The Watch - ‘Furious’ Season Finale With Star Emmy Rossum and Creator Liz Meriwether

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Chris and Andy break down the finale of ‘Furious’ Season 1 and talk about why this show ended up being so successful (1:01). Then Andy is joined by star Emmy Rossum and series creator Liz Meriwether to talk about how the project came together, depicting the long tail of trauma on screen and striking the right tonal balance, what’s in store for Season 2, and much more (13:17). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Emmy Rossum and Liz Meriwether Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. He's wearing a tropical shirt. It's Andy Greenwald. Big Monday.

Big Monday. We're going to talk about the Furious finale here today, Andy. Special guests, Liz Maryweather, the creator of Furious and Emmy Rossum, the star of Furious, are joining you shortly. I unfortunately was not able to participate in that interview due to Ringer NFL fantasy football commitments, which I don't think people who are, I don't think the cast and crew of furious would appreciate that.

I just think they know who the ally is here. I did want to talk to you about the finale, which I thought was phenomenal, ending a fantastic first season, question mark. Question mark. Give me some of your impressions about this finale, man. Here's the way we're going to do this. This is, ready? Yeah.

This is a phenomenal season of television. This is without question one of the best shows of the year. I would put this first season up against some of the other great, if this is only one and done, some of the other great one season wonders of the recent past, including I May Destroy You, with which it cheers some DNA. I thought the finale was brilliant on its own terms

and especially excellent when you consider it as another example of the master class in pacing that this entire season was. that it got to the end and had room for intrigue, for surprise, for sleight of hand, narrative sleight of hand, for humor, for a lot more romance than I expected, and then also for an ending that, you know, as you were alluding to, was ambiguous in the best possible way. But I wanted to talk specifically when we talked about this episode, and I will, of course, talk about this as well with Emmy and Liz, that this was an episode of three examples of face acting. by Emmy throughout the episode.

There are three moments that I think were just exceptional and so interesting and kind of frame the episode. At the beginning, we get what appears to be one of Alice's first ever smiles of excitement as she says dishonestly to Nora that she will not go into the house alone.

The second bit of face acting comes much later in the episode when she takes Nora's advice and runs right at the most awful thing in the world and watches the video of her young self in the hideous evidence crypt room. The chamber, yeah. And the third is her expression at the end

when Catherine says to her, you know, did you like how it felt? And the expression that suggests any number of things, including a slightly demented future for Alice. Yeah. Incredible performance all around and an incredible journey

even within this episode for a character that has had a lot to do over the course of eight episodes. I think it's that last bit of face acting that struck me the most because one of my favorite parts about this show so far has been the moments of,

maybe not ambiguity morally, but ambiguity dramatically. And not being didactic, not repeating circumstances with dialogue when we can see on somebody's face how they're feeling about something. And when you're locked into the performers

at the level of, of what Lola Predacru and Emmy Rossum are giving you, you can kind of read your own story and you read your own emotional reaction into what their behaviors are dictating. And rather than having them tell you, like, this is why I did what I did and how I feel about what I did.

I think it's messier than that. And I think it's less simple than this was right or this was wrong or this was justified or that was unlawful. It's more fucked up and hazy and visceral, and it's both at the same time. And very few television shows now do that because of market forces that demand that they let you know

what's happening on screen while you're looking at your phone while it's happening. I thought that this was a show that always made a choice and always seemed to have an intention from the, as we've pointed out many times before, the incredible score that accompanies this and is a character unto itself. Aerial marks.

The anamorphic shooting style, the performances. So, yeah, like, that's what stuck with me as that last moment. This show demonstrated an almost uncanny ability to understand what merited our attention as audience. It was unflinching in that in terms of what parts of the story to attend to and what parts not to attend to. And I think that to your point about, like, market forces and things, I also, when we, we talk about tropes in this genre, there are often beats that are part of the transaction. Like you invest or you buy, you spend your time on something and you think you're going to be rewarded with certain types of scenes, like whether it's justice or violence being returned

upon the perpetrator in some way. I think when I say this, I'm thinking specifically about what happens with Marshall, who is Jake Lacey's character, who gets a lot of screen time early on and in surprising and upsetting ways. His return from his from his gunshot wound two episodes ago was effective, devastating, and entirely appropriate. We see him at the end of the episode at a NYPD ceremony. He's in a wheelchair. It's unclear whether that is permanent or not. And he's being given a commendation for all of what that he did to bring down Catherine. Yeah, which was not even on his radar and he's getting a medal and he's getting a promotion. And that's about all the time we have for him. And it's reminding us one of the show's cruelest lessons, which is things don't really

change. Certain circumstances change. Certain people have opportunities to enact small venances or, you know, there may no longer be a Jay Easton specifically, but there are many other Jay Eastons and the cycle continues. And in a way, the most horrifying line in the whole episode is Ed saying to Nora at the mansion, she was just a dead girl. And his calculus of the information that he got that led to a more splashy bust or national security to his mind far outweighs Isabel's life, which was pointed in the wrong direction anyway. It's, there's just a clarity of focus in the show about what matters and what it's trying to tell us that is really, really impressive and really hard to maintain. I thought also, you know, we've compared this show to

killing Eve. You mentioned I may destroy you. You know, both stories about female rage and female women trying to find justice in this world. I also kept thinking about the wire while I was watching this last episode.

I've been re-watching bits and pieces of the wire because there's an HBO channel that's just like playing it right now. And I had forgotten the kind of nuances of when they're first setting up the cases in the first season of the wire and when they kind of culminate in the third season of the wire

about the idea of what the real criminal is, who the real criminal is and what the real crime is rather than street drug dealing, which may be a nuisance and may bring down lives. It's more about like, what's the political overstructure that allows us to happen? What is the institutional, like, culpability? who are the major players that we need to be going after.

That not satisfying the people who are like, but DiAngelo or Wallace or whatever. I felt like there was echoes of that in this story. And you're confronted with like, not only the differences between the way that the FBI and the police department are trying to go about their business in this show, but somebody who's so cravenly, obviously evil, like Jay Easton, somebody who's at least her belief in herself

is that she is a victim, is Emma Easton, played by Dave's character. And we are at the end of this season, I think it's asking the audience to think about who that character is and what becomes of her. Rather than, you know, if there is a second season, sure, it could be the hunt for Emma Easton or whatever. But I think the show is going to go somewhere else

if it continues? It's a beauty. The last limbs we have of her is of something spilling out of a bag she can't carry intercut with the grave being dug. And it's really heavy to think about.

Like what are the victories, quote unquote, of this season? Isabel's, you know, defaced remains are recovered and moved from an unmarked grave to a mark grave. That's pretty much it.

Yeah. Not to say that doesn't doesn't matter, but it's a question of, you know, like what Ed says to Nora, like, there's something wrong with you for wanting to stay in the basement. You're sick. You're sick for doing that. But then someone has to do it. And the dignity of that and the rage that, the hopelessness or the frustration that entails is so palpable in the show. I love that, you know, in week one, you correctly as a longtime viewer of things, quote unquote, like this, pointed out Scoot McNary's character. Is there going to be a turn? Is he going to be McBain, is he

whatever, but he was doing his best. And the show had room for him to have a potentially hopeful outcome, both romantically and in his own life. It had enough room for that shot of him telling Nora that he was just carrying his dirty laundry. And then he flips his NYPD cap on backwards. And you watched that moment. And I'm like, I don't know if that was Scoot McNary fucking around on take nine, but it's so alive. And you can't get it out of your head. And where do you find the room in the space for it. So how did you feel about the ambiguity of the ending? Would you like more of the show? Do you think it's primed for more? I can't really get a sense for how commercially or audience-wise successful the show is obviously critically. It's been really, really well regarded. I would imagine, given the way

it ends and given the button on Catherine viewing her own footage and then seeing who's downloaded it and the usernames and all of that, like that would give a runway for, like what she's going to be investigating next season. It could also turn her into something of an avenging angel if this continues to be like. But I think what's beautiful about that is you're right. There's the sense that there's been a baton pass between these women who shared a certain experience and a certain perspective. The idea that the way that even within this episode, Liz, who wrote the episode, hid the ball

of what actually happened to Jay Easton, again, it's not like, you know, it's not like a usual suspects. It's not like a whoa twist. but the way that it's doled out is some beautiful narrative sleight of hand. Yeah, when he first passes away, I was like, I wonder if his daughter triple dosing. Yeah, there's something to think about.

But then you see what it is. But what I'm really struck by at the end is that it sets up the idea that maybe Alice is going to become some sort of Avenger as well. But this is not, this is 2026. This is the internet. There are 50,000 stupid names,

just stupid, you know, usernames. usernames. Some of these people might be evil, but some of them just are probably just men. And I don't think a second cease. I'm not saying you were saying this, but like, I love the way it handed us a premise while also invalidating the premise, because she may be reckless, and I would imagine if the show continued, it would be more self-destructive tendencies professionally and otherwise for Alice, but she is not going to go on a 50,000 username killing spree. Sure. You know what I mean? And so I love the way it gave us.

I meant more as she would, on them now, like, legally, like she would. She would be like, here are the people that we need to now. Maybe, but also what I love is that it suggested that what is anyone ever going to do? One drop in the ocean versus giant tsunami. And it's just a very rare alchemy, I think, to have a show that succeeds so profoundly on a creative level of, like, Quincy Tyler Bernstein's performance. Danny McCarthy, who plays Ed George, which is an absolutely superstar, subtle supporting performance. Ariel Marx's score, The Beautiful Direction, Corey Finley in this episode, many others throughout the season and just the humor and the heart and the life so that when she

walks into the bullpen at the end and Choi's there, I'm like, wow, this is a TV show. That's what I mean. You have that. And yet it never, it never lost sight of what the message and what the thematic weight of what the show wants to communicate was. Like, that is a very hard thing to do both successfully and leave you after eight episodes even wanting more. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to listen to your interview with Liz and Emmy. And we'll get into that. And then we'll be back on Thursday to talk about lanterns, and much more. So much more. I am so thrilled to be joined once again on the pod by returning guests, the creator and showrunner of Furious, Liz Meriweather, and the executive producer and star Emmy Rossum. Thank you so much for being here and congratulations on one of the

best shows of the year. Thank you. Thank you. So much. We have to do a little housekeeping at the top because this interview is beginning right at the end of Chris and I spoke about the finale. And we spent a great amount of time talking about, you know, well, if they do renew it, well, surely they will, but they might. And then we finish recording and Hulu, I do believe, tapped into our studio and waited until the moment we cut to send the press release. So we are not breaking news, but if you have been listening to this podcast wondering what was wrong with me and with Chris, the show has been renewed for second season.

Congratulations on that. Thank you. Thank you. This was not news to the two of you, I imagine. No. No. We were three weeks into the writer's room. Okay.

I feel like I was like three weeks into the writer's room on season one, and I was like, what's season two? I'm Thursday. You knew from the beginning. Was it designed from the beginning to potentially run multiple years? No, nothing has been designed about this. I don't know how to design stuff. I'm three weeks into the writer's room on season two, and I have no idea what's going to happen. So, yeah.

Should we use this as an opportunity for, like, growth and healing? Do you want to just sort of pitch Emmy on where you're at right now? Yeah, let's do that. Let's workshop it right now. Let's bring Emmy in on some of your ideas. Hey pressure. Yeah. Let's do it.

In fact, let's stream this live. I'll get some thoughts. Honestly, if you have thoughts on season two, please let me know. Let me open up a different doc. I also do want to acknowledge that this will be on video and thank you for getting the memo about the dress code. Yeah, we decided to dress exactly the same. I appreciate it. Yes.

We're both wearing a white shirt and we're wearing like a cool writer. Yeah. We're just writers. We're just writers. Oh, this old thing? Yeah. A.K. the one shirt I'll wear on camera. Whatever. I just threw it on.

And sadly, Chris was wearing the same shirt as you. A tropical shirt. Yeah. That's why he's not here. That is one of my favorite. I mean, I'm kind of like complimenting myself, but is one of my favorite lines. Why is she wearing a tropical shirt? Yeah. That's why I wear this tropical shirt. It is one of. You don't look like enough. And they're like, excuse me.

I mean, you know, why is she in a tropical shirt? I love it. I love that actor. He kept auditioning. Like, we didn't cast him. for multiple things, and he kept coming in, and I was like, the cop, the cop. And it was like exciting. And the casting told me so much because the Greenwich Police Department allows you to have hair down to a certain length.

You know, it's not like the New York Angeles. You know what I mean? They have a different... We got a little loose towards the end. Sure. We're like, oh, whatever, he's fine. But genuinely, I'm glad the Tropical Shirt moment is so special because to me it captures what is amazing about the show.

Even in the midst of one of the most frenetic and intense and emotional finale's in recent memory. You have room for a shirt joke. You have room for it. Yeah. But I think you're always bringing life to even the smallest characters, like in that moment where Eduardo comes to Ed George and is like, hey, I am also Ed Eduardo, Ed George. And Ed George is like, tell me what's on the damn laptop. I think that there's such specificity of like, it's also setting up those dynamics, but it's so funny and it's so, it gives you the levity that allows you to go to the such dark places that It's honestly, like, I'm just so bad at naming. She can't help herself.

I'm so bad at, like, naming characters. And, like, it's like this, I just, like, needed a guy to, like, work in tech. And I was like, what are I going to? Okay, his name's also Ed. I was like, I think there's something about kind of being, like, very late and turning in scripts and being very tired. And then you just, like, lose it. And then you, you know, come up with Eduardo because you have no other ideas and it's the middle of the night. And yet now months later we're talking about it.

Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, I will say, like, that that sort of tropical shirt, that when we were cutting the finale, it was like, that scene in the, I don't even know what you call it, the, like. Safe room. The room of hell where Jason has his stash. That scene is so intense. And then there was probably another, like, five minutes of material outside of the house that was, like, comedic. There was a lot of like cop banter and sort of, you know, a pissing contest kind of stuff. And I think you helped me like, you watch the finale and you were like, or somebody did where there was like, let's do a little less of like Greenwich PD comedy.

Because it's like that is the trick with the show is kind of finding the balance and finding the tone. and it was hard to go from, you know, really silly jokes back into that room. And so it was, for me, it was just like this constant kind of feeling it out. Like how, but I think if we, you know, if you didn't leave that room, I think it would be too much. So it was kind of like just figuring out how to find that balance. The balance is amazing. But I love specifically what you just said, Emmy, which is that there's room for life. Like I'm still hung up on a different moment from the finale, which is when Scoot says he's just carrying his dirty laundry.

and he works out with his hat on backwards. That was scoot. That wasn't in the script. I wondered. But he kept it. Oh, God, of course. And because it's like, oh, this is, it reminds you that there's someone alive in here in these characters in this production and this whole process.

I feel like it was something I learned with dying for sex because it was, I think if you are going to go to these incredibly dark places, you have to give people a chance to breathe or else they're just going to shut down. It's like too much. So I think that was like, I think, in order to get people to listen, you have to get them to laugh in the middle of it somewhere. So, yeah. It's something that Damon Lindelof once said to me about the difference between season one and

season two of the leftovers was he remembered or someone reminded him that people laugh at wakes. Yeah. That they're not like a performance only of misery, that there's life. To see the dark, you have to see the light. And to know what is what the cost is. Like there are these people, Alice and Nora, like doing this in incredibly difficult job and just trying to hold on to their souls, trying to hold on to their humanity. And then you want to see their humanity. You want to see them like as people. And

then you kind of see how hard it is for them to keep that joy or keep that like humanity in all of it. Well, that's specifically something, Emmy, you may have heard me say this. We know Liz doesn't listen to the podcast. So I can't, I don't like, I don't read reviews. I just, I can't engage. I went down that path with New Girl and I like, it took me years to climb out of it. So I just don't. I'm I said here and tell you to read the internet. I'm definitely not going to give you that advice. I think you're making the right choice. You mean you're not reading the subredits?

I am definitely not on the subreddit. But a writer in our writer's room is on the subreddit. And it's like constantly bringing in like thoughts on the subreddit. Well, one thing that I was saying a lot in the first few episodes that really struck me was that, you know, if you were going to do the log line of the show or if someone is going to be sort of glib about writing about it, they might say it is about, you know, traumatic events or traumatic histories. But what I found so striking from the beginning was that it was very much about a present, a present moment where people who may have experienced trauma, they have been traumatized, but they are alive right now. And then what do we do? And I don't know if that's too heady a thought, but I wondered if that was something that existed in your writing or even in your prep in terms of how to become this woman and live in the immediate present of her life, not consistently be pulled into her past. Yeah, well, I think, you know, I think the character's superpower,

Liz is choking on her tea. It's because she pulled the bag too early. See, this is the problem. People just tuning in. Amy got her tea timing perfect. Liz, wardrobe right, but tea was a mess. Please, please continue. I think the character's superpower is her ability to dissociate from herself.

It, when trauma comes up, you see that she's squeezing her hands, progressive muscle relaxation. It's intentional to try to make those feelings subside to go away to put him back in the box. This is a character who has a lot of secrets. She doesn't believe she can get justice for herself. Doesn't maybe even think she's the right kind of person that is deserving of justice. So she's definitely also because of her trauma got obsessive tendencies, definitely not diagnosed, and puts that all into the work and stays extremely present

and extremely driven on anything except herself. And, you know, she's buttoned all the way to the top, doesn't want anyone to get close, smells probably subconsciously, intentionally to keep people away from her. She is driven in this moment

to not look back. And it's going to be this case and, you know, having to come in contact with the X and the kind of thread that she shares with this killer that is going to make all this stuff come up for her that's going to force her to kind of the rage is going to uncork in a way that like the pressure in that bottle has been it's been just there's a lot of white knuckling going on.

I just think also I think you see the moment of trauma on TV a lot. Yeah. Yes. You know, the thing that happens. that's, but you don't see the years, the long tail of trauma, you know, like you don't see the years after. And so I think there's a misunderstanding around the process of healing because you don't see it a lot because it's not dramatic. You know, it's like, I get it. The trauma part is more exciting.

But I think it was really interesting. Actually, I spoke to a woman who had been trafficked, Jay Benke, who runs advocacy groups now. And she was talking about her experience with the justice system was they kind of come in, they want to get quote unquote justice, punishment, they want to get someone sentenced. But there's no engagement with what happens after that and sort of the long process of healing and how do you just like figure out how to be a person again after you've been trafficked and all this stuff. So I do think I'm proud of the show kind of like showing, well, one person became a serial. killer, but I'm proud of the show, like, showing the complexities of that and the difficulties

of it and the, you know, how it doesn't make sense. A lot of the times it has a very, like, nonlinear, healing is nonlinear and complicated and messy. And I think Emmy does such an incredible job of showing that and performing that and just, she just dove right into it in a great way. I do want to ask eventually, I'm going to have some questions about the genesis of the project, but I want to stay on the finale just for a moment since people have just watched it. Specifically, there were three moments that really defined the episode for me, and they are three moments of face acting by you. Sure.

That are spectacular. My favorite. My favorite kind of acting is nonverbal. Feel free to do some now as well. Wait a second. Nonverbal is your favorite. My favorite. Why was I working so hard?

I don't know. I love not talking. Not talking is my favorite kind of acting. Just hand her the 201 script and it's blank. Yeah. That's like blank. Just close. Close on Alice.

She face acts. Fade out. Beautiful. Okay, so here are the three moments. I want to run by you, and then we could talk about them in the context of the character's journey and also the finale.

There is a smile on the way to Jay Easton's house when Alice lies to Nora about going in the house alone. And it is one of, at least to my eyes, one of the purest smiles the character is given during the course of the season. The second is, of course, the long hold on your face when you watch the horrific video.

And there is intensity, there's reaction, there's horror, there's tears, and then there is a second look. The third is the, I wrote in my notes, Hunter slash Hungary, when you see the 50,000 gross user names of people who have downloaded the file. That's the journey of Alice in the episode.

Might also be the journey of Alice in the season. I do have questions about the sort of granular process of finding those moments and a character that you've been building over the course of the season, and then maybe to you list just about the journey. The first one, I don't think, was a scripted reaction.

she knows by this point that she has this kind of secret bond with Nora and Nora is kind of giving her the go ahead to go into that house and she also knows that Danny cares about her don't go into that house and that's ultimately even though she won't admit it to herself what she wants and also there's the excitement of I know I'm going into that fucking house and like you said on the pod like everything is converging on this like scary monster house which is like just so exciting like it's all coming to an apex and like something is going to happen. And then the second one is the watching of the tape, which I think trauma is so

interesting because Alice has been wanting to get into that room since the first episode, even when she goes down to C20 in the first episode, she looks at the keypad and she wants in that room and we don't know why yet. And I don't know if she knows that the tape, how widely the tape exists, didn't disclose it, doesn't know how widely it's. But like trauma is weird and we we block things out and I don't I think seeing the video is so incredibly painful at the same time as somehow feeling relief like you're not crazy and also like just watching your young self get hurt is just like really horrific. And it's weird because trauma is so weird and dissociative. We can misremember things all the time, which is obviously what's happening with Catherine.

And yesterday, two days ago, I was at lunch with Quincy and we were talking about when we were training for this. And then Quincy plays Nora. No, plays Nora. You guys went to an FBI. We got snuck on to West Point. We like laid flat in a truck. Oh, West Point, right. And got snuck onto West Point.

I had already been training with. You didn't tell me that you. laid flat on a... Yeah, we laid flat. Were you worried Liz was going to narc you out? I don't know. I think we were just like, this is crazy, but like, I want to do everything. Like, give me...

Hello, is this West Point? Check all your trucks. Anonymous tip from a concerned U.S. citizen. But I had been shooting guns and preparing and clearing rooms and training with ex-FBI and ex-NYPD for a year. Quincy was cast right before we started shooting. And I said, do you want to shoot guns?

Like, let's make this real for us. And so I got us snuck onto West Point. We'll circle back. Don't worry. We'll circle back. They gave us the training. They, like, told us how to interrogate people, told us how to, like, make connections with suspects.

They gave us firearms to shoot. And then they were like, do you want to do grenades? Yeah, you don't know this story. And my remembering of it when we were at lunch yesterday was like, oh, no, thank you. We're all good. And Quincy was like, no, you did the grenade. What? And I was like, I did the grenade.

And she's like 100% You were shaking You were terrified What does it mean when you say I did the grenade? You pull the pin and throw the grenade And it throws up It blows up

Like on this crazy hill With all these bombed out trucks If anyone from H.R. is listening I did not notice Also if anyone from the US Army is listening Please let us know if Do the Grenade is what you say In basic training

That's definitely not Okay soldiers Time to do the grenade And be fabulous when you do it I know I was just picturing a dance We're doing it We're doing the grenade.

Sorry. In any case, allegedly, I did the grenade. I have no memory of this. Quincy definitely remembers this. I guess I was like, I am all for like, let's do whatever it takes to make this as real as possible. Sure. So I did the grenade. So in any case, I think you can misremember things.

And when things have been scary or adrenalized or traumatizing to you, you don't remember them. So I think when she's watching the video, she's like, I know now this really happened. Because this is 25 years ago. Yeah. And you can definitely remember something happening, but seeing it is somehow like crystallizing. Like, yeah, I am a fucking warrior. I am a survivor. Yeah.

Like, I'm not a, like, that was a child and that's not me anymore. Yeah. And then she sees the names and the number, 50,000 plus people have watched this victimization. And I think that's like, okay, now it's now, now I'm galvanized with this information. I don't know what I'm going to do with it. Liz will decide in season two. I'm sure she's already decided. She's already decided.

I know you're going to do a grenade. I'm going to definitely do a grenade. Got settled. I just want to say like we shot, I'm going to just jump in. No one wants to hear my thoughts. Everybody wants. Everybody wants. By the way, I always want to hear your thoughts.

You're good. I was there when we shot her watching the video. And I mean, it's just like this is when you know you're dealing with like a powerhouse actor because Emmy was. able to kind of we talked before we shot the first take, but every take was different. And like, and then she did kind of levels of reactions. Like we did a version that was just very, you know, stone face. We did. And then she worked up to tears and then we were kind of like between every, she's an incredible

actor and also an incredible producer because the ability to kind of give that present, amazing performance and then kind of come back afterwards and be like, that worked. I felt like this was good. Let's do, you know what I mean? Like, that's, it was, it was so moving. And also, she was like, you're going to use the tears. And I was like, of course I'm going to use the tears. What are we talking about?

But I will also say the relationship between your camera operator in that moment and the actor, you're in that scene together, right? Because you're looking down the barrel of the lens and the camera operator is this close to you. And nobody else is in the room. So it really, really is amazing to have operators like we had Philip and Wilda, who are human beings that are like actors. in the room with you and they hold that space with you. And I can't say enough about how important the crew is to scenes like that. But we just, I think we, I think one of the reasons that we did

so many different versions of it was because I, it was, it's kind of unimaginable, right? Like, what do you, how do you react to that? And I, I, I love what you just said, because it's actually, it is something we're talking about in the writers room right now of like, this video is like, it's horrifying that it's out there, but it's also, it's like you do have proof of it. It's like actual tangible. Tangible. Your trauma's tangible in a way that I think is like. It lingers and it feels like you can't wrap your hands around it and now you can.

Because this season, when I sort of put it together that it was going to be about Catherine trying to remember what happened over her, which was like a huge victory in terms of structure and all of that. But it was so much about memory distortion, which is the name of the third episode. But just the whole justice system is built on people being able to remember what happened to them and testify to what happened to them. With confidence.

Which is complete opposite of the experience of being a victim. So I think that, I don't know. I had a point, but I'm just going to stop talking about that was. One of the other reasons why I loved the show is because the show felt incredibly decisive about what it was and where it was going, even if it didn't always feel that way in the process. And I have to say, sometimes I really like it when shows reveal my own cowardly nature because there was a part of me that was so invested in the series that when she clicked on it and when Nora had said, go look for it, that it would be gone. That she had cleaned it up,

that she had taken care of her on a friend level, not a professional level, which would not have worked for character for show. And so there was a, I like when I got called out. by it, you know, because I didn't want that for them. And I wondered, though, if, because the other things that I was admired so much in the season, and we can get into a few other examples of it, was the pacing, that there was room for so much within, you know, it's not a conventional story, but we have seen cat and mouse type stories before. So this finale had room for exciting twists and the surprise at the end. It had room for emotion. It had a surprising amount of room for romance, which I was very happy about, but did not necessarily see coming.

And it had that that collision point at the end that might lead into a second season. So I wondered, Liz, were any of the things I'm mentioning specific beats that you knew you were writing to from the beginning? Romance. Even if only that. I wondered if you did have like a North Star from that episode. Yes, I knew that she loved Danny and Danny loved her. But I didn't know that we were going to take it all the way.

Go all the way, if you will. Do the grenade. Do the grenade. We did the grenade. Two consenting adults, sure. But yeah, I think at that point, I think I needed them to be in that condo. Like, I was just, I felt, I was so in it when I was writing that finale. I didn't know how they were going to get out of the house.

And I remember writing the finale. And I actually had a panic attack. Let's talk about mental health, but no. Please. This is my favorite topic. I had a panic attack because I was like, it was like art imitating life where I was writing them in the Eastern House and I didn't know what they were going to do to get out of the house.

Yeah. But so I was like, I feel like I'm in the house. You know, it was so insane. It was so hard to write that finale. And then it was just such a relief to write the scenes in the condo where I was, I think the part of me that, you know, worked on seven seasons of a will there. or won't they was like I'm doing this too soon but I needed them to like get that win and sort of like have that moment of love because I just felt like we'd all been through so much

that I like wanted her to feel tenderness and love and like you know and I like that it kind of exists outside of the world like it's you know New Jersey which it's out of the space literally yeah it could be any but like it's like you know it's sort of not their normal lives. It's like this other kind of place. I will just as a side note, say that my older daughter out of nowhere yesterday or two days ago said, Dad, do you know that Jess and Nick don't kiss for like 74 more episodes? You know, we used to build things in this country, okay? I know for your instant TikTok ratification. That's really funny. Let's, I want to go back to the beginning because, you know, when the show was announced and the show premiered, there was a lot of

talk about a, to my mind, I did not know the film Black Widow. I did not remember it. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the genesis of the project, was one of you a secret black widow obsessive? How did how did the project come together and how did you two partner on it? Well, you are a black widow, right? Yes, yes, I killed so many of my husbands. I warned Sam Consell. RIP, Sam has been on the phone a couple years. I know, it's true, because I killed him. Nobody seen him. He was out last night, guys. He was seen. Plausible deniability. It's about you being seen out last night that saves you. That's true. No, I went back and I spent a summer watching old movies looking for an idea,

looking for something that would be a jumping off point. I had developed the show Angelene at Hulu at first before I ended up making it a peacock. So I started looking in the searchlight category, catalog, and I just looked at log lines and watched all the movies that I thought might spark something. Black Widow was one with Deborah Winger and Teresa Russell. I had made a movie with Teresa Russell when I was 14. So it was, I didn't know that. Yeah. So it was super high called Pachanada. It was super high on my list of like, I want to watch this one because I remember working with that actress. And I watched the movie and the first half is like Cat and Mouse. Deborah Winger plays this FBI agent who's in this like gross boys club misogynistic environment.

No one's taking her seriously. And I was like, okay, well, that tracks for contemporary day. Not much has changed. And the killer who you know from the first scene is the killer, I felt that was pretty refreshing too. They're giving it to you up front. And it's this kind of there on this collision course. And in the back half, these two women who are both kind of lonely and kind of need a friend end up meeting under false pretenses on this beach in Hawaii or wherever they are. And there's this amazing set piece that I

kept trying to convince Liz we had to put in the first season. She was like, we're not going to a Croatian beach. I don't know what you're talking. Okay. Okay. What? Go to the beach. No, of course. I was like, the beach you're going to get is a cold beach in New Jersey. Did you turn birthday? Literally, she was like, I'll give you a cold beach in New Jersey, but I will not give you. But in the movie, there's like this scuba diving set piece where you don't know if they're going to kill each other or kiss. And it's, and they also like kind of weirdly, become friends, but then you know, and then there's this kind of showdown in the jail at the end. So I was like, okay, and the characters are pretty, like, there's room to kind of beef them up and to

figure out what their psychological profiles are. And so I took the idea to Hulu. They liked it. They had just finished the dropout with Liz and said, do you like Liz? And I was like, no, I love Liz. I don't know Liz, but I know I love Liz. And Liz watched the movie and a day later, they were like, you have a show. Wow. So it was a remarkably almost like kismet-y, process. That's amazing. I spoke to Ronald Bass who wrote Black Widow. We had like one conversation and he said that he had pitched the movie. Like he had just like a bunch of ideas and he just like sort of took one from one idea. One idea. Yeah. Put them together. But no, I mean it's it is such a like strange movie in a great way and it felt because it's a movie it didn't really. It didn't

really have time to get into like all of the backstory of the characters and kind of makes a point to not get into any backstory because debor Winger does this monologue about her dad and then at the end of it is like just kidding it's not true um so it just I felt like oh there's like room here to like explore something and I just I love I love crime shows I just have always loved them and I was been dying to write one but just like kind of didn't know how and didn't know who was going to ask me to write a crime show um but yeah there are multiple times throughout the process where I was like, I should not be writing them. I should have hired somebody else.

I think the movie is ultimately about two women who want to be seen by another person but don't know how to be seen by another person and don't know how to connect with other people. And then they find each other and connect. So I was like, that's so weird in the middle of a crime show to have that be the thing. This may sound facetious. I mean this sincerely that I was thinking that one similarity between New Girl and Furious. I mean, there are many, obviously. But sincerely. I based Alice on Schmidt.

Yeah, the same intensity. But with all seriousness, they are both about the challenges women face navigating primarily male spaces. And Alice's FBI is not the same as the loft. But, you know, we're not the same people we were 15 years ago. We aren't. No, but sincerely, I did wonder if there is a common thread between the shows or just between who you were as a writer then and now that allowed you to use a different medium, not a different medium, but like almost a different register to express the story. I don't know. I mean, it's such a good question, and I don't understand my career.

I haven't, like, I haven't really drawn. But, I mean, the one thing I will say is I do write about people who want to connect with other people but don't know how. I do think that's like I don't know why I do that That's so strange But I think there is something In all of these characters That kind of want to

To find love and connection and friendship And don't know And can't and you know Family Just one of them kills people to do it You know the other one is Elizabeth Holmes I don't know Like it's sure

I try to just inside of you there are tools. Mix it up. One or the other. Yeah. I don't know. I think if I stopped to like really think about any of it, I like, it'll go away. So I'm choosing to like put my head in the sand.

That's why I don't listen to your podcast. That's fine. I don't blame you. But I, but as a film buff also, like I think you also heard me saying this over the last few weeks that like we're on to something here, I think with like Zach Greggar being a sketch comedian who is now the best horror filmmaker of our time. Jordan Peel is another good example. but there's something about maybe it's the life that we're talking about seeing or that that comedy naturally affords writers the ability to share that jumping into the jumping from one genre to another works when it works it works better than almost everything else. I mean you talked about the pacing but I like I do feel like as a comedy writer you have this enormous pressure to like every scene like there needs to be a joke every couple. At least a new girl it was like that kind of traditional.

You got to earn your keep. You got to, like, so there's this pressure on every scene to kind of like, what's the bit, what's the game, where's the joke? And I do think that helped me on this show to kind of like every scene is like, why, you know, like what is the point of this? And to keep that pressure going is something I've learned, yeah, from seven years of trying to make them laugh. Got to make them laugh. So, Emmy, this is a question for you. the EP Emmy, not just the Star Emmy, but like one of the things that I just delighted in week to week was how, and similar to what you're saying about making, having a laugh in every scene,

all the textural aesthetic choices that made the show exciting and surprising from, you know, the way that the credits overlayed to Ariel Marx's score, which just immediately tells you. It's like, oh, I've heard this before. No, I haven't. Throughout the whole thing kind of setting you a little bit of skew. And then, just the outrageous casting, like the most wonderful from Steve Way to Danny McCarthy to, you know, and of course you have to talk about before we even get to Lola. I really want to talk about Quincy Tyler Bernstein, who gave us a character I've never seen before on television.

Yeah. There was a question, I think. But it was really just more about the element of surprise, as having worked on so many shows as a star and a producer, the way that you can make something come alive through the types of decisions that other people might overlook. Yeah, I think, you know, it can be overwhelming if you think that you have to make, like, you're like, we're going to make a great show, you know? But, like, things are made because like-minded people come together that understand the task at hand the exact same way, align, and then make one tiny decision at a time. Yeah.

So Liz and I were casting Nora. we saw a lot of tapes. Quincy was, I think, our favorite, but we tested me with her. It was a slam dunk. We went to see her in the play that she was in that was closing that night. And we were sitting next to each other watching this incredible actress that we knew we were going to get the chance to work with. Watching her basically, she never leaves the stage the entire time. It's an incredible, incredible show that she did that she then reprised after we shot the first season. And we we were sitting there and Danny McCarthy was in the show too. Oh. And Constance Schulman was in the show too. I just cast everybody. And we were sitting there. And Constance Schulman plays Marshall's mother in like two absolutely unforgettable scenes.

And we were sitting there being like, is this just our whole cast? So sometimes things happen where you're so aligned that you're able to put those pieces in. And Liz had always wanted a musical tapestry for the show that felt very unique. And, you know, when we were talking about it. it, I said it should feel very female. So maybe that's a vocal pad or maybe it's a, like, maybe, you know, oh, the music. The music for Ariel's score. So like really kind of, my job as a producer is to fully understand to get as close to Liz as she will let me get, literally get inside her shirt to understand her so that every choice that I'm helping make is advocating for

the vision of the showrunner. and what a joy and as an actor to be able to be that close to your showrunner so that every choice that they're thinking and marinating about is also affecting the way that you're understanding character and the way that you're understanding tone. Honestly, I was really scared because I worked with actors as EPs before

but never one that has been hands on and I was like, oh my God. Like I was like, how is this going to work? I'm scared. And Emmy was just incredible. I think it's also about space, you know, because like you have to fail. And it's like usually... She's like, don't get that close.

Yeah. Please. Don't get inside my shirt. She's got a grenade. Yeah, don't climb into, don't sneak in with a wagon into my brain. But no, I think like I'm used to kind of coming to actors with a mostly finished product. So it's scary to me to like allow an actor into a process where you're kind of like, this isn't right yet. Yeah.

You know? And Emmy was like an incredible. a partner in that way because she understood the process. I mean, the music, Ariel did dying for sex as well, and I loved working with her. And the music was like such a journey. It was the tone of the show, honestly, I had an idea as I was writing it while we were shooting it. And then post, I think it was like a whole other journey because there was a kind of flamboyance to the show or like a sort of, it's not like gritty, gritty, gritty, dark, dark, dark.

And I want it to kind of like, there's a buoyancy. There's a buoyancy. Thank you. That's better. But even in the color palette that like, yeah, color palette that like we worked with. It's not like drab. It's not desaturated.

Like we really wanted it to feel like it wasn't bleak. And so Ariel had this like amazing. There's a kind of jazziness to the music. And then there's underlying female vocals that kind of grow as it goes on. And we we called the female vocal score like the sort of ghosts of the past. You know, like that, you know, and so letting those, those voices get louder and louder over the course of the show, obviously, to kind of, you know, take us from the beginning, which has a more buoyancy and more jazz to the end. But that was surprising the kind of like jazz and like the noir kind of feeling to it. I didn't see when we started and then it kind of.

But this is something that's hard to articulate, but that we try to talk about on the podcast too, which is the best things can only. happen when there's space to discover them. You know, if you went in with like a color palette before you even cast all the parts or before you got on set or met the directors, it's going to hold it captive, right? You discovered this. It's the worst and best part of doing a show because you feel so scared to be like, I don't know. And I do think, like, as a showrunner, it's taken me a long time to be able to say,

I don't know or to say that's a place where I can let other people find it and then go with what their vision is, you know? And I think your job is like to have a vision to communicate it and then to give people the space and the safety to bring their own work to it. And it took me a very long time to figure that out. Yeah. And I'm still figuring it out.

No, you're getting there. I've got to say. We have to talk about Lillopetikru. The last time I think I saw them was in Say Nothing, which is an incredible show that I think was underseen. Even if it was well seen, it was still undersea. I think it's an incredible achievement.

And they're bringing to life a historical figure from very young age to some pretty hard experiences. Yeah. Nothing in that performance gave me the slightest sense other than the power of their ability that they could do this. How did you find Lola and what was the process like to discover Catherine?

I mean, we auditioned a lot of people and amazing actresses came in. And Lola just has this ability to scare the shit out of you and break your heart at the same time. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, and it's, like, I was like, how are we going to cast this part? Emmy's more a more positive person. And I'm always like, we're not going to be able to find it.

We're not able to do it. And like, I just, and then we saw Lola and it was like, they captivated all of us, scared us. and also you feel for Catherine. And that, I was like, to go on an eight-episode journey with a serial killer, I'm like, you can't be, you know, you have to feel. You have to have feelings about this person rooting for them at some level. And then also just genuinely believe that they could kill people. But Liz's writing is so strong that they're, even though Lola was like the slam dunk, obvious winner and the performance is incredible. I would say there were so many people that auditioned that were so.

strong because the strength of the material is such that it's so bold, even for Nora, even for the Danny McCarthy role. I just think that when the scenes are that strong, you're watching these audition tapes and you can't stop watching them. There's no small parts or something like that because there are no small butts allowed. BBL the series. Coming soon from Hulu. I'm 12 years old. This is great. It's what I'm realizing. But just that like, the Danny McCarthy, I keep coming back to him because it's like, that part could have been a zero.

And instead the part is a 10 out of 10. Like, I'm so excited to see him. He's so weird. He's so funny. And with Scoot has his boot on his face. Yeah. That's so great. There's just every thing is an opportunity.

Like you were saying, a small choice can become something quite memorable. There's a larger point to be made. And I'm probably, this is probably the least correct podcast to make it about how, I think you alluded to it. I mean, like how deeply female. the show is and how the perspective at every moment in the show is of a, it's not a secret language, but it is a female language that the female characters understand about what happens when you walk into a room, who they're looking at, what they're looking at, how they are being seen,

and the men are essentially clueless about all of it. Maybe Alden is the one person who understands a little bit of it because of his disability. This is the most cliched, and I'm embarrassed to even ask a question after that preamble, which is, now I want to ask about the fellas. Sure. Let's ask about the bro. Come on. Let's do the dudes. But sincerely, though, this is the show.

This is the language of the show. Right. Jake Lacey and Scoot McNary are in the show as different avatars of masculinity and play different roles in Alice's life. I was curious about the process of casting those parts and then specifically Emmy working with them so intimately with such different emotional language within the large archetype of Alice lives in this world, not necessarily their.

World. Did I get there? Yeah, totally. I think I'd pull a muscle to that one. Sorry. No, I mean, Liz had watched this doc called A Better Man. That is... Everybody should watch it, except it's not available, which is like the, you know... Isn't it on YouTube? I spent 50, it was $50 to rent, and I was like... We should figure out how to get it out there. It'll be my next job. It's an incredible documentary about a couple that is meeting up to talk about their relationship which ended years ago that was very abusive and it's about how they're meeting now how they're both remembering it it's very heartbreaking it's very human and i didn't feel like when you sent that to me it like blew the doors open on my ideas of what violence and relationship really

looks like and i think liz has crafted such an interesting portrait of this relationship between alice and marshall this relationship has lasted 25 years he was at moments an oasis a family, a lover, a coworker, a trusted person to watch your back on the street and then became something that was violent and controlling and manipulative. And you need an actor that can not just play the bad guy. Because when you watch this... It's too easy. Yeah. It's also just not the way it is. And it does a disservice to the women, too. Yes. Yes. To not see. their experience and their confusion and their complicated feelings about those relationships. So you needed an actor that could bring that.

And Jake is just a Class A actor. He is funny. He is vulnerable. He is strong. He's powerful. He's scary. And he's also just like the nicest dad ever. So when you're doing these scenes with him, we just trust fell into each other.

and we had an intimacy coordinator at all times with us. And we really felt that we could build the understanding of this relationship. I would say the whiskey waterboarding scene was definitely the one that we were just both the most stressed about. And we got the time on the stage in days prior to kind of do the blocking and work it out with our director destiny. And Liz was there and the coordinator was there. And, you know, you were both just so open and fearless and taking care of. of each other. Yeah. It's like you're shooting stuff like that and it's like it's tough. You're going to these hard places and you need to kind of take care of each other. And Jake was an amazing partner

in that way. I mean, it was just really important. Everything Emmy said, it was just so important to show that character as a human being. I think it's so easy for people, especially nowadays, to make things black and white to say this is a bad person, this is a good person. And I never wanted the show to allow people to make those kind of calls. And also, people blame women for staying. People don't, or they don't understand why women stay in these relationships. And there's so many reasons why, economic reasons, emotional reasons. And the justice system, again, kind of like, wants people to, like, very clearly say, this person did something wrong. This person is a victim. And these relationships are so complicated. Anyway, so I just, I think, like, Jake had

When I spoke to him before we cast him, he just understood that. You know, he just really understood that. And now I think he's like, can I please play a good guy? But no, I mean, it was he's, I had seen him. And Scoot is like. And Scoot's incredible. Incredible, yeah. He has like a, he's just so real.

I don't know. Like, I feel like he's like, he's just one of those actors that just like sits in it, lives it, you know, and like he has this quiet. there's so much depth there. He's just quiet depth, which is so fun because you don't have to write a lot. It's like his face says so much. He does great face acting, as they say, yeah.

He just got a deep well of empathy, too. And he walked that line between, right, neither of these men are perfect either. Scoot's character, Danny has a difficult time loving Alice with the history that she has. That's not her fault. He can't, he wants to save her. She doesn't want to be saved.

And he is having a difficult time holding her trauma. And I think that that isn't something I've seen before. Yes. The effects, the aftershocks of years ago trauma on a woman's partner. That to me is a fascinating dynamic. And also his character, I sat with a NYPD homicide detective, or former homicide detective. for about an hour named Mike Habert. And just he, he, he, I, you think of a NYPD detective as like, you know, talking a lot or

I don't know, you know, like, Dennis, Dennis Franz. I don't know what about like, yeah, Serfico or something. Yeah, but like, he had this quiet, this quietness and he's, he said, like some of, I took some of the things he said, but like my job is to listen. My job is to let people talk. Or to see the worst things that no one should see. my job. And to kind of like hold that for people. And that, it was such an interesting, amazing conversation because I was like, that character made sense to me then. It was like,

okay, this is a man who like does look at the worst thing and can sort of take it. He can take it. And he sits with it. And you know what I mean? So like it, it was interesting to me that we think of law enforcement as like action packed. I think because of, a lot of TV shows. I mean, again, I understand why things need to be actually back. Yeah, those are great shows. But I do think there's a kind of like, they hold back because they want you to do the talking. They want you to reveal yourself, you know. I thought that was really interesting. We're so bad at ambiguity. I just feel like culturally these days. And so the whiskey waterboarding scene, I mean, there is so much history on screen in that moment and so many crisscrossing wires of wants

and needs and who are we as the audience, who are we rooting for? Like, what do we, you know, And what games are we playing with each other? Yes. And where's the line for that's okay to be a, you can be a victim up to this point. I mean, that's kind of the show's thesis. Yes. How do you guys then, as the creative leads of the show, hold space for that throughout? You know, how do you get the directors who come on, the guest stars to come on, the writers in the writers' room to understand that we are going to, it might be easier to lean one way or the other, but we are going to try to sit in this uncomfortable spot because I think that's really the triumph of the season.

Yeah. I mean, just to go back to the kind of femalness of the show versus the fellas. Okay, guys, we can take five. We're the fella! Sorry. No, say more about that. No, I think what was kind of fun, and this does go into your question, what was fun sort of, and I set out from the beginning with all the designers who were incredible people,

and incredibly talented was just how do we look at like what does female violence look like? And I think that waterboarding scene is an interesting example of you kind of bring him close to you and then you do it. And I think that Catherine does the same thing

that female violence, all the violence in the show is coming from a place of intimacy is coming from a closeness. These aren't characters who are like shooting at each other from far away. It's like if you're going to kill someone, it's going to feel almost like like any kind of violence is going to feel like a sex scene in a lot of ways.

So that was like something that we spoke a lot about and just the idea of like the raw chicken and the curling iron. You know, like these like kind of female like cooking and tool. You know, like that and that was just a fun, that was just a fun kind of like thing to say is our North Star a little bit in those meetings and kind of think about like how do we go about this? in a different way and in a, you know, quote-unquote female way. Yeah, I think that even if you are, if you're lucky enough to be ignorant about some of the realities or lived experiences of trauma or trafficking and things, even understanding or learning to understand that Catherine is using her body, but she is, she's using it as opposed to being used to get closer to people, is at first, you know, it's uncomfortable.

It's surprising and it's jarring. But the show continues to follow that path in a way that at least in my mind felt honest about experiences. Did I answer that question because I feel like I, you mean like how do we get? Do you want to run a pack? No. No. We need take five. Talk more about the fellow.

It was cool to hang out with the guys though, right? Sorry. God, guys, right? They're the best. I mean, pretty cool hangs. Uncomplicated. You guys watched the game last night. No, I think that you did.

I think that because this is, I mean, even talking about you guys were the captain of the ship. And so if this is what interested you, if this is how you wanted to see these familiar things subverted, expressed. Well, it's also interesting because I'm in the season two writers room. And I think, like, our brains are so wired for female victimhood as a way of creating stakes in situations. And so where can I put this empathy? Oh, I'll put it with her. Yes. Yes.

And so I think it was like I had to always check myself throughout of like, you know, are we, like, I don't ever want to feel too sorry for somebody. You know, I want to kind of like keep all the characters tough and sort of spiky. And like, I don't want sympathy. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want the characters to be like people to feel sorry for them. So that was like, I did feel like I had to check myself and I am checking myself a lot in the writer's room of like that speech that Nora gives in the first episode about everyone loves it when there's a little naked, not, I don't know, naked, but dead. Dead girls cut in pieces.

Yeah. Why did I put naked in there? I don't know. She's usually naked too. I got to think about that. Yeah. Yeah, but in that finale, Ed's like, it was just one dead girl. Yeah.

It's the inversion of that same thing. Yeah, I love that moment. Takes my breath away. I didn't. And she was probably going to die anyway. I had cut the part about peeing on him because I was like, this is insane. I can't put this on the show. And then I told.

Rainier. It's raining death. You need an umbrella. And I told Corey Finley, who directed the finale, did such an incredible job. But I was like, we were laughing. I was like, oh, you know, I'd actually put this thing about, like, him peeing on him in there. And he was like, put it back in. He's like, what are you doing?

And I was like, another North Star was kind of like, we never want to be exploitative of female pain and trauma for story purposes. Like, it's like, and it's so easy to kind of fall into that trap, I think, because it's so, it's a part of our storytelling language. It feels familiar. Yeah. As an audience, I'm sure, as people noting it, I'm sure even in a room. you could be like, well, at least that's taken care of before the other 100 problems pop up. Oh, you feel sorry for her. Okay, great. We got a feeling. Yeah, yeah. We got a feeling. We got a feeling. Yeah. Feelings check. Let's go back to being fellas. Come on. Hey, guys. I'm sorry. Why am I attacking you? You're like really nice to have me on. No, no, I deserve it. It's fine. It's good for me. Am I furious?

I can't tell. All these women are mad at me. Oh, my God. Okay, so, Emmy, I'm going to ask you this because I think Liz has a complicated relationship to this. question, but what are you excited about for a season two of this show? And if you'd like to take notes, Liz, that's fine, too. No, I've texted Liz so many pitches, some of which gets thumbs up and some of which gets no response, and I can take a hit. Some get left on red? Yeah. I think she has her deliverer messages off, so I'll never know. That's good. I'm like Christopher Nolan. Someone has to print it out for me. Fellows, did you get my emails? She's adologue. I'm excited for what Alice does with this big secret. Yeah.

Right? Some of her secrets have been exposed. And now, spoiler alert, she's killed someone. Yep. And I think the way

that Liz set that up in that last episode with the misdirect and how it's revealed in the last seconds, it's so powerful. It's so well done. It's so fun.

It's the best kind of misdirect where it makes sense and you kind of knew but you weren't sure. You're like, oh, that's kind of like, I guess he just died, I guess he did die

peacefully in his bed. Okay, well, I guess they made that choice. I guess they made that choice. Feelings uncheck. Okay. But Alice is really good at burying things and really good at keeping secrets. So I'm really interested to see how that affects her.

I'm interested to see kind of, you know, what happens with Danny now that he has been, you know, taken. He's decided to step back. He doesn't want to look at things anymore. And her eyes are wide open. And Nora's like, you got to look. I'm also obsessed with the interpersonal dynamic. between Choi and Nora and Yara with the baby and Al. I am really...

She had a baby. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. Got a lot of bored with a head of hair. I have a whole head of hair, though. Oh, I love really. I'm so funny. He is so funny.

And I am excited to, I'm just excited really for whatever Liz can cook up and any of my text messages that they get thumbs up acknowledgments. You'll feel good about that. If left to my own devices, it'll just be like an office comedy in the basement. Great. With her all. But when he kneels down also, when Nora is hiding. That's my favorite.

And she doesn't even have a shoelace. Did you not want me to? Did you not want me to? Are we down here doing this? He's willing to do anything. This just makes me so happy. Yeah. I mean, I'm so happy that we're doing another season.

I want to say that. Can I get another read on that line? One with tears. I'm so happy. Here go. I'm happy. You're in this camera. Thank you.

for your consideration, Liz Meriwether. Obviously, we're so lucky to get another season. It's just, it's hard. I've been doing limited, I did, you know, two limited series before this. And I remember the experience of New Girl. I remember the kind of like excitement of the first season. And then you're like, you're like, okay, we've got to keep doing it. And it's, you know, it's just like there's, I just never want to like let people down.

And it's just kind of like trying to. But I think whenever I go to my deepest, darkest, most anxious places, I come back thinking about the characters because I love these characters. I love Alice. I love Nora. I love Danny. I love the whole world of it. And so I just get excited to be like, well, what are they up to? Like, what are those crazy cats up to?

And kind of like that calms me down when I get really nervous. But I think that's what's so special about Liz's work is because it always starts from character. interest in psychology, interest in dynamics. It never starts from, here's a cool thing that could happen, right? Plot comes from character, character's choices, and that's why I think it feels so able to, you're able to understand all the choices people make. You're never like, oh, well, that person would never do that because it's built from that. And that's why I think Liz's work is really hitting and appealing to the actors, too,

and why we feel like we can go so deep within it. Yeah, I think that also it's just you've done both now and you, you know, the first season is what it is and you can't, I think it's almost like fool's goal to try to chase. There's another case that Alice is also a victim in and hunting and it's all, you know, you've done that. And so now what is next for it, right? Like it becomes a different show. And maybe that's a good thing. I had an interviewer last night because we did an event. Yeah.

And he was like, I really felt like he was the voice in my head. Like he was like, you must feel a lot of pressure. No, he did not. I was like, please stop talking, sir. That's fun. Yeah. No, I mean, I don't, I, you know, fortunately and unfortunately, there are a lot of areas we can go into about, you know, sex crimes trafficking. Yeah.

Violence against women. So, you know, that's another thing that kind of keeps me going is that there's so many stories that need to be told. And yeah, I don't know. Tune in. Do people still say that? Because it's like on the computer now? Yeah, they say it. Okay.

You're not like adjusting your TV antenna? Maybe someone is. I think that's okay. I just love it. You're the new Dick Wolf. You're just the king in New York crime shows. I really, I do. I said this to you before the podcast,

but I was like, there were definitely moments where I'm like, how did I get myself in a situation where I'm writing multiple seasons of a crime show? Like I just, like as I said, I would be so. happy to write the office comedy version of this show. It's just like Nora running upstairs. You're going to have to send more texts. I think. I know. I think I actually need more text from you. Okay. I'm happy to. Guys, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to see you both again and talk to you. And really, the show is an incredible achievement. And thanks for sharing it with us. Thank you. Thank you so much. Come back for season two. I can't wait to see how excited you're going to be great. I'm excited.

There's going to be lots of snacks jokes. I know that. Just cheesebobs. Yeah, lots of snacks jokes. Lots of Doritos jokes. When in doubt, let's throw some eating into a scene. We always do, and that'll be great. Yeah, and maybe some fellas. I don't know. Maybe some fellas. Hey.

Let's get the fellas in there. I don't want to lean too hard on that, but I do think there's some opportunity there. We can do some more fellas and some more snacks. Like, what are these ladies so furious about? Huh? That guy. That guy's going to kill. Just light pitch that character now.

We cut five minutes ago, right? Thanks.