The Watch - Golden Globe Noms, Back Into the Sheridanverse, and ‘The Agency’

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about some of the major takeaways from the Golden Globe nominations that were announced today, including ‘Squid Game’ Season 2 getting nominated for Best Drama despite not being released yet (1:00). Then they talk about the latest episodes from the three big Taylor Sheridan shows airing on Sunday nights right now—‘Yellowstone’ (28:02), ‘Lioness’ (40:04), and ‘Landman’ (48:56)—and Sheridan himself making a cameo on two of those shows. Finally, they cover the latest episode of ‘The Agency’ and discuss whether there has been a drop-off in quality between the second and third episodes (1:03:21). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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he just mowed a widow's lawn. It's Andy Greenwald. Yeah, front and back, baby. Hey, can I get a redesign out of the run video? What do you want to do? How could you change perfection here, you know? Listen, first of all, it's great to see you. Yeah.

What's great also is that everyone can see you. Because people have known for years now that you are a layer king. I am. It's also that's a perfect time for it. But what they don't know is that now you are layering shades, not just jackets. I functionally usually work with blue and gray. I think that that's great for you. You are a symphony and ocean today. You look amazing. I love it.

We are here with Kaya. We are on the new Ringer TV YouTube channel. Kyna looks nice too. I noticed she's not on camera. But, okay. Not in my contract. Not in mine. But hey.

So thank you for watching us if you are. If you're listening to us, hello. And we're just going to do the normal show today. I see nothing normal about this show. Well, it's Golden Globes Monday. So, I mean, I think we can start there, Andy. I think I don't care about the Golden Globes and don't understand who votes for them and how shows get picked. But I do look at it as a bellwether for what seems to be.

become the quote unquote best of the year. Now, there are so many Golden Globes categories for movies and TV that it gets a little participation trophy-ish after a while because it's like between the limited series comedy and drama. It's like almost every notable performance and notable show gets a nod. But I thought it would be useful for us to go through this stuff now that you're back on the free shores of America. Which I'd like to touch on later. I'm not sure if I am back. Okay. I'm not genuinely feel a little Atlantic, not transatlantic right now. I feel like when you arrive back from England and he was just in England and he got back Saturday. Yeah.

You start real cocky. You're like, I feel great. Chris, I crushed it last week. I was just in the pocket. I was like, this is my, you know, fourth, fifth time there this year. Like, I get it. I know how to do it? You know what the sign of success was on this trip?

Not just the wonderful things. Have you picked a football club to support you? That are, uh, no. Okay. I just tell people I like Liverpool. Everyone's like, nice. It's fine. I feel like that's okay, right?

Oh, wow. It's like my buddy wears a Knicks hat and doesn't watch basketball and walks around New York being like, how about those guys? And they're like, I know, right? It's great. No, I feel like my sign of success outside of the wonderful work experience that I'm having is a little bit bored even. You know what I mean?

Like that's a sign of like, I'm not, not, not pushing it too. I'm drinking just enough. It's great. And then the one wobble was that I got. Zahithro on Saturday. I was like, man, I'm just, I crushed this trip. I'm totally like I'm in the pocket. I slept, feel good. I feel like I contributed a lot.

And then I noticed that all the TVs were all on the same channel. It was just like very concerned-looking news ladies talking about a furious windstorm named Derek. They called off the Liverpool match. Your beloved Liverpool did not play this weekend. Believe me, I know. And all of the news headlines just said, don't go outside. And I also want to say, like, I know that it's now an international thing to name Storms. I didn't know it was, I didn't know that it was a UK thing.

It's pretty sick that they give Storm's kick-ass Celtic names like Derek, D-A-R-R-A-C-H. It sounds like a vengeful Viking god. And they were saying, don't go outside. Did your plane rock at all in the... Hell yeah, brother. We were fucking getting after it. We were rocking, we were rolling. And I guess the reason why I was actually nervous this time

was the fact that in my recent trips to the UK, I've learned, they have a very different attitude about risk and being unwell than we do. Yeah, well, you also might have a much lower risk tolerance. 100% normal. I do think I told the story, right, where someone at my place of work was like, I've got a bit of a headache. Does anyone have a paracetamol? and someone was like, oh, paracetamol, oh, I'm not sure, let me look.

And they dug around their bags and looked in the office medical kid. And they had like one blister pack with one, not even extra strength Tylenol. Dr. Doug Ross opened up the kid. I was like, what flavor do you want? These are peanut butter, but they're also ibuprofen. They're also opiates. The look that people gave me, not only when I had headache medicine, but someone spilled something, and I was like, I've got a tide stick.

Like, why do you carry that in your satchel? I have children and also they sell this stuff at 7-Elevens. I have everything. Anyway, my point being when I was like, yeah, I got a COVID vaccine. They're like, are you still doing that over there? Do you have a condition? So the fact that you have a pre-existing respiratory. Literally, they're like, are you over the age of 70? The fact that that's their normal attitude and then for a rain and windstorm, the news was don't go outside.

Yeah, duck and cover, right? So anyway, maybe that's having a lingering effect on me. So if I'm not at my best today, blame Derek. That part, you nailed. Okay. When we get into television and when we talk about the works of Taylor Sheridan, which we're going to do a bit of today, and we're also going to talk about the agency on Paramount Plus slash showtime on Paramount.

Big Paramount Day for us. We're the Paramount Posse. Is it catching up with the cock? I don't know. But it's neck and neck. Did you just ask me if the posse is catching up with the cock? No, because Peacock gets... We're getting this on video, right?

Peacock gets like pride of place in this podcast because of Kaya and because of her support. Just because of her tireless support for Comcast and for its reality programming. Right. We support Peacock. I heard they were thinking about unloading Bravo until Kaya stepped up. Like the Norman Rockwell painting. Just one brave soul. She did a one woman march on Washington.

Yeah. No, in Philadelphia. I honestly do think that if Bravo was ever threatened, we would see numbers in the streets as if Like, we could never imagine. Do you think that's what's finally going to do it? Yeah. That's going to be the new resistance. If Donald Trump is like the blow dick, it costs too much.

I didn't TikTok being banned. Yeah, right. That's what it's going to mobilize the people. Whatever it takes. Andy, well, let's talk a little bit about the Golden Globes before we get into this. Now, I'll just run through the big TV categories, which are the show's. Best Television Series drama, The Day of the Jackal, a show we both enjoy quite a bit. Do we?

You do. Would you watch one? I watched too. I just wanted to just keep it real. Okay, you want to a little separation between you and me. Also, I feel like we've been gassing up Peacock in the last 45 seconds. I enjoyed the day of the jackal. Chris did. The diplomat, I

criminally have not watched season two. No, we should. Mr. Mrs. Smith. Yeah, that's my show. You're a little more like up on that than I am. Big up on that. Shogun, we equally love. Okay, I like that we're now going to just divvy up custody of each one of these nominated programs. I think we both obviously adore

maybe this season was not our favorite, but We still love the show. And then the surprise, perhaps, on the television side of the entire slate. Here we go. Is the nomination of Squid Game Season 2 several weeks before it's out in the public. And to my knowledge, before a single soul has seen it. Well, obviously, the Hollywood foreign press or whatever has seen it, or the reconstituted Hollywood and foreign press or whatever this post-scandal Golden Globes thing is.

But I don't remember this happening personally. Yeah, for the record, the Hollywood Reporter story notes that the Hollywood Foreign Press Association no longer selects the nominees or winners. Instead, it is selected by a racially and ethnically diverse group of voters, who I believe also selected Donald Trump recently. So it's pretty ambiguous what their taste in politics are. But congratulations to groups of voters. Anyway. In any case. They were given access.

Were they? Well, oh, you think they just nominated it because they got excited? I'm just saying, is that an impossibility? I think they did it because they were standing up in support of South Korean democracy. All right. Chris. I can see you've come back. The best thing is, I'm going to remember none of this podcast.

Thank God it's being filmed. When you start talking about Linus, I'm going to put on a bulletproof vest. Did Paramount send you one as a thank you gift for your years of support? We don't know. What if Paramount sent me a full-grown horse for my support of Taylor Sheridan? And then Taylor Sheridan shows up shirtless. to teach you how to ride it? See, this is great because now the cameras are on you

so they can see that you're smiling. Because I think for a moment it passed in front of your eyes. Like, that would be a pretty cool Saturday. It would be amazing. I don't have kids. I'd love to go horseback riding with Taylor Sherrod. Well, you'd have to do the full Putin, though. You'd have to have your shirt off.

We don't know who these voters are, but we can assume that Netflix made the season or some of it available to them. I would say that going by, I mean, it's hard to wrap your arms around this enormous list of nominees and make any sort of sense of it, other than the fact that Netflix took this very seriously, is my main takeaway. And you can, that's evidenced by Amelia Perez, the Netflix film that won at Can, getting, I believe, more nominations than any film since Nashville or something.

I don't think you, I mean, yes, that's true or something like that, but I don't know necessarily that the Golden Globes let you in that way are a harbinger of what's going to happen with the Oscars. No, I don't think so either. I'm saying that Netflix, and I'm not saying that there was any sort of bribery or literal horse trading, which is what you're asking for from David Ellison and the new regime over at Paramount. But I am saying that these awards, all awards shows, can be influenced by how seriously the studios or streamers take them and engage with them and get their product in front of the voters. And I think that Netflix getting the most nominations for a movie that so far doesn't have a ton of state-side traction, I would say.

It doesn't mean it's not good. It's not good. It was obviously, did very well it can and it is a much talked about film. It might be good. I'm not sure what its Netflix numbers are or if it's been in the top 10. But that is, I guess the point I was going to make about Squid Game not being seen and for the most part

and not being even buzzed about because I don't know anyone who has seen it. I think I probably would at this point. No big deal, but I would know if someone was like, I have Squid Game screeners, I think I would know. The Golden Gloves historically is a place not only for this kind of like strange celebration of every single possible microgenre of Hollywood,

but it's also a platform where people launch new stuff and promote upcoming projects. So the Squid Game thing, while sure, maybe five people saw the entire series and was like, God damn it, they did it again. I'm surprised. I'm not surprised by its inclusion as a piece of promotional material. And it is a globally, like huge, huge phenomenon. So. Yeah, I also think that Netflix is a very, very smart company in terms of many in many categories, but one of them is marketing. And a few years ago when we talked about Netflix, one of our talking points was how they had kind of broken the calendar and seemed separate from the awards churn and found more value in dropping shows on holiday weekends or in, you know, what had traditionally been. Exactly. And what had traditionally been kind of like blackout spots, but realizing that's actually when people are home watching things.

It seems like they have now found a way to continue to do that, but also marry it to the more traditional promotional awards calendar because it's not, again, it's not just Amelia Perez getting into this. It's not just Squid Game getting in before anyone that we know has seen it. Cure Knightley is nominated for Black Doves, a show that we both love and has been out. And she 100% deserves it, but that show premiered eight days ago. So what I'm saying is they are playing the long game here. Yeah.

Do you think just quickly ask you about your holiday viewing plans, you know, You don't observe Christmas per se. I observe it from a distance, although I have Christmas thoughts after being in England around this time of year. Have you thought about how you will spend your Christmas day at what film? Will it be Lord of the Rings War of the Roherom?

That just flowed. You just said that so smoothly. The Roherom, are they the horse ladies or now? The horse lords of Rohan. Yeah. Lords or Lordesses? I think it's a mixed group. Yeah.

Listen, you and I both know that one of the strongest factions of fandom of the Lord of the Rings films are the women who like the horse women. Like that's just, people would talk, this isn't a bit. I know. People love those characters.

And so I, I would like it to stay true. Your choices are that the brutalist or staying home and binging squid game. Also, there's an NFL football game. Oh, and a complete unknown. And an NFL football game. So, what's my choice?

Well, I haven't seen Enora yet. And that's my number one movie I want to see. And then probably, then the brutalist, I really want to say. And then there's that director's cut of twisters where they might kiss, Don't time. Best TV series.

Wait, what do you think I should see on Christmas? A complete unknown. I'm pretty dug in to my take. What's your take? Eh. All right. I don't know to tell you. If you're not open to it, you're not open to it.

Did you see that kid on Game Day? Did you see Salome? No. Oh my God, dude. Do you know anything about this? Do you know about this? I'm so offline. I know nothing these days.

Bro. Salomey went on Game Day, on college game day in Atlanta for the Texas, Georgia game. Kai, you saw this. Of course. Well, Kaya was watching College Game Day anyway. Yeah. And it was just like, oh.

As I do on a Saturday. You know, and the guest picker. It's like they have like six guys on a panel, but then they'll have a guest come and help them pick the games. Truly college football is a blind spot. I don't know any of this. A bunch of guys, it's like McAfee, Nick Sabin, Desmond Howard, whoever.

And they're all up on stage. And then they pick games. Kirk Herb Streets on there, I think. Like who they think's going to win the end. Yes. And these were crucial games. They were a conference championship games. Salomey went to the first.

same high school, everybody's doubting this kid. But what they don't know that I know is that dude loves Bill Simmons. So you, and Woge and like, like is a sports head. Like he follows Bill or do we know deeper, does it go deeper that? He follows Bill on Twitter.

He only follows like 40 some people in Twitter and Bill and Zach Lowe or two of them. He's just like me. No, so he gets up on so he's got this weird pencil mustache because he's in some Safty Brothers movie about a ping pong player from the 50s. And it's like, what's this guy going to do?

Is he going to be like, oh, I like green. So I'm going with Marshall. You know, like I think that, you know, Bertolucci once said you can only do what you can do in front of you. And that's why I'm picking, you know, Clemson. No. This kid went straight ball knower.

And it is. And he picked every game. I think he went 6 and 0, including, except for, or 6 and 1, because he picked Texas over Georgia. But he blacked out and was just like, I love SMU. Kevin Jennings. There's going to be the next Heisman winner.

What? Yeah, it's the 80s again. The Pony Express is back. So this is the long tale of this argument is I should see his Bob Dylan impression because he likes college football. Because he's the man. He's doing good. And he's quite good in this film. I'll say that.

I, man. One of the great regrets of my life is that the time I spent with young Timothy Shalomey was one of the least memorable actor. When did you spend time with him to be challenged? 2012, Chris. I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina, home of the Panthers, a scrappy NFL franchise. They may have broken us.

I know. And I was on the set of, speaking of Paramount, I was on the set of a Showtime program called Homeland. Oh, yeah, that's right. And he was Dana's boyfriend. He was the vice president's son. And I was hanging out with him and his mom who was on set because he was underage.

And he was very shy. and at no point was I like Liza Nal Gaiib of college game day And was he just wearing a Jeremy Lynn jersey And like He was just reading Jason Concepcion tweets

Let me tell you this I don't know if you have stories like this in your life But I have tried to make a number of different runs At this anecdote And to share it And to make it like to kind of like to judge it up Into something worth sharing Yeah

It's inert There's absolutely nothing to this Well he was like 14 or 15 Yeah but you know Sometimes 14 year olds have it Have the spark? I guess, but then they can lose that spark. They can lose that spark.

No, I broke towards high school is what it started to emerge. The spark? Yeah. Do you have... Late high school? I don't want to put you on the spot with this, but like, do you have any celebrity interactions that are so colossally boring that you can't actually use them in conversation?

I think I just told one recently. My Paul Mescal one where, like, another man was talking to me about going to see a chiropractor, and Paul Mescoe was just like, I'm, please let me get out of this, like, elevator. I was like, that was it. He looked hot. Yeah. Well, but also, but like that one,

he was already Paul Meskell. Yeah, he was like in town promoting Gladiator. Right. So, but he didn't care about me. That's cool. I guess that was like, I still care about him.

Because usually, one of the highlights of the London to LAX flight that I have now done five times this calendar here that adds up to a number of full days is that you get like, Andrew Scott watching the in-flight entertainment system or what's his name?

Rufus Sewell chatting with people at the bar. But then this time, I sent you a picture. There was like 100% like a, this guy was just like letting everyone know that he was a tussled and sexy British actor. And I had no idea. Neither did I when you sent it to me. I took a sort of.

It honestly looked like Josh Allen if Josh Allen went to Zara. I don't know. Say more about this. Okay. Anyway, all right. I am curious. I don't really have a lot of other observations for you.

This is just a note that the great Emmy debate overseen by Hannah Eimbeider's mom of whether or not Bear is a comedy, we will rerun that with the Best Television series. Yeah, do you want to... Musical comedy. Name them. Abid Elementary, the Bear, the Gentleman. Yeah. Love that. Good show.

Hacks. Nobody wants this. And only murders in the building. Now you could split the difference and just give it to Only Murders, which is a beloved TV show by people over 50. or maybe nobody wants this, a late-breaking Netflix property this year, I think post-emmys, you know? I could see that winning it,

especially good, again, because of Netflix's clout. And... What about the limited series? The limited series is interesting because there's at least one show on here that I did not know was limited. Yeah, and I think it might change its mind. Baby reindeer on Netflix,

disclaimer on Apple. Monsters the Lyle and Eric Menendez story, which I actually think is going to win. That's the one you think is going to be ongoing, right? It's going to be George Gascon. That dude's out. Have you really not read a paper? I know he lost, but he was like, as my last act, I will free these boys.

He was doing that to get elected. He was just like, oh, is something trending? Let me get in front of that. Yeah, but the new guy coming in was like, I'll think about it. Yeah, I'll think about it. Yeah, he's like, I'm elected. So I don't have to worry about getting reelected just the second. For what it's worth, my kids know that when I say, I'll think about it.

It's a yes. They celebrate when I say, I'll think about it. That's a good question. How do you hedge your bets but lean no? You have to say no. I'm learning this. If I say maybe you're thinking about maybe next time. Do they go for that?

It's a tougher. Dad, dad, dad, dad. Can we watch Landman? And you're like, maybe next time. It's a tougher one, but I can get that one through. Okay. Yeah. I have the votes to get that one through.

The one that's confusing here is the penguin. We follow it up with our beloved Ripley and true detective night country. Which is continuing. as a different... I mean, they are making another one, but it won't be night after. Another true detective. Yes.

You know what? Steve's alien? Keep making Patricia Hy-Smith novels. Let's use our Netflix cloud to have that conversation because that does not seem to be happening. But the penguin, to me, giant hit.

Yeah. Maybe Colin Farrell doesn't want to put that shit on, but like, maybe could like the penguin go through massive cosmetic surgery and just look like Colin Farrell so it's easier for him to shoot the show? That would be so smart. Canonically, does that work?

with the character? Well... Or does he just get more and more penguin-like? I think Matt Reeves is doing something very different. You know, very groundbreaking. I want to step on his web toes on this subject.

Okay. No, the way to do it would be to double cast. Like, have Colin Farrell show up as... Like the hot DA? Yeah, or no, or like Oz's cousin.

Yeah. Cause. Who's just like Irish and very good looking. And then he could do a bunch scenes that way. I didn't know that that was a limited series. Unless you're calling it an anthology series within the greater Gotham story, I don't really know.

I am surprised. This seems a little bit like gamesmanship, because they have not decided. I think they would very much like to run it back. I think that it is a longer conversation for a number of reasons, one of which is they are making the sequel to the film, which will pick up some elements of the story, presumably. You see, there's some rumors that that is a delayed entomical. production. Well, I'd like to answer that in two ways. One, that doesn't surprise me. And two, it's very interesting doing a culture podcast while not learning any news. Yeah. Well, that's because

I'm learning in real time. I think that's being worked out. I would say that we have many examples. I think White Lotus did this recently of a show winning or being nominated and eliminated before category jumping for a second season or third season. That could happen. Wait, did it jump? I thought it was considered an anthology because no character. characters except for Coolidge recur. All right, White Lotus didn't category jump. What's the one the category jumped? Showup.

Yes, but I'm saying one that had one or run in a category. I thought it was White Lotus, but I'm clearly mixing it up with something else. But the reason I say it is that usually the category jumping ahead of time is gamesmanship. And I actually, if you look at the best television series nominees, as you listed for HBO, sorry, for this year for the Golden Globes, HBO has none, which is very, very noteworthy. And the penguin likely could have taken one of those slots.

So I'm surprised that it didn't do it, if only for the chance to win, even if they didn't actually green light a second season for one year to 18 months to two years from now. Is there any of the performance nominations that you want to talk about? To me, it's like this is basically everybody who was on TV. I would also note, though,

just on that HBO point that like, House of the Dragon, I believe, won this award as drama series and is not nominated. Emma Darcy is nominated. Emma Darcy is. That is strange. I mean, it's telling, I think. I like the second season more, though, the first season. I think you are in a minority.

I think it was better. I totally agree with you. But that's just temperature taken out there. I mean, I think it ended on a bad note, I think because it felt curtailed. And that lingered. And it had its, my favorite episodes of the series were in that season. You know what's good about this new iteration of our podcast is that like you're actually like the data guy and I'm the old fashioned shoe leather just like Tom Friedman and a cab reporting.

I'm like, I think people didn't like it as much. And you're like, show me the numbers. Like, I don't need to. I talk to a cab driver. I talked to a cab driver in Mumbai. Yeah, I mean, it is a weird also. Golden Globes also just followed a weird time of year where you have the leftover nominees from the Emmys, not leftover,

but people who had already, this has already been litigated in the Emmys where it's like Maya Erskine and Donald Glover from Mr. Mrs. Smith, Anna Soai, who won the Emmy in this category and Kirouki Sonata, and then you have the shows that have debuted since.

So you have Jake Gyllenhaal from presumed innocent, Billy Bob Thornton, we're going to be talking about him in a minute. Yeah, I mean, most people seem to have been nominated this year, and I like many of these performers, and I liked a lot of these shows.

I don't have a very strong opinion. I think there was a big showing by the Disney ABC Hulu Corporation across the board. They got a lot of nominations, including ones you wouldn't necessarily expect, like Catherine Hahn for Agatha along. But Ted Danson sneaking in there for your show, A Man on the Inside. I'm just going to blow by that. I know you are. All right, let's wrap it up there then.

I mean, Sean is going to be covering all the movie stuff, and I think has a very, very close eye on the globes as a directional for where the awards race is going. And for the Oscars, it seems like it's so wide open and the debate is already so hot as to whether or not like Wicked should get this sort of anointing just because of its late season success. And the joy it's brought many, many people. You haven't seen Wicked. No. I thought I was in the barrel for that that my children saw it without me.

So you can take them into a complete unknown then? There's a couple of those. Exactly. A couple of those they've seen without me. Wild Robot was another one. Got some Noms. Have not seen Moana 2 yet. I know you were curious.

What is like the number one movie that you have not seen that you're like, I can't wait to see it? I'm so psyched to see Anora. And by the way, I saw that someone in Anora, of whom I have no opinion yet because I've not seen Anora

was cast in Mr. Mrs. Smith's season two. Oh, really? Is it a guy? The younger fellow. Yeah. He's going to be the male lead. You're right. Okay.

And Mr. and Mrs. Smith, too. Really? Yes. And who else is in that show? That's all that's been announced. Just that guy. Yeah. Damn, you got news too.

Well, again, that's just, I heard that from a cab driver. Just to put a button on it, I look forward to Sean's conversation about this. On the big picture. On the big picture, because I think the Golden Globes, these nominations coming when they do have a lot more to say about the state of film industry and the Oscar race than they do about the television industry, which feels like it's still just a little bit like windstorm Derek right now in terms of what's up, what's down, what's flying across the pitch at Anfield? Is that where our team plays, our boys? But they're, they didn't play because of the wind. I wanted just, I was testing you. You got that right. They didn't play

against it. They're apparently about to re-sign their trio of soon-to-be free agent superstars. Mosella? Yeah. I sent you a clip from my Uber driver the other night. It was so funny to listen to listen to WIP of London. Talk sport, yeah. I knew what it was. You knew instantly what it was. It was so civilized. It can get pretty racy on there.

Well, the tenor was different than Joe from Bortendale calling in to talk about why Jalen Hertz is deficient. And by Joe from Bortendale, I mean, you and Zah. Oh, you're getting back on Team Jalen here? I'm always more Team Jalen than you guys.

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Let's talk about Taylor. So last night, you're really all day yesterday. In fact, Mallory and I had this funny thing going on Saturday where there was some really good college football between Georgia and Texas and Oregon and Penn State. And I was like, what time can we watch Landman? I was texting with her. And those shows, I think, go up on Saturday evening, or at least Landman does. But all day, Sunday, you can watch them.

I like to think of someone sitting down, though, and from 8 to 11. just banging out the trio. Because they're all Sunday night shows. Lioness, Yellowstone, and Landman. In two of these shows, I have to report to you. The Lioness season finale and the penultimate episode of Yellowstone. Now, I have been doing some reading about these things, so I'm not completely in the dark,

but I do want your perspective, and we're going to need Kyah in here as well. Well, Taylor Sheridan has cast himself in both these series. Yes, he has. It's largely as a supporting player bit part, almost kind of comic casting, where it's like, oh, it's Chandleran, that's really funny. You think? Okay.

Yeah. So in Linus, he plays a Delta. I saw this, remember? I did watch the season premiere. Yeah, and he's like got some banter with Joe. Super yoked. He's yoked to the fucking Max, man. Like, he's so, he is creatined up.

Yeah. Or it's just pure dumbbells and it's old-fashioned drinking milk and eating four. Sixes steaks. Speaking of dumbbells, this is liver king 2.0, buddy. I just don't want to offend him if he wants to come on. I want him to come on. I have told Kat and Allison are bookers.

They are so nice and they're so good at what they do. And they're just like, is there anybody you've always wanted to have on the pot? Instantaneously, Taylor Sheridan is the way whale. I want to talk to Taylor Sheridan. I was like, I don't care about who we voted for. I just want to fucking talk about Mayor of Kingstown Season 1, episode 3.

You want to talk about? I'll talk about all of it. I've seen all of it. So last night, on two of these three shows, both of which were crucial, the last episode of the season of Lioness, the second last episode of Yellowstone ever, I would describe the main character of both of those shows, those episodes, as Taylor Sheridan, the actor.

Yes. Taylor Sheridan started as an actor. Yeah. He's a frustrated actor, I believe, which led him to... And has done this remarkable job, I think, writing these parts and writing these pages of dialogue and these action scenes for other actors where clearly, whatever you could say about paychecks,

people want to do these shows, right? Like the level of talent he's getting involved in these things is pretty mind-blowing. Sometimes we're just like, damn, Nicole Kittman really just wanted to walk back and forth between these offices and say, Joe, you know it's at stake. You know, but obviously there's something to the role.

And I do want to, I want to let you continue, but I don't want to gloss over this. That, like, there is some element of negotiation here that I am, there's a piece of the story we don't have. You think that he's giving them like equity in his ranch or something. No, I think that what he did was like have a conversation with Demi Moore and he was like, do you want to be in my television show Landman? And she was like, no thank you.

And he was like, what do you want to do? She's like, well, I'm going to be swimming today from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. And he was like, can I bring a camera crew? And then she gets third billing on the show. Well, what else are you to do? I was going to make a smoothie. Can I film you making a smoothie? Is it right?

John Ham's also there and he's talking on the phone. Yeah, John Ham was like, I'll come do it too, but I've got six days and I only want to be in the same room as Demi Moore. Right. They make it work.

Yeah. Which is, you know, what film crews have been doing since time immemorial and I respect it. If you read the Vulture article about Barry Jenkins making Mufasa, we're about to go in some exciting places. So, if the Mufasa technology

can merge with Taylor Sheridan, who knows who he can cast. Clark Gable is going to be in the fucking lioness season three. This is so incredible. Can you imagine? Because people should read this article because it is both fascinating. The Matt Zollar Sites article about Barry Jenkins. Yes.

It is both fascinating and a little bit chilling in the sense of just like how we've really let this shit out of the barn now in terms of like completely speculative. It's Barry Jenkins and the people who made the Steel Street could talk on a blank soundstage with tape on the ground wearing VR headsets. playing around in a grasslands and trying to make a fully digital film. And I am going to be there for it, both because my children want to see this movie and because I really love, respect,

and admire Barry Jenkins. And I am interested when artists engage with what's happening in the world and not run from it. You know what? Barry Jenkins knows. What? He knows ball. He is also a huge college football fan.

He's a ball knower. And he knows so much about Florida high school football. Barry Jenkins should make a movie about a young, brilliant offensive coordinator making his way up through the ranks of college football with Tim Chalemay. But he's a lion.

No, it doesn't have to be a lion. I just mean he should make the Rhett Lashley story. Why are you giving this away for free? Because I want it. I don't look at art as proprietary, you know? I think it should all go into the public domain. That sounds like spoken about a guy with equity. Just giving it away.

I think you're a mocker in this town. You could make this stuff happen. It's just free game. Barry Jenkins is looking for something new to do. I just think... I think he is. Get Timothy Shalomey the cheesecake factory menu and put a headset on him

and have him dialing up air raid offense concepts. Barry Jenkins has been on this podcast. We could reach him. Timothy Shalameh, as noted previously, follows Bill Simmons on Twitter. We could basically have this in pre-pro in six weeks. All I was going to say, though,

was this idea, I don't want to leave it alone. The idea of Taylor Sheridan having access to the movie. If this OC could talk, you know? Oh, the OC. Built in fan base. That's right. But this time, he's coordinating. If Taylor Sheridan had access to the Mufasa technology,

because in this article, Barry Jenkins, like, has the goggles on and he, like, falls in love with a little, like, Warren under a waterfall that people designed but didn't plan to set anything there. Yeah, it's like playing Grand Theft Auto. But if Taylor did that and he's just like, where's Taylor? And he's just like he's in the virtual headspace in the coffee place or the women wear bikinis. And he's just living there. So to finish the statement, Linus, it's the season finale.

Yellowstone, it's the Peloton episode. Yes. These episodes hinge on Taylor Sheridan's characters. In Yellowstone, he plays a rancher in Texas who takes over like the auctioning of the Yellowstone ranch of of Dutton Ranch. Because we're getting rid of it, right? Like, we've moved on. And in Lioness,

he single-handedly fends off an Iranian, like, Republican Guard battalion to save the QRF, the Joe's little team who are doing something quite illegal in Iran. So it is mind-blowing to watch this happen

where, like, this dude, and at the end of the episodes, people are like, man, I want to be you and I want to fuck you. You are the best. And he's just like, hey, I'm just doing my job and writing show. Now, that I do that in.

People may think that I'm going to come down hard on this, but I want to be clear about something. I want to be honest. And that we were also going to talk about how I feel about Linus's finale. I just want to be honest with you that I had a similar arc for myself planned for Briar Patch season two, where I was going to be shirtless for the majority of it, and also get into a firefight in Iran. now I can finally be honest about why there wasn't season two

because my pitch was very thorough but so I get it in the Rufasa grasslands would you be yoked in this? Hell yeah hell yeah it looks better put these goggles on it looks much better

now that we are on video like wouldn't it be amazing I took my shirt off and I just had like the ropey Rayf finds Odysseus body that he got have you seen that? What? Ray Fines is in a movie where he's like plays Odysseus. Okay. And he's jacked.

Like for real, not 300. Like they airbrushed him. Like, I think he got absolutely swollen those conclave robes. Is it like Fastbender in the agency? Where he's like, I am now a normal man. Returned from writing books involved. We'll talk about this in a minute.

Okay. Let's, I should also say just for context, that Taylor Sheridan's not lioness, but lionization of himself, has been the subject of some online commentary already. I saw a piece on Vulture today, I believe, was called Like, This is a Cry for Help. So I believe that the Yellowstone recap on Vulture began, what the fuck is going on or something like. Because this is the penultimate episode of one of the most,

inarguably most popular shows. and a not even tertiary character spends the majority of it with his shirt off flirting with one of the Hadid sisters. Playing strip poker. And playing strip poker. With Beth. Yeah. That's wild. Yes.

Can you now, standing, the man standing in front of me sitting, can you make the case for Yellowstone, late period Yellowstone? Is there a case to be made? I stopped being able to make the case when Rissola and I were recapping the previous season. You guys. My boys. Hit double eject, like Goose and MAV right out of the top. Now, one of those guys dies in the ejection. Respect to Ryan.

But we tried. You know what I mean? Like, I still stand by those first few seasons, the first season especially. The Yellowstone Project, I think, has become a victim of, like, all the various interested partners and parties. I think that the Kevin Costner thing wound up. Actually, if you actually get a good accounting of it, I don't know how they even made the last season with him, kind of being like, you can have me for five minutes.

So I'll walk into that room and be like, God, damn it, Beth. Time to die. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's, but it's sort of inextricable to consider that show apart from. I think that that show is being literally, like, primed for market to be spun off into the Madison, which is this Michelle Pfeiffer, Kurt Russell's show that's going to have something to do with Yellowstone

and a Texas spinoff from some of the Kemp off from some of the. characters, like a Texas ranch spinoff. And I'm sure Taylor Sheridan's ranch hand guy will play a part in that Texas one. The potential continuation of the show or rebranding of the show with Matthew McConaughey is dead. That old rumor.

Apparently. So it's basically just it's being brought to market to be stripped-bind. He cast Bella Hadid as his girlfriend? Yes. We were in you, Kaya. I needed you. It took me a second to process that. I was like, is there a third Hidid sister? I don't know about it.

There's Marsha Hadid, and she's just like a really like normal woman. But there's a lot of like, that means that in this show in Yellowstone, but also in Landman Ep 5, or episode 4, there is a recurring thing where extremely young women are asked why they want to sleep with these 70 year old guys. Yeah. And they're like, well, they've just got a certain way about them. I mean, the man likes what he likes. So should we talk about a little bit about Linus?

Yes. And we need Kaya because Kaya is. We need Kai to jump on here because she watched it. You guys will talk about Linus. Thanks are going on this journey with me. Of course. Yeah. Let me be completely candid.

I thought that this season of Lioness started off incredibly strong. Yeah. I was never bored for a second of this season of Lioness. I do think that the politics got a bit muddy at the end. Do you like a consistent political show? Like you want it to be... Okay. I think once they jump, they fully just like jumped the ship on the Mexico plot and we're like,

actually now we're going to like go and invade Iran. Yeah, that's when I was like, what are we doing here? Yeah, I think that that was, to be fair, what the White House chief of staff in the show was saying. She was like, how have you decided to start a hot war without informing the commander-in-chief? It seems like a good question. And Morgan Freeman was just like, if it's a win, it's a win for all of us. And if it's a loss, I take the loss. Now, watch this drive.

Classic George W. Bush fashion. So I thought that, like, it became a show that was like actually like a very, very effective. espionage show and also got into the like what happens when you go too far undercover idea. And also try to break up a child smuggling ring. Well, that was in the second season. The first season, it was like this woman cruise got close to a woman named Aaliyah. And it was like, it was actually like a very effective storytelling mechanism. In the second season, I think it just became about seven different things, which I understand

that's what happens on shows. But this was like, is this about Mexico or is it about China? or is it about Iran or is it about, you know, all three of those... A helicopter pilot and her father. Yeah, exactly. So this season ends. And Taylor write every episode of this one of the song. Directed the first two, much like he did with Landman.

Feels limiting, but okay. You want to get some new voices in there? I mean, let's wait until we get to Landman. Because I have genuine questions about this, because what you're saying about Linus, that it's like about too many things. It's kind of my feeling about Landman, which is it's about too many things and also no things.

Like there are certain strands that are... Well, I think that actually works for Landman. Okay. I think you have to reset what you're watching with Landman. I think with Lioness, you think you're watching a modern day, highly like militarized Tom Clancy show. Right. And what happens is like as the... The plot almost has to come up with his like, what if we did this?

That would be fucking sick. It feels like the plot is designed to set up these big action set pieces. Exactly. There was a lot of that this season. There was multiple like, whoa, this is like a movie-level shootout that they're doing. It's also, I would gather, I would guess that almost every location from Monterey, Mexico to the Turkey-Iran-Iraq border is shot in Texas. No doubt. Which I think is really making the most out of your property, but is I thought notable that like it was like this looks exactly like where they just were.

It's just that you're pretending this is Iran. the stuff with Caitlin, who is Nicole Kittman's character and Byron, who is Michael Kelly's character. So what they do is... Do they ever leave the situation room? Oh, yeah. They go to Mexico. Oh, nice.

And they get their hands dirty. No. Yeah, they really do. So the cartel has been working with the Chinese to cause unrest at the border. Say less. And what they decide to do is kidnap the accountant for the Los Tigris cartel,

who was also Josie, the main lioness's father. Oh. And that was the original sort of like, you got to go to your dad and basically make it so that he will betray his father. There was this whole plan where she was going to like fly her helicopter into Mexico and then like smuggle drugs, drugs back. And then we, they just decided to drop that because. Because of this, what happened with the child trafficking.

Then what they do is they go to this accountant guy in Costa Rica where he is, being held at a black site. It's also Texas. And, you know, Caitlin says to him, we need trust. We need to work with people we trust. Can we trust you? Can we trust you to tell us

if the Chinese or the Iranians reach out to you? And he's like, I guess so. And he's like, well, we trust your whole family. We'll protect your whole family, except one guy. And that's his brother. So what they do is they go to Monterey, Mexico.

And he goes, Hermitito. And they hug. And he shoots his brother, he shoots his brother in the head. Who shoots his brother? Like Pablo, the guy. He shoots his own brother? Yeah, in front of everybody. And they're like, ah, new hefe.

And then Michael Kelly throws up. And then Michael Kelly throws up. Because not of what he witnessed, but how little it's going to change things. Yes. Wow. Also, the two of you guys tag teaming to describe this to me is... Honestly, it's a two-person job. Also, how flippantly, Kyle is like they've got a Chinese agent.

like with like blinders on, like strapped to a chair in Mexico for some reason. And Kyle's like looks at Caitlin and she goes, Guantanamo. Like, like should we? Yeah, and they do. Like the same way people are like table fries? Yeah, exactly. Like, is anyone feeling table pancakes? We're all thinking it, right?

So that's where Lioness ended up. Look, I think that the problem with a show like that ultimately is that you need to feel like the stakes are so high all the time. And after doing it twice, with basically the same ending, a cynical kind of like, what have we really done here moment? Yeah, we've accomplished nothing. Granted, they found love in a hopeless place. You know what I mean? Cruz and Josie.

I can't wait to see how it works out for them. But Joe, the Zoe Solis-Soldanya character, is taken back in by Neil, her husband. Had he cast her out? Yeah, he was kind of like, you've been shot in the liver, and if you're not taking your health seriously, I can't take you seriously. Wow. Tough love. Yeah.

But her mesh, the mesh they put on her liver holds when she goes to her head. And then gets like shot at again. Is that something you can get? Apparently. I need that for when I'm in London. Yeah, you got to get that mesh.

That third pint. And I take it, no one passed away from being assaulted by up to a thousand. People got shot in the stomach, but everybody's fine. Do you think that if you got, now I hope this never happens, but if you got shot in the liver, do you think Phoebe would be like

I must cast you out of our home until you take your health more seriously. I think if she was like, I've been shot in the liver but I'm going to continue to pod and it's going to rip the stitches she would be like then you have to find somewhere else to live. But what if you just love? Oh, now I understand it because you love to pot.

Yeah, and she loves to fucking shoot people. I really, I got a ton of enjoyment out of this season and especially there are moments early in this season. that I think are like fucking iconic like Zoe Saldanya yelling at people. It's just the plot

gets incredibly muddy over the course of the season and it ends with the United States essentially allowing slash running the Los Tigris cartel to operate within the United States and I don't know what happens

with the China and Iran seems like we should find out well when it ends Ambassador Feng is on the phone for Morgan Freeman and he's like let him stew. Do you think he's just calling it his million dollar picks? Do you think that's what it's about?

I love Jacksonville. Picks against Fred. Thanks for allowing that to happen. I love this. Guess the lionesses. I think that... Thank you, Kaya. Good job.

No problem. Fired up 10 p.m. last night. I was like, I got to do my homework. I never really would have thought that the person really going on this journey with me would be Kaya. I think all our listeners knew. There was never a doubt. You actually are not required to have any follow-up questions here.

No, but I generally, and I am caught up on Landman. I've watched five hours of that program. And I do think it's like a glass half-full, half-empty kind of thing. Because what you just said about Linus, you know, a typical, fair-minded CR take. Like, you enjoyed the highs and you just sort of rode the lows. You know what I mean? Like, they didn't take away from the experience for you. I like, I truly.

I truly do love this shit. So even when it doesn't make any sense or you can tell they're like resetting again so that they can do a third season. Yeah. I'm like, I'm aware of what I'm watching and I appreciate it. I struggle with Landman

because there are things there and we talk about... You don't struggle with Landman. Yeah, I do because I'm still watching it. No, I'm saying you don't struggle. I'm struggling. If you were struggling, you would have stopped. You would have been like Lyon.

It's like, I can't, dude. No, I am. your friend. I think you secretly like a Miyazaki movie. I will continue to... I wanted to secretly like Landman. And I think that I secretly

was liking it until this fifth episode. Okay. And what I'm... It cannot get out of its own fucking way. Let's do a little bit of spoilers for the fifth episode.

Because speaking of not being able to get out of the way, this episode concludes. with a guy named Rick being crushed by several tons of iron bar pipe piping

and he is the architect of his own destruction he really is he's acting like a grade A prick he's throwing a huge fucking moody on the top of tons of metal unsecured iron pipes

kicking them in frustration that his workday is going to be long but then he dies right in front of his boss Billy Bob Thornton that was the point where you're out he doesn't just no I enjoyed that part it reminded me I texted this. It did remind me a little bit of Walter J. Weatherman on Arrested Development being like,

and that's why you don't have a tantrum on top of a truck full of iron piping. Because he did, he didn't die right away. No. He had enough time to have a cell phone in his hand. Well, it was Billy Bobbs. Yeah, he handed him a cell phone. He said, call your wife. Now, he's like, what do I tell her?

A couple things. My fan duel count 10 numbers. Take the money line. There were a couple the deepest moment of humanity in the show was a guy calling his wife to say goodbye on A, someone else's phone

B in the middle of the day and I think that we all know honestly very few of our loved ones would pick up that call if it came from an unknown number Don't you think if we did something more important our wives would pick up if we called? Like if we were like, I'm working with tons of metal piping. No, because how many, I mean, yes, they would say that.

I would just set it up where I'm like, I won't bother you during the day. Except. And if I need you, I'll send a text if it's just like, can you pick up more mechalob? And here you are calling. If I call, it's probably to tell you I love you before my lungs collapse. Chris, this is an unknown number. So my point is that Phoebe being a lovely person gets the brief. Like, she understands.

But the sixth time she picks up panicked and it's like act blue for the attorney general candidate in Missouri. she's like, fuck this. I have to have my Tuesday. You know what I mean? Like, there has to be an end to this. Unfortunately, the end was to her husband at the bottom of a mountain of iron piping. Yeah.

So it's a tough beat for Rick. That's not my issue. The bigger issue, and this is why I kind of wanted to tie it into the larger Taylor Sheridan thing, is that his project is so unique, and it is just unvarnished brain gush. It is like hanging out. It's basically like his podcast that he does solo.

Yes. And it is just like being talked at by someone. This is why I want to talk to him. I want to know how he plots these shows out. Because like there's so much story in each one of these. But there's also so much time wasting. I don't think it's time wasting. I think it's real life taking place on camera.

Okay. How long is the... Frederick Wise and a documentary? How long is that dinner scene with Allie Larder? It's so, so long. And the gist of it is she's sad that they don't appreciate her pasta. Her bolognese. that she had wild boar flown in from Italian.

But also, eight adults are like, what's this ribbon of wheat on my plate in a ketchup sauce? And she's like, that's an Italian pasta. And he's like, interesting. It fucking sucks. Because I don't like it. They're like, this tastes good, but I watch men die for a living. It's not just that.

Here's something that I want to talk about. And I imagine that it happens across all of his shows. And I would like to coin this phrase if it hasn't already been coined, which is inevitably three times per episode, maybe four or five times, especially on Landman. Other characters are in a scene, and their job is to lob a couple softballs at Billy Bob or John Hamm.

Yeah. Right. Those fucking cucks at the board meeting were just like, I like wind power. And then they just clear out. It is like watching Luca Donchich play heliocentric basketball. Yeah. What I like to do during these scenes,

when characters are just bombastically delivering the same speech that was delivered in the previous episode about how all of you are fucking beta snowflake dipshits for plugging in your cars, watch the other actors in the scene. I call this the Taylor Sherrodays. This is when every other actor in the seed just has to awkwardly stare into the middle distance

while someone speaks uninterrupted for three to six minutes about wind power. It is so fucking nuts to watch these other actors who are like, I get to be on a TV show, what did you do? I watched the rest of the rest of the movie. restaurant table awkwardly, while a 30-year-old told me how to be a lawyer, even though my character is a lawyer.

Like, it's so deeply unnatural. It's like Japanese no theater. That's why I like it. It's so weird, man. There's no rhythm to these scenes. Like, you get to the dinner scene in episode five. He's come back home. He's got James Jordan with him.

They're just disgusting. Jacob Loughlin, the Cooper character, has just been mowing along for an entire other workday. cut to the dog and the dog's like, yep, still watching you mow the lawn. Then he mows the lawnmower and he cuts to the dog. And he's like, do you like me yet, dog? And the dog's like, bark, bark. He's like, one day you will like me, dog. Anywhere else I can mow?

And then Pauline Chavez's character is like, if you drink one beer, it promotes breastfeeding health, right? Taylor Sheridan Google's lactation. Dude, I heard that's kind of true though, right? I got the other supplements that'll work for you. I apparently within, I asked my wife, I said, is that true? And she was like, I don't know, I haven't had a child. Did you call her in the middle of the day? No, we were at dinner.

From the bottom of a pile of metal. She was like, what are we going to talk about? It's Sunday dinner. And I was like, well, there's been a couple of ideas kicking around the Taylorverse that I'd like to bounce off of you. Where were you when Billy Bob needed a conversation at the Boston dinner? They were in silence when it could have been like, I hear beer is good for your boobs.

And then the other daughter, when it's just like stared wistfully happily because her parents are fucking noisily in the next room. By the way, there's the scene when, you're right, I do love the show. Where else can we get this? There's the scene when Allie Larder is taking her daughter. All other shows are like, oh, I hope this person.

I'm not a bad person. I hope this person is a good person, even though they might be bad. I hope this person really heals from this. And instead, we get Allie Larder wobbling like a absolute fabulous taking a lie detector test between her character's two modes, which are like, why don't you fuck me enough? And let's go shopping for tequila. And she has to be seen. Well, also, they introduced her menstrual cycle to this episode. Again, it's just like Taylor Sharon's like, what are other things that we're not allowed to talk about in today's cucked society?

I know asking wives where they are with a red menace. let's fucking go. That's how I like to talk to ladies like my girlfriend, Bella Hadid. Did I mention that's my girlfriend? That's not real life girlfriend? No, not yet. He's very charming.

I like when Ali Larder and her daughter, she's like, come on, we need to celebrate the little things in life. Like you now being old enough to run for president of the United States, my teenage daughter. Why did Ali Larder's character think that she is a gamilf

rather than just a gilf? Because Taylor Sheridan doesn't get noticed. He's just like, that must be what it is. And everyone's like, yes, sir, big boss. It's so crazy. In the midst of all this, there are these moments where I'm like, this is interesting. The moments, unlike some. Every time John Hamm picks up a phone, I'm like, what's you going to say this time?

I'm like, shh, to everything in the world. I need to hear what he's going to say. Unlike some, I enjoyed Billy Bob Thornton's probably, factually, deeply untrue monologue about the fallacy of clean energy. I did not enjoy having the same lecture the next week from John Hamm. It's just bad reading. It's not the same lecture. That's more about the public perception of fossil fuel industry.

You're unbelievable. I'm saying there's a difference. Billy Bob Thornton is like everything you see is powered by oil. And even if like we aren't even ready to make the move to electric, which in fact also has like a pretty difficult carbon footprint. I have no idea if any of that's true. I just drive a gas guzzling German car. John Hamm is like, we can't get these people on our side. We don't control how our product is used. Right. Yeah, just hands in the air. We're all innocent here. Yeah, where's my private plane? The church of money. The thing that makes a Taylor Sheridan show

noteworthy isn't Billy Bob Thornton's entire scene with a 30-year-old lawyer who doesn't know how to hold a handbag, where he just always has the right thing to say and just dunks on her again and again and again and then lectures her about wind turbines. It's that at the end of that scene, in case the point hasn't been made, she is then menaced by a rattlesnake, frozen to the site, and he then decapitates the snake with a shovel and takes the rattle as a blood souvenir of what he's done. You don't think it's cool to how she gets after it in the deposition, though? As someone who has known attorneys. That scene was so fucking crazy where the high-priced lawyer on the other side says objection. And she's like, you fucking dip shit. You don't even know what this is, do you?

My dead Army Ranger father would shit on your grave. Yeah, and she's like, I don't have an Army Ranger father. But we're done here and the entire lawsuit goes away. And then the daughter's like, you guys want to get skinny margs? I hope there's no sugar in this tomato sauce. That's an interesting part. Yeah, it's fascinating. She has been in a bikini for 87% of this show. And your guy,

Yeah? Who's my guy? Who's my guy? Great actor. His job on the show is to be like, no. And still you watch. Because of you're my friend.

You know deep down that we don't get this anywhere else. There's nowhere else to find it. There's no Romanian series. There's no fucking. there's no fucking Beacock series. To find it. What this is. This is somebody like brain barfing onto the screen.

And I would actually, if these episodes were like hour and six placid minutes, I'd be like, come on, man. Like, I'm not doing this. These are like, you never know when a cartel guy is going to show up and be like, this is my land. Yeah. That's my road. And then Billy Bob's like, film this. I got to get my piece. Also, my guy boss, who I'm into.

My guy boss is like, he has a really interesting management approach. Yeah. Where he's like, I support everyone equally. But when one of my guys who has been threatened at gunpoint three times doesn't get into the truck, I just let it roll. No big deal. He's also like every day men and my employee have their arms and hands permanently disfigured. Yeah. But when a guy in a ponytail shows up and loosely threatens my boss, I'm walking off the job.

Yeah. The only thing I'm kind of confused about is why, I mean, Cooper's just trying to help out. You know what I mean? I want to talk about Cooper. Okay. Who's the actor? Jacob Loughlin.

He's very good. Yes. He's very good. He's in the Friday night lights of this show. Yes. And Paulina Chavez as well. Like that whole conceit, again, like it's so clumsy. But it does make me wonder, like, I'm in a writer's room right now.

And like, why do we spend days of a week figuring out a clever or interesting or emotionally compelling or even maybe just like recognizable as human behavior true? way into a scene when you can just do the same scene twice and move on. Because if the goal is to have him and the widow of one of the guys eventually become close, perhaps intimate. Yeah, there are two people looking for friendship in Texas. He shows up. You're amazing.

He's just like candidate Beto O'Rourke. Just trying to find friends. She, he shows up. There's nowhere to sit in the house except the couch sliver between her. who's breastfeeding. Yeah. One beer deep, no doubt. And like a big guy,

just to squeeze in there. And then there probably was a moment when Taylor Sheridan's like, what's happening in the scene? And he was like, you know it was funny in the previous episode when he couldn't eat spicy food?

Let's run it back. Let's just run it back. Let's literally just have him eat spicy food again. And now they're... The reason why we have spent this entire conversation talking about

our favorite little bits and our little confusions is because One of the reasons why I love this show is that it is not about anything. It's about all the shit that they scream and cry that it's about, but there is no villain. It's a case of the week show. You could have watched one and two and then five, and you would have been like, I got it. 100%.

And I, there is something kind of, there is an artistry into what he is doing in that regard. And also, I love the fact that whereas like with Lioness, you really have to have, you have to have your global map out to know what's going on with Lioness and everything is the fate of the free world until it's not. With Lamb Man, you're just like, oh, that's another workplace liability. OSHA is going to be hearing about this. I did want to say, like, to give credit to it. Like, I think that the Jacob Lofflin, Polina Chavez scenes are good and compelling. And it doesn't matter how they got there or how, you know, the gesticulations to put them in this room or whatever. they are both in a show that I'm interested in.

Yeah. And I like it. The kid being like, I don't know any other way to help. You know what I mean? It's, there is like, it's a genuinely sweet little exchange.

His attitude about showering, I'd like to interrogate a little bit. I don't know what the deal is with that. I guess maybe he's just like, I'm not showering for your expensive dinner. Right, on this new first. Because he's trying to shed this class consciousness, you know?

Yeah, but like he's also shedding a lot of like, be oh, man. Like, be respectful. Look at the nice meal your mother made. She's just, She's such a cool mom. She's so fun.

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Three episodes deep. This show for me, I know a lot of people loved the first two episodes. I liked them. I think I was having a little bit of like, oh, I feel like every single thing here is just basically almost sometimes word for word from LaBiro, the show it's based on. Those first two episodes were directed by Joe Wright. Yes.

Some lovely shots in the first two episodes. Some lovely mood setting and, you know, the idea that this open floor plan office is this maze of deceit and backstabbing. And, you know, where can you find an honest person in here? All that stuff visually represented really well. Michael Fastbender, Warrior Monk standing in an apartment block at the bar, Like, you know, isolated against this brutalist architecture or whatever. I get it all and I love it all.

But it does speak to the difference in TV and film when you get into this episode, the third episode directed by Philip Martin, whose work I'm not aware of. And this is no knock against Joe Wright who's made three movies that I love and several that I like quite a bit, that this just felt way more fleet of foot and felt way more like a TV show. And I think focused on the performance. in a way that brought characters to life in what is a very complicated dance

because Catherine Waterston you're like, I know that she is important but might not be important for a little while because of the way the story is structured. I thought that there was a couple of scenes of Gear Wright, Waterston, Fastbender, and Magarro where you're like,

that is the difference between that person and like replacement level acting. Yeah. Because even Jeffrey Wright asking Catherine Waterston when she's like, do you think that he's adjusting all right to being back or is, you know, and he's like, are you asking for him or are you asking for you? And she's like both in her eyebrow cocks.

Yeah. Like that's movie star acting. Like the way that you can communicate an emotion or a feeling with just like the smallest facial gesture or something like that is just, that's what like elevates you. And I just thought multiple times gear going into the cube where he talks to Dominic West. Yeah.

And it's just like, how are you feeling in there? He's like, cozy, you know? Yeah. I was like, that's fucking Richard gear, dude.

Like, it just got, it really warmed up for me, and I, and I really enjoyed this episode a lot. I think this is an interesting conversation because I agree with every point you're making. And I mean, I see the same things you do,

certainly in the acting and performing. And for the record, Philip Martin is a veteran British TV director. Jerry's genius or whatever. He did seven episodes of the Crown. You've seen his work before. Yeah. I thought this,

was a pretty weak episode. Oh, here we go. A little Sisky and Ebert. I'm not drawing big conclusions. I think that in a way we're responding to similar things, which is to say, usually in television dramas, the big drop-off is between the first and second episode. There's tons of time lavished on the pilot

in the same way that we say, like, you know, you have your whole life to make your first album, and then the band's second album you'd make in 10 months, and it's rarely as good. Yeah. This, in this, because they clearly block shot the first two episodes and Joe Wright directed them, this third episode was the agency's second episode.

Yeah. Or its premiere as a TV show. In which it is sort of struggling to find its footing after the precipitous drop from cinema to television. It can come back from this. It's fine. But explain what you mean. Well, okay, so on a couple levels,

the biggest one for me was, I thought that the show, this episode was very, very poorly lit. Joe Wright clearly is a stickler for his shot selection, for his lighting. His symmetries, yeah. Yeah, for his big, the glass box on top of the glass box. I don't know, and I don't, you know, making the shit is real hard. So I'm not saying anybody screwed up or something. You know, there was also locations and there was a lot of night stuff.

But the entire hotel assignation at the beginning between Fastbender Martian and Samia, Joe Turner Smith was incredibly dark and muddy. And even the follow-up conversation with Martian and Jeffrey Wright's character, just the kind of thing where it's like, if you have actors with darker skin, you need to light them appropriately. So they're fully present in the scene. And that bumps me when I realize that, when you see it done well and you see it done poorly,

it felt when it's noticeable in specific ways like that, I'm like, this isn't just a, we're de-accelerating the sports car to get into like the, you know, the meat of the season before we ramp it up again. It's like, oh, they had to figure out from scratch how they're going to communicate the show visually, and I felt that. Okay. I also felt that with the lack of, listen, you know I'm the least director bullshit guy. Yeah, that's why I'm kind of surprised to hear this.

But the director bullshit, I thought in the first two episodes, was lifting up the show in terms of its, maybe it's pomposity, but also its ambition. Without that in this episode, I found that it was a lot of people declaring themselves and who they are in speeches to each other. and did not feel like narratively propulsive or like character-based quirk. Are you thinking mostly about like the poppy Martian scene? Yes. And the doctor and Martian scene? Yes, I am. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly those scenes. And again, the Fastbender part, he is doing a lot. Like, they keep putting him in a position where he is like, I am going to break through this veneer by telling you everything that you think you know. Yeah. There is a choice when you cast Michael Fastbender and you want to use, speaking of sports cars, and isn't that what he spends most of his time doing? Like, you don't want to cast a Lamborghini and then have it slowly cruise around the neighborhood.

Like you want to get it on the open road. And he is such a kinetic and powerful weapon on screen. I'm struggling with a little bit. And maybe it's partly the understanding of the character in the French version. Yeah. Because Matthew Cassivitz, you know, he's relatively ripped. but he's also... A bookish kind of like...

He's kind of normie. The whole point of him is that he is the kind of guy that you would walk by and not notice. And Fastbender is not. Yeah. And when he runs hot, he seems like a lunatic.

He seems like the lunatic you want on your side in a foxhole. But, you know, him... The way that he's walking, the way he's behaving, I am bumping slightly on Jeffrey Wright being like, yeah, he just wanted to have

a quick, you know, side piece. I get it. You know, like he does not... Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea is that Jeffrey Wright's got his own secrets because he's been kind of checking on operations you shouldn't be because of his brother-in-law. This seems like tic-itac criticism, and I am in on this show, but I found that other than the high points that you just mentioned, and for me, the highest point is Richard Gear, who is fucking Richard Gear on this TV show, he's so sick.

He's so effortlessly good and awesome. And every scene, like the scene when he basically lets Fastbender know that he's been listening to the audio tape. I mean flat. He crushes that scene. When he comes in and he's been briefed and he explains everything without telling him anything, without telling anyone a thing.

Like, I love that. But I'm just throwing it out of here. I don't want to be negative Nancy about this. But like, there is a severity and puffed up nature to the show that is a delicate balancing act. And weirdly, I thought Joe Wright's direction was allowing it to,

stay afloat. And if you're trying to make this show with this tone and this seriousness of purpose and this really like grim speechifying intensity, you're going to have to slap your wings a lot to stay in the air. Otherwise it sinks a little bit.

Do you feel like for some reason the coyote Felix and whatever the name of the guy who's got been redacted into a black site and the wooden duck character. I can't remember that character's name.

But basically all of the spy craft game, all the spy game stuff, do you find that legible? I don't remember on the first pass of Bureau being like underwater the way I am. But it also might be a little bit of like what the show is doing to you because obviously they go an inch into explaining what the Felix operation is without telling you. But I didn't, I didn't know Felix is an asset. they are looking for in Ukraine? Like, are this, is he an assassination? Like, we don't, okay, we don't know. No, but it's a similar, I believe it seems like it's a similar operation than the operation that was in the French first season. I think that what I'm missing is, and I should go back and watch the first few episodes, just sort of see rhythmically what they're doing because

like the Butterworth's like, they should do something different. Like, you have the opportunity. I think having Ukraine makes it a little different. Yes, but they also, I think one of the things that they're doing differently is a portioning story and what they're paying attention to. And so one of the thing that I lacked in this episode was the Danny character. She's the woman who's being trained to go undercover in Iran.

She's not in this episode at all. Yes. And one of the smart things about the French show was it was like, we are partnering two stories and... Bringing them together. And only at the beginning,

because Martian supposedly is that the French iteration of the character is home and is done, supposedly, right? Whereas he's crossing paths with a woman who's just beginning for undercover adventure. And they are together early, and then they split up, and those storylines don't converge. Now, we will see what the Butterworths and the brain trust behind the show, what they are interested in.

They are blowing out some storylines and reducing other ones. But I thought that that was a very smart way to be like a little handholdy because the education of the audience was being, done on screen with the education of the young woman character, as opposed to downsizing that part. So Fastbender is behaving this way and then lecturing us as to why he's behaving that way. Yeah. I like the idea that you and I can watch like the same thing and that we, I like it for the reasons that you don't like it and vice versa. Like I think that I found the first two episodes a little bit too glacial. And, and I liked, you know, I got what Joe Wright was doing and creating this London of secret apartments inside of big, big buildings where everybody, you know,

like I got it. But I felt like these scenes got into their point faster in the third episode. I felt like the characters moved more quickly and weren't as like performative, like, yet like randomly yelling at each other for some reason. Like I thought everything kind of was like, ah, this is the sort of, this is the map of these people and how they interact with each other. And there were just more moments of like Jeffrey Wright walking by Richard Gere and Michael Fastbender and being like, why are they talking without me there? Like a little bit more of the internal politics that I really like enjoyed in the first series. I think anytime John McGarro's on the show, it lights up because it's like, hey, that guy, that's funny. There's always going to be

a little joke. His chairs in plastic. He's stressed out. One thing that I'm interested in watching, and I don't have any like assumption. I don't know what it would mean one way or another, but the Butterworths are film writers generally, screenwriters, very high. highly paid, very highly regarded screenwriters and rewriters. And Joe Wright is a film director. And what was interesting about this episode is that this is the episode where it downshifted into being a TV show, but the writing and plotting still felt seen into a different kind of language so that the moments that you're pulling out to me feel like the TV moments.

And the episode from the way it was directed, even the things I'm complaining about, were kind of like, hey, let's lower the flame a little bit. Yeah. But it's a balancing act. And all this is to say, you should never judge a show on the second episode. And in this case, spiritually, this was the second episode. So I think we'll learn a lot more next week. Do you think Taylor Sheridan will show up on this show. Do you think he's Felix? That would be... What's up, guys? I mean, we are in the Ellison family tree here. Yeah. You know, it is part of Showtime Paramount Plus. Like, we're all part of it. No, you said that guy, the producer, right? It's like on both. Glasser, yeah. This show has been renewed for season two.

That is not a surprise, but also it is a relief. It is a relief because, well, I mean, first of all, I don't think that it would even, you can't tell this story and pretend like you're doing it in one season. So what Andy and I said when we first started talking about, the agency still goes, which is that part of the genius of this series is seasonal storytelling. Yeah.

And what it does over the course of multiple seasons. And at least, you know, in the renewal announcement, we don't have any access to the numbers, and we don't understand. It's doing quite well, apparently. But what your friends are paramount were trying to tell the world is, hey, we got one here.

Yep. Yeah. Which they better, considering they spent for it. And I think it's a good thing. No matter what I thought of this episode, investing big on a great property and casting the shit out of it and not skimping, I want those risks to be rewarded

because people are not taking risks anymore in hashtag this town. All right, Andy, so a little bit of admin, which I think probably would have been more useful at the beginning of the episode. But whatever. No, Kaya told me everyone listens all the way to the end. Always. They listen to a cackling version of

me and Kaya trying to describe what happens in the season finale of Lions. I don't mean trying. There was no trying. You did it. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. You can watch us on the Ringer TV YouTube channel. Like and subscribe. We'll try and do some exclusive content for this channel. I'm just going to do some

Taylor Sheridan stuff for it. And we're really excited to be here. Joe and Rob will also be here on the Prestige TV gang on this channel so you can check everything about TV out here. I also think it's very brave of you to commit to doing the next episode shirtless, like Taylor Sheridan playing strip poker. I just have a couple more batches of the substance to take before. You got that fucking Ray Fines Torso.

Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you soon. Footing off replacing your window treatments because you think it's complicated? At blinds.com, we've spent 30 years proving it doesn't have to be. And today is your last chance to save big on spring black Friday deals. Whether you want to DIY or? or have a pro to handle everything for measure to install, we've got you.

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