimism start to, like,

overwhelm. The TVness, too. Yeah, and that's not a sin. The shows are good because there is a Leslie Knope and there's a Ron Swanson. And when they start hugging, that's a, That's when it starts to get a little... Anyway, so that was my interaction. That was my reaction with the thing. But like, the reason why I walked away, but when you're describing that finale to me, I think I think I would have been incredibly frustrated by it, but frustrated for the same reasons I'd been frustrated for three seasons.

And ultimately, that was the show. Sure. It's also, you know, it's hard to watch when you're just like, the bear is just clearly much funnier. Exactly. Exactly. Where are the laughs in comparison? I was just going to go through HBO's like current slate right really quickly

so you've got I would say these are the sort of ones that are like kind of not propping up but like are the flagship sort of titles for HBO right now which is White Lotus returning currently shooting in the South of France task we know is coming back Night of the Seven Kingdoms critically

I believe commercially very successful new iteration of Game of Thrones I actually was going to reference it when we talk about Star City. Good. Gilded Age, The Pit, Rooster. These are not all shows that we have love or talk about necessarily, but shows that I think are doing well for HBO error in current production.

And obviously, I guess Dune Prophecy, which with Dune 3 coming and... I was just laughing. It's like, I guess, obviously. That's our feeling about it. And it's a Dune show. So I'm kind of like it bears mentioning. then there are the shows that are winding down or ending. Industry, House of the Dragon,

Last of Us, Last of Us still may be on the air for a couple more years, but I think they're probably like thinking of ways to start bringing the ship back home. I think they said four, didn't they? They did. I don't know how long that's going to take. Truly.

And then, you know, Halfman and DTF, we didn't talk about Halfman. DTF we talked about briefly, but those seem like one and done's. I'm surprised. I mean, I don't know, I don't have insider knowledge on this. But, and I know it wasn't for us and it made people quite frustrated, but it does seem like DTF was a success ratings wise and internally. Yes. And so I have no idea about their HBO's relationship with Stephen Conrad or Stephen Conrad's desire to do any, but like you could do DTF Des Moines. Like, that could be White Lotus. Sure. Or you could do another Stephen Conrad show, which I think is what I would like to see. And then, you could do. they have lanterns and House of the Dragon on the way, imminently, and Harry Potter, obviously, at Christmas time. It's an interesting moment because, you know, like, I think we have...

Do you want me to talk about if Peaves is in it? Who? Peaves. Who's Peas? He wasn't in the movies. Oh. So that's two ways you haven't ever encountered this character. Go on.

We've done state of HBO conversations before. I think a lot of the slate looks very strong. It really doesn't matter. because it's it can't be repeated enough they have been purchased by Paramount. You also,

I think, left out the most interesting returning show on the HBO network set in Delaware County about a task force if you will. Did you say task?

Yeah. Sorry, I was blanking out. We're having a problem, not you and I, but like, you know, when I was doing the

buried alive thing last episode and I was like, hey everybody, like tell me who you think the best buried alive. Like, mine's definitely killed Bill.

And I got 10 million emails that were just like Beatrix kiddo from Kill Bill and I'm like, I know I said that. Unless I was having a stroke and didn't say that, but maybe I'm not. Only a few of the emails were from me. I'm not distinctive enough podcaster. Yeah. It's fine. Anyway, I just thought I would mention that these two shows are ending.

That euphoria, which obviously was a intermittent presence in HBO's lineup and HACs, which has been a very consistent presence. Well, Max has its two. pit adjacent series coming. There's there's the the police show. Is that Catalina Island? No. What is that? Oh, is that the family show? No, that's the one about a guy, a sheriff on Catalina. Is it about him policing the Catalina wine mixer? I hope so. No, there's the Milo Ventimilia show. Yeah, there's a cop show. And then there also, there's a family drama being led by Ray Romano. Yeah. So I guess not, like we just kind of did our best to find the positive and euphoria.

So I don't want to do any more, what's the term the kids use, glazing. But I do think what you described is actually a best case scenario. I think in terms of industry position of a network that has a very, very steady floor. Yes. And it's a very different floor than HBO had 10 years ago or certainly 20 years ago in the that it is built on more mainstream-facing stuff that works like Game of Thrones stuff and DC stuff and, you know, Bill Lawrence comedy, rooster, and then also all of this, you know, broadcast-minded, all those things on Max.

The optimist case for that is Paramount or whomever in the end, but probably Paramount, is buying something pretty solid. Yeah. And that there is room to iterate on top of it. And there's room for Casey to say to all of the Ellisons, perhaps in some sort of like, remember when on righteous gemstones, when the Gemstone siblings would receive people sitting on their three thrones? I imagine that's how the Ellisons do it? That's what it'll be like, where it's like Larry Ellison and the young Ellison.

Megan? No, not Megan. What's our guy? David? David Ellison. and then maybe like Scott Bessent or whatever, being like, actually, it's a good sign for the economy that everyone's poor. In anyway, Casey could be like,

there's actually room here for me to take a little money off the top for like three more somebody somewhere's or a bigger artistic splash. But do you feel like it's an end of an error in a different way? No, I mean, I think it's an end of an error because of the corporate machinations. I don't think. I think if anything, the end of succession and Barry should show us

that we shouldn't do this kind of like, what's HBO going to do now that hacks is gone? It's like, I think they'll figure it out. I know. You think we shouldn't do the thing we just did? No, I think that the reason to be like, I wonder what's going to happen next for HBO is because they are going to be part of a different corporate parent, not because they continuously, you know, and they morph.

They change. There's always going to be these like HBO 2027 is not going to look like HBO 2021. But, you know, we always wind up kind of coming back home. Did you mention Harry Potter in the list of shows? I did, man. Yeah. Yeah. Is that where Peeves?

Peaves, yeah. Peaves or beaves? We're doing the Arrest of Development bit? Beads! Bees! It's beaves, man. Let's talk about a show before we get out of here that I fucking love. And I knew I was going to like it.

I didn't think I was going to be blown away by the way I was. We're talking about Star City. This is a... I guess it's a spinoff. There are characters in Star City that appear in for all mankind. Played by different actors.

I think. Different actors. It's set in the 60s in Russia, then the Soviet Union. This comes from Matt Walpert, Ben Davidi, and Ronald Moore, who are also in charge of, for all mankind. Although I believe Wolpert and Naviti basically do the brunt of that show. Yes, they are the showrunners of both of these projects. And I'm going to say this, and I don't really have a way of making this statement true, but it's how I feel. Okay. Is this the Andor of for all mankind Star Wars? Wow.

Okay. Sure. They Chernobyled this. This is... It's rare to see a project of such deep, deep influence, but also kind of get away with it. Yeah. So it is Russian characters speaking in English accents portrayed by English-speaking performers, for the most part, I believe.

It stars Recyphins as the... chief designer of the Soviet space program. Anna Maxwell Martin as Ludmilla Roscova, a KGB intelligence officer who oversees the security of that space program. And then it's got a bunch of performers that I'm either now fans of or never seen before. So we have Agnes O'KC. playing arena who will turn up on For All Mankind eventually. and she is Raskova's new protege at the KGB.

So this character is on, the reason it's a different actor is because it's an older version of the character on For Allman. Apparently, I think that they showed up on, she shows up in season four. Alice Engler, who plays Anastasia Belakova, the first woman in space. First woman on the moon, dog. Sorry, on the moon. Adam Negatis and Salomon-Claude, they play Valia and Sasha, respectively, who are two. And Adam, we know, because he was one of the fire.

fire buddies on Chernobyl. That's right. And there are some Chernobyl faces on this show. The, uh, I mean, this is not really like a piece of cultural criticism. I like, uh, watching trained English, Irish, Welsh and otherwise actors imbueing scripts with just incredibly lived in performances immediately. This feels like a 70s conspiracy thriller with a sci-fi by a plausible, realistic sci-fi bent. It's an alternative history of the space race for all mankind. It's told from the U.S. perspective. This is told from the Soviet perspective.

And what you get in the first episode is essentially Raskova is leading a mole hunt inside of the Star City. Star City. And when the prospective first woman on the moon is thought to be a spy for the Americans, she's replaced by Anastasia Belikova, played by Engler, and because it's thought that Anastasia will be more pliant to the party's needs and meanwhile

so that that whole like going up to the moon where the woman is happening and it's quite tense and well shot and it is gorgeous Nick Murphy directed this first two batch this two episode batch that went up and then the second episode which I don't want to get too far into because you haven't had a chance to see it is about Anastasia's victory

promo tour and the ways in which they are using her to sort of as a propaganda piece. But deepening the mole hunt and Irina's being pulled into the dark side of security work for the KGB. I don't know if there is a light side of security work for the KGB. Yeah. Sort of the light fun. Who's like the Luke Skywalker of the KGB? I guess we're going to find out.

The show is fucking awesome. It uses in much the same way Chernobyl does the brutalest decaying textures of... Lithuania. They shot in Lithuania? Hell yeah. Shout out Lithuania. To just give everything this kind of light,

cigarette smoked on, moldy, decaying, the lights don't always work, feel. And yet at the same time, you know, you're watching... this moment of great optimism and idealism, and to see it sort of broadcast in this different way in both two different ways. One, if the Soviets made it to the moon first, but two, in this way in which like every victory

is also a thing that needs to be controlled, a thing that needs to be interrogated, a thing that needs to be buttoned up, whereas on the U.S. side, everything is sort of this expression of a new kind of American exceptionalism and American. and imperialism. I mean, it's beautifully characterized in the scene in which the chief designer is

rewarded for his, is absolutely outrageous victory, but it's in an empty room and he has to give the metal back. Yeah. Paul Spriggs is the name of the production designer, who previously worked on sex education, which is a very different palette. Yeah. So, Bravo, production designers, unsung heroes of all television. So for as much as this is, first of all, I just want to get your general thoughts on the episode you watched. Well, I kind of want to, I loved it. And I, I can't wait to watch more. This may seem counterintuitive, but my reference point for watching the show

was actually Spider-Noir, which we talked about last week, which is to say, I no longer understand what gets greenlit and what doesn't. Nothing makes sense to me anymore. For All Mankind, which is a sturdy show

in terms of its, I believe, its performance and the engagement that it gets for Apple is not a hit show, I think, by any metric, Even within Apple's own, you know, not many people have Apple, despite its ubiquity and its unlimited budgets. So the fact that that series is getting a Russian-centered spin-off back in the 60s in many ways telling the B-side to a story that was the story of the first season of For All Mankind, which was eight years ago. It's fucking crazy.

Like, spinoffs in their best case don't retain the full audience of the... mother's ship. With recyfons and Anno Maxwell Martin leading it. Leading it. And without any attempt to make this sex, I mean, there's sex in it. It's like, they didn't. No. There seems to be an understanding that this is going to be mostly an artistic, frankly, project in the shadow of a show that isn't, hasn't set the world on fire. Now, maybe this will be a wonderful outcome for everyone where what we felt about the first episode or two episodes, we'll be borne out by the rest of it, and then it'll have a sudden surge and may, you know, become incredibly popular in its own right, and we'll do our best to make that happen.

But it's wild to me. Is it a, is it, and secondarily, I think we should say for people listening, you do not need to watch For All Mankind, I think, to engage in the show. Yeah, I've watched the first two and a half seasons of For Allman. I watched the first two seasons. I was talking to my daughters about it on the way to school because they asked what we were talking about on the podcast, and then they asked me to tell them everything that happened at the end of Euphoria. How did you do that? I mostly focused on the laxatives that Wayne took because that kind of humor is always sells,

especially on the way to school. Okay. The premise of for all mankind remains elite and so cool and so compelling and such a great use of television to be like, let's do this and let's really, really try it. But I found it too big and too ambitious and I just didn't enjoy the watching of it

as much as I admired it. I don't think you need to have watched it to watch this or to appreciate it. I just spent half this episode being like, how are we getting this? This is wild. But I should not question it. I'm glad they're spending their money on this. There was something kind of like, and I don't mean this is a blanket criticism of a show that I haven't watched in a couple of seasons.

I've kept up with what's kind of happening on all mankind. So for all mankind, for what I understand, every season is a decade leap forward into this alternate history. They're in the 90s, I think now. Or into the 2000s. and now there is a full colony on Mars. Yes. Because the idea of for all mankind, the fundamental rupture in our space and time

is that the Russians won, which is what we see happen in the opening moments, beautifully and brilliantly. I mean, pilots are hard. The opening moments of the show are so excellent at bringing you into everything that the show is going to be about and also making you understand something, if you are a fan of the other show,

that you're going to be seeing it from the other side. Yes, and it's like the paranoia and terror that then mixes with a moment of triumph and pride is really, really excellent. And the domestic versus the profession, just a completely different perspective on it. It's so, so, so well done. But that the idea that in For All Mankind,

this loss of the space race led to an American obsession of catching up, which led to a completely transformed second half of the century into the new century in which space is everything. Yes. As opposed to something we did and we won and we moved on from. There are these character moments. And I, you know what, I want you to watch the second one

and then we could talk about it in more detail. but what I will say is that I'm sure if I did like a forensic scouring of what's happened on for all mankind I could come up with like a pretty solid synopsis of what's going to happen on Star City

but there are these character beats that I find enchanting enchanting in a way that like kind of reminds me of the of Battlestar Ronald Moore's Battlestar Galactica of like you start out and you think this is going to be the mechanic I get it.

And you're like, oh my God, I had no idea like this is where we were going to wind up. And even some of the cosmonauts are being given character depth that you just didn't, you know, you would not necessarily need to imbue the seventh guy on the show with this like, this is what I want. And but this is who I am. And this is the frustration that comes along with it. It's really, really top-notch TV. And I'm really excited to keep watching it.

I think you're going to adore the second episode. Even more. Oh, I think so. Yeah. And if I had a critique for all mankind, even though I, you know, I like Joel Kinneman as a performer. I'd like a lot of the people who are on it. There was a certain kind of like, it's not like a falseness. There was like, I was always aware that I was watching people on a TV show. Okay. And it felt like dress up. And this doesn't, even though there is a complete. artifice to the fact that all of these people are Russians speaking English. The least generous take on that is that they found the Chernobyl filter that works. It's a filter on the show, the way they speak accented English as Russian, the way Russian sounds in English, referring to people as chief designer, which actually is more common in Russian than it would be in English.

But we speak this fictional language now. Yes. And they're doing a great job of doing a show in that language. not just mimicry. Yeah. We got a couple things on the cast, a couple of small notes. Sure.

One, happy to see Elliot Salt. She plays the other listening person. Remember, she was on slow horses in like two seasons ago. Damn, that's a... This lady, recognized her immediately from that. Love seeing these people get good work. I'm paying close attention. Partly because, as you know,

I'm constantly on NEPO watch. Ever since we started this podcast, and I've looked across at you, you know, it's Nephawatch. Sure. Because I stand on the shoulder of giants. I mean, who amongst, I mean, what other critics were willing to shit on Godfather, too, you know, in a way, like, imagine he would have killed on a podcast. So I think we have to talk about the fact that Alice Engler is clearly the daughter of... You have to defend this, Atticus Finch. This is actually fun for me. No, she is the daughter of Jane Campion, who is the great director.

she was in Top of the Lake, her mom's TV show. She's awesome. I don't actually have a take on this. It was just funny to see that. It is. And as it was funny to see that Tanya Miranova, who's one of the cosmonaut's wife, who's keeping up a little something on the side,

is Andy Circus's daughter. I did not know that. Yeah. Her name being Ruby Circus, didn't give it away? The character who I think has been the one that has blossomed for me, the most is Alice Englert's, Anastasia character. She is a, the NEPO thing is a joke,

especially when we're talking about, a dedicated artistic person, like Jane Campion and her family. Like, I'm not really worried about the benefits of the leg up she got in the Kiwi film industry. But it's actually... Do you think when she's like at auditions, they're like, top of the lake, must be nice? No, no, the piano, huh? When did your mom show you that? Yeah.

No, I think that as an actor, she is surprising in her presentation, in her line readings, in what she brings to it. And this is just through one episode that, like, you notice. Yeah. And that's especially noteworthy casting, I think, in a show in which the aesthetic is primary, that everything is kind of brutalist and gray and there's snow and you can't do pops of color to distinct. Oh, well, that character wears a saucy

scarf. That's telling us something. No, they can't do that. So casting becomes even more important. Yeah. And the contrast that the show does between her and the cosmonaut that she replaces within the episode is expertly done. Yes. We will continue to talk about this. The third episode goes up on Friday, so maybe we'll talk a little bit about episode two on Thursday, but I think we'll probably consistently chat about this show throughout its season if I had to guess. Yeah, and then we're going to hit maximum pleasure. We're going to stay in the Apple. Apple's just got us. We do nothing but serve our big brother. Tim Apple. Yeah, so Widows Bay

on Thursday, Top Chef on Thursday, maybe a little bit more Star City. Kristen said this is her favorite episode of Top Chef this season. Did you know that? I did not know that. That's good to know. I also heard, this is just now we're just into Reddit stuff, but like a PA who worked on the show said that said that the edit actually helped Seeker because it was much worse. The edit of his behavior during the jury or he's at the edit of like his cooking? No, no, the jury.

Like his crash out. So they crashed out and that they were like, let's be decent about this. Release the Seeker cut. Okay. That's my hill. Seeger stands. Hit us up about your man. Tell us. Just tell us about what it's like eating melted chicken.

Thank you for watching Euphoria with me. Thank you for podcasting with me today. Thank you for inviting me. We're going to be back on Thursday and everybody have a good week. Okay.