The Watch - Hollywood Dealmaking Doesn’t Stop, Even If Production Does. Plus That 'Better Call Saul Scene' and Rosario Dawson on the 'Briarpatch' Finale. | The Watch

Episode Date: April 17, 2020

Andy reflects on his time making ‘Briarpatch’ after the season finale aired this week (1:06). Production on most TV shows has ground to a halt due to COVID-19, but that doesn’t mean that Hollywood dealmaking is slowing down (15:42). We talk about that electric scene in the penultimate episode of ‘Better Call Saul’ (28:00) and give some immediate reactions to the first episode of ‘Mrs. America’ (38:33). Finally, Chris and Andy are joined by some of the cast from ‘Briarpatch’ (50:59). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Rosario Dawson and Jay Ferguson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk. now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line calling in from the bad choice road. It's Andy Greenwald. Oh, come on, man. I bought property here. I bought property here. There's only one place for this bad road to go. It's up. What is up, my man? How are you doing? Happy Thursday. Happy Thursday to you. Definitely got an email this week where someone was like, I think I did this thing you're asking about on Monday or Tuesday, but I guess I don't really know anymore. I'm not sure it matters. And I wrote, ha, ha, ha, at least we all know it's Thursday. And I wrote that yesterday. I've definitely reached the

listening to Grateful Dead Live Records part of quarantine. I didn't know if you were going to send the signal flare for help up this early in the pod. Like that's, I'm a little concerned. I'm a little concerned. I was walking around my neighborhood a little. bit yesterday, mask on, and AirPods in, just listening to Europe 72. And it was just rippling, man. I just saw the flowers budding. And I don't know. It spoke to me in a way. I was not tripping on mushrooms. I was just listening to the Grateful Dead. I guess I'm really hitting the bottom of the barrel. You weren't tripping on mushrooms. You were viving on mushrooms, which I think is a crucial distinction that only the true deadheads know. So, Andy, we have a very special show today because we did a little bit

of an experiment. So we're going to talk a little bit about Better Call Saul, the penultimate episode is season five. We're also going to talk about Mrs. America, the first episode, even though Hulu dropped the first three episodes, FX on Hulu dropped the first three episodes on the 15th. We'll probably talk about that intermittently throughout its first season or its season. But this is a special episode because on Monday night, the finale, the season finale of Briar Patch aired. It's been an incredible thing to be in the passenger seat for this last couple of years. I mean, basically these last couple years because you've been working on it

for such a long time. I got to go to the set. I got to be with you kind of every step of the way from casting. I mean, hell, from writing when you were writing in the commissary

at Sunset Gower Studios. And you've been so cool about sharing your feelings, your anxieties, and your pride in the show. And you should feel proud because it was a great finale. Very heartstring pulling,

honestly. Thank you. And also very excited. and thrilling and nail biting. So congratulations. That's what I really wanted to say. Congratulations. You fucking did it.

You made a television show. It aired. I'm going to catch up as soon as Saul's over. I appreciate that. I feel like you just got to find the time because I know you're slam right now. It's like Saul. I'm also watching Top Chef Denver now,

so I got to get that done. I'm torn. I'm not sure which I would rather have you be up on, honestly. No, I just, it's almost strange. It's like to know how much you put into it,

it makes you watch it in a completely different way. I know it sounds polyana-ish, and I think people have been teasing us a little bit about the way we've discussed the show, but it's kind of impossible for me to see it beyond being an extension of my best friend, an extension of like how much he's worked. And it really is, it has been really amazing to watch.

And just to see those final scenes, the spoiler, should we do spoilers here for Briar Patch? I think it's fine. Okay, hopefully there's enough. Both the most, the harrowing scene that's sort of like the third to last moment of the episode and the season and also the final kind of emotional interaction between Jake and Allegra. And those are moments that like I've read in scripts from you. Like, you know, I've been kind of waiting for this for a long time.

I can only imagine what it must have felt like for you to watch it. It felt crazy. Honestly, I mean, you know, I think that people have heard me talking about it, no, that This has been all-consuming and wonderful, even when it was really hard. And we were still finalizing FX shots on Friday. And then all of a sudden they were on TV on Monday night. And, you know, I think I finally reached a place of peace when I realized that I would be feeling kind of insane and bereft regardless of the fact that I haven't seen anyone other than my family for over a month. This is ultimately, you know, it is the reason I got in.

it was to work with brilliant, wonderful people, and that was worth it. And that's what I got to do at every stage of it. So really what I was feeling more than anything else, once I kind of got over all the first bubble wrap of emotions was I just kind of missed everybody. And on Monday, you know, the nice thing about the finale airing was that I got back in touch with everyone. And, you know, actors and crew. And it was something that we did together. And ultimately, I think I understand on a deeper level than I ever could have before what people have said to us on this podcast. And we've interviewed them about why they do what they do in this field, and it's really for the relationships you make and for the process. Making something is what it's about. Having made it is really nice

and an incredibly fortunate thing, one that I don't take lightly, especially now that so many things are not being made currently. But ultimately, yeah, I just felt really kind of good about it, and particularly lucky, although it speaks to a larger problem in the world, but I really really did treasure the last few seconds of wrestlers posing in an empty arena that were aired on USA right before my show started. It was the perfect, like almost Dada-esque Kickstarter to what was a very insane finale. I will miss that. Yeah. I'll miss that. For you, you know, when you started this, I know that it started essentially as a writing exercise and that you were basically like, trying to get some stuff down on paper and you thought, why not engage intellectually and emotionally

with my favorite writer, Ross Thomas? And I was curious, because in a weird way, like somewhere in the middle of watching these episodes, like I feel like it kind of left Ross Thomas for me. While I always echoed back to that, I think that it just, Allegra became separate from the character in the book for me. But I was wondering as you were watching the finale and as you kind of got to the end of the season, whether or not thoughts went back to that original source material, but also to the original reasons for doing this in the first place. Yeah, I think they were twofold. I think that one reason to do it was that I love Ross Thomas and I want people to read his books and I wanted people to kind of get his spirit and his characters and his vibe and enjoy it in a medium that it wasn't

ever properly adapted for, but also, you know, find, have their own journey with it and read his other books. But I also kind of laid down a marker, I think, with what I want. I want. I wanted to see if I could do. And honestly, what I wanted to see if I could do was that the last scenes. I wanted to see if I could with, you know, brilliant collaborators who carried me and added their own personalities and abilities to it, but have characters who could land an emotional scene like the last Jake and Allegra scene and then like the last scene itself of the show. And now looking back on it, you know, and I think many people will relate to this,

no matter what field they're in, if their writers are almost anything. else. I can look back over the previous episodes and feel moments I was afraid of or moments where I held back or moments where I second guessed myself. And getting to accomplish something for me that was kind of pure at the end was the most rewarding part. And I think that, you know, again, for anyone who undertakes a large, something big, you kind of can't think about the end or else you'll just make yourself insane. But that last scene of Allegra leaving. town was the marker that I laid down that I was kind of afraid of, but it kept getting closer and closer and closer and closer. And more than anything that thought me. Were you afraid that you wanted

it to mean as much to you? You mean as much to viewers as it meant to you? Well, I wanted to feel a certain way like I felt internally when I thought about it or the same way that you kind of feel when you there's a song that you love and it makes you feel a certain way and you try to tell someone about it and you sound insane like you're talking about a dream. There was that piece of it. But then there's the other piece of it that was translating, and I'll speak really candidly about it, like translating to a visual medium, not as a visual storyteller, I write a lot. Like, people who read me at Grantland, no, those pieces were long. And why have one joke in a scene when you can have three or four clever turns of phrases? And sometimes I get in my own way. And when you get to a scene

like that, you can't overthink it. You can't overdo it. And Eva Anderson was right on me helping me rewrite it. On a certain point, you're going to have to trust that Galler who's lighting it. You're going to have to trust Stephen Pai, who's directing it. You're going to have to trust Rosario and Jay who are acting it and just get out of the way. And, and, and, learning to get out of the way was was hopefully the biggest lesson of the whole thing, but particularly in regards to the finale. But it also feels, I think, pretty good because while we, you know, I really hope we get to do another season, and that's still very much up in the air, not many people get to just tell the whole story of this story anyway. Yeah. So we got to do that.

So I think I would feel a lot differently if it ended on a giant cliffhanger. And I just didn't know, like maybe I saved a couple bullets in the chamber. Not the case if you watch this episode, no bullets left. So that's why it feels weirdly kind of calm and satisfying. Did you feel like, you know, what was the way that you never really anticipated going into this? Like you said, you're coming at this as writer first. You're basing this off of one of your favorite fiction authors.

And you go into this process where all of a sudden you're thinking about everything from the labels on beer bottles to the behavior of zoo animals to all these different jobs and responsibilities that become yours after after such a long time of being only responsible for what you're thinking in your head and what's on the page. What was the mechanism that you were most

excited about that helped bring your ideas to fruition? Like I know that you took a lot of pride in for instance making this playlist over the course of the year for the needle drops in the in the show. And I was curious whether or not there was a thing that you were like, if you would ask me this two years ago, I never

would have thought I was a guy who was very particular about costuming or very particular about set design or something like that. But it turns out I am. Literally what you just said, all of it. I think that maybe as a defense mechanism when I was writing about TV, I think I was very cautious to say like, you know, I'm not a visual storyteller,

I'm not a director, or maybe I don't notice it, or I don't have the language to talk about the shots or whatever. And the truth is I didn't have the language, but ultimately I guess I really did have strong opinions about it because you can't not. You can't care so much and only care about bits and pieces of it. You know, I had to be on set. I just felt like I had to be there.

And I had to weigh in on, as you said, on costumes, on lighting and things. And even, you know, later on when we're doing color correction, no, no, that I want the green that's behind Floyd's head when he's lying on the football field. We need it to be a much more intense green because it's supposed to be the kind of green that only exists in your memories of high school football games. So we have to amp up that green. in the moment. And you and I did a lot of high school football, so we know. You know, our Quaker schools just dominated the Friends League. Kill Quakers Kill.

No, but like it's the kind of thing that when people ask me my opinion about stuff early on in the process, pilot or early on in series, I think I deferred a lot as if maybe I didn't have an opinion. But the truth is I did have an opinion, just kind of scared of being out on Front Street with it. But ultimately, this was an exercise that I was really fortunate to undertake, which was, no, I really, really, really, really, really care about all of it. you know, all of it. And that can be maddening or it can be kind of liberating. And I think by the end,

it was the latter. I know that this is sort of a boilerplate question, but I wanted to ask you because it sets up the next part of our conversation that I wanted to have, which was if you could go back now to the person who's like, sounds good. Sounds like we're going to make a show in Albuquerque. What piece of advice would you give that person? Because I actually do, I'm actually curious what you would tell Andy of 2018, I guess. Explain more explicitly to your wife what it will mean to be

shooting a show in Albuquerque, New Mexico when you live in Los Angeles, California. Right. Be very clear that there are no flights, direct flights from Burbank. No, I think I mean, that is the biggest question.

I think... Maybe you haven't even processed that. I mean, I was... I don't know if I've processed the whole thing. I think that what I would say, maybe this is feeling, this is a little bit like, you know, this will remind you of our high school football days, but I would be more like a coach Taylor. Like I kind of would say like you can do it. Yeah. It's going to be hard as hell and it might not be perfect and nothing about it is going to be perfect,

but you can do it, you know, and that there's pleasure to be taken in the moment at each stage of it. Because that's the thing that I keep thinking about as I talk to cast or crew or there's so many people made this. but I was lucky enough to be the only one who was there from beginning to end because people come on for the pilot and fall away. They come on to prep, the writer's room, prep, production, the post team, the last people I said goodbye to. But from all of it, I got to be there, which is incredibly lucky. But that also, I think I may have said this on a previous podcast,

you kind of can't sit any plays out. If there's ever a moment when you're like, well, someone's going to make sure we get that coverage of that line, or someone's thinking about what that, which whiskey bottle is going to be showcased in this scene. No, no one is. Yeah. Right. No one is. And that's not diminishing other people's contributions. It's just no one is thinking or caring as much as you are. Ultimately, it's going to be your responsibility. It's also your, you're going to be your name. Yeah. It's something that I think I've told people this, but Mike sure said it to me when I went,

I had lunch with Mike before I staffed the room, basically just asking for advice because he's so kind and generous and experienced. And he was like, you know, if you find anyone in this process who cares 40% as much as you do, you're going to win. That's amazing. No one will ever care as much as you do, but 40% is a batting average, is batting 400, and that's amazing. I think I was lucky enough to have people who cared more than that. But I think that was a pretty good benchmark to remember, not just about other people, but about my own obsession and sanity. Yeah, I mean, it has to be your obsession. All right. So obviously, you alluded to having more story to tell. I know that You talked on this pod before.

It's not a secret that your vision for this is that this world, this briar patch world could be something that sort of drew from Ross Thomas, obviously that you imbued with your own personal vision, and that these could be discrete short stories that sort of lived inside of the same ecosystem. Have you started thinking about what to do next? And I do want to talk a little bit about some stuff that's been coming up this week in the news about it does seem like strangely, even though we might be, we might experience a pipeline disruption at some point in terms of what's coming on our screens. The longer that this goes on

and the more uncertainty there is about when will we all be able to be on a set together, much less go shopping safely or go back to work safely or go to sporting events safely and all these things that are apparently the fabric of American life that we kind of took for granted. have you thought about like what the next iteration of this show show is yes and um you know i i feel like for what it's worth like i feel like just being very candid since we have been from the beginning on this podcast like i there are times when we've talked to showrunners and we've asked them what's next is there going to be a third season and they said i don't know we don't know and then yeah and it's like and the next day they're like announced narco season four you know like

or they're like i got to go because i have to get back to the writer's room right uh right i truly honestly do not know. We pitched a second season a while ago. I'm thrilled and excited about it. I love it. I think it's surprising and fun and would love to do it. And I think it was well received, but I don't know. There are a lot of factors that go into play here, one of which is, I mean, there's all the normal stuff about like the metrics and what it means and blah, blah, blah, but then there's also this added wrinkle, which you were alluding to, which is, is it, is it, is it, is it, going to help a renewal that we could start a virtual writer's room next week because we could. On some level, yeah, I think that, you know, I've heard and I know from people in the industry

that writing and development are the only things that can happen right now. And so there is a case to be made that having something that's just locked and loaded and ready to go, since we have a team, is appealing. And I hope that that's the case. The flip side of it is, companies that, you know, are already kind of wondering on the macro level about what the next six months slash five years holds all of their timetables and calendars for their own internal decision making and their finances and what they want to be in the new streaming world. Those are all thrown into total disarray. Sure.

Because suddenly there might not be any more new shows for the end of 2020. And then what kind of entity does that channel want to be in 2021 and 2022? And those are conversations that are happening way above my pay grade and have to happen. in their own speech. Yeah, and there's so much of a kind of dissonance between the different developments that we're seeing in the business. I mean, on one hand, you're seeing, I mean, to be frank, the decimation of the media industry surrounding pop culture.

You know, so we're seeing layoffs and furloughs and cutbacks at trades that have been around for decades, you know, Hollywood trades that have been around for decades. And at the same time, you look at, the piece that Joe Dalyan wrote in Vulture today about basically like the arms race that is happening in development and in acquiring scripts, acquiring ideas and that these studios are basically buying ideas over Zoom and that they're looking to essentially build up libraries of scripts ready to rock when we are finally able to start shooting stuff again. And it was kind of fascinating because, you know, we had taught, we've been talking about the streaming wars for a

couple of years now, and it now seems like it's, it's kind of the same thing, but it's the script wars, or it's the idea wars. And maybe that's always been the case. But one of the more interesting things that Joe touched on was this idea that this is the first time that writers and studios and production companies might be able to, quote, unquote, get ahead. That, yeah, ordinarily, if you say, let's say you're JJ Abrams, and it was announced today that JJ Abrams has a couple of shows that are in the pipeline now for HBO as part of his overall deal that he made with Warner. The HBO Max kind of streaming service.

And one was a, I think, a show called Duster, which sounds really cool that he's doing with a writer named Latoya Morgan, which is about a getaway driver in the southwest in the 70s. It sounds really cool. And another one was, I think, called the Overlook, which is essentially

the Shining Expanded Universe. It's like the Castle Rock treatment of the Shining. So he's up and running. And let's just say hypothetically, if you're working on Duster or Overlook, there's nothing necessarily stopping you in terms of production from writing the second season of that show now. Oh, right, exactly. I mean, friends of mine, friends from the Briar Patch Writers' Room who are working on other shows, continue to work on other shows.

The writer's rooms just went online. They just went to Zoom. The time and the inclination is there. I think it's a question of which companies are in the best position to make decisions for two years from now versus just for the rest of this year or the next year. And I think that's where a lot of the uncertainty comes into play. In terms of my own experience, the Joe Adelian piece that you're referring to is accurate.

I mean, I've had more forward-moving conversations and productivity on other projects that I'm working on in the last two or three weeks than I had had in the previous two or three months. Now, partly that's because I was just completely like chest-deep in Briar Patch Post. But also, there is a hunger to get things moving and to push things along and kind of see what we got, which is really beneficial to writers. The flip side of it that he also refers to in the piece, which I think is worth noting, is how much of this is, I don't want to say false bravado, but is just the optimism that you need to have as a business

when you are existentially threatened or challenged. The thing that Joe wrote about is he talked to some people who are like, it's great guns. And then some people are like, I don't know what that guy's talking about. And so Joe raises the question, are agencies or, managers because writers still don't have agents officially because that still hasn't been resolved. Are they just hyping up projects to hopefully reap some benefit from it? I'm not sure. I can't tell where things are in terms of the bullishness of sellers and sellers are studios versus the potential reticence or skittishness of buyers. That still remains to be seen, especially because the first few weeks of this,

I think people were still on their personal lives, let alone their professional lives being like, well, this will be cleared up by April. And of course, this is a generational event. And we don't know. We're supposed to be back at work at Easter. You know, that didn't work out. That's what I heard.

No, I agree with you. It kind of reminds me a little bit of what we went through and what we're going to go through with the NFL. Where the NFL, I mean, has honestly won the day in terms of all the other professional sports leagues have kind of just gone into cryogenic freeze because they were either mid-season or pre-season in the case of baseball.

Soccer has basically been suspended on the precipice of its completion. The NBA didn't even get to the stretch run before their playoffs, and you've got a bunch of guys who are basically like, I'm in the middle of the late second act here. I don't really know what to do. The NFL kind of charged ahead with their off-season

and was able to generate so much, much interest and traction around the transactional nature of the industry, regardless of whether or not, like, there is a possibility that they might not be able to play these games or if they do, there won't be any fans there. And if they do without any fans there, there still might be an incident which causes them to have to shut it down again. And in some ways, that's with the TV industry. I was noticing that there just seemed to be like an uptick in announcements in the last 48 hours, 72 hours or so about new shows. And I was kind of like, man, I wonder whether or not this is going to be the great distraction. It's just speculating about casting and speculating about

what's JJ Abrams's Shining Show going to be about? Definitely. I mean, part of this is a lot of the things that had been announced were well, you know, very close to the finish line when things shut down. And it's possible that they weren't going to be announced until they were closer to a production date or they had more information or cast attached. But because people are looking at their larders, like HBO Max is launching soon. And a lot of its original programming plan, are now in question. They have a couple darts and some of those darts might be just development darts. So we'll just blast out an announcement that there's something to look forward to here. You know, the actual drill down into it, what it would mean or look like to put a show into production

is chilling. It's disturbing. I mean, and I can only speak to that industry because that's the one I've been paying close attention to that this is true for anyone in almost any industry. But, you know, a production isn't just the actors and the people with the cameras. It's upwards of 200 people working in close proximity to each other. Sharing meals. And going on location and going on location and working place to place to place. And then on top of that, I don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities here or shatter anyone's illusions.

But film people aren't the most abstemious in terms of like affection, you know? Film sets are randy places. actors never really lose that let's play spin the bottle at the cast party in high school vibe so the idea that suddenly this very like we're proud cowboys or gypsies or whatever they want to call themselves

industry is going to adhere to what would have to be almost like monastic slash militaristic regime it's hard to imagine I'm not saying it's not possible and I'm certainly I'm actually a little bit more optimistic than some of these other reports that I've seen, I do think, based on nothing other than my own militaristic and monastic

nature, that some things will get back into production by the end of the year. I think so. And certainly in places that have film cultures where things seem more under control, New Zealand, for example, or Korea, but there's a lot of uncertainty. And so I think the desire to make deals was in some ways a way to push back against the uncertainty. But lurking behind Somewhat wishful thinking, yeah. Yeah, behind that there's more uncertainty. Let's talk about something that we are certain of, which is that Better Call Saul is a very good television show.

Boy, it is, you know. I don't, again, like, we're pretty radical. We're on the radical fringe of our opinions these days now that we're back to TV. Well, I think our devs take seemed to be a little bit out there. But I think with Saul, you know, we could talk a lot about bad choices. Bad Choice Road, which is the name of this episode, all the moments leading up to it from Jimmy's final arrival out of the desert

and the outfits that he and Mike buy at the gas station and so many different moments. But I think that we could probably just spend the next couple of minutes talking about the scene because this episode had a scene that will be remembered, will be played back, people will watch it on YouTube, people will teach it in classes. It'll be on some people's Emmy reels. It will be one of those scenes, and there's plenty of them in Breaking Bad,

where it becomes a kind of iconic moment. And I think, tell me again, the tell me again scene at the end of this episode will become one of those moments. So let's kind of break it down if you want. Yeah, I just, again, like maybe this is, this is this show where we're tearing off the Band-Aid and we're just speaking truth.

I didn't realize it until I was watching the scene the other night on my couch. But I don't know how much I feel things anymore. And maybe it's because I'm not listening to enough Grateful Dead. But some combination of, you know, having been working on in this field now for two years and thinking about it constantly versus watching TV professionally one way or another for a number of years versus being, you know, a drift in a sea of uncertainty in the middle of a global pandemic slash isolated on Dattington Island, whatever. Even, I've noticed that my reaction to things, that even things that I love is a little bit like

that friend that annoys you because they never laugh. They just say, that's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of how I've been. I realized, and the moment I realized it was when this scene jumped up a notch, when Mike makes the phone call. and he puts the phone, tells him to put the phone down, and Lalo walks in.

And all of a sudden you realize every single thing that this show is comprised of has been leading to this moment. And it's going to play out like this with the three best actors on the show, I think. And we'll talk about Tony Dalton in a minute. There are certainly the best characters at the moment on the show. No offense to Mike, who's a legendary character. But in terms of where our heart lies and where our. attention lies. And I felt electrified. I sat up completely. I felt anxiety and fear, but also total exhilaration at the structure and the artistry of it. I was like at once feeling,

and again, I know I'm sounding like you seeing the dandelions bloom in your neighborhood. Well, Jerry Garcia is chugling. Well, Jack Straw just like just rises out of the mist I mean, I'm going to take your word for it. But I felt alive. And I don't know how else to say it, but I guess it put my reaction to so many other things really in a different light. And I was blown away. This is a Hall of Fame television scene. Send it to Cooperstown. Don't wait five years. Bravo to everybody involved. So one of the reasons why I think that you thought that felt that way, because I felt very similarly is, and I've been thinking about this a bunch

because we've had the chance to talk to Ray Seahorn this year, and I think that... Define we. Well, we are, I think, you know, like, we're pretty familiar with the public-facing personas of a lot of the people who make this show. And like Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould and Melissa Bernstein, really, really, like, nice people.

Like, they seem like sincerely sweet, thoughtful people who are very humble, which is a very rare thing. And they are very like, you know, we're just trying to make the best show that we possibly can. And you'd be surprised. There's not like, there's not a lot of machinations going on here. It's like we have some ideas about what's happening. But it's really, we're just grinding it out. And I'm not calling bullshit on that.

But you can't watch that scene and not think that you are being, you are not in the presence of some bad motherfuckers. Because let's talk about a couple of the things that happen. First of all. And before we get into it, we should give credit. Shnauz, who is a veteran of Breaking Bad, wrote and directed this episode. Yes. Again, one of the most unique things about this show isn't just that it's able to build on the characters and the affection that fans had from Breaking Bad.

It's that, and this speaks probably to their niceness, you know, which I can only attest to because I've only ever talked to Melissa, but it seems to be true. Almost everybody involved in Better Call Saul grew up in the Breaking Bad larger universe. Right. If you see names in the writing staff, there are a few people like Alison Tatlock who came in from outside. But a large number of them were assistants. You know, they cut their teeth doing other things on the show. And similarly, Melissa Bernstein, executive producer, had never directed as far as I know anything before and then steps up and knocks it out of the park. And it's not like she's stepping out of nowhere. She's stepping out of this warm, supportive ecosystem that pushes people and story and their capabilities forward in what seems like the most jaw-dropping natural way. I mean, I'm just kind of in awe of that. Yeah, and the reason why I was calling them bad motherfuckers is because if you watch that scene again, there's a 10-second run from when he gets on the phone, but Schnauz keeps Kim out of focus in the frame, and you're like, she's going to get killed here. Like, this is it.

Yes, this is it. And it could be. And these guys who wrote the line, I am the one who knocks, have fucking Lalo knocking on the door. Like, they know what they are doing. They know how to play with our collective memory of Breaking Bad and our anticipation of things. And I think that in some ways, like they've been teasing very hard. You've got to watch these episodes live.

These last couple episodes change everything, yada, yada, yada. And I know that they're drumming up support and interest in the show, but they know how to create a moment like that. And I think that the fact that they keep Kim in that shot is the most tasteful way possible to manipulate people. You know what I mean? I felt very manipulated. I felt like it seems kind of sudden.

They're in the middle of this emotional conversation, her and Jimmy. And then you're just like, oh, I'm not ready to say goodbye to this character, which is exactly where you want to be if you if you're playing with something like that. You know what I mean? There's a feeling about well-written and well-made entertainment where it's like having a magic trick done in front of you and you don't mind being the mark. You don't mind having the person say, well, wasn't this your card or pull it behind your ear? Because you're just, you're thrilled. You're lifted out of yourself by the opportunity to have been a part of it. You don't feel taken advantage of.

You feel entertained and completely dazzled. And so that's the thing that they've figured out. And you said people will study this. I think they should. I'd like to study it. Because what did we know about Lalo over the two years or almost now two full seasons of the show that he's been in the cast? And I think that looking back, you could probably pinpoint a few things. But sort of on a subcutaneous level, we've been made to understand that he is deeply, deeply, deeply unpredictable and could do anything at any time.

And it's reinforced when he makes not to turn around and he jumps into the ravine and he behaves in a way that pushes back. against whatever expectations we have for characters or their behavior. All of that is track that has been led towards a destination, and the destination is this scene, because we have completely breathed in the reality of this character, that he could do anything at any time. And then they also know that we've watched a complete, I mean, they can pretty safely assume we've watched an entire other series that they made.

And one of the hallmarks of that series was keeping us on our toes and keeping us off on our guard because anything could happen at any time. And so that realization that you're speaking to that, oh, he could just pull the gun and shoot her right now. Yes. And that delicious, like, oh, that's actually brilliant. And then the, oh, no, I'm not ready for that to happen. The last thing I can say about this, or one of the last things I wanted to say about this, was just that let's take a step back and realize that Tony Dalton has created,

an iconic villain character on a show that also features Gus Fring. Yes. Think about that. This guy is making, is stealing spotlight,

basically, from a, in a show, like, it would be the equivalent of being a cool serial killer in Silence of the Lambs. You know what I mean?

And what he's doing right now in the way in which he kind of walks right up to the line of hamming it up. And he does ham it up at times, but he hams it up within the realm of reality for that character. And he walks in and he's like, Hey, guys. And he takes a look around the apartment. He's like, nice. It's like, but it's still

terrifying. He's not a cartoon villain. No, it's my favorite performance on TV right now. It is completely charismatic. It's completely lived in. It's completely unsettling. There's a lot of physicality to it, the way he carries himself. And then what he brings to the smaller moments, like the moment when he turns back towards his Tio Salamanca, who has a birthday hat on his head and is in this completely emasculating absurd scenario. And what Tony Dalton brings to that moment, like just with a look is a mix of empathy and pity and sorrow and resentment and rage. And all of that carries through the rest of the show. And again, like this is the secret sauce of Better Call Saul that we often return to, which is how did they manage to make a compelling

week-to-week drama out of a show that is on some level for its main characters, spoiler-proof. We know what happens to Gus. We know what happens to Jimmy and we know what happens to Mike. We don't know, ultimately, of course, with Jimmy with the gene stuff, but we know what's coming next. And the way that works is not just through, you know, methodical, smart storytelling on the margins and with those pre-established characters, but it's by bringing in free radicals who we don't know what happens to them, and we have to care.

And that's why this season is so superlative because it is the Kim season, and it is the Lalo season. So our Monday show will be about, largely about the finale of Breaking Bad, and we'll put that up after the... Better Call Saul. I've done that a couple times recently.

I think because partially it's getting into, that, it feels more like breaking bad now than it does. Our Monday show will be about the finale of Better College Saul. So that will go up after the East Coast airing of the show. Briefly, do you want to just, I mean, we can probably save more in-depth conversation for Mrs. America for when we've kind of knocked out a couple more episodes, but I wanted to see if you were feeling it. Very much feeling it. Watch one and a half. I feel terrible having abandoned an episode halfway through, but I kind of speaks to my interest that I wanted to keep going before the inevitable iron curtain of exhaustion

and I'm a full-time teacher weighed on me the other night. But was this a wife watch? 100% yes. Although I think I'm more into it than she is so far. Interesting. Here's my main takeaway. Kate Blanchett's on a fucking television show.

Yeah, man. I don't even know if we're going to need to do a crossfire section here because this is just what I was going to say. That's my take. That's it. That's the tweet. Send. Yeah.

It's just not fair. I mean, it's just unreal. It feels like like Shaq playing at the Rucker or something. You know what I mean? And it's not like she's not surrounded by really amazing actors who are all going to, I think, have chances to shine because it seems like the conceit behind the show, which if people don't know, is created by Davy Waller, who worked on Mad Men for many years.

And it is a story about the politicization of the Equal Rights Amendment in the 1970s and the opposition to it that seemed to come out of nowhere in the form of Phyllis Schlafly, a conservative, but she was proudly, a housewife and then author and figure. Yeah, a Goldwater conservative. Barry Goldwater figures in this first episode. Played, played by Cape Lanchett.

And not Barry Goldwater. That would be quite an amazing performance. She could probably do it. She could probably do it. She could play every part on the show. She's played Bob Dylan. Why not? It's unreal. John Slattery plays her husband.

The Great Rose Byrne plays Gloria Steinem, Uzo Aduba from Orange is the New Black plays Shirley Chisholm, Margottenale is there, Elizabeth Banks is there, Sarah Paulson. Melon-Linsky, Sarah Paulson. Incredible, up and down cast.

It seems like the conceit is each episode, well, all about all of them, is following more POV each of the characters. The first episode is All Kate and is all the better for it. My only bump, I mean, I'm just, it's really interesting. I thought Alison Herman from the Ringer

nailed it in a tweet today, where she was basically like, this is a show about how the bad guys won. that jibes with my own personal opinion and also my own personal politics. But the only Achilles heel I found so far in the early going of the show is the one that I think is a hallmark of many historical shows or historical fiction, which is that every so often characters have to sort of pause and say, what was that thing that someone said to you once in Boston, a cabby, that clever thing about abortion that was said that I became famous for saying later. characters have to both be original emotive characters, but they also have to play the Halloween costume version of themselves to sort of like mark their territory and history.

And that can kind of be a drag, but it's so well done, but it's so well done that it pushes past that, at least so far. Yeah, I was going to say the exact same thing. I mean, I've been thinking a lot, because of the just sheer amount of TV that I feel like I've been watching maybe not more hours,

but it feels like more different shows. I've been thinking a lot about tempo. Actually, Top Chef was what got me thinking about it because I find the editing pace of Top Chef to be perfect for what I am looking for at times, like, where you're just like, I'm just, it's just real Chip Kelly. You're just never spending that long in the pocket.

I don't necessarily know that Mrs. America is fast, but Kate Blanchette as, like, an attraction, like an amusement attraction to watch, to watch her kind of work through a scene is her own game clock. She is her own like force of nature where she is like propelling the show forward. And when you watch her in scenes with Slattery or Triplehorn

and she's kind of doing these more domestic like, oh, don't forget to sign the credit card bill or this guy would love to go on a date with you. And it's just they're just kind of like establishing power dynamics and roles and backstory and history. I find it fucking mesmer. I find it like watching LeBron James play basketball. I mean, it's just like,

absolutely mesmerizing to watch her make her way through a scene. I agree. And I think that the basketball analogy is really sound, because just bringing my own recent experience back into this one as well, actors love actors. Actors fucking love acting. And actors aren't like NBA players generally aren't intimidated, even if they might be nervous or whatever, to step onto the court with LeBron. They're fucking psyched, right? Because they want to measure up their own skills. They want to see him up close. They want to see how it works. They want to see the magic trick. And, you know, that's what happened when Alan Cumming joined us in Briar Patch. Like, everyone was so excited. Everybody wanted to be around him. Everyone wanted to

see how he was going to do things. And I brought that experience into watching Mrs. America. So I was watching Slattery. I was watching Gene Triplehorn, who were fantastic performers always. But I couldn't help. But she's like licking envelopes. Yeah, right. But maybe it's because I was looking for it. But I detected a little extra. giddy up in their step. Like, here I am on the court with LeBron, and I'm thrilled, and I'm going to bring it. And I'm going to be there for every little,

every little stutter step she does. I'm going to try to keep up, even if I don't have the ball. And that's how a really great actor can improve everything. Yeah, I mean, there's great actors, and there's great movie stars, and there's only a few great movie stars who are also great actors.

And Cape Blanchett is one of them. And she might be our best, one of the best actors and is certainly has like a magnetism that rarely fits on the screen. So we'll talk more about Mrs. America going forward. Speaking of actors, we were so lucky to have a little bit of a Briar Patch reunion on our recording session today. Now, we'll have some video that goes out on the ringer's Twitter and on Briar Patch's social accounts so you can kind of see the fun that Andy had getting the whole gang back together today. But for our purposes, what we did was we had a conversation with results.

Osario Dawson. And then unbeknownst Rosario, Jay Ferguson also joined us. So Kaya is going to cut the audio for that. And we'll have that conversation with Rosario and Jay. It's about 15, 20 minutes of just chatting about the finale, chatting about the overall experience. Is there anything you wanted to add to that, Andy? No, just this was incredibly gracious of everyone to take time and do this. And of you, Chris and of Kaya, because like I said at the beginning, I just missed these guys. And so to be able to get in the middle of the day, get Rosario, get Jay. and then later, and you'll be able to see this in a video, Alan Cumming, Kim Dickens, Tim Simons, Tim Sharp, Allegra Edwards, Mel Rodriguez. Unreal for me and just such a treat because I love these people so much and they're so generous of their time, but also really was great to share and show how lucky I was because they're wonderful people who love working with each other and missed each other. And I really am excited to give people a glimpse of that. I mean, Rosario was basically like, just tell me when. And we won't, this won't come across in the podcast.

But before we started actually talking, you know, she was rummaging around her living room, pulling out like the card, a copy of the card that she made for everyone in the cast and crew, which she had designed of a tiger eating dill pickles or of like a dungy beer bottle or the hotel room key that she stole from set. And that she really, you know, wished that we had had more time altogether. So if for nothing else like that was a treat to be able to share with people, I think. Yeah, thinking about, speaking of movie star, like, Rosario is a movie star human. Like, she, the stories you've told me about her renting out bowling alleys for, like, the families of everybody working on the show and just being an incredible, like, steward for the show.

It was really cool to find out that somebody that I've always thought was, like, a pretty awesome person actually lives up to it. I know. We were texting and you were joking, like, should I only ask her about kids? And I was like, only if you have six hours, because she would love to talk about kids. I also should say that she did rent out the bowling alley. Well, for sure, but then the entire cast showed up. She'd do that too. She rented out a bowling alley with a laser tag thing only, I think, truly.

I mean, you had to make the kids happy, blah, blah, but so she could just dominate in laser tag. It was just gross, what she did to everybody. Andy, so let's get into this interview. We're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and then we're going to get into this chat with Rosario and Jay Ferguson. You guys will be able to see some more of the cast reunion. Thank you so much for sharing the experience of doing the show with this show. It's been really fun talking you about it.

It's been an amazing journey. Thank you for, I mean, obviously, for being my best friend and supporting me in this. But thanks to all our listeners and everybody at the ring or two for letting me do this. And I'm just personally glad that now, like, now, like, we've cleared up the wrestling lead-in now. And I'm just excited to see what it's going to be on Monday night. Exactly, exactly. Because the wrestling was the thing that got you into it in the first place. It was just a little something to do between Saul and, God.

I'm a wrestling fan now. I mean, look, the last thing I'll say is when that governor of Florida, who by the way, seems like he's doing a bang-up job, just a great job. Yeah. That's like if the Will Ferrell Wedding Crashers character became the governor. When he was like, wrestling is an essential service, I was like, as the showrunner of Briar Patch, I agree.

Hard agree. It was essential. Thank you, wrestling. Thank you to all of you. Let's take a quick break here from our sponsor. We'll be right back with our interview with Rosario Dawson, J. Ferguson, and more from Briar Patch. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Ben and Jerry's.

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I wish we could be in person, but this is the best we can do these days. We are joined by one of my favorite people, the star of the show Breyer Patch, which just ended. I don't know if listeners of this podcast knew that. Rosario Dawson is joining us. From her home via Zoom. you for joining us. Welcome to the pod, Razorio.

People don't know. Maybe they remember that you did make one previous appearance on the podcast when I ambushed you outside of a diner in the parking lot on the first day of shooting

the series. Oh, yeah. Very briefly. And you had your little intro that you did for the live event that you couldn't join us for. So this is kind of like coming. I know. I'm so confident at that live event.

It's like, it's so interesting what quarantine does and just how it makes you even revisit certain things of like something that in the moment, you know, kind of bummed you out, but suddenly is like, oh, that would have been the last time I would have seen everyone together like that, you know. You know, we had to do the last couple of episodes, ADR, while I was in Atlanta, so I wasn't even able to be in the room with you, which was always so much fun. Yeah, this last one,

this whole thing, this whole journey has just been so powerful and so profound to be watching it during the quarantine and just thinking about what, we were able to create before all of this. It's just like an incredible, you know. Oh. It was such a huge experience for me. I'd never, you know, led a show before. So I was never just like on set almost every single day like I was.

And, you know, and just being able to just relish so many different beats and moments of the entire process. It was just so powerful seeing the sets be built and just all of the departments come to life with this crazy wild story and their interpretations of it. and how it all came together. It was just really beautiful. Well, I'm kind of curious in my role as interviewer, not as the writer of the episode,

about your starting at the end. Because you, I think people may know this, you refused all spoilers for the show, the show that you were starring in. You took an insane leap of faith after meeting me for two hours in Culver City and joined the show. And even then, refused to read ahead

to the point where we filmed a scene from the finale with you and Jay. before we were, actually we were still filming episode nine, and we filmed that scene, and you only read those pages. So you were so reticent to read the finale. Yeah. When it finally happened, and you clearly read it, and you performed the living hell out of it, and you were brilliant.

And now it's come to an end. Did it... I just realized as I started asking the question, it sounded like I was fishing for a compliment, and I'm not. I'm just curious about your performance in the finale, honestly, Because when I was watching it again, I think you're so incredible because you have gone through the emotional changes that the character has gone through. And it's so evident. But you built it block by block and piece by piece. You let yourself be surprised by it. And I were wondering now, now that it's over and you're looking back on it, what that journey was like as a performer. You know, I think what's was so important is there are so many different beats and revelations and layers to be dealt with and work through. And I think she has done such a good job of compartmentalizing her life up into this point

that for me, the most important things to know were backstory pieces and things that had made her who she was up into this point. But this was a breaking point. You know, she didn't realize it. She didn't even, you know, when she got off that plane. And I love that first line that we got in there and there and there's my improv line of just going the one and only, Ms. Dill, the one and only. And I remember I kept wanting to say it and then I finally said it because it was like it's so dark to kind of say that but it's true.

And it was just for me it was just it felt like her. You know, there's just sort of this stoic kind of it's not necessarily even that it's cynical. It's just sort of like accepting kind of you know kind of experience of life that she just really, she's matter of fact

she thinks she's being pragmatic about it. she's just not ready for the gut punched on reality of like her own heartbreak. And so I wanted to be able to get there with her when she was there and not try to create it with behavior or thinking about it too much. Because I think the motion does strike her and kind of erupt from her

more than it is like she's so much more calculated than the other ways that she's being, you know, and how still she can be and quiet she can be and calculating she can be. But what the emotion comes out of nowhere. And so it was like it surprised me even then, like when I was watching the episode, like just how much it hits when she says,

no, there were three of us. I mean, that that's the line, yeah. Really, it's that line where it really is like, this is what this whole show is about. And it gets so caught up in all of these other directions and it's so big and it just shows, you know, as you're looking for like, you know, who's the bad guy?

and especially in a kind of murder mystery like this is, and you get to an emotional finish like this where you just recognize it's so much more beyond just going who pulled the trigger kind of thing. You know, because in this case, it's the gun manufacturer, it's the bullet, it's the person who packaged it. It's every single aspect of it that contributed to this bad place. And if you asked and individuated each of these different people,

they'd all give you a really great spin as to why they did it for the right reason. and how they're blameless to a certain degree. You know, and this is just how the world works, and they were really trying to do their best, you know? They don't think of themselves as bad guys. And I just found that so fascinating, you know, that the only way she could really figure out who did it was when she took responsibility for herself.

It's such a nuanced performance, and one of the things I think you hit on there, it's like it's not really cynicism that drives her as much as it's like really low expectations, you know? Like her, it seems like, or it's like she's just, because that allows her never to really be that surprised. But I was wondering whether or not, you know, this is an archetype. This character is kind of an archetype in detective fiction and in detective shows.

Were there any, were there any things you wanted to avoid with your performance? And were there anythings you wanted to embrace that kind of dealt with like the detective on screen that you may have other past characters? that you may have loved or been interested in? You know, I loved, you know, I grew up, you know, loving like Humphrey Bogart movies. And so, so much about this, sort of the style and the posture and the physicality of especially great old film noir classics

was, you know, was really fun to be aware of while we were filming it. And to think about that when I was working on the lines, that there was a rhythm to it and a world, you know, and something, an homage and a nostalgia, that it was kind of important to kind of connected to because it made it, it helped it to resonate as a story, I think immediately with people. You know, you were kind of sucked into that experience,

but then you get into the detail. And, you know, for me, most, I'm super emotional, and I'm very physical. And so I'm usually trying to get as much information and embody as much as I possibly can so that, you know, I'm ready at any moment to be able to react or improv or whatever from this character. And in this one, again, I really think she had these blind spots on that she just really thinks that she's just seeing everything with the widest perspective possible. And she does have a very

wide perspective, but she still, even for herself, has these blinders on that she can't appreciate. And I think that's why I was very calculated about what kind of information I ingested or I didn't because I did not, if I had the awareness, I felt like I would play it. And I didn't want to have that awareness. I wanted to be so clear about what I did know and have that ability to try to surmise. And yes, I wanted to be in that energy of me thinking I could figure it out and then keep in surprise. I needed, and that needed to be, because she, she's just so slick.

She's so sharp and she's so slick that that was the only way I felt like I could surprise her. was by making sure I kept a certain element of it surprising for me. Also, you bailed me out so much with that because I think that one of the biggest challenges we had as writers was how do we make this cool, competent, awesome lead of the show be wrong all the time, you know, and make that dramatically compelling. And then also communicate that what happens over the course

of especially episodes eight and nine flips a switch to a new kind of being right, that it's a different version of her. We were calling it Allegra 2.0, you know, or like final boss level Allegra at the end. Yeah. And so not knowing that you were wrong while you were chasing down this lead or getting distracted by this noise or forgetting that there were three of you allowed you to be present in the moment. And go back to the first thing I said, completely bailed me out as you did time and time again. It was good. It was really interesting.

You know, again, I haven't done much sort of long form storytelling like this. I'm used to having a film and you have the beginning, middle end, and you have the whole script before you've even decided if you want to do it. You know the full story. And this one, you know, we made so many decisions just on the pilot alone, on the speculation of the rest of the episodes. And then to, you know, to jump in on episode two and go, great, I'm so glad we made certain of these decisions.

And now also we have to transition some of these other ones to make it really fit this whole full story. Like I love how they're really. were certain leads with, you know, Cindy, you know, Leger's character and other people who were, you know, we were thinking they could maybe go in a different direction. And then when we finally did get picked up, it kind of shifted gears to go, no, this is, this is a better place to go. And so it felt really good to feel really like a lot of the big decisions we'd made up front really worked. But then going forward again, I just felt like it gave me an edge to be that

fully committed to the episode's arc and idea. Like she was so, she would get so, hyper fixated and she's so quick and I think it needed to push back on what she thinks is her being measured because she's not she's forgetting that she's a human being just lost her sister and it's the one element she keeps forgetting to factor in and so I wanted to be have that knowing I did know that that was her blinder but I didn't want to know even around that what it could help me to get to in the next episode so it was it was really interesting because And the next episode, I'd read it and go, she's so wrong. She's so wrong.

And that's why she drank all night. We talked about this a lot on set that the alternate title or subtitle for the arc of the season was goes to therapy once. Because the idea was to get her to a place of not fighting it and rushing and fixing it, but accepting it. And then once she accepted it and stepped out of that ridiculous scrum of insanity, which we tried to steer into. I mean, what happens in this finale is everyone shoots each other. But she's untouched because she's finally at peace with it. Rosari, was there anything that, just to go back to before the even the beginning, I was curious because you guys mentioned a two-hour meeting that kind of sealed the deal.

Was there something that Andy said or an idea that he put in your mind about this character and this story that cinched it beyond a piece of paper, beyond a script, beyond anything else? I think, you know, the fact that he was in love with this storyteller for so long and the genre of storytelling and how much he came from, you know, his passion for television, his passion for art and writing and music and just all of these elements that, you know, when he spoke about when he was talking about this and real, really the vibe and the energy. So which was really matched actually, it felt like when I got to sit down in the writer's room with everyone. And, and really the vibe and the energy. So, so, which was really matched, actually, it felt like when I got to sit down in the writer's room with everyone. And. And, you could see how every writer zoned into a particular aspect of the show that they really owned. And I think that's why even though there's so many different elements to it, all of those beats feel authentic because there was a real heartbeat behind it. And so I just remember that enthusiasm, but just sort of really thorough, like, really well-thought-out,

detailed exuberance. You know, it was, it wasn't just like, let's be a cool idea. You know, and people can get you caught up. I'm like, you know, it wasn't ephemeral. It was very specific and very, like, the fact that it came from, and I've had that pitch to me before.

This was written for a man. And, you know, we've made it into a woman. And then I'm supposed to just be like, yeah, that works perfectly. You know, like it's, it doesn't, you know, that's the only magic you're bringing to, you know, that's the big arc, then, you know, we're really in trouble. And it just, it was the specifics about that why, of all of the writings, it was this

particular book and why it was this particular world and making it this border town and adding all of these different elements of storytelling that made it, though it was a nod to the past, it made it something very relevant and very present right now. And because of the style, something exciting to participate in. about that meeting that I can finally be honest with you about is we were told we only had you for 30 minutes. And so I didn't budget my snack intake accordingly. And you know from spending four months with me now that I like, I need I need my snacks. And so I think I blacked out for the last hour of our talk. And I was sure I'd loan it. You didn't front load. You were kind of like teasing it out

and waiting for the end. I was like maybe I'll have lunch later today or like I'll have a fistful of almonds for that last protein push, you know. But I was just like seeing start. And I was, well, literally, because you were sitting across from me, but also, like, I needed snacks. And so I was very worried I had blown it because I was not prepared to talk for that much. I'm very glad that you did. You were. So because we are so excited to have you here and we also want to talk about the finale in some scenes in more detail. And also because we miss the chance to all be together, we wanted to invite someone else into our Zoom, if you don't mind.

Who is it? share the screen. It's a tiger. It's the tiger. Are you guys waiting? The tiger is local to L.A. Now I know who that is. Oh, spoiler. Get out of here with that. Boy, that's unconfirmed. Hey. What a surprise. He's wearing a cowboy shirt. Surprise, surprise. I love that star. We're joined by Jay Ferguson. We meet again. This is so amazing. This says everything about this show and that Rosario wore a shirt with tigers on it because she's all about the team, our team. And then this monster shows up all about his team. Uh-huh.

Go ahead. America's team. Uh, how you doing, girl? Oh, so much better not seeing you. How are you? Good. Congrats on the gig, man. You had it that whole time and you couldn't say a word, could you?

I don't know what you're talking about. She still can't say it, Jay. Let me say that if it is true, if this alleged news is true, then I will let the people of Disney know that they hired a trustworthy employee because if she was ever going to tell anybody, it better have been me. You know, I mean, just unbelievable. So happy for you if it's true. that's going to be awesome. You've got a future as a Star Wars blogger, man. Oh my God.

Come on, bro. You've heard my ring, right? You can call my phone. You want to hear my ring. No, I don't do that. It's not a future. It's a present. Nobody's acting right now.

So this is the time to multitask. Guys, the surprises aren't done. So I did want to ask you guys specifically while I have you here. Just to talk about the end of the season. Because for me, the journey of the show is the journey. journey of your two characters. And personally, you know, journey of getting to know you guys and your beautiful performances. And it's the kind of thing that just as a writer, you just wish and hope for because you guys obviously created something incredible with that first scene, the scene that

as everyone likes to remind me was 10 pages long in the pilot. And then we kind of had to find the other side of that scene. If you guys were superheroes in your costumes in that first scene, sort of bluffing and getting off on each other, what would that look like when it was finally blown to bits and you were just being honest and it was just emotional. And that's the kind of thing that you write and you send it out like a prayer and then luckily you guys answered it. And I, I've said this on this podcast. I've said it to you individually. The last scene between your characters and the finale is the thing I'm most proud of in the whole show. And that's thanks to you guys. Can you speak about that scene a little bit about knowing it was coming? Jay knew about it

longer than Rosario did. Do you start fresh every time you're in a scene with each other or do you feel like you really are building on the previous however many scenes it was that established this relationship. Oh, boy. I think maybe I can't speak for Rosario. I would say it probably built more for me.

She always had me figured out from the jump. So, you know, there wasn't a whole lot in the, in terms of a surprise. You know, she knew what she was getting. I don't know if I was prepared for, or Jake was prepared for what he was going to get. So, yeah, I feel like there was a little bit of an evolution there as sorts,

you know, coming to know this new version of this old friend and, you know, not falling for the old tricks anymore. But still not learning from it, obviously. Apparently not. I think it's so powerful watching, you know, from these two people who haven't seen each other in so many years, haven't spoken to each other in so many years. and there's this

just rhythm to their communication, you know, just, you know, you just have this like an old bike, you know, just there's a flow. And in the discovery of process throughout the show

of what their connection truly is, from family to soulmates, to, you know, just there's so much that's explored to getting to that moment of heartbreak. It just was, it was just so powerful. I think I really love,

I think that's one of the, reasons why I love sci-fi and I love I love like really big storytelling that can take in something with style but still kind of break into your psyche, you know, and like really move view. And so I just, I love how just the whole presentation of this whole world is just so fantastical and gorgeous and beautiful. But it really does get even with still again, incredible camera movement and just the lighting. Like you're just constantly pulled into the visual storytelling. But as it's kept, as it's holding that visual attention,

you know, there's some really, really beautiful heart that's being wrenched and exposed underneath that. And it just is my favorite kind of storytelling to watch, to just know that this 10-hour movie, that these characters and these people have gone through this journey, I truly believe the weight and depth of their relationship and their life choices and just adulthood. And just felt like so much that's expressed in just these few conversations

you get to witness from these people. And just I'm looking forward to binge watching and going through all of it again with no commercials and just being able to really fill the beats of the storytelling because it's so quirky and rich. And to know where it ends up is just really satisfying. You guys sound like the story isn't done. You guys sound like there's more stories for, Jake and Allegra, that's weird.

Time will tell. Just throwing that out there. Time will tell. It would be in heaven. Jay, you're amazing. Oh, we'll do it again any day. Any day. That last scene between you guys in the apartment,

I was wondering whether or not there was some discussion beforehand or discussion with Andy or with Stephen, the director, about it has like a, sorry, you mentioned cadence. It has like a little bit of a different rhythm, especially coming out of such a bang, bang scene like the one at the warehouse. that precedes it, it feels like there's almost like a taking the mask off in that scene. And I was wondering if there was any kind of, what kind of things were you guys talking about going into the apartment scene?

I don't know if I really remember us talking too much about it. It was, it was fairly self-explanatory, especially at that point in the story. You know, you... It was our last night of shooting. It was my last scene. That was it. But, I mean, I'm sure we discussed it and stuff. But, I mean, at that point, also, we had found such a lovely rhythm between one another.

You know, oftentimes we would, well, she gives a full out performance every single time no matter what. But I was trying to, like, you know, hold it back for a little while in all of our rehearsals and whatnot. He saves himself for the playoffs. trying to save it. But yeah, it was, it turned out really well. I loved it. I was telling Andy earlier, you know, because obviously when you shoot these things, you shoot it a million ways to Sunday.

But I was very happy they did not cut back to Jake in the house. Like, I was so happy that they stayed with Allegra and that that, you know, that's, that's it. You know, and cutting away from that would have been, I would have been no good. for me and I was just so happy to see that because it is so perfect and that oh and the score I'm gonna go off go off a little bit here that I love the abrupt ending of the music as Brattle is walking into the warehouse that was fantastic that's awesome thanks so much to j ferguson and rosario dawson and thanks so much to Andy for sharing all those experiences making briar patch it's just been so cool to hear hear how it actually happens here how the sausage actually gets made so that was

our interview with Rosario and Jay will be back on Monday talking largely better call Saul, but of course we'll also hit the finale of devs and all sorts of other stuff. Thanks so much for listening. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Ben and Jerry's. When you pop open a pint of Netflix and chilled ice cream, you can experience the magic of things that go perfectly together with the perfect mix of peanut butter intrigue, pretzel drama, and fud brownie belly laughs. Netflix and chilled pairs well with any of your Netflix originals.

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