The Watch - How Much Should TV Creators Ask of Their Viewers? Plus, 'Shogun' Episode 4 and 'The Gentlemen.'

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about a New Yorker profile of 'Succession' writer Lucy Prebble in which she wonders whether it's better to create TV that "feels like having a bath" instead of shows with complicated plotlines that require the viewer to follow closely (1:00). Then they talk about the fourth episode of 'Shogun' (26:44) and the new Netflix show 'The Gentlemen,' which feels just like the "gourmet cheeseburger" that chief content officer Bela Bajaria once described (44:55). Read the New Yorker article here. Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey. Hey. Hey. Can I talk to you guys for a second? Sure. Over 25 years ago, on September 29, 1998, we watched a brainy girl with curly hair drop everything to follow a guy she only kind of knew all the way to college.

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run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, he'll have the Nato. It's Andy Greenwald. Have you ever had Nato, Chris? I have not. But we're going to talk all about it because that's a big element of Shogun episode four.

Kaya's here Kaya and I were just chatting about East Side versus West Side Living and the extent to which our relationship might provide the basis of friendship I mean not to I was thinking about moving to the West Side and I was kind of like we hanging out or what?

I want to be clear I don't want to docks anyone but the thought of you becoming a West Sider is rich this is a rich text I don't think it's possible because you think that I would just all of a sudden be like wearing vans flip-ons. I think that you would be the documentary version of Will Arnett inflaked.

But Kaya's not like that. Yeah, but Kaya's not you. Kaya comes to her west-sidesness naturally. I got to say, it is hard to picture you there. Yeah. I mean, like. Standing outside of Whole Foods with a mouthful of Zin pouches. There's a couple things.

Kaya is not all again. Brother, have you heard the news about Joe Burrow. Kaya is a bit younger than us. Yeah. What's the opposite of a bit? Kaya is younger than us. Kaya is a native Californian. Kaya went to school on the west side.

Proximity to the ocean is part of Kaya's core brand identity. And everyone who listens to this podcast can tell. What's my core brand? A moment ago you said... What should I be proximate to? A moment ago you just did the Randy Macho Man Savage voice, imitating yourself hypothetically proselytizing for Zinn nicotine pouches and Joe Burroughs friendship with former President Donald Trump.

There's also not a lot of sweet greens on the West Side. I think in my, like, in Santa Monica, there's only like one around me. God. You'd have to be an heroin guy more. I can't tell what I'm more sad about the fact that there's only one sweet greener, that that's what Kaya thinks I amount to is just a salad. She's caring for you. I know how integral it is today.

Guy is respectful of you and your process and also knows that a half. Happy Chris, meaning a Chris who's had his usual leafy greens, makes for a better work environment. That's true. I mean, I think you guys are both looking out for me and you want the best for me. I mean, I would be thrilled if you move to the west side. Thank you. I don't believe. I just want the ringer contingent.

Oh, to move west. And you think that I'm kind of like a Oregon trail type Francis Parkman kind of guy, yeah. I don't, I think that there is a level of, it's not cynicism, but. but I think it's more practicality to what Kaya is saying, because if you were also traveling East to record, some of her daily considerations might be shared considerations. Like, I don't want to do it at this time or during mudslides or whatever the case may be.

That's bad for you. If it starts being me and Kaya being like, nah, dog, there's a big swell. It's not, do you get to shred it? What are you moving to Nazare? No, it is not bad for me because luckily, before all of this nonsense, westward migration talk started, I laid down the gauntlet that I am in person only for all podcasts.

Well, then we just establish a Santa Monica studio. That's right. We could get a little wee work going. Well, you would have to get a kind of a compound. Is that what you were thinking about? Yeah. You know what I mean? Just like a couple of small properties behind a firewall. Kind of like James Cameron. Everybody's got them out in the west side. I imagine real estate gets cheaper the closer to the ocean you go if I remember correctly. Yeah. That's accurate. Yeah, that's the theory. I'll take everything you guys say into consideration. Today, Andy, we're talking.

The R House Hunt would be the best pivot for this podcast. Do you guys have a smoking shit? Shogun and also The Gentleman, a show on Netflix that got released last Friday. It is a sort of expansion adaptation of Guy Ritchie's 2019 crime movie that I enjoyed quite a bit, called The Gentleman, and Guy Ritchie is responsible for this show. So we'll chat a little bit about that. And also, Andy, I wanted to kind of start here. a couple of people had flagged this to us on social media.

Okay. You and I are known across the land as the greatest proselytizers for folding laundry TV. Yeah, of course. If there's anything that we like more, it's not paying attention to what we're watching. It's being able to do household errors. The podcast is evidence. No, a couple of, I guess, years ago at this point, we, I think, made some reference to a show that we liked. I can't remember what it was, right?

We were paying so little attention to it. I know. I was paying so little attention to what I was even saying at the moment on the podcast. We were talking about the sensation of there's TV where you feel like you have to watch every single frame and be present for it and analyze every single decision that the creators are making and just granularly breaking down the text. And then there's TV where you're like, if I walk out of the room and come back in,

chances are I'll be able to grasp what's going on here. That angered Sam S-Mail, creator of Mr. Roebate. a director of Leave the World Behind, and he was like... Her frequent guest of the Big Picture podcast? Yeah, Big Picture, kind of the third chair there. I would say so. He was like that you guys are everything that's wrong with American culture. And then we bought him a coffee.

What a guy. So I mentioned this context because in the New Yorker's never-ending pursuit to write lengthy profiles of everybody who was in the Succession Writers' Room, there is a wonderful piece on Lucy Preble who is an accomplished screenwriter and playwright who worked on Succession. Rebecca Mead wrote this piece. I'm being snarky.

I actually quite enjoy when Rebecca Mead just spends tons of time thinking about people who used to work on Succession. I mean, she also created the show, I hate Susie, which people had been recommending to us for years. I still have not watched. I did watch and it was, I would describe it as, and this is me saying it's my deficiency, not my tempo.

Right. But I thought it was a very cool idea for a show. Anyway, Rebecca Mead interviewing Lucy Preble and they're chatting about life and TV and work. And here's a passage from this piece, okay? Yes. Preble is alert to the evolution of narrative in the digital age and likes to think about how writers and directors

might adapt to new technologies. She said, quote, over the holidays, I was with my family and my nephews and nieces. And like everybody, they now watch everything with the subtitles on, which I would never have predicted. She realized that her relatives preferred to have more information available on screen to ensure that they weren't missing anything if their intention was divided. Preble went on, quote, like a wanker, I'm spending hours and hours on my stuff

carefully calibrating an actor's performance in the edit, and they're just watching it with the subtitles anyway. She observed, this is not in a spirit of crumaginly nostalgia, but with an open, interested curiosity. Quote, I'm thinking that now there might be a market for television or drama. That's the opposite of Grabby. Something's happening all the time. Don't look away kind of thing. That Netflixy thing, she said. She cited the example of The Beatles Get Back, the Peter Jackson documentary about the 1969 recording of Let It Be. Watching that was more like listening to a chatty podcast. Hey.

You see Preble. Come on the watch. You could wander away and come back because there were lots of scenes of these incredible geniuses creating in a room together, but they were also being like, shall we have some tea? It suggested to Preble that she might want to experiment with, quote, doing shows that feel like having a bath where you just want to be in that environment for a long time. I thought this was interesting. Not only because, obviously,

this is something that creators are thinking about is how is their stuff being processed. Right. I think, to Sam's credit, he puts a ton of thought into every single frame and every single gesture and every single movement. that you see on screen and the idea that dickheads like us are like, do I still have Pringles?

Let me go check while it's going is probably maddening to him. Do you think he hears our voices saying, no, no, you don't have to pause it. Just ringing in his ears. But it is interesting to me to know that other creators are thinking about the ways in which these shows are being watched, the behaviors that go into them. And, you know, we're going to have obviously a specific conversation about Shogun and The Gentleman,

but I was snickering to myself last night. Just a little little private laugh where I think I got like 40 minutes into The Gentleman and realized that I am currently while watching The Gentleman Shogun, my wife and I have been watching Criminal Record on Apple. Oh, how is that? It's quite good.

It's a really fun mystery. Not fun at all, but it's a good mystery. I started watching three-body problem in a... But that's a screener flex. But my point is more that I'm watching currently like up to half a dozen hour long dramas. I think I have to keep like 70 people straight right now

in terms of like who they are, what they're doing, what they want, like where they are in the story, all this stuff. It's more than maybe the... Yeah, the fuck is up. Band just walked by. But he'd throw up some kicks. But he also then blew us a kiss that was either like, I love you or I'm going to see you in hell.

Yeah, well, I was like, I was telling him he's the best podcaster. I think that's accurate. So, like, if you're watching, like, say, four or five shows at any given time, you're keeping, like, upwards of 70 characters straight in your head. Like, for as much as probably, you know, people think of us as, like, the guy from idiocracy or something. Like, it is hard to watch TV and just, like, keep your mind wrapped around all these stories all the time if you're doing it at a high level.

I agree. Yeah. I think it's a very interesting observation. I think it's a correct one. I also feel like, like many bold and direct statements, the gradations of how to apply that sort of are not a... Are you talking about my statement or Lucy Preble? Your statement was mid, to be honest. My statement was like neither funny nor smart. But I can work with that. That is rough clay that I can use to craft. No, no. What I mean is like, I think how what she's saying ought to be applied is there are gradations to that. And what I mean is there is already a rich tradition of

let's vibe out in Bathwater television. Some of it is called golf. Some of it is called 100 foot wave. Some of it is, for some people, it's like episodes of chopped. Like I think people have plenty of access to that sort of programming. It has never gone out of style. When I hear some of us just sit with the screaming thoughts inside of our head. I'd just say west side or east side who can say. The way you said West Side or East Side is a little ominous also. Yeah, no, it's fun to just sit by the gaping hole inside of yourself and just think about it. Just stare at YouTube streams of the 405. Really no different.

For me, what's interesting about the statement, and I think it's very true, is the way that you can integrate that this bathwater feels great feeling back into grabby television. I say this probably like clockwork every few episodes of the watch, but I do think that's, that's still a central part of our particular relationship with TV is a, this world is coming into my house, so I want to be comfortable with it. Yeah. I think we go back to shows time and time again, not because of cliffhangers or grabby plot or buzzy themes or whatever that feel of the moment. We go back because we like being in a place with our pals, with our made-up pals.

And I think that the very best shows are able to honor that while also doing the stuff they want to do. it's not they do the other things on the margins, but they do them in concert with each other. Not to pile on Lucy's colleague, former colleague at Succession, Will Tracy's show the regime, but just as a reaching into my increasingly limited mind archive

of television shows. A little shoebox of references. It's just my cash clears after eight days. Do you know what I mean? I'm like the security footage at a 7-11. You're like a newborn baby every Monday. No, when the cops are like, do you have footage of that?

Like, nope, we just tape over the same stuff. Oh, yeah, that's my favorite. So the thing about the regime is even if I found it like sharp or the performance is clever or the satire, you know, like hitting the bullseye, I don't really want to hang out in this unnamed central European country week. It's not that great for me. And one of the reasons why I really liked this episode of Shogun, we don't need to jump straight to it yet, was because it took time to be like, look where you fucking are.

Think about it. Sit with it for a second. And I appreciated that, considering there were also going to be cannon firings later in the episode. So that's my read on it. To your mind, like, what would a perfect 2024, you know, let's push it forward, 2025 Bathwater Show B in this economy? Well, okay. So I don't think I did a really good job of explaining myself.

Van said that, but I thought you were good. I thought, my point really about the keeping 70 characters straight is that for as much as I'm sure, from the perspective of somebody making television, they're like, I put all this work into something and someone's folding laundry while they're watching it. That doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. For me, I'm like, I was just saying that for, I think a lot of TV watchers,

if they're doing more than one show at once, have a lot to keep track of. And it's just as much work to watch television in some ways when you boil it down as it is to like give, make television for us to watch. I know that that's not true, but let's just present it is. And then so my,

point largely was like, I think that we are kind of operating at the limits of what the human mind can kind of comprehend when it comes to like, hey, 70 characters and all these different plot lines and also maybe having a slight awareness that you're being artificially manipulated to extend to 10 hours or extend to two seasons or extend to whatever it is, it winds up becoming a little bit of a challenge. And sometimes having a show that you know you're just going to like walk in and out of, which is actually how my formative years were spent watching television because I didn't have a DVR because there were commercials because, you know, sometimes I got home at 835 instead of 828, so I missed the first five minutes of a show. Like, that relationship to

television felt somehow more natural? I don't know. Well, two points that I want to respond to and what you're saying. One is, I think that the conversation, I don't want to put words into Sam's mouth and everyone creates things, has their own perspective on it. But to me, like, a creator can only control so much, and they can control what makes them feel good and comfortable about the work they put into the world. And, like, so from my perspective, from my vantage point, not making Oppenheimer, for example, like Christopher Nolan's process is to micromanage every second of a movie and every frame and everything that you're going to hear. And he obsesses over it. And he wants it to be presented in the perfect, in the optimal way.

in 70 millimeter, IMAX, all these things. That's beautiful that he does that. That's wonderful that he does that. He is also someone who understands that people, sometimes like your humble narrator, will watch these beautiful movies on the back of a Delta airplane seat. It doesn't mean he shouldn't have done it. But you cannot control how things are received ever, whether you're worried about how your political messaging is going over

or, you know, when you're posing for photos with Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow, for example, or, you know, how much you frame fucking. something until it just looked absolutely perfect. You can't control it. Doesn't mean you shouldn't put in the effort. The second point, though, is I wondered if you think that the, just that, that the sort of intellectual effort of holding all of this stuff at any given time, does that change when something is well and truly binged?

Meaning, is that an argument for watching 10 hours of a Netflix show in 24 hours? Because then you were just immersed in a world in the way you would be in a movie. because my understanding of like Fremen culture is diminishing by the second now that we're two weeks away from Dune part two but what I mean is if you're trying to manage multiple characters in a complicated smart story over 10 weeks versus over one weekend

does that change your relationship? I think three body problem is going to be a very interesting answer to this question because it's not I think it's quite good I really like what I've seen so far like really like it but you just broke your own embargo. No, the embargo's been lifted.

No, the CR embargo. The CR embargo. But there's a lot of physics in it, and it's really dense, and it's going to be, like, hard for people to just be, like, breezing through it, I think. I mean, maybe it's been created to do that. I'm missing the point, but I'm watching it piecemeal. And it's a homework assignment. It's like, you definitely have to, like, keep your mind wrapped around multiple timelines

and, like, really heady ideas. In my experience, the bit, stuff that gets really binged is something like, one day on Netflix, you know, which is like, it's very good. Which is, it's, it is quite good. It is quite sad and it is 14 episodes, about half an hour or so each. Right. And it takes place over, it's like one day a year in the course of this relationship between these two people who meet in college. Is that the full title? Is it the way, remember the, remember the Fiona Apple album? It's like when the pawn, but really was really long. So one day is just what we call the show that's actually one day per year. Honestly, it's, it actually is a pretty good partner conversation topic with,

I liked it too. about to, I knew it. Did you finish it? I did, yeah. Yeah, did you cry? Yes, I did cry. Not as much as during Normie peeps, but... Yeah.

Some tears in the Ryan household. Not on my part. Of course, it's a real jeez-driker at the end there. It's a real tear-tricker. So anyway, my point was, like, that seems to be the kind of, like, thing that gets binged, where it's like, this will give me a desired emotional response rather than I need to think about the origins of the universe. Okay.

I could be wrong. The Lucy Pruble comment. meant about get back, I thought it was interesting because while it's like, yeah, you know, like you could just kind of like interact with these characters that you see on screen, but like in a passive way, it's like, well, they're also the Beatles. So I think if it was just like four dipshits from Dayton, Ohio,

like playing in their garage, we probably wouldn't have the engagement numbers. Is there 100 hours of guided by voices making a propeller in 1992? Is that where you were just... Would you watch it? Yes. I have a lot of laundry. So, yep.

Yeah, yeah, I would. That sounds actually amazing. I also do want to say that when you, you read this profile before I did, and then you were texting me, you were like, here's some interesting. Here's the interesting section, yeah. Do you have some other takeaways?

Well, no, it's just that when you texted me and you said, did you see what she said about Get Back? And how, like, and I saw that you were like, you were like, you know, laundry folding conversation. And my brain said that you were talking about Get Out. And you were like, why aren't more TV shows like the Jordan Peel film Get Out? you could just chill out about and fold laundry to.

And why didn't movie theaters allow us to fold our laundry while watching Get Out? B-Y-O-L, yeah, I do that. Did you watch Get Back? Yes, but in a very loosey-preble way. Yeah. I cannot tell you if I watched all of it. I watch some of it sometimes. It's a very good profile.

It made me very interested in her plays. It also blew my mind because watchfave Ed Solomon shows up, the writer of Bill and Ted's and also of Full Circle, the show that we loved with Stoderberg last year. They're married. they have a new baby and they met over Twitter and then Zoom during

lockdown. Damn. Wow. Really? You didn't read that part of that? I didn't see the Twitter and Zoom part. Maybe I was treating this article as Laundry TV. But your home is immaculate. Your East Side home.

I mean, your beach Pietatera is TBD. But yeah, that he had written something in 2021 about being mistaken for the Boston Strangler or some, forgive me, some like murder, like some funny thing from his past. And she had retweeted it and he was like DMed and then they were chatting and then they were zooming during pandemic. And then when they went to New York to film succession

season three, he went over to where she was staying and they almost got busted by the quarantine police. Really? And now they got a baby. That's a beautiful story. And his first wife is John Cleese's daughter. He's fascinating too. Huh. You know what, Chris? We cover television, but you know what's really wild? We're mapping the human heart. Reality. Yeah. I was blown away by that. Did you have anything else to say about this? I think, I just think it's an interesting ongoing conversation. Here's one thing that is more interesting to me is that the shows and the showrunners don't get to decide how people watch these things. Right. This is the thing. That's kind of, I, you know, in my case, I'm probably reacting to feeling like I have a little bit like of a volume

issue in terms of how much stuff I'm watching. In other people's cases, it might be, you know what, I think I know what's going to happen in this scene. So I'm going to go get some peanut butter. And I think that there's a lot of different reasons why people watch things in a lot of different ways and to your point about Oppenheimer, it's like, yes, there is a optimal viewing experience for that film. Is there also a legitimate viewing experience for it if you're watching it on your laptop in bed or watching it on your phone or watching it on the back of somebody's head in an airplane? Yes. I mean, I would say I'm patient zero for that, or Exhibit A, because I saw Oppenheimer with you and Sean on IMAX. Yes. And I was blown away by the experience. And I also,

as I said on this podcast, had I felt things from a Nolan movie that I hadn't before. Like I did feel legitimately like, I got it. Because I've loved some of them, and I've been mid on some of them, and I've generally been like, my thing that I don't love about his movies

is that they are so deeply unemotional. I don't understand a way in. Watching that movie in the way he intended, I was like, oh, his emotion is expressed through sound design. Yeah. You know, like that is actually what he is passionate about,

and you can feel that in the movie. And that is a very different experience than people who watch it streaming on Peacock. You know, and anecdotally, people who I know who have done it that way, if they like Nolan, they like it. And if they've not liked Nolan, they feel the same way about this as all the other ones. To the other point, I want to zag on one thing.

Okay. Which is, when I say we, I don't mean us in this. You mean the royally? Yeah, well, royal is a controversial term these days. That's true. This is blown up. We've got to bring Kyya back in on this. No, it is a, I'm going to zag on the idea that, like, we as a pot,

As podcasters, we make hay from talking about modes of distribution and how we watch things and where things go. But I do think it has absolutely bedeviled the industry, that the creative, supposedly creative community, and it's not just writers, but even development executives and people on that side of the ball, have to spend so much of their waking hours thinking about how things are going to be received, which pipe it's going to be fed into. For many years, that was not part of it. That conversation was in the head of the creator being,

like, is this a book or is this a movie or is this a TV show? And then there were three pneumatic tubes like in Hudsucker proxy and then you just went about your day. The idea that people are spending so much of their waking hours being like, you know, I think I imagine this as a binge on a streaming service, but one that appeals to this demographic. So to sell it to them, we have to tailor it this way. And then we have to remember then if we're doing it that way, we have to do the episodes in this manner or even Lucy Preble idly musing about, you know, maybe people want this because of how I'm watching people receive my content, it's just getting very muddy.

I just feel like maybe all of this will shake out in a few years and it'll be clearer what's a TV show, how TV shows are watched, and then we can move on from there. But I do think that there's an argument to be made that some of the, not hesitation in the work, but honestly, some of the confusion in things that we've been covering over the last few years is directly connected to people spending so much time thinking about the shape of it

as opposed to what they're putting inside of that shape. Yeah, I would argue that probably if I had to say, I would say folks should worry about making the best possible television show they can, telling the most interesting story they can, because a lot of what Lucy Pruble is talking about is just watching YouTube. And I do that too. Like sometimes I will put on the 4K video of a guy making breakfast in an Australian campsite with just his dog.

And it's pretty awesome. Who's holding the camera? No, you just set stuff on tripods. Oh, I thought the dog was holding the camera. Okay. That would be. I was much more interested in that. I do think this is...

I don't think this guy deserves an Oscar either. Oh, like the dog from Anatomy of a Fall? That guy deserves. That dog deserves an Oscar. Who are you referring to? I think I was just referring back

to your Auntie Scorsese takes from Monday's pod. I think the voting history of the academy is on my side. I think that... You know? It's a great place to be

on the side of the academy. I don't argue with the will of the voters. Should we get into Shogun? I think we should. And I also just want to say, good job by you. Because I think that

the conversation that was sparked by this New Yorker profile is relevant to the two shows we're talking about today. Sure. Because I think both have done a very good job navigating these tripwires and such. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back.

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forward slash active cash terms apply. So let's talk about the fourth episode of Shogun, eightfold fence. The eightfold fence is the name of the episode. And it was written by our old Grantland colleague, Emily Yoshito. So shout out to Emily. That was exciting to see. I'm really happy for her.

She's also hosting the official Shogun podcast. which you can listen to, and she worked deeply on this show, I believe, as a staff writer, correct? And so Emily wrote this fourth episode, which is a more contemplative episode, I think, given after the sort of momentum of the first three, this was a necessary kind of like, let's sit,

let's talk about earthquakes. Let's sit and look at the rain. What did you think? I thought that this was a beautiful episode that was also, to your point just then, very well placed. coming back to what a fan I am of the construction of the show

as we've seen so far? And the construction of this season. Yes. And I haven't watched ahead. So, you know, like, for all I know, I don't know how this is going to unfold, but to me, the lineup card has been set exactly right. This is a, it's almost as if Shane Steichen is calling the plays. Do you know what I mean?

In terms of just knowing when to mix it up, like you come out throwing and then maybe a run, surprise you. Yeah, and I think that that's remarkable because, you know, both from talking to people in the industry, from my own experience being in writers' rooms, I've found that one of the hardest things to keep your mind on or that for showrunners to keep their mind on is that overall macro conversation of the pace. Like you spend so much time crafting each tree that you're not always thinking about how the

forest is going to hang together. So three wildly paced, riotously exciting episodes where so many things are crashing into each other literally and otherwise, let's be in a place for second. And let's think about the place that we are in. And not only in the more traditional, or at least not traditional in a, necessarily in a good way, but a more outmoded type of storytelling where it's about stranger in a strange land and look how strange this land is, it is that it is presented as this is beguiling and it's beautiful. And sometimes you sit and look at the rain. And I thought that, all that was so great. And then I made me appreciate the kind of action flex at the end of the episode even more. Because again, it knows, this.

knows what it is and you can feel very comfortable relaxing into it. Well, I also thought that the overall theme of the episode seemed to be individuals trying to define themselves outside of various systems of control, like whether that's being a soldier, whether that's being a what country you're from, being Japanese, being British, whether that's being a pilot or a military tactician, whether that's being a Catholic translator or a daughter of some, you know, we haven't really got

Mariko's story yet, but like we are starting to get flashes of it. And I think it's obviously going to have a substantial impact on the whole arc of the show. I also thought this was a really awesome episode of supporting characters, becoming main characters in some ways.

Like even Fuji, uh, felt so fleshed out by the end of this episode. So I really, I really thought that there was, this was like a necessary gear shift to give us like, a lot of nuance and also like frankly do the thing that TV does really, really well, which is time spent equaling depth of feeling and time spent equaling depth of relationship.

Because when you get to the end of the episode and there is some ambiguity about like what happens towards the end before, I'm talking pre-canon, but when we get to the end of the episode and there's this moment of sexual intimacy for John, I think there is some confusion a little bit online and I mean, I don't know officially, like, who he slept with. You don't know. Do you know? You think it was a cortisone? Well, I was confused, which is intentional.

And then I did a little cursory Googling, and it's the consensus seems to be that it was Mariko. That's what I thought. I thought you saw it. It was like a cortis. Like, I thought you thought she was telling the truth when she came outside the next day and was like, we got you a girl. Hope you liked it.

I think that was me falling for it and watching the episode. after dinner. Okay. No laundry, but I just got to be honest with you. I made a lovely dinner. Maybe made me a little sleepy. Okay, so that's what I thought too.

I thought it was Mariko, but for a variety of reasons. By the way, I love this game of chicken we're playing where it's like... Who's going to be wrong? Who's going to have their name on being wrong about this? It's not just that. It's that if there's one thing

our friends at FX have made it clear to us is that they are listening and available for just spot check and stuff. But neither of us, Either of us were like, hey game. I think that it's played for there being some mystery to it. That being said, if it is Mariko, it is the consummation of like basically 60 minutes of these two people becoming, if not falling in love, like growing very close over the course of the episode. Well, hot tubs do that.

Yeah. And earthquakes, baby earthquakes. Baby earthquakes. You want to comment a little bit about seismology in... not that. The one thing that makes me laugh, and there's no other way to tell the story, is just that Mariko and John Blackthorn are the most proficient Portuguese speakers in the history of the world. They would speak on such an elevated level of Portuguese discourse that Cristiano Ronaldo would be like, huh? Do you understand? Like, their education in this language, which again,

no disrespect to our millions of fans in Brazil, is not traditionally one of the great five world powers that every student learns. They... True, but at the time, crush this language. They were running shit, though. They crush this language to the degree where Blackthorn is just like,

the things that he says when he thinks no one can understand him, except I guess Mariko and the audience, when he's, like, how do you say fuckery in Portuguese? So do you always think, is he only speaking Portuguese? No, my assumption is...

Yes. He's doing English. But then Mariko does a little smirk, and is it because Portuguese curse words, you know, being a romance language, there's a lot of overlap, or can she just, she knows this dude at this point. My favorite scene was when they're outside

and there's a little timblor, as they say, and he's like, my God, what the devil is this? The earth moving beneath my feet? What is this place, the Japan's? And then she's like, ah, you don't know this thing. This is, and then in beautiful, molyphaloist Portuguese. I'm on the edge of my seat wanting you to just do Cosmo Jarvis the rest of this episode.

She's like, my God. Sequin Barclay. Howie Roseman never overpace For running back In this market I suppose with the cap going up It's possible I don't like it

But it's possible But she's like in perfect Portuguese She's like that's an earthquake And he's like earthquake you say Well I suppose my Portuguese master Never used that term with me Which makes sense

The earth quakes We all You get what I'm saying Maybe what we're seeing Maybe what we're seeing is that he is saying, you're sweating. I just love this. This is honestly my favorite fucking thing you've ever done. I think that we are seeing that John Blackthorn is actually a language prodigy.

Because in the span of that scene, he is undone by the tectonic plate movement, learns a new word in a language that isn't his own. And then it's just like, yeah. Can I just throw some scenarios at you? What about John Blackthorne walks into a contemporary CVS? By God Is the aphrine behind the plastic shielding? Where the devil's the toothpaste?

What buccaneers have come through and taken all the aphrine? I see, make sense. Spike of crime. Post-coronavirus. Scurdy guards. Where are the swords? They're weapons. Oh, encourage not to confront.

Well, it makes sense, I suppose. Tacticians. Everyone. Is that a pharmacy? God damn it. It's so cold if you just be able to have it on demand like this. My God, the Easter can. Oh, fuck.

Greenwald, you are the best, man. Don't let anybody ever tell you anything otherwise. We step it down for a while just to like towel off. This is a new vibe in here. I like it. Fuck. Okay. So that's the Blackthorn and Mariko thing.

I also really, obviously, I made a joke about it in the opening of the pod, but I really enjoy it when guys eat stuff that they're not used to eating and they're like, hmm, and they have to. They have to... You want it again. You want it. Can't overdo it. But...

Bit like cheese. Yeah, I... Have you had some... Have you had Nato? I have had Nato. And what's... So Nato is like overly fermented soybeans. And they ferment to the point that they get kind of sticky and like pull apart...

And ripe... It's right. It is a fermented product. So it is like cheese, which is not something that was eaten in Japan, certainly the 17th century. It's an acquired taste. It's an acquired taste. It's not a... even so much the taste as it's a texture thing.

Yeah. But I thought that was cool that, that was a, that was a beautifully observed moment. Yeah. And it wasn't overly indicated, which I thought was good as well. Like, the sort of the taming of this Western Barbarian is being done, like, in relatively subtle degrees. And I liked that they weren't explaining, well, this is, here's what we do with the soybeans. He was like, I would also imagine that our guy has eaten much worse.

Absolutely. Do you know what must have been happening on the black ship while he or like on his on his ship? At the beginning they had no food right? They had no food. They had no water. Yeah. He was taking sand measurements and just being like, I think he's doing well.

Now, again, as someone who was recently, even just on a casual level. Do you think that captain has bummed out that he put a bullet in his own head right before they got to Japan? You got to see the journey through. I think that's a great point. Although, you know, I guess the counter argument would be maybe he's the one who gets boiled alive.

And then you're like, I really would have preferred to take a... I had a moment. Yeah, exactly. As someone, again, who is sort of in a casual house hunt of his own, how did you feel about Black Tees just kind of like... He kind of negs his house. I think that there is a housing abundance in these towns that I want to get to the bottom of, you know? Right, where they're like fine...

I disagree. I feel like there's a lot going on behind the scenes where they're like, get him a house. No, because when... Is Shido's men show up when that guy shows up, Joe Zen and it's like, yes. Yo, like houses for all these guys. I'm just like, we're yim-being out here. You know, like, there's just so much inventory that visiting soldiers get their own

quarters. I assume that every, for every visiting soldier, someone has put out on their ass. I think that there's a hierarchy here of, like, who gets to have a house. Yeah. And who's in charge of, I don't think anyone is. Oh, so you're just like, if you're like a fisherman or something and Yabushige is like, we got it, we got some. None of this belongs to you.

Yeah, they're like out. Yeah. It is a collective property ownership, you know? Okay. Anyway, yes, it would be great if somebody was just like here your quarters now. And it was just like right on Manhattan Beach. That would be sick. Yeah, and they're like, it also here's your servants and your consorts.

I think my wife might not love the consort part. Well, there are aspects of it that she would like. And maybe in the Blackthorn model where he is not taking advantage of all the pillowing. Yeah. But there are certain things that she might enjoy.

For example, we learned in this episode that the consort can't go to bed until the host goes to bed. You are on record that sometimes late-night SVU put CR to ZZZ-Z-Z town. Yes. So in this scenario, Fujisama would stay awake with Phoebe and watch. SVU. Yeah. And just chat.

Because, look, she's a chatter. Like she would like a late-night talk. I'm sure. There's a lot to be explored there. Let's talk a little bit about the sort of political and militaristic maneuvering that goes on. So I thought that the opening scene where Tornaaga is basically doing a Nick Saban speech as this crowd just goes absolutely wild for him.

Kirouki Sonata is so good. Yeah. And the fan up and down. I know that he's talked about how he was so hands-on with like when the script would come through. and then when they were on set, Sonato apparently would go around adjusting the posture of different actors and stuff like that. You can tell he's holding himself to that same standard because it's just like, it's very iconic.

It's really quite a performance so far. And you understand why they built the show around him, why they filmed that one day just to keep him in the property alive. Yeah, but it's funny. I, when he leaves, when he leaves, I was like, fuck, man, that's like, that's my guy right there. I want to spend more time with him. I'm sure we will.

But he is the battery of the show, kind of. I also related to his social strategy because there was a whole period of years in New York where I would be like, let's go to this place. And everyone would land and we'd have a similar warm welcome. And then you'd be like, cool, how long are we staying? And I'd already be in a taxi. Yes.

Leaving. Yeah. The Greenwald goodbye. He was, I mean, he bounced. But, you know, this is to my point about people discovering their own identity and choosing their own paths and stuff like that. I think that for Omi, for Toranaaga's son, to some extent for Yabashige, like, they're trying to decide, like, who am I loyal to? What are my duties as a son? What are my responsibilities to my own manhood, you know?

But in the light of the conversation you were having before about keeping track of a lot of characters, this is a show that is primarily in a language we don't speak and is not just introducing a ton of world in a lot of historical context and culture, but also many characters in this. different geographic locations. And yet it is so artful in it that, like, Yabushige is already one of my favorite characters on television, full stop. That Omi, within this episode, makes a very, very strong and clear impression. That's really-smiles when the, when Tornaga's son is going off and he's just like, I got him. That's really hard to do. But it's not just that he's doing the Gatim, it's that they laid the tracks so that when they're

having their little sake time before, you're like, I see the machinations here. Yes. because we've been watching a lot of shows about tortured family dynamics and power machinations recently? Maybe, but Shogun doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it's playing off of that. And the same way that you said at the beginning, that, like, oh, there's some Game of Thrones energy to the credits. Like, I just feel like the show is operating on a very elite level where it is training us in certain ways to expect things or to put our minds in a certain place. Yes. So that we are receptive to all the shit they're throwing at us.

And the kind of brash, youth rebelling against the staid. maturity of their elders is on display in the final scene, which is so gory and so thrilling and so breathtaking. Kendall Roy, Ian. I guess we've just moved on from protecting horses, you know? Oh, do you feel like, do you feel like the California legislature weakened the post luck? I understand that this is entirely CGI. It's, I mean, it's right.

If there's someone who watched real horses go down watching. luck. I could tell that this was different. Yeah. My only thing was, at the end of this episode, this is the one time that I was a little, not out of it, but like, when did they move the cannons to hit them? I think earlier in the morning when they didn't, like, he was like, I don't know when, like, Torinaga's son and Omi have their, like, pregame drink. Right. Maybe that's the night before. So then, like, maybe he goes out and he's just like, let's like reverse everything here. I'm fine with it, clearly, but also for, like, dramatic purposes.

of course. I have two different strains of thought that are colliding. One is it's very clear that when you're at the top of the power structure, you can have anything done at any time for anyone that people are willing to do it. But I did feel like how many cannons did they have and they did not strike me as the most like mobile? They're actually, I think they are a little bit smaller, but your point is taken that they, but the whole point is like this pinpoint accuracy, I guess. And do you think Blackstone was just like Blackthor? You did it. I'm thinking about you. Do you think Blackthorne was just like, just still kind of feeling? You're going to give me a little, one last dash of it?

Now I'm feeling pressure. This must be how you feel every day you walk into the rewatchables taping. Maybe I should just stop doing impressions, you know? How dare you? But I just mean, I feel like Blackthorne must be like a little bit in his still feeling like post-coital good energies. And he's also like, who did I sleep with? But he didn't notice. What's with the question marks over this?

But he didn't show up being like, like, at five caddens. count three. What happened to the other? He does the do list. Is no one going to stop him again? That is his main thing. Yeah. Great episode.

Really enjoyed it. So let's move on. I wanted to touch on the gentleman. Do you think that when you're living on the west side, you will just sit on your deck and watch the rain? Like, did you feel like, did you have any desire to have that kind of like nature, kinship that he seems to have that?

Yeah, but if I did do that, I wouldn't want to do it in California. Hmm. Yeah. You'd want to do it on Iraqis? What do you mean? Where are you going? I don't know.

Like Maine or whatever. My back to the land movement is going to be outside of the greater Los Angeles area. I'm not going to do it in the valley. We are not on the Toranaga level of influence on our troops. But if someone could take the shot of John Blackthorn sitting, looking out over his garden in the rain, and Photoshop an iPhone into his hand where he's watching like Andrew Huberman reels. while the rain is falling. So he's watching that instead.

No, I think we'd all know that it was you. Like, that's your ideal set of. It's a very specific request, but I'm sure it'll be fulfilled. 12 years deep, everything we do is specific. That's how we make great art. Dude, I fucking love the gentleman. You know, like, and I say that with just like,

I know how many episodes this is. The first episode is like 67 minutes. It's a long. It's a long one. It's based on the 2019 guy Ritchie movie with Matthew McConaughey. Charlie Hunnam and Michelle Dockery and Hugh Grant in an outstanding

Hugh Grant turn. Did you see the movie? So I want to ask you about this. So I have not seen the movie. I am a relative newcomer to the Guy Ritchie expanded universe. Oh, okay. And I'd like to know did I need to watch the movie? Is it it, it's not a one-to-one or is it just like the same vibe? At least so far I have not, I've not

detected a real, like, I think that the premise of the illegal weed industry in England is largely the baseline of the film. I was not shocked that there is a weed industry in the UK. So this iteration of the story, it stars Theo James and Kyas Godelario, who people may remember from Skins, UK, and has been around for a minute, but she's fantastic in this. So the basic premise is as follows.

The show is about this guy named Edward, who is a UN soldier when we first meet him. He's actually the second son of the Horniman family, an aristocratic British family, who have owned a sprawling estate for hundreds of years. gotten up to some shady business over that period of time. The father dies, and it's all supposed to go to coked-up twat, Freddie. I say that pretty much quoting. But it instead goes to Eddie. There's also a daughter named Chuckles, who is told in the will that she is to sail around the world and marry a man.

Well, she gets a boat as long as she sails around the world within six months. And marries a man. No, she gets a... An allowance. An allowance of a thousand pounds a week until she marries a man. Yes. Eddie also inherits Jeff, a muscle-bound groundsman, and a business relationship with Susie Glass,

is played by a Kai Escolario. But Jeff is played by Vinnie Jones, so I bet he has no secrets or physical prowess. Exactly. Who is running a weed business underneath the grounds of the estate. Throw in a scouse cocaine cartel, a scammer named Sticky Pete, and a mysterious rich American named Johnston with a tea,

played by John Carlo Esposito, who has a wine drinking process that I really want to ask Andy about. And you've got a rogues gallery. The show looks great. I think it has just enough richieisms in terms of the filmmaking to keep you on your toes and keep you engaged. There's just like a zest and a panache

to the dialogue that I loved in the movie and I love in the show. It is like just an absolute romp, honestly. Like it's violent, it's profane, it's well done. I love the pitch that everyone in this show is singing from. I fucking love the guy playing Freddy

I think he's on Lovesick. He's amazing. Daniel Ings. He is cooking. He is blackthorning out. England just has just such a deep bench of these guys. You like this, though. I really like this.

And I really, really liked it because, again, like in the light of this conversation we're having, like, if you want to make a gourmet cheeseburger or a gourmet pub grub, whatever the UK equivalent would be, hire people who know what they're doing. and know how to have fun. This is so light on its feet and so grabby and so confident that like it makes it look kind of easy. And this is not trying to be a prestige Sunday night show. This is exactly what it purports to be.

Like this is a... It's honestly, it reminds me of the boys. Yes. Totally. Sure. Yeah. And that it is, it is profane and violent. But it's, and like the boys, it's very well cast and it's very clever.

And I Also I got to give a shout out to the former Mr. Madonna here Because all I could think of while watching the pilot He directed the first two, I believe, is the What do you call it? When Steve Coogan is playing Alan Partridge and his face is floating And he just says, Liquid Football Because everything is just so beautifully designed

And the camera moves so perfectly And every thought is considered And there's just these little touches of wonderful detail, like when Susie Glass, who's the Kaasco delirio part, where she walks into the fish market to confront the crime boss who also is chopping up

Peter Serafanoitz, yeah? He's chopping up Hake and mackerel, etc. And it's Peter Serafinovitz. So you're already positioning from a position of strength. She's walking her high heels in a fish market, and there's just a moment where she comes up against a guy who's just mopping,

and they sort of have a moment of collision, and then he pulls the mop away. It's the tiniest moment, but in less expert hands, you cut that for, you know, and it tells the larger story. And then there's like a delightful scene after that. It's like her and Peter Serafin with his character are negotiating Freddie's debt to this scouse cocaine mob. And it's got like illustrations on screen and translations for slang. And it's like basically like just so indulgent and so fun and so interesting to watch, honestly. It's okay to have people who look good and are good at doing stuff.

That is genre entertainment at its finest. Yeah, how about Theo James, man? So let's talk about Theo James, who I do have a thought, and we can maybe punt this forward to the third season of White Lotus conversation will inevitably be having next year. Because I do feel like one of Mike White's secret talents is he just might be a true core talent vampire in that when he casts you in the White Lotus, be careful.

because I feel like he reaches into your soul and exposes your best on- I'm not saying these are who these people really are but they're like essential on-camera selves to the point where they're almost like withered husks when they go back into the world because no one is ever going to capture them at their best again.

I actually, okay, so go ahead. So I sometimes wonder that. That said, De Ho James is very handsome, very debonair, with a kind of a quiet menace and he's very charismatic. And he's the perfect... It's not that he's a cipher.

He's like real character. He's going to be moving through this world. But like he's also... He's almost like an action figure being moved through this crazy fun house carnival ride. Yeah. And I think he's perfectly cast. It's not asking too much and it's asking just enough.

Yeah. He's really good at walking to a room and going, what the fuck? Yes. Or walk going to a room. And if somebody is like, how is everything going? He's like, poorly. Yes. But he has, like, he's a guy who's, like, done a lot of, like, he was always, like,

the other hot guy in a YA movie for a while. Right. And then I think was, like, maybe going to be this romantic lead for a while. But, like, there's only so much, so many romantic leads left out there. Mm-hmm. He seems to have aged right into his, like, platonic ideal age. Like, mid-30s or whatever he's at right now. He's pushing 40.

But yes. And just having a little bit of weather underneath of his eyes and a little bit of, like, seasoning to his game has, like, changed it. And he's a believable, like, aristocratic stud. But he's also like, I bet this guy can fight. You know, like, his costumes are just, I would watch the show. He's wearing barber jackets. He's bawling out of his barbers. He looks great.

But let's also talk about the movie to TV thing. Because one of the things that's great about this, I think, is that he is playing a more traditional movie part. in the sense that I don't really care about his backstory. We're introduced to him as he's a UN peacekeeper who gets along with everybody. Yeah. Fucking great. Who everybody seems to like grudgingly respect fun. Yeah.

And that, get done with that so fast and that just sets the tone for who he is. He's James Bond. It's like when James Bond walks into a fucking room and it's like, you know how to play every card game. You have an opinion on every wine. You have like, it's like he is just a Wikipedia of being a cool guy.

But that's a movie character generally. And one of the best archetypes of movie character. and that, like, I just trust someone who is competent and can move through a world that I know nothing about. Like, done, great. And I love that. And I love the confidence with which they're just basically setting up a movie story. The only thing that I kind of...

My only pause in this, because I was... I loved this. I had a great time watching it. I am going to watch the rest of this season. Was it is quite long. And there's a moment, like, there's so many highs and so many, like, and it's moving, and it's moving. There's like four episodes in the first episode.

Exactly. And then when we get to the chicken dance stuff at the end, and it goes on for quite a long time. Yeah. And the outcome is quite clear, relatively early in that runtime. That was the first time when I started to be like, oh, is this going to run into a kind of pacing problem that movie people run into when they're like, that'd be mad as a TV show, wouldn't it? Like that, you know what I mean? Like, like, oh, a TV show you say? Never heard of it. now you're being bashful.

I'm shy. I was thinking about it. I was thinking about how they make a lot of the television sets and the Japan's, but I'm not going to do it. Your point is well taken. I do think that also there is a yes and quality of the storytelling where it's like you get to the end of like, it seems like Edward has like fixed the problem

and then very last time, the very last moment, the problem gets undone again and he has a whole new set of problems. I think that will probably continue to scale out, you know? Yeah, that's the show. Yeah. It's whether or not you enjoy the, vibe to me and I really enjoy the vibe. I thought it was such, it's just an elegantly put together

show. Like even just that, that the confidence of the opening like, this is who this guy is and let's go. Yeah. And then when he pulls up to the estate and the title card is just transposed beautiful font yellow lettering over this wild ass manner. Yeah. Like, it's nice to be. So Richie has been with us for, since we were in college, really started with, you know, locked stock and two smoking barrels and snatch. And I think that you could take a whole swath of the movies he's done, which he has like a couple of different strangely careers within his career. He has his own material that he has sort of generated that is largely about the London

underworld crime world. Then he also has studio hired hand where he's done, you know, Sherlock Holmes movies and, you know. The man from uncle. He did the Aladdin movie. Did the Aladdin movie. And then in recent years, he has been incredibly prolific in this almost like, Robert Aldrich, like, old school genre,

workman-like, prolific genre director. So he has pumped out, like, The Covenant and Wrath of Man and, like, Operation Fortune, which is this kind of daffy Jason Statham Bond-style caper. But he's incredibly prolific. He's got the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen coming soon and then also is already, like, making another Jillenhall movie, I think. Well, he also has made, he made an action movie with John Crosinski and Natalie Portman.

like fountain of youth. Oh yeah, right. That's, that's what he's moved on to. Yeah. He's, he's very busy.

Yes. So, uh, and in the meantime, it was funny. What was like, oh, I was just watching,

like, you know, he has like, the aesthetic of Ed, of Edward is, is Richie. Like, with this,

this refined aggression, this likes the fights, but also loves a hound, you know, hounds chasing some foxes. Well, and an 82, uh,

Bordeaux. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, I like to go, out and watch underground boxing, but also drink incredibly fine wine. I would be remiss if I did not ask you about this one scene.

So, John Collos, Pizito. Before you, just the last guy Ritchie thing, we also were talking about him the other week because he's announced as the director of the Donovan's, the IP-related Ray Donovan companion series. That's going to be the London version of Fixers. And that just made me triply psych now. Because I have not, as I've said many times, like, I think I saw

lockstock in two smoking barrels. I don't know if I've seen anything else Guy Ritchie's made. No. You've never seen Snatch? No. You should. I guess I should. I actually really like rock and roll it, too. I never saw any of these movies.

And I left the man a lot. I was doing adult travel baseball that time with the fellas. You and the rest of the nerds are in the cinema. Okay. Anyway, my whole point... Oh, you want to ask about this scene. Well, before we get to that, my whole point of going through his career was just to say that in many ways,

he has been telling a variation on the same story for most of his career anyway about the London Underworld. So I think that how... have like a 10-hour, you know, very long kind of runway here for that. It kind of makes sense. Whether or not it's going to get repetitive or feel a little bit stale by the end, I don't know. But, like, I'm very excited to check it out. There is a scene in the first episode.

John Carla Esposito shows up. He's this mysterious guy named Stanley Johnston. He's incredibly wealthy, incredibly refined. Clearly has a lot of admiration for British upper class, I guess, seemingly. He also has a helicopter. And a very particular way of drinking wine that I wanted to ask you about before we went, which involves him essentially decanting it through a paper filter to clean the liquid, then cleaning the bottle of all sediment,

then replacing the wine back in its original housing to be enjoyed. Have you ever heard of this? I've heard of this, yes. I'm going to be honest with our listeners. I don't generally drink 40-year-old red wines, so this has never been particularly relevant to me. Okay. You don't do this with like a, a, a, set. 17 shard.

Like a California Rousin from like 22. Yeah. And break out the Mr. Coffee filters. Everyone, this is going to take a few minutes. No,

I mean, I think that there's, because people have seen decanting before, and there's the idea of that is to let some airate the wine a little bit. And wine, there's sediment in wine, the older it gets. And I think there's a,

there's a spirited debate about whether the sediment is essential to the character of the wine. like if you're drinking an older wine. Yeah, should you be drinking that? That is part of it. So what are you taking out when you filter things out? And also are you affecting the flavor profile by putting it through paper,

you know, like all these different things that some people care about more than others. So I think, based on my deep knowledge of Guy Ritchie personally and professionally, as well as on screen, that he is telling us something about Stanley Johnson in this scene. Okay. That he's precise. Well, that he's precise, but also he doesn't like things to be messy. He likes to control situations. and that he might not, in fact,

have the ability to walk the walk of, what is it, refined aggression? Refined aggression. Maybe he's more refined than aggression. Do you think John Carl Espizzo is like, I really like to play a fucking slob? I wonder this. Thank you for asking this,

because you mentioned the boys. Yeah. And I'm trying to think, I imagine that the history of Hollywood is just marked with examples that I have no access to now because, again, cleared my cash, but that of characters who were like,

I found my lane, I'm just going to play it for the rest of my... It's called character actors. Yeah. But like not just character actors, but like what's his name from, like, Sydney Green Street? Yeah. Just like, you know, you're going to, I almost did it. I'm not going to do it. But he's, you know, that he plays the same part, basically, in Maltese Falcon and Casablanca, more or less, because that's what he was brought in to do. So I feel like it's very well-paying for John Carlos Spazito to be very precise man in a suit with menace.

But this at least had a little more pepinate step. I think him on the boys, I'm like, you're just, you're just, you're just, wearing Gus Frings. There's also a feeling of that where it's like they shot for three days of him, like, standing in Vaught Industries, where it's like with this, I think, I hopefully there will be a little bit more juice. It also seems like an incredibly fun thing to make because you're just playing billiards in like a $10,000 suit. I am so here for just the lifestyle porn of all this, the frippery and the suits and the billiards. Like, yeah, let's go. Money well spent, Bella Bavisaria. That's all I got to say. I agree. This is a good show. Do this. TV. That's what I thought. You were worried, though.

I wasn't worried. I actually, the second it started, I was like, Greenwald's going to like this. Because in the opening moments, he's keeping the peace as opposed to, like, murdering someone. So you knew that I wouldn't. No, as soon as, as Freddie starts talking during the Will reading, I was like, Andy is going to really enjoy this. Oh, it's so good that scene. Also, I will say, speaking of Freddie, you know our guy, Freddie Fox shows up this season? Edward Fox?

Edward Fox. Freddy Fox's father plays the dying patriarch. So, yeah, does Freddie Fox show up? Freddie Fox is on the Wikipedia as a cast member of the show. Yeah, which we haven't seen yet. So I don't know when or for how long, but the fact that our guy,

young bumpy knuckles from the Slow Horses universe, is on the show. Makes me really excited. Thanks to Kaya for her real estate insight and also her production know-how. And thanks to our listeners, we recorded this on a Tuesday. It'll be going up.

I mean, we could put it up a little bit earlier if you wanted to, but this will be our second episode of the week. So if we missed anything in between Tuesday and Thursday, culturally speaking. Or like breaking news. Yeah, but like what constitutes breaking news in our world, you know?

Here's the only thing I'm worried about what we just laid down to tape is that I did make like a sort of flippant reference to the missing princess and then like what if the truth comes out by Thursday? Do you think that's possible? Do you think we'll know, well our listeners know more

on Thursday than we know now? If anything develops in the next like I don't know 24-ish hours I will record a solo addendum. That's awesome. Can we just on the, like we give you full producerial permission to just drop in. Let me tell you something. She has it anyway.

I know. But I wanted an audio record. I would know how to stop her. I consent, is what I'm saying. I consent. Keep us up to date. It's funny that you think that this international conspiracy hinges on whether or not you make fun of it on a podcast. It's going to be wrapped up?

No, no. I'm okay. You just are misunderstanding where my values are. Like, I will go on this mic and be like, wow, I can't believe Blackthorn slept with Torinaga. Like, that was wild. Like, I don't care about getting that wrong. But I am... But Kate Middleton. I never want...

Well, she's Kate to us still. Yeah. From the New York days. I never want to get a single detail wrong about her. Because those late night parochies in Feselke... Also, libel laws in England are different. Yes. So you think about that.

Yes. And you and I might be there at some point soon. And then I don't want to get nabbed at the airport. That's right. Right? I don't want that. Right? Have a great weekend, everybody.

Border control, you say. Certainly not here for me.