The Watch - ‘House of the Dragon’ Episode 4 and ‘The Rings of Power’ Episode 3

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the latest episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ and talk about the lack of set pieces in this episode (1:00) and whether the show is spending too much time on setting up history the average viewer might not care about (15:24). Then they talk about the third episode of ‘The Rings of Power’ and what is motivating the plot of the show (37:05). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone. This is Chris Ryan from The Ringer. As many of you have heard by now, we lost a treasured colleague and friend over the weekend. Jonathan Charks passed away on Saturday. John was 34. He leaves behind a wife and a son, and we are obviously mourning his loss and sending all of our love to his family right now. If you go to the ringer.com slash Jonathan Charks, that's J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N-T-J-A-R-K-S. You will find a memorial page for John, which has links to his GoFundMe that benefits his family. family, and the amazing writing he did throughout his experience. I encourage you to go there, and if you can, please support the Charks family. Briefly, I will just say that John was among the

first people that we hired to work for the ringer, so he was instrumental in defining the voice and perspective of the site. He has as much to do with what this place is as anyone else. And throughout his experience with Cancer, John communicated eloquently about the challenges he was facing, both through his writing and his podcasting. You could never stop John from talking about his passions. It's one of the things I loved about him. Over the last few months, you know, whenever we would talk, whenever I would reach out to see how he was doing, I would try to keep it very John focused, and the next thing I knew we would be talking about James Hardin or Better Call Saul. He really loved this stuff. He loved talking about it, celebrating it, debating it,

illuminating it. We're going to keep putting out our pods and writing while we grieve, but we wanted to let folks know that John was in our hearts and that his family was in our thoughts. Thanks for listening. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis,

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He knows something of the hour of the owl. It's Andy Greenwald.

The hour of the owl. Why don't you just say 3 a.m.? I don't know. Do you think that they have regular time in Westrose? Do you think they just break out the Ottomar? And they're just like, oh, it's 1.30. It's time for a feast. What I'm curious about is that the, let's assume that it's just a colloquial place, right?

Like, you know, the spirit of poetry. burns bright within the houses of the dragon. Sure. No evidence of that yet, but at least in terms of the timekeeping. I just feel like that would be challenging because every region would have its own hour. Like for us, we'd be like, ah, Chris, well met. It is the hour of Wawa. You know, and then we would all eat hoagies.

We'd know that would mean dinner time, right? Or lunchtime. Or in Los Angeles, it would be like, good morrow, Andy. It's the first of nine traffic jams of the day. Ah, yes, yes. It is the hour of the hells. between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. You know, Andy, today we're going to talk a little bit a lot about House of the Dragon episode

four, the King of the Era C. We'll chat a little bit about episode three of Lord of the Rings, rings of power. And I like to think of these shows now, this first show of the week, is it's me getting to chat with my old friend Bastion from Neverending Story. You know, you're just a bibliophile. You're just like sitting there and you got your big book of fantasy and high adventure stories. And it's what I always dreamed of for you. I'm hiding from the bullies upstairs at school. You know, I'm impressed that you got to make the first beloved 80s film reference

because I was going to say this episode of House of the Dragon is the one that finally turned all of America into Principal Rooney from Ferris Bueller's Day off. So that's how they do things in that family. Oh, so that's how it is. Okay. Got it. Okay, so we got, you know, probably our weekly dose of incest in this episode of H-O-T-D. I mean, the week is young.

The week is young, Chris, but please go on, yes. What did you think of the episode? Well, I'm of two minds. I'm of two minds about the episode. You know, first of all, long-time listeners of this podcast and whatever form it takes know that all I want from a Game of Thrones show is a walk-through. a night market. You know, that's what I want. It was a joke, but it's also not a joke, because it is precisely the kind of specificity in world building that I think shows need,

particularly shows that have felt so claustrophobic as House of the Dragon has felt. So I appreciated that aspect of the show. I was glad to spend time with the, at least as much as the Game of Thrones universe in its current form seems interested in the emotional, you know, that mechanisms of these characters. I was appreciating that. Perhaps a little frustrated with where it ended up. But, you know, there are individual performances and things that I liked quite a bit.

And, you know, I don't know if I ever said this on camera. Because you're shipping Damon and Renera so hard and you're so frustrated with those guys having more obstacles. Always. Cool uncles is just like, that's just... You know, it's just a... At least this is... There are some things that the show has done. where I'm like, what are you teaching me about the human condition?

And then there's things like the niece and uncle relationship where I'm like, thank you. I have learned too much about the human condition. I will go back to my crab farm. I guess what I want to start with with this episode was appreciation that we finally got to see brought to the screen, Kings Landing's famous circus district. Now, we've seen the spice markets, we've seen the whorehouses, You know, we've seen the sewer system. Pleasure houses, by the way. I think they're referred to as poor houses.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That is out of date. And I acknowledge that and I apologize. Pleasure houses. Pleasure house for me, an old bookstore. But, you know, we age out of certain. You know, we spend our hours of the owl differently as we get older.

But, you know, the famous circus district, we've, Mallory and Jason used to talk about it all the time, right? that there's a certain lane you can walk down in Kings Landing. Is this a well-known district of Kings Landing? Do we know? You kind of believe me, right? I'm absolutely bullshitting. But you kind of believe me that if you took a left, you leave the castle, you take a left, right? When you see the fire breather, you keep going.

They got, I wish there was a Stefan for this, you know. There's old Zoltar machines. There's jugglers. It's great. I think you spent a lot of time in the circus district. of Copenhagen, right? You know, I did, but only at the hour of the owl. They actually there, they call it the hour of the fermented squash. Right. And it's delicious. You mentioned the home that largely is the setting for this episode. And I think that we didn't really get a chance

to talk about episode three that much directed by Greg Gattani's, but I talked a little bit about this with Mallory and Joanna. And I mentioned how I felt, like my senses come alive as these characters moved outdoors to their like, their woodsy sort of celebration of Agon's name day and having this pop-up restaurant, you know, in the middle of the forest run by the Lannisters. It's like champagne's being handed out as they walk in. There's the hunt. There's like different color schemes going on in terms of the lighting and everything.

They played bore on the floor. They did. but that was like I think that that really taught me something about one of my reactions to the show which is a show that I like a lot but am having like a little bit of like clock watching when it comes to

this is an episode no set pieces no escape from the castle really except for Reneer has run down this night to this night market of pleasures and and I looks like raw horse meat that she ate what was what was the sort of dish and then buddy

trader Joe's offer like samples that they had. Why go to a night market when you can just have night at home? That's right. You know what I mean? That's right. And, you know,

I don't remember ever having this reaction to Circe's, Circe's castle in Game of Thrones, or Joffreys or whatever you want to say that it was theirs. But I'm having it in this show where I'm like, huh, like, just feel like we've been in these rooms a lot, especially the small council room,

which I guess we were also, that also was the case. for Game of Thrones, but there was enough fireworks happening outside of that room that it felt like balanced. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, look, here's the thing. And we will talk about the, you know, the positives of which I think there were a number of them. I think the performances continue to be carrying the show almost more than anything else. But I would point to the scene when Renera returns from her sojourns and her her uncley wanderings. And so, seduces her dude, sir, what's his name, Sir Kristen? Sir Kristen.

And Millie Alcock, who's been delivering a great performance, suddenly comes alive and is allowed to play different keys on the acting keyboard, and is playful and is flirtatious, and is just sort of, I'll say it, alive, lively. And it was really fun. And it was fun not just because I got the sense that the actor was enjoying the experience, but that it was a different, just a different tone that we've seen in the show thus far. And it was so, so, so welcome.

And it was just making me think that this might be a little bit pessimistic. But the volume, and I say the volume again, it's the Mandalorian Wall that is being used by more and more productions to enhance, but also streamline the CGI.

Yeah. Not to make too big a deal about it metaphorically, but what it does is it gives you the illusion of depth. And I'm starting to worry that that is actually a metaphor you could wrap around this generation of CGI IP shows. Because this episode, you know, was on the high seas and then it was in a teeming market. And it did travel outside of the rooms of power more than the first two did, right? The last two episodes have done that. But it didn't actually give us any specificity in those places.

they were in the ocean and Sir Kristen's like we're going to be home a month early it's like okay well we were just in a room and now we're going to be on a boat and then we're going to be back in the old rooms I think that's supposed to be one of their time jump mechanisms but yeah

I know what you mean. Sure but now when you go out into the world there's just like writhing bodies that are visual adults only you know analogies for an option or a road not

taken. There's no person representing that. There's no character who's just like, I live here and it's cool. You don't have to live in the castle or you could make a different choice. That's Steve. Yeah, look at Steve. Steve comes here every night. Steve's busy right now. Steve's got his hands full. But do you know what I'm saying here? And I am struggling with that because the feeling of the show thus far, it's hard to escape that these are merely well-performed and well-drawn placeholders in a historical recreation, in a historical meaning,

a fictional history based on George R. Martin's world. I have yet to find the show's purpose in terms of these specific people, what makes them interesting and unique and why I am invested in them. You know, the show seems to be using its genre as a little bit of a hedge to say that, to quote unquote, teach us things or reveal things

that actually don't seem that surprising after, you know, 10 plus years of Thrones, but also 40 plus years of human experience. Yeah, you know. Like, you know. The role of women or what marriage could be used for or, you know, a lot of effort to get to those places. I mean, I talk about the incest sex scene or near sex scene for a second here. And it's funny that, like, that to me was one of the more thrilling parts of the show, even though I feel disgusting for saying that

because the psychology of the characters before, during, and after that sequence was pretty... There was a lot of ambiguity. It was like, are they super into each other? Is she into him and he's using her? Why can't he perform? Like, was she then so turned on

that she immediately went back to the guy that she does or maybe doesn't want to be with? Like, I... You know, there was all this sort of like... It was almost like, what if Brian De Palma made Game of Thrones for 15 minutes there. And I don't think that that's sustainable and I don't think that that would be palatable

to a mass audience. Like people aren't there for that necessarily. They're there for dragons and they're there for epic storytelling. But that was one of the first times where I was like, ooh, this is kind of like almost flying without the radar on at this point.

Like I have no idea like where this is going here. And also like kind of like within the sort of realm of this show, how are you supposed to feel about obviously something that's incredibly taboo and, you know, all that. But like, within this show, I'm like, is this, is this, is this all, like, all good? Like, are we supposed to be, like, rooting for Damon and Renira here? Like, I don't, well, here's, I think that's a great point. And I agree with you. Like, there are moments in the show when it goes, not just off the, the map of what

we're expecting, but maybe off the map of decency and what we all should be seeing. And I, I kind of applaud it for continuing Game of Thrones, you know, great history of being super gnarrel. But I continue to think that it's kind of a, you know, this is an analogy we've used before, but when you make a show, you lay down your stakes of your fence and like this is the patch that the show is going to exist in. And that's often a more complicated decision than it may seem. And I continue to think that maybe this show has framed things slightly and correctly for the, larger audience than the George R. Martin obsessives. Do you remember the great John Mullaney bit that he did after Trump was elected, which was called Horse in the Hospital? Yeah.

Where he was like, the thing about the Trump presidency is not that this is a weird, insane lunatic who is now president. It's that there is a horse in a hospital running wild. And we don't know what to do because the horse is in the hospital. The Targaryens being the rulers of this world is kind of like a horse in the hospital, but the show is told from the perspective of the horses who are like, we live in this hospital and it's great

and we can go in all the rooms because we're horses. There's only a small, small, sideways reference in this episode to the Targaryen's curious history about baffing their relatives. Yeah, Damon's like, this is totally actually within the realm of accepted Targaryen behavior.

When we got down on street level in, what's it called again, flea bottom. I assume that's where they are. Well, yeah, sure. No, I'm sorry, they were in the theater district. Forgive me. It was like, but it was more off-Broadway.

It was like a little bit like La Mama down in the village. When you get down there, I kind of was hoping that the Punch and Judy show that would be put on would be less about the people being like, we don't want a lady king, which has been, you know, we get that. Historically, yeah. I kind of wish. Hustle towards female leadership. I'd like to know a little bit more about how they feel about these lunatic Aryan Targaryens with their dragons, you know, who I guess sleep with each other a lot or at least plausibly consider marrying their daughters to their newborn sons. Right.

Like that's perverse and weird and seems like flawed. And I would, I just miss that perspective on the world. And it is, I'll just keep saying it's a Tyrion thing, right? Like I just want a Tyrion. Yeah. And then I think also like, at least right now, the choice of. focus on three or four characters in depth rather than nine across the board. And I think that this is actually, Mal and I talked a little bit about this with The Lord of the Rings Show. But the thing that

I actually enjoy about Rings of Power is that like, if you don't like this, if you're not like vibing with this part, guess what? In three minutes, they're going to a whole other part. It's like the weather in San Francisco. Exactly. Bring a sweater or throw it in the trash. Who cares? You know, like it's just like it's gonna you're gonna need both and also all those guys have hairy feet right like it's actually very much like san francisco go but when you go to like when you watch game of thrones and let's say you find the surcy jamie jamie relationship stomach turning even though that show very wisely in retrospect kept those two apart for a majority of the series but let's say that's like you know you watch the first episode and you get straight up incest between twins that's that would that was

was like a like a real like cold water splash when you fish you shipped it by the way well here's the thing first of all they allowed those two people to be incredibly charismatic with one another look look at chris on his back foot he's already got his talking points no my point is is that then the other side of it was prince charming rob was still in this show you know what i mean like they had like all these other this wide variety of characters and as the show went along you got to see oh this person is as morally corruptible as this person who I thought was bad, you know, and like the Tyrion arc and the Rob arc and the John arc and the Danny arc and Jamie and Cersie and everybody else winds up starting to kind of draw. It's not just like, it's like one of the tapestries that they

try to get Damon to go look at. It's like it needs to be widescreen. And I hope we're going there. Well, I think that you're making the right point. But I also think that our critiques are more broad than just about this show. This is actually a conversation about the state of IP television, as it often is. When you make a cup of tea with a tea bag, it is fantastic.

It is full of the flavor of the tea. Then maybe later you want more tea. You were like, maybe I can get a little more flavor out of this bag. It's going to be a little bit weaker. It is inevitably the case when you keep going back to the same source material. It is not going to be as good as the first time

or as full flavor. No, but I've been in Europe recently, so I'm trying on some new affectations. I would also say that it's an issue of the difference between a show and an expanded universe. Game of Thrones, both in terms of its storytelling scope, but also what it could do in terms of establishing a beachhead for an entire universe and world and type of storytelling and brand, it could be all of the stories. there's an intentional pivot now, because there are going to be more of them, for each of these shows to be more specialized

and tell a story. So it cannot just by nature be as expansive or as all-inclusive as a Game of Thrones was, and that's something that we're seeing in the Star Wars universe as well repeatedly. I think the next piece of that puzzle is also budgetary. Now, this is the number one priority for HBO Max discoveries Azlai Incorporated, of course,

and it is returning on the investment. Sure. They are not skimping on this show. No. But it is still a business. And there was a dragon in this episode. Brief, but there was a dragon that bumped into a boat on a CGI ocean. Yeah.

That costs amortized or whatever overseas. That's why you don't have Ari and the Hound. You know what I mean? Like, that's why you don't have four sets in five countries. It is. It also makes it easier for them. I'm trying to be paid. You know, like, I think that there is a school of thought.

There is like a sort of discourse out there that like a lot of what we're seeing in these first few episodes. Yeah. Would in another show or if it was a film be the voiceover preamble, you know, and that we're getting a lot of history before we inevitably get, and I don't think this is a spoiler because it's been so well documented, this time jump where the cast changes, you know, and where we get different versions. versions of Allison and Renera. And so when that happens, I do wonder whether the show then locks into what it is. And I assume the way things are going that there will be a schism soon

that separates these characters and forces this show to be outside of just five people like snooping on one another in a castle. Yeah, I just, I think that, and I know I got to let go of this because this is not an argument I'm going to win, this is an argument that's settled. And the success of the shows, you know, proves it in the open and free marketplace. You know, shout out to the Iron Bank. I don't really like shows

that are previously ons for six episodes. I don't really appreciate shows that feel they need to, like, lay historical groundwork before they get to the show that they might be or want to be or that might be better. Like, it doesn't really work for me, honestly. And we haven't even done the time jump yet, to your point, like we know, and I don't think this is a spoiler, that other actors are coming to play these parts. Yeah. So we're going to be telling other parts of their lives, I would guess soon.

But what does that do for our relationship to this version of them, if it's all preamble? You know, it does keep you at a remove. And again, and I mean this sincerely, I think that the people working on this show, whether it's Ryan Condal, Miguel Sopachnik, who was his co-show runner for this season and who has removed himself from the future seasons,

they are doling this out in ways that are just in arguably successful. You know, the episodes are paced well. And entertaining. And entertaining. The set pieces, when they come, are welcome. And, you know, it actually, I know there actually was a group of, you know, a large segment of the fandom that almost enjoyed doing Game of Thrones as a second screen thing because you could just constantly be like learning the history while you were watching or whatever.

I think this show is very, very well-paced to avoid a second-screen thing because you're never quite sure what's going to happen next and there's always a little bit of violence or sex or intrigue. It's well-done. It's well argued. But I think that I am a little... I wish I cared, I guess. Is that maybe that's a simple...

That's the more simple way to put it. I think that there's... I mean, you know, I'm trying to remember... I was pretty instantly smitten with Game of Thrones once I started watching it, which was a little bit of a delusalful. delay before I started watching it because I think it's some skepticism for the genre and just being like

do I want to watch something like that? That's because we pranked you and told you there were hobbits in it. Do you think that there's like an issue maybe with the variety of characters that we're seeing? Like I was thinking about why we keep getting these scenes of guys sitting at that table and being like, well, here's the sort of chessboard that we're looking at and here's who Reneer needs to marry to like offset the losses that we would

experience if this happens or maybe. maybe we just need to swallow it and Reneer needs to marry Corliss's son again, you know, like all the stuff that they're kind of doing. And, you know, the show goes into a completely different gear anytime Matt Smith's on the screen, but because he keeps getting ostracized from the kingdom, he's only in it, like, I would say 20%, 30% of the time. So you're kind of leaving out the most electric performance and electric character that you've got.

But he's so volatile that I understand, you know, Damon can't just be there. all the time being like, I'll take a fourth wife and why don't we just do this? And I'm going to do that. He's not, he has made his polyamory clear on all of his social media profiles. You know what I mean? That's true. Like, he is not just here to make friends. I get it.

But he's not doing great. Like, how many years has he been like, you know, I could take a second wife. Also, I want to see, what's the first wife's deal? He's not, first of all, yeah, talk about slander. I mean, if she is going to be the new Vera from Cheers. She's just been in High Garden for like six years, just being like, he said he was going to be away for a week. She's in Mar-a-Lago, isn't she? Isn't that where, isn't that his keep? She's, she's not in Dragonstone.

She's, oh, she's not there. Where is she? Sario was in Dragonstone, and then she seems to have bounced and now is back in King's Landing and was like rehabbing Damon. I had a real-up, I had a really serious question about that. So did she just, was she just like, I'm going to get an apartment in the city? Was that like a Pietta tear for her? I'm going to ask Mal and Joe when we record, but like I could. not understand that. I didn't understand. They had that breakup scene, I guess, sort of, where she was just like, you put a target on my back because you said I'm pregnant, but I'm not. But I didn't understand that that was a breakup scene because then I guess he spent three more

years hunting, you know, fresh crustaceans. Well, maybe that's why she left. She was just like, you have two into your work. Have you asked Mallory, Mallory's from Baltimore. Have you talked to her about crab cakes? Extensively. That's come up? Okay, good. I want to see the spice market, but I want to see the old bay vendor, who's just like for three years had the best market bubble. You know what I mean? When like crabs were really, really popular. Yeah.

And then suddenly the bottom fell out. You know what I'm getting at? And I think this show needs a north. This show needs what's the other part of the world? You know, like this, like right now we're all in Kings Landing. We're all in the small council room. everybody's a general or a politician, they all chat with each other about like what should or shouldn't be done.

The difference is that in the original show, there was a whole other part, two other parts. There was the Danny plot and there was the Stark's plot outside of King's Landing. But also there were two potentially more, I might not be counting them correctly, absolutely existential threats that were going to, we understood on a, you know, granular level, even before we knew what the world was,

going to touch all of these disparate things. So winter was coming. I mean, in the Game of Thrones pilot, it begins with the White Walkers before then we get into the rest of the world, and then the dire wolves and everything else. So that was the marker laid down that this was going to be the story eventually,

and it was going to be major. We would, you know, they'd be unspooling it slowly. And then the season ended with, wait, there might be dragons too. Right. So in this world, the threats are, I guess, Corlis is big mad still?

No, I mean, I think that they're true. Yeah, well, so I think this show will ultimately be about a Targary and Civil War, right? Like, there, isn't this, I think that that is where we go. And please, you know, I'm not trying to be falsely stupid about this. I think that this is more about a family at the head of power of this realm tearing itself apart.

Maybe. And then there's, There is also now this added wrinkle of a Targaryan inheritance that is the knowledge of the prince who was promised and that they are like somehow guardians of this knowledge that one day we're going to need to have a king, a prince who comes along to defend the world against this unnamed evil, right? Yeah. seasons of the other show, you know, so that's just punting, punting it to then. I just continue to wish we had a little more, if it's going to be about the Targaryens, like, let's get into it. You know, I, I, there are some dynamics here. How much more into it can we get, though? Well, I guess let's let's get some perspective on it. Right. A little bit outside reflecting perspective.

But if we're going to stay internal within the castle walls, this episode did something that I think was overdue, but I wish it went further. Like I, I, I, and this is the first season stuff too, right? Like, the dials aren't always correct on the big mixing board, uh, behind the scenes. Like, you figure out the show as you're making it and as you're watching it and as people are watching it. And so there's no reason to think some of these things can't be tweaked and adjusted. But the scene between Allison and Reneira where it's just like, I kind of wish you were

still my friend, like let's yes and that. And the reason we're not friends is because you're sleeping with my dad. it gave birth to my usurper brother. Like, let's talk about it. Let's go a step further and how deeply fucked up and weird this is among the six people who live in this big house.

You know what I mean? I wish that there's no room for them. You were like a mandolin player in that courtyard and you could just slide right into that scene and be like, we're not talking about what's really in between the two of you right now, guys. I don't think I'm a mandolin player.

I'm like the family therapist in the first season of succession who breaks space in the hot tub. Or Dr. Strauss. Or Dr. Strauss from the patient. I am definitely chained down in the crypts. And you're like,

Vasaris, I just don't think that we can really engage in therapy while I'm changed. And he's like, but I brought a Dornish curry for you today. Yeah, right. I am definitely into that mashup.

It's so, okay, but let's do power rankings here. Because again, we are in the weeds of the show, which remains kind of a marvel in terms of its production quality and its scope. And again, it's professionalism at being Game of Thrones. Like, it's so hard. And so when I pick nits about the character motivations or the particular like MC Escher-esque couplings that we glimpse in the pleasure houses, I don't want to give short shrift to the hundreds of people who are making this happen.

You're not. We're just having a conversation. It's okay. No, no, I know. But I also do think that in the spirit of like we, I think when we talk about shows, we try to talk about them like, you know, at 360. We talk about all the aspects of them and including their place in the marketplace or whatever. Like, it's wild that they are delivering on this to the degree that they are. This is unquestionably Game of Thrones, even if they hadn't just Bogart the theme music to lull us into submission at the start of every hour. It helps. But it helps. Yeah. But what are your Chris Ryan, Game of Thrones superfan, podcaster extraordinaire? What's your power rankings of people? Is Damon your number one in terms of who is the character that I'm interested? He is coming out of the Eastern Conference as the definitive number one seed.

I just think that he's like obviously a piece of shit, but is kind of the most interesting person that's been on one of these shows in a while. You know, and I think that, you know, Game of Thrones, like, kind of sanded down their characters over the years. And I think a lot of the main characters, with the exception of Searcy and a few others, were sort of directed towards being pretty good guys, you know? Like, especially in that last season where it was like, you're either on this side or that side.

And he has got, like, that old school, amazing combination of Jamie, Tyrion, little Little Finger, you know, just that kind of like not only bad boy but also like what do you want you know because that's the most interesting thing about the targaryens is that and i thought about this watching my second favorite character who's which is auto yes where i'm like what's the what's the goal here is it sustained and uninterrupted shadow power is it being the grandfather of the king you know which is what you would be if if agon had been named

Is it, you know, seeing Viserius deposed and having Alicent be queen with you basically being the puppet master? Like all these things that I find like those sort of like questions to be really interesting facing those characters. Third, and I would say probably in a real world, I would say in certain episodes second is Reneer. I do think that Billy Alcox doing a great job. I think that it's a challenging role to. how old is she supposed to be 17? Like what I think? I think she's up to 16, 17 now, yeah.

You know, I think it's, I think she's doing a great job, and I think Reneiro is obviously like a fascinating character. I think that the restrictions placed on women in the world that she is in restricts her character a little bit. Yeah, I agree. And I guess it would, it would be curious, I'd be curious to see if there was an era that they could have chosen in this completely made up timeline where maybe it was different.

You know, maybe there was a time where it was more matriarchal or where there was more. And I'm not trying to like make it game of woke. I'm just like, we know. We get it. We understand the restrictions placed on these powerful, ambitious, smart, capable women. And you're not really teaching us lessons anymore. You're just sort of circling it. And I think my other, Chris, thank you for your positive explanation.

Let me add one more criticism to the pot. I didn't mean to be as negative, but I just, there's some things that I'm finding frustrating. And I love the character of Otto because I love Risi Fonz. And I just think he's such a powerful actor that his presence changes the gravity of the scenes that he's in. But I also think the character thus far is not necessarily worthy of his gravity and intelligence because his plan is, I'm going to send my daughter to the king. And then I'm just going to hang out. Littlefinger is a great example because Littlefinger was absolutely devious, but also brilliant and scheming and good at chess. So he was a few moves ahead.

He also, you're going to say the same thing I was going to say. He was in love with Kat Stark. Bang. That's exactly the thing. So he had a part of his character, an essential part of his character, that was deeply human and vulnerable. It was irrational. Like everything with the can to the king or all these political actors are always doing things that are like, so considered and manipulative,

but he had this one weakness. Yes. Was that he still thought that he could get with this woman that he was in love with from his childhood, even though she was married to Ned, and then eventually his widow, and then eventually the mother of the king of the north.

So it was like, dude, it's not going to happen, but he let that govern so many of his decisions. Yeah, and I would love a character on this show to have one piece like that. Just add one more Lego brick to the construction here. And we are wrapping our arms around Damon because his passions are so strong and the performance is so great.

And he runs counter to everyone else, which just makes him naturally more charismatic and interesting. But even if you strip that down, I don't know what motivates him yet. I mean, being super into your knees. maybe is an interesting and unique motivation. I can't comment. But is it just power?

Is it just being the second son? What he says to Vassaris is, I want to marry Reneira. And what is he? Like, he essentially is like purify the Targaryen bloodline and like return to the like sort of terrifying power that this family is capable of. Because Viseris doesn't ride dragons.

Viceris is literally falling to pieces. Vesaris is, you know, well-liked, but kind of ineffectual. He gets dominated by the people on his small council more often than not. And I think that Damon is like, we keep it inside the family in all senses of the word, and nobody can fuck with us because, as I just proved with the crab feeder, if push comes to shove, I'm just going to get on this dragon and regulate. Yeah, I agree. I think it, you know, like with everything with the show, it comes down to the Targaryens.

And if that's what the show is about and if that is the furnace that is powering it, okay, but let's like make sure we have the right perspective on it and we're invested in it. And it's as interesting as it could be because power for the sake of power, like rooting for the Targaryans to stay king because they've been king, kind of not only runs counter to dramatic interest and audience interest, it runs counter to George Martin's entire project, at least as far as I understood it, you know. And so, again, it's just a question of where you lay down your stakes. And with a show as well-funded and as successful and potentially as nimble in terms of chronology and history as this, this is all fixable and may, in fact, already have been fixed. As you said, this may just be prologue that will hang over everything in interesting shadow.

And we'll be like, those first six episodes were like this and yeah. But this is also, you know, I should say like this is also to have conversations like this is why we, we choose to watch these shows week to week. Like, we could have watched the first six, I think, and we chose not to you because I think it's more interesting to be in it. To put on our stinking robes and pretend to be page boys and hook up with family members. Kaya, strike that last part.

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pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. So should we touch rings a little bit? I do want to touch these rings. So the third episode came out last night. It was the first one that wasn't directed by J.A. Beahona. And I thought while I noticed there were some differences in the filmmaking, I didn't think that it was a huge drop-off at all.

No, I just want to say, Wayne Yip, great director. I thought he did a great job. And I thought I, like, I basically, I think I realized one of the things that's really like sort of energizing about watching what is essentially like with all due respect like a pretty corny show in terms of like it's a lord of the ring show so it's like very very high fantasy and it's also like the the characters i think are very sincere for the most part and very you know you know there's harfuts and elves and stuff so it's not like i'm not going to it to like draw comparisons to contemporary society or anything like that like which is totally fine this show moves

very fast though. Like there's not only like does it cut between these two, these multiple storylines that they're telling and they've introduced I think quite deftly, but there is a lot of movement and action within the scenes. The, the heartfoots are on the road. Like the elves are always running from one place to another to sort of investigate

this rising threat. And speaking of that rising threat, you know, you made a really good point about like, well, in Thrones from the second it started, there was this danger in that, that we were trying to figure out.

And then by the end of the first season, there's the dragons. And then multiple seasons in, you have this prophecy that we're trying to figure out. I think that honestly, like, though, like,

what is happening with these tunnels and these orcs and this ADR guy? Like, I, and I know what that is. It's like a good, motivating darkness that's creeping on the edges of this show. So I think that your,

your mileage may vary on some of the, like, some of the dialogue or whatever, but like I'm enjoying the velocity of the show, I guess is what I should say. Yeah, I think

and the velocity shows up in different ways too because the show is absolutely doing world building. And I didn't know. I'm going to be honest with you guys about Numanor. Is that right? Like the chill island

where people are just like, we're Greece now. And honeymooners not welcome. But, But there wasn't that much backstory to it, right? Like, there's some, there's some dialogue between, with Colladriel explaining, like, oh, this is what this place is. But we're just there.

And it has a little bit of that, the E.L. Doctor O, like, I went into the bathroom and Teddy Roosevelt was there, like, historical fiction vibe where... E.L. Doctor O'Sildor. Islore is, like, literally, like, the most important person, and other than Frodo, you know, and, like, the whole... fucking like history of the world there. Is that true? Yeah.

I don't know. That's cool. That's chill. I mean, guys, this is our first time really talking about this show. And just so you know, I texted Chris last night and I was like, yo, orcs can talk. Did not know that. I was like, oh, this is like when they went from slow zombies to fast zombies because now these guys talk like their, let's make another. Yeah.

I was like, are they just E.M. Forster side characters that, teach the main characters about how they should hold on to their steady sinecures and jobs in the in the Clark's office. Right. No. They're just, they're just cockney dudes with bad skin. I don't know what it is.

I don't know anything about this. Because I would love to know, I'm sure that there's in some like appendix an explanation for why they don't like the sun. But they're not vampires, right? Yeah. No, Chris,

I mean, they're a little bit like you and your wife, right? Like, they're just like, we could be out here this. weekend, but we choose not to be. No, no, no, no, no. Don't, don't besmirch me. I tan very well. I just don't tan well on the Pacific side. The Pacific side of your body?

No, I find that the sun on the West Coast either doesn't work or burns me. But when I go to the East Coast, I look like Don Johnson in 1984. It's true. My legs still look good from my trip to Maine. Can we just, can we do an extra budget? guest today, because I, we have to end this one soon, but I have a lot to talk about. Wait, do you, I mean, do you actually not think that there's a difference between the way the sun feels on the West Coast and the East Coast? Is that just me? Well, I think that the way that it appears in the sky, in terms of its vengeance and what

times is quite different. Like, you can burn here when it's cloudy, you know, in a different way, or it could just pop out and be like, hello, I have reduced you to ash. But broadly, speaking, no, I think it's the same fire orb. But, you know, I think the orcs... We should do the Panama Jack challenge where we put on

like zero SPF tanning oil at the very same time on separate coasts and see you gets more tan. It's rewatchable sexy beast, but it's just, we're just recreating it. I want to know what the SPF of those org rags are because they don't

seem effective enough, is my point. Okay, so no, I had no idea that any of these people are important or what the hell's going on. And I'm okay with that. You know, the show, I actually do think I'm a good test case for this because when the show is moving, I respond to it. Yes. You know, when it does things that, again, I'm watching these shows in tandem, as is, to a degree, the world. So I think it is impossible not to compare them. But I really, maybe more so than I ought to if I was watching it alone. But moments of friendship or connection, like when Gladriel goes to the old library law offices or whatever, and it's like, these scrolls are interesting.

They're like to help you elf. Or, you know, when the stranger is like, we're friends. Like he's like the Hulk. He's like, we friends. Like, I'm like, that's so nice that you live in a fictional fantasy universe where you could be friends. That's part of life, too. That's nice.

Game of Thrones doesn't have any of it. of that. So I appreciate that. Okay. I think that that's being well done. You know, at times the, I think this show is also still figuring out how to tell these stories in a modern way. And, you know, I am not going to fall into the trap of like, are we sure we still want to be telling these stories 60, 70 years on?

I don't know how much meat is left on these bones, regardless of that argument, which is a dead end. I was struck by how when the cockney orcs slit the elf's throat, the elf was like, oh, I retire to my bedchamber and expire. Which I was like, oh, I guess this is a show for kids where like no blood comes out of the jugular vein. Minutes later, in the same scene, Hallbrain, bust the dude skull open

and the blood flies onto the camera lens saving Private Ryan style. Yeah, my main elf dude is like, let me take your arm, let me now, Just change. Let me just Lawrence Taylor it. He's not an elf. Who's not an elf?

Hallbrand. He's a dude. I thought the dude who does the arm breaking is our main elf guy. No. He's a guy. He breaks that guy's arm who, like, he's not an elf. He's just traveling. Chris?

Who's the elf that's our POV elf? Gladriel. In the elf. The lady. No, the dude. The dude who's in love with the human from homeland. Who's the prisoner? Who's from Homeland?

The woman who makes the tinctures. She was on homeland. She was good. But I'm not talking about her. She's the human who lives in the town. She has an illicit thing with the elf ranger. Oh, Bronwyn. Yeah, her.

Right. For sure. But what's the elf's name? Oh, uh, Arrindere. Are we sure? I think so. You are 100%. No, that dude is in prison.

That guy is basically in the raid too. That guy who does like all the violence on the orcs and stuff. Yes. The one who's like, I will cut. down the tree, but I will whisper an apology to it. Yes. Like Francis Malman cooking meat. I thought you were talking about the dude in Nuremore who's like, I am now going to break

this guy's arm against a wall. Oh, I mixed it up. Yeah, that's when that happened. I'm sorry. So I was the source of confusion there. The orcs were just sort of like chained to death. Yes. Broadly.

Yes. The other arm. What's the human's name? Hallbrand. Cool. That's actually a pretty dope name. I would choose that. I wish my name was Holbrand.

I'm super into that. that. Right. So just in terms of like where is the story pitched, right? Like the people aren't really, they don't make jokes, they don't have subtext, and yet sometimes they could snap people's bodies like twigs. It's finding its way. It's finding its way. But one thing that I appreciated, I must say, is that in the set piece at the end, the sort of the jailbreak that doesn't really go great, I liked that the fighting was elevated. in a sort of like Hong Kong action movie kind of way that felt elevated in the same way

the genre storytelling is elevated. Like let's make this kind of, is there a, maybe there's a word in German for it. Like let's make all of this look like it should be on a tapestry. I kind of liked the way that was sort of kicked up out of reality into that space. I enjoyed that scene a lot. I did want to note that the wolf pig

that is loosed upon them was the first evidence I've seen that maybe some of the scenes, GGI houses were busy making Shehulk twerk twerk that week. Like, it was real Harryhausen, which I was into, but I don't think it was supposed to be. You know what I mean? Like this, prior to that in this episode, I was like, Amazon just locked down the houses, the real houses. It's really not about United States and it came from a process.

I was thinking about this the other day because like, you guys been good. You know, when they're pulling into Nauramore and it's like, I got to admit, like, at first I was like, this looks like a magic eye poster. and then the more you went into it, I was like, damn they got some good statues up in here. Like, they got, like,

I'm really interested in, like, what's the vibe in this spot? Because it seems incredibly clean. Yeah, you know, like, I felt the same way.

But also, like, they did do detail. It kept going, where I was like, oh, they thought about this. This would be really funny

is if one of these shows that they're like, we're going to spend $250 million on this first season or whatever, they, like, hired, like, Werner Herzog to do it.

And he was like, I must make everything practical of, and build the city of Norma from the ground up and basically like bankrupted Amazon because he built half a statue. It was like, I have finished. Yeah, my work here's done.

My labors have finished. I weren't enough dwarves in this episode for me, though. I know, but I think you're going to get them next week. They were in the coming attractions, Duren back. The other question I had was, what's the guy's name Hallbrand? Yeah. That's so cool.

Will you call me that just to try it out? Yeah, sure. Maybe like next time we go out. I'll change your name in my phone to that. And then I'll change the picture comes up when you call me to that dude. Great. You'll pick up all the time. You'll be so excited.

My only thing with that guy is, you know, he's a guest there. You know, he's just, he's just hanging out. He's like the first, it's like the Meiji Restoration in Japan. Like they were like, nobody comes in. And then one guy gets let in. and he goes right to the tavern and suddenly he's just throwing coin around. Suddenly he's flashing money.

And so I asked you, does just everyone accept the euro? Like, does he just happen to have the right? I think he got a per diem. You know what I mean? Like I think when they were like, because there is a weird thing where they're like, you're not our prisoners,

but you can't leave. Does he have to keep his receipts? I don't know. Like, I don't know what. Maybe there's like an internal program like a, like a, you know, like a workplace kind of software that he eventually has to upload those things.

I'm not sure. Oh, God, those things can be such a drag. Yeah. Do you think they have staplers there? I would be funny if he was like, hold on, let me just take a picture of this before we go. Wait, also, can we just one moment? Have you ever made the same face

that Galadryl made when the guy was like, would you like to ride a horse? No. I've never been that happy in my life. I would love to be that happy once. Yeah. I don't have anything else for us today. We were produced by Kaya McMullen.

We'll be back next Sunday. I think that nerd out Sunday nights, they're working for the night. Yeah, what do you, well, maybe Kaya can as a passive. Six-sided die Sundays? There's something to be done here. That's good.

But we're going to be back before then. Is this how you're telling me that is Holbram going down to hosting with you? That was a savage way to do it. Well, he broke my arm. You know. Andy was great seeing you. Have a great weekend.

Or I guess your weekend's over because it's Sunday night. Have a great week and I'll see you on Thursday. When people are listening to this, they've already seen the Eagles game. So they're very curious if they're happy or not for us. We got let that dog out of the cage. That's what Nick Siriani said. Turn my music up. Was he talking about the wolf pig?

Is that what it looks like? It's like a little bit misshapen. Or captain. All right, man. Talk to you soon. Bye.