The Watch - 'House of the Dragon' Is Playing All of the Hits

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

Chris and Andy break down the premier episode of the 'Game of Thrones' spinoff 'House of the Dragon.' They talk about how the show is using elements of 'Game of Thrones' to draw audiences in (1:00), the major plot points in the episode (21:55), and Matt Smith as Daemon Targaryen (33:19). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's The Song of Bison Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson. I've read every book in George R. Martins, The Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spin-off series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your question, so send us a raven at trial by content at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the trial by content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The reins of Castamere hasn't even been written yet. You know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew,

the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, the boy in the belly. It's Andy Greenwald. It's dark. It's all dark. This is like our going to be our most listened to podcast of Fiscal 22. And we're starting with that. I mean, what was like in House of the Dragon, Ep I season one? Yeah.

Did you find any like light notes that you'd like me to like memeify as your intro? I like it. I like it when the doomed queen is like you reek of dragon. Okay. He reeks of Dragon. It's Andy Greenwald. I'm Chris Ryan. It's House of the Dragon. We're recapping this tonight. As a programming note, I'm also hosting Talk the Thrones with Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson. That is going to be much more of a deep dive into the granular aspects of Westrose. Those two geniuses telling me what I don't understand about Targary and family business, etc. Andy and I are obviously old hands when it comes to talking about the Martinverse. By the way, I am honored to be the Katie Lee Joel of Talk the Thrones, for people who don't know, she was the first season host of Top Chef. And she's on food network?

I think so, but she was replaced by Padma and nobody talks about her season. So that was me. That's me with Talk to Thrones. And I love it. I love it. The seat is warm. It's always yours if you want it. The Iron Throne is warm.

Yeah, we've been doing this for a minute and now we're back. Yeah, and I wanted to ask you to start off with. So we were lucky enough to see this episode a little while ago. And then obviously checked it out with everybody who just saw it tonight. We'll be talking about spoilers for this episode, but because Andy and I are, again, not big bookheads. I mean, we read just not Game of Thrones-related material. We have no idea where this thing is going or what's going to happen.

I think, obviously, you can pick up radio waves out there. Is this the time I can promote my new podcast that's just about Rachel Cusk's outline trilogy? I read the books. Are you going to torpedo at this fine? Yes. Yes, I am. But not because you don't like the show,

you like the show. Not only that, I like the show, I'm excited to talk about the show, and I also just think, to be clear, not only have we not read, as usual, the supplemental materials

the Georgia R. Martin, original sacred texts. Unlike some of the reviews that I have noticed are starting to float out there, we have not watched past this premiere. Like, I think we really enjoy

going week to week on a show like this. And so today's podcast is absolutely we are in sync with the viewers. We have not watched more than you have.

Yes. And so I wanted to ask you to start with. So we got a chance to see this. And not for nothing, but we saw it on a bigger screen. We saw it on a big screen.

And then we watched it on like the regular televisions. I was wondering if we could start with, did you feel like the story, the episode specifically, that the episode fit the screen, both in terms of what you were expecting, but also what obviously

HBO is hoping. for what I think lots of people out there who are like, man, I'd love like just swords and shields and dragons and guys and ladies working it all out in court. I guess that would be She-Hulk. But, you know, like, you know, I'm still too tender. What did you think of the episode in terms of your expectations for it? Well, I think that's a great place to start because expectations are kind of the name of this game, not Game of Thrones.

a lot, perhaps too much of our conversation about TV over the last year, two years, three years, is about where the industry is, which is trying to triangulate an almost impossible balance between audience expectation, corporate ambition, and then creativity, right? Like trying to please all three quadrants. And there aren't three quadrants, by the way. I did take math years ago. Three points on the triangle. Shout out of the Philadelphia school system.

Yeah, they did great. They did great. And I keep finding the products wanting because of that. Like, it's just too many different masters to serve in order to make something that ultimately is entertaining. And so I have to say my first feeling in watching this show wasn't that I'm just relieved that I'm done having children, but that broadly speaking, they pulled it.

off to a degree that really, really impresses me. Now, is the goal to impress? Is the goal to be respected or to be admired for what you've done from a structural IP point of view? I'm not sure, but that is part of it, because I am not necessarily representative of the audience and that I think that there's a large swath of the TV viewing audience who's like, I loved having Game of Thrones on my screen. I just want more. I said this to you when we were sitting down to watch it the first time. I don't know if I want to go back to Estrus. You know? Like, I, I I felt we spent a lot of time there. Yeah.

And we had some highs and we had some high highs and some low lows. And I don't have the yearning necessarily for that sort of storytelling that even in my snarkiest pits of jaded despair, I like superhero stuff. It just kind of speaks to me and like, you know, and I can still get around to the idea of it. So I went into this being like, I think I'm good. And I left it feeling the first viewing and the second viewing really, really heartened and impressed that the show not just made a case for a return to Westrose, but a case for itself as a TV series going forward. That is a really high bar. And I think that the show, I don't know if

it sailed over it on the back of a beautiful scaled dragon, but I think it cleared the bar. You know, I respected it and I enjoyed it. And I have to say, I don't know if I was, I didn't think, I wasn't predicting that going in. I wasn't predicting it. You know, what I like the most about this episode, and I guess the series so far is obviously, I just feel like it's steering into the skid. It's not running from what it is, both in terms of Miguel Sepachic

coming back and directing and being the sort of producing director of the series, it looks like Game of Thrones. There are obviously some differences, but it aesthetically feels similar to Game of Thrones, probably the peak of Game of Thrones in a lot of ways, that middle run, you know. And I also felt

Like, they're not dumb, man. They mention DeNaris Targaryen in the title card. They have the music playing over the first sort of succession announcement that they have. Like, they are like, guess what? It's not just the music. I don't want to jump on you, but I just want to say, like, I couldn't get over how subtle and ultimately brilliant that is, that you have Ramin Jawadi's music playing

and its original music written for the show. But in that opening shot of the dragon flying high over the Red Keep, or boy, I'm going to get this stuff wrong with that. Mallory and Jason here. But the music is playing an original piece, but in the background, at a slightly different key, is that, and it's there. And it's doing the job that the show is also doing. It's reminding you.

It's connecting you while it's suggesting something new. I mean, that is incredibly high degree of difficulty. And it gets you right into it. The Dragons is another thing. You know what I mean? I think that most shows working within, like, this connected IP style of storytelling, I think hold the viewer at arm's distance

for as long as possible before they give them the serotonin hit of... And you remember this character, they're back. And you and I have sort of started to joke around about some of the people that show up in Marvel and Star Wars stuff where we're like, oh, that guy who was also at Moss Isley, we're supposed to have like a day off

to celebrate his return to the show. Okay? No idea. When it comes to Thrones, I felt like almost more like the way I felt like when I watched like the Rogue One trailer. And I was, you saw like the Destroyer Crossing like the shadow of the Death Star. And I was like, oh, it turns out I in fact do respond to this material quite strongly. And I felt that way watching the dragon flying over Kings Landing.

I felt that way seeing like a royal court assembled. I felt that way when I saw the Iron Throne. And then you mix in the fact that they. I wouldn't want to say didn't take any chances because I think that there are some big swings with the casting, but they really cast it smart. They got very dependable.

I saw in the Guardian review of the show that everyone who wasn't on the previous Game of Thrones or currently on the Crown is in this show. Yes. And it's like, yeah, well, you draft from a Power 5 school. You know what I mean? Get the real blue chip people in here to do this kind of dialogue

and make it seem convincing. And Patty Constantine and Eve, and, you know, Steve Toussaint, like, they've got really, really good performers because that's what the first series had. They had these, the Charles dances, the Peter Dinklitches there to make this shit seem believable. Well, let's run it, let's run the tape back a little bit and think about the fact that Game of Thrones was such a phenomenon that bridged two eras of television so profoundly because when it started, there was a lot of conversation about, okay, this is an HBO show. This is how HBO will engage with the.

rising genre subculture, right? It is essentially a dynamic power struggle family show with swears and nudity, but also dragons, right? Eventually. By the end of the show's run, it was emblematic of what all culture had become, you know, a sort of global monolithic indulgence that people were totally obsessed with. And it eclipsed HBO programming. I mean, HBO couldn't, has succession, you know, probably the best show on TV and certainly recognized as such by people who were in the know and by the Emmys and things like that. But like, it's not even in the same, it's not playing the same sport in terms of what Game of Thrones meant to people around the world. So the necessity, I don't know if it's a necessity, but like HBO needed to keep this going. And whether AT&T was in charge or Discovery is now in charge, like they had a live one here.

You know, they had, and we're sitting on what all these companies require. And so the conversations that went on in the executive suites must have been fascinating because despite having all of those seasons and all those episodes and hours of Game of Thrones, they had to have a foundational conversation about, well, wait, what is this? What is this for us as not the show that David Benioff and Dan Weiss made? What is this as a giant overarching piece of IP that is going to help define us and define our success for the next few decades? And I think it's instructive. Again, we haven't seen, and probably I think we'll never see the busted pilot that they made for a show that starred Naomi Watts.

The long night. The long night. It was called Blood Moon. It was the filming title. Unclear. But from everything we've heard about it, and I think you and I have both seen parts of the script or the scripts and have heard. and have heard, talk to people who have seen it. It was a pretty radical.

I've seen the All 22, the coaches tape. You know, just like the over, yeah. You drove to the link at like 4 in the morning with all the other offensive line coaches and just crunch tape, saw it all. Crush bloodline tape. I think the takeaway was that it was, again, I don't know if this is representative of arrogance or just HBO's earned confidence that they were like, we're HBO. So we don't need to clone something.

We can reinvent, we can iterate. We can say Game of Thrones is this now and do something radically different and get both the audience that we had earned over time and the respect that we always get for trying new things. And apparently it didn't work. And so there was a retrenchment. And I, you know, again, this is not me speaking as like a creatively minded person. This is me speaking as someone trying to like think about the business of it. And you kind of have to play the hits to a degree. degree, right? You have to give something, especially if it's going to be the first, and there are

many other shows. I don't know if there are many. There are a number of other potential shows and spinoffs in development that I'm sure we'll talk about as we cover the show over the next few weeks. They needed something that felt kind of familiar. Maybe regressive. Like, not regressive in its worldview, but it's funny you should bring this up because I wanted to ask you about this. I think one of the things that we keep coming back to when we talk about a lot of these IP shows is well, you know, it's the sandbox. And like, what it really is is a test of the filmmakers or the writers to see how far you can push things and like what you can do within this, within this particular sandbox. Can you make in the case of Shehulk like a legal drama? Can you make or a legal dromedy and can you make a psychedelic, you know, meditation on loneliness for Loki and can you do this or that? And then you have the more like you get sometimes you get people who get into the sandbox and you. you're like, you know what's good? Sand.

And they make the Mandalorian. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like, you get people who are basically going back to the text. And I think aside from George R. Martin's relationship to this series, which is apparently much more present than it was at the end of Game of Thrones, I think Ryan Condole and Miguel Subhachnik are like, what is it that people like about Game of Thrones? And I will admit, while watching this show for the first time, there was a point at which I was like, boy, they're keeping it tight.

Like, boy, this is like a slightly poker face show. And I almost wonder whether we're watching something where no one wants to fuck up. You know, no one wants to be the, no one scene wants to be the scene that's like, this is different. And the thing that I actually responded to, and I, you know, it's very hard on podcast to describe physical, just gestures. But if people would remember the meme of Bill Simmons doing draft night coverage, the night the Celtics drafted James Young.

and he just gives that little fist pump. I gave the same fist pump when Matt Smith called Recyphins a cunt. Because I was like, good, let's go. Let's have some fun. Let's let Matt Smith cook a little bit. This guy's going to start throwing around the C word.

You know, like it felt like that was when the episode for me and a lot happens before that. But that's where the episode started to feel like a little bit like we're levitating a little. I agree. I think that a lot of attention is going to be right, paid to the fact that Miguel Sopachnik, who is, you know, I think respected and if not adored by Game of Thrones fans for his direction of some of the biggest, most memorable action set piece

episodes, knows how to make Game of Thrones. He knows how to, in other people involved in the show, they know how to physically produce a program that codes and presents as Game of Thrones. The, and I think we'll probably return to it, but the King's Tournament, the jousting scene is as visceral as anything on the original series, and you are just back in it. You're like, this is a world that we've been watching versions of for as long as we've been alive and, you know, even longer. If you saw Camelot on Broadway, you recognize people not using contractions and wearing armor.

But this version of it is purely Game of Thrones. And that's josting before the NBA put hand-checking rules in. You know, that's a hundred percent is how we grew up. It's bully ball. It's NBA. It's 90s Pat Riley-Nicks. I think to me the thing that I walked away, and I don't know, I find it interesting whenever our language is more like respectful, but I do think this is hard.

This is hard to do. And before we get into the specifics of the plot and character, I was just cheered to realize that everyone involved seems to understand on a very granular level. In the same way that we used to talk about Kevin Feigey knew Marvel characters and could reduce them to a log line that would translate around the world, even if you had never heard the name Tony Stark before Robert Downey Jr. suited up. They seem to understand that what Game of Thrones has in its pocket that these other contenders and potentially pretenders don't have, not just for the Iron Throne, but for the belt of like this is what fantasy or genre storytelling

should be on the streaming prestige era of television. They understand that they have access to the best actors and best cast and they let them go. And you've already mentioned Patty Constantine, and you mentioned Matt Smith, and it goes up and down the call sheet. Like, these are big-time talents, and they're exciting to watch, and they elevate the material. But the other one, and I had kind of forgotten this. I'd gotten away from it, both because it's been a couple years since the finale and even more years since stuff like the Red Wedding. Game of Thrones is gnarly as fuck. Like, it is, and it always has been.

And that's what got attention. Now, does that mean it's shocking or gratuitous? I don't, sometimes maybe. that's not the argument I'm trying to make now. I'm just saying they remember that. And so they have staged in the middle of this episode a birthing scene that I will never watch again. Congratulations.

It's excruciating. And it's intentionally excruciating. Yes. And, you know, we can, I think it would be interesting, again, when we get to have creative conversations with people involved in the show, how many different cuts, I promise, no pun intended, were made of that scene.

how far to push it, how much to show, what they were communicating. But yeah, even the choice to juxtapose it with the sort of masculine brutality of the jousting scenes and like what, you know, the battlefield of the womb is obviously like a sort of bullet point for this episode. It's mentioned a couple of times within it. And who better to litigate that idea than two guys named Ryan Miguel and then later Andy and Chris. Yes. We are going to mansplain.

Look, I finished this as going to hurt. Oh, yeah, you're way ahead of me. But you know what I mean? Like that, like this is a Game of Thrones show. And I, you know, we haven't talked to Casey at HBO or anybody about this. But my feeling is even though, and I haven't been doing this recently, but I did like scan the early notices and reviews. And they haven't been uniformly positive.

But my guess is what HBO wanted the consensus to be was, oh, I've got a Game of Thrones show back. They'll have time to prove whether it's worthwhile or if it's, better or if it's just as good, whatever. They wanted to reestablish a baseline. And just by that metric, they're good. They did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a calming. It was, it was weird to describe it as calming, but that's what it was for me. It was like, oh, they know what they're doing. Like, this will get really interesting. We can go through bits of the episode here. I have a couple of things written down that I wanted to chat with you about. You know that I love it when

you write things down for a podcast, because that means 50% of us have written something down for the podcast. What are we talking about in that early scene with when Viceris is named King, right? Over, I guess, his cousin, Nira. What's up with election integrity in Westeros back then? So we're just getting that in a scroll and that's in a box? Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, that is a Dominion scroll.

You know what I mean? And so I don't know whose hands touched that scroll before. You know there's a lawyer at Dominion right now being like, what? I know, we're going to get a cease and desist. They are suing you for a billion dollars. But on the plus side, Chris remembered the time you were doing the draft and fist pumped. So it's, you know, win-lose. Yeah, again, like, this is so funny.

We can talk about it in two ways. You pointed out already that the show begins with, you know. Did I already screw up Renier and Rainis? I'm sure you did. I think I just did. Rainis is the cousin of Viseris. It's Rainis? And to Harris.

Yeah. Okay. Is it? Oh, Rainis. Yeah, sure. I remember her. Yeah, she's the cousin. She's the queen who never was, right?

Yes. Yeah. I liked her. I, I, what if I was just like, I love her? What if I just went all in on Queen Rainus after one hour? Like, what if I did a draft fist pump? And I was just like, she's the face of my franchise. if I was doing an early Targaryian draft.

I feel like that would be a successful podcast. Yeah, that would be a very Vivek-esque pick by you. I think it would be a real like Stauscus, huh? Okay. No, no, she's Marvin Bagley. Like maybe she's too young. She's too old. But eventually, you know, right.

You always have to pay potential, you know. Yeah, it's about fit. You got to find the right spot for her. It isn't about fit. So I was just going to say, though, that opening Chiron was just like, all these things happened, blah, blah, blah, targaryens. And then all the words fade except. like 100 years before DeNaris.

And we're like, okay, thank you. Like that was such a smart decision. I think the entire episode is like that. There is like a whole scene where Corlis comes in. He's like, there's a, all these free city tribes are getting together and marauding. And we got to, they're called like the tri fec. I think, are they called the trifecta? They are called the triangle offense.

Yeah, something like that. The triad kingdom, something. Yeah. Phil Jackson has these guys playing ISO. in the corner. But there's a dude called the crab crusher, which I believe was your nickname during your New England vacation last week. Don't step on my crab crush.

It's the crab feeder and he's in the triarchy. Yeah. Okay. You just totally took it. Sorry. That's like Stouskas, right? I'm actually, coming out of Maine, I'm the lobster baster. Oh, that's better. Yeah. That's better. The reason I was going to also talk about the scene

was not about potential voting irregularities, but just because, like, I didn't feel it was a, like, some prologue, and I know that I've been, I know not because we've seen, but because I've read a little bit and I see some people in the cast who haven't shown up yet, that this show is going to move through time a little bit differently than some other Game of Thrones shows have.

So, you know, we had the flashback, and then we're suddenly in a present where some of these things are established, and Vassar's been king longer now. But, you know, I thought that, that was fine. We get a sense of the fact that these weird ruling Aryan, Aryan tribe, like Aryan Targaryen, by the way, I think is a character this season. It's enough.

It's enough history and backstory, and we kind of get it. That guy's at like a Targaryen family reunion. They're just like, what's your, it's Aryan, Targaryen. Like, yeah, hey, we remember you. And no, Aryan Targaryen is the one who's just sending them a lot. lot of Facebook links. You know what you mean? It's just like...

Are we sure Jay Harris' election was... This is what the news isn't telling us. Yes. But then we're in it, right? I got some cool links from Carrie Lake I'd like to pass along. But don't you think that, again, it's an interesting play, and it's not dissimilar to the one that HBO did 11 years ago, where they were like, we... At that time, this seems quaint, but they were like, we're not sure our audience wants

dragons breathing hellfire on trains of, you know, people. But we do think they like palace intrigue. And I think that's evergreen. No, in retrospect, that show, Game of Thrones was a show for people who ordinarily do not like high fantasy.

And then they were like, but I do like this because there's cursing and incest and intrigue and election integrity and all that stuff and poisoning kings. Election integrity, how dare you. And then midway through or whatever at the end of the first season, the Dragon's Hatch. And you're like, by that point, you're like,

oh, I'm pot committed to this. But, like, this is, like, the reverse. This is, there's dragon is in the first shot of the show, basically. They will be a major part of this. Like, all of the, all of the stuff that was obscured. Hell, even the White Walkers are essentially mentioned in the end of this episode when Vesaris is telling Reniro about his vision that is sort of like the birth rate of the Targaryen kings that they have to, like, protect against this long winter.

that might come. And that is, and I don't want to get us off the track of talking about the beat-to-beat and the actors and characters, but like that is, to me, in the first show, the dragons were the nuclear codes, right? Like, that was something everyone's afraid of, and then it finally happened. To me, the more, I appreciated that this is when it's happening. Now we understand, you know, in the chronology of our show. But I'm not super into mentioning the Night King of White Walkers.

dragon being absconded to Mar-a-Lago while you're talking. Well, they didn't take the dragon. They took the dragon plans and maybe the location of three to four eggs. Like beautiful dragons. Just in case. These big beautiful dragons. Because the actual invasion of the White Walkers and the Night King was kind of a mess, right? Like it didn't, it wasn't the existential...

You weren't saying that at Hard Home, though. you were like, damn, Daniel? Like, yeah. It was amazing until it was actually over when Aria was just like, here you go, and we're done. Right. Like that was disappointing ultimately. And so you can talk about that stuff as the existential threat looming for these characters, but I almost wish they didn't because it puts a hard punctuation at the end of the sentence

and is the reminder that this is a prequel, and I'm not going to do the whole spiel that we used to do every year for Better Call Saul, about how having a prequel sort of nullifies some of the stakes and blah, blah, blah, let's stay here. I understand why in the early going we're doing the handholding and connecting, but this does that, maybe this is a good way to pivot back, which is to say, I am a viewer of the show that has absolutely no opinion about Targaryens broadly.

Like I don't, I am neither for nor against. It's fine. They exist. They have very strange hair and hair choices. That's the way it is. After one hour of this show, I very much care about Viseris as played by Patty Constantine. I very much care about Reneera as played by, at least in this episode, Millie Alcock, a different actress. I mean, Emma Darcy will take over at some point.

And I extremely care, not necessarily in an affectionate way, about Matt Smith as Damon. And so the drama as centered on these characters, that's a TV show to me. And I'm excited about that. And that's a success. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch.

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Save at Whole Foods Market. A couple other things I wanted to hit that's from the episode itself. You know, and you can just take me anywhere you want to go here. You know, obviously we find out that like Damon is is slotted. He's slotted to take over once Vassaris. I guess dies from extreme sepsis from sitting in that throne. I wanted to ask you about dermatology back then. Incredible.

They seem stumped on that. And I love the metaphor of like this power is poisoning him as it will almost everybody who sits in this chair. At a certain point, I think you relegate that thing to like museum piece and get yourself like an Ames. Or you adopt. You know when you go to the post office, if one goes to the post office, I know most podcast advertisements are telling you not to go to the post office. but and then you see people who like sort paper you just go to the post office to drop off all your ballots well after you've harvested them you've got to do something with them you're like I have all these ballots for damon where do I say hello um if you work with paper all day you're going to get paper cuts and then

you see people who have those little finger thimbles Kyle are we making too many election jokes no not enough thank you Kaiya our um Buds woman has spoken um But you know what I mean? Those little like rubber finger thimbles that people wear to avoid getting paper cuts? Yeah. Like that's a sign of thoughtful workplace evolution. Yeah, yeah. So if you're going to sit on a chair made of swords, you're going to have to wear more padded clothing.

You know what I mean? Like I just feel like, or maybe since they drink all that great dornish wine, when you pull out the cork, just stick it on the edge of one of the swords. Eventually, you're going to have a lovely conversation piece. It's swords and corks, right? I think it was, you know, obviously there's a deep. deeper meaning to his his injury. I thought that the, um, just in general, I loved the kind of, um, sort of backroom, I guess I would say like, I guess it's so funny. I, I almost want to say game of Thrones esk back room dealings, but it is game of throats. Just like the fact that even his

doctor is talking to Otto, you know what I mean, played by recycling. And like, there's like all this different, uh, stage whispers going on about this guy's condition. I also thought in terms of just the characterization of Vassaris, you know, when you first start the episode, it's not really clear what qualities he may or may not have to be a king, and it does seem like his time as king has been relatively ineffectual. It sounds like the city is kind of falling apart. But when it gets to that moment and he's working on his model, basically, when Otto so helpfully sends his daughter in to console him, I thought that that was like a really cool, like, glimpse at like who this character must be.

I want to talk about him as a character. You have a couple more points on his weeping back wound. Oh, yeah. When they harvest the pus from the king's open sore, and they're like, we're going to get this right to the citadel. Like, what is, what is the, like, does the raven have a little box, like a little ice box that says, like, you know, medical samples, no sharps do not touch him when it arrives?

What are the maisters there thinking? And also, what do they do with it? because it's the middle ages. Do you what I mean? They're not throwing it in one of those like test tube separating things. Like what are they doing? Are they just looking at it?

They definitely got some dude chained up in there whose job is to drink king's pus. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Try it on this guy. This guy needs scale. The other thing is like, what are our options here? And one guy's job is just to be like, we could burn it.

And they're like, that's a really good strategy. It does remind me of one of my favorite periods of our friendship, which is when you got really into house. The show. Yeah. That has the show. I also got into house music at a certain point, but yeah. That's true.

You got really into House MD, and you were absolutely just like throw a hot towel on it. It was, I think we were, it would just be like, if there was ever a moment. And you've had these moments where you would balk it coming out with me in the early 2000s in New York because you were like, sinus infection or like, whatever. I would just be like, here's what you got to do. You got to get a nice cold towel. and you put it on your neck. Yeah, you put it on your neck and it changes your life.

It's like that part in Die Hard where he's like make knuckles with your toes on the carpet to get over jet lag. Yes. It's a cold towel on the neck is like this solution for everything. You would be a grandmaster in that world. They would be running through kings like left and right. Those guys would be dying on my watch constantly.

You would just be like shrug and then just dunking another cloth and some cold water beneath the keep being like, this one's going to work. This one's going to work. I think that though, Again, like you're looking at a show that is meant to be the first domino of something much larger. You look at what they invested in. And it's not just that Patty Consign is a great actor whom we like and even love in many things.

It's that I wouldn't think to cast him as the king. Certainly as a Targaryen king as we would come to expect them. You know, I think he that he's a little more surprising. He's gentler. He's softer. And I think that that is working to the show's advantage. People think of him as not a mark, but definitely not as a threat. They think of him as someone who can be spoken to a certain way or dealt with a certain way.

And it runs counter to our expectations. And I think that's a sign of something that is well considered. You know, they weren't just like, have you ever been in a Royal Shakespeare production? Yes, Y slash N, would you like to move and be a, would you like to commit the next decade to the show? It was more than that. he's an interesting actor because he's been in a hundred things that I like, but he's never the like knockdown, dragout, standout person in it. You know, like, he's great and born.

He's great in hot fuzz. He's great in all this stuff. And then I think they're almost like, he seems very in touch with what he's good at and, like, what he does in the sense that, like, this is not a, Matt Smith's getting all the home run, the highlight real stuff. You know, like, Patty Constantine is essentially, I'm pussing out of my back and, like, immediately giving up my crown. Yeah.

What was? I'm trying to remember exactly the ghost face lyric where he's just like, I have, I keep a wild jungle cat and I feed him one chicken a day and that I didn't feed him today, you know? And like, that's kind of what they did with Matt Smith before they brought him to set. They were like, Matt, they're like, Matt, what do you love doing? And he's just like, I don't know, I like my family and I like acting. And they were like, we're going to quarantine you for two weeks from both. Yeah.

So when you're on set, like, that is, first of all, Matt Smith, like, I'm old enough to remember when they were like, we've cast this gawky unknown as Doctor Who, that he had that run and was beloved for that part. And then did the thing that I think some of the best actors do, which is like, I have been the face of something and now I'm just going to be interesting for the rest of my career. And then he was in Morbius. Yeah. Kind of love that. But again, if you. you are the actor who is, quote, interesting, that is a win for you. That can be like, look, I was just having a laugh.

I'm trying things, right? Sure, sure. I am all in on him in this, and he is on one in this. Let's talk about this part. Let's talk about what it does for the show to have the wild card calls coming from inside the house. And this is the one that I thought his role and his character. Not just Littlefinger and Jamie Lannister.

Also, Ramsey Bolton. You know what I mean? Like, all of it turned up. Yeah, it's like the idea that he is already inside rather than this outside agitator, I assume he'll probably wind up being ostracized from the kingdom. But, you know, he has that weird, like, slightly charged chemistry with Reneera. You know what I mean? Like, there's like kind of like they're already throwing out some like red meat to the truly

degenerate Thrones fans. They're not throwing out red meat. They're loading it onto carts. He's personally harvesting the reddest of meats just out on the city streets. But you know what? He gets bested at that tournament. Also, side note, like, that guy legitimately could be a Republican candidate for mayor of New York. Do you know what I mean?

Like, they nominated Curtis Slewa. Like, seriously, the dude who wears a beret and is like, I have 40 cats to patrol the subway. Yeah. Like that guy, God bless him, he was the legitimate candidate. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not impossible. It's not impossible.

The tournament I thought was funny because there's like a 50% chance you get your face split open in that thing. Like it was unclear what was like fight to the death and what was just like, ah, damn, you got me there. I fell off my horse for a second. Yeah, it is a really interesting mix of like the rucker. the summer basketball tournament, but then also Fallujah at the same time. Yes. It's surprising. But I did enjoy, that was like, they did a really good job in this show of finding settings

that were illustrative of larger ideas in the show and then having the characters, like, you know, Eve Best's discussion about like guys are all full of seed when they come here and like, you know, just like the idea that they're setting up this. That's so funny to be a 44 year old saying that. I just loved when she said that. I just thought that they found good moments to illustrate the kind of the gender dynamics, the idea that this is a woman who would never have the chance to be queen. She's about to find out that her niece, I guess, is going to become queen.

It was just really well done in that regard. I really liked, I mean, you mentioned, Eve Best from my favorite character, apparently Rainis, who's going to be a presence throughout the season. I really like Sean Brooks' performance as Emma, who is the queen for at least the length of this episode. Also, shout out to George R. Martin, because I thought that Emma is the new Kevin for me.

Because remember, what are my hobby horses was the fact that, like, clearly he ran out of names. And it was like Kevin Lannister, and then I see it on the Wikipedia, and it's KVAN. Like, it's K-E-V-A-N. I'm like, okay, so you just changed a letter. I was like, oh, okay, so there's, there's, the, the Targaryen queen is Emma. That's fine.

That's fine. It's A.E. Right. It's A.E.M.A. Yeah. She really, and she McBained out that, that, like, entire episode. Oh, yeah. She, when she appears at her feigning couch, she's like, I've lost five children in 10 years, and this will be my last go round.

Yeah. No, I was pretty sure she was penciled in as a series rag at that point. But, no, but for real, like, I, I'm curious how this develops, because, in the larger scheme of things, it is fair to say the world, but more specifically, the culture has changed in the 10, 11 years

now since Game of Thrones premiered. And anything in terms of gender politics or the representation of women or even just in terms of having intimacy coordinators and being more considerate about the nudity, all of that has shifted rather radically, and I think for the better. It is one thing, however, in a pitch meeting,

in a marketing document, in an interview on the red carpet to talk about the real battleground, now is the womb. Like, okay, that's a provocative idea. How you actually execute that in the narrative of the show is another thing entirely. So I am curious about that and their commitment to it. But that said, through this episode, I did appreciate that the character of Emma is one of,

if not the most important character in this episode in terms of what her presence gives to it. Yeah, she's certainly galvanizing. Yeah. The Rennara piece is really interesting too because, you know, you could be just super fanboy about it and be like, and again, I don't know what happens to this character, even, you know, as she gets recast and grows older and takes the throne, I assume. But you could be fanboy about it and be like, oh, this is interesting because it adds some context and credence to DeNaris's claim to the throne. The Targaryans did elevate women. They have ruled before, again, this is based on nothing but supposition of what we've seen. or you could be like her desires, her struggles, the society's expectations of her are, as you said about Matt Smith's character, built into the show.

It is not Aria as the arguably co-fifth lead of a multi-season drama reckoning with what it would mean to be a young woman in this world. This is the show. Yeah. And so in that sense, I'm interested in that, but I also appreciate the planning that went into building those things within the walls of the show we already. have, not just because it is just structurally different than Game of Thrones, which was like, hey, guys, guess what, we're going to be telling 10 shows at once for eight years. Can you keep up? And the answer was yes. It's that there are going to be, A, we have to care about these characters enough to take the journey before we start smashing crabs or whatever it is that we're about to do later

in the season. But also, they are planning this differently. When they greenlit Game of Thrones, they were like, Game of Thrones is Game of Thrones. Now they greenlight House of the Dragon. That 10,000 ship's anecdote that Allison talks about, or that Allison and Rennera talks about, that was a proposed spinoff itself and may still be. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm really excited, as everybody knows, because of my love of certain characters in the first series, that Steve Dusan is playing a sea snake, right? That we may have some pirate talk on the show. Yeah. But he's here on this show, but his presence and his success, either as a character or as a performer, might speak to more sea snake business in the future.

So it's both canny from a business and a storytelling perspective that they have kept the aperture relatively small, but that they've, within that lens, they've included a lot of the major planks that they want to be handling. And I think they have the mixing board just right. Like, you know, at the end of the episode when Reneer is being crowned and like Rick and Stark and I didn't catch the first name of the Barathean guy who's getting, who's, pledging this fealty. Obviously, those people will not be pledging their fealty long term, like 170 years into the future to the Targaryen. So it's interesting to see just like the echoes

of the future showing up in this show. Did you have anything else you wanted to chat about? Because we could wrap it up there. I don't really see, you know, I mean, like for me, I think one of the things that I would be looking forward to for this series. And it's going to require patience, I think, from us, obviously, but just from audience members in general is waiting for the breens of tarts. You know, like, waiting for that character to show up, maybe in the end is... Yeah, like later on, that all of a sudden changes up the palette of the show and changes up the sort of, you know, emotional character of the show.

And that's what Game of Thrones did so well, is just balance the 18 usual people that you were kind of following throughout and then also bring in Pedro Pascal and also go bring in this person for a season or two and you're just like, oh my God, this is like completely changed how I watch this. I think that's the most important point, which is that one of the most impressive and I think underappreciated things about Game of Thrones is that because of its sprawl, ask 20 fans of the series who their favorite character was, and you'll get 20 different answers.

Yeah. And you could be watching it quite honestly in completely different ways. You could watch that series as you're because you're rooting for Brienne or you're rooting for Ari or you're hoping they'll run into each other. And then to your point, like, oh, I remember the hound. Like, the hounds arc over multiple seasons is as surprising and rich as main character's arcs on more lauded shows, you know. And that's something that you can do when you have, it's not a mother ship.

There's just one ship. Right. That's not where we are anymore. And so coming out of this one episode, which, again, is not representative. It's one episode of something that is going to run for multiple seasons, I think. I don't, other than Matt Smith, whose performance I love, I don't have a favorite character here. I mean, we haven't talked about Reese Sifons, whom I love, and I love him as an actor, and I love him as Otto. I think he's just, again, outclassing the part already, which is exciting to see.

But I don't have, like, a fave character that I'm excited about. No, I mean, that really only kicked in, like, two four seasons in, where it was like, who's going to get the throne? No, all that stuff is. The pre-end part did, but the Tyrion piece was there from the beginning. Like, this guy's funny and interesting and likes to have a good time. And so he's helping me acclimate here. And this show is assuming that you have bought into the idea of either Game of Thrones or the Crown. And so you'll find something to enjoy here.

So that piece I get and criticism of that lack of spark also makes sense to me. But I think the biggest, again, I'll just go back to it. I just feel like the numbers will be the numbers and we'll see what HBO chooses to share or not share, and they may have done it by the time this podcast drops, or by the time you're listening to it anyway, if you're listening to it on Monday. But I think the bigger thing is, is that Game of Thrones is back in our lives. This isn't the show Game of Thrones, but the world is, and they did that. Yes. So that is why, I guess that if during the course of this week, the week after the premiere, you see interviews or post scripts or check-ins with

Casey Blois or HBO or Ryan Condal, like I think everyone's going to be feeling really good because they drove this crazy thing to its destination, which, by the way, was the starters line. But they got there. It's such a long way to go. Andy, it was great to see you. It's great to be produced by Kai McMullen tonight. We will be back.

Oh, we're not on Thursday, aren't we? We're not doing a show on Thursday. I tried to warn people this, but I feel like they trust you more. You know what I mean? I assure you that we're not doing a show on Thursday. We will be back next Sunday night to talk about Game of Thrones or next Monday to talk about Game of Thrones, TBD.

You can also check me out. on Talk to Thrones with Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson. Please check that out on the ringerverse. And we'll be back with you in a week. I look forward to it. Footing off replacing your window treatments because you think it's complicated. At blinds.com, we've spent 30 years proving it doesn't have to be. And today is your last chance to save big on spring black Friday deals.

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