The Watch - HBO CEO Casey Bloys on How the Network Has Adapted in the Streaming Era

Episode Date: February 3, 2023

Chris and Andy are joined by the chairman and CEO of HBO and HBO Max content, Casey Bloys, to talk about how programming for the network has changed since they shifted more squarely into streaming (5:15), the changes the network has been through since merging with Warner Bros. (33:05), and how the success of shows like ‘House of the Dragon’ has informed what HBO wants to do going forward (54:16). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Casey Bloys Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, my number one Blois boy, it's Andy Greenwald! I thought you were going to say you were the brave and I was the bold.

Oh yeah, we could have done that too. Andy, it's a beautiful Thursday in Los Angeles. We're here in the studio with producer Kaya. And we're about to be joined by among the most special guests we've ever had. I think so. We're going to be joined by Casey Blois, who is the CEO and chairman of HBO and HBO Max content. I guess you could say he runs HBO. We have said that.

And we have a lot of questions for him. Most of them are about Dunkin Egg, and when we're getting that, you know, and he's got some deep DCU questions for him. I think that we're going to talk to. Casey, about the state of television, which is a passion project for us. And we're so excited that he finally agreed to join us after many requests. Well, we also like it. And this will come up in our conversation, I'm sure. We welcome feedback.

We love it. Yeah. And there are certain people within the... the industry who are very, very generous with their feedback. And then they're ones who are willing to take the next step and jump from email to stewed. Yeah. And Casey's coming in. So we're very excited. Are you down to meet IRL? I'm excited. Yeah. You up was I think the text that started this. So we're very excited for the opportunity to talk about all this. I'm talking to you, guy who's really inside the Mandalorian suit. When are you going to come down? Take off the mask, you coward.

No, we're really excited to talk to Casey. Is there anything you wanted to go over before we get into our chat with him? Like ground rules? No, like, I mean, I suppose like news and notes, but we could kick all that to the Monday pie when we do last of us. That's the thing. I think that we thought that there would be a couple little like sprinklings, some crumbs to talk about now as we await Casey's arrival.

And then there was kind of a lot. And specifically, I just need, I need a lot of time at a weekend to process the rebranding of Showtime as Paramount Plus, with Showtime, which can only be said in the movie phone voice, which is a catastrophic branding, I think, on the level of the Zoom. I don't know. I'm trying to think of this, of a comparison for this. I'm really... I'm going to tell you something. We've been doing this podcast for almost 12 years or something. A lot, well, long time, like 11 years. 11 years. And especially in the last five years, we've been like, this is such a bad name for a streaming service. They'll never recover from it.

And they usually do. True. I don't understand why. I guess, why not just roll showtime into Paramount Plus? Rip the band-aid off. Yes. Look, no, we're saving this for Monday. We're going to go through options,

and we're going to end up. We're going to fix this for them. Okay. Because, look, Bob Bakish, he emails, he WhatsApps, constantly with tears in his eyes saying, guys, please. No, we've never heard from that, Bob. Or any Bob, really.

But we'll talk about that on Monday. Also, big Jim Gunn opened up the bag. Yeah. And talked about all the DCU stuff. And I thought it was pretty interesting. Yeah, I thought that was a fascinating development just to see him lay that out in a very transparent, candid way. Talked about some of the mistakes that have been made over the course of the last few years with DC. And really, like, I think in a pretty typical Jim Gun fashion, like, even though there are the quote unquote diamond characters of Batman and Wonder Woman who are.

The Trinity. Somewhat involved. It's not what I thought it was going to be. I agree with that. I think it seems broadly very, very smart, but it also was striking, and I say this as established not a DC fan boy. I thought it was striking what it felt like just as a fan and consumer of the industry to have an adult at a podium explaining a plan.

Because we've talked our way. We've talked in full flash-like circles around this decade-long strategy. of you have a Batman and you have a Batman. How many jokers would you like? In ways that it made sense as a non-marvel strategy and got Oscar nominations, but also in ways that it just was very bizarre and seemed increasingly chaotic.

And to have someone up there being like, this is what we're doing, these are the stories that are connected, these are the ones that aren't, and here are the rules for that going forward. It's what they paid for. It's what they wanted him to do more than almost anything else.

So that's all Monday, along with a chat about The Last of Us. Let's get into our conversation with Casey Bloyes. We're so honored. I'm honored to be here. Thank you for having me. Casey Blase is here. We're going to talk about everything,

HBO and everything, sort of the state of TV. You don't do a ton of state of the union stuff. Some of your contemporaries, John Langraf, does kind of a state of the union address. You sort of shy away from that. In general, I tend to like the work to speak for itself and, you know, nobody needs to hear my opinion.

But as you guys know, I am a fan of this podcast. And if I may, give you some compliments before we start. One of the reasons why I like it is I feel that you guys talk about television as fans, even when you sometimes mistakenly don't like one of our shows. I don't remember when that's ever happened. But you still talk about it in a way that is constructive and not snarky and kind of understanding what a creator may have been going for but didn't achieve or whatever. And I think that is somewhat rare and I appreciate it. So I think your analyses are really good sometimes on shows that I have developed.

Yes. You will talk about shows. I think I've told you this. You'll talk about shows in a way where I'm like, yeah. Yeah, that's what we're going for for sure. For sure. Thematically, it's about this. And I'll go, yeah, yeah, okay, all right. But I mean, the way you talk about it, the way you analyze it, I very much appreciate it. So I like listening to it. As I said, regardless of whether you like the show or not, I like hearing the analysis.

Well, we appreciate it. And we appreciate your role as Ombudsman of the podcast. Yes. Which we get the feedback when we like the shows, and we get the feedback when we don't like the shows, which is also welcome. Casey, I think for our listeners who have heard your name mentioned a lot on this podcast, know who you are broadly speaking, it would be kind of interesting, and honestly, it would be interesting for both of us. What do you do? Like, what's your garden variety day as chairman's CEO? So, I would say generally speaking, it's about 50% creative, and I'll get into what that means, and then 50% business to kind of be very general about it. But the creative part of it is literally just me call I will start my day calling Frannie, who's our head of drama, Amy, who's

the head of comedy, Sarah Aubrey, who's the head of Max Originals, Neer Rosenstein, who's in New York, who does our late night and talk shows and specials and Nancy and Lisa. And I will call them, say, what's going on? What are we dealing with? I spend a lot of time with Franny because that's where a lot of our money gets spent. The dramas are. tend to be very big. And so we're usually dealing with a lot. And a lot of times it's problem solving. When it comes to me, I'm basically all of those people I'm trying to help them solve problems. So we'll troubleshoot. They'll say, what would you do in the situation? We'll kind of talk it out, basically. So I also still read scripts, not all scripts, but I still read scripts.

I still watch cuts and talk about with the various teams, you know, what did you guys think, what did I think? So that's the creative aspect of it. I can't at this point, you know, like when I was head of comedy, I would read scripts, I would read them again, I would think about it, I would write notes and really think deeply about it. At this point, I can read a script and kind of say, top line, here's what I thought, but I always tell everybody, just take it with a grain of salt because I have not been able to read deeply, depending on the show. So that's the creative aspect of it. The other half of it is kind of the business, the finance, budget, the kind of mechanics, I guess, if you will, of streaming, the data, the marketing, the marketing, the kind of everything that goes with that.

So creative and business. And it's been interesting, you know, I was an economics major. and then I've been a creative executive for so long. I have not really used that side of my brain for a while. So it's been interesting, especially since kind of overseeing Max. And also when I got the head of HBO job, there's a lot more finance and that goes with that. So, you know, using that half of my brain has been interesting. Sometimes I will say, just explain that to me again, you know, like I have to kind of slow down and like I'm speaking other lines.

Just explain it to me. Like I kind of get it, but I don't get it. So just, you know, so it's been. interesting thinking in those two ways. I have a question on both sides of that, both sides of your morning. So on the creative side of it... That's the whole day. Oh, I saw it, and then lunch.

Three hours long. Basically, that's the context. During the creative conversations, is there something, the things that come across your transom, do you feel like they are generally problems that are bubbling up in order, that have to be problems to reach you? Or are there things that, because of your roots on that side of the ball within the company, where they say, well, Casey's got a good read on this. Casey has experience.

Like story mechanics kind of thing. Yeah, I would say both. One of the things, I would say in the creative side of it, one of the things that I think is important in my job is if you're in the drama group or the comedy group or the docs group, you're busy working on your individual shows, as you should be. But one of the things that I started doing, I guess I've been in this job, eight years, seven years? I don't, I don't even remember.

2016 is when I got promoted. One of the things I think was really important that I didn't necessarily have the benefit of, and I find very helpful, and I think it's partly my, something that, you know, a leader should do is I, I have grids all the time, you know, grids of 23, 24, 25, 26. With, you know, we lay out what we think we have, what we think is coming down, what we think might, be good, what we think, you know, we're constantly updating it. This isn't real. This could be real. Let's take this seriously. Let's get rid of this one. It didn't come out. So that's kind of a constantly evolving thing. Everybody kind of makes fun of my grids because they're on my desk.

I'm always looking at them. I'm always thinking about them. But I think part of what I need to do for them is if you're working on a show, you need to know how that fits into the larger slate. I'm very into thinking about this as a slate, not just individual shows. So I'll just try to have people focus on that with me. So, you know, with the drama group, besides talking about like what's going on in individual shows, we'll take, we'll take some time to say, here's what the next few years are looking like. What do we think? What do we have? What do we not have? And I think that's kind of on me to make everybody think about the slate, think about the future, because they are, you know, focused on on the shows. Yeah. Right? And so that's,

That brings up a lot of creative, you know, if we're thinking about like what 25 is going to look like, when are we getting the script? How real is it? How do you feel about it? Another thing that happens is, you know, a script will come in much more promising than we had thoughts or, you know, and then it's like, well, we need to take that seriously. So another question is, or if a package comes in, if you want to do that one, what are we knocking out? Yeah. You know, so those conversations, I think, are really healthy. I think they're very helpful. So we do a lot of that, a lot of that kind of, what are the next few years going to look like? So that part is a constant, there's a constant sense of anxiety, you know, about like, because you're dealing with unknowns, you're dealing with the future. Who knows? You know, we were just talking about, with the drama group, we were just talking about 2025.

And we're like, oh, God, what are we, you know, what's going to be there? And I said, I think we do this every year. You know, everything's going to be terrible. What are we going to do? So, you know, maybe some anxiety is helpful. I don't know. I had a question about the grids. Yes.

As you mentioned, you've been doing this. Old school linear grids. But I mean, I still think of HBO in a lot of ways as a place that keeps the candle of burning of, of, like, this idea that on a Sunday. And you've had this run of Sundays pretty much over the last six months with Dragon, White Lotus, now last of us, where everybody that I think we know. and people in our lives are like, yep, fired that up on Sunday night. But you're also thinking about this very opaque thing called HBO Max that some people have on their Apple TV and some people are insatiable when it comes to looking for stuff. So how much has it changed to not only think about the grid going out to 2025 on largely Sunday nights,

but sometimes Mondays or whatever, but also think about what needs to go into recently added. I have one big grid. the HBO Sunday grid. But remember, we have got Friday night shows, some Monday shows occasionally, and I have a Max grid, also with dramas and comedy. So I kind of look at the entire, as I said, the entire slate. Obviously, the Sunday night HBO focus is one where I started and is still, you know, something we really think about because I think that does define us to some extent. But, you know, One of the things about Max is it's another piece of the puzzle that I'm able to play with. And again, I think about the entire offering.

So I drive everybody crazy with my slates and, you know, what options do we have? And what is it looking like? So I think we both have a lot of questions about the role that streaming has played in your job and in your day-to-day and how that's changed. Because you referred to getting the big chair in 2016, but I believe you've been at the company since 2004. Four is that right? So you've seen a lot of changes. But before we get into the more recent changes, I did want to touch on something you just alluded to, which is that you still believe in a certain old school that there's value in this idea of HBO,

I mean, quite frankly, meaning something. And this is something that we've been talking about. You've probably heard us do this almost abstractly, that there is brand recognition and there's value in being the place where these shows are curated or chosen or part of a larger chain of shows. And that's something that I think we've started to lose. in streaming. Can you talk about what that means to you, especially as you are the steward of that brand in a very changed marketplace? I actually think it's, especially in streaming and especially

in a crowded marketplace, having worked at HBO for so long, remember HBO is a subscription business, started as a subscription business. So we've been asking people to pay for HBO for 50 years. Yeah. You know, so one of the things we kind of in our DNA think about is, is this worth it? And that, you can answer that a lot of different ways. Does it feel special? Does it push the envelope in some way? Have you not seen it before? Is it, you know, is the scope cinematic? And the answer can be all of that, some of that, you know, but we're constantly asking that. And I think the other thing where it's helpful specifically with the HBO brand is when you're developing, it's, I don't think any of us take lightly that we've built, when I say we, I mean HBO, we've built this brand that means something. So if you put something out, people will say, well, it's HBO, I'm going to check it out. That's not something you can take lightly or go, well, let's see how it goes. We really think about it. You don't want. to let viewers down. Now, that doesn't mean every show we put out is going to be for you,

but the hope is at least you could see why someone wanted to try it, you know? And so when you're developing and thinking about the future, that is a muscle that we have been exercising for a long time, thinking what makes it special, what makes it different, what makes it stand out. So, if you've got something to shoot for, you know, if you've got a brand and it means something, and you're constantly trying to shoot for that like a North Star, I think that can be helpful when you're developing. But I think on the flip side of that, so I think we're speaking about what the brand,

the value of the brand in the audience's mind, and I think that it does still matter a lot, and as Chris was saying, people tune in to see what you've got on Sunday nights. That's a tradition like no other. What does it mean inside the building? Meaning in terms of a development process that may have some vestigial bones of people

who greenlit the Sopranos, who, you know, Is the decision making similar in your mind to the one you entered into? Yes, I will say even through, you know, when we were doing HBO Go or now and through streaming and everything, I am a believer that a good show is a good show is a good show. I don't think about, I don't try to ask writers to think about, well, if this is going to be on streaming, let's think about it this way. It's hard enough to do a good show, so I would rather that the writer just think about what's a good show. And part of this is informed by before I got to HBO, I worked one of my first jobs, I was an assistant at CBS. And they used to make, in the half hour in the sitcoms, they used to make, I can't remember, maybe it was three act breaks or four acts, something crazy.

Yeah. And they would make them right out to each act break. So that was forcing a writer to do something to fit where we're essentially commercial needs, you know, to, to keep people coming back was the idea. And I just thought that was a really kind of a dumb thing to do. And in the time I've been at HBO, I don't think we've ever discussed what the release pattern was going to be or, you know, what would this look like if it was,

if someone kind of stored up all the episodes and watched them all at once or if they did it weekly, I just go back to a good show, it was a good show, a good show, and it'll find the audience. But there's also a trust element in that as well. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I have a recollection of you saying this to us once, not in front of microphones, about that you will give the note and you give it with intention and you give it because it's your opinion about something, but that the writer. Oh, yeah, that is the deal. That is the deal that I feel we make when you come to HBO or Max. Part of what I'm trying to do at Max is, you know, basically any, this is my development philosophy regardless.

is, and I also informed by working at a network where I would see notes on a sitcom about, you know, I didn't like the color of the paint in the living room. So they would repan, I mean, just a waste of time and energy. But the deal you make when you come to HBO is we're going to tell you what we think in a hopefully very respectful and very constructive way. And you may agree, you may disagree. we can talk about it. Ultimately, it's up to them. And there's been many times when we come to a place where a writer says, I don't agree, this is what I'm going to do. It's their show. And that's what we have to kind of,

you have to be comfortable with that. And I would say ultimately, you know, I've done it enough now that I've seen 50% of the time we're right to push. 50% of the time they're right to say, you know, that doesn't make sense. So do you have a favorite example of one time you were wrong? Probably more than I I probably remember more of the times I was right. You can say one of those too. No, no, no, no. Well, you know what, I'll tell you one recently, and I think Craig would not mind me telling you this

because, you know, I think he's talked about it on podcast. On The Last of Us, you know, the pilot was originally two episodes, and it used to end where he threw the body of the boy and the five. And that was the end of the pilot. Great stuff. And I was kind of like, you know, I'm not sure that that's where you want to end. And the pilot.

And part of it was because if you play the game, it was, he would throw the body and you would see Ellie in the window. And if you knew the game, you go, oh. And now he's going to meet her. But the conversation was, that's not necessarily setting up what the series will be. And I will say it was a very good, you know, it was a very good kind of back and forth with Craig. And I think he understood where we were coming from. and that's one where he said,

I think you might have been right. But like I said, about 50-50. But Craig's whole thing is throwing bodies. That's right. He's like, this is just a Tuesday. But part of it, you know, sometimes I get asked a lot, you know, what do you look for in a pit? When someone comes in and they put something,

you know, what are you looking for? I'm looking for somebody who knows the world so well that whatever we push on, they will say, well, that doesn't make sense because of this or they wouldn't do that because of that or that's not, you know, thematically, that doesn't make sense and here's why. Craig is a great example of that. And Neil, obviously Neil created the game. So he has a very particular point of view. Craig knows this world. So there's no conversation you can have with Craig where he doesn't say,

well, that wouldn't make sense because of this, but what about that? And I'm looking for somebody who knows the world inside and out. Yeah. And a lot of people will come in. I don't sit in as many pitches as I used to. So this is kind of like a more general statement. But people would come in and pitch a pilot story, right? But what we're usually looking at, you're not pitching a pilot. You're pitching a world. So you kind of want to know what is it about thematically? Why do they want to do it? What drew them to it? What is the show about? What are the dynamics? And you get in the pilot story. But I want to know that they know that world. fill it out.

You brought up The Last of Us, and I thought maybe this would be a way to pitch a sort of grand theory of where HBO and television is at, and we can kind of break into a larger discussion. This is news to all of us. You know, you've obviously, you're coming off the tail of, you're in the midst of what will be a really nice hot streak here, obviously, with House of the Dragon, White Lotus, Last of Us, Successions. You know that I feel that if you say that out loud, it ends. So I knock on wood a lot of very superstitious. I mean... So, yes. So thank you.

This is the beginning of the end, so let's have fun. Those shows are very different, but they all feel very eventized, right? Like, even White Lotus, which is a continuation to some extent on some of the ideas or, you know, the dynamics that Mike started in season one has become in and of itself now. I can kind of already start imagining, like, the fake casting rumors and, like, fantasy casting rumors for season three. I was curious whether you felt like these three shows leading into succession, which is going into its fourth season, Signal SC changed at all. Maybe not for HBO, but for TV in general,

where the most successful shows or perhaps the shows that really get greenlit are these big events, somewhat limited series. You know, Last of Us is projected to be about two seasons. I think they've said three. Have they changed it to three? I believe, I believe Craig and Neil feel like the second game, take two. I don't, you know, and that will... They saw the ratings. I'm not exactly sure, but anyway. But I guess my larger question is, do you think that we'll ever see another succession?

Once that's over, it's five-season, six-season run, whatever it winds up being, where you have a long-running drama in HBO that sort of takes up the better part of a decade and has develops a relationship with viewers like that? I would certainly like that. I think part of it is what I follow the creator's leads, you know, what they want to do. The reason I had any interest in Last of Us at all was because that's what Craig wanted to do. I'm not a video game. I've never even seen a PlayStation, let alone play a game. The only reason is Craig wanted to do it, so I take his lead.

So if there was a creator who, who had a story to tell for that long, of course I would want to do it. I actually think there's nothing to stop Mike White to have that go multiple seasons. Obviously, that's not an ongoing, or there's some ongoing narratives. But I would like to see it. You know, I don't think it's off the table at all. I wonder if your theory is partly, you know, House the Dragon, Last of Us are IP base. And I would point out that Succession and White Lotus are.

or not. So it can happen in either way. I guess the question I have on top of that is, do you consider when you're looking at 24, 25, 26, do you, are you in the Zag business? Are you like, this is what we don't have anymore and audiences want it? So how can we, how can we feed that? To some, I mean, what you have to balance is, what do we think is good. That's the, that's always what's coming in the door, right? What's coming in the door. But that's part that what I was talking about before, where I feel like part of my job is making everybody kind of think about the slate. We do have those conversations.

You know, do we have too many genre shows? Do we have not enough ongoing shows? Too many limits? You know, you're always juggling that, you know, the diversity kind of in all sense of the word versus what do we think is good. So it's always a balancing act and you're always kind of reacting to what's coming in the door. I was also wondering whether or not the kinds of pitches you're getting and the

things that you're hearing from the creative side of making television, those people are like, I'm more interested in working for two years on this show. There is a little, I will say, there is a little bit of that. You know, I think, as I said, I follow the creator's lead. So that's some of it. I don't know if you guys have talked about this before, but there also is one of the, I know people have discussed this and I think there's something to it with the demise of basically network television and the 22.

24 or 26 episodes a year, there's not a lot of writers left who grew up in that business, and that's where you really learned to tell an ongoing story. One of the reasons that's gone, that is one of the, I mean, we were doing that kind of before because HBO's business needs, you know, we were selling subscriptions as opposed to advertising. And so part of the reason why you needed 24 episodes. episodes was, you know, you were selling ads. And so, you know, this is now a response that

there are so many shows, there's some sense that, you know, eight to ten episodes are easier for viewers to kind of get into and not commit to an entire season. But also, it is, I think, a lot of writers haven't grown up in that system and don't know how to do it, you know. I think certainly for a series length, but I do think, to Chris's point, like I always find it very interesting that Succession is now cleaning up at the Emmys every year as it deserves to. I mean, I think it probably is the best show on TV. But I also feel like when the voters look at the list of potential drama nominees, they're like, that's a show. That's still, that's my stories.

Those are my people. Yeah. And they get into hijinks and they get shenanigans and who's going to win. and then it comes back. Yeah. And I think that relationship is still really valuable and certainly was historically important

to the building of HBO's brand. Absolutely. Yeah. And we've got to get back to it. Let's do it. Well, I've just added a season to last... That's right. Should we get Craig in here?

He's waiting outside. So I did want to get into some of the... We have some specific questions about Last of Us and about some of the other shows that we've mentioned already, but I did want to get into some of the business stuff. So pretend this is your afternoon.

You've just come back for lunch. Yes. a 15-minute salad. A rollicking afternoon to ivy, and now here you are. So you've been through some corporate changes in the last few years. HBO Max as an original business was originally, HBO Max's business in original content was when it started, was not under your purview.

And in terms of the way we covered it on the podcast, we felt there was some confusion in terms of, I don't want to use the word dilution of the brand, but what belongs to what? And it ended up with a circumstance that we, we've talked about as well, where absolute, like, elite-tier shows like Station 11 and HACS, to me, those are HBO shows. They happen to be on HBO Max.

They live on the same streaming service. When Max was put under your control, what were your thoughts about the potential confusion and what it ought to be going forward? Well, I think part of the confusion was, first, let me say, I kind of feel very fortunate to end up with Station 11 and Hacks. So regardless of brand confusion, whatever, it's always a good thing to have, you know, high-quality shows. And, you know, both those shows did well at the Emmys. Hax continues to do well at the Emmy.

So I'm not complaining. But I think part of the confusion was because the Max Originals were not under the purview of someone from HBO. I think you had some kind of basically HBO adjacent, you know, people who hadn't worked at HBO and maybe wanted to do shows like that. The point of having HBO is a part of a streaming service, but part of a larger streaming service, and we can get into the cable bundle and instomize and what that all means. But the idea is to do things that are not necessarily for HBO. I think good examples of that.

Sarah and Joey and the team did Flight Attendant, which to me was a very popular, very broad, really well-done show. peacemaker, which we did with James and Peter, had a great experience with them. HBO's, I guess Watchman was in the DC universe. It was not necessarily what I think of as a DC show.

So those two shows, I think, and Sex Lives College Girls, I would also say, those kinds of shows, not necessarily something you'd see on HBO, but still really well done, maybe a little bit broader. And what we're trying to do is, I think there's a being part of Warner Brothers Discovery, you know, there's a lot of IP you can use at Warner Brothers, specifically DC stuff. There's another show we're going to announce. We haven't announced it soon. But another kind of high profile, not DC and.

Is this the long talk to about Dream On reboot? No, Candy and I haven't asked for. But still dreaming. Come in this fall. I think we can kind of do some more tent-pull-y shows with the Max originals that you wouldn't necessarily see on HBO. Like the Penguin show that you guys are doing. That's a Max show. And we understand that that's different. Yeah, that's a good example, thank you.

There's another one I'm thinking of that we haven't announced. But when we announce it, you'll go, oh, that's what he was called out. When Colin Farrell is on HBO, he's only playing Ray Velcora. Exactly. That's it. If he's on Max, he can do whatever he wants. That's the difference. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

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Download the Priceline app or visitpriceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. It's Mushrooms with me, Maddie Matheson. You know what's better than thinking about dinner too hard? Not. Stop that. And just choose mushrooms. Five minutes. Done.

Dinner's that easy and you feel like a genius. It's not magic. It's mushrooms. Stop stressing at mushroomcouncil.com. Okay, so that was one of the big changes. The other big change in the last year was the Discovery merger or sale. David Zazlov comes in and there's a lot of talk. There's a lot of chatter.

one of the first things that he does that we're aware of is announced that you've signed a new contract and you'll be staying. Yes. We were fans of that move, as imagine you and your household was as well. Other things that have been announced or have been credited to him have been more contentious. The cancellations of things, the ungreen lighting of things, the Batgirl, et cetera, et cetera. These events have a trickle-down effect, you know, where people are like, oh, is this a culture of cost-cutting or a culture of fear? has that, it's everywhere in the industry at the moment for a variety of reasons, but has that feeling come into HBO, a place that was looked at as sort of an ivory tower apart from that. No. Well, go ahead.

So that's the, I mean, there's a lot buried into this half question. I guess I'm curious your impression of my reportage here and how it's played out for you and your team. Well, there was a couple things I would say to that. One, anytime you go through a merger like this, and I've been through several now, you know, we are. a network, a programming service, and there are things we do day-to-day, like cancel shows, pick shows up, you know, shows don't move forward, and what you end up getting, you know, the idea that David Zaslov is personally canceling shows, which is just not the case, but I think it's just kind of an easy thing for the press to go, oh my God, he's doing this, he's done that. How could he not, you know, renew the show? Which is just not the case. But I think the larger issue is not necessarily David or Warner Brothers Discovery came in and did this stuff. What I think is more at the heart of this is,

I don't know what you guys referred to the Netflix correction or the great streaming, whatever it is. But that kind of, that Wall Street event where all of a sudden, I think they lost subscribers, the subscribers, whatever it was, that was really the size. seismic shift because for 10 years before that, it was Wall Street cheering on streaming, saying this is the future, this is the future, doesn't matter if you make money, grow, grow, grow, go, go, go, go. And when we talk about disruption. That's what the villains say is. Yes, yes, it's kind of amazing.

And, you know, if you kind of live through the 99,000.com bubble, it was the same exact thing that, you know, the internet was going to change. know, our society, and it did, but there was a lot of, um, just eight years later. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There was a lot of like, don't worry about making money. Just go, go, go, go, go. We'll figure it out. Eventually the bill comes due.

And as that's what happened. I'm realizing the HBO Max show, you're not announcing as the pets.com. Cosmo.com delivery guy. By the way, I remember my moment for that. You just remind me, I remember being at dinner. It must have been, I don't know, 99 or 2000. and being at dinner with a friend who worked in Silicon Valley. And I remember she said, the stock is going public tomorrow.

You know, it was like a stock. Bingo.com. And I was like, what is this? You know, like, what do we do? So the bill always comes to. Yeah. And the bill for streaming came due where it was like, okay, we get that it's the future. We get that it's, you know, the cable bundle is in decline.

And streaming seems to be the way a lot of people. especially younger people want to watch TV and there's a lot of benefits to it, but how are we going to make money doing this? And that's what you're seeing going on, not just in our company, but across the board, is what is the right amount of spending, which is basically the right amount of programming to keep, to bring subscribers in, to keep them engaged. One of the biggest things you deal with, the biggest difference between cable bundle versus streaming is it's much easier to cancel a streaming service. When you had the cable bundle, I never watch ESPN. You do. We watch enough for you. You watch it.

I'm paying for it. You're paying for my HDTV or whatever I'm watching. And that worked. So you're not going to cancel your cable bundle because you're happy with your thing. I'm happy with my thing. Great. When that goes away, if someone is not using their streaming service, it's very easy to cancel. You don't have to call, you know, you don't have to call whoever.

whatever cable company. And that dynamic, that churn, is really, really problematic. And that's a big reason why it's hard to make money in streaming because you're constantly battling that. And so what, in order to keep people engaged, that was the phase where it's like more programming, more programming, keep them engaged, don't let them cancel. But that's spending a lot of money. Yeah.

So now everybody's trying to figure out like, okay, well, if you spend less, will they stay engaged or not, and that's why everybody talks about consolidation, how many streaming services can there be? All of that is happening now. Well, does that impact your grids? Does that impact, like, you don't want to leave people?

It doesn't impact my HBO grid, you know, because there's a certain amount of programming that we're going to do regardless. And, you know, one of the first, David clearly is a big fan of HBO and what we do. And I don't think anybody has any interest in in screwing that up. But where it does affect is what's the right amount of programming? What's the right amount of extra programming,

meaning the library stuff that we have on HBO Max and the originals? Yeah. And that, you know, what's the right amount of spending? Everybody's asking that, including, I think, Netflix and, you know, how do they make money? They have a huge advantage because they are 10 years ahead of everybody else, that first move or advantage, whatever, a lot of consumers will think of them like a utility. Yeah, we've talked about that before. And not to say, you know, there is competition, and I think they're feeling that,

but they have a huge advantage. So the race right now is to be, I need Netflix and X. What's the other one? The other two. And that's what's going on right now. But what has become much more complicated now is it's all of those companies didn't have,

while they were trying to, be Netflix or number two, number three, didn't have to worry about, and you also got to show a profit in a relatively new business. Now you got to do that. And so that's what you're seeing across the board that, and unfortunately, the first part of the boom was great because it was like more shows, more shows, more shows, which is great for creators. You know, it bit up the cost of talent and stage space and all of that kind of stuff, which if you're a creator or work in industry, that's great. It's boom time. But now it's, there's a bit of a contraction as businesses start to figure out or try to figure out, how do I make sense of this? Well, so this goes right

into something that I was going to ask you about, which is, you know, like you've mentioned, you've been at HBO since so far and you've had a hand in some of our favorite shows over the years, both very hands on when you were in charge of comedy. And then since you've taken this new job, and I think Andy and I sometimes get a little nostalgic for like Thrones, girls veep Sunday nights or you know this idea that like there's a certain centrality to the to the television they're watching but that era had far fewer voices probably a lot less envelope pushing when you think about it like those shows are traditional in some ways well girls girls was not girls was kind of friends you know I mean like if not not technically but like I mean they were friends but

sometimes they were not sometimes they weren't yeah let's relitigate yeah I guess What I'm more trying to say is that... We need more thing pieces. There was a time period when there was, say, a dozen to 15 shows per year that seemed to be very much centrally located in the conversation around television. And now, when we did our year-end list, I had 40 shows on my long list. And that was... Still shows that I was like, I have to have liked it to make the long list.

Do you find it... Do you find it like when... It's a more challenging time to do this work now that there's... so much more regardless of its quality? Well, yes and no. I mean, I guess I would say, sometimes, you know, Amy, Franie and I have worked and scripted for so long, and, you know, we'll talk, you know, sometimes we'll say,

what did we do in like 2004, 2005, you know, like? What was our day like? Because we were, you know, we're doing more now. So, like, I don't know what we did all day, but. Lunch. Yeah. I guess we were nostalgic for that also. Ordered from Cosmo.com.

I would say it's a lot more crowded, but also, you know, we find ourselves at a point right now. HBO has more shows and bigger shows than we've ever had in our history, and that's going back to Sopranos, six feet under. So yes and no, I guess the competition has been good, you know, good for us. But look, I think that's everybody has known and John Langroff has been ahead of this. for many years. It's just, it is unsustainable for everybody's attention. I wonder, you know, how much of that, part of it was for business reasons. I think part of it is the demise of the movie industry as we knew it, you know, where there was those mid-tier movies that were not, 10 polls. A lot of that, a lot of that talent and a lot of those movies are now

series. Yeah. So that's feeding some of it, you know, that people are watching more than they would have, I don't know, 20 years ago. So I had lunch with Sherry Lansing. One of my first jobs, when I moved here, I was in marketing at Paramount. It was not, it got me out to L.A., basically, but it wasn't what I went to do. And Sherry was running the studio at the time. I didn't know her at all. But through friends recently, I was able to have lunch with her. And she's first thing out of her mouth, she said, you're doing all, your shows are basically all movies that I would have done. Right. You know, if you think about it, Fatal Attraction, she did those James Patterson movies. Basically, sharp objects, big little lies, the undoing, mirror of Easttown are all movies.

She probably, or series that she would have done the movie of. Yeah. And I think there's a whole, you know, genre of movie that have migrated to TV. HBO has always been a little bit ahead of that. I would say other people are doing it now. as well. I think just one more question on the nostalgia circuit, but on a different side of the of the business. I don't think any of us pine for the days when Jack Welch would be like, get me more empty nest on Thursday night. It was as simple as that. You'd understand. It was clear. But I think one thing that we've wrestled with, even from our perch, not inside, but a little bit adjacent to what's going on and having some insight into it, is the opacity of decision-making these days.

Especially as numbers have gotten more insular and streamers don't share things and also what the value of something is to the company or larger shareholder concern that controls it is not really understandable to us. And so as an example, a show that we did not cover, because I wasn't the biggest fan of, but I do want to use it as an example, when Westworld is canceled, a high-profile show, it's then also announced it's being removed from the streaming services from HBO Max. it's now been announced, I think it's going to 2B or one of these fast channels. What are we getting wrong about these kinds of transactions?

Well, I have a, there's a couple things. I have a very specific point of view about the numbers. And I say this because, well, let me explain. So being at HBO where we don't sell advertising, right? We're selling subscriptions. So the value of a show to us, it's nice when it does something. something on Sunday night, but we would always say it's about the QM. You know, people can watch it on Sunday night. They can watch it in repeats on linear. They can watch it at the time on demand,

or when Go is starting, it can watch it. We care about our subscribers watching it. We're not selling advertising. And I can't tell you how much we would explain that. But invariably, press would look at Sunday night, 9 o'clock. Be like this a flop. Only, you know, 500,000 people. watch it. What a failure. And we go, but no, we don't, we're not selling advertising. It can be indicative, you know, Sunday night of how it does, but that's not the business we're in. It doesn't matter how many times we say, it's still, even now, today, you will, I am sure someone has written an article, I don't know, last of us, 600,000 people on a Sunday, that's it, you know, and they're looking at the linear numbers only. So I have seen over the course of my 18 years

their numbers be, by the way, most reporters know better too. You know, when you talk to them about it, they go, yeah, yeah, I know. Like, they get it. So the numbers being manipulated like that for me personally, I was like, yeah, I'm not giving you numbers because you're going to do, because you're going to do this, you know, that's my own, you know, obviously informed by our experience there. Look, the Westworld was a, going to fast as a whole other, we can talk about that. You're asking more specifically about what goes into deciding whether to renew a show, cancel a show in this environment? I think there's a lot of – I mean, there are a lot of layers to the question onion here. And one is exactly what you just said.

One is also the perception when things vanish, when I think people were like, oh, I thought it was always going to be there because it's part of – to your point, it's HBO, it's libraries. You have access to that. But no, suddenly things are vanishing. And then, yes, then these fast channels, which are basically like, let's make a – 97 again by science or magic. We are, as an industry, we are reinventing television, but basically internet delivered as opposed to wholesale. Yeah, seems fine. No notes.

I mean, it's, I was J.B. Perret, who's the kind of streaming head to my kind of programming head, is a very smart guy, very, very good partner for me. They, these Wall Street analysts come in, you know, they do like van tour, you know, they come in and they come in and they, you know, they come in. meet all the studios and everything. Sometimes they trot me out, I think, as the programming got to talk about, whatever. I always ask them, by the way, I'm like, do you all watch industry? Because that's what I imagine your life is like, but one of them said to me, well, how do you feel about, you know, your content being monetized elsewhere, to your point? And I was like, well, that is what we used to call syndication. Yeah. You know, like, it's not. The city who's on E. It wasn't just, we had sopranos, entourage, curb we tried. Oh, yeah. Band of Brothers. We, uh, you. We did. And remember, we sold DVDs for everything. So this, the idea that everything a company produces will be in one spot forever and ever for $15 a month for eternity is a relatively new concept. And I think to the point about, you know, people trying to figure out, well, how are we going to make money here? That's very much a, like, so that's, we're never going to make $15 a month. month is going to cover this entire thing for the rest of time. It's not a, it's a nice idea,

but it's not viable. And I have no idea, you know, Netflix's plans or anything like that. But I think in their last earnings call, they mentioned like, oh, fast might be something we'd look at. Right. Yeah. I think they're going to have to, I think everybody's going to have to figure out. Everybody's trying to figure out, you know, programming is expensive. So how do we, keep doing it and paying for it and making money from it. So, I don't know how we got it. You're asking about fast. But I mean, that's the philosophy.

I think the philosophy you're seeing changing is this walled garden approach that it's a little, it's a little bit like when Uber first came out, I was like, oh, this is just call a car. This is great. You don't have to take a taxi. I still don't think there's making money still. So it's a good idea, but sometimes it's like, hey, it's $27 to go like six blocks. Yeah. And so I think having a giant library, I think companies have to ask like, okay, well, what else can we do with it?

I also think the specifics of shows getting canceled or unc canceled. But I do think that you've in fact answered all of it with the comment you made before about there was boom times and then there's a recalibration. And a lot of this line of questioning has ended in the same place, which is how are people going to actually? actually make money off this. Yeah. And that's what's happening. And we're seeing the sort of spasms of an industry trying to figure that out. It's painful.

And it's, it's, there's a lot of, you know, one of the, one of the hard things is, you know, when you talk about a show, oh, we canceled this show, we cancel that show. It's not only the creators, you know, something they've thought about for years and spent a lot of time. Each show is a, is its own company. So you're, you're talking to, depending on the show, two to three. 400 people. Yeah.

So it's not just, you know, we write about it, you know, we'll talk about it, like this show got canceled, that show got canceled. But there's a lot that goes into that. Yeah. You know, so this is, you know, like I said, before, it was kind of great because there were so many shows being made. And now we're on the, you know, the other side of that, which is not as, which is not as fun. But everybody's trying to figure this out. But in terms of the question about, like, canceling shows. it's always in terms of, you know, we're just reinventing television over, like,

if you spend a lot of money on a show, it needs to do well. I always say, people used to ask me this a lot about HBO because there was a little, before streaming, it was kind of like, well, how do you decide if a show is doing, and I would always say a show has a job to do, and it's either, it's some combination of ratings, awards, buzz. Right. There's the three buckets. Right.

And so, and it's nice to get all three, you know. But if you're only getting buzz and not ratings, it better, you know, it has to be easy to say yes to. Like, I think one of the best shows that we have done, and this was something that Frannie is very, very passionate about. And I think it's one of the most beautiful shows that we have done. And I hope when people look back on our time at HBO, they go, that was a great show. Do you know what show I'm going to say? I'm so excited. Do you know what show I'm going to say? Can you guess? No. My brilliant friend. Oh, yeah.

Doesn't get, you know, occasionally someone will put it on their, you know, best of list. It's beautifully done. No one else would do it. But it's, it's an Italian. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, but it's easy to say yes to because it's co-production. It doesn't cost us a whole lot. If it costs five times as much, So that you've always had to make that decision. You know, what is the show doing for you? So if, and I know like in the absence of ratings, you know, for everybody to see, you can bet that whatever it is, people are making that decision. What are we getting for it?

One of the hard things I think, though, for people is there used to be with syndication, which that marketplace is gone, but there used to be, an incentive for a studio network to get to 100 episodes. Right, right? And especially with comedies. And in the absence of the syndication market, you don't have the same incentive. One of the things, you know, I have asked our data and analytics team is, well, when you're making a decision whether to do something or not, is there value to, you know, if you had a full, library. Yeah.

Like a bigger catalog. Long run, you know, it may be a short-term decision to say, well, we're going to cancel this after two seasons, but is there,

are we looking at that, are we thinking about that? I don't know. They may come back and say, it makes no sense. But, you know, that incentive is gone, and that has changed

the lifespan of shows. Yeah. You've mentioned the library a couple of times recently, and I wanted to ask because it seems like one of the fascinating wrinkles is that HBO

in and of itself is IP. So obviously you've got in just like that, you've did the Many Saints of Newark, True Detective Season 4 is coming, which is sort of a, I guess, a reimagining of a show I love. Are you almost surprised to find yourself in this place where you're looking at HBO's

past successes and thinking, what could we do with that, or does anybody have a take on this? It's tricky. I don't, well, True Detective, I think, is not, to me, it's not a remake. It's designed to be. Yeah. It's not, it's not, it's not like we're reshooting season one, you know, or we're not trying to do that and it's a different take. Would you like my notes?

Yeah. Would you like you pay more than $15 a month for that to happen? It's a tricky thing. And there's a, you know, HBO, and just like that on Max, you know, I thought about that, you know, it is an HBO show. But, you know, look, it's been in syndication. A lot of, there's probably two generations of viewers now who know it as, you know, a syndicated show. There were two movies. So it felt, to my point earlier, about doing shows on Max that are, you know, the Penguin DC stuff, a D.C.

It kind of felt more like it made sense there. Rebooting shows is a tough, is a tough thing. Because part of it is... The chatter must be out there. Oh, yeah. And people will say, you should redo this show. Generally speaking, it's not something that I am seeking to do with HBO. Okay.

Right? It's just not, it's, you're up against, you're up against people's expectations of their feelings when the show first aired. And what they would have done, the direction they would have taken it. It's hard enough to do a good show, but then to do a reboot on top of that is really, really hard. We've done it. We've done it. not like we never do it, but I would say it's not something where I'm going through the HBO vault saying, let's do this one, let's do that one, let's do that one.

Speaking of going through the HBO Vault and say, let's do this one, that one, I think you've been so generous with your time, but we do want to run through a couple of programs and with some questions around them. I think back to Last of Us just for a moment since that's what we've been talking about and what's on the air now, I have a feeling I know your answer to this, but one of the things that's been interesting for us to absorb the show, also not as gamers, is to think of it as the HBO version of a type of show that has been successful, Walking Dead or just dystopias in general. To me, that means things like obviously the production values and the cast, the quality of

writing and storytelling. Nothing more so than we're going to take the third episode to just like do a, it's not a problem. I know there's a conversation going on about the correct terminology. Yes, it's not a bottle. But it is a walled off characters we've not seen before and may not see again in a beautiful and surprising love story. You will not see them again. Making news.

So is Anna Torv and look at that. You know, you're right. I shouldn't say that. I'm watching the show closely. To me, those are the things that make it an HBO show. But I guess my guess is you're going to say, well, Craig wanted to do it. So that's why it's an HBO show. But I wonder if my framing is correct and what that means to you as HBO navigates this world where 10 million people watch the Walking Dead. You are absolutely right.

It's because I guess inherent in the answer is that's what Craig wanted to do is part of what makes an HBO show in HBO show in that I would never go to him and say our research so is that people who watch the Walking Dead liked X, Y, or Z or, you know, my experience at CBS where it was like right to the act break or whatever. I would never do that. And part of the reason why I think Craig is so talented and we had a great experience with him on Chernobyl is he thinks, he thinks in an elevated way. So I guess the trick to HBO is following, it's always been following the creator's lead and letting them kind of do what they want to do with, you know, hopefully smart and constructive feedback. But there seems like there's no better example of that than, at the moment, than White Lotus, which, you know, we tell a version of the origin story of the show in this podcast that is very flattering to you as well as to Mike. I'm curious. It should be, well, I wonder if you could talk to us about it. It should be flattering to Franny because during a pandemic, I was, what are we going to air? You know, we have nothing to air. And Mike is that, you know, we did enlightened with him. And we've talked to him over the years about other things. So he's always somebody that we think about. talk about. And Franny called him and said, I don't know, you have any ideas for, we're just, you know, Sam was doing the, um, Euphoria. The mini, like the, are they bottles? I don't know. They were like Christmas specials kind of, right? They came out the end of it.

So we were kind of like in that mode, like, what could we do? You know, we did in treatment, you know, because it was two people in a room. And so Franny called Mike and said, I don't know, you got any ideas. And he had this idea. He always had some idea about, uh, a newlywed couple. But I guess, you know, he had the idea that we would, you know, take over a hotel and it would be all self-contained. At one point, I talked to him, and I thought we were going to shoot it in, like, Palm Springs, you know, like drive out there. And the next day I know, they're like, oh, no, it's actually cheaper to shoot it in Hawaii, which didn't make sense to me. But I guess because of the incentive. I can't, honestly, I don't even remember.

But we just said, okay, sure, you know, give it a shot, why not? So it was, Franie saying, do you have any ideas? And then I guess us just saying, let's try it. Now, I'll tell you the other thing, though, where after that, for a season, I was like, well, how do you do that again? Right. You know, because you can't, doing it at the same hotel or with the same characters, it was kind of like, well, what's that? You know? And at the premiere for White Lotus, I said to Mike, so what do you want to do?

what do you want to do next? And he said, the only thing I can think of, not the only thing, like, the only thing I can't do anything else until I get this out of my brain is a second season. I was like, but what would, I don't even get it. What would that be? And then we talked and he said, you know, he came and kind of pitched the idea. And the idea kind of morphed, but it's because that's what he wanted to do more than anything. But at what point, Did you guys realize that this paragon of the HBO network in terms of you, there's a creative person who you like and you trust and you just reach out to on a personal level, what do you want to do,

was going to snowball into the new HBO. Well, no, I mean, that's thing. You never really know, shows can come through development. Shows can come in as a package in the door. We've had successes and failures in all cases, you know. So it can work any way. There's no one way to do it. This was somewhat unusual because, you know, we were looking for a different way to shoot something and it happened to fit what he was thinking.

But it's a very, you know, happy, he's thrilled doing it. I think it's really fun. I thought the response to season two, what was most important about it, I thought, is people understood, oh, I get it. And as you said, they should cast this person. They should cast that person. They should shoot it. And, you know, that's kind of, you know, that's fun. It's fun for Mike. It's fun for us. So you never know where something is going to come from.

And that show hit the three things you're looking for, the buzz, the awards, and the critical acclaim. But, you know, he and I were both interested in talking to you about whether or not these mega shows, I mean, frankly, Blockbuster shows, do they provide the ability to continue to do stuff like someone somewhere or stuff like even take a bet on industry or something like that? Or the David Simon tenure. The sinecure. Oh, you were the big, who was the big, we own the city? I was. You were. We both were, but he does the best imitation.

So he gets the credit. God, that was good. It's certainly, if you, going back to the kind of slate approach, it certainly helps. Yes. To have a show, a big show like that that is firing all cylinders, bringing in people, keeping people, bringing people to the platform. It certainly helps. if I had big expensive misfires and said, but I also want to do these little shows.

Yeah, right. You know, it buys you some credibility also. We should talk about, you were mentioning how Max is a place for the larger IP and franchise stuff, that can flourish and grow, and that, you know, that's now that James and Peter are in charge of DCs,

they're bringing you stuff and it's bubbling up that way. HBO does have its own giant franchise IP property, and that is the enlightened, expanded universe, which is Game of Thrones, obviously. And so what has your experience been like managing your own in-house sprawling IP? Because I think it's just an interesting study in how fast do you grow it? How do you grow it? What does it mean to grow it?

What do people want? Well, the way I have looked at it is when we decided to develop or try a prequel or develop. prequels. There was a lot of resistance internally because we don't, we had not done that. You know, we had never taken a show and, well, immediately, let's do a spinoff or a sequel. Carrie Diaries was on a different channel. That's true. Yes, you're right. So we had not done that. So there was some resistance, but my, I could kind of, you know, you could see the streaming world coming. Yeah. And you could also, I mean, George's universe is so huge.

that it wasn't like the only option was to take one of the existing characters and do a spinoff. There were so many stories, the history, thousands of years, and different battles and families and all that kind of stuff. It just seemed crazy not to try it, right? So my philosophy with it has been kind of how I approach most development is, let's develop it. and if the scripts are good, then great. But I don't, I don't, for me, it doesn't make sense to say, well, we're going to have, you know, two Game of Thrones prequel series per year. You could do that. And there is a way, there's a world to watch that.

But it would be, to me, it's the wrong way to develop. Because if you're like, well, shit, we got to get one done for this year, it, I think it gives you a way to compromise. It allows you to compromise and say, well, close enough. we got to do it. And I think for the team to not feel that pressure and for all of us to just say, is this good, do we like it? You know, without the pressure of, you know, an heir date or, you know, something like that. That, to me, has felt like the right way to do it. Not a factory.

Right. It is gracious of you to be here considering the way you reacted to our flea bottom, the series, which we've been pestering you about for years. So the... We're just going to take it to be. It's all right. There's interest. It's a very fast pitch. I feel like the House of the Dragon thing, and we're not going to relitigate our opinions about the show, but...

No, I agree with Sam. Although you can't. I agree with Sam. Shut. He was in that same chair. Yes. We put you in that same chair. Very wise man. It's weird the way you liked an HBO show. That was off-brand. How did you feel at the end of that whirlwind? Because, I mean, obviously, it's still going.

You have another season. At the end of the world win. Making, prepping, producing, shooting that show, and then having that experience of putting it out there, expectations, ratings, dissents. I'll tell you. It seems like it was a different year. For me, for Franny, for everybody who worked on the show,

that was several years of anxiety. Right. Right? Because of the expectations, you know, um, living up to, you know, the flagship. all that kind of stuff, just constant anxiety. So the number one feeling when it came out, when it did well, when most people besides you appreciated it, you know, the number one feeling was relief. Yeah.

Just relief. And I will tell you, it did much better from a ratings perspective than I thought it was going to do. It's at 29 million viewers an episode. I thought maybe we get to between 15 and 20. Because, you know, I think a lot of people make the assumption that like, well, you know, Game of Thrones did well, so this will do well. And that is, you can never make that assumption about a prequel. I think that's the mistake a lot of people make. You kind of have to earn it.

So I was very pleasantly surprised by that, the reaction to it. So it was relief. It was relief. Last couple things? Yeah, sure. HBO has, you know, a lot of people obsessed over this talk about it. There's a beautiful graveyard of projects that were announced, that were written, that were shot, that are talked about for HBO shows that never aired. Oh, oh, pilots or developments or things that were announced.

Yeah, it's like, this is coming. Yeah. You know, Chris and I always talk about like the world where Noah Bombach makes the corrections with you guys. And do you have a project that you is the one that got away? that like you just not not I'm not asking you to like say why it didn't work or what happened but is there one you mean a pilot that didn't come to a project you were developing you wish it worked out but never made it yes I you know like I yeah a lot you know like everyone you put in development yeah generally speaking you're not putting it in development as a bet as a bet yeah you know it's just kind of like you think there's potential sometimes you just want to work with a writer to see you

you know, do they have something? And a lot of times, you know, we'll develop something with somebody. That one doesn't go, but then we'll say, well, what about this or what about that? So that's part of the life cycle as well. But, yeah, a lot of them, you know, don't quite... I'm hard-pressed to think of one. You can't pick a favorite. I'll disheased.

I'll rephrase, or a variation of any's question. Is there an HBO show in recent memory or even really during your entire tenure that didn't get the attention that you felt like it deserved that if you could leave our listeners with one thing would be like, check this out. Well, I already said. My brilliant friend, right? My brilliant friend, I truly think is one of the most special shows we've made. And that's in the history of HBO.

I don't know that anybody else would do a show about the very complicated female friendship from age five through, I forget how old they are when we end, 40s or 50s. Nobody's going to do that, you know. And it's beautiful. It's beautifully acted, written, directed. Some of the other ones that maybe didn't get the ratings, whatever, you all know about. Like, Enlightened was a very special show, obviously. I'm sure those are the ones that I, you know.

So last thing, before we let you go, because this has been the tenor of our conversations on this podcast for a while, and it was sort of the backbeat of what we just talked about on a more granular level. But are you optimistic about the industry at this moment? It just does feel like there's a lot of, not. among viewers because viewers still have it at wonderful choices and a list of 40 best shows of the year to debate. And 75 recurring monthly subscription. Yes, exactly. But, you know, these sort of cracks in the economic piece of it or, you know, the story, the looming strikes that may happen or people feeling like, you know, things are getting red lighted instead of greenlighted. Do you, from your

position in your perspective, in your history in the industry, do you feel optimistic? Yes. I will say, I mean, you think about the, well, I'll say the history of television. Broadcast television may not be what it was. Cable television kind of took over. Maybe streaming is taking over. But regardless of the model, you know, wholesale or direct consumer or the delivery method or whatever, there is always a market for good shows. And by good, you know, people have, people watch TV for a lot of different reasons, you know, someone who watches Last of Us and wants something from that may watch, you know, a rerun of friends for a very different reason, you know, so television has a lot of jobs to do.

So that's not going away. So as this is all kind of a business problem, you know, you know. That will get worked out. There will be a lot of pain and, you know, unpleasant times like we've just gone through as you try to figure it out. But I don't think there's a world where there's not, you know, good television, a delivery system that makes sense and people can get paid and make money. I guess one thing you can say about the entertainment industry, we'll always figure out a way to make money. You know, they're going to figure it out. So that's the one thing. thing I'm sure of. It's going to take, you know, this has been, streaming is still a relatively new business. So it is going to take time. But I, yes, I am optimistic that we'll figure it out. I mean, we're optimistic. You're a renewed industry. So really, all of our gotcha questions went off the table. And I think he's renewed the watch here. Now that we know he's optimistic,

it's like, we'll probably keep trucking along for another 10 years. That's fantastic. Yeah. Are you committing to 10 more years with me? Yeah. It's like it's kind of a frank and bill thing. Yeah. Casey, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it. For making so many of the shows that we love so much. Thanks for coming to the watch. Thank you. Thank you.