The Watch - 'Halo’ and Master Chief Are Coming to TV, and the ‘Sicario’ Cinematic Universe Is Here | The Watch (Ep. 270)

Episode Date: June 28, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss Showtime's announcement that it's making a new show based on the popular Xbox video game ‘Halo’ and why it’s an interesting play (6:00). Later, they prepare for Drake’s new album ‘Scorpion,’ (22:00) before Jason Mantzoukas calls in to discuss ‘Sicario 2: Day of the Soldado’ (27:00) and what the original ‘Sicario’ meant to Chris and Andy (38:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Sunglass Hut. Summer is here. Accessorize your summer wardrobe with great styles from Sunglass Hut at Macy's. From now until July 8th, get 50% off select styles from the Sunglass Hut collection just in time for your Fourth of July celebrations. And be sure to check in on all the latest looks and great deals. And remember, Sunglass Hut at Macy's is your destination for summer style. I need sports to have to clear the room.

Stand up and walk. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at The Winger.com and joining me in the studio. It's his ratchet happy birthday. It's Andy Greenwolds! Guys, I gotta tell you, it's Thursday.

This is what we used to call our re-up podcast. And there's something cooking on the other side of this table right now. Chris has some mysterious BDE. I've made my triumphant return to live blogging. That's where the BDE is coming from. It's like live blogging is its own form of BDE. That's incredible. You feel really?

connected to the world. I'm proud of you about that. Look, whatever it takes, we are about two false flag events away from Gilead right now. So if live blogging is what's getting you through. Jesus Christ. Oh, man, Andy, it's Thursday. It's a beautiful day in Los Angeles. We're going to try and keep our head on a swivel and get through this podcast while the world is

seemingly falling apart around us. We are talking today about the Halo. Halo is coming to showtime. The Halo, Halo effect. They finally made, they're finally moving forward. This is a video game that was, I would say, relatively important to me in Andy's life. Oh, I would say pretty important. I mean, not like perfect dark on the N64 level, but just one notch below that.

Yeah, and so I want to talk about Halo. I want to talk a little bit about the Drake record, which is coming up, I guess, in a matter of hours, right? And then we're also going to revisit the original Sicario. Or should I say, Suko! That feels good. Yeah, I got to tell you something to be completely real with you. Yeah, finally. I saw Dave Zaldato already.

I know. That was unbelievable flex by you last night. Chris went dark on all the socials last night. No, it was two nights ago. Or two nights ago. He vanished. He went completely dark. I didn't know how to reach him.

I was told that he was like doing advanced work for the DOD or something. Yeah. Sounds like a spook to me. He went, he ghosted. And then like, I went to bed, woke up the next morning, text from my man here at 1037 p.m. And it's just like, saw Soldado. Went to a lovely movie theater out by UCLA.

It was the world premiere of Dave the Soldado. The world premiere, you walked the, I assume, blood red carpet? No, I wasn't a part of like the celebrity element of it. I was just, I just was going as a hardcore fan. I went. Did you cosplay? No. Did you wear clubclubs?

I actually was really underdressed because a lot of people were going to the after party. And I was just like just looking like a bum out there. But I was sitting right near Issaio Morales. Great. I was sitting right near Set It Ups Glenn Powell. You may remember from Everybody Wants Some. Oh, I heard he's having a moment right now. He sure is.

He's auditioning for Top Gun too. He is. And other members of the audience that I noticed were, actually I can't remember anybody else, but Chris Delia from Whitney. This is a great group for you to be. And I think, of course, Josh Brolin, Nietzscheo de Toro that was there.

I was walking out of this. theater after the film and everybody was screaming, Benichio! Yeah. And I was like, it ain't me, man. And it was him. He was right in front of me. But that you thought for a moment. I just thought maybe people had was confused.

Yeah, I mean, that could, that definitely could happen. What kind of facial scruff were you working that night? I actually hadn't shaved in a couple of days, so not much at all. But it was still, it was still baby fuzz. Baby fuzz, peach fuzz. Do you feel that you can credibly have a conversation with me about the anticipation factor for this movie. Yes.

Having seen it. I can. Okay. All right. But there will be no spoilers, right? I can be the guy who's on the other side of the river sticks, the boatman. Got it. You know?

Is that a relevant reference for this film? Because it feels like... Quite. So we're going to revisit Sicario, the original film a little bit in the second half of the podcast. We'll probably give it a little bit of a rewatchable-style treatment. I should mention, just as while I have your attention, that we will have a rewatchables next week for July 4th, which is one that's very near and dear to my heart. We're doing Jaws.

Wow. Do you like Jaws? I respect Jaws. Okay. I mean, a movie that I saw 25 years ago, I don't, I don't know if I can still say I like it or not. You know it's like one of the three best movies ever made, right? Is that the one with the shark? Are you being serious right now?

I know what I know what Jaws is. Okay. But I really never saw it again. I did see it. Or is it scary? Is that what you didn't like it? Um, it was scary. It's scary movie.

Like, were you like, I can't go, I'm choosing the water over Jaws? No, there's just like a, there was a period of like, you know, there's like big, thick VHS boxes that one would rent and then you saw the movies you were supposed to see and then you never did it again. There's some movies I saw like a hundred times. No, that's not what happened. I could be like, I've decided that I like five movies and I will watch them for all of my...

Well, I didn't own them. I'm just saying... In hindsight, if I could go back and take maybe 30 to 35 views of Diehard away from my total of 100... Redistribute it. Redistribute those views among other iconic films, I would.

Am I not defending my turf enough? No, I think as long as die-hard is the one that you're giving your attention to. I think we're okay. That's the movie I've seen more than any other movie. It's like breathless by God. My dinner with Andre was the other one, a hundred times. That explains so much.

Okay, so, Halo, a little bit of Drake, a lot of... Is this still a table of contents? This is a great podcast. I'm just moving through it. I've been inspired by a little bit of podcast listening this week, so I want to have like a looser feel. Are you live blogging our podcast right now? Let's talk about Halo.

Okay. Halo is a game for Xbox. that we both played a lot of. I would not say that when I was playing it, I was like, what's really important to me is the film adaption of this. You didn't do Cortana fanfic back in the day? Is that now what you were about?

This is what I was hoping. I had to look up a couple of things on Hamoppedia. Not me, bra. Your boy did not need any assistance. So we're gonna talk about the flood now. One thing that's funny about Greenwald and I, I don't know if you call it funny or just telling.

Only children. Yeah. And only children don't really give a shit about multiplayer games. Never have understood that. Not really trying to hang out with other people while I play video games. No. So I respect the Fortnite hustle. I understand the attraction of putting on the headset and just dialing up some friends and playing.

Just yelling swears at strangers. That ain't for me, dog. No. That's not my look. No. My look was get the lights down low. Yeah. Make it real nice and comfortable in your room.

Uh-huh. Maybe get some hers. Why not? Potato chips. Sour cream and onion only. like a large ocean spray cranberry juice with some ice, maybe a chips a hoy cookie or two. Maybe for later.

And then just play Halo. Play Halo alone. This is also why we are so old slash not really the relevant audience for video games because I was like, oh, I'm all about that adventure quest mode. You know, I'm like, I really, I actually was playing it for the narrative. You know? I didn't care. You watch Halo for the stories.

I didn't care about fragging my homies, you know. I hope I said that right. Like, that wasn't really what I was about. Wragging my homies. Either way, it's still kind of an interesting. statement. Yeah. But so this, yeah, so I love that game.

Yeah. It was really fun. And actually, though I will mercilessly mock the need to turn it into an expanded, you know, prestige television show, which we will, we will tackle momentarily, I will say that for its time as the premier launch title or close to launch title of the original Xbox, it really was immersive in a way other video games weren't. The first level where you are, you, you're dropped on this sort of jungle. Master Chief.

Planet. Yeah, that's you, dog. That's whoever, that's all of us, really. But the vibe of the trees and the life there and the way it felt and the sort of isolation of that game was so wild and intense and all-consuming. And you could definitely burn a night slash all of the early morning on it. You would come out of like eight-hour halo sessions with just like pringle dust on your fingers and just a look in your eye that was like, I've seen some stuff.

Now, let us also say, I think. From my understanding of it, which has obviously moved away, because when that game came out, you remember this, like, I was the video game critic for Spin Magazine. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. That was my hustle. That was my job. That was wild. So I did pay attention, but I do think in the time since that first game came out, the attraction to Halo and its attended sequels and games that inspired is the multiplayer, right? I mean, that's what people seem to like best.

Yeah, people like, I mean, I think there's that. I think there's also, I noticed that over the years, it seems like different games. have tried to do very much the same thing of like you're, it's you and a group of people stuck in some world, trying to fight your way out or fight your way to a goal. That's how I feel every time I drive up on the lot. I don't even know what I'm talking about. But like the point I was trying to make more was that this was one of those,

when those new consoles launched, this is one of those flagship titles. I think they've been talking about trying to make a movie or a television show out of Halo the same way they've been talking about Rainbow 6 and Call of Duty and a bunch of these games that have been happening really popular over the last 10, 12 years. But now, not only is, it seemingly like it's going to production because

Showtime has announced they're going to start filming it next year. No, they're making it straight to series order. And there's two prongs of this I want to discuss. One is just briefly the Showtime element which is like Showtime kind of making moves a little bit because they've got this and they've also signed up Deezes and Mero which I thought

was a really interesting move on their part. That does actually have like you don't have to be like oh can you really make another late night show work and those guys just have like a crowd of people like they have fans. I love it and I think that they will actually draw people over to Showtime. I did hear some griping where it's like,

is it going to be harder to get like the free clips of it? Like the Vice-Lang clips are just like go up the same way like a Jimmy Fallon monologue. I know nothing about it, but my guess is that one of the reasons why they're investing in those two guys is to become more streaming friendly to basically give people.

They're going to dangle those clips like baited hooks to get people to subscribe to Showtime. It's a model that HBO has done very well with John Oliver and Bill Ma. They push those clips. Sure. So you've got that element of Showtime kind of making a couple of different decisions for a while. I think Annie and I have kind of like teased them a little bit about every show and Showtime just becomes like a seven-season marathon. Shameless Homeland, whatever. But Billions has got its admirers among them, me. And it seems to be getting better as the seasons go on.

Deases and Merrill. Halo, it's interesting. Smilf. And Smilf. And Twin Peaks. So damn, Showtime the best network on television? Showtime is, you are right to say, low-key making moves, and they're actually taking advantage of their place in the marketplace in a very smart way. There are smart people who work there clearly, but I think that they're potentially more valued now than before within the sort of larger CBS family, and I think they're realizing that the backbone of those seven-eight season shows, be it homeland or clearly billions is primed to run for a long time, allows them the flexibility to dip in and out.

Yeah. And I think that just internally, I have gotten the vibe that there have been some big projects that they've just missed out on, that they have been major players for. Can you even give me a hint of which one was? You're like the Adrian Wojernowski of prestige television right now. That's a great question. Probably I can't, but, you know, if Netflix has, if Netflix and HBO were in a bidding war for something or mentioned as suitors for something. Assume Showtime is put itself in the mix. But for whatever reason, it's not been able to do it.

grab them. What they've been really smart about doing was playing the margins. Like, Deezis and Mero is a great move for them because it's not necessarily a natural fit. Yeah. They were probably the only place that would have taken the swing for Twin Peaks at that length, at that budget, you know, for everything that it was, and that really paid off for them as well. All of that is to say they need, this is incredible timing for us, or I can't decide if it's good or bad, because we had this conversation on Monday about what is the next Game of Thrones. Showtime was absent from that conversation when we named just about every other streaming service or major player.

This is their at bet. This is their play. Yeah. Okay. So why do we find it interesting? Well, partially because of who is involved. Now, if you guys listened to Hollywood prospectus back when me and Andy were doing the podcast for Grayland, you may remember us talking about two shows from back in those days.

I think we might have, we probably hit both of these shows back then, right? Well, Lone Star, we're talking about a creator named Kyle Killen, who was, by the way, the first guest I ever interviewed on the Hollywood Prospectus. He was the first. Are you sure that wasn't for the Andy? Greenwald show? We didn't, first of all, it was the anti-greenwald podcast. You always, it's a little dig. It's not a dig. It's not a dig. It's a very different thing. I've reserved the trademark on the Andy Greenwald show for my upcoming showtime projects. Big bidding war. Yeah. Bidding War. Yeah. I'm announcing it now.

No, he was the first guest on Hollywood prospectus, actually. And it wasn't for Lone Star, which I had reviewed for Vulture. It was that just predated. That was his one and done. I think we maybe talked a little bit about Lone Star when we first started the pot. We did. But it had been, it was already gone. Did it every, you just did the pilot? One or two episodes, two episodes aired, I believe. Okay. And then he did a show called Awake for NBC that we did talk about, and that's what he was coming on, the podcast to promote. And these were both really interesting gambits because they were clearly the work of someone who was, I think it's fair to say like an otorist showrunner at a time when we were really enamored with that idea, which isn't to say that we're not now.

But around 2011, 2012, coming out of Mad Men, Breaking Bad's in its full flight, coming out of the wire. coming out of Sopranos, coming out of Deadwood, and everybody is looking for their David Chases or their David Milch's or their Matthew Wieners, and they decide, like, Kyle Killing comes along and does this one show, Lone Star, which has a really, really great pilot that was on Fox, that has James York, who would eventually be on Mad Men

as, who do you play on Mad Men again? James Wolk. James Wolk, who would eventually be on Mad Men, and he would... He was Bob. He was Bob. That's right. And later went on to Star and CBS's Zoo.

Yes, right. And it was about basically a con man who was trying to talk his way into an oil family in Texas. He had two lives, basically. And what was notable about this, and I wrote about this at Vulture at the time, it was a cable show. It was a cable show. And it was an attempt by the network to get in on that, basically. And it was not the right place for that show. It couldn't communicate what the show was to its audience, and it did not fit, and also the margins of a show like that were not high enough.

And a year later, he's right back at it again with another incredibly high-minded, ambitious, ambitious procedural called Awake, about someone who is basically in two different worlds when he falls asleep. Yeah. And that was probably better executed, and we certainly got to see more of it, but it never went past its first season. But he's a really interesting guy. He wrote The Beaver, right? That was his first... Yeah, that was his first big thing that got made that led to the TV stuff. But he was always fascinating to me.

He then made a third TV show for ABC called Mind Games. It was Christian Slater and Steve Zon. And it was a little bit more procedurally. Yeah, I remember that. And still kind of clever and interesting, but it also didn't work. And he was fascinating to me because he was this guy who seemed to be straight out of central casting or central brain casting for what was at the time of the TV Autour model. They built him in a lab to be the one.

And yet he seemed to have this... flirtation or interest in being much more mainstream, being going for the broadest possible audience. And he was, I think, unfairly smack down three times before going dark and working on other projects. And now here he comes back with Halo. So I think it's worth looking at it from two sides. One, he makes the project more interesting to people like us.

Sure. But it is also part and parcel with our conversation on Monday about where TV is. Showtime did not come to him for, we want that, this is not fair to say. This is a reductive way to phrase it. Let me think about how I want to say it. Showtime didn't ask him for Lone Star.

Sure. They asked him for a video game that essentially is a blank canvas, but it has aliens. They probably said, we've got the rights to Halo, or we're making a move on Halo. The studio said that, yeah.

What's your take? I bet he had a good take, you know. And so, to me, this is more equivalent to, you know, a great or interesting filmmaker taking a turn at the Marvel ride. This is what TV is getting made right now.

And so having tried to Trojan horse his more out-there ideas into mainstream TV, he's now Trojan horsing his ideas into widescreen genre entertainment. Yeah. Now, widescreen or blank canvas, because just a circle all the way back, the genius of Bungy, the studio that made the video game years ago, the way they... That's a deep cut. The way they created this game, four people like us sitting with our Dorito dusted fingers,

was that they created a main character whose face you saw out of. He was a first-person shooter, who was an absolute cipher, an absolute zero. He's like just some basically like bioengineered killing machine. I'm sure in the novelizations they got more into his backstory. But we don't care. It's literally the camera, he's the moving camera with a gun attached. Yeah, and he was fighting something called the flood, right? Well, Chris, I don't want you to embarrass yourself here.

Oh, my God. Is there like a brood? What's the... Well, there's the Covenant. Okay. Those are the dog aliens that are running around. Oh, yeah. But the thing about the game that makes me excited on a cinematic level, and I mean

cinematic for TV now, is that you're playing the game. You know, like, I'm running around. This is the game that my wife would refer to as, oh, is that the game where you are a gun? I'm like, yeah, it is. You're doing your thing. It feels like Doom or whatever those other games were at the the time that were popular first-person shooters.

Midway through, it gets real spooky and real quiet. And you start finding the aliens that you've been hunting, but they're all dead already. And then the whole game turns into aliens. Okay. Because then tiny, tiny monstrous aliens start pouring out of the corpses of the other aliens. Oh, that's right. And it's super freaky. Yeah, because I remember around that time, too, Max, really Max Payne?

Do you think I'm some sort of gamer? No, I didn't know that far. And you had to, like, there was a scene in Max Payne where, like, it was a board where you had to, find, there's a, it's all black. You're in like a dark room and you're chasing the sound of a crying baby. Yeah, do you remember that? The early 2000s were weird. Because also it was all like polygon.

I also was like, you know, I basically smoked like three quarters of a pack of camel lights a day. So I would just be sitting in this apartment in Brooklyn. Yeah. Trying to find the baby while I chained smoked camel lights. But also, when you finally got to it, it was like a weird polygon devil dog. Yeah. It's like it was not like the graphics were so real. that the cries reminded you of like walking past a nursery or something.

Yeah, right. It was, you know, I didn't mind dwelling in the uncanny valley. Maybe things are too canny these days. Maybe Westworld has a point. Whoa. Whoa. Okay, so we're interested in this show. We just wanted to talk a little bit about it because it's a,

I think what you're saying is true, a lot of the people out there right now who are pitching shows, who are trying to get on shows, who are trying to get shows moving at networks or at movie studios, they're being asked to either come in and give their take on pre-existing intellectual property, or they are being asked to take maybe original work that they're working on and be like,

that's cool, do you think you could fit it under this umbrella? Do you think it could be a play on this? Is there some story that this could be applied to? And this goes back all the way to Die Hard 3, which is just a thriller called Simon Says, and they took it and they were like, let's make Die Hard 3 out of this. But I think it's worth noting that someone like Kyle Killing,

who's had some ups and downs trying to get, relatively original work off the ground, is now like, I'm gonna bring my perspective to Halo, and I would also say one more thing, which is that if any of these, I don't know if you want to call them acquisition or development wars over the last year between all these networks, tell us anything,

is that just because someone is attached to something when they announce it does not mean that they are going to be on the set when that thing starts shooting, man. 100%. Shout to Brian Fuller. The king of the press release. Yeah. Just to put some connective tissue on all of this, you mentioned Jaws as rewatchables.

Jaws is also held up often as the moment that Hollywood changed. Yeah. Turned into Blockbuster. Sean Ryan, The Shield, now he has a show called SWAT, also made Terriers, told me years ago, right when Walking Dead premiered that this was TVs or cable TV's Jaws moment. And it is reflective. This Kyle Killen decision, not to make too much of it, the show might not happen.

And as Chris said, who knows what his involvement will be, although I hope we'll get a chance to talk to him about it. This is of a piece of what TV has become, which is just almost indistinguishable in a lot of ways from the movie business and how packages are put together and what the priorities are, which makes the existence of Sicario, the original, and the sequel, kind of a miracle to me. Do you want to talk about that now?

Let's do a little, I don't know if we're taking a break or do some drake business. I mean, I was just going to say, That was a good segue. My segue was going to be like the only thing we have in the music business that could be considered a blockbuster. Your segue was good too. Is Drake's new album. Zach, which segue did you like better? Yeah, Zach, we should give a poll.

Which one do you want? Drake or Sicario? Drake? Wow. You want Drake? Wow. All right. So let's talk about this Drake record before we got to a break.

Because it's not necessarily the music that I wanted to talk about. Okay. As much as he's putting out a 25 song record today called Scorpion. Wow. One side is R&B. One side is rap. Young King Crimson. Has been releasing singles piecemeal

over the course of the year while also engaged in a battle with Puscia. Do we know for sure it's one rap, one R&B, or is that just like... I'm looking right at it. That's the rumor. That's the rumor. We don't know.

I have not had that officially confirmed from sources inside the OVO camp. Okay, continue. That's the rumor. But what I really wanted to just say about what's so interesting about this as a juxtaposition for the way that Kanye has handled the last six weeks,

which from Daytona to Tiana Taylor has been basically putting out a record every Friday and is now there were rumors that Kanye was thinking about putting out a record every week after this for 52 weeks by who by anybody I don't even understand how this Kanye show is working I could finally get a look because if you kind of like read up on it a little bit it sounds like like some of these people like Nas and Tiana when they heard the record that's like the first time they heard the record yeah he was finishing the shit on airplanes yeah like right so I don't know if that's the most efficient I mean it's it's definitely of the moment to always have new

content to pump into the coal mine or whatever or into the furnace. But Drake... Yeah, the content comes out of the coal mine. Has been doing a more traditional rollout. He's been slowly building towards this thing. He announced it. He's put out singles. He's gotten himself into a beef to draw headlines to himself. And now, the record that he's putting out is an old school, old school by like early aught's late 90s standards. 25-song behemoth. Oh, there's skits? It doesn't say skits. Okay.

Some of the songs on that record include Final Fantasy. Good name. Sandra's Rose. Can't take a joke. Well. Don't matter to me. In my feelings. That's all Drake songs.

That's how you feel. Come on. I'm upset. And Ratchet Happy Birthday. Well, that's the one I like most. Yeah. So, I mean, Drake's coming tonight. I just wanted to see,

you anticipating this. Got any thoughts on this before we go to the break? Honestly, I respect that it's a smart counter-programming strategy. to go big and to go older school in that way. And I would only push back on the argument that he is more traditional because he put out more life. It's a playlist.

Which he called a playlist, which is just more music. He stays producing music at a pace that actually puts Kanye to shame. I mean, just also jumping on tracks by younger rappers that he likes. He dominates the streaming world in a way that isn't totally because of the fact that people like the song

that he puts on the records, he has new releases constantly in a way that just actually does seem optimized for Spotify culture, which I find impressive. I guess what I'm interested in seeing is he got hit, right? Like the Russian was hit for the first time from this push-a-beam? Sure, yeah. And to respond with 25 tracks feels a little bit creaky. You know, if you want, if you get hit for the first time, if he is going to come back, you kind of want him to be coming back at his most nimble best. And to come back with just flooding the zone with 25 tracks, it does feel like, as we said at the time, like Puscha came at him with a sniper rifle, and he is turning around in a battleship. Right. So just that's just setting up the stakes.

Obviously, we haven't heard enough of the music. I think nice for what is great. And I'm sure there'll be other bangers on it, but it'll be interesting. All right, we'll talk about Drake on Monday. We'll talk about Soldado on Monday. But now we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll hear from Jason Manzukas, who's surprise calling in to talk about the Soldado marketing campaign. I mean, he's our expert. And then we're going to talk a little bit about the original Sicario movie, so we'll be back after this.

Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Orrin Alps. Did you know that 60% of what you put on your skin is absorbed? Andy Perspirant is full of harmful chemicals like aluminum that have been linked to numerous health problems and yellowing of armpits of your shirts, which sucks.

Ors and Alps, aluminum-free deodorant is a natural deodorant that actually works. The powerful deodorant uses cornstarch to absorb sweat and notes of cedarwood and fresh greens to mask odor. But it leaves out irritating chemicals like alcohol, which can cause your underarms to itch. It smells good. I actually look forward to using this. Plus, it goes on clear so you don't get any white marks on your white t-shirts.

I love this product. It's kind of like always creeped out by like some of the, you know, like, oh, this is all natural. And then it just kind of feels like a paste. This stuff is great. Head over to oaskincare.com to get 15% off your purchase. of any Ores and Alps product, including their natural deodorant, just use the code watch.

That's O, then the letter A, skincare.com, and use offer code watch to get 15% off your purchase of any Oars and Alps product. All right, now we are joined by our good buddy, friend of the pod, Jason Manzukas, who's calling in from an undisclosed location to talk to us a little bit about the Day of the Soldado marketing campaign.

Jason. Oh, guys, it is happening. The day of this, It's Thursday of the Soldado. Oh, man. Jason, thank you for doing this. You're not here with us right now, and we miss you terribly, but we believed in a simple idea, just like the founding fathers of this nation.

The three of us believed that the three of us should talk about the Sicario film franchise. And I knew that even though you were unable to come in, you were going out of town, maybe you were a little under the weather, when you texted me just street advertising of the skeleton draped in the flag this afternoon. I knew we were going to make this happen. With guns, like, but facing forward.

There's no way you're aiming either of those guns. Like, that was, the advertising on this movie has been straight up crazy. Yes. And I'm in. Use some of your Hollywood insider perspective to talk us through this, because I think

you heard us, we also were fascinated by the iterations of the title of this movie. Have you guys? Have you guys? Have I seen the skeleton? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, Jay... That's where I think it really gets real interesting. Yeah, because someone was like, it's not enough to have a skeleton draped in the American and Mexican flags, pointing guns in opposite directions. A lot of symbolism. But then we're going to have narrative within the... Between bones. Yeah. Between bone narrative.

Because they're like, you know what? People are going to want to walk up and look into the eye socket and... That's where they're going to see Benicio del Toro and Josh Brolin. And that's what's going to mean there is. Jason, you're a master improviser. So I want you to play along with me here. You are Josh Brolin. And they come to you and they're like, Josh,

we're so happy to have you back for Sicario 2 Day of the Soldata. Here's a quick note from us, just from marketing. We're not going to, we're not going to. I'm in the scene now, right? I mean, we're in the scene now. Yes, yes, yes. Sorry, so here I go. I'm like, wait, that's what we're calling it?

Yeah, so we did some market testing. Wait, hang on, hang on. Taylor sent me a script and it just said Sicario 2. What did you just say? Day of the Soldado. And that's the type of? Yeah, yeah, we mark tested. I see, it's just, it's a movie called Day of the Soldado.

No, no, no. It's called Sicario, colon, Day of the Soldado. Okay, yeah, no, I'm out. I'm out of this movie. Sorry, I don't know if you checked your contract. We have you signed up for nine more films. Wait, I mean, that's the thing. Oh, let me look at this.

Goinx, I'm in. Is it a seven-picture deal for all expanded universes? I can't talk about it because I don't want to give anything away about this movie. But one thing I, so, now, Josh, one thing about that, Dave the Soldado, we're not going to be using your visage on any of the promotional materials. Okay, cool. Okay, we're going to instead be using a skeleton draped in the American-Mexican flags, holding semi-automatic weapons in opposite directions,

and within the skeleton's eye sockets will be little bits from this movie. Okay. Is this a prank? Is this a prank? Are you pranking me? Do you think Brolin likes pranks? I feel like I listened to him on Marin for an hour and 20 minutes talking about poetry. I feel like that dude doesn't like pranks, you know? I suspect he hates pranks. Yeah, I don't think he's a big prank guy. Like, if you did bits with him on set.

I believe the Sicario set is a no-prank set. Because I believe, but he feels Del Toro, also not a prankster. Do you think that on the set, now Chris has interviewed the director of this sequel, so he might know better than I do, and Chris is also fluent in Italian, as I believe was necessary to interview the director. But do you think that on the set of a Sicario movie, one or two, they do the first take, you know, and they do it the director's way, the second take, maybe Brolin has thoughts,

and then the third take's just to goof around. Yeah, just to play. Oh, yeah, yeah. Let's open this one up. Let's do an improv take on this. Jesus Christ. That's true what we get. I'm so stoked for this movie.

It's beyond. All I want is to be in Sicario 3. That's like it right there. This does no longer seem implausible. You are just fresh off filming John Wick 3, right? So this is a new space for you. It is. It is very strange. No, I don't say action movies.

I just mean three quills. You could be in the third movies and series. That's when they're willing to let you in. I will now only be in the third of trilogy. That's my in my contract now. You should, I would also just add another layer there where you only work for guys who directed Gamora. It's a good look.

I would be very into that. By the way, I loved Gamora. Well, so speaking of your passion for Gamora, we are going to get into, when we hang up the phone, we're going to talk more about our abiding love for the first film and why, you know, we in no way expected there to be a sequel, we're very much anticipating it. But you were also a sin-iest.

Could you talk about your love for this movie? Can you explain? Oh, dear you call me that. I usually never call you that on the live mic, but I feel like the people should know. No, I'm like at Sicario 1, right? Yeah, the pre-day of the Soldada. Yeah.

Yeah. I thought that movie was just fan fucking-tastic. You know, and it helps that it's like a pulpy genre movie directed by a true, like, master, I feel like. I feel like Denny Boone is like one of the most exciting. Like between that and passengers. No, not passengers. Passengers was slightly less well-reviewed than arrival. Yeah.

Different. Sorry, not passengers. is prisoners, is what I'm referring to. Yes. The, the Denny Villanove movie prior to Sicario. He's got, like, he makes two incredible genre movies that are, that in other hands would have been, like, tacky and lame.

You know, like, like, a movie like Sicario or Princess comes out all the time every year. They're just, like, really tacky and, like, B-movie genre movies. But, like, when you put, like, somebody like, Denny Villanov and you put, like, an amazing writer. You've got like something that is super elevates of like a really great pulpy genre movie, but is also into it.

We agree with you totally, but I wonder if you were in the same place we were, which is I'm not going to say no to Morsecario, but I have to say the way that film ended was so definitive in many ways. And even after sitting through the credits and seeing the tag with Thanos in it, I didn't see the need necessarily for more story here.

I was very content with what I was. was given. Being like, oh, I bet they make another one of me. You know, I was like, that's a fucking rad movie. But when they said they were going to make another one, I'm like, yeah, why not? Because in my opinion, you can. I would be like, if they made Sicario 3, although I guess they couldn't now, but if Sicario 2 hadn't even had Josh Broan and...

There's nothing, I'm not spoiling anything by saying that there is definitely a possibility for a third one. I guess there's just... I'm sure. I'm just looking back, though, now, and sorry to heart. up on the marketing, but is there a moment in the first film that is Soldado unfriendly? You know, like, is there a moment when, like, the peacekeepers have their day in the first film? Like, the thought that that movie was not enough time for Soldados to have their

coming out party is fairly surprising to me because it's, it's Soldado heavy. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of Soldato on Soldado action in the first film, which I rewatch last night, and I'm going to keep mentioning that, that I did. No, I feel like this is where we're at. Like, now the first film was really just set up. Now it's their day of the Salgado. So who was the guy? Have you guys seen the second one?

I've seen it. Andy hasn't. Now, is the skeleton a character in the movie? No. They're saving him for the third one. He's kind of like James Franco and Spring Breakers. Like he just shows up in the background doing shots. By the way, I'm into that.

I'm like, if I would be 100% cool If they got into a real jam And then that skeleton showed up And just started like fucking wasting dudes I'd be like, I'm fucking on board for this Sient skeleton? Do you think, do we find out in the third movie That the skeleton was a character

From the first movie who died? Like that maybe... Oh, it's like John Bernthal comes back to life? Or we were the skeletons all along? Yeah, right. Is there some lesson here? I'm just, It's just a metaphor, man.

It's just one of those ones where the movie is going to be the movie, but it seems like they are running away from the fact that there were people like us who are great, we get it. We're into it. We don't need you to hide this under verbiage and colones and it dripped up and draped out skeleton. I'm assuming there's going to be some sort of ringer podcast that is looking at all the black box theories of what's going on in this movie, just like Westworld. Yes.

Yeah, we're going to figure out whether or not we've, this is all like the dream of a robot or not. A skeleton robot. Jason, maybe you can call in after you've seen the movie and you can give us your review. A hundred percent. All right, man. Thank you so much for dialing us up. Yeah, we miss you. We almost made it a whole half year without you, buddy.

I know. I don't like it. In the meantime, I'll just be here in my hotel room. We caught her. As one does. You paint a picture. All right. Talk to you later, man.

Thanks, buddy. Later, guys. Bye. All right, thanks to Jason and Andy. We're back. let's just wrap up the pod today by revisiting one of the touchstone films of this podcast. How dare you just wrap up the pod by talking about. I know. We're going to talk about Sicario.

I have nothing to do for the rest of the afternoon. Do you? I do. I have another podcast recorded four o'clock. Do you really? Yeah. Okay, that's a little bit of time. This movie was foundational for us and for our podcast. Sure. This movie, in retrospect, feels like it came out of nowhere. This movie, which I rewatched last night, felt at the time and continues to feel kind of like a miracle

because it is so artistic in its execution and so considered every step of the way from the casting choices to the performances to the smallest details to the score, incredible score by Johan Johansson who passed away earlier this year. I kind of can't believe it exists. And so one of the things that I wanted to revisit

it about it in the larger context is it's almost I think we've treated the announcement of the sequel with both with anticipation, no doubt, but also some degree of incredulity because it feels like taking something that existed from another time almost

and grabbing it and dragging it back into the context of contemporary movie making where this was somehow the birth of a franchise. Now you've seen the movie so and I believe without spoiling it you would attest that it is not, this does not feel like a cash grab in a lot of ways. I would say quite the contrary.

Good. It's a cash. They're throwing the cash into the coal mine. No, it's not that it's like, I wouldn't say that it's not like they're lighting money on fire. I just think that it removes one very essential component to the original Sicario. Let's talk about the original. Now, which is Emily Blunt, but is also a moral compass. I thought you meant just a guy whose main business in the movie is eating breakfast. Because shouts to Silvio's arc.

He's like, I'm hung over, I'm eating breakfast, I'm hung over a meeting breakfast, I'm hung over on a meeting breakfast, oopsie, that does it for my spinal column. I want to, I will say that watching it a second time brought out some flaws that I overlooked the first time and definitely some deeper questions of morality. Yeah. But it is the kind of thing where you watch it the first time

and it is possible to be dazzled by the craft and the direction and the artistic vision behind it. And the second time I'm like, oh, politically. I'm going to raise my hand here with a couple questions from the back of the class. What's the answer there? Oh, I don't know if there is an answer. What do you think you object to politically?

Just the simple act of turning a humanitarian crisis into an action movie? No, it's not that. In fact, let's put this at the end. Okay. Because I don't think it's relevant. In fact, I think one of the hallmarks of this podcast and some of the things that interest us,

and we've talked about this before back in the Hollywood Perspectus days too, is something that we love in books and in films is when it is just, it's pure you know, there's a pure adrenaline aspect of this movie. When we would read it in Pelicanos books, I believe you coined the phrase dog crunch.

I think you coined that phrase. Well, we coined it right at each other to describe a certain kind of just relentlessness and almost borderline absurdity in either the bleakness or the violence or the level of aggression. James Crumley particularly good at that stuff too. Particularly good at dog crunching.

There's a whole bunch of movies that we love and championed on this podcast, zero dark 30 being another one. where you can have the argument about the intent behind the art or the politics behind the art. But I want to have that conversation after I'm done talking about what an artistic marvel it is. Sure.

So put that away. Here's the other thing I took away from this film, watching it again, was I am dazzled by the casting and by the specificity of each moment. Now, some of that credit goes to the Taylor Sheridan script, because if there is a script where an unknown character in a beige suit sleeping on a Learjet says, you're asking how a watch works.

I just need you to know how to tell time. I love the movie. Sorry, guilty. I love the movie. But to take it to a larger extreme, there's the details of Brolin wearing flip-flops. Sure. Of casting stage actor Victor Garber as an FBI field director or whatever he was.

Just the look of the Navy SEAL dude or the Delta guy at the end who's bald with a beard. He looks like Will Oldham got swole. Swoldham. Will swold him? Daniel Kaluya's performance coming way before we knew what to look for with him in Get Out is a marvel

in miniature in the background. Yeah, even having Bernthal in one of the most disturbing scenes in the movie be just kind of coming out of nowhere and he had been in a bunch of stuff at that point. Walking Dead for sure. Yeah, so that was,

you go back to that movie and it's just an incredible crime film. It's an incredible crime film and borders on a war movie. I would say that the new one is a war movie that borders on a western. Interesting. And I think it'll be a really interesting conversation

to have after the fact about the differences because I think that in some ways, the second one in terms of its set pieces and in terms of the leanness of the story is equal to, if not superior, to Sakario. Interesting. But the issues that you're flagging about what it says about you

or what it says about the movie to make mass entertainment out of the material that it's using and out of the subject matter that it's based on is triply volatile. Yeah, because I would say, I mean, there's the big ticket concern that a bunch of people expressed, including the mayor of Juarez,

which is basically saying aspects of this story and obviously the cruelty and horror of the drug war and of drug dealers and of cartels, all of that is legitimate. But Juarez, in 20, when the movie come out, 15? And today, it is not a day of Soldados. It is not a nonstop war zone where if you stand on the roof, you see explosions and gunshots all the time. But he's taking things that are true and forming them into something that is emotionally or spiritually true or relevant.

And so I don't have any problem with that. I think the thing that surprised me the most, the second viewing was how wildly passive Emily Blunt's character is and how she is just abused. basically through the course of the movie. Sure. Physically and emotionally. Physically and emotionally, she actually adds nothing. She doesn't have a skill that they recruit her for. And I'd almost forgotten the twist at the end where they realized that they only took her because they needed her there.

She realizes, because Berlin's like, we only brought you along because we needed you as a procedural effort. Yeah. In order to be legal, you needed to be present. Yeah. That's literally all we care about. Yeah. To operate domestically, we needed an FBI agent.

And that just, the complete negation. of her is fascinating, and it's particularly fascinating when you consider what you just said, which is that in a way, she is the viewer. We also, at times in that first movie, feel, have mixed feelings, let's put it, by what we're seeing, feel traumatized or beat up by what we're seeing, and then at the end, we are just, our concerns are literally left behind as we follow Benetio del Torres' character off on his own particular hunting mission. Sure, and I think that the question that often comes up with this movie is that whether or not your amusement at certain aspects of characters,

like whether or not you find the Matt character to be... That's Berlin. Yeah, whether you find him to be charming in some ways or at least engaging. Yeah. Necessarily means that you're co-signing his behavior. Right. And that, that to me, is like a crucial distinction. They weigh that...

You can tell that this movie, aside from the fact that Villeneuve is obviously, like, an absolute... Like, in terms of his technical proficiency is just almost in a class by himself right now in terms of how good he is. He's drawing a lot from Ridley Scott. He's drawing a lot from Stanley Kubrick.

He's drawing a lot from various sources. But ultimately, his mastery of composition, of mixing sound and light, and all these things that you need to be in charge of as a director and editing and the ability to orchestrate these moments is almost second and none right now. If you ask me in movies, if you look at a rival, if you look at prisoners, if you look at Sicario, there's even parts of Blade Runner that I think are absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning. Oh, I agree.

I loved the experience of that movie, and thus, I don't know why I'm couching it. I like the movie because of what he brought to it. Yeah, I mean, fucking love the movie. I love, I love, I love Sakaria. No, no, I love Sikari. Yeah, and I'm not walking that back. I just found it, I found it interesting to see, and I don't know what to do with this opinion, but because honestly, one of the things I do love about movies,

everyone listening at home says, you don't love movies. But one of the things, when I attempt to see movies that I do love, is the immediacy of the experience. You unpack it later, you figured out, but that the intensity of that... It's an assault on the census. And the intensity of that first viewing defines your experience

and it's very possible, in fact, common that you might not have gotten it, whatever it may be. Right. And so... There also might not be an it there. That's the thing. And so what he did is the movie.

It's not trickery. The incredible composition and execution of that border rate, which is astonishing. Yeah, it's up there in, like, heat in terms of set pieces. It is just the way he cuts from her eyes to the side of the road.

road and then they see the people trailing them in between the buildings as they roll. Everything about that is just outrageous. And all of those pieces that I'm saying, those aren't separate pieces. Those are part of the larger experience, which is what makes the viewing of that movie so incredible and transporting and punishing. Sometimes I think it is, to some extent, an admiration for just how wrong that movie could have gone. And just how poorly that, like, just how bad that movie could be.

the broling character is a very good example of the way that he delivers his dialogue pretty much up until the final moments of the movie where I think they try to force a couple of messages and morals in and it is a movie that I think is weighed down a little bit by some of the samurai philosophy stuff that happens in it

the way that he says in the beginning of the film when they're first recruiting Kate and she says what are you going to do and he says, we're going to dramatically overreact. And the way that he delivers that is so specific, it's such a choice, the way that he makes Matt seem like this tired, but all-seeing eye who already knows how this is all just theater.

And they're constructing this fake world that they're going to basically like engage in this ultra-violent, bloody thing with conflict with consequences to get a result that people may not want to know what it takes to get that kind of result. I will be fascinated to talk to you because it'll be a real test about what a movie like this has to do to be acceptable. Morally acceptable.

And Gomorrah is a great example of it because the director of the TV show Gomorra... Stefano Salimilema, yes. An Italian filmmaker, he made the Netflix series Subura, is that right? And so Subura is an example of something and this is a divide that we often come back to. I read the book, and the book is gnarly. I mean, the things that happen in the book

are unspeakable on a family podcast, let alone our podcast. And yet, in a book, for whatever reason, I have that remove. Sometimes when I see those things, as we've discussed in various films over the years, when you see them on the screen, you feel complicit sometimes,

and it's challenging in a way. And I think looming over all of this is the tenor that we bring to talking about Sicario in general, truly from our heart with great joy that we just did with Zooks, which is we love this movie. It gets us excited, but it's a weird movie to love and be excited about

because there aren't moments in there. This isn't the counselor, you know what I mean? Yeah. This isn't a movie that is... No, it's not avant-garde. It's not a high-five. It's hyper-realism. They're really trying to make an elite,

high, high-level action movie out of one of the most fucked up things happening on the planet. And it doesn't give you an out. It doesn't give you a moment. And, you know, again, that's another thing about rewatching it. You would think that, and this is a sign of the expertise of the first movie, I think. In less skilled hands, the Kate character, Emily Blunt's character, would be an audience

surrogate in all ways and react broadly or with surprise or maybe fumble with her gun or be whatever. And she is, you know, up to this point in her life, appears to be an incredibly competent a crime fighter, basically. A relentless one, too, at the expense of her personal life. She's just sort of like, I can't really maintain having a personal life with the amount that I've invested in this job. And yet even, yet she reaches a point where she can't run with those wolves. And apparently what you're suggesting is that the movies have taken a similar attack.

They've shed that character. And now we the audience are forced to run with a wolves. Yes. I don't do well with wildlife. I know. You worried about me? Chris has been looking at me in a very... I'm excited to talk about it.

I think that it is, it brings up so many, first of all, if it isn't clear already, I think David de Saldado is an amazing movie in a lot of ways. But it is going to bring up a lot of conversations about what is fodder for entertainment? What is fodder for this? And if it doesn't have something constructive or meaningful to say about the border crisis, is it okay to use the border crisis as the canvas? for this clash. Well, that's my question about the first one. And I don't know, I don't have an answer for that. I don't, I don't know when is an okay.

And that's the, it's the same conversation we had about Zero Dark 30. If Zero Dark 30 is essentially bullshit, is it okay and it's still an amazing movie? Yes. And I think, I think in my head, in my brain, my answer is yes. And I think we made that argument on the podcast before. But it's challenging. And it's particularly challenging when, one feel, when it feels more fraught than ever, you know,

regardless of the role of cartels or whatever, regardless of whether there even is a crisis, we are all talking about the border between the United States and Mexico. We are thinking about it. And here comes this movie with a very specific story to tell about it at this moment. So that may also affect our watching it. I'll be curious to see what you say. So we'll do, Monday we'll do Soldado.

We'll talk about that. I'd like to talk about succession if possible. Yeah. We can table that for Thursday if you want. if we wind up having too much Soldata to talk about. But yeah, I'll be on Monday. And then I think I actually will be on next Thursday. I'm not going to, I'm going to Vegas for Summer League next Friday.

All right. You were a great lucky rabbits foot last year at Vegas with your Markle Fultz game. So I'm thrilled. Everything worked out. Thanks to Zach Mack for producing. If you want more Soldato stuff, check out the big picture, Sean Fennesse's podcast. I appeared on that. Talk to him a little bit about Sicario and Day of the Soldado.

And then we interviewed Day of the Soldato. the Soldato director, Stefano Salima. It was really cool chat. He's a very interesting guy. Check out the movie and join us on Monday. Take care of each other out there, Baranskis. Today's episode of the watch was brought to you by Oras and Alps. Did you know that roughly 60% of what you put on your skin is absorbed?

Anti-perspirin is full of harmful chemicals that have been linked to numerous health problems. Ors and Alps aluminum-free deodorant is a natural deodorant that actually works. This powerful deodorant uses cornstarch to absorb sweat and notes of cedarwood and fresh greens to mask odor. head to OA Skincare, that's the letter O, then the letter A, skincare.com, and get 15% off your purchase to have any Oars and Alps products, including their natural deodorant when you use the code, watch.