The Watch - How the Coronavirus Is Upending the TV Industry. Plus: ‘Westworld’ Season 3 and ‘Devs' | The Watch

Episode Date: March 17, 2020

The spread of the coronavirus has halted many television productions, and we take stock of what the TV landscape may look like in the near future (1:39). ‘Westworld’ returned on Sunday for its third season and many of the show’s old problems returned along with it (21:11). And with ‘Devs,’ Alex Garland is creating a different kind of TV world that’s interested in the “why” (33:42). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line as we observe social distancing. It's Andy Greenwald. We're under lockdown, baby. Yeah, yeah.

This is a first in watch history. You know, obviously Andy and I recorded last Thursday. And it's a testament to how quickly evolving things are that quickly, quickly changing things are that this is where we're at today. I haven't really left the house significantly in a couple of days. The beard's coming in well. Thanks for asking. Andy, how are you? I'm well. I'm concerned about you because I think people who listen to this podcast know that you're kind of a great dane. You know what I mean? Like you're just, you're very physical with people. You'd like to jump up and embrace people and kind of wrestle. That's always been your vibe. So I'm

just concerned about how you're doing physically apart from the world. Yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, doing okay. I think that it's been really interesting. I think that the week is weirdly better than the weekend for me, like to have a couple of things to look forward to a couple of ways to build my day out like around like doing this podcast or just doing work on the ringer and we've still been publishing stuff and having a lot of meetings virtually. It's easier than just spending the entire weekend looking at Twitter. Like I really admire and appreciate, you know, there's like a whole section of Twitter now that's like basically a recommendation engine

for if you're stuck at home alone, here's stuff to watch. And we're going to be doing a lot of that on this podcast and we'll be doing a lot of that on the site this week. But man, like I haven't gotten myself there mentally yet. Like I've watched stuff, but I haven't gotten to the like, I'm vegging out and just watching all of, you know, line of duty season three right now. I just,

I'm just too distracted by the feed. Yes. And even while I'm trying to, socially distance myself from social media, I would say that the ability to disengage and actually catch up on stuff is still kind of a pipe dream for those of us that have now become advocates of homeschooling. I know that people are probably looking forward to some quarantine binge watch options. I can tell you that the Princess Diaries, starring Anne Hathaway and Julie Andrews

is surprisingly dated. Not at all what I expected. It really feels like it's from, I was going to say from another era, but that movie's 20 years old. I was actually thinking about you today. I was thinking about you today

because I was like, Daddington Island got really real. Yeah, I mean, we are on an island. My boy Bobby Caruso is in the building. I mean, look, I would say, that for people wondering, things that I learned this weekend, Hector Elizondo and Julie Andrews have a magnificent chemistry. Not one that I would have seen coming. And, you know, I was pleased to see that both my daughters were still scandalized by the bad words in a PG-rated film, the bad words being

shut up. Oh, really? So, yeah, so we're doing well over here. Also, and, you know, I want to thank all of the watch hive who thought of me first, sometimes even before their own children, when we saw the news that the new Disney CEO Bob Chaypec just as you put it in the text to me, dropped the bag early and just made it rain for everyone bravely, happily stuck at home during these trying times and Bob Chaypec is, we got to make a thug motivation, like a GZ mixtape of Bob Chapac as the snowman, just throwing out the frozen snow. God. I mean, each one of those squares stamped with Olaf's smiling face. It was great.

And, you know, I mean, I was joking about it on Twitter. Like, it's incredible. It is truly a kindness, I think, to parents who are stuck at home with kids and kids who needed a treat. And it's exciting. But, I mean, it's also just smart business. Because as we're seeing, you know, now that the movie-going experience is basically null and void for the next few months, that release window thing is gone. And I wonder if you can ever put this toothpaste back in the tube.

So a lot of things are going to be appearing on demand. And also, it is probably not that Disney Plus has needed a particularly strong driver for subscriptions, but especially in this time. But it is a pretty strong move to be like, here, come get this. Because it's not just people like me who are already subscribing who are going to take note of this. It's people who saw the little news hit that the announcement of Frozen 2 early drop generated and then thought, oh, maybe now is the time I subscribe. So this was not purely benevolence by our man. No, of course not. And we saw today the news that Universal was going to be releasing the hunt and Invisible Man straight to demand,

even though those have both had some theatrical run. What is this troll's world, excuse me, what is this Trolls World Tour Erezor? Yeah, I know. Sorry about that. Sorry to steer us towards 13 and over content. But, you know, the first thing I thought of when it came to the hunt and Invisible Man, was this idea of seeing things in their context. Because if you are like,

okay, hey, what am I going to see? It's February 27th or it's March 15th and any other time in the world history. You're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to, well, actually, not any other time in world history, but any other recent times, you would just sort of be like, what's at the theater?

What's my best option? And now those movies are being released. And of course, they come with a little bit of like, there's a little bit of juice to them because you're like, oh, man, the hunt, it's on demand. now I can watch that, and I will watch it here at home. But it's going to be placed in the pool with every other thing that's ever been released.

TV and movies. And it's interesting to think about these new, quote unquote, new releases in that context of, sure, and also against the Circle Brazil, if that's what you want to watch. I mean, they're all, it's like an immediate flattening of the sort of pop cultural platform in overnight. it's also suddenly like the streaming wars that we've talked about and we'll continue to talk about have suddenly become like the streaming shower scene from a history of violence in that it's extremely close quarters combat now right like all of these services or at least the major companies that have services are front loading because you know and I don't even think this is not the same thing as like buying 17,000 bottles of Purell and trying to price gouge on Amazon this is truly like this is their one thing that might do well for the next few months. And obviously, we should say at the top that the financial concerns of multinational corporations are not where our thoughts and prayers are first and foremost during this global crisis.

But, you know, in the spirit of a podcast that talks about the entertainment industry as an industry, it was already trending in this direction, but the next few weeks and months are going to be just very, very intense on those platforms. as everything is funneled to them and everything is funneled to them quickly. I wonder whether the thing that will be really interesting provided that there is an industry

at the end of all of this and I'm not trying to be like dune saying about it, but that idea of toothpaste back in the tube, you know what I mean? Like how do you go back to, you have to wait, you know, you get to see the hunt for three or four weeks in the theater

and then you have to wait for whatever, three to six months before it hits demand, that whether or not we'll ever go back to a time where that is whether that is the way we watch things. I mean, I'm sure for the major 10 polls, I'm sure that that will stay the case. I mean, the movie business is still a huge business. The theater business is still a huge business.

But yeah, I mean, and on the flip side, talking about the streaming services, I don't know if you saw today, but they essentially are going to have to delay the release of Fargo season four. Yep. Because they're not done post-production. You yourself only just got done.

you just got under the wire, really. We're not done. We actually have to mix the final episode, and we're still determining in between before and after this podcast, we're figuring out how we're going to do it remotely and safely. And, you know, we're lucky. We're really lucky because many of my friends

were in production on shows, have had to shut down entirely. And, you know, as we saw with Fargo, it's delayed because of the shutdowns. and it's a capricious business. You know, I was joking when I was shooting the show that my own anxieties never allowed me to think for a minute that we were going to get through it

because I just figured someone was going to come in and say, you know, you've had a good run, but we're pulling the plug here. This is real now. This is not just neuroses. When this situation is resolved or things calm down, not everything that was shut down will start up again. It's just a nature of it.

It's really, really unfortunate and really, really disruptive and stressful for people who make their lives doing this. Yeah, and you think about all the people who booked gigs kind of in succession and how the schedule change, the massive schedule disruption is going to change everything moving forward for years, probably. It's interesting, too, all the little very inside baseball things that went into something like Fargo season four's release date. I think probably, and I have not asked him, and this doesn't seem like the time to ask him, probably knowing the way Noah Hawley works, he's not upset about having more time to post the show, let alone more time to be back in production,

because it did sound like I was a little unclear if they had finished shooting or if they were doing reshoots or what, but regardless, they shut down whatever aspect of the show they were working on. He is a perfectionist. He would love more time, I'm sure, because the subhead of the story was that it will now no longer meet the eligibility window

for awards this year. And that's one of the reasons why it was coming out when it was coming out because that's baked into the production plan for shows like Fargo, shows that are critically adored and rightfully so,

shows that have had an audience and rightfully so, but as I've been saying, for personal reasons, and other people have been saying for more, you know, with more perspective, basic cable is a bloodbath. And regardless of the fact that Fargo season four will probably also be, you know, not day and date, but next day on Hulu or FX on Hulu, every little bit helps. And so building it, you know, they definitely, FX

definitely scheduled a release date that probably didn't give no as much time as he wanted to perfect the show in order to keep it on track to get FYC attention, FYC billboards, FYC love. I mean, I think if I'm reading this deadline article correctly, they're going to miss the, they're going to miss the Emmy window. Yes, that's right. And that's why it had that relatively early date, a date that supposed that they would be close enough to being done that it was worth putting up, causing them to rush.

But there's a ripple effect across everything. And this is, you know, it's unfortunate, but this is really just the beginning. Yeah, I don't pretend to know much about how linear cable advertising. really works, but I imagine that the losses there are going to be incalculable. Just reading a little bit about from Lucas Shaw over at Bloomberg and talking about what this is going to do to the cable TV business, you know, I don't think we're even really beginning to wrap our arms around it. No.

Could I segue from the doomsday to talking about a cable show that is still on? Sure. I feel particularly shameless at this moment. and I was just sort of working some of this out on Twitter. It feels super weird to be like, hey, if you're home, watch my show, but people are home, and there are five episodes of Briar Patch on demand that I would love for people to catch up on, especially in advance of tonight's episode, episode six,

which is on tonight 11 p.m. after wrestling. Also, because who knows the status of our fun Briar Patch Thursdays, since it's not really going to be possible to get guests on the foreseeable future. Well, we should keep talking about the episodes on Thursdays. Oh, we'll talk about it. But I loved bringing in different people from the production. Just to say that this is our craziest episode. This episode is called The Most Sinful Motherfucker Alive,

which comes from a scene that you'll see tonight when Jake Spivey wildly, wildly misquotes the Battle of Ashencourt St. Swithensday speech from Henry V. And it's our action episode, and it's crazy. And there are rocket launchers and there are giraffes, and there are fistfights, and there are cheeseballs. And I will say that if you have been watching the show or if you were on the fence about watching the show,

everything kind of changes after tonight's episode. If you're behind on Breyer Patch, take the time to catch up. And this is a great time to get caught up to because you're about to get, the stakes get higher. You know, it's just, I feel really fortunate that we were able to,

and we will be able to finish the last thing this week, that we were able to finish the show. and my heart goes out to everyone who's sort of stuck in limbo. I mean, it is not, obviously, people's health is paramount, people's safety is paramount. And I think, you know, again and again on Instagram, aka the social media platform that I am allowing myself to look at with regularity, we see people who are going to be deeply, deeply affected, not just emotionally, financially, by stepping back, being very gracious about this for the benefit of the greater good.

But it is not a small thing, I think, to acknowledge. It's a sacrifice, you know, for artists who are postponing their tours, for visual artists who are postponing their gallery shows, for people who have been dreaming of getting into production on their dream project and having it shut down at the 11th hour, it's always an uncertain business to work in this field. And so if there's any way that people who are at home have to support people, you know, whether it's, can we people still buy records?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would recommend that people go to like places, you know, there are direct ways to support artists. You and I really like this band Young Gov, and I was reading Ben Cook's Twitter account, as the guy does, who's the main person in Young Gov. And he was like,

we have a tour booked. People have sublet their apartments. You know, like working artists, like they're not like, oh, I have this home and this home and this home. They have an apartment somewhere.

They're subletting it out for two months, three months at a time while they go on tour somewhere. So it's like, it's pretty crucial. that if you believe, you know, if you're, consider yourself a pop culture fan, try and show it with your wallet where you can, if possible. Particularly, particularly, um,

with independent artists, whether they're music artists or their visual artists or, uh, theater companies. Um, I'm going to throw restaurants in there too, because that's something that, that means a lot to me and I'm following, you know, along like, we, we don't have, this is not breaking news. I don't even think this is political commentary.

We do not have a social safety net in this country for people who work in these fields. And for the greater good, people are stepping back and shutting down. And it's going to have a real tangible cost. And I'm sure it will for some of our listeners as well. And so, you know, I think that we're very, Chris and I are very lucky to have a pretty vibrant community around this podcast. And we see you out there on Facebook. And let's look after each other. Yeah, for sure. And now let's criticize a TV show. Because if there's one thing, I came here to do two, things and I'm all out of chewing gum, also out of sanitary wipes because

there was a run on them at Walgreens. So basically this weekend I spent, you know, I watched the third episode of Devs. I continued to watch 0-00, which I continue to say, yes, it is maybe a little bit of a tense time on planet Earth to be watching 0-0.

But like, man, it is narcos on mushrooms. It is pretty special shit. And Andrea Riseborough as like like a Michael Corleone in Rachel Comey pants is really something to behold. If you have the appetite for that. So yeah, devs.

And then, of course, there's Westworld, which we got to get into. So can I jump in and ask you about zero, zero, zero. I'm very interested in the show. I like all of its auspices. I generally really enjoy stuff like this, certainly in book form. But what I'm wondering, Chris, is because you know me pretty well. I'm just going to be straight. We should maybe start a recurring segment, frankly, on this podcast.

called Can Andy Handle It? And the thing is that I'm wondering is because it strikes me as a very tense, very stimulated show in subject matter and in tone. Will this be like, you know how there are people who do not suffer from ADHD? And if they, I'm sure accidentally takes a riddle in, it gets them real edgy, really hyped up. However, if you do have ADHD and you take Ritalin or a drug like it, it kind of smooths the edges. So I'm told. So I'm told, again. This is what some kids, there were some kids who were hanging out by the local college before they shut them down.

We're telling me about this. Yeah. Anyway, what is this show going to do to me if I have, you know, relatively limited time because I'm sure as our listeners know, there is a Princess Diaries too? So, you know, that's first. but then in the limited time I have post kids bedtime, you know, while I'm just getting the lesson plans ready for tomorrow, is this going to send me off into the suite hereafter on a good note? Yeah, so should I give you a little bit of, I'll give listeners a little bit of background on what this show is before I say, give you my answer. So this is a show on Amazon. I believe it's 10 episodes. It stars Andrea Reisboro, Dandahan, a guy named Miguel Torres, who I think is quite good in this show. but is terrifying.

And it is a triptych story. It's basically the story of the buyers, sellers, and brokers in an international cocaine deal. There's basically like this massive amount of cocaine being shipped from Monterey, Mexico to the Calabria region of Italy. And a family in New Orleans that owns

shipping, like boats, is shipping it. And so that, Andrew Riseborough and Dane Dahan play brother and sister, and they are overseeing the shipment. And it's basically telling the story in Monterey, on the boat, and in Italy. And it is kind of told in this very, like, hyper-styled realism that you would expect from somebody like Denis Villeneuve. And it's so, so deeply kind of rooted in each place that it's being shot. And each place the story is set. So Maricio Katz, who's worked on the bridge and on Maniac is sort of the creator showrunner behind the show.

And then Stefano Salima, who did Day of the Soldado, is one of the sort of main directors. Maguai does the score. Andy is asking, can I handle it? I don't think so. I wish we are on a Google Hangout. I saw Chris's face. I saw him take in the severity of the situation, took a quick glance at the stock market, and then saw my face.

I'm seeing Jerome Powell and computer says no. No, I think the problem with it is is that if this was just a book, if this was a novel, you would be like all in. But there's something about how extremely violent it is

that I think you would find pretty unnerving. I think you would enjoy large swaths of it. But there is also a sort of deliberate nature, as you know, there is a deliberate nature of telling a story over 10 episodes that I think if you're not completely locked into the story,

it's difficult sometimes to get on the tonal frequency of it because it's going to take a while to get there. It's not like, oh, yeah, in-and-out miniseries or 25-minute episodes. These are, this is a hard 10 hours. So, you know, if you go on the journey, it's pretty incredible. And if you can really immerse yourself and, like, let the Maguai kind of, like, wash over you. It's awesome. But it is like, it is a tough hang.org production.

Are all 10 available? Yeah, they're all on Amazon now. And you were able to, and you've only watched, you haven't watched them all. Now I'm on four right now. Oh, okay. Yeah. That's good. Dane Dahon, just like staring out at the sea a lot.

You love things where people stare out at the sea. I really do. That is a classic Chris Ryan callback. We're going to get to devs in a bit, but should we talk about Westworld a little bit? Yeah, I want to talk about Westworld. And so at the end of our last in-person pod, I believe, or maybe the last one we did in the studio, Oh no, this was last week when we were together. This was just three days ago.

What a difference, how time flies. I think we made some sort of clandestine agreement that in exchange for something, I would watch this. And I have to tell you, I did enter into the weekend. I hope you got that box of wet wipes. I said to you. I did it. I'm not leaving the house again.

I want you to know that I did agree to that in good faith. Because I am a team player. You have done a lot for me on this podcast, and as my friend, over the last few days, weeks, months, and years. So I wanted to do this for you. And so even in anticipation of doing it, I went on a little website called Vulture. And they had a very helpful article basically saying, here's what you missed in Westworld season two. And I went AWOL from Westworld at some point in season two. I don't even remember exactly which episode was my last.

And I started reading it. And you know the meme from my cousin Vinny when Joe Pesci just says, you were serious about that? I went. Is that a meme or is it just something you say a lot? It's a gif I use a lot. I reached for the gif in my own mental mind a lot. Uh-huh.

And I say this with total. honestly, humility. I think people really enjoy the show and I also think it's not fair because as someone who's been saying over and over again that when people on TV shows have plans,

they're generally bad plans and when you just tell someone the plan that happened on a TV show without the context of the performances, the way that it's shot and designed and the general vibe that you've agreed to go on a ride with, it does sound like a crazy person telling you their dream

on the back of the M72 bus. Yes. That said, the dream of Westworld Season 2, from what I gather, which ended with everyone killing each other

but no one really being dead, I couldn't do it, man. I couldn't do it. So wait, you're saying you didn't watch it. I didn't watch it. That's okay. Because you know what I did?

Yeah. I'm coming to you with the recap. Oh, fantastic. So you don't have to watch, baby. Westworld season three, episode one. I can't remember the name of this episode, but I think it was in Greek. Sure.

Or, you know, Latin. You could tell me anything, and I would believe it. We pick up with our girl, Dolores. She's in the quote-unquote real world, where the only currency is crowbarring the word fuck into every sentence. And she goes globetrotting around, killing important former guests

and doing a lot of astral projection and talking like the architect and the Matrix. Meanwhile, Bernard, shout out to Jeffrey, right? He is now a bot, or he's been a bot. But I don't mean like a Russian bot. I mean like he's a bot. And he is now working on like a Francis Malman type sheep farm. And he gets jumped by these dudes

who are like, you look like the dude who killed all the Delos board members and the employees. so that's a bad beat for him. He's stuck there. Dolores, it turns out, she is dating John Gallagher Jr.

who plays a guy named Liam and his dad is basically like, he figured it all out. He's got the biggest, best computer in the whole world. And now John Gallagher Jr.'s character is just kind of like, I got this, don't worry about it,

but it's really just a figurehead. And he's got a bodyguard who pretty easily figures out that Dolores is not who she says he is. she is. Who's she saying she says she is? His girlfriend. She's just like, I'm just a lady who shows up at parties. Now, mind you, Andy, I want to mention this.

This show looks like if they shot Blade Runner at the Grove, which is like an outdoor mall in L.A., but everything in this episode is like really brightly lit and it's kind of Blade Runner-y. I mean, Blade Runner is obviously very atmospheric and foggy and dark. This is like the flip side, but then they drop the Vangelis keys Yeah. So it'll be like Aaron Paul walking down a walkway and it's like,

bamb, bomb, speaking of Aaron Paul. Aaron Paul is in the show. Before we go down the Jesse Pinkman route, I do have a question because you're saying that Dolores Yeah. Having who escaped the park.

It was a robot who escaped the park has murdered many, many people. And apparently it's also also Tessa Thompson. Apparently, that's what I learned from Vulture. Yes. She's also Tessa Thompson. So isn't she famous? Because here's the thing, again, I, people know that I've got children.

I haven't really done the whole theme park trip yet. We've managed to avoid it. But like, my kids know who Minnie Mouse is. You know what I mean? Like, my kids recognize minions. So my point is if Dolores is just like the key attraction of the biggest, most exclusive, kind of like sex capade amusement park game in the world

when she's just out and about why aren't people noticing her? What is the level of notoriety? Somewhat I'm clear on that, although I do think that there is a what happens in Vegas element to Westworld since most of what happens there is so depraved, right?

So I don't think that there's a lot of like going on live on IG as me and my boys hit the saloon. You know? But I think that that is a great question because earlier in the episode, there is a wanted poster up for Bernard being like, have you seen this man?

And all the dudes at the Francis Malman farm are like, yeah, that's Sergio. He's right there. They find him real easy. So I don't know why Dolores is able to circumvent all that other than the fact that she seems to have the ability to control like basically all computers. So that's a good look for her.

Let me just tell you a little bit about Aaron Paul. Okay. He plays a guy named Caleb. Okay. He spends most of the episode kind of mournfully walking around Los Angeles in this, whatever future it is, talking to the ghost of Kid Cuddy on his AirPods. Wow. Is it really Kid Cuddy playing himself? It's Kid Cuddy playing Aaron Paul's friend, but he's dead.

And Aaron Paul spends the whole show either work at construction or committing. crimes for money where you have like this like Snapchat filter from 2013 that's like time to rob an ATM. Sick. And then he goes out with Lena Waith and Marshawn Lynch. That's a cool hang. And they do crimes. And then at the end he's doing a crime and he's doing something. I don't know why he gets called to go do this thing for the Irish bodyguard who's John Gallagher Jr's bodyguard. But he gets called and they're like, yeah, thanks for the package. Beat it. And he's like, hey, stop.

Don't do that to her, but it turns out, you know, he's got a good heart. He's also got a sick mom and he has a secret from his time in the military. And this is where I want to get to with you, which is my disappointment with this show. Okay.

I thought you were getting me to a place where you were going to say. No, they had this opportunity on Westworld to not only reset the story because they were leaving the parks and they were going off into this, you know, other world, the real world, so to speak. But they had an opportunity to reset how they told the show.

And I think that obviously it's a success. So there is something to its recipe that's working. But personally, I just am so frustrated by every single character on this show having some deep yet unraveled mystery to them. Even somebody like the Aaron Paul character who at least at first glance could step in and be the audience avatar that this show has never had. there is no reason why you should really be invested in any one character on the show because they're either a robot, their consciousness can get uploaded into a robot, or they're already dead and have come back to life. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's more than anything else, my inability to get into the show, because as we've seen with devs, and we're going to talk about it in a second, like, I can roll with some portentious sci-fi malarkey. That's okay, I think. But the Vulture thing put me on.

honestly because it made it clear that everyone has died or could die and is coming back. And thus trying to find an emotional foothold on the show is like trying to scale a glass skyscraper. And we already know how you feel about AI and robots. Oh, have I talked about that on this show? I thought I did that on the Dave Chang show. No, you did it with me. Thanks, though. Yeah, so what are you going to do? Are you out? I'm in. I'm pot committed. Wow. I have to ride this market out. You do not sound like a real-life stock trader. Scared money doesn't make money, and I have to just stick with it.

I've got to find out what happens. It's not like I have a ton of other stuff on Sunday nights to do. But here's legitimately my question. What happened? What are we trying to learn other than sort of Uroboros snake tail-eating mysteries that are baked into these characters that you've established that we don't fully emotionally care about. Is there a larger narrative here that I'm missing? And again, I really don't want to... I'm not going to make you do this every week. And for people who are

like Greenwald, if you don't like it, don't talk about it. We won't talk about it. It's okay, guys. Just relax. We're just having fun on a pod. We're just talking. We're just two guys locked in our houses. Talking about robots. You know? Just like we drew up, just like we drew it up. Let me guy Andy Live, you know. Should we, so okay, so you're in, I'm socially distancing myself from the show, but I do feel guilty about it. You'll enjoy my recaps from time to time, right? I, I, this is the highlight of my week. Are you kidding?

Yeah. This is great. Ghost Kid, Cuddy? Are you kidding? Do you? By the way, for what it's worth, we did watch one grown-up entertainment this weekend, also ferociously on brand. We watched the Agnes Varda film from 1962, Chloe from five to seven. Had you seen that before?

I'd never seen it. Have you seen that? You fired up a little criterion collection? Honestly, that was the kind of escapism that we needed in this household. Something fucking French. Yeah. Just something that was a little bit jazzy, a little bit obtuse, and, you know, just kind of a reflection on morality and mortality. That was very enjoyable.

We'll be back after a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Ben and Jerry's. Ben and Jerry's and Netflix have churned up something extra special. When you pop open a pint of Netflix and chilled ice cream, you can experience the magic of things that go perfectly together. And just like your Netflix watch list, there's something in a pint of Netflix and chilled ice cream for everyone. Follow these sweet and salty pretzel swirls like you follow plot twists in your favorite drama

or dig out of fudge brownie every time you laugh out loud. at that new comedy special. With the perfect mix of peanut butter intrigue, pretzel drama, and fudge brownie belly laughs. Netflix and Chilled pairs well with any of your Netflix originals. Dig into Ben and Jerry's Netflix and Chilled Anywhere Ice Cream is sold or find a new favorite at Ben & Jerry.com. That's B-E-N-J-E-R-R-Y.com. So I do want to talk about devs episode three. You have broken Allison Pills rule.

You have used the technology to look at. forward rather than backwards, right? So you know a little bit more than the rest of us. I only watched, and I promise I'm not going to spoil anything because I think three is a really good episode, so I'll just say no spoilers, yes, but I only went one ahead of you so far.

So I'm going to come at it from a different angle. So I had some problems with episode three. I did not enjoy it as much. And again, I think everything we talk about obviously should be filtered through the context of the world. Like, was I feeling like escaping into something that was excruciatingly tense?

when I watched it yesterday. I'm not sure that I was. So that's the caveat. But it did cause me to bump a little bit more than I had on the first two episodes, even though it was still shot through with that same beauty and mystery that made me fall in love with the show,

particularly the beginning. This show is not getting a negative rating from me in week three because the first few minutes are everything that I want from it. The technology, or whatever we're calling, at the tech, whatever they're doing in devs. Yeah.

Is so creepy and evocative and alive. It feels almost dangerous as an idea for... Yeah. I don't mean, it's dangerous within the world of the show, and certainly if we had it as well, but it feels dangerous as art. There's something about it. It feels electric and alive,

and it feels like Alex Garland took this, and then like rubbed a lot of like plastic playground equipment. That's another reference you won't get. And it's charged with static electricity. And he has to put it out somewhere. You know what I mean? It's, it's one of those ideas. I'm familiar with static electricity.

Yeah. But it's really prevalent on the playgrounds of Los Angeles. Because whatever material they use. Your child comes down that slide having a blast. You are going to treat them like fucking classic Kirby Lee era magneto. It is intense. Anyway. So, okay.

So we take that idea. the idea of being able to model the past or potentially the future, a great sci-fi concept. Put it through the aesthetic filter that Garland and his production designer and everyone else involved in the show use to have it tuned in

like one of, like a, like one of those, trying to think like those things that's sharper image with the magnets. Antenna's? No, no, not like antenna, but it looks like, oh no, do you remember those weird, like,

pushpin things that they had a sharp image. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you would create like a little image. Yeah, for sure. Like your hand or your face like that. We should never do those things, by the way. There should be outlawed in the new era. But, but I'm saying like that for it to be to look like that and have that crackle

of like weird radio. There's something really just viscerally powerful about this. Like, oh, that's really Joan of Arc being burned alive. And we're watching it like we're on a like a, like a. an old tube television from the 50s. And then to have that scene where the elderly fell, I don't remember the character's names,

Stuart, I think, and the kid. The kid's wearing a primis shirt, by the way. Lyndon is the kid, right? Yeah. Just chef's kiss emoji that he's wearing a primus shirt. Are tuning into Marilyn Monroe and Arthur Miller having sex.

This is the kind of weirdly hyper-specific, disconcerting detail that to me a show like Westworld, which is all details, you know, and slaved over plot points and mysteries, never will land on.

And for that, it's less magical. Yeah, I think that the key word that you just said is mystery because you and I are obviously very big fans of the mystery genre, but a lot of the times...

And fans of Arthur Miller and his sex life. Yeah, I mean, look. There's no good way out of this. There's no good way. you kind of backed me into a corner there. But my point was more that, like, it's useful to compare what they're doing in Westworld

and what they're doing in devs. Westworld is asking superficially really big questions, but getting so lost in its own sauce that it's only about withholding things from the audience and then finally revealing them. And essentially, creating a board game that audiences on differing levels can play on, which since the entire premise of that show

is that Westworld that, like, you play the game when you go there and that you're trying to get to the center of the maze and then you're trying to get to the forge or whatever happens in season two. I get it. It's a lot of it is the construction of video game logic. But devs, we already know pretty much what they've built.

What we don't know is how it's changed the character's perception of reality and how it's driving their decisions. So that's the thing that's so amazing about. this is like, okay, he built the receiver. He built the great transmitter that can see forwards, presumably, and backwards. If he can see backwards, I imagine that they're trying to do predictive analysis and stuff like that. What does that mean? And what does that mean ethically, morally across the board? And how does that fit into the central who done it and why

they do it of the show. And that's the thing. Even the murder that we're investigating that Lily is investigating, if she quickly finds out that she's not wrong, that it's not simply what it appears to be. But her question is why. It's not who, it's why.

And I think why is a question that's missing from Westworld and missing from a lot of mystery box TV and films. And Garland is actually much more interested in the profound questions of the why. And even if it's impossible really to answer that, he grapples with it.

I agree. And I think that that's also why the other two pieces of criticism that I have for this episode, I want to make more measured, because it's, we don't specifically know the question he's asking, or the question that fully interests him yet. We are three episodes in. There are a bunch more to go. And so clearly, like with any, I shouldn't even say auteur-driven show. I mean, any show is driven by the things that interests.

the person driving the bus. You know, that's just the nature of it. And often, if you are interested in other things, you might want to, you know, bang on the taxi window driver glass and be like, no, no, stop here, stop here. But you kind of have to give in and accept where you're going. That said, it's hard for me. And so I did want to point out two things that I bumped on with the episode. One, maybe I'll do them in the reverse order that I intended to because this one speaks

more to what you're saying about the way the story is told on devs and also the questions that motivate it. The one thing that I find to be interesting, and hopefully it will be resolved in it more clearly over the next few episodes, as we learn about what the show wants to be, as opposed to what it is, which I think it's done a great job of presenting to us. It's chosen a very difficult track for exposition, which is to say, it told us everything that happened to Sergey right away, thus putting our nominal protagonist behind of the audience. Yes.

We, the audience, knew what happened to Sergey truly before Lily did. We talked about this a little bit with outsider as well. That's right. So immediately, our protagonist is at a disadvantage in terms of our empathy for her. Because even if we try not to, even if we feel for her and the suffering that she's experiencing and the eight ball that she's up against, or behind is the better analogy, she's also dumber than we are on a crucial point, which sometimes makes it harder to feel connected.

Then in this episode, I think the goal was to show that Lily's smarter than we think she is in the way that she sort of works over Kenton with her friend and get some information, or at least gets access to the tape in order to advance the investigation. That also was stepped on in a way that, surprised me because the camera kept cutting to, and what's Lily's friend's name? I forget. The friend who helped her with this.

Oh, the friend who goes into the meeting with Kenton with her. Yes. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Not Jamie, but her female friend. Yeah, so when she goes straight to her superior, the blonde woman, and it's just like, I have concerns, I have concerns. Of course, because we're ahead of her,

we're like, no, no, don't do that. You're making yet another mistake, Lily. but then it cut to the friend watching them to let us know that there's something else going on. Yeah. Similarly, she has this panic attack and she's losing it and she's flipping out and we're like, oh, it's going to be homeland.

I mean, she's another one of these protagonists. Right. Just when she gets on the ledge with Kenton, it cut to the friend doing the business, thus stepping on the tension that it had built already. You know what I mean? It was sort of the show is constantly, much like the machine,

if you'll forgive the analogy, showing us forwards and backwards in every moment, which so far, at least in this episode, the balance was off for me because it was kind of stepping on the drama and the tension. But I do think that in the spirit of what you were saying, this isn't that show, you know? This is clearly not what interests Alex Garland

in the same degree that it might interest others. And so it's probably foolish to be like nitpicking this stuff when there's a larger story to be told. Other thing, got to say, the one thing that I think that he might be learning as he transitions from movies to TV is that in a movie that sort of Senator Kamala Harris' character...

Yes. Yeah. You could probably get Regina King or Viola Davis for it. And no disrespect to the actor who played the part because it was clearly a day player, the power dynamic in the conversation with Nick Offerman

was imbalanced. I did not think of her as a real threat to him in any way whatsoever. No, she's an emissary to let us know that Nick Offerman, what he's doing has got practical applications and perhaps even entanglements

with defense, with military, but also that we are in kind of our world because it mentions Twitter and Facebook and all these other social media platforms. And so ultimately that delivered exactly, as you said, a lot of exposition and context, but I kind of wanted it to like snap

and crackle, right? Because you kind of wanted, because Offerman is killing it. This is so, it's, the show is so brilliant in the casting of Offerman, who's such a phenomenal performer, and it doesn't do drama very often, even though I think he began just doing stage stuff in Chicago and was not necessarily Mr. Sitcom guy.

No, I mean, you know, and it's interesting, you can see Garland's affection for the cast, and he's talked about wanting to do another show essentially with this group of actors in different roles. So obviously he thinks he's found something really special with this particular group. Yeah, I mean, I think that this was a little bit more. We talked about this with, I think, episode four of Saul,

where it's just kind of, it's more of a, like, a connective tissue episode. It's more of a like advancing the ball, you know, converting a third down rather than going for a touchdown. But that's like, that's how TV works sometimes. Yeah, and I know I'm obsessed with the statue. I don't know when I'm ever not going to be obsessed with the statue. I mean, the shot looking up at its,

demonic smile from the spot where they set Sergey on fire is just so haunting. Yeah. I mean, it feels, I don't know, this is something that I always would fall into when I was actually, you know, writing TV criticism as opposed to kind of moonlighting on it like I'm doing now. But there are overlaps, obviously, between the show that's produced for us to talk about and the spirit of the story within it. And it does feel, I feel like the senator being like, what practical applications are you going to predict the weather when this show is trying to show me God?

Yeah. Okay, man, so why don't we wrap up the pod there since I think we covered a lot of stuff? Obviously, everybody should watch Breyer Patch tonight at 11 o'clock after wrestling on USA and they can catch up with that season. What's the best way to catch up? I mean, pick them. If you have cable, you can watch on demand through your cable provider. You can watch the USA app on your Apple TV.

You can go to USA Network.com or you can buy the episodes on Apple or Amazon and just have a season pass. I hope people check it out tonight. This is a wild one. And I hope people enjoy it. It hopefully can provide some necessary distraction. And what are we going to be talking about on Thursday?

I'm sure we'll talk about the fifth episode of Better Call Saul, which airs tonight. Yeah, we've got Better Call Saul. We've got Breyer Patch. We've got, I'm sure, you know, people are dying to hear my opinion on Princess Diary. too, a royal engagement. And whatever else we're watching. I mean, missives from the front lines, things that are out there, news that's happening. If there's any other ways we can be service-y to

people, we would love to do it. Obviously, we've done a lot of book recommendations in the past through our Double Down Book Club. We've watched a lot of stuff. We've talked a lot of stuff. Yeah, maybe we'll do that on Thursday. Also, we could probably check out, we could check out plot against America, too. Oh, yeah, that seems, boy, that'll be a real, that's some real escapism. Can't wait. David Simon, take me away. All right, Andy, thank you so much for today. And we'll talk to you on Thursday.

Everybody stay safe out there. It's good to hear your voice. Guys, stay in touch with each other. Keep talking to your friends like Chris and I just did. And we're going to get through this. Isn't that right, Branskees? Have a good rest of your Monday. Bye, guys.

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