The Watch - HBO Max Is Back (Though It Never Really Left) and Four Lessons Learned From ‘Andor’

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Max will be changing its name back to HBO Max and what the news says about the streaming industry at large (1:00). Then they talk about the success of ‘Andor��� and what lessons can be learned from the show (29:06). Finally, they discuss the latest episode of ‘The Last of Us’ (1:00:14). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, taking himself to Madison Avenue. It's Andy Greenwald. Hey, hey man. If I'm making advertising jokes,

you know we're talking about upfronts this week. People love upfront talk. We're going to talk a little bit of TV industry talk today. We're also going to do a little bit of Andor, lessons we've learned from Andor that maybe the industry could learn, or maybe they won't learn. So we're going to talk about the ripple effects of and or as a kind of entity within the larger

storytelling corporate enterprise, right? Maybe a little bit of last of us because we didn't get your thoughts on on the WFLF this week, Washington Liberation Front. And I just want to tell everybody that you can watch us on YouTube. Ringer-Dash TV is the channel. You can also watch us on Spotify where you're hopefully listening to us. You can hit us up in our email. It's the watch at Spotify.com.

Follow us on Instagram at the Watchpod underscore. Can I also do a little bit of housekeeping? This might be breaking news for Kai as well, but I believe we've decided we will be putting up our next episode on Tuesday, right? Next Tuesday. Next week, yes. Because I will be out on Monday. Yeah.

Just I need a little bit of alone time with some other people. Because you heard it was my birthday. So you were like, I got it. I got to really give you some space. This trip was made a very long time ago. Had I known it was your birthday, I probably would still go, but I would be much more. To be clear, no matter when you chose this trip, My birthday was still my birthday.

But do you have my, what's my birthday? November 17th. And do you have it like where you're like, we can't do that for Thanksgiving because it's CR's birthday? Yes, first of all, it's never Thanksgiving on your birthday. It's just the runway. It's the next week, though. Yeah, which is a perfect time to do things.

But you do care about your birthday. No, I care about you caring. Yeah. I'm passive, but judgmental. I'm the best person to celebrate birthdays with. Can I also address the other elephant in the room, which is... Is that how you feel about last of us? Passive judgment.

That's why I have the career that I've had. It's true. It's true. We are in a different studio today. Oh, yeah. So people who are watching might notice this. It's a little strange. It's a little, a lot of air in the room.

I prefer that to the small cave that we were in for a long time. I like to be able to focus. This is very, it's also very bill-coded. Yeah, well, we can bring our own stuff in here if you want to have like a little picture of like... Nick Foles. Terriers's ratings from 2012. I actually do have that picture. It's right behind the Rock of Sock and Robots.

You can't see it. Just like maybe we can put up a big, you know, poster of the Americans or something, whatever you want. So you want to make, because I said when we walked in, this felt like Grantland days, you feel like we should have only content that we covered on Granland? Yeah. Just Downton Abbey?

Merch. Rust from True Detective. That's your guy. Yeah, man. So I wanted to talk to you about upfront. So for people who don't really follow the trades and follow the way these things work is the networks traditionally go to

historically advertisers and say hey here's what we have coming up for the next year please buy some ads on our network now it's become a little bit more of I think upplayed of the street that being Wall Street you know trying to entice Wall Street goose stocks talk about what you've got

coming up but so many of these quote unquote networks are also technology companies so you see a lot about iterations that they're making in their products as well as Netflix, for instance, did an upfront. And Sean McNulty, who writes a newsletter every morning called The Wake Up Through the Ancler, is really good at sort of summarizing a lot of this stuff. And he noted with great interest that Netflix was largely about their ad suite.

They were like, we have like a lot of a content coming. Like I believe Sean used the word tonnage. But the most important thing is the ad suite. And it was like an ad forward, like here's how to buy ads here, here, here and here. I mean, that was the room for it. They also said, like, two more seasons of Bridgeton and Diplomat is coming back. And four seasons, it's going to be eight seasons.

Yeah. But two seasons, the television. Two seasons of TV, but eight seasons of a year, unless they change the format and it becomes more of an Andor thing. And it's like five years, but each episode is a year. Oh, my God. Right. And it's just like two years BBB, and it's before the Battle of Brunch, because that's the stakes of that show.

That's right. Amazing. You didn't finish that, did you? I've still got a season to go. I would say the stakes get larger. Oh, yeah. I actually have a feeling about those stakes. Okay.

I could see it coming a little bit. Okay. Part of my passive judgment. I'm not going to react, but I feel it. But the biggest story to come out of up front this week by far, especially for two guys like us who have been there since, you know, since when, and just like that was actually sex in the city. You know, that's how far back we go, is that Max, formerly known as HBO Max. is now in the future to be known as HBO Max because they are adding back HBO to their title.

Now, there has been a few different variations on this in terms of what is just the streaming service called. Is there a bifurcation within the network or within the streaming service for popular fare or populist fair versus the prestige scripted and sports and documentary content that HBO is so well known for? ultimately I think that this is

I guess a good thing it's a good thing it's not like I was like I just gotten used to max I'd reorganized my my tiles on my Apple TV tell me what you think I actually still have the HBO max tile so I wonder if it'll just fire back up again I think I do still have an HBO go tile I have an HBO yeah I have an HBO now yeah I think I like to hold on to my tiles right goes to show you never know it's true

it's true you think something what else is going to come roaring back. Well, isn't there like a Twin Peaks line about like that thing you like is going to come back in style? That gum you like is going to come back in style. Yeah. There is a twin peaks. That's streaming service service is going to come back in style. There's a twin peaks for that. All right. You're here this news. Yeah. I'm going to Charlie Rose and you say what. Okay. Well, I'll say that. Is that how Charlie Rose did it? Oh yeah. You've never seen me do Charlie Rose? Um, I stopped doing it because it became inappropriate, but it didn't come inappropriate. He He became inappropriate, but I was like...

He ruined your bit. His whole thing would be like Daniel Day Lewis and Paul Thomas Anderson and he would be like, he writes this script, he gives it to you and you say what? And then... It's pretty good. And he leans up and goes,

and you say what? By the way, it's okay to bring that back now. HBO Max is back. Also, racism is back. You can say anything now. So you can... It's cool. You can be Charlie Rose.

It's fine. Okay. As a white man in my 40s, I give you permission. Thank you. you it's okay. Thank you for seeing me. This is a safe space. That guy agrees with me. Anyway, well, it's interesting. So our buddy, Casey Blois, the chairman of HBO and Max content, was on, we talked about this on our pod. He was on Matt Bellany's pod and he was talking

his podcast, The Town. And in retrospect, he must have just been biting his cheek the whole time because clearly he knew this was coming and you can sort of read the tea leaves of what he was saying. We commented on it, right? Which is that the bet on renaming the service max after the discovery merger slash acquisition was that this would be the new catch-all for an entire suite of entertainment from your Game of Thrones to your Dr. Pimplepocker. Is that the only Discovery show you know? I think it's the funniest one to mention it. I believe there's also a bunch of magnolia type content.

Yeah, it's like, what are those called? Home for the holidays. Look what I did with Larry McMurtry's library. That's my favorite. That's true. You just see like kindling in a boutique hotel. Great. Is that a Gutenberg Bible?

Larry McMurtry owned. That was the play. And I thought it was interesting, and we commented it on our pod, that Casey was like, the data has proven otherwise. That this is no longer a competition for first place. That is really a Netflix. Netflix was there first, and they're parked there. that it's really a competition for runner-up,

and the best thing going for them is the HBO content, that that is what drives subscriptions. The other stuff might be nice. There are certainly people who watch everything that's available on Macs or multiple styles of shows, but the HBO prestige television stuff

is what drives the brand. So you could read the tea leaves on that, that putting HBO back in the title is kind of a no-brainer. Sure. I actually feel like it's kind of another half-step. Just call it HBO.

One of the other takeaways from this week was that ESPN is launching its direct-to-consumer service. And it's just called ESPN. And this is kind of like a galaxy brain zag that makes sense. I got it. I don't think I'm going to sign up for that. I'm still so mad that I think I'm getting charged like three times for ESPN plus. Oh, I definitely am. And also there was that period. And I still can't sign in to read like mock drafts. There was like six months ago when I was in a real pickle and I think I probably texted you, my tech support guy, where I was like, how can I watch the Monday night football tilt between our Philadelphia Eagles and whomever. And what I did in order to watch it was sign up for Field Yates' insight into like draft order in 27.

Yeah. So I was able to read our old pal Ben Solac, but I still couldn't watch the game. Right. So I messed up. Right. Anyway, this is all headed towards that place, right? that like, I think that the, I think the market has decided whether the brand value of HBO still matters and whether it has been diluted by the Big Bang theory sharing a screen with it. And I think the answer to that is no.

I think a lot of the sort of fixed brain stuff that, that legacy media brands have held on to for a long time, like Disney saying, oh, we can't have swears on a network with Disney in the title. They've let that go. And now eventually it'll just be, yeah, do you subscribe to Netflix, HBO? Disney kind of where it always ought to have been headed, right? Yeah, I think if I had one thing just as a common man who's not in these boardrooms doesn't go to lunch, you know what I mean? You never eat lunch. Nobody asks me to go to lunch.

But if I had to give one piece of advice to all the non-netflix streamers is clean it up. There's just too much confusion about what is where, when it airs, how many of them are going up, and where I find it once I turn the thing on. And I just say that as somebody who professionally covers this and follows this and watches as much as I possibly can. I think when you start getting into this is a tile inside of Disney. This is a tile inside of Max. But we know that the reason most people are coming to Max is actually for Last of Us or Night of the Seven Kingdoms, although they'll have to wait a while for that. You know, it's, I think that anything that these companies can do to get disentangle themselves for,

from a lot of the corporate tech speak that infected a lot of these basically a lot of these services from the get from the gecko would be really beneficial. I do want to throw something at you though. You know, I was just doing a rewatchables the other day, I guess they were going to say

it was close encounters because he got announced. But we were talking about how like we are farther from close encounters, the movie now, than the people in close encounters were to World War II because World War II

comes up a couple of times in close encounters. And I was thinking about this in relationship to a lot of the way that we talk about television, the way that we talk about these networks,

where are we actually getting to a point now where when we're like, what's NBC doing? It's like actually no one cares. Like there is no, there are most people in the world do not have a relationship

with NBC as a place where they go to get comedies. No, not anymore. No, right? And that's squander, though. So what's more important

is that they, get Peacock to work. At this point, but now that's actually more like sunk cost fallacy, right? Like we botched that. It's kind of like the, you know, Paramount Viacom spent years ignoring Comedy Central MTV

and now they are dead brands. That's gone and you can't really bring it back. I think that it's actually, I think we're saying the same thing because I think that Warner Brothers Discovery, now there's a secondary level of intrigue about this that like by putting HBO back in the

and sort of divorcing it a little bit from discovery. Is there going to be another sales or split? And that's very possible. We certainly have no idea about that. But yeah, leaning into what you do have rather than nostalgia is important. But B, HBO still does seem to have some sort of connection for not just us. And it means something. So lean into that because Max isn't nothing.

Yeah. It's a meaningless thing. And that is the bigger lesson. It's funny you're talking about like things from decades ago. because what we were just saying about people getting precious about, well, we don't want our legacy brand to be, you know, to be tarnished by this new media play or whatever. And I even kind of parroted that line when HBO became Max, which was I tried to see the logic behind protecting HBO. Sure. We recently, you and I, well, I did and then I was texting you like some images from the old way back machine about our old days at Spin.com, 25, 26 years ago. and that was, it,

the only relevance here is not how much you love the band party of helicopters. The only relevance here is, but it's that, so I was like,

nominally like the editor of Spin.com. And the people at Spin Magazine were like, we want nothing to do with you and your grubby little computer site. Yeah.

So we were essentially running our own pirate top 10 list of what was good that year. Shout out, primal scream exterminator. completely divorced from the content of the magazine, which was a loser for all sides, right?

It's just you kind of have to roll with it and allow the thing to become what it's going to be next. I think there's a lot of intelligent stuff happening across the board. You can see the pit, for instance, is going to be airing on TNT in the fall. Yeah, that's right. Like, and or aired on various Disney terrestrial networks at one point over the course of the last year.

You know, you've tried to do it. People are doing smart things with multi-platforming and getting the shows in front of people where they think they might enjoy them. But I think what gets complicated is when... might be a good example of this. I think actually the Disney Hulu FX stuff is the stuff that's probably most confusing

because there are people who are like, well, FX is still a cable channel, but a lot of stuff that FX does is only on Hulu. And Hulu is Hulu is also on Disney Plus. That is a message that I don't think. you're ever going to be untangle, able to untangle, except for the possibility that you can still sort of sneakily sell Hulu to people who would get Hulu anyway if they just had Disney Plus.

Like, I don't know exactly, like, how many childless people out there are like, I don't want any access to the original trilogy of Star Wars. Do you know what I mean? Wasn't that bill until, like, last week? Yeah, but like, we're not actually good barometers of this because, like, we are like, I need to be a part of all of this to see where it's, going. I think for an average person who's like, I got like 50 bucks maybe to spend after Netflix. Like, I don't know. Well, one thing to think about is this is not necessarily saying that we should be, you know, this is not a play for sympathy. But the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the fizzathinging team, who. So, we're. We're. And so. It's. It's. So, the FX programming team, who.

we laud constantly John Landgraf, Nick Grad, Gina, Bealian, they are programming FX, and sometimes FX goes on Hulu. Hulu has its own programming team that has nine perfect strangers season two coming, you know, and that is not, they don't touch each other. There's a larger argument to be made, and maybe we can get to it later when we talk about Andor that like, when you ask the question, is Andor a success. My pet theory is that it is very successful and important to the larger Disney corporation, more so than it is to the Lucasfilm project, which is distinct within. that larger ecosystem. Yes. Similarly, about, we're talking

about confusion. So at the upfronts, this week, we learned that the, the Greg Daniels penned office the paper,

spin-off slash offshoot, I think the poster says from the universe of, the takeaway is clearly that it is like the documentary team

is doing this again. That will be premiering on Peacock this fall. We also learned that there's a new new Tina Faye executive produced show

with Tracy Morgan and Daniel Radcliffe called The Fallen Rise of Reggie Dinkins, great name, and that's an NBC original comedy. Yes. You will be able to watch it on Peacock. Sure. Will someone who likes one likely like the other in the same way that they liked watching

30 Rock in the office back to back on NBC? Probably. The fact that they are completely different with different expectations and different headwinds, I don't think that matters to your friend Joe 50 bucks. But it does affect his view.

Sorry for being friends with the common man. You're like, you're like, multiple streaming services. Okay, Josh Hawley. I would be really into a seditorial commission on streaming services. I would watch that on C-SPAN or on Peacock, wherever it happened to be broadcasting. We wouldn't be able to find it. But, I mean, most senators are over the age of 70. Yeah.

So would it be like telling my parents about slow horses in which I explain in like beautiful, granular detail and they're like more or less this sounds like a dream like this is everything I would like and they say what channel is it on I know

and then I'm like the whole house of cards collapses my mom has an Apple TV and I have given her access to like any streaming service that she pretty much wants and she still uses

her Samsung's voice command to open up like Xfinity on demand to watch anything and I'm like mom you know you can watch like all of and or anything basically ever made

in the history of your life is right in this little black box and she's like I understand what time does Andor come on you know? That's beautiful. That I told you that I recently heard from my mom,

she called on the landline to tell me that she had gotten a new hers, that she had gotten a new iPhone. I was like, great. Yeah, great. Do you, are you going to store it with the last three

that you bought over the last 15 years? But once they battery died, you never turned on again? And she's like, well, I'm very excited about this new one. I was like, okay, great. Are you into the gen mojis? Like, what's the deal?

And she said, the new one. You're feeling that? She said, well, with the new phone, it can play music, not just have a telephone ring. Wow. And I was like, sounds good. Be sure to keep calling you on the landline. She's sending her some playlists.

Oh, that would be so sick. CR's hardcore playlist, 2025. Yeah. It's going to be great. are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch.

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Yeah, I wanted to talk about... Night of the Seven Kingdoms moving out of 2025 to 2026. So a year without Thrones. How are you taking it? A year without Thrones and also the thing that the biggest shows on TV now fall into, which is like you just can't run every year. So you're basically going to have

the pit, the industries, like the shows that are like about people doing pretty normal jobs in places where you can film that don't involve a tremendous amount of VFX. But I wanted to know whether or not this felt to you like it's not ready or we could use it more in 2026.

One of the most valuable things that Casey said to us when he came on the show was the long-term thinking he's responsible for in terms of this schedule. So that when he's looking, when we're like, oh, I wonder what's coming on in the fall. He's thinking about the fall of 2027.

Yep. Does this strike you as something? Because the whole, I thought, value proposition of Night of the Seven Kingdoms was that it's essentially like people talking underneath of like trees and meadows and stuff. Right. And like walking around a lot.

So. Sounds amazing. Sure. But like, do you think this is a, hey, we could use this more next year or is there? I don't know. I have no insight or intel about this production. And I think that,

what we will end up probably getting fed is whatever spin is most suitable. Like, maybe this is because of production issues. But they'll say, you know, what's great about this is it can be a like a ramp up into House the Dragon season two. So we can connect the two shows and viewers' minds and they get used to it. Or it's to say, this way we can get into production on season two faster and then it can be a little bit more reliable. Right. But now that we figure out how to make it, I don't know. I think that generally the best case...

I mean... Actually, I was about to say one or the other, but in fact, they're almost always connected. Like, if there are production problems, then I think Casey and his team, like Frannie Orsie, are like, okay, well, what are the advantages here? How can we play this delay

to our advantage and plug holes in the schedule? I had thought it was going to be this summer, which is why it was surprising. It was apparently originally supposed to go later in the year. Yes. So maybe it's not that significant of a jump in the first place.

I think the thing... But they had it in the coming soon on HBO montage, so I think everybody I think it is a surprise. But I think the, not to, I think Kya laughs when I say this word, not to glaze them too much. I got a little one. I've been counting, by the way.

We've been doing pretty well today. But I think you're ahead of me. I have a mic now too, by the way. You have a mic now? I do. Yes, I love those people. I'm a lot of silence. Any thoughts on Charlie Rose, Kaya? Any thoughts on senatorial hearings? Oh, I just lost my mic.

Oh, weird. that I think that there's a long-term thinking that is going to be most crucial going forward is to have the balance, is to have a schedule that has enough dependable meat and potato shows that can run every year to allow you the luxury

of the every two-year heavy hitter summer blockbuster type thing. HBO seems to be pivoting into that into that that rhythm successfully.

If you look at someone like FX who, you know, as we often say when we talk about FX they don't have the same budget

as HBO does. Shogun, I believe, is going into production on season two. No, I think it's in pre-production. I think it was just announced

that it's going into production in Vancouver at the end of the year or even... Oh, I thought they were like, we are now in production on Shogun. You're probably right, given like,

the global warming. You kind of need to have like a... You know what I mean? Wow, you are political today. No, I just mean like it's like... Shogun doesn't feel like a very summary show if you were shooting it in Vancouver in Japan. Like, you'd probably want to have

like some foliage and stuff. I guess you could put it in. No, they're shooting in January. January and Vancouver. There you go. And anyway, if they're shooting January 26, that means... That shows coming out in 27 at least.

I think if we're being honest, it's 27. And so much of the rosy glow of FX at the moment has been like, oh, what an incredible year they had last year with dominating all the categories at the Emmys. And Shogun is repeatable. It is an ongoing series.

Apparently, yeah. But three years between seasons, you need to fill in the margins around it. So, and obviously they've announced other things too. And they have the shows. But like, but having, you need, I think it's increasingly obvious that you need a pit in order to do a house the dragon.

I continue, here's my last. thought that I just wanted to throw at you. This is kind of adjacent to what we're talking about, but before we get on to Andor and other shows, I just wanted to say this. You know, I think sometimes we have these conversations and I'm like, is this of interest to the larger community of people who are like, what did you guys think of last

of us? I don't really care what you think of like Wall Street and tech and all this other stuff. And I think that's true, but I do think that these things affect how people watch things. And I also think that how people watch things and how they're programmed by these streaming networks tells us something about how more

the majority of people who watch television watch things. Like I was thinking about it's been brought up a few times why hasn't Netflix done more internal verticals curation being like this is this.

This is all Netflix original global. You can find things by category but they haven't really like They branded their personality. Internally branded stuff. Yeah, right, exactly. And clearly like Netflix would do anything

if they thought it would drive their stock price up. bring in subscribers, create more value. They obviously don't want to do that. They have several of the biggest shows on television that they release in one night because they know that's how people want to watch them, regardless of whether it frustrates people who talk about people watching them.

So obviously Netflix has kind of the inside track on how people are actually watching television, thinking about television, what they care about when they open up the sort of the app what they want to see. And so when we get into these conversations about like, oh, it's so complicated to find, you know, the English teacher. Eh, I don't know.

I mean, like, maybe it would be made, just make more sense if everybody was just like, here's all the shows we have, you know? And that's how people actually want to, like, receive this stuff. But I think the other takeaway from this week is that for as much as we have spent over 10 years talking about a very particular segment of television, prestigeier, streamier kind of fair that engages us.

I think that we've often, I don't know whether it's a straw man or just sort of a point on the horizon we said, but it's worth noting that, you know, the Dick Wolf franchises are still dominating on NBC and get large audiences and et cetera, et cetera, that the idea that there's some sort of still foundational beachhead of a certain meat and potatoes, use that twice, that must be hungry, but like television that exists. And the main takeaway from this up front felt very existential. Because with the shift in sports media rights and the resultant like the ripples. NBA going to NBC for the purposes of this conversation.

Yes. For the purpose of this conversation, NBA spent billions to bring the NBA back to its airwaves, not just airwaves, to NBC, to Peacock across its platforms. And one of the first dominoes from that is massively fewer television shows. In fact, I think the only scripted stuff on. NBC right now, I mean, aside from the Tracy Morgan thing you just mentioned, is Dick Wolf's universe of Chicago shows. And Law & Order shows. Yeah. I think it's like

pretty much, it's just like the voice reality stuff and sports now. And that's what's left. Right. That's radical. And then you hear, like, you know, Jimmy Kimmel always does a bit, or Seth Myers usually does stand up at the NBC

Universal up front. And Jimmy Kimmel is at the Disney upfronts. And if you read or I don't think you can see, but you can read some of their bits. I mean, it's rough. You know, basically to be able to being like, you guys are all, you guys are all morons and we've got nothing left for you, basically. Like, this is it. Yeah.

It is, I mean, the positive spin is that it is existential shift in the industry. And it might quote unquote work, but it does sort of redefine what TV is and what it's going to be. It's hard for me to imagine a world in which. even if it is somehow better than the office, the paper ever achieves the kind of impact. It can't because of the opportunities people will have to watch it and engage with it. It does mean it's not going to be good.

In fact, I'm secretly kind of bullish on it. But maybe this all speaks to our larger point of, let's be honest, about what we're capable of doing with the reach is, even if that means reducing our expectations. Wait, isn't that what Trump said about the economy? Well, you know what? This is actually a very appropriate way to segue into Andor and into the sort of ripple effects and the lessons of Andor

because let's be honest about what the reach of that show was and let's be honest about whether there's anything replicable about it. Obviously, you did a lot of like, I think, kind of shoe leather journalism about this and be completely sincere. Yes. So I would love to kind of just clear out and set some picks for you here. but I think we could start here is, you know, it's, we're going to not, we're going to try not to spoil too much of Andor, but I would recommend you watch the show before you listen to some eggheaded conversation about what it meant. And we won't, I don't think we need to spoil it at all, but I, but also I don't even know if we've officially said, I'm sure if you're listening, you're aware, but we did have Tony on.

Yes. Earlier in the week. That was a full, like, hour-long conversation. So if anybody is interested in that, that went up on Tuesday night, corresponding with the last three episodes of the series. was Andorra's success or is Andorra success? So I think this is the toughest question to answer and it's still kind of premature. And to your point about doing shoe leather journalism, like I did talk to people in the industry, not people directly involved with the show, of course, but like what the perception of it was.

And, you know, it is worth noting not in terms of it's like, it has nothing to do with any shows like bottom line or budget, but there are certain shows that shoot through the quote-unquote industry. whatever that may mean at this moment, like wildfire, and do impact people's thinking. And I think I referenced that, that like three or four weeks into the pit, people were talking about it in referencing it in conversations

and in pitches that had nothing to do with medical shows that were attempting to recreate the 90s. Andor is definitely at that level of conversation. You know, one of the executives that I spoke to who works at a rival company finished the season alone in his office yesterday morning

because he didn't want to be left out of the conversation. The question about whether it's a... So what I did though, I basically, in considering that question, I came up with four reasons why this could never happen again and also four reasons of optimism of what can be brought in. Fantastic. For your question about success, I sort of, what I said before about,

I think that the impact of the show and the success of the show creatively, which is undeniable. and the conversation and then hopefully the award chatter and nominations, which do matter internally to companies, I think is enormously valuable to Disney and its larger small screen scripted project. I think that it's a challenging question for Lucasfilm because it is so profoundly one of one. Because the bulk of Lucasfilm's business, and I don't say this pejoratively, is maintaining and propping up a legacy brand that sells a shit ton of merch. that is historically for kids, not adults in the way that Andor is for. It kind of deviates from the brand's core purpose in ways that thrill us, but maybe even leave the most optimistic, sympathetic, even fanboyish people within the company being like, well, what are we going to do? And I don't think that's necessarily a failing. I think the question about whether it's a success

will be, will actually be borne out by a lot of the award stuff and what happens. although I was, I did get the sense that the long gap between season one and two was beneficial to the show and to the show's bottom line because just existing on the service next to a new hope and everything generates interest. Yeah, and it's a steady performer, I think, on the service. We're seeing this in contemporary film with centers where the miracle of a film that doesn't have a 75% drop from its first week to its second week because people are telling their friends, you've got to check this out. So it's still making like $20 million a weekend at least. I don't know that Andor could be considered a blockbuster on those levels, but I do think that Andor is a word of mouth success and that people are making a project out of watching it, or probably watching Rogue One, are spending a lot of time on the Disney app.

Connecting the dots. So yeah, I'm sure it's got some value in that sense. So, okay, so let's go through this list. So here are the things that make this show completely unique, irreplaceable. Black Swan event, sorry, but let's enjoy it while we had it. Number one is that, like, this show was not developed. And what I mean is, like, most projects that get to our screen, you know, almost always it's like a spark of an idea in the brain of a creator of a writer or pre-existing IP or whatever. But everyone involved, I think that sincerely, with good faith,

takes a lot of pride within this industry of, like, we developed it together. We attached talent. we gave notes, we sort of steered it in the right direction, and that gets a lot of buy-in from the executives and even like the most thoughtful ones, right? Like we got it over the finish line together and a successful dish has many cooks, many authors, or whatever. This is not that, right? This is a God-level creator in Tony Gilroy saying,

hey, there's a clear baton pass here. I can do this relay race. I can take the baton from this movie and create the character and get him to the end of it. and that's the assignment. And as he said to us on Tuesday, that's what he set out to do. And then he did it in ways

that are just mind-blowing. But just that simple fact that he just basically, as he said to us, he wrote an email saying, well, here's what you do. And then they were like, okay, better go do it.

Yeah. That is very, very unique. Second one is that it fell between the eras and imperatives of streaming in a way that won't be repeated. You know, again, he talked to us about this,

but like when, he wrote that email, it was go, go, go. It was the gold rush era. And everyone was trying to establish a foothold and prove how serious they were about shifting their entire business model on the fly. And so when you have a good, a smart guy

come in with a good idea, they were like, great. And then also this. And then also this. And then you get a movie and you get a TV show. That entire ecosystem changed. I mean, that was also pre-COVID, let alone pre-strikes. Yeah, but it was just like the money faucet is on full blast because the more we spend on stuff and the more stuff we have, the more Wall Street

lakes and so our stock price goes up. It's growth, growth, growth. That all changed radically while they were in production on the first season, which is why this went from being a five-year project to a two-year project. Now, Tony has also said he didn't think he had the horses to do five years. And he keeps referring to Diego's face as like moving in the wrong direction. And I'm like, I will go down that direction. That is a very handsome direction.

could look like Diego Luna five years from now, I would probably erase Andor from my mind if I could. I would just like gladly trade that. I don't see the issue. I can't even grow a beard. You know what I mean? But so, so that hitting that timing is so unlikely and it would be very hard to go back to that, this place where it's like go go go as big as you can and just try not to break too much on the way out. Like that attitude is definitely gone from all of these corporations. Um, three, and I feel like this one is kind of controversial, not controversial, but might be surprising. Um, Kathy Kennedy, who is on her, supposedly, although we don't really see the timeline, has said she's retiring from Lucasfilm. Yes. Much, there's been some, some competing

reporting about that. Yeah. But much vilified for her tenure in charge of this company and a lot of the blame for the, I mean, we certainly feel creative failures of the, the, the, the, the, the, the trilogy. Yeah. Ultimately, the, but. stops with her. So yeah. Yeah. And some of the other TV projects. I'm not here to

overly praise or overly bury someone who I've still never actually met or engaged with. But if you look at her track record and her success record in Hollywood and also why she got the job, it is very old school producerial career.

She worked on some of the biggest movies with Spielberg and Frank Marshall in the 80s and 90s, and the job is to get everything to yes, to help creators get to yes on everything and make their dreams. And her reputation has been tarnished a little bit because of the fallouts that she seems to have had with various directors on various projects. So whether it's Colin Trevereaux on Rise of Skywalker or Lauren Miller on Solo, a lot of announced but then never realized projects with Ryan

Johnson, David Bonyoff and D.B. Weiss. If you were a... Patty Jenkins... If you were a Kennedy squadron is still flying around out there somewhere? Yeah, well, you said the Death Star still exists. So, look, I think that the argument for the Kathy Kennedy Apologists would be she completely trusts and empowers directors, but sometimes she trusts and empowers the wrong ones. Now, I'm not saying that to be,

I have no knowledge of any of those interactions. That was what an apologist would say, that, like, you have to know, you basically have to know how to drive the sports car you're being given the keys to. Right. Tony knows how to drive that car. He is an Academy Award nominated writer and director and had a vision and has his team

and has been in the industry since that era and worked with a lot of, like he's worked with Jerry Bruckheimer. Like he's worked with the big, big dogs of old Hollywood. I imagine they have a great relationship. And if her legacy at Lucasfilm on the plus side of the ledger is she empowered this guy to do this thing, it's pretty good. Yeah. It's pretty good.

So it was a good match, let's say. none of this happens in a vacuum that seemed like a very good producer-creator match and not obviously not repeatable. The last one is that is, and I really want to hear what you think about this, but like the idea that all

of these massive IP universes are flexible enough to allow different shades of storytelling within them that adult storytelling could exist and or proved adult storytelling could exist within Star Wars, but does it also suggest or imply that adult storytelling

could exist within Marvel or DC or Lord of the Rings. And my gut reaction is no, both because of where those IP universes exist in terms of the bottom line of those companies. Like Marvel needs to get Avengers money rolling, assembling again. Yeah. It's not about like, oh, let's really humanize shield or, you know, what was like, Jesus, I had it right the tip of my tongue, but damage control. We're going to fix the rubble.

the other thing is that though the nature of those universes, particularly Marvel, kind of invalidate the premise of Andor, meaning a spy series set, not even director bullshit spy series, but like, okay, let's really talk about like the CIA in the Marvel universe. It kind of just gets undone once Professor X is like, actually he's lying. You know what I mean? Whereas Star Wars does, had created, and this is something that Tony took advantage of, a universe where there are billions of people, some of them are Wall-Rour, and maybe 17 of them have ever seen a lightsaber.

Right. So, okay, there's a lot of space there to tell a story. And I don't know if that's true. I want to know what you think about that. That's a great question. I mean, Marvel has tried to do that. I mean, that's... Is that secret invasion?

That's what secret invasion was supposed to be. And you could make an argument that there were elements of that in... Falcon and the Winter Soldier that they wanted or have talked about Winter Soldier being their like 70s conspiracy thriller. I think... That's Congressman Soldier to you. That's true. You know, I can never get away from the hero part of superhero movies.

And that ultimately, not only are they going to be super and Trump whatever, like basically work a day, conflict, trial and error, you know, drama that's happening on the streets of the world that they're talking about. they can just fly in literally and stop a building from falling and then fix everything or read somebody's mind. But that ultimately Marvel has posited these people as heroic. Now, and or culminates with several of our most beloved characters doing capital crimes, which is totally like my shit. Yeah. But it's hard to sell. I mean, that is the adult part that you're talking about. Yeah. It's like, can you leave this theater or this TV show with mixed feelings about what you've just scene with mixed feelings about characters that you've invested in. I happen to think that that's how you deepen your relationship to those characters is to be able to see them not in the best light,

to not always be making the right choice, to not always save the day at the end. But, you know, it wouldn't be Empire Strikes Back if it happened all the time. And that's the thing. It's like, we talk about like, well, we want this darkness and we want to have this edge and we want to have this kind of like melancholy or sadness or like, you know, feeling that things aren't aren't going to work out so that when they do work out, it's really, really EWalk time. You know, like, I think Marvel has not quite gotten there outside of infinity and endgame. Yeah, and it did, they, I mean, you know, I like those movies. Generally, but in terms of the aim of the project and the capability of the project,

it does make me think a little bit about, and we don't need to get too into it, but like the Superman trailer that dropped the new Superman trailer. And I've been pretty bullish about this project, and the reason being, I just had a feeling that James Gunn gets what makes the character unique and interesting, which is kind of what Kevin Feigey has done repeatedly with even obscure Marvel characters. If you can just communicate it, the audience is on board. This trailer is the first thing that gave me pause, because this trailer is the first thing that made me realize that there's no universe,

certainly not the DC universe or our universe, where this movie can just be about that one pure idea. this is one of the busiest trailers I've ever seen. Isn't that the disease of modern life though? It's certainly, yeah. I mean, it certainly is. Isn't that like you went to Yankee Stadium to watch the Yankees be the Yankees, but instead you get sold like all this other stuff

and all these other experiences that you're supposed to have? Yeah. Like isn't Superman's not enough? Because if Superman's not enough, nothing is, right? And that's kind of, I think that's, I can't say it any better than that. There are moments in this trailer where I'm like, oh, truth, justice, heroism, also just like the physicality. of like him being so strong that when he falls like the sidewalk crumbles.

I was like, it's cool and the visuals are cool. But also he's a beacon of truth and justice and the common man, but also he's an international criminal. And also he has an army of robots and a dog and seven other superhero pals. I just feel stressed thinking about this. You already start thinking it's like this movie's going to be how long? And I guess I have to watch it to watch the next seven movies. But like that kind of fatigue when usually the opportunity is to do.

one good thing to start. Sure. And this isn't meant as a criticism of Superman. It's, again, a reinforcement of the idea that for as much as a show that costs hundreds of millions of dollars and had like multiple night shoots in Valencia, Spain, like this was kind of under the cover, under the radar of the larger project. Yeah. It didn't have to teach us what the future of the Jedidom holds, right? It was just about connecting these particular dots.

I think there's even more just even speaking from the artistic creative side of it, there's a significant difference between characters and pieces on a chess board of a shared universe. I've seen a lot of people very rightly be like, man, I would love to see a prequel about X or a sequel about Y or like what's happened to these characters next. And I understand that desire because I have it as well. but these people were not extensions, they were characters. And so when you watch a Superman trailer and you're like,

that is a lot of fucking villains or allies that they're introducing when it really does seem like Lex Luthor Lois Lane and Superman are pretty solid foundation to build a movie off of. It's happened before. I think the Marvel disease,

not disease, but the Marvel issue and maybe even the DC issue is that you're making a movie to make more movies. Andor was made to tell a story that had a very fixed endpoint, which was the beginning of Rogue One. Yep. And I think that that ties into the things that I think should be lessons to learn from it,

although I do just want to reiterate. One of the most shocking things that Andor has done for me personally is that it 100% made me a fanboy kid again in such a pure way. It's actually been like a problem. Like I should not be thinking about Star Wars this much right now. But like I just sort of. so purely and so naturally found myself watching those last few episodes. And we're not spoiling the show here for people who haven't finished it. But I was like, okay, but really Alexander Scarsgaard

could do the Luth and Flashback show. Right? I'm like arguing with my, I'm not arguing with myself. I'm dreaming about it because how cool would that be. Now, it won't happen and it shouldn't happen to the point that you made. But it's pretty exciting that the show that is supposedly engaging with our cerebral adult selves can also reawaken the other part of us. Okay, so here's the four lessons, and I please, thoughts and comments. Number one, and this might be one of the hardest ones for executives, is trust the ones who deserve trusting. Now, maybe knowing who to trust is accurate for the rebellion and also for veteran executives. Sure.

Maybe that is the special sauce that the people who have been together for decades like the HBO team or the FX team have. But I think the hardest things for smart execs to do, even well-meaning ones, is to get out of the way. And if you have a writer's room of super alphas, like two Gilroy's, Bo Willemann and Tom Bissell, like, let him cook. Yeah. If you hire Luke Hall from Chernobyl and you see what he does in season one, honestly, give him his own corporate card. Because it's worth it. It is... I don't think he was doing his own expenses. No, but I'm saying let him build what he needs to build because he is the best at what he does operating at the peak of his craft. And again, we talked to Tony about this. He was an EP on season.

which is not standard for production designers, but is well deserved. Well, it sounds like he was also the first person to talk to Tony about, okay, you've written it. Let's start building out what Mon's wedding. Yeah. Mon's daughter's wedding looks like. Let's start building out what are the nooks and crannies of Corrason. Let's start building out what a prison looks like.

And let's, like, if you're talking about the Gorman Town Square, which is all you can afford to build, how do we maximize it? How do we maximize the story and the drama from the location? from the stage set. I just think it's a hard lesson to learn in anything in management, but sometimes it's the meddling you don't do that matters the most. Two is kind of what we're speaking of. Adults want entertainment too,

and I don't just mean within IP universes. Because I think the curse of handholding, of four-quadrant thinking, of how can we make this busier, pop more, in a way, kind of what we're saying about Superman, I think that is a disease that has infected almost all of our entertainment. And you see it in, and I think even the casual fans are starting to see it with like every show beginning with three months earlier. The most interesting thing happens.

But that's not where our show begins. Begin your show at the most interesting moment. Yeah. Like, do that. We don't always need handholding or explanations. I think that reference also to that end, reference points for what shows could or should be don't need to have like only. only an 18-month tale. Meaning, when we sit here and we talk about Andor and we get excited, we're talking about

like British miniseries from 1981 or French films from the 60s or novels or history books. Like, if something excites you or historically has excited a group of people, it doesn't lose its special sauce just because it's not within a streaming window. You know, the bear and baby reindeer are exceptional television shows and connected with people. but other things have connected to people too. Sure. So if those can't be the only two shows that people are throwing around

as reference for what they want to do with the medium, I feel like when someone comes in, and there's a lot of this seems to be like notes for executives, but I think it's for creatives too. Like people should trust their passion more, honestly. And I feel like you probably see this too

in podcasts, rewatchables. When you guys talk about things that you guys care about, even if it's not, you know, a nine on whatever on Rotten Tomatoes, people will respond to the passion more than the specific. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's something that was happening maybe 2015-16 to about 18, 19-20 that we saw were technology companies starting streaming networks and kind of not knowing what to do with their money.

So allowing people to kind of pursue passion projects. What those passion projects wound up being, whether you're talking about something like 0-00 on Amazon or I may destroy you on HBO. can sometimes be construed as people want international global crime. Right. Or people want true stories from underrepresented voices who are talking about trauma. They want point of view, right? Like they want things to feel at once different, but interesting and familiar. Because that's what the best stories do.

It's like you open up a book and you start reading Anna Karenina or you start reading Alan first and you're like, ah, I'm immediately like thrown into this world and I'm. thinking like these people and thinking about the choices that they're making and the circumstances that they're facing. But that's not necessarily like replicable on a cookie cutter way where you can

decide like a programming strategy against it. And so it's really interesting to think about a trend coming out of Andor being like more espionage sci-fi shows based on previously existing IP. Maybe that would be cool.

I mean, it's not like we haven't had that. though. Like one of the funny things that's been happening to us over the last 24 months especially is we keep getting shows where we're like, is anybody else in a simulation where they're making TV shows just for you? And then you get the show and you're like, that was okay. That was pretty good. Yep. And it's not that there's anything wrong with the intention of the creation of the show, but making TV is really hard. Making anything is really hard. And making stuff on this level starts to become kind of a like, can you hear Jimmy? Like, are you? really like, do you know what I mean? Like, I guess my major point is it's about voice and it's about depth to me. And that is the hardest balancing act. I mean, I didn't even put that on the list

because I was trying to find a way to articulate it that I think you just did so well. Andor was about everything and one thing in every scene. And only old Jedi masters can do that. And I think that the lesson that I put that is kind of an offshoot of that is if you have to

err on one side of the other, as a creator or as a developer or whatever, always err on the side of people. Always. You cannot say, very few people can do what Tony did and say, I'm going to make a show about revolution and then also have it

hit as hard as it did. Because I think also if Tony was sitting with us, he'd say, well, no, I got to make a show about revolution, but the assignment was to make a show about Cassie and Andor. And I feel I did that too. He is a good writer because he writes people first. I think that we keep getting farther away or forgetting the idea that if the show is not fundamentally about people, if it's about an idea or, God forbid, if it's just about a world, then it's a documentary or it's a video game. Yeah.

And there are people who love certain types of video games where you wander open space universes and you're like, wow, now I can see the sunset over this hill and watch the works. It's so easy to segue to last of us right now. or whatever, I know. But, and I'm happy, I'm happy for you. But that's not the same as drama. Yeah. Show me a person in that world and tell me, make me care about that person and then fill in the background.

And that's essentially what makes something good. I went back and started watching some of the older episodes for, you know, obviously I'm researching the second season, talking to Tony, but just even before we had this conversation, I went back and especially watch the Aldani sequence of episodes from the first season and the Narkina season. of episodes or a sequence of episodes. And I was really struck by how brave it was to start Cassium where they start him. I mean, he's basically like a petty thief when you first begin the show.

You get flashbacks that suggest his origins and like what difficulties he's faced. And obviously like when Marva comes into it, you have like a warmer feeling towards him. But if you start the show off, just much the same way you start the movie off when he's, basically murdering someone to get some information it gives you a real cold feeling about the character and to watch him not only like

I mean this is just really sturdy writing almost every single character from the number one on the call sheet to people who are in the background of most of the first season who then become major players in the second season has an arc

that you could easily diagram for people where it's like he starts here and then he gets a promotion and then he gets a demotion and then he gets a promotion again but then all this time his relationship to his mother is like this

his relation to his lover is like this his relationship to his work is like this and Cassian is actually like they should teach it in schools to start somebody who goes from like

thief to mercenary to prisoner to spy to rebel captain to hero yeah to hero to martyr is a pretty remarkable

piece of writing I mean it's unbelievable. And you think about like, first of all, you were talking about all the people in the background, I was like, the other geniuses that you need to let cook are casting directors. Yeah. Because think about how much casting mattered on this show. Like every single person, I just believe is the single best person that could have played that part. And I mean, you go back to the prison episodes.

Every single face in that prison, you're like, who the fuck is this guy? And that person has a story. Yeah. And like there's a level of, I also always want to try and be, fair-minded, like, the best stories are always just overwhelm you with specificity and decision-making. But that said, not every show has this budget. Not every show has this deep bench of imagination to draw from. But very few shows would give us an alien race in revolt and take the time to invent a language for them, the way they do on Gorman, you know, or the celebration and songs and morning songs that are in the first season. in the Aldani celebration or what happens at Ferricks at the end.

Like this is what you're making a show about people in revolt or about a culture, then you have to service culture. Most of these shows don't have that luxury. But if we are moving into a bifurcated and maybe a healthier ecosystem where some shows take longer and some shows don't, and they're the right types of shows to take longer and not. Like a medical drama probably shouldn't take $200 million in two years to make a season. But if you're if you're,

if you have a healthy balance in your diet as a network or streamer, some of that production money, yeah. Dragons take a long time, but so do building real culture, real life, investing it with something more than just, you know, vis effects at the peak of its powers. The last thing on the list was just that I was thinking about, when we talked to Tony, one of the things that really struck me was how much he brought from his movie career to writing for TV in a good way, in the sense that he's,

what he said to us about like the number, the page numbers, page count. He's always cutting. He's always cutting because you have such little real estate. His response wasn't cracking his knuckles and being like, hell yeah, we're going to do, we're going to take, you know, eight episodes to get this thing moving. Now, obviously there are budgetary and story concerns, but so much of TV is so poorly paced and plotted. And, And a lot of that comes back to the original sin of, oh, now we have room to explain everything. And that infects movies, too, with prequels and origin stories and blah, blah, blah. But like, if you watch back on Andor, which you've been doing, I think you're seeing in real time how every single moment matters.

Oh, dude. I mean, I was actually thinking about this on my drive-in, I was listening to, I was listening to Big Star, which is this band. I mean, you guys should all listen to Big Star. but on I think it's on kangaroo, which is one of their big songs, Steve Cropper, who used to be in Bookerty and the MGs, plays on it, right?

And he plays like six notes. He apparently was just like, you guys were way too whacked out. Like, I can't do this. But plays like seven notes on a telecaster. And the writing on Andor is basically like that. It is what is the bare minimum that people need to have an emotion

or an idea communicated to them, but has also got style and swagger? I don't, we don't really see Luthin that much in the second half of the second season. But think about how impactful his appearances are. Yeah, every choice. And we also, in every one of those scenes are like, oh, that's what he's been up to. And I think that it is, I mean, everybody's just making TV for streaming services while the world burns. I get it.

But at the same time, I think that one bit of service that is incumbent on the creative industry is to do everything we can. to try and re-educate people towards accepting uncertainty and nuance and shadow in art and then maybe, God forbid, in life as well. But, like, that is a fairly noble mission. I think that art, I don't feel like I'm beginning too big for my britches in saying it.

I feel like that is what art does for us as humans in the world. And the fact that so much of the power of Andor comes from its silences, from its ellipses, from the space between episodes, between seasons, between scenes, is significant and meaningful. And in expert hands, that can be sloppy.

And it can leave you asking. But that sense that two seasons, two pretty perfect seasons of TV, has left us with, which is, oh my God, we wish we had more, but we are very satisfied. That's a very good place, I think,

for people to leave a show. Absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself. Did you want to talk a little bit about Last of Us or does it almost feel like a bittersweet ending to the pod? I don't have a ton to say about this episode a lot of what I said

about the previous episode stands. I liked this one less than the previous episode. I thought this one suffered a bit from TV stuff. From Jesse showing up at just the right moment even though he had apparently

been following them for weeks. We don't know. We're not really sure. Maybe we'll get more of an explanation about it. I think the way that they tell this story is sometimes like a thing will be confusing and then it will get like a flashback episode or an explanation. But I was just curious whether or not you were enjoying the

the Seattle experience. Briefly for a moment, I was just flying. I was like a Superman trailer. I almost don't want to end the pod like this. I know. I can't believe you brought me there. Yeah, I mean, weirdly, this one bothered me less than the previous episode. There you go, different strokes.

But mainly because it, I mean, it was definitely less ambitious and it didn't have like the soaring Jeffrey Wright monologues that really, really, frankly, pissed me off. This episode was just more like revealed, I think, some of the central flaws of the show. You know, like I'm really not that invested in the teen buddy comedy romance that also involves shooting people and zombies.

Like, I don't buy it emotionally. I'm kind of out on it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And the arc of the Ellie character learning the limits of her own savagery feels exhausting and also boring. I don't think there are any limits. No, right.

But that, I don't really see the appeal of that. And I'll just circle back to like, you know, what I kind of had been saying, which is it's, we've heard about gourmet cheeseburgers. Well, this is like, this is gourmet Walking Dead now. Which is very satisfying, I think, to people who like these shows. But it is a remarkable drop off and one that I have sympathy for

considering what it was dropping off from. the second episode, it didn't matter how what I care or what I feel about zombie shows or how I feel about Bella Ramsey's performance or any of the other details that I bump against when I watch the show. That was an undeniable episode of television. It was so expertly made and it was thrilling and it was surprising and it was engaging and that wins every time. But when you drop down from that and not every episode can be that, you're back down to- Yeah, just like not every episode can be Nick Offerman in the first season. I mean, I think that- You drop down to the bare bones and not, I'm like, this isn't, this, I mean, frankly, it's just, it's not for me.

This is the show. The previous season had a lot of swagger. Like, it had the, the way it opened with the talk show. It had the, it had style. The woman who was like, we have to bomb the city. Like those little flashbacks, those, you know, all the Texas stuff was incredible. I thought getting out of Boston and the beginning of that story was really quite striking. And, you know, I've really enjoyed some Jackson stuff.

But I think it definitely feels like it's stuck between. gears right now. And, you know, you can't help it when you read online, like, that just feels like the show is now, like, geolocated for, it feels like it's, like, not satisfying the games fans. Right. I don't know if I find it so satisfying because it feels like it has to adhere to certain, like, we have to put her in a room with three aliens that she then figures out a way out of, you know? And that, a lot of that feels very video gamey to me, but, You know, I mean, there's a couple more episodes left in this season. It does feel like it's also like the multiple seasons issue, like,

where it's like, well, we're going to be doing this for two more seasons probably is straining it a little bit. Well, the other thing it was robbed from season one. Because they didn't really do anything this episode, right? Like, they kind of like... Well, they ran around and we saw some new bosses for a video game level. She played guitar again. We learned why... And then there's a lot of backfilling, which is decent.

She plays guitar and you say what? You don't want to know what I say. But, yeah, I mean, we learned the roots of Dina's savagery. You know, like, okay, so that's some backfilling. That's fine. I'm just personally, I assume none of you guys have a happy life. You know what I mean? It seems like it's a pretty fucked up world.

You don't feel like there was one like Montessori city that survives? Did you think Dina was going to be like, I grew up in an incredibly warm, loving household with two parents? Nothing ever happened to us. It was kind of boring, honestly. But I found my own way. I got into art. That's why I'm such a thrill seeker now, you know? I mean, the other thing that was robbed between seasons is a point and a purpose. Now, not all shows need an explicit endpoint, but the first season had the momentum of get this magic child out of the city and into the arms of doctors to save the world.

That's pretty big stakes. And this season's mission is, we must avenge this guy. Must we? I mean, yeah, we're making the case emotionally and you're saying something about it, but that is a different set of stakes. And I don't think it's earning the same swag. I think swagger is well said for the first season. that it had. It's also worth noting that it does appear that we're in for a standalone episode and it looks like your Zaddy's back for a flashback. I'll say this. As a super, I mean, I don't even know if I've earned this title. I was going to say a casual fan of the show. I don't know if that's my correct designation. As much as I liked having Pedro Pascal on the show and I like watching him. You don't want to drive back 15 miles. I'd pick up something else. Yeah. I know What is left unsaid about that relationship, right? I mean, the ab...

It's a lingering wound. I think it's just the secret. It's the secret of what happened in Salt Lake City and whether... What Ellie understands about that. Because she said, I know, right? I mean, that's the suggestion from the coming soon. When what... Oh, did you watch The Coming Soon?

Yeah. Do you do the work? I just didn't turn off HBO Max before the trailer ran. Well, that's where you're wrong. It was actually aired on Max. That's true. But this summer, it will once... again, Aaron HBO Max.

We didn't talk about it, but we should just also plan a little flag to the studio rules. Yeah, we'll hit the studio on Tuesday. I want to do the studio. I would like to at least... She waited for the finale, though? When's the finale come? It's next week. Yeah.

And I also want to talk about 100-foot wave. We've got a couple of things coming soon, too, like TV shows, Department Q, adults. There's some good stuff. You also... I notice you didn't save time for my Minecraft movie review. So I guess we'll have to push that till next week. I want to do like a... Special Andy goes to the movies after Mission Impossible.

Oh. We can just do, we can just have it all stretch out. I can tell you about friendship. I know all about friendship, lowercase, F, because I do this pie with you. Thanks to Kaya, thanks to John. We will be back on Tuesday next week, but then reverting to our usual Monday, Thursday. Have a great time getting away from me on my birthday. I love it.