The Watch - Hiro Murai on ‘Atlanta’ Season 3 and ‘Station Eleven.’ Plus, Where Do the Oscars Go From Here?

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about Will Smith slapping Chris Rock and other moments from an otherwise boring Oscars (1:00). Then they talk about the first two episodes of ‘Atlanta’ Season 3 (28:06) before they are joined by director Hiro Murai to talk about the difficulties of making seasons 3 and 4 of the show after such a long break and his work on one of the best shows of last year, ‘Station Eleven’ (36:13). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Hiro Murai Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there.

Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me on the other line when I'm at my highest, he's the devil who comes for me. It's Andy Greenwald.

That's me in a nutshell, baby. What's up, Andy? Happy Post-Oskers Day. Happy Post-Atlanta Day. What a show we have for you today on the Watch podcast. America's, you know, like a top five. I think TV podcasts, we can say. But we have Hero Moray, the director of,

many Atlanta episodes, the director of many Barry episodes, one of the executive producers and directors working on Station 11, one of the foremost directors working in television. Hero joins us for the second half of the show to talk about Atlanta being back, which is a joy, one of the few joys we have in the world. Andy, how are you doing today? I feel weird, man. I feel weird.

This is a tale of two halves for a podcast because we will talk about the first two episodes of Atlanta season three, which premiered last Thursday. We teased them a little bit, but didn't get too in depth. So we'll, later in the show, we'll talk about those episodes, then get into our interview with Hero, which was such a pleasure. It's been a long time coming. We've all played footsie for a while when we finally got them on the pod, which was great. I know there are folks out there who want our takes on, or would tolerate our takes. I don't want to be, I don't want to assume too much, but would tolerate our takes on severance, which had a big episode and winning time, but we'll have to punt those to later in the week.

Yeah, we have Severance. We have winning time. Moon nights coming this week, I believe. God, yeah, it is. So a lot on our plates, but I think we like all of America. Yeah. So the Rare Podcast Network has already produced, Kai McMullen specifically, has produced some great content on this event already. You know, Sean and Joanna did the big picture last night. I thought that was great. I listened to Juliet with an off-the-top rope performance from Amanda Dobbins on Rear Dish and with Kate Hallowell. I thought they were great. You've ever heard of a podcast show named Bill Simmons? He had Jimmy Kimmel on to talk about...

Jimmy Kimmel on minutes later. Jimmy would have handled it. And it was great because then it's just like... It's just Rosillo for an hour. And Belany, Matt Velany did the town. And I believe he had a lot to say because he was obviously kind of tweeting from inside the building about that stuff.

Let's kind of... I mean, I guess we could just sort of start. So obviously, unless you've been living under a rock... I will say this. Can I just paint you a little bit of a... picture. I'd love it. So I went out last night. I'm in Philly. And a rare case for me where I happened to have a friend in town, so I got to go out last night, went to Pizzeria Bidia. Is it Bediah? You did Bidia last night too? I did Bidia. Chris, you had the best night ever up until you went home

and watched the Oscars. I had this amazing, I had amazing pizza. I went to Bob and Barbaros, which is basically my favorite bar in Philly. Listen, Chris went to, and I'm not, this is not hyperbole. This is not homerism. I think Bidia might be the best. Pizzeria in the country. And I know Bob and Barbra's is the best bar in the country. I did it right. You did it right. Yeah. And at Bob and Barbaras, maybe I've been like my fourth beer, but like, you didn't do the special? They had, no, I didn't because I'd already been drinking. And then like, so then they had this, the special is a shot in a beer for a very low price with wonderful jazz, great company, great bar. Well, it wasn't jazz night. It was karaoke night.

It was basically this divey bar on South Street in Philly. And it's great. But like, it was karaoke night. And at first, you know, you sometimes when you're there and you just want to kind of be talking to the person you're with, you're like, oh, man, it's like quiz, is it pub quiz night or is it karaoke night? And you're like, that's a bummer. I go to the bathroom and I hear some familiar tones as I'm relieving myself, you know, and I come out. Give me a picture, Chris. Don't hold back. Well, the tones are not the kind of tones you usually hear during karaoke. And that is because a five-foot-eight guy wearing a fraternity sweatshirt was singing Carmina Barana.

And as it went on, it became like, oh, this is really happening. Like, I'm not dreaming this. I didn't hit my head in the bathroom. And I just got like, the Philly came out in me. And I was just like, let's go. While this guy was singing. Was it Nick Casillanos?

No. But I will say that that feeling of feeling like I'm dreaming of, I can't believe what I'm seeing, carried over as I arrive back to my mom's house. I said, mom, let's watch the Oscars. And it was weird. It was real fucking weird what happened. So why don't you give me your take on the Will Smith Slap Season 2? Okay. So first of all, thank you to everyone. It does warm our hearts that I think it seems like a large percentage of our audience had the same first thought that we all did, which was some version of WTF. And the second thought was, let's just take a moment and shout out Andy and Chris for their

indelible coverage of the atrocious NBC miniseries, the slap. So thank you. We've gotten some Photoshop's. We've gotten a lot of references, some emails. We appreciate it. I guess it's important to take this moment out because the Oscars were pretty awful. Yeah, I thought they stopped.

Without this moment. And then with this moment, it turned into something really ugly and tawdry and gross that leaves me like a lot of people just feeling super weird this morning about the business that we are in and the traditions that we are supporting. I think specifically just in terms of a moment, that was one of the most shocking, unexpected events that we have seen. Certainly, it's not just Oscar history, Hollywood history, pop culture history. often I find ourselves, you know, on this pod, we're bemoaning just the lack of spontaneity in the world and how everything is micromanaged and curated. And, you know, sometimes we talk about this when we're doing industry talk, right? That like, oh, this Kim Masters expose about

what's really going on behind the scenes of Mission Impossible. That's refreshing because this stuff never gets out anymore. Yeah, right. Especially in the social media era, everything is the veneer, right? So to have actual chaos in our face was, bracing. I mean, Bill, on his podcast, Bill and Jimmy referenced the Mike Tyson biting of Vanderholyfield's ear moment, which was also one of those, like, wait, excuse me, what's happening? We're all sharing this mass delusion together. So that was insane. I'm almost faltering to find words because what the fuck. So, okay, let's take one step back, which is that this was clearly a very fraught and charged night for Will Smith,

to be on the cusp of being anointed and being welcomed into the club, which is something that all actors, not all, but many actors clearly covet and dream about, to be placed on a throne in the front of the arena, knowing that all the cameras are on you throughout the night, not just because you're in that, like the hosts are going to talk to you's area,

but that the narrative of the night, is going to be determined by whether you win or lose a trophy three hours from now. Right. So that already felt a little fraught. And he already seemed a little edgy or punchy, like kind of not loving the vibes early. And then Chris Rock just made kind of a, just made a comment, right? It just made a joke. Uh-huh.

How many people in our audience even got the reference to the 30-year-old Demi Moore film, G.I. Jane. Do you think that's a thing that people were like... Well, my wife got the reference. She loves G.I.J. She's not in our audience, though, as we've known before. Great point. Great point. When it happened, what did you think was happening?

Did you think that it was a bit? So one thing I would recommend, I had like a real, like, my brain has split into, and one brain is, like, in this room with my 80-year-old mother who doesn't, like, literally was just like the TV screen glitched, that's all. Like, she didn't get it. She didn't understand that it happened. I think she thought it was a joke, but the fact that Chris Rock kind of like miraculously just like played it off.

I can't believe what Chris Rock did. And within the seven second delay was back to I'm presenting Best Doc. And I just want to say for, you know, whatever you're like, I think what Chris Rock did for the most part was like, for better or for worse, like in the vein. of roast comedy that somehow we've decided that that's what we wanted award shows and like since you know like Jervase and Amy Schumer I don't remember

what Lasker hosts did like in the days before I can remember but like I mean like Crystal just sang and dressed up yeah or like they would make like funny jokes about the movies but they would be corny and there would be like you just kind of be like come on man to get to the awards but like this thing where it's like we're going to kind of hold

a mirror up to Hollywood and make them kind of see themselves and like throw burns at people I guess like we just decided that that was going to be the motif that we were going to go with, but it obviously doesn't work. You know, it's obviously not something the people who are you counting on being there, particularly appreciate. I also thought what he said about SummerSoul was fucked up.

He made that joke about like, it's Quest 114 white guys. Joseph Patel is a friend of ours and I'm so fucking happy for Joseph for winning an Oscar. And Chris Rock didn't even like bother to learn Penelope Cruz's name or like figure out like when he gave an award away, that it wasn't Quest 11 for white guys. Like, that was bullshit. You know what I mean? Like, it was lazy.

And the joke he made about Jada was lazy too. What happens next, though, is nuts. You know what I mean? It is, it is nuts. And I know that there's, like, speculation that it was staged or whatever. I don't think it was staged. It was.

I mean, I think you're right to point out that Chris Rock, I mean, the impossibility of the two things. One, standing in front of, I've been on stage at that theater. I'm not Chris Rock. It was not of the Oscars. But that is a huge theater.

It is incredibly daunting to be in that room. And obviously, he's a professional comedian. He doesn't get phased by stuff like that. But it's never easy to get up in the crowd and do stuff, you know, do your bits and with all the cameras on you. To get hit in the face and then keep going, that was next level. He almost seemed more freaked out that Will was screaming at him from the crowd than he did by getting slapped in the face. Because there was chaos. And it was chaos.

And the only reason any of this works, this whole facade of like good times and good cheer celebrating art is because people don't do that. Everybody smiles and claps and gets paid at the end of it, right? And this was a shocking shattering of that illusion. You know, I can't. The thing that I'm kind of fucked up about is, look, I like, I've always liked Will Smith. Fresh Prince days. Like, he's from Philly. Like, I wanted him to win best actor for King Richard because I thought King Richard was really good and I thought he was fantastic in it.

He seems like a pretty complicated guy with some troubles, honestly, at the moment. And the year that he's had in the media, and I mean, I don't even fully understand the Red Table Talk, but it seems a little intense, you know, and he seemed a little on edge from that anyway. And that's a lot to put on anybody's shoulders, let alone a giant celebrity. So I understand all that and I have empathy for the person. But to assault someone on stage on live TV and then go back to your seat and chuckle and then win an award and give a really kind of troubling speech about how you are a vessel for love. Yeah. And then go rap along to Miami at the Vanity Fair Party while people are posing for selfies. Something is deeply off here.

It's just off. And it's not for us to police it. It's just upsetting. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't have any hyperbole for the exchange because I don't really understand what happened. And I don't understand how people felt about it yet. Or like, I don't really even know what I'm supposed to feel about it.

Here's what I do have hyperbole for. I don't think they know how to do the Oscars anymore. And I actually like the Oscars as like an idea. And I think it's historically relevant. I think it's a cool way of looking at movie history. I think it's an interesting conversation to have about good films that we have now, extended from like a three or four month conversation to a seven month conversation.

But they can't get fucking accounting right. Like they can't get the hosting right. They can't figure out the tone. Like two, three, three out of the last like four or five of these shows have been pretty bad, you know, in some way or another. And I just don't know whether or not like, yeah, I guess you should keep doing them. You know, 13 million people watch this one. It is interesting to talk about.

I think it's cool that a bunch of movies that maybe people hadn't really heard of. My mom had never heard of Cota when I got home on Friday. She was like, what's Cota? I was like, it's going to win Best Picture. But there just seems to be something like irreparably damaged with this process. And most of all is that they don't know how to like engineer any kind of sincerely touching or like entertaining moments that aren't disasters. Do you know what I mean? like, Pacino and De Niro didn't even talk during the Godfather thing.

Like, honestly, I, I guess, like, there was a way in which, like, Lady Gaga was, like, incredibly sweet and tender with Liza Minnelli. I thought that was a pretty uncomfortable moment, personally, but, like, it was cool how she rolled with it. Yeah. I just don't like, who's fucking minding the store? You know what I mean? Who's, like, that's a good idea.

Let's get Kossner up there and just let him be like, I saw a porno down the street from here when I was seven. and psych it was once upon a time in the West. I would like to take this moment on Mike to formally apologize to the producers of past Oscars for my non-stop railing against like montages and packages and tributes. All those Oscars were better.

I was wrong. There's a reason why no one listened to me or maybe they just shouldn't be listening to any of us because that stuff worked. the unforced errors are just jaw-dropping. Now, I think we should save a little time to talk about, like, the actual winners and maybe what it means or what's good about it because for some people, hopefully for our buddy Joey Patel, like last night was a magical special night that they will never forget for Questlove to. Like, that's wonderful. And winning an Oscar should still mean something significant for people who have devoted so much time to their craft and to their art.

And I don't want to belittle any of that. But, I mean, it was disastrous in a really, really bizarre way. So you cut technical categories and yet then shoehorn them in anachronistically into the evening and still run almost four hours long. So why did you do any of that? You nominate 10 movies because you feel like that's important. Yet none of the 10 are the movies that you think you've expanded the field to include so that more people watch the show. So Spider-Man isn't nominated.

You just nominate movies like Don't Look Up, which is universally loathed to the point where the hosts are just dunking on it with impunity from the stage. You then, if you've nominated 10 movies, a majority of which are unfamiliar, I think, to the common film goer, at least prior to this whole award season. and then don't use any stage time to educate people about the movies. You know, this is probably something that I've criticized in the past, and also I've been wrong about, which was in years past when you have someone who is either involved in the film or loved the film, stand on stage and say 45 seconds, why Drive My Car is a masterful movie that you should check out what it speaks to.

Instead, it's just like another montage that if you're watching on delay, you accidentally fast forward through. You've learned nothing about the movies you're supposedly celebrated. If you're watching on delay, which I was. You do things like, okay, well, take time for special anniversaries. Godfather, 50th anniversary. You don't let Pacino and De Niro speak. Yeah.

Right? You celebrate the 28th anniversary of Pulp Fiction's win for original screenplay with three of the actors doing a bit. What are you doing? Why does that idea even make it onto the stage? And I'm not saying it's not fun to see. Travolta and Uma Thurman dancing. But you know what?

Didn't make it on this stage was Denzel Washington giving Samuel Jackson an award. That was the night before. You know what I mean? Also, the camera, I don't know who was directing the show. Maybe they were still freaked out on adrenaline. But like, Uma Thurman and John Travolta are dancing on stage. Is it corny? Yes.

But is it what the moment was for? Sure. They kept cutting to my guy Hamaguchi in the crowd. Like, show them dancing on stage. I want to see the director of my favorite film of the year on screen as much as possible, yes. Yeah. But maybe not precisely at that moment.

And then, if I may, Chris, if I could just speak for the Daddingtons here, they wisely, so backstory, I think people know this, but, you know, you submit, for example, for original song, they submit the song they'd like to be considered for the award. And so back when Enkanto was, in Disney was like saying which one of our songs will put forward, they got together with Lynn Manuel and they decided they're going to put forward Dos Or Gitas, which is a beautiful little ballad in the middle of the movie that isn't really narrative, but it kind of like lifts the spirit of the thing. And that makes sense. That's kind of an Oscar movie, Oscar winning song that just fits the mold. They put that forward. Then a couple

weeks later, all the other songs on the soundtrack go viral, including we don't talk about Bruno, which thanks to TikTok goes to number one in the country. And it's a phenomenal song, but is not eligible because they didn't submit it. Okay. That's too bad. Wouldn't have been nice to have that song performed in the Oscars. They're like, oh, okay, we're just going to do it anyway.

Smart. The only, maybe the only smart thing the producers did, we're going to do it. Then they're like, let's do the thing that all the parents have told the kids

is going to be on the broadcast and make sure that it airs 10 minutes before 10 p.m. on the East Coast. This is such a fucking specific critique. But then, listen, I'm not the only one with this.

I promise you. I'm sure you're right. I thought you were going to make a universal point about production and you're like... Here, let me get a little more specific for you, Chris. All people want, small sample size, all the children in my household want

is to see the real actors who do the voices in Enkanto sing the best song in the movie. What they didn't ask for was an impromptu Megan the Stallion verse about how Encanto is showing out at the Oscars. What the fuck? Okay?

No disrespect to Megan the Stalian. I can't wait for them We talk about Bruno than you were by Will Smith's slapping Chris Rock in front of millions of people My children didn't see that. Did you shield them from it? No, they weren't up late watching with me.

Oh, okay. Okay. But I did show them the Bruno thing. And I am not attempting to disrespect Megan the Stallion. You better not. All respect to the Stallion. I am a fan. But that wasn't the song.

You know, it's like Snow White and Rob Load duetting 35 years ago. It's like, no one actually wanted this. And here you are giving it to us. And it was just so odd. And it was just a series of moments like that that just felt not just out of touch, but just out of whack.

Like, you could feel the flop sweat. You could feel the flop sweat. And when it's often, I think I have gained a new appreciation for the challenges and the potential pleasures of a mediocre Oscar broadcast. When Amy Schumer came out for the second monologue next, yeah. When she came out for the second opening monologue, first of all, great call. Great call to everyone. We definitely want two opening monologues.

But her monologue was one comedian telling jokes. That was great. That may have been the highlight. It was all downhill from there, right? That was fine. Do that. Let her host. Whatever.

I'm still like, I'm reeling from here the real, the real horror of last night. It was. Did you find yourself moved or a fan? I mean, obviously, Cota Big Winner, Chastain, got her moment. Were you surprised or moved by any of the particular winners? I thought Questlove was awesome, by the way.

Yeah, I was thrilled about Questlove. It wasn't moving, and they shunted most of them off of the main broadcast, but like, Dune really is an impressive technical achievement. I thought that was really cool that it won so many awards. I really, really was happy, drive my car won international feature. I was charmed and, again, just, you know, when I was reminded that it was nominated for Best Director to. Jane Campion is a great artist. Great artists don't need Oscars to validate their existence, but it's pretty cool when one slips through. they win. I thought that was really nice. I am torn because I like Jessica Chastain as an actor.

I've never met a single person who likes that movie or even who loves that performance, but she's a good actor who deserves to be recognized as such. I thought Troy Cotser's speech was a really lovely moment. And I thought he was the best thing in Coda, a movie which I am incredulous was nominated for Best Picture, let alone one best picture. I don't see any benefit in like, exercising it because it's a nice it's a nice film it's a nice film um and i think my incredulity probably circles back to the larger point that you know that that that Sean and Amanda and Joanna and people and you and people in the big picture have been wrestling with more strenuously than i I can as a as a tourist in the cinema world which is what is this and what is it for you know I don't I don't understand it and you know I was chatting with Sean about this and he was like Andy Greenbook one three years ago and Cota is not Greenbook

but in terms of something relatively lightweight, winning something that, you know, I just, you look at some of the other movies in that category, and I just don't, I don't understand. But I guess the voters who watched it, that made them feel the best and making people feel things is still a huge part of the game. We fell all sorts of things last night.

I think it's worth noting, and I don't mean this in like a, like a suss, golden globesy kind of way, but Apple has a lot of money. Apple has a lot of money. And I'm not saying they bought this victory, but I am saying that Apple had the resources once it became possible

to get this movie in front of as many influential people as possible and to bang the drum louder than a lot of, not a lot of the other candidates, but then they could be noisy. I guess it's funny because I'm like, in my head, I'm like, I mean, in my head, I'm almost like, you know, will the Will Smith thing overshadow Coda winning, which it will?

But I also in that, I don't mean to sound like a faux innocent who's just like, oh, like this could have been. Cota's big moment in the sun and everybody would have turned on Cota after like on Tuesday, but instead they're all gabbing about Will Smith. You know, it's not, that's not how the world works. I think I'm more just like, I don't know. I'm just, I've kind of, it's beyond cynicism. It's kind of just like exhaustion.

It's like maybe, maybe like people shouldn't have to campaign for these things for half a year. You know what I mean? Like maybe like this amount of like scrutiny on people's lives just makes them really fucking tense. I don't know. I don't have any like massive takeaways or or like judgments on it. The takeaway is we're broken. This is broken. This is a fracturing.

this is like the ice shelf breaking off of Antarctica and falling to the ocean. You're like, I understand that something gravely horrible is happening here, but I'm not fully sure how it affects my life yet, although I believe you're in Philadelphia. It's 33 degrees there today, and it's going to be 70 on Wednesday. It's not affecting my life at all. So, but what I mean is those montages that I used to make fun of, they're like, people dancing in movies, let's remember that.

The goal of them was collective joy, right? These were shared experiences that maybe even not a majority, but a large number of people in the country could connect to and feel. And they worked. I mean, you see Fred Astaire Ginger Rogers dancing, or you see Han Solo and Chewy going to Hyperdriver, whatever was in these montages, and you would feel something.

And part of the good feeling was that other people was feeling that too. And that might be gone. There was something that in its place, it feels defensive, It feels sour. It feels bitter. Zach Snyder entering the speed force or whatever that is. You know, people making fun from the stage about movies that people worked hard on that nobody saw. But whose fault is that?

But we're celebrating in this hermetically sealed bubble where you can get on stage and slap people and nobody cares. I mean, it felt end-timesy, honestly. And I don't say that because, you know, to be hyperbolic or to say that, like, movies are over because there were great movies, nominated last night. They're great movies coming this year. But I think that you're, I think there is something deeper here that I wish could be addressed, which is this way of doing it. It's not working. It's not working. It has all become so, so cynical. And so, so frontward, so front-facingly cynical, right? Just the, the, the grind of it, of the campaign season, of the, of the work that these people did to be there. And, you know, like Jessica Chastain, like,

probably a lovely person and a wonderful actor. But then she's up there being like saying some beautiful things about understanding in the world and then saying just like Tammy Faye. I'm like, okay. Really? You won the award. Just say something nice about marginalized people. You know, you're not campaigning anymore.

Right. It's over. It was a bummer. We could put a pin in it there. I want to talk to you a little bit about Atlanta before we get into this interview with Hero. first episode starts there's no Donald Glover

there's no Brian Tyree Henry there's no Lakeith Stanfield there's no Zazi Beats like what's going on as you get to the end and you're like well that was amazing it was called three slaps

it's a I guess a bottle episode or a what would we even call that in the parlance of I would call it episode is when you know it like it's basically like a short story that goes off of the the Atlanta anthology, I suppose. I mean, a bottle episode traditionally is just

when they used one set to save money that they spent on other episodes. To me, this is an Atlanta episode. Okay. Meaning, we're cursing a lot this episode, so I'm not going to stop myself. They don't give a fuck. It's incredible.

It is so perfect for a show that, and we allude to this in our talk with hero, that just from Jump has defined itself by its creation. creative horrors confidence that they know what's best for their show and their story and that their audience will come along with them. And it's breathtaking. Four years between seasons. And you have an episode that false starts once with unfamiliar characters into an entire episode with unfamiliar characters. And then finally teasing us with a glimpse of Donald Glover

in the very final seconds, it's such a flex. And it's such a flex. And as Hero tells us in the interview, you guys will hear it. Like, it had to be a great episode. And it was a great episode of Atlanta. Yeah. I mean, for those who don't know, I think by now, a lot of people have probably read up on the real life case that the majority of three slaps addresses, which is this family called The Hearts,

who I believe were in Washington State. And their story very similarly lines up with what happens in the episode. Yeah, I thought it was really interesting to hear Hero talk. about wanting Atlanta to be viewed as a complete statement. So while, like, these first two episodes didn't immediately, like, interlock, you know, as, like, a coherent kind of, like, two episodes thought necessarily, they kind of showed the breadth, scope, and power of this show, because they could go from doing what they did in the first episode in three slaps

to the second episode, which I think, I think of as, like, classic Atlanta, which is, like, this sort of, like, comedy found in the weirdness of everyday life? I mean, immediately you're back in Atlanta, and I think the season's argument, if one could infer one from only two episodes, is that the real-time lived experience of humor, surrealism, and horror

that is life, particularly black life, in a place like Atlanta, is not limited to real estate. It's not just geographically where that happens. That is what life is for particularly these characters, but you could extrapolate larger what black life is in America and now this season in the world, right? So it takes it takes it on the road in a, you know, it's challenging its own paradigm in this season. And I think that's kind of exciting in keeping with what the show, what the show has always done.

But I think the other thing that I think is worth noting that sets Atlanta apart for all the influence that hopefully it's had on our discourse and also on other TV shows is that Atlanta just isn't about plot. Like, I know we all care about Alfred's career or earns emotional journey or whatever, but it's just not about plot. And it's so exciting to me that it's not about plot. So much of TV, and particularly in the hour-long space, and I understand why, but it's so much of it is just like, well, what is the question that the show is asking that we can answer incrementally and that we can keep people hooked on? And the freedom in being free from that is just so evident in these episodes. You know what I mean? There is no question, one question that it's asking. There's no

answer that we're watching for. In the second episode when Darius is like, oh, are you and Earned Back Together? It's like, oh, is this, is there a will they or won't they? Like, is that a thing that we watch the show for? I mean, not really. We're just happy to have them around experiencing life around each other again. And that, I wish that was more imitated. I don't know if, that said, I don't know if other shows could pull it off to the degree that the show does. very, I mean, like, you know, Hero talks about this, but I think it's a very specific group of people and that they've found a way to make a show

about this very specific group of people in a way that I don't think is really imitable. You know, I don't think you could be like, hey, we're going to do Atlanta, but this. I mean, we've given props to shows that I think did do, like reservation dogs, for instance, I think borrowed some things from Atlanta in terms of its sensibility,

but, and made a show about a very specific group of people in a very specific place. But I would still say that Atlanta has just a completely unique sensibility. Yeah. And it's a sensibility that can be expressed in so many different ways. It's in Macquarious's face when they hand him a plate of microwave, essentially raw chicken, right, with his new family. But it's also in Alfred's face when he is more comfortable and safe than he's ever been

in a prison in Amsterdam. And yet when he goes into a hotel lobby, everyone is in blackface or in a show. You know, you never know where the danger is coming from. And there's a certain kind of expression that a lot of the characters have in reaction to the circumstances, which is just this incredible, indelible combination of just like, what the fuck? But also, yeah, of course, you know, it settles right back in and you're right back in there with it. I got to say just as a as much as I just said all that stuff about not caring where the story is going or not answering questions about plot,

like I was very happy and it was very canny of FX to put both episodes up because I thought three slaps. Yeah, I was wondering what you thought about that decision. Well, I think it was necessary and I think it was really welcome because you just, as much as you admire the decision to be like, we're not going to put the characters in the first episode after four years. Come on. We want to see the characters.

It's not, we admire the art, but let's have, why not have both? And I think that there's a freedom now in, you know, the way networks and streaming services are operating where that's just not a big deal. So for as much as I respected and was discomfited in all the best Atlanta ways by three slaps, I loved seeing our pals again. Yeah, me too. I mean, Lakeith Stanfield and Brian Tyree Henry are two of my favorite actors, full stop in anything. I get excited when I just see their names and credits.

And they just don't disappoint, you know. Like they just know these characters and they inhabit them even better than Darius is wearing that old coat. And, you know, the whole storyline of like follow the mystery of the universe into a situation that may or may not be like Tupac Shakur's life leaving ceremony. That's the show. You know, that seems to me, I don't know, we've never been privy to it, but that seems like the Glover brothers and their loyal writing staffs like process. Like, let's just follow this and see where it goes. And it's exhilarating. So we can wrap it up there.

We can get into our interview with Hero Marai. He talked to us about Atlanta. He talked to us about Station 11 and the making of the undertaking of making two seasons of Atlanta back to back, which he's in the process of doing. It's a really cool conversation. We were so happy to finally have Hero on the show. Andy, I will talk to you on Thursday. Happy Moon Night Week. Happy Moon Night Week to you, buddy.

Yeah. I wish we could celebrate it. together. We are produced as always by Kai and McMullen. We'll talk to you on Thursday. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's all.

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Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak. Got that right. Andy and I are now joined by Hero Marai, who is, I don't even know if it's arguable, is probably the best director working on television right now. He's responsible for, take it. We'll give you a rubble. Hero, welcome to the watch.

Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a long time coming, and we're so excited to talk to you about these first Atlanta episodes for season three and so much more. My first question is pretty simple is, what have you been up to for the last couple of years? Because you've worked on, obviously, Station 11. We talked a lot on this pot about your work on Station 11.

You've worked on Atlanta very, very closely. You know, I don't know if you worked on this new season of Barry, but you did several, like a lot of work on Barry in the past. I've just been like kind of wondering, like, how did you kind of divide up your life over the last couple of years as you've worked on this stuff, which all seems to be coming out at the same time? Also, there was a pandemic. Oh, and also there was a pandemic.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the pandemic definitely threw everything for a loop. I mean, you know, timing was, it was just, it was an odd thing because we started shooting the Station 11 pilot before the pandemic at the end of 2019. And, you know, we had finished season two of Atlanta 2018, which is, you know, a long time ago now. But at the time, we were like, oh, you know, we have some years off. We'll shoot this pilot. it and then we'll presumably start shooting season three in 2020 was our original plan. And we're supposed to leave for Europe in the March, March 2020, but like three weeks

before we were supposed to we got to call a bit, hey, maybe just lay low for a little bit, feel it out, you know, wait a month. And then that just turned into, you know, a lot of like sourdough bread making and, you know, just hanging tight at the house. And then, yeah, it pushed a full year. So we didn't start shooting until 2021 March. And then ever since then, I've just been, you know, I was on the road for all of last year. We were in Europe for like three, four months.

And then we flew back to Atlanta. And we stayed in Atlanta for six months. And then we finally got back last December. And I just been editing straight, basically. And that's because you guys shot season three and four concurrently, right? So you went back to Atlanta for season four. Back to back. Yeah, exactly.

I don't know if you got a chance to look at this. Chris and I were talking about this Hollywood Reporter article on the podcast last week, but about how Tom Cruise has basically bullied Mission Impossible 7 and 8 through Europe during the last two years, including like bribing the king of Finland to let him shoot there. And like renting a cruise ship so that everybody could stay on the coast. It also decided to shoot a large action seat, like start production in northern Italy in early 2020. So I guess you haven't read it. I wondered if it was a similar experience for you guys.

guys, you know, just like every country you went to, you're like, don't you know who we are? Let's see if we can work around these regulations and restrictions. No, it was more like, like, hi, have you heard of Atlanta? It's a show and effects. I mean, because I think there's a lot of, it was interesting what countries have received our show and what has, you know, what country has, just because of how streaming works, it's always a hit or miss. Everyone in Netherlands is like, oh, yeah, that's part of the Hulu bundle. Right, of course, yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. But yeah, it was strange. You know, just every place we went was slightly different. And, you know, we've always been a very kind of scrappy show. You know, we still kind of shoot it like an indie movie. So, you know, in some ways it was the worst thing that we could have tried to make during the pandemic because we just didn't have a lot of control around locations, you know, around real people. But, yeah, we scraped back, you know, somehow we got through it.

So one of the most distinct things about the show here, obviously, is just how close-knit you guys seem to be as a creative unit. Obviously, Donald and his brother, Stephen, and the actors, and you and Stephanie, and much of the team seems like it's been there from day one. The writer's room, I think, has been pretty consistent as well. How do you maintain that level of connection, consistency when you have basically three years off? What was so remarkable to us, among the many things about the show returning was just like, oh, here's Atlanta again, and it's absolutely 100% Atlanta.

You know, there, it did, you could not feel the four years. That's good to hear. That's good to hear because we were nervous. Well, so were there moments where you're like, wait, do we still have access to this third rail of electricity to power this machine? I mean, what was it like regrouping? That's a long time apart. It is a long time. I mean, too, you know, I think I didn't even realize how special this sort of group of people were until I, you know, stepped out and it came back in.

You know, I think we just have kind of a, this is a boring non-end. but we just kind of have chemistry, you know. So every time we kind of get in the room, we start making something, there's like a, there's an energy and, you know, we keep working on the thing and it always ends up interesting, even if it's not what we expected to be. And so, and you know, like you said, we've,

this, I think it's a rare situation where, you know, down to crew members, we've had the same people working on the shows from season one. So I think a lot of, everybody has a little bit of ownership and a lot of like emotional, attachment to the show. And so every time we get back together, it just kind of feels like we kind of click it to our old dynamics.

And we kind of get to do it the way we've always done it. You know, we do keep making it more difficult for ourselves. Like going to Europe or, you know, now we have four movie stars in the show. And, you know, just the scale gets bigger. Doing a season in Europe seems like a fun idea to like say goodbye on in 2018. Like, see you guys a little bit. We'll take a little vacation. What could happen?

What could go wrong? I have a sort of weird, a courty question, but I was wondering whether or not, the pandemic aside, and I know it's hard to think in those terms, but whether or not, you detected any European sensibilities creeping into your work

when you were, like, making this season and whether or not, like, I don't mean explicitly, like, did you watch a lot of European films or did you find, but did you actually feel like it was different shooting over there and working in that environment.

100%. Yeah? I mean, that was one of the things I was nervous about is like so much of the show is about the city of Atlanta and the aesthetic of the city of Atlanta. You know, like, it's a, Atlanta's a very weird place. Like, it's beautiful, but it's also like got a lot of identity crises and, you know, aesthetically very, like, strange, you know, and I think that's kind of the heart of the show. So when we started shooting in Europe and all of a sudden we're in these, like,

ornate, you know, music venues and, you know, Buildings that been around for more than 120 years, it automatically kind of made it something else. And Christian Springer, my DP and I, you know, he didn't do the European section, but when we did season two, we had this moment where, you know, we came back from season one knowing what the show was.

And then it took us like three days to remember how to make the show. You know, it's, it's such a, specific rhythm, you know, and I think it happens every time you take a break, but you start framing up the first shot on Brian, Tyree Henry, and then you go, is this what Atlanta feels like? Right. Because it's not, you know, there's no like, there's no like dogma or like, you know, rules to how we make the show, we just kind of feel it out. And so, you know, when we're in Europe, we kept trying to find, like, how does Atlanta feel when we're in Amsterdam or London or Paris, you know?

it's such an interesting this whole topic is so interesting to me because I guess one of the projects of season three, I mean we've only seen two episodes so we can't presume too much, but it's the idea of what is Atlanta almost spiritually, like what does it represent? What does it mean? Obviously, on a meta level, as a TV

show, can it go anywhere, can it tell any story? But also what the city means to people if you remove the people from the city. It makes me think about how obviously Donald and Stephen had a deep attachment and knowledge of the city, but then when you and some of the other collaborators came on who didn't know the city, I believe probably some of the magic would come from that, right,

of like a deep, deep bone in knowledge of a place with new eyes on it. So now you go to Amsterdam where unless I'm, you know, other than maybe some URL misadventures when you were in college, like I don't know who involved in the production like truly, truly knew Amsterdam or the other cities that you went to, you know? And so that how do you find that balance of like insider knowledge and spiritual truth in a place that you're just arriving to scout dirt for the first time during prep? Yeah. I think that's true.

I mean, you know, I think we try to not speak on these places as if we know it, you know, because we don't. You know, I think a lot of the stories came from Donald touring Europe with, you know, a lot of his creative directors and brothers and, you know, his experience just being there. So we just try to be true and honest to those feelings as possible, just kind of the inherent sort of fish out of water experience and cultural clash and just, the feeling of bringing kind of black American music to a, you know, a place that's not, it's context, it's proper context, you know. And yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, it took a minute, you know, but, uh, but we just sort of like found a rhythm for it. And we just kind of accepted that season three was, uh, was kind of our sort of, you know, concept album, uh, season where we just kind of did something a little bit different from whatever came out the other

and it was going to be, you know, our intent. Did you find yourself drawing from different influences because of that? If it's a concept album, like, did you and Christian watch different stuff before going over there? Did you think about different filmmakers than maybe you have in the past or have a different kind of eye when you were over there? Yeah, I mean, you know, we're always watching references just for inspiration, even when we shot at season two. But, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't think we were deliberately trying to do a, a French new wave thing or a neorealist thing over over there. We just kind of like, you know, we just look for kind of specific key references, you know.

Oh, and the DP that shot the European sessions, his name was Stephen Murphy. Oh, okay. He's an Irish D.P. Who, you know, had a lot more familiarity with Europe than we did. So that was helpful. I definitely always over-emphasize this, but I do love it when, you know, the sort of the meta reading of the show mirrors what's happening in the show. And when Atlanta premiered, Tunnel Glover was known.

People recognized Brian Tyree Henry from Broadway, et cetera, et cetera. But as you said a moment ago, a few years later, now you have four movie stars on the show in Europe. And I guess it kind of matches the narrative of the series where Paperboy is doing well, at least doing better now, right? And it's not the same hardscrabble existence that we saw two seasons ago. what is the creative process like working with these four people who've obviously gone through a lot of experiences together and have a great deal of familiarity with each other. But in the interim, especially in these last four years, have gone. I mean, Donald went to Star Wars. Brian is in the Marvel universe now since the Fox Disney merger, so is Ozzy. So anyway, these guys have all gone on these journeys and now they're back together to work on the show and re-inhabit these characters. What was that creative process like? it felt so good. It's just, you know, I honestly, you know, I hadn't been in the same room with those guys, you know,

since season two. I've seen them, you know, on and off, having lunches and things, but not together working on something together in a room. And I think that, you know, I was sort of nervous, like, it was going to feel like to be back again. You know, we've all kind of done different things and, you know,

grown, you know, but being back in that same room, it just felt like we're doing season one again. You know, I think because all of us kind of learn how to do this job together on Atlanta, it just, if there was kind of a homecoming feeling, I mean, it also helped that, you know, it was in a pandemic and we had none of us had seen humans for a year and a half. And so that we just starved for sort of human interaction. You're like, guys, I have so much bread. Does anybody want some?

So much bread. So much bread. But day one, you know, we all, kind of, we're all dressed up, you know, on location and people were in character, but it just, it just felt like scrappy again. You know, we were kind of making it up as we go along and riffing off each other. And, you know, I think it also speaks to the fact that Atlanta has always been very much a reflection of where we are, all the writers and actors, career-wise. And, you know, I say season two is, is, you know, a reaction to us having an existential meltdown from the response of season one, you know. Season one, we made it in a vacuum and we didn't think anybody would watch it.

So when people liked it, season two became the sort of, you know, us in a funhouse mirror, just trying to figure out what it means to make something when people have expectations from us. and all the actors are getting stopped at the airport, you know, in season one, nobody care, but now they can't just walk. They can't walk through the airport in Atlanta anymore, you know. And so I think it's, Atlanta, it's, that's the word. Even, you know, season three, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a place where we got to kind of come home and be honest with each other and, you know, work out a lot of the stuff that's happened between seasons and season three didn't feel any different.

You know, it's interesting to hear you talk about the making of this show because you sound, at least compared to Donald and some of his public statements, a little bit more, I don't know, anxious or neurotic about it. And like Donald, you know, Donald in a very, like, I think, cool way is like, we're going after the sopranos, you know, like that's what we're trying to be compared to. And I was curious whether or not, A, if that's his indoor voice too, like when you guys are hanging out in the office and he's just like, hey, you're no big deal, but you got to be better than that. the Sopranos today? Or like if it's, I mean, do you, do you look at that as like a challenge? Like, what's that dialogue like? Oh, I mean, yeah, for sure. I mean, yes, my inside neurotic voice is, my inside voice is definitely more neurotic than Donald's inside of course. That's our kind of our dynamic.

But at the same time, you know, we knew when we got back to shooting season three and four, it was such a massive, you know, undertaking to shoot two double seasons back to back. We, you know, we did go like, all right, we're going to go back. We have to try to make this one of the best things ever, you know, like we did have those conversations. And that was kind of the creative challenge walked into it. Like, I don't want to come back and just do season one and two again. Let's have like a complete, you know, thought. Like, let's have season one through four feel like a complete thought and a complete work and have it hopefully last, you know. And so, you know, Our missions are always big.

You know, I, I, but that being said, you know, when, when every time Donald makes a statement, like, only Spranos can't touch us, I go, well, we better make this good then, I guess. Thanks for that, you know. You hear the quote and then you fast and furious emergency break. Do you turn back to the edit bay? Yeah, exactly. I want to ask you a little bit about tone, which is something that Atlanta does masterfully. I think it's extremely unique. And particularly the tone of the season premiere, three slaps, which, again, maybe the most Atlanta thing of all is to come back after four years and not show us the main characters, which that sounds like Donald's outside voice writ large, right?

You're going to wait a little bit longer. But the tone of the episode, and you've done these kinds of tonal balancing acts before, like Teddy Perkins being a great example of it. But, you know, it's realistic, it's surreal, and it's horrific all at once. And in fact, within the episode, you have different layers of that because there's the opening with the two men on the boat that actually has a horror ending before you go into it, a more ripped from the headlines type of horror. When you get brought into the process, and I'm not even sure what stage of that would be with the script writing, but you see the story, you hear their plans.

How do you adjust and plan, basically, to get to pull off an episode? episode like that, which it goes in so many different directions that there are moments when you almost start to worry that it's all spinning apart. How could you possibly land this? And then it does, you know, in a very devastating and uncomfortable way. I mean, I wish I had like a really good methodical answer to that. But it's, you know, like I said, it's it's so much about kind of alchemy of the people involved. We just kind of toss the ball back and forth and then we just see what comes out, you know. You know, we knew that. going in, you know, when they pitched me the idea of starting the season with no cast,

we knew that it was going to be, it's one of those things, right? It's like, okay, we can do that. And that's a cool stunt. But it also then that means that episode has to be kind of phenomenal. And otherwise, people be furious. We can't just form that episode in. And so, you know, we go in with a prompt of like, okay, then how do we give them all the feelings that you want out of a first episode back?

even though we're kind of holding the candy and back of seeing the same characters again. So those are all things kind of we think about as we go in, but the process is always the same. You know, Stephen who wrote the script, you know, first of all, I think Stephen is located genius. Like, his perspective is so vital to the show. Even in the darkest moments of the show,

I can hear Stephen, like, laughing quietly and gently in the background. And so that was kind of our North Star for that episode. Like, I kind of get his perspective on this real life story, you know. I mean, the free hug sign and someone says is hugs your dad. Yeah. And in the middle of that episode. Even the thought bubbles, like, the kids are having as like they're in the car. Yeah.

It's so dark. But it's, you know, and then, but, but, but, We do kind of write it first as a comedy, and then we try to kind of, you know, I think a lot of my job is kind of casting and finding an emotional through line for these characters. And then, you know, I act in the edit, or me and my editors, Isaac H.E. and Carl Ryder, we act like, you know, like arrangers, you know, like mixers. We're just kind of dialing in the tones so it doesn't feel too typical. one direction, the other, it doesn't feel too bleak, it doesn't feel too real, feels a little bit fantastic, and we just try to kind of balance it, it's a cohesive experience, you know, but, but we do know that we, you know, we go in there with a lot of different ingredients in the pot,

and hopefully by the end of it, it's like, you know, you could call it a cohesive dish. You mentioned something that I think is so vital, which was casting, and I wanted to ask about your approach to casting, because not only is it just magnificent on Atlanta, I mean, again, three slaps as an episode does not work if you don't have those kids, if you don't find the actress to play the mom, if you can't find the people who can just pull off that balancing act that we're talking about. But when we talk to our mutual friend Patrick Somerville, who's the showrunner of Station 11, he on and off the mic, you know, just continues to give you all the credit in the world, not just for your direction, but specifically for your casting, which I think

he and what you brought to that process on the pilot, which I think he says informed the series going forward in all the ways that we then praised it for. That's very sweet of Pat. You know, Pat says a lot of things and you shouldn't take a week as we're too literally. 100%. We just count 70% of it. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think, you know, the old adage of 90% of directing is casting.

I do believe in that. And specifically on Atlanta, you know, our casting director, Alexa Fogle, who is legendary. You know, she casts all the, you know, the wire and all the things where you, you know. Alexa is also the ombudsman of the watch podcast, we should say. Alexa, from her vacationing in Maine and hi, Alexa, like always sends us updates on what she thinks of what I'm saying. So she will give you feedback on this. Oh, good to know, good to know.

Hi, Alexa. But yeah, I mean, I think because we're messing, playing with different. tones, you know, there's a couple of different ways to go. You can pass people who can really execute the comedic timing of some of these jokes. You can cast people who just feel real. You can pass, cast people who are, you know, dramatic actors who can hopefully touch on the comedic timing. And it's a, it's a collage, you know. So I think the actors all have to kind of play off of each other in a right way. But I think, you know, specifically in our Atlanta episodes, as in, you know, episodes that take place in Atlanta,

we really try hard to find vocal actors. And I lean on Stephen and Donald to kind of tell me what, you know, what types of people you just don't see on television, you know, that's really familiar to them as archetypes in Atlanta. You know, I still think about there's a season one episode two character who talks to Earn about, you know, being a, meeting a friend and then having a 40 on the porch and then getting arrested by the cops for public drinking and how much you, you know, that whole monologue was written in that sort of Atlantic, Atlanta slang and wordage. And it just doesn't feel right coming out of a non-alanta person, you know. And so I think that kind of like sounds authenticity and just looking for people that feel real and don't, you have you just haven't seen on television is a big part of how we do it.

And so I learned a lot of lessons from doing the first two seasons that way. I kind of wanted to have a more general chat with you about how you're feeling about TV these days, both as somebody who watches it, but somebody who makes it. You know, you got your start. I think when Atlanta started, Andy and I still had like six or seven shows to talk about every year. You know, and now there's like six or seven shows every week. You're somebody who's obviously benefited. from getting to do a lot of cool different stuff.

Like there's a world in which a filmmaker doesn't get to make something as varied as the stuff you did on Station 11 or the stuff you did on Bury or even the stuff you did on Legion and Atlanta in their career, much less in a couple of years. But now we kind of have this environment

where your work can be seen in a lot of different contexts and a lot of telling a lot of different stories. I was kind of curious about is it fun making stuff at this time? Is it stressful? Do you find it's more difficult for to kind of figure out the signal to noise ratio

in terms of like, are people watching this? Am I doing the right thing? Like, I'm just curious where your head is at with TV these days. Yeah, I mean, it's tough. I mean, I do think, I do think, I still think there's just so much exciting stuff happening on TV. You know, just the format is evolving.

And even, you know, we talk about this on Atlanta a lot. Like, you know, we came out in 2016, and it's crazy how much television has changed since then. A lot of the things that we thought were kind of boundary pushing or form breaking at the time has kind of become a norm. And even down to the length of these episodes, like this season, our average length is 34 minutes, 35 minutes. You know, season one, we had a, you know, it was a half hour show.

So we had 26 minutes plus commercials, you know. And so this, like, this, whole season is 10 minutes longer than the previous seasons. So that changes the way we tell the story or how we structure the episodes. And I don't know, that part is really exciting to be because, you know,

you just want to kind of evolve with kind of the cultural sort of norm for, you know, how people take in the media. And that changes the way we speak too. But that said, you know, like you said, there's just so much content out right now that it is hard to keep track of

And, you know, it's, I really don't know where it's going either, you know. So I think the only thing I have is this sort of just making sure that I'm sort of emotionally engaged in the thing that I'm working on. And the only way I can filter it is if I feel like, you know, I have something to say or I add on to in the conversation and hope that it connects. I'm definitely not like, you know, I don't have the cultural sort of radar that Donald has. You know, he feels like he can kind of write the wave of culture in an interesting way. I'm just sort of like, all right, well, this, I get this, or I have something to say about this. And I just try to make things that way. It's such an interesting alchemy way you're describing between your approach and Donald's.

And as you said a moment ago, maybe that's why you guys work so well together. because to hear you talk about it here, like, and I know this is borne out by the way you actually have produced the show, but you know, you hear the words like scrappy and underdog an indie film and just kind of throwing it together and hoping that it works. And yet the other narrative of Atlanta, if you pull back a little bit, is one of just supreme self-confidence, right? That like from the sort of legendary stories of like Donald being like, yes, I'm going to make the show for UFX, but I'm going to hire my friends and we're going to have a rented house

instead of a writer's room, and we're going to give you the scripts, and this guy's going to direct it, and this is how it's going to go, down to, like, making a pilot episode where he has parents and a more conventional structure, and then throwing that all away in the second episode and the show becoming what it becomes. You know, it's an incredible swagger that has, as you point out, has been born out, and it's one of the more inspiring creative North Stars to follow, I feel like, that at the end of the day, Donald and Stephen trust each other, right, and they trust their vision for, it. What is the working relationship between these two very, very differing

mentalities? I mean, I think, I mean, you know, a lot of the things that I'm sort of like neurotically bumbling about are just stuff that I'm, I'm having to sort of handle it. That's just, you know, that's just how I operate. Right. But that's it. You know, I think, I think both things are true. You know, I think Donald, you know, what's amazing about Donald is, he's obviously so talented about some, you know, at so many different things. You know, you started

out as a writer, but he's such a gift performer and, and, you know, he has such a good grasp on culture. But I think his biggest gift, honestly, is his ability to create creative spaces, you know, and not have it be a, you know, play a factory where he just pushes

through his ideas. You know, he creates spaces with he gets the right people in the room that trust each other and gives them sort of ownership and authority to kind of invest themselves into the material. And so, you know, when he talks about, you know, when he's talking with Bombast about our show and us, you know, he's talking about just the people in the room, you know, he's really proud of the people he put together and our ability collectively to make stuff and what comes out every time. time we get together. And so, you know, I, I completely co-signed and relate to that, you know. I think it's a, it's a good room of people and I really trust everyone, you know. So, and it's, and honestly,

it's just, it's fun, you know, it's, it's a good feeling when you walk into somewhere and you're like, I had the, you know, I tossed the ball around a couple times and then, and then you walk out and you're like, oh, this is even, this is so much better than I thought it was when you first walk in, You know, it's every time someone else touches the ball, it's, I don't know what metaphor I'm using here, but. This is good. The ball finds energy. Like, it's like, it reminds me of the Phoenix Suns. Yeah.

From Calvin and Hobbs where there were no rules, but there was a ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. I mean, that's what it feels like, honestly. What you're saying about, like, finding, like, kind of this joy in seeing other people work on this stuff, did it? Leave me to a question I was curious about because there was this phenomenon, I think, more like 10 years ago. where it was like the new thing is going to be directors are going to direct entire seasons. You know, like we're going to get Carrie Fukenaga

and he's going to direct the entire season of of True Detective. And then by the time True Detective season three came along, it was kind of like, man, this is too hard. Jeremy Solnier is like not going to do the whole season. He's going to do two episodes and then he's out. And I was wondering about, you direct large chunks of Atlanta, but almost every season there's other people work on it.

Would your preference be to like do an entire, season, do you like taking certain episodes off? Is it necessary just because of the scheduling stuff? But I was always kind of curious about how that kind of got decided. Yeah. I mean, if I did any more than I do on the show right now, I wouldn't be alive. I wouldn't be here on this podcast. But also, you know, the show touches so many different tones and so many different kinds of stories. I don't think I'm right for every episode also. Yeah. And, know, like one of my favorite episodes from the past seasons is, you know, Barbershop and, and the band episode where, you know,

uh, offers on the talk show, I don't think I could have done those, you know, or if I did, it would have been, it would have been different episodes, you know. Um, and so, what I usually end up doing is go, you know, I'll go through this sort of the season list of episodes and kind of figure out what, you know, what I think is right for me and it was right for Donald. And, and then I try to, you know, find, you know, find guest directors who kind of fit, have bring their own sort of voice and see if they match up with episodes that's been written. So, you know, last, you know, for first season, we had Genix

Bravo do the Juneteenth episode. We had Amy Simons do two episodes in season two, and they both have such distinct voices, you know, voices that, you know, I, I don't, I just didn't, I didn't even know what the end product is going to be. I just knew that they were going to do something interesting with it. So I try to think of it that way, you know, I try to do what's right for the whole show and try to, you know, in the spirit of not knowing what the outcome is going to be just kind of trustful and to creative voices that I find exciting and see what comes out. Just to wrap up, I wanted to circle back to something that you touched on before, which was, you know, really only being able to work on things that you see your way.

into that you respond to. And I guess it's kind of a two-part question because I was curious what it was about Station 11, even before we understood what a pandemic was that appeal to you. Because I think before, I feel like the take that you and Pat had before was clearly the right one and it just blossomed into something even more profound and affecting afterwards, which was that this was a show about life, not about the end of the world, not about death. So I guess beginning with that Station 11 connection, I was wondering what you're connecting

with now, not necessarily specific projects, but, you know, as you probably have the opportunity to work on more and more types of things, what are you finding yourself responding to? That's a really difficult question to answer right now because that, you know, I, whenever That's why I did it, man. You thought this was going to be easy. No, I mean, you know, we're still deep, deep into the edit of Atlanta and the weird thing happens. You have a whole other season, by the way. Sorry, I always forget that.

We're going to be editing until the end of the year. Because usually when we talk to people, like, even if we've only seen one or two episodes, we know that you're still editing, but like you're done. But I just completely forgot that you have an entire other season just waiting on picks somewhere, right? Yeah. Every time I see a billboard for Atlanta, I just get, you know, it's just flopped sweat coming out of my forehead because we still have like half the season to edit. So let me edit my question.

Let's run it back. We'll ask the person sitting in front of me with the keyboard. let's make the question instead about Station 11. Like you had worked on Atlanta, you'd worked on Barry. What was it about this expansive, frankly, a little bit bizarre and risky drama that drew your eye? Yeah. I mean, you know, I think I think I'm always looking for something where I'm slightly out of my depths.

Like I love the feeling of kind of figuring out what it is as we're making it, you know? and you want to be in a sweet spot where you go, you hear the pitch and you go, this could be incredible or it could be a disaster. You know, I think it's such a, when Pat pitched me the idea, it was so ambitious and the stories were spiraling. And, you know, it's one thing to watch a 10-hour season

and kind of consume the story that way. But imagine, you know, being pitched the idea via Pat over a three-hour coffee, where he's introducing all the characters and telling you what the arcs are and where it goes and what the ambition of the show is and it's a current day pandemic show

but also a sci-fi, you know, dystopia, utopia show, but it's about art. It's also about Shakespeare. It's about this. It's about that. And so when I heard it, I was just like, I almost didn't know what to make of it, but I just felt his engagement

and his sort of a passion for it. And the other thing that really sold me is he pitched me the last few, at the time, which was like the last beat of the final episode, you know. And it was the Givan and Kirsten reunion. That was originally supposed to be the very, very last beat of the episode. And it just gave me chills, you know. The idea of it gave me chills. And even if I wasn't going to be the one executing that episode,

I just loved the idea of building something to that point. And so I just kind of leaned into the ambition and, you know, told that, you know, let's just swing for it and see what happens. And what could go wrong? It would be a smooth experience. Seems like it'll be a seamless process. Hero, man. Thank you so much for joining us.

I hope we get to talk to it again soon. Good luck with your never-ending edit. Yeah, when you edit season four, maybe like a year from now, you've taken a break, you've gone on vacation, there hasn't been another pandemic. We'd love to have you back. We could see what it looks like on the other side and talk about season four,

which we don't want spoilers because the thing about Atlanta, like, nobody wants spoilers from Atlanta. It is a universal. When people found out that we're wondering if Chris and I had screeners, people asked, have you seen Atlanta? Yes.

No one asked what happened. Yeah, nobody doesn't. Not a single person wants to know because you never know what the episode is going to be and I think that's a beautiful thing. I hope it keeps surprising. you because it certainly surprised us as we were making it. I have a feeling it well.

That's great. Thank you so much for your time, Mip. Thank you guys.