The Watch - ‘House of the Dragon’ Is Back. Was It Worth the Wait? Plus, ‘Star City’ Episode 5.

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about their feelings around ‘Toy Story 5’ (7:44) and the somewhat surprising cancellation of Netflix’s ‘The Boroughs’ (13:59). Then they break down the ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 premiere (28:36). Later, they discuss ‘Star City’ Episode 5 (55:43). Finally, The Watch: After Dark (01:05:11). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jamie Yukich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in. Loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify advertising. You're among fans. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he came here on Sheep Steeler, but he's leaving a moon dancer. It's Andy Greenwald. Those are dragons. Those are dragons. They are not brands of Ford Explorers.

Electric vehicles. Greenwald, great to see you. The watch is Spotify.com. the watch underscore the watch pod underscore on Instagram

if you want to follow us you can watch us on the Ringer dash TV YouTube channel and on Spotify where I hope

you listen to us but you can listen to us anywhere CB radio I hear UK pirate radio

DJs are playing us is that do you think Kirstarmer is going to go directly from Downing Street

to the pirate radio boat Mandem Mandem hour yeah yeah he's like

this is a new one from Ariel tune. This really takes me back. 2014. We have a lot of television to talk about today. We have two shows to talk about, yeah. We got House of the Dragon today. We got Star City today.

I also want to talk to you about some cancellations. Some people? No. Although they tried to cancel Olivia Rodriguez because she likes Pinkerton. Did you see that? No. Damn, you got to get online, brother. Incredible stuff is happening. I do not. I do want to, speaking of online, I do want to just prove that we are responsive because for people,

who watch our podcast. Yeah. Some noted that last week before we were joined by Hero Marai and Katie Diplold of Widows Bay, we were seated much like Michael Keaton and Kim Basinger in Batman. We have now perhaps overcorrected. We are now sitting at a big table for the big show. Yeah. Small table for a smaller show.

It's intimate to it. Yeah. I noticed like you were regulating your volume a little bit differently. I'm also trying to save my voice. I have several pods this week. And also... Far be it from me to get in the... I want to be less didactic.

I want to listen more. Really? Yeah. You're going on a listening tour? Like Andy Burnham on his March South? Guys, he's running. He's running. I think you also want to protect your voice because in the latest update of living in an apocalyptic hellscape,

we have been breathing pure burnt ammonia fumes all weekend here in Los Angeles. We can't confirm or deny that. Okay, Karen Bass. I think the fire department is like it's not toxic. Sure. I mean, when has a fire department ever alighted the truth? It was pretty gnarly here this weekend, but also we did, at least I did lose a little bit of voice celebrating this weekend, which was nice. Thank you for attending.

You were celebrating Iran's draw yesterday? Both. Yeah. Both equally. You know, that's like Adam is starting to rub off on me. No, we keep them guessing culturally. A little parent corner here for a second. It was a great weekend.

we celebrated, we shouted a little bit, we got you and Phoebe on the dance floor eventually. For your daughter's bat mitzvah, right? I said it, but you were talking about Iran over it, which was noted. But it's actually kind of beautiful that we could still sit down at a small table despite our clear geographic device.

We're not so different. We're not so different. It was a wonderful, wonderful night. I've not been to a bat mitzvah in 35 years. Do you still think you have the same Riz that you did then? Because you talk a big game about the old days.

Well, this one was more, there was more activities in terms of like, I mean, I thought you guys did a lovely job with photo booth, soft serve machine. I mean, such,

such luxuries were not afforded. You're definitely making it sound a lot. The Jewish women of Philadelphia when I was coming up, you know? Bigger than it was. But yeah. And I just remember

there was a lot more like ceremony to the first dance, you know? Oh. And that's where I came in. That's where I stepped up. So briefly, I'm sure the House of Dragon fans are loving this. They're not going to love what we are going to say.

Yeah, set the scene because I do... In my memory, and this could be me, like, you know, this could be apocryphal, this could be me, like, you know, this could be apocryphal. This could be me, like, telling myself a story in order to live. No, I don't believe that. I think that there was, like, a first dance, usually at these bat mitzvizviz. And it was, like, girls' choice, like, the celebrated woman's choice, young woman's choice. The newly christened, newly anointed Jewish adults. Yes, got to choose who she was going to dance with.

And I felt like I got, I went like two for three on bat mitzviz, where I was picked first. That's an incredible batting average. Yeah. Much like Cooper Flagg. That's a different sport. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, it did not auger, like, insane amounts of success with women in middle school, but it was still like, you know, I thought it was a learning experience for both of us. I would say two things.

One, you're not wrong. I don't remember any particular ceremony, but I do remember the intense awkwardness of slow dancing at the age of 13 when all women were two feet taller than us. In fact, some still remain in that way. I'm not saying much has changed, but at that time, that was quite intense. I would say that at least in my now limited observations, the politics and culture of teen dancing have changed in that it is now much more of a group swathing the dance floor and then immediately retreating. reading when the more viral hits are not being played. And interestingly, the number one, people who have kids in that range now, I think we'll understand this.

But the number one, like, dance floor filler of 2026 is Icona Icona Pops. Charlie X, CX. Collabor. I don't care. I love it. Yeah. That's the one. Where, like, do you think that that is purely from TikTok or was it featured in something

that they are into? I think what they are into is TikTok. I mean, it was crazy to watch. much fat song blow up bigger than any Taylor song you played. Yeah. Any... Didn't you curate the playlist? I was not the DJ.

No, there was some... Kirstarmer was the DJ. Unfortunately, he has been... He has submitted his resignation. Yeah. No, no, no. I was not allowed to touch the core playlist. I was allowed to offer an alternative slate, much like the Green Party.

Sure. And the DJ who did show up to set up wearing a talking head. t-shirt and I was like my brother this will be a long frustrating night for both of us I was I I offered a slate of alternate electors is what I'm saying and he did pull from that sometimes but primarily it was my daughters as it should be her playlists I mean it was her night it was great were you there when this when the ceremony ended and we everyone went outside and the playlist I was told to make for the like the wine hour hit and immediately deep cuts for from Wes Anderson movies started playing.

You were going into like Mirage era, Fleetwood Mac and stuff. And, uh, and, and, and my, my daughter ran up to me and I was like, this is going to be a beautiful moment. And she said, what is this? You have to stop this immediately. Wait, what did you put on? I didn't even hear it. It was, it was, it was like, I was like, these are things that have. Is you trying to explain back rooms to like 13 people there?

You're never off the clock. You're never off the clock. Never off the clock. Yeah. Uh, no, it was like, exactly. what you think. I'm like, these are songs that are not unfamiliar to her during her life, and thus I hope would not be

unappealing. Yeah, like love goes to Buildings on Fire was playing when she was getting her third Diet Coke and was like this has to end. Where do I want to start today in earnest? You know what? Why don't we... I did have movie corner too. I was going to say, Parent Corner continues, and I'm just, like

I said, I'm listening. Then are we going to talk British politics? If you want to. Of course I want too. You want to do Burnham Mentum first or Toy Story 5? Give me Burnham. No, you do Toy Story 5 because I feel like that it kind of ties into the weekend that you had of. And it ties the and then the Burnham stuff ties into the kind of like high level geopolitical maneuvering of House of the Dragon.

Okay, we got it. No, I went to the cinema yesterday. It was an emotional weekend having this event and then Father's Day. Did you take both kids to it? Of course, yeah. Did your older child express any interest in seeing backrooms or obsession instead? Like, they're not starting to be curious about, you know, the more... No, she doesn't... I offered her, I invited her...

The edgier cinema. I invited her to join me to watch Widows Bay, and she was like, I don't want to be scared. Okay. So, no, we did see Toy Story 5, and it was excellent. That's my take. I was really, really surprised and impressed by it. I'm trying to think if I've seen one of them. I like know what happens in them kind of.

Do you know? What's your, you probably saw a Toy Story 30 years ago. Oh, boy. Right? And the little boy gets these toys when he moves to a new house and they're like his friends, right?

No, he moves to a new house and they leave the toys behind at the old house and they have to get to him, right? This is the early toy story, yeah. Yeah. That's right. And they got four more movies out of this. Yeah.

Okay. And then there's a Chris Evans, like, spin-off? So Toy Story 2 went woke. I'm not trying to be nasty. Introduced Jesse. Okay. Played by Joan Cusack, who is essentially the star of this fifth film.

Okay. And then Toy Story 3 is held up by like A.O. Scott of the New York Times is like the pinnacle of Dattington Cinema because Toy Story 3 is both brilliant and funny, but also has one of the most metal endings of any children's movie ever. Metal like dark. It is so, Kai, are you familiar with these movies? You know, I watched like the first two, I think, when I was a kid and I haven't kept up with the franchise. Chris nodding. Chris understands his voting base so well.

I'm so out of step with the Times. So Toy Story 3, not to spoil too much, but Toy Story 3 crescendos with all of our toy friends on a conveyor belt to an incinerator to be destroyed. That is like, that's the last scene. And they're like scrabbling up the incinerator belt. They're like, how will we save ourselves through our various toy friends? mechanisms like the slinky is stretching or whatever. And then silently, they all share a look and then just hold hands accepting their fate that they will all burn.

And this moment is held to a degree that I do believe people generationally who watch this at a young age will have a different response to mortality. Really? It is so intense. They don't burn. And I take it that they made two more movies that those guys are okay. They were okay. four was kind of like deep

Chapex straight to streaming era like it's fine It's about Tom Hanks's Woody character Going off the reservation in pursuit of any the Annie Potts voiced little Bo Peep statue Oh wow Great Annie Potts performance but I would say an inessential Entry into the franchise and so I was shocked So you've seen all of these

I mean this this you have the children you gotta feed the children The most recent one I did think think with my cynical jaded mind would be another one of the like we just got to keep pumping this for cash because Pixar is not doing so great with the original content. Andrew Stanton who directed the first one directed this one and the headline is that it was like ah the age of toys is over it's like streaming and devices and it's going to get them yeah and it introduces a like an early like childhood tablet voiced by Greta Lee but the movie itself was both it was very surprising it was very formally clever in ways that I was

very impressed with and it was very funny and it is also more than anything it is about connection and friendship and it's a Joan Cusack victory lap and also and I know this is going to matter to you and your honestly fragile voting coalition

this movie is justice for Tim Allen I saw some Tim Allen image rehabilitation stuff start this weekend when I say I saw it I just I left Twitter during the World Cup and somebody He was like, Tim Allen really was goaded for this. So I do think this was part of the thinking, and I'm okay with it because, you know,

despite your recent maneuverings, I've always been a big tent guy. And there was, I don't think it was entirely incorrect that the, like, COVID-era Toy Story 4 stuff did two things. One was Toy Story 4 in which Buzz Light Year is just like, have a good adventure, Woody. And that's that. And then they made that really bizarre Lightyear movie, which is a origin story, not to the toy. An origin story. About the character that the toy is based on, right? So it's in fact, it's an animated movie that suggests that this is the movie that the kid in the, that Andy, the fictional toy story kid, saw and then bought the toy from.

In which Tim Allen is voiced by, I think it's Chris Evans, does the voice of the real Buzz Light Year. Right. Not a terrible movie because it has a lot of like time loop stuff that's actually kind of relevant to some of the stuff that we cover. But anyway, this movie really rectifies that because Buzz Light Year is charming and funny and throughout the movie. And there's a runner of like a cargo vessel. Fans of the Wire Season 2 would call them cans has crashed or like fallen off a ship and 50 Buzz Lightyear toys like wake up. on an island and then they have to do something. And so there's a lot of Tim Allen.

Okay. Tim Allen playing 50 different parts? Plus the plus Buzzlight your prime. Do you think they were trying to get like some of that Deadpool juice where it's like. Oh, do you think Toy Story exists in the multiverse? Yeah. I wanted to mention to you that the burrows got canceled, which is sure that you'd been like, maybe we should talk about that.

I was like I did talk about that with Joe, but we could always hit it if you would like to. Was by all accounts and even Netflix's own public facing metrics, something of a success. I mean, it was in the top 10. I think it was, it may have peaked at number one, but it was definitely in their top 10 for a while. Sort of shockingly canceled.

Now, since then, there have been a bunch of pieces that have tried to explain the real reason behind Netflix cancer in the boroughs. It sounds like it was expensive. Yeah. It sounds like Netflix felt like the investment wasn't, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze in some way.

I don't really understand how it, costs $13 million an episode to make it. It's like a New Mexico set story with Alfred Molina and Alphrey Woodard and Bill Pullman and Gina Davis. And it's, I'm sure they make some money, but I don't know if they make $13 million an episode. We're going to tell me some, and there's, I know that there are aliens in it. Alphrey Woodard quote. She is, she, put that aliens out of this world. Keep going.

So the conventional wisdom is that this is somehow payback for the Duffer brothers leaving Netflix and going to Paramount. Plus, this comes on the heels of Paramount announcing an untitled Duffer Brothers movie, theatrical event coming in, I believe, 27, and that this is somehow Netflix clearing all the business off the books that they have with the Duffer Brothers, possibly. I don't see them wiping the slate of their stranger things IP, but I think that that's like an element of it. What did you make of this story? I think it just sort of starts and ends there.

I mean, I think that knowing the cost of genre television generally and knowing the way that Netflix will spend on shows, I think that if they canceled almost anything on their slate, maybe with the exception of free bert, it could be like, you guys have no idea how expensive this was. And you could claim that that's the reason. You don't, not, I mean, Netflix can do whatever it wants, but generally, if you have to, you have to, you have. a show that is critically working and, more importantly, is connecting with an audience. And beyond that, I feel like the whole log line, at least in terms of pitching it internally, was we'll do stranger things for olds. That's good business for them. So you don't cancel shows like that unless there are political machinations behind the scenes.

And I don't even mean it in a Machiavellian sense. I mean, fully, like, this was part of the Duffer Brothers' next big role building that they were doing as partners, long-time partners with Netflix, and then they left. Yeah. And so I would imagine all the people who worked really hard on the show felt quite nervous this whole year. Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that it sounded like they had gotten the writer's room together. It sounded like the cast options were up. This was, it's worth noting, not a Duffer Brothers created show.

It's created by Jeffrey Addis and Will Matthews and the Duffer's executive produced it. not unlike their relationship to something very bad is going to happen, which also I believe has been canceled or is not coming back. You can make the argument that that was a one-and-done show, but it certainly had like a doorway into future seasons. I've been fascinated recently just reading about The Town. And, you know, it seems like now every week we get a, is Hollywood going to turn into Detroit article,

like Detroit Automake article. I started to actually wonder like, A, obviously, like people are clicking on those stories, so that's why they keep writing them, but who's like, how can we keep manufacturing these? Like, at what point is there like nothing new to say about this whole storyline? Yeah.

And, you know, I think part of it was built around the mayoral election and the governor election, the campaigns for those offices here in California, and tax rebates and what they're doing, what various candidates are going to do for the movie industry is always up for debate or you know in the news. But I

started to become kind of cynical about it where I'm like who benefits from these stories? Often when I'm reading them and there's a lot of stuff about like you know these goddamn politicians just don't make it easy enough for us to shoot here or these labor unions here are just way too expensive so we have to shoot

in England. I'm like how come we're never talking about like why is why does the CEO of this company make $57 million a year. I mean, I don't know that, like, if David Zazlov got paid $5 a year, would they be able to, like, make shows affordably in this town? I don't know. I have no idea.

Like, it costs a lot of money to do stuff in America because there's lots of rules and there's lots of protections against, like, exploiting people for better, you know, I think for better. So I was about to do both sides. I noticed. I think you're doing a very delicate dance right now between populism and so. It's working. It's interesting that like we we get to this point where like say the boroughs where you're like, God, just can't make it work for the price point.

It's like you guys invented the price point. Yeah, you can do anything. I mean, this is actually, Chris, you are so close to like a foundational problem with capitalism and American capitalism particularly, which is both things. Both things are true. Like it is ruinous not to be able to film things here and we need to create incentives. and we need to create a structure where the business that more or less built this town can continue to exist. But the terms of how that business is done needs also to be examined. And we are existing in a moment, and this is certainly not just in Hollywood,

that CEOs of these companies believe that in order to have that position, they merit hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation. and that trickles down slightly, you know, among the executive offices. And that is just sacrosanct and that part of the business cannot be touched. Right. But whether we employ, you know, a lighting team or an in-house design team, well, that's all fungible. Sure, that can go. Right.

But God forbid we lose the stock options and bonuses. I'm totally open to hearing about what's difficult about shooting in L.A. aside from the cost. And I think that there's probably a lot of nuance to the story. I just was like, why do we keep getting these stories? and I was tying it to the Burroughs thing where it was just like it just seems like a lot of the economic models

since so much of it is tied to share price with these technology companies owning a lot of these platforms it's like no we have to keep this thing around 300 500 whatever my share price is it just winds up kind of getting away from like I don't really even know

how much money of these shows are supposed to be able to make we also don't know what the return on the investment is we don't really understand what's of value to them and how they monetize it especially with something like net It is so, at least to the layperson, it's totally opaque.

They could spend $10 million an episode of the boroughs, one million dollar an episode on the boroughs, $1, $100 million. I have no idea what that translates to in terms of international subscriber base. And it is, you know, the less cynical version of it is that the show, however successful it was, they have a number that says or a chart that shows it's not worth the spend in terms of what it's bringing in because the deep, deep, deep, deep, alfred Malina fans either already have Netflix or never signing up. Sure.

So the other thing, though, that I think is kind of intrinsic to Netflix's business. And I think this might be a conversation for our eventual crossover episode with the town because I don't really know the nuts and bolts of this. But a few years ago, Netflix, Netflix has a pattern of mimicking the old way of doing things up to a point when it no longer works for their model and then they move on. And what I mean by that is like when the House of Cards era, when they were like, we are going to... Out HBO, HBO. Exactly.

And plan a flag and win all the Emmys and show what we can do. And then you could also call that the Master of Nunn era. And then that gave way to the Floreslava era when they were just like, we're going to make whatever. And it's going to work for us because we are going to become all of TV, not just prestige TV. Five years ago, they got really, really, five, six years ago, they got really, really into the overall business. And they learned Shonda Rhymes. and they learned Ryan Murphy and Kenya Barris, and they created a whole new division

that was going to service these deals and get as much of these deals as he possibly can. Duffer Brothers were recipients of that largesse. Beniof and Weiss coming off of Game of Thrones were recipients of that. It seems that that shifted slightly. They still do give out rich overall deals. And Ryan Coogler, whose deal with Disney just got one, right?

Just got one. He's someone that they want to be in business with Sonny, who Lee Jungsen, who made beef and was a guest on our show. He has an overall deal coming off of the success of beef. Molly Metzler, who made maid and Sirens has an overall deal with them.

So they do make deals that make sense for them. But there's an element of the Duffer Brothers thing that strikes me as a more significant shift in the, we made you, you don't make us. Well, it's interesting too. Because it almost would benefit the Duffers to have kind of set up their theatrical business or sold this movie.

amount and then sign a Netflix deal because Netflix seems fairly kind about Ryan Murphy has plenty of things that are still on terrestrial television. I think Ryan Murphy is out of the deal and back to FX and Disney. I think you're right, but even while he was at Netflix, he was still working on all of the shows that he had. Right. And Gray's Anatomy is still on the year. Right.

So it's an interesting gambit from the network that promised the Queen's Gambit. How about that? Look at the way you did that. Flip button. Your silence is deafening this week. Great. Your silence is deafening on Amazon dumping Luca Guadino's artificial due to its AI, open AI partnership. Discuss?

I have a lot of feelings. Do you really? But I also, you know, I don't know if you know that, you know, I now have to buy cat food regularly. And the delivery options provided by the Prime Video's parent company are pretty good. So I don't want to imperil those. Yeah. What a Gordian knot we're all tied into these days, aren't we? Okay.

So let's talk me through this. This movie has been made, right? It is, I think, finished. And who's playing? Andrew Garfield plays Sam Altman. Okay. And it is about, I think, the earlier days of Open AI. Maybe when it was going from nonprofit to for-profit,

maybe when there had been some upheaval about whether Altman was going to stay in charge of it, I believe he was briefly relieved of his duties. He was. And then raced back in. And I can't remember who. Oh, Simon Rich wrote this movie. I started just laughing. You remember the news stories of that time when, like, New Yorker had the deeply sourced thing where people were like, the only person who should be in charge of the most disruptive and destructive technology in the history of mankind needs to be the most thoughtful, considerate, fair and balanced moral person.

And Sam Altman is the opposite of every one of these categories. And we're all like, oh, wow. And we turn the page and we're like, what did Hilton All's enjoy at the theater this week? It's going to be fine. Yeah. This reminded me a little bit of the story a long time ago on probably much lower scale in terms of like the, I mean, like, certainly the level of investment was when Apple had purchased a Gawker show. Oh, they wrote the show. And they were like, we're going to make a show about Gawker and we're going to tell the real story of like.

Yeah, Cord Jefferson was writing it. The outlawed journalism of the 2000s. And then it finally got to like Tim Cook and he was like, absolutely not. Like, what fuck were you guys thinking? Yes. There's a little bit of that to, of this. Like, it finally got to like, so what are you guys putting out in the movie theaters this year?

Let's huddle up. Funny you should say, we've got this crazy little piece of satire. And whoever at the top of Amazon was like, no. Which is an easy no. So it's now up for sale. And I think the sort of second leg of this story has been like, who's passing on it? Oh, who's been passing?

I think many people have passed. Many, many, many, many companies have passed. I appreciate the fact that you need cat food. Cat food and toilet paper, so sorry. I like going to the store personally. Do you? You support small businesses in your neighborhood? Like Target and CVS and all these mom and pops?

We've beat around the bush too long. I do want to say one thing. Yeah. It is not about Andy Burnham, though. I am. We're going to save that for After Dark. Oh, I can't wait. It is just that.

I think you and I were both caught slightly. off guard, not by the fact that the agency returned this weekend, a show that we both love. Oh, this is housekeeping, this is good. This is housekeeping, but that Paramount decided to just drop the entire season, which is just wild. So we were planning to dive into what we thought would be one or two episodes later this week, but now it's actually going to make a nice little binge suite on Thursday because all of the agency and all of the bear will be up. And we won't discuss all of them because we are but mortal men, but we will talk about the beginnings of both the seasons and maybe the larger.

Yeah. You know, it was funny, I was at this aforementioned Bat Mitzvah this weekend. And I had a conversation with another adult bat mitzvajgoer about the agency. He was like, you know, I just started watching that. And I was like, lucky for you. Yeah. A whole damn season just came out. The second season just dropped.

It was Ted Serendos, you could say. But the look in his face, it was actually Sam Waltman. It's like, I brought your cat food. We're all good. The look on his face was just so informative about, like, the moment we find ourselves in, which was at once a degree of like, oh, I'm glad it didn't get canceled or anything, but also like, shit. So now I have 18 hours of television to watch.

And I was like, well, at your leisure, you know, like, whatever next time you're on a flight. But the reverse of it is I've waited two years. to get the House of the Dragon episode that feels like it should have been the finale for season two. And there's no right way anymore except for the pit. It's just like... It's true. Yeah, there really is just no right way to do it.

It's the only one. So let's talk about House of the Dragon, which returned after two years off the air. It doesn't feel that way in some ways because the Game of Thrones content machine always spins and we had Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which we both adored. I talked about this episode of House of the Dragon,

and I will talk about the rest of them with Mal and Joe, and it's always a joy to talk about this whole, like, creative world with them because they're so knowledgeable and also so emotionally connected to so many characters and so many events. I also loved walking in the hallways here in the studio, the animal pelts, the candles that you use are lining. The set deck, everything about it. So I want to throw the ball to you and find out, you know, whether you came back to Westrose with any trepidation,

And I have opened up the door that we do not need to do this every week. I think you're at your best when you're happy about your work. Thanks, man. Do you think that was what they said to Kier-Starmer over the weekend? Listen, you don't lead with joy anymore. Yeah, we're going to see that guy fucking DJing at Prima Vera next year. And we're going to be like, man. He's going to be so happy.

We didn't know how good we had it. It'll be like the Fred again set and he brings out Mike Skinner, brings out Underworld and brings out Kirstarmer. And then the whole vibe just kind of shifts. I don't want to lead with faint praise, but this is genuine praise in that they've really figured out how to make this show. And the production values and the visual inventiveness and just the power of the images. And frankly, yes, praising the post and the vis effects of the water and the dragons

and the intensity of the performances are exceptional. Yeah. And I also appreciate, I feel like I need to come up with a word maybe in its native. of German to talk about the way that we've been talking about shows, which is talking about like the bones and the heart of them. The bones of the show, what Ryan Condal and his writing team have finally reached after, you know, I think even they would say like a challenging growth process is a storytelling rhythm that both works for the show and is very specific to the show. So you get a few of the back room scenes. You get the, you get, I mean, the, the, you get, I mean,

The way that they do exposition, where it's just like, I will introduce a character briefly, but he must have one interesting aspect of him, such as sniffing perfume as James Norgon does, or we'll give Corlis one minute to uncork an old, old bottle of whiskey called Live Forever. Yes. In order to, you know. But fighting for real estate isn't just something we do here in Los Angeles, Chris. It's something you got to do. It's not just something Sam Levinson believes in.

Truly, deeply. It's something that you have to do when you are adapting. something this big. So I appreciated the machinery of the show, and I think that, but I remain frustrated by things that I, you know, that I honestly am at peace with, and I, we can get to them. And I'm sure we will, because I think we should probably talk more about the larger sway of it. But I do want to say that hidden in this show and very much in this episode are two strands that I deeply believe are two of the most interesting stories that I have ever heard in the world Oh my gosh.

And it is glass half full, glass half empty, if you want to look at them as how great that we have them here. Or half empty in the sense of, man, I wish that the show was one of these things specifically and not just this larger. One is the Agonne and Laris Road Trip, which I both love for the performers, but also because those characters' arcs within this show have had a breadth of storytelling. movement that make them more compelling than Rainira, who basically is angry in this room and then angry in that room. That's no shade on the character or the actor. That's just the limitations of what the character has to do, much like Matt Smith spent all of last season talking to a magic tree. The Agon and Tom, what's, I'm going to get his name on. Glenn Carney. Tom Glencarnie, who is one of the best actors on the show. The idea of a spoiled princeling king who is brought

so low and then wandering in the world is a really cool. cool and interesting story for a show that places so much emphasis on the unusually the reverse trajectory of the guy Henry the fourth's rise exactly yeah so that alone would be an interesting TV show the other one and again I'm not speaking about how it's been executed on house the dragon because we haven't seen that much of it yet but the low born dragon rider storyline is such a sick story and I wish I'm sorry I promise I won't do this for an entire season I wish that was a show. I wish there was a show about more complicated,

more, frankly, to me, more interesting, but also more narratively flexible characters who are written in the history books becoming major players in a world. Do you think that specific take? And maybe both of them in some ways, because you know what, both of those ideas that you're talking about feel very naturally

like they could have happened in Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Yes, right. Like a group of low-born... That tone. guys who are bequeathed great power out of like this random you know birthright that they have or a sadistic prince who then is like castrated and defaced and is like left to wander the countryside with his kind of Richard the third uh you know compatriate like both of those things feel like they could be things that happened in the Ira Parker version of this

universe. I don't knock them for making the show about Reneira and Allison. I think that that is a powerful central relationship. But I do wonder,

you know, because this is such a strange adaptation. It's an adaptation of the Game of Thrones version of like Wikipedia kind of or like a history book. It's a history book. So I think that there's been

some embellishment and there's been obviously like I don't know that they have as much dialogue to work from. A lot of the scenes are like two people say this happened, but one person say it didn't, you know. But it's interesting that you're getting some light electric charges from like these side plots and not from this. What I think Condal and company would say is the central conflict.

Well, that's the thing. I think there's been growing pains, certainly for me, and maybe for some aspect of the audience, in the transition of Game of Thrones from a show, into a universe, into an IP universe. And we're not used to yet talking about Westrocy content the way we are with Star Wars content, where we can say Andor is one of the greatest television shows of our lifetime, and also Obi-Wan happened. You know, you can say that one is for you and one is maybe for other, and charitably, one is for other people, and that's fine.

They both can exist on the same streaming platform. we are maybe heading towards that faster than I realized. Like when I was watching this episode and I am admittedly not a deep, deep student of this game and I have not been rewatching it or like even remembering a great deal of it to be frank, this is not for me at this point. The amount of the amount of like factual depth that is required to follow the show and to be invested in a show where what's your name, Lotho. are the Lo Har, who is awesome and an awesome character, and I certainly remembered her, and I certainly remembered that performance. But her fury and animus towards Corlis is entirely a footnote

on the Wikipedia of the show. I am going to disrupt all of these plans and hunt down the one man who has been ruling the seas cruelly. Because he killed the crab feeder or whatever. So there is a, I'm not saying it wasn't on screen, but I'm saying the emotional drive for it. And it's played in the preemptive. performance, but that's not the storytelling I want to watch. And I think that the thing that I have

continued to struggle with, and then I do want to open it up, but I finally think I understood more of this episode, is that House of the Dragon is a limited series. And what I mean by that is it is in the same way, this is grandiose, but like Chernobyl was about a historical event with rich dramatization and good production values and direction, and it focused in and told us a story that had some narrative flexibility within some creation and what it chose to show us, but it couldn't change what happened in building six or whatever it was. Our reception of Chernobyl would have been quite different if it had been, instead of six episodes over six weeks, if it had been four seasons over six years.

Sure. I think that the relationship that I have and that maybe some people have with TV over time is that, well, we're going to live and grow with these characters and maybe be surprised by them. And the nature of the show is it's telling us a story. And I do think that I would feel differently about it if I was binging it three years from now in total, or if they had been able to, and this is not their fault,

shorten the production window. So you could understand that they're telling us a wild tale of some monstrous kings and queens and their dragons. Yeah, I think, obviously, I think because of the strikes in COVID or whatever, the sort of delay was, and then some budgetary concerns about season two. And whatever the reason was,

they were not able to end season two with what this first episode of season three was. Yes, which clearly was meant to be part of. And now I will get explicit about spoilers for this episode. And so obviously I can't imagine you're listening to us if you haven't watched this. But this episode ends with Jase Targaryen, Reneer's son, locking his mother in a room,

taking her place on a mission to go save the fleet against the triarchy and gets killed. He gets killed in the process. The image of his body sinking into the ocean would have been an incredible way to end that second season. And the dragon sinking. And I think it actually would have both put a bow on the second season and set up the third season in a really good way

because one of the things that's been sort of, I admittedly haven't really watched ahead, nor do I really plan to on this, but one of the things that's been interesting about reading the TV critics hit this show and they're largely very positive or at least saying like,

this is kind of echoing you and saying this is the best version of this show. Yeah, I would agree with that. Is that there's a lot of thematic stuff that I think is fairly obvious, I guess, in the show, but it doesn't feel earned sometimes for me. And that is, I've talked about this before,

but like, you know, there's a lot of stuff about what, war leaves behind in its wake, what would happen if these kinds of nuclear weapons were flying around in the skies and some of them were wild and untrainable, and some of them were being ridden by people who maybe had mixed loyalties or were only loyal to themselves? And, you know, the idea that these flights of fancy about who should sit in what is, I think one of the best sort of creations of the show is just how, like, lonely, uncomfortable. and undesirable the Iron Throne is.

I don't see it's not worth anything. But it's kind of great. Like it's like even, you know, the idea that like who wants to sit on this thing? Like who would want the responsibility? I do think that the flaw of the show is because it has so much heavy lifting to do with these families and with these sides of an argument or an argument of conflict. there's not as much 360 feel for the world of Westeros that makes you feel like

oh the guys on this battlefield or the person on that boat who just got burned alive mattered in this world like there is a little bit of inevitable you have to have red shirts you have to have people who are just going to be cannon fodder and so sometimes

I feel like the themes or the ideas of the show don't quite connect with me emotionally, if that makes sense. That's my major criticism of it. I think I'm pretty hot committed to watching them play this out. But I see a lot. Both of your sort of like, these are the things I like are both things that I like too. And they're on the show.

So I also think that the unquestionable success of Night of the Seven Kingdoms proves the, it's proof of concept of the argument that Casey Blois and his development team probably litigated intensely internally and then had to explain to the, you know, the revolving doors of corporate leadership they've had over the last few years, that we can be able stewards of this incredibly valuable franchise that we have because we can tell different shaded stories. And I think that the, I think part of the reaction to this new season of House of the Dragon is unquestionably, they know how to do a good version of the show now. And like Ryan Condal, but also Lonnie Perister, who got started on, not started, but did great work on

Banshee years ago, a show that I love, which has turned out to be like a real breeding ground, not just for talent like Jonathan Tropper, but Greg Yatanis, who directed on the show on Dragon as well, and he did an incredible job with it. The point being that House the Dragon was unfairly bearing the heavy weight of the crown as the only version of Game of Thrones, post-Game of Thrones. And now that they've proven that we can see a lighter version, a more humane version, a more whimsical version of the story at the same time, it feels like a more balanced presentation. What this episode specifically did,

I was watching with some amusement because if you, I wish we could be a fly on the wall of the conversations that Michael Lombardo and the previous regime of HBO were having when Game of Thrones premiered, and they were agonizing over the pilot, and they were agonizing over whether this is an even HBO show at all. And I imagine a lot of the direction was, oh my God, we got to tone down the dork shit to keep the boardwalk empire fans happy. We got to convince them. And really, they were

appealing to the, you know, the fucking Clark Kent version of the HBO fan like me. It was like, well, I don't know if this is worth my time. And so they downplayed a lot of the, I mean, they made reference to things, but there weren't dragons yet. Sure. And there wasn't this sense of like, you to watch the show, you need to understand, not just on an emotional level, but on a factual level, who represent what and where they're coming from, to the point where you introduce James Norton as a high tower. And I'm like, right, okay, let me just sort of dig deep and remember. And I do remember that there's the Allison and her father, who's now the chief designer on Star City. That's right. Resafing. But that it is now, this version of Game of Thrones is completely the version

that they were worried about 15 years ago, and there's room for it. They've earned that, and the fans that the hardcore, hardcore fans love it, and the people who aren't watching TV necessarily the way I am, but are like, to add to my diet, it would be nice to have a burn slab of mutton dropped on my lap every Sunday in Dragonfire, and here you go.

It is an excellently made thing that I feel fine about. You made a reference to the Star Wars universe a little while ago that this thing can't leave my head now where I kind of do wonder whether in some ways the Targaryens have become the Jedi's of Game of Friends. I love this. Go.

Cook. Both of those franchises refused to go past a certain point, right? Like after the sequels got rid of all of the legacy characters in some shape or form, you kind of end it. I honestly don't really remember how Rise of Skywalker ends, but

you know, we end Game of hear that somehow Palpatine returned? I do remember that part, but I just don't remember where various characters went off, like, did rain. You remember Chubacca lived. I sure fucking knew.

But we, you know, Game of Thrones, John's beyond the wall. What's going to happen next? And it's like, let's tell of that story. Well, it's not even that, but I'm just sort of like,

I don't remember who's king in that. Oh, what's his face? Brand the Broken. Who has a better story than that? Now I know that George has to finish these novels first before he tells us what that might happen next.

But I think it's interesting that the Game of Thrones TV world is, you know, looking backwards and using the text that George has provided. And in some ways, Star Wars is doing the same thing where it's like, let's use the established canon and continue to tell stories that are adjacent to the force with the exception of Andor. You know, let's tell stories that are about this like almost mystical religion that, you know, controls the universe. And for the Game of Thrones world, like the emphasis on the Targaryens in this show

is not unlike their emphasis on dragons because dragons were something that pop up in the first and last episode of the first season and are very selectively, you know, of Game of Thrones. Yeah. They're very selectively shown. Up until the very end.

Now, you could say that might be because of the technology or it might be because dragons had been, you know, extinct seemingly and De Niro's brought them back, kind of like Olivia Rodriguez bringing back Pinkerton, you know? That's after Dark 2 because I really, you got to drop this one on me. My point being is that they are making like the show about the thing that is not always like my, the thing I was most interested in. It is, it is not Game of Thrones fault.

It is not Star Wars fault that Hollywood, America, all of us are seemingly deeply afraid of peeking into the future and of telling something new and that the richest vein that we have found creatively to frack whatever resources we have left is multiversal storytelling you know and that will be a conversation for us through the end of the year um in the sense that even like marvel couldn't move the ball forward past its high point and is now going to try to basically restart itself by by um devouring its own history tale sure i think the other thing just a tonal thing and then Can we, then I do want to just go through a couple of the characters and plot points because I do want to hear your take on them. Your mileage as a TV viewer may differ. For me, I will always, always prefer the open-ended, holy shit, guys, where are we?

Storytelling of Lost, for example, in which it is entirely about the, like, the heady excitement of asking questions. Questions that the people who are creating the show don't necessarily know the answers for. They just know what they're interested in chasing and pursuing, and it might be a bumpy path along the way. There is a version of fandom that does not like uncertainty and wants resolution and wants to know, at least know that the creators know the answers and that they can also peek ahead maybe to preexisting texts or the internet to find out the answers to. And I think my ultimate ongoing and probably unending frustration with House of the Dragon is that it is a show about answers. It is a locked historical document that they're playing around in the margins in. But I, when I watch the show, feel the frustration of characters on tracks like... Rudner.

Yes, but also, like, metaphorically, like, rides at an amusement park. Sure. They're going to go through these motions to get to a place that they were destined to go. And the challenge, and it is a challenge for the creators, is to making the audience feel the weight of every decision that leads them to their ruin, but it is a much more locked and fixed document, which is why I go back to that idea that if it was, if they've been able to tell this story in like two super tight seasons or whatever that came out

closely together, I think we'd have a different relationship to it. And maybe the jokes on me because people like Mal and Joe are like, I can't wait to see this story that we know brought to life. In some ways it's a very ambitious show. In some ways, like their decision to do this entire sort of preamble of the two women when they were children. Yes. Their decision to really try to like show the political machinations behind the various rebellions is like pretty brave you know what i mean and and it's incredibly challenging yeah it's an incredibly challenge like let's talk a little bit about this first episode briefly like i just thought you know to my to my point about the targaryens as the jetties of i i didn't even really like get that much i was not scandalized by amon kissing

his mom i was kind of like that's just the targaryan way did you do the the ed runy i I feel like we should bring that gift back every time I talk about this show. That's how they do things in the family, yes. What were some of your favorite moments in the episode? Look, you know I love a naval battle. Master and Commander rewatchable. Did you think that that was decipherable?

I thought they did the, I think that's incredibly challenging. I mean, I could not, I was watching it just marveling over the work, the labor of storyboarding that and understanding it and then communicating it to us on multiple scales. There is the large scale of there are many boats here, and then there is the medium scale of there are boats here and here and also a dragon here.

And then it all crushes it possibly close when the boats are ramming into each other and people are boarding the boats and it's hand-to-hand combat. My favorite visual storytelling in it was the dragons touching the water and then being dragged into the water. And the feeling of something that is meant to fly, being weighed down was really beautifully communicated and incredibly gripping to watch. As always, I'm always like, but what about that guy? What does he think?

As he's getting roasted alive, you know, with an oar in his hand. But it was an action episode. And I do think that it was challenging that this was, as you said, most likely meant to be a conclusion and is instead a very rhythmically, tonely odd place to begin. Now, to go all the way back to my first comment, I love that Ryan Condal's instincts are to start small. Sure. To start with, oh, what's her name, chasing after what's his name, the big dragon that eats meat.

Raina. Sure. First of all, I just want to say in front of you and Kaya and all of our listeners, I've been wondering what was up with Raina for years. Literally two years. Two years. I've been like, that's a character that I've been tracking.

I know who she's related to and what she's doing. So it felt really good as a super fan to understand her relationship also to that dragon. If there was a couple, what were the things that you were like, I don't know what this is or who this is? Should we cover the show that way? Because do you remember when we did the after show for Game of Thrones on HBO and we had, which is still funny. We had a category called Who the Fuck Was That? Right.

Should we kind of broaden that category and bring it back from me just saying, what the fuck? Sure. Ask way. I feel like now I'm pretty well informed about it. I definitely did not remember who she was, why she was there, and what was up with the dragon that didn't have a saddle. I have no memory of that. I thought that she was going...

She had been sent out to the veil with, like, her brothers, I think. Yeah. And it's like, was pretty bummed because she hadn't claimed a dragon yet. Believe Amund took her dragon. Or took the, to, like, jumped on Vagar and was like, that's my dragon now. That's my guy. Yeah. I remember that.

And yeah, and the lady Jane of the veil was kind of like, you can like get, you can walk through here, but keep walking. Like, I don't want you to stay here. Right. And I think she breaks off from her party at the end of season two and finds a wild dragon. Sheep Steeler, I want to say. I feel like that's a, he's giving sheepstealer, not moon dancer. I'm just saying, like, this is the part of the.

George R. Martin verse that they didn't show to Plipler in New York, in the HBO office in 2012. Because if they had walked in and they were like, we got moon dancer, we got sheepstealer, we have the Battle of the Gullet. He would have been like, first of all, he would have been like, boy, the age of the expense lunch in New York will never end. I love it here at the four seasons. I'm sure that'll stay unchanged. But you know what I mean? Like, this is deep Lord God. I'm just trying to help you out.

I appreciate it. I thought that the Battle of the Gullet was cool. Raina getting involved. Probably the wrong move. Yeah, that seems that way. It seems that way. I appreciate it. Like, again, as a kind of a noob to this, like,

I like the sheep stealer was like, what are we doing? Are we burning folks? I only do two things. Steal sheep and light guys on fire. And I'm all that sheep. You know what I mean? Like, I appreciated that.

Because I have forever been a little bit, I've forever struggled with the fact that the dragons are like wild, ferocious, mythical carnivorous beasts. But if you whisper made up Latin in their ears, they're suddenly like tactical howitzers. The one that I did not know that I would have done who the fuck is that. And I did do that on Talk the Thrones was the Stark, who is the dude who threw the head to Damon? Yeah, I had no idea who that was. And apparently we knew who that head was. That's the Lanister twin. one twin was on the boat

One twin was in Bad day to be a Lannister Yeah We'd met the I mean I remember the one on the boat I enjoyed him RIP Sure yeah

But the one whose head we saw Had a speaking part On the show last year I want to say yes Do you think the actor Got his episodic fee For his latex head Being thrown to Matt Smith

That's a great question In this day and age Of Hollywood cost cutting I can't say I imagine we'll be hearing From Casey at HBO After this segment And I wonder if you could just

weigh in specifically on that. I think he's going to be like, just wanted to let you guys know I'm never listening. You're done. You're cut off. Anything else you want to do you hit on Dragon? I guess where do you stand? Is this going to be a weekly watch for you?

You tell me, Doug. I live to serve. I just, I definitely don't want to, and nor do our listeners. I don't want to keep circling the same thing. I think that there's like, when it's euphoria,

uh, there's something perversely, like, fun about like watching you lose your mind, but also be like, I can't look away. With this, it's like,

you've done your, time, man. And I think that you will continue to join us for Night of the Seven Kingdom Season 2 and all these things. I just don't, I just don't think TV should be a homework assignment. We'll keep them guessing. Let's go to Star City again.

We can just hit this relatively quickly, although I will echo my sentiments from last week. If you were watching television and you are not watching this show, you are not watching the best show on television. To me, it is my favorite thing that's on currently, obviously what is Bay just concluded. And you haven't watched season two of Sugar yet.

I have. I mean, I assume. Did you fire up the first episode? It's up. It is up. I've not fired it up. Okay. I read with like real affection,

Mike Hale's review of it in New York Times where he's like, isn't it great to have the show back? Every once in a while, you just like, I read with real affection, Mike Hales. His review of it, I was like, man, maybe we are too cooked here. Because he was just like, Colin Farrell's back as a detective in L.A. and it's classy and it's fun to watch. And there was a fun twist in season one.

And I was like, man, maybe I got to chill out. You know? For sugar. Not for dragons, though. No, I'm right about that. Anyway, I continue to, I will sing Star City's praises from the mountaintops. This was the fifth episode. It was called Bite Your Elbow.

And it is, I would probably say, like, the culmination of some of the espionage mole hunt storylines of the first. part of this season. And, you know, I I guess I wanted to hit how, I don't want to keep saying the same thing about these shows, but what it does is play hits in a way that sounds really good to me.

Multiple scenes in this episode. I'm like, I've seen this before. I have seen the mole get told by his significant other or someone very close to him that everybody is on to that. And it's time to run. And yet I thought the Valia Tanya's scene outside of the training center was fucking incredible. Now, like, is it goofy how Valia like kidnaps a guy and gets himself onto this space rocket launch? Yeah.

For sure. Well, I push back on that. The shows create their own narrative reality. And as soon as Star City puts in play that whoever gets on to this secret mission inside of a bathysphere will be gone for nine months and thus, protected from the environments at home and abroad, I knew where the episode was going. The question was how... Yes. The question is how is it going to get there? And I agree with you completely about the familiarity of some of the storytelling. What's delightful is the way that it's deployed.

For example, I did not know that this episode would begin one second after the revelation at the previous episode. I did not know that the moment in which Arena holds all all the information and Valia and Tanya and everyone else do not, many shows would have milked one, two or three episodes out of that and seen how that plays out. This Star City chose to do the opposite. Yeah. And here's the name I'm going to throw out for you. And it might not be familiar if it's not written in Cyrillic.

Zach Wheeler. From the— Zach Wheeler is a—yes. And Chris, what I often hear when veteran Zach Wheeler takes the hill is that there's a difference between throwing and pitching. And you can throw, like your boy that you saw, Milwaukee, Mizorowski, who... He was fucking pitching, man.

Okay, that's fair. But that dude could throw 104 mile per hour anytime he wants. Zach Wheeler not only has lost a few MPH on his fastball, he's also lost a rib to thoracic outlet syndrome and is still painting the corners because he knows what to do with it. And I think part of the joy of watching Star City is seeing how this creative team is, is pitching.

Yeah. And is keeping us on our toes and surprising us with timing and placement. And more than anything else, as they also say in the non-moneyball versions of baseball, like kids got good stuff. It really does. The scene between Irna and Tanya

and the beginning of the episode, the scene where Irina gets, Arita gets caught by her annoying coworker and then flips it on her. all the stuff with Sasha and Anastasio is quite lovely. These are all scenes that I feel like, you know, I've been kind of echoed throughout time and history. I did want to ask you about one of the last moments of the episode.

Did you recognize who's in the photo that Tanya grabs there? Was that Brezhnev? Yeah. Is that my guy Leonid? Is he the father? Yeah. Yeah, we're playing. Yeah, this is crazy. I mean, it's not crazy. It's just it's it that was do you think Russian premiere? Yeah. Do you think Apple

the network executives were like could we just get an ADR of her going my God that's Leonardo that's somehow president was returned? Yeah, I love that. I also want to shout out just again in the spirit of it's like it's really how you deploy the story that you have the direction of the show is beautiful. This is Cassia Adomik directed this. I'm not familiar with her, but you know as part of my fully tongue-in-cheek now Nepa watch. She is Agneska Holland's daughter. I have to say, the great Polish director. She directed the shit out of this,

and it's like largely handheld. There's a shot. Here's my pure cinema award of the day. But there's the moment when Arena is deleting the tapes that have her saying that she's going to help Tanya escape, and she has this whole plan to get her a day pass and everything. And her office, mate, I guess not mate, like not friend at all, played by who's Yegorovka is her name,

played by Elliot Salt. She, she's watching. But the way that the way that the camera notifies us of this is it tracks, and this is like the long secretarial pool, essentially of Building 12, Arena leaves, and then the camera stays, and then it slowly tracks back up to see who did or didn't notice her leave. Yes. And it is such a beautiful, natural example of visual storytelling of a pan. paranoid state. But even in that case, it's like, yeah, if she's done this once, she's not

going to get away with it the second time. But like the fact that she built a file on Valia, that she was willing to sacrifice Valia for Tanya's escape. Why is she so enamored with Tanya? Is she have romantic feelings for her? Is it just infatuation with her free spirit? What is it that we're going to find out about her? But it's an exciting moment because I don't, for as much as I'm like, well, I've seen that before and I've seen that before, but it's done very well. I don't remember a moment where a American mole is in a spaceship that's not really a spaceship with two new Russian one Russian cosmonaut and then a woman who's never been in space before and they're going to be up in space for nine months.

The chief designer is okay with part of that plan but does not know that's an American mole. Then Irina knows like everything but is only telling her superior some of it. Just a lot of moving pieces, and it's a very exciting setup for the second half of the season. And all of this is in service of a plot line that involves sending people to Venus, which did not know was a cool goal to have. Have done a little light Googling. Does not seem particularly hospitable to human life. We can't say, though. No, I think we can definitively say.

We can't say because we haven't been, right? Oh, I don't think it's the same as me being like, I've heard Southern Italy is nice, but hot. Yeah. I've yet to prove it. I mean, there is the line when the dude's like, I shall be the one to plant the Soviet flag. And they're like, you would explode. Your body would explode in flames. It is a, I mean, what is the most off book thing that you've ever done when in the employ of someone else?

because whatever it is, I don't think it equals sending three cosmonauts to fucking Venus at the expense of like three billion rubles. Because the point is they're launching this vessel. And then at some point in the nine months, chief designer is going to say to old Leonid or his close. He's going to say, like I had a secret mission to Venus that I had to do so secretly because the Americans were surrounding us and starting to get information about Star City. So to take this great next leap for the Soviet space program, I alone did this. Don't blame anybody else. And then what's going to happen when they find out actually an American spy is on that ship?

What is the equivalent movie that you and I would do for the rewatchables in a pirate recording and then put up when Bill is on vacation? I mean, we did it with kicking and screaming. I'm well aware, but I'm just like that was a sanctioned mission. Yes. Is there something that you and I would, I mean, Would it just be born legacy? Like, what is the most?

Yeah, it would probably be born legacy at this point. Or what if it was like, can you imagine doing the rewatchables categories on the early filmography of Hell Hartley? Honestly, from Hell Month, we're not that far away. From Hal Month? Wow. You do your best work at the end of the podcast. Do you want to talk about England having its, the Night Kingdom having its sixth prime minister in seven years or seven?

Seventh in ten years? What was our other after dark segment that we were going to? do? Oh, Olivia Rodriguez. Like in Pinkerton. Do you explain that to me? Well, I guess she did an interview with Anthony Fantano and people were like, music journalism is dead because she... Look at us, we agree. I mean, she's done lots of interviews.

I don't know really what the problem is, but... Is this a written interview or a... Video interview where she's just like, I love Pinkerton and he was like, oh, you're a Pinkerton fan. And people are like, this is... Is Pinkerton still cancelled? So this is for those who are still listening. Why was Pinkerton canceled? Because it was about...

It's a... Creeper record. So Weezer. But I think he knows that, right? Yeah. But I, but so what I don't understand is this scandal that she's, that the fans are like Olivia by publicly, um, sanctioning and supporting Rivers Cuomo's 30 year old creepy raincoat lust for young Asian women in record form. You have thus perpetuated the patriarchy. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's like, for me, it just sounds really good. The record? Yeah. It's a fucking good, I'm sorry. Am I not allowed to say that it's a good record?

It sounds really good. It's set. Listen, Kai, look at the politics. You can't comment on the content of the man's character. Tired of sex. Not me. Could be me, dog. I think it's just interesting because Weezer is not inexplicably, like much like the I Love It I Don't Care song, Weezer is 2015.

Isn't there some song on that record where it's like, you come from Japan? Like, isn't it? It's kind of like... That's all the songs, my guy. Yes. But much like that I don't care, I love it song, Weezer's otherwise unremarkable 2015 or 2016 duet with Bethany from Best Coast, the song Go Away.

Uh-huh. It's like what happened with pavement with, you know, a random, relatively random song suddenly gets resurfaced. Oh, yeah. When harness your hopes. Harness your hopes, yeah. So go away. So that was...

It is a huge TikTok song. It is on my daughter's, like, core playlist. Okay. And they're savvy enough that on their new record, they have a very, very similar duet with Carly, right? With Carly from Wednesday. Yeah. And I, of course, I am just fucking...

Every cartoon character with a yardful of rakes. You were like, actually... You know, there's a series of song that's not too dissimilar, and Carly's pretty cool. She's got some tattoos. And maybe we could listen to this. Dead zone. Yeah.

Uninterested. But my point being is the danger that somehow this is going to relitigate the WeasorWisor's like we're not getting out of this car until you respect late period Rivers Quos song. Listen, I'm going to say something at this end of the podcast that I think is just between us, just between us mice here. Yeah. And Kai. Kaya's Red In.

Yeah. Kaya's Omerta. My older daughter is not in the car. Younger daughter is like, that vampire weekend song is pretty good. Oh, wow. So some like, every spring, fresh buds bloom. You know what I mean? And then just like one single tear roll down your eye.

You're like, no, it's just allergies. Thank you. That would be the best case. The worst case is, oh, what's on my phone? My 2007 Spin Magazine cover story on Vampire Weekend titled The Graduates. I'll just leave this here in the back seat. Just playing Roblox. It's fine.

It's like, I don't know how to read. Where's the video interview of this? Yeah. I just want to say my favorite show other than Star City is British politics. Me too. I don't really understand how you guys keep doing this.

I think it's cool that you're never satisfied. You're always chasing perfection. By the way, happy 10 year anniversary to Brexit. That's right. But Burnham is the king of the north, right? And he is you form a Manchester mayor and he's riding south to join parliament. And Kirstormor has stepped down today.

To clear the field. And is going to be essentially handing over the reins to him. Now, then Burnham has, what, two more years to run? Yes, before there's a general election, I believe, unless they call it. Do they do it every four or five years there? I don't understand. I don't understand. I think we're thrown because you can replace them midstream and you can call in early election.

But like if the guardian writes enough negative articles about you, you'd just be like, I guess I have to stop. I have to stop being here. Should we, Kai, do you want to just patch in Mickey and Conrad and see if they want to weigh in on this? No, I know. I just, I think it's, it's fascinating, but... Can I say my favorite Andy Burnham fact? Of course. The King of the North coming down.

First of all, it is so sick that you can be like, everyone has been a, like, everyone in the Starmerverse has been so afraid of this happening. Yeah. And in order for it to happen, Andy Burnham had to like basically run to be the representative of Montgomery County. Yeah. You know, and just be like, guess I'll just rejoin Parliament for no reason. And then wins a parliament seat last week. And then gets on the Manchester.

to London train. Yes. Wearing a just like casual t-shirt, gets off the train wearing a crisp suit. Like he stepped into a phone booth. But my favorite detail, Chris, was that the train goes into Euston Station, which is where I was commuting a lot last fall.

That was your local? Look, I think it's okay, even as an American to say that London has some, first of all, the trains, they criticize the trains compared to what we live with here. They're a lot to, yeah. That's fine. Yeah.

The train stations, many of them are very beautiful. And even the ones that aren't necessarily gorgeous, like Paddington are like incredibly efficient. Liverpool Street, bustling, getting it done. Houston is the ass end of the universe. Houston is Penn Station 20 years ago. Everybody looking at the board,

and then when the board's like, this is with track, it's on 100,000 people run. Yes. And the soon-to-be prime minister is swanning through that mess, hopefully stopping off for like a Wendy's Good Morning, on the way. Bit of a Greg's.

Greg's man, you know. He would win. Yeah. See, look at the keen sense. I should get on his team. You should get on the team. Yeah. I feel like there's a lot of people

jumping on now. Where were they last week? You're like Agon. Crossing sides. I won't bet my knee, but I'll go over there. It was great talking to you today. This is fun.

We'll be back on Thursday with the first few episodes of the Bears. So the bear drops on Wednesday night, Thursday night? In any case, we're going to do the first three episodes of the bear, maybe like a couple episodes of the agency, but we're going to talk about the choices people make to put entire seasons of television up in one night.

And fine dining. Yeah, right? Thank you to Kai. I thank you to Kai. We will be back on Thursday. I hope everybody had a great weekend. We'll see you soon. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair.

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