The Watch - How to Cast for ‘The Wire,’ ‘Atlanta,’ and ‘True Detective’ With Alexa Fogel | The Watch (Ep. 241)

Episode Date: April 6, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the premiere of the upcoming shows ‘Killing Eve’ (3:00) and ’Legion” (8:30) before sitting down with casting director Alexa Fogel, who’s had a hand in major television shows like ‘The Wire,’ ‘Atlanta,’ and ‘True Detective’ (16:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Hotel Tonight. Time to talk about Hotel Tonight. Hotel Tonight partners with awesome hotels to help them sell their unsold rooms, which means you get amazing deals. All it takes is 10 seconds, just three taps and a swipe to book. No long endless lists of a zillion hotel choices. Hotel Tonight only shows you the best deals at the best hotels. For whether you are a planner or like to leave things for the very last minute,

and with Hotel Tonight's H.T. Perks program, the more you book, the better the deals get. So start scoring amazing deals at incredible hotels and download the Hotel Tonight app now. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I'm Netater at Thuringer.com, and joining me in the studio, he just announced his premiere at Cannes. It's Andy Greenwald! What a day for both me and the troubled production of Solo, A Star Wars Story. Can't be troubled if you're premiering at Cannes.

Can I just say, solo premiering at Cannes is a little bit like debuting the new craft macaroni and cheese at Noma. Only because macaroni and cheese is great. You don't know that. That's the wrong place for it. What if solo is foraged ingredients, son?

Oh, right. It's hand harvested with sea buckthorn. Yeah. What if all the sorrel is in there? Yeah, that's Ron Howard's vibe. Wow. Big Newsday. Lots to talk about.

Andy, sort of a truncated show for you and I and the riffage that we are best known for. We're going to talk a little bit about a new show that's coming out on Sunday that we're really excited about called Killing Eve on BBC America. You're also going to talk a little bit about the new season of Legion. And then we have our interview with Alexa Fogel, the casting director for Atlanta, for the Wire, for the Deuce, for Oz. I thought you weren't going to say Oz. For NYPD Blue she worked on. Alexa was so gracious to give us some of her time a couple weeks ago.

We recorded this interview prior to, and nor have either of us seen at the time of her. recording what is shaping up to be some, I would imagine, a pretty special episode of Atlanta tonight. FX is broadcasting it the entire 41-a-minute episode without commercial interruption this evening. So I'm sure people will be talking about tomorrow. We just didn't get a chance to you go. We spoke to Alexa right after the, two weeks ago. So the episode after it was called Helen. Yeah. Right. And well, we'll talk more about that interview right before we set it up. Yeah. So, uh, not a lot to go through. Like we said, uh, solo is going to can, but, you know. Sure. Sure. Great. I'm sure it'll be good.

I actually am still I still hold my solo stock. I think it's, you know, are you shorting it? No, I'm holding onto it. Like, while it's in distress, I am holding on to it. I have a new thing I'm doing with pop culture things. We're just going to have your take on it and then just clutch a hold on to it. It's basically the Markell false theory of stock options. Basically, there are certain things that are distressed.

Yeah. But that costs you nothing to be holding on to. To be a fan of. Yeah. Like, it costs me nothing to believe. in Markell Fultz. Can I just... So when he comes back,

I get tweets being people like, you're the only one who still believed in him. I'm like, it didn't cost me anything to believe in it. So I still believe in solo. Yeah.

It's not going to cost me anything if it's bad. If it's good, everybody's like, man, Chris Ryan, soothsayer. I love your enthusiasm and your positivity.

I want to push back a little on the idea that it doesn't cost you anything because loving Markele Fultz cost you four weeks of Joelle Mbid. Because his... That was fluke.

It was a fluke. His face bone would still be intact if it wasn't for the young prince's head. Yeah, I guess there's a little bit of like a butterfly flaps its wings element to it. Anyway, I'm excited for that. We're also excited about this show Killing Eve from, I would say, I'm pretty sure Phoebe Wallerbridge is on the wall. Yeah, I think she was on the wall two years ago. Yeah. So one of our favorites, Phoebe Waller Bridge, is back with a new show that she's not in.

No. She wrote it for BBC America, and it stars Sandra O. It's called Killing Eve. And it kind of has, if you, so I would say recommended if you like End of the Fucking World, has some of that sort of dark, pretty violent sense of humor. Boy, is it well directed in a rhythmic way that reminded me of End of the Fucking World. I agree with you on that. And I would say that I very much liked the premiere episode, which is coming on Sunday.

so we very much recommend people to do it. I think you liked it a little bit more than me, but what I would say is that it does do what the best crime fiction does, which is it's not really about crime. This show, to me, is about boredom, and it's about sort of looking for a purpose in a very, very funny way,

and Sandra O is absolutely dynamite in it. What did you think of the show? I love the show. I'm really excited about the show. I think people should check out Alison Herman's piece about it on The Ringer. I think she really articulates what's great about Phoebe Wallerbridge's writing,

as well as what's particularly unique about the show, which is that, yes, it's about all those things that we enjoy. It's hilarious. It's violent. We should say what it's about, I guess. It's violent. It's surprising. It is about Sandra O.

playing a MI5 analyst in London, who is basically drawn into a game of cat and mouse with a female assassin who is doing all sorts of dramatic things across mainland Europe. She's played by Jody Comer, or Cumber. I actually don't know how to say her name, but I'm just going to take a... I'm going to say Comer for now,

who's also spectacular. It is a deeply female show in its sensibilities and its writing, obviously in its performances, and generally actually largely in its cast, although homie from four weddings and a funeral has a great, great, great look in this show as Sandra was put upon boss.

And I just found this show deeply satisfying and truly surprising in a way that TV often isn't. And I think Phoebe Wallerbridge is maybe the most exciting writer on television. I'm still Izzy Stevens clan for life when it comes to Grey's Anatomy. But Christine Yang is right up there for me. So it's really great to see Sandra O get this look. Sandra O is terrific.

Give me, what's your Gray's power rankings for doctors? Who's the dude who got hit by a bus? George. Yeah. That's my dude. Because you most feel like him today? No. You know, actually, you know who kind of got the bad?

Don't say Alex. I'm not, okay, okay. Look, I'm just saying. You like Alex? He was overlooked. I felt like in the early seasons that was a thankless role. There's no way that guy is a doctor. Of course.

Do you think McSteamy is it past his medical boards? He actually was good at a part of doctoring. Alex was like, oh man, I put the tube in wrong. I'm so stupid. Have you ever been to an emergency room in New York City? No, actually. That guy literally intubated me when I went in for a just like a hang nail, okay? Like, that was super real to me.

I actually don't have a good answer. He's like, the passageway is closed and you're like, yeah, it's because my mouth's not open. I can help you with that, sir. I actually, maybe this is kind of a cheap out answer, but like, you know, like the Beatles or something. I just like the original gang. Yeah. You know, that was such a great cast. I'm not here for what's his name who died in train spotting.

Like, handsome guy. Oh, Kevin McKidd. Yeah, right. Owen. Owen. Yeah. Trauma surgeon. Yo. Sometimes.

What if you were a trauma surgeon? Me? But like, you didn't... I have the temperament for it. I think you do. I don't have the attention to detail, though. No, I'm saying, like, what if you just... And I...

Actually, there may have been a period in, like, 2006 when you did do this, but, like, just introduced yourself as a trauma surgeon. You had none of the credentials. As, like, just sort of like, the game, like Neil Strausset. Just tell people if that's what you do. Big fan of Grace Anatomy. Yeah. Also, and...

Wait, why are we talking about Grace Anatomy? Because of Sandra. Oh. Oh. She's good. Yeah. She's great. Watch this show.

We'll talk more about it in detail. Izzy Stevens, man. Catherine Hegel. Is that, speaking of distressed assets, do you still? Do I still believe in Izzy? Yeah. Hegel will rise again. From the ashes of the burn bag.

Yeah. That we last threw her into, thanks to State of Play? I had a lot of fun checking out. Catherine Heigle has like a very, like, 2006 era like blog where she just has like long videos about like what she should do. with like her study interior design-wise? Is this true?

Yeah, it's like a lifestyle blog. It's pretty good. This is happening now? Oh yeah, I'll show it to you after we've done. So Killing Eve. Killing Eve. Guys, BBC America on Sunday,

I know you might not have room in your busy calendar, but give the show a shot. It was worth it. It got renewed for a second season ahead of its premiere, which is interesting. I would even say if you like Barry,

check out Killing Eve. You could make a nice partner show. A night of assassinating. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about Legion. Oh, yeah. So a lot of questions coming at us. And a pretty simple answer.

No, I did not work on Season 2 of Legion. I did. Weirdly, Chris did. I'm really happy. Thanks for sending me up here. I have taken over Legion. What Chris brought to the show... In front of the camera, more than behind, but yeah.

What Chris brought to the show was the sort of steely resolve and precision of a trauma surgeon. And also, he suggested that the boss be a guy with his head in a basket. Yeah. No, I did not work on the show. No ill will or hard feelings. The people who did work on the show are terrifically talented, and I'm very excited. and I'm very excited to see what they came up with. We haven't really mentioned it or covered it

only because I still feel a little bit too close to it. I was there during some of the writing of the first season and credited on the first season. And it just felt a little strange to be coming back at the show critically, whether pro or con, but I will say that having seen some of the first episodes that it's very gratifying to see that there is simply nothing else on TV like the show, visually,

creatively, it's just still firing on a lot of cylinders and shouts to Nathaniel Halpern, who is doing a lot of the writing this year and shouts a no, of course. And I'm glad people are enjoying it, but I can't help you, man. People were saying, like, can you explain this? Listen, I couldn't explain it when I worked on the show.

That's like the whole, you know, Faulkner calling Raymond Chandler and being like, what happens at the end of the big sleep? And Chandler's like, I don't know. Chandler said, who is this? Yeah. Just to get into Lexa Fogel, Andy and I have a tendency to obviously

probably overvalorize the writing and show running of television shows. And that narrative is... We're not alone in that. And we're not alone in that. That is the narrative that has kind of risen out of this post-Colden age and peak TV

that showrunners are the otors of these television shows. And then when we're not talking about showrunners or writers, we have a tendency to be talking about directors, whether it's Michelle McLaren or Carrie Fukenaga or Steven Soderberg or whoever happens

to be doing, Miguel Sipachshnich, Reed Morano, like all these people we have a tendency to talk about... S. J. Clarkson. Sorry, now we're just naming directors. S. S. Yeah. So many people.

people go into making television shows. And so many people can have their signature on a television show and you don't even know it because they don't get talked enough about. And that's one of the major reasons why we wanted to have Alexa Fogel on the watch is because in a lot of ways, Alexa Fogle has as much to do with some of our favorite television shows as any of the other people we've ever publicly associated with them, be it the Wire and David Simon, be it Ozark and Jason Bateman. We have a we have a shorthand to say, nice job by this person when in fact it's tons of people, and Alexa has this huge role in creating your relationship, and I mean the Royal You, a relationship with some of these shows,

because she's the person who's going out there and finding the faces and finding the personalities of the actors who are going to fill these roles that become iconic, the Omar Littles, the, you know, all these people that we are so, you know, paper boys, paper boys that were so connected to. She sees them early, early in the game, and she was a fascinating person. to talk to. I think a hallmark of an Alexa Fogel show is that you don't notice her work

because it feels effortless. The characters you mentioned, the characters that populate these shows, even up to including the Deuce, which she worked on, of course, and which we mentioned in our conversation with her, these are shows populated by people that do not feel fictional. They do not feel like performances. Even when they are actors we've seen

before, they inhabit these roles and they just become them in a way that is transporting, I would argue that if you went through your mental rolodex of shows that you consider to have the best ensembles or the best performances, she would be credited for a lot of them. But also, it was just usually exciting for us to have a conversation with someone who works so intently

on a part of the industry that we give short shrift to. I would also say that Alexa, not only was very generous with her time, as she was with our friend Jonathan Abrams and her contributions to his All the Pieces Matter book about the Wire, she followed up with a very kind and very pointed email suggesting that maybe we sometimes mispronounce people's names.

It's a fair cop. It's a fair cop. And so thanks to her, not in time for this interview. I don't know if I mention it, but apparently it's Frank Langella. I've always kind of hemmed or hawed it, but it's Langella. Okay. And there are a couple. I don't know what you're talking about.

I have a tendency. I think my hit rate on pronouncing names is pretty high. So just know that I think she basically has volunteered to be the umbuds woman for pronunciation of this podcast going forward. I hope to have Alexa on again. Just a quick housekeeping note. Next week, I will be on the East Coast. So I won't be here doing shows. We'll have a show on Monday that will feature an interview that I did this week with a really cool filmmaker named Brian Koo.

I know him. He just has a – he had a film come out on Netflix on Friday. So when you listen to this, it'll be on like Thursday at midnight. But it'll be out this weekend. You should definitely check it out. It's called Amateur. It is about the world of prep school basketball. and it stars Michael Rainey Jr. from Power as this 14-year-old phenom who has a basketball clip go viral on the internet.

And there's like a sort of a land grab to get his services at these various prep schools and stuff. And his father and his mother have different ideas about who he should be. And then Josh Charles plays a basketball coach. It's a really, really cool movie. It's just like something I know Ryan's been working on for seven years now. So it's finally coming out. And so you can hear our interview with Ryan Koo on Monday. You should check out amateur over the weekend.

We will also have our mailbag episode next Thursday. Thanks for the questions. And Andy will be joined by Person X on Monday to talk to you about the world of pop culture. Person X is great, by the way. Yeah. So until then, we'll take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. And when we come back, Alexa Fogle. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the big homies at Thomas's English muffins.

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Well, Andy, now we are joined by someone we're so excited to have on. It's Alexa Fogel. Probably one of the most important casting directors in, I would say, the history of television? Is that fair to say? In our history of television? Show after show that we love. We could run through the IMD, but if you've heard us talk about television over the last six years, whether it's a Hollywood prospectus or with the watch,

you have heard us talk about Alexa's work, even if we didn't always know it. The list of shows that she is cast is almost too long to mention, but even just some of the hits, Atlanta, I can't scream it because I don't want to embarrass myself, but Ozark, the Mist, Banshee, show me a hero, multiple collaborations with David Simon, true detective. Including the wire.

Yeah, including the wire, including Tremay. In treatment, the list goes on on. Only the second season. season of him treatment. Because the first season was cast very poorly. I can say that. You can't. All the way back to NYPD Blue, we're so, so happy to be joined by Alexa Fogle. Thank you for coming in. Thank you for having me. So we wanted to start specifically with Atlanta because it's on right now. And obviously we love it. And one of the reasons we're so excited to have you here is not just to talk about Atlanta, but to talk about the work that you do, which is too often not appreciated, but very often not understood.

So I wanted to talk specifically about Atlanta because this past week's episode, it was the fourth episode of the season. And it's the one where they go to the German village party. Specifically, it's a showcase for Zazzi Beats, who is incredible in the episode. And one of the breakout stars of TV from the last few years, in my opinion. This is a long runway because you may tell me that, oh, she came with the package before you were associated with the show. But I wanted to use her maybe as a way into discussing what you do and how you do. do it because she's so incredible. I'd never seen her before and now look what she's doing week to week on the best show on television. I think, you know, there, when you talk about the

process of casting and the way that I work, I think you're also talking about writing. And I'm really fortunate because I work with wonderful writers. In Zazzi's case, interestingly, she had just been cast in a recurring role on the deuce when we were doing the auditions for Atlanta, which she obviously didn't end up doing. But I think, again, you know, that process is something, I'm a huge believer in process. You never read a script and think of somebody

and have that be the outcome. It doesn't work that way. It really is about Donald's writing, us all being in the room, bringing people and doing the work. And that is what happened. You know, we got down to a couple people, both wonderful actresses. And it's the alchemy.

And, you know, Zazi was doing, this almost didn't work out. She was doing a small independent film. They were in there last week. They had a location that couldn't be moved. And it was the week we were shooting Atlanta. And it was very, very touch and go, like last minute, hysterical conversations. And I think we, and we, and we. ended up moving our schedule by a couple days so that she could do Atlanta.

Okay. You know, it's that moment when an actor has been working really hard to try and get to a place. They have no money. You know, you have no idea what's going to happen with the show. It's on the page a little bit unusual. And, you know, then the rest is history. What do you see in someone that makes you think of them for the next thing? Because I've heard when I talk to actors, they will say not that a director remembered them or saw them,

but it was the casting director who saw them multiple times, who maybe cast them in a guest spot, but kept them in mind. There was always something that the casting director saw that then when the slot opened, they were able to fit them in that slot. So when you talk about Zazi or any other of the many people you've cast, what made you think she can do the deuce, she can do this? Well, part of our job is to understand the whole body of work. It's not to think in the...

sort of narrow terms. You know, a director is thinking about that piece only. Right. And we're thinking about the whole career, the whole body of work. And I say this all the time because, you know, an actor coming in and doing a good audition and not being quite right for that part, it all goes into this computer that is meant to work over a decade or more. Do you mean an actual computer or your mind? No, my mind. That's what I thought. Yeah. You know, so, so that good audition, when you don't get the role is still serving a purpose because this is a long game. Yeah. You know, and I think Jonathan Abrams told the story when he was here. It's a more sort of sexy famous one, but,

you know, Michael K. Williams had auditioned for Oz and not gotten it. And I remembered him and, you know, that is a sexier version of that in terms of him getting the wire. But, but the job is to understand, you know, the qualities that an actor has that may be right for lots of different kinds of things because it's an instrument that does more than one thing. Yeah. And also how it changes over years because actors do change. They mature and they grow into different kinds of things that they can do emotionally that they couldn't do when they were 25.

You know, you can't play certain kinds of roles when you just get out of school. Yeah. I think one of the things I find fascinating about what you do is how it's also representative of the entire production process, whether it's for television or films, but specifically here for television, and how little we really understand about it when we're talking about these things. And even when we casually refer to somebody dropping out of a role or somebody was rumored to be doing this, but now is not and it's going to be doing something else, it sounds like what you have to do is balance the art and the craft of it. And you're obviously

seeing someone who you think is right for the soul of this character and is like going to bring this character to life. But all this stuff with like, well, they're going to be. filming something else somewhere else at this time and can we make this happen? And it's almost, you're basically a producer as well in a lot of ways because you have to keep your eye on all this other stuff. You can't be fully in love with this because it could fall apart and then you have to come fix it, right? I mean, it's constantly moving. Well, there are a lot of practical and administrative components to this. There's no question about it. You have to do a lot of things at the same time. There are times when it

feels as though if it doesn't work out, you know, life will never be the same. There are jobs like that and there are roles like that where you can't cast it. It's just not happening. And then finally something the dime drops with the right person. Can you think of what it was particular where you felt like that? For me? Yeah. It took for a long time to cast or seemed impossible. The role that Alexander Scarscard played in Generation Kill. Oh wow. That came very down to the wire. It was an impossibly difficult role because the character talked all the time. And it's based on a real person, as all of those guys were. And every casting director experiences this.

Not on every project, but on some projects. There is a role that when you see it on your audition sheet, you're filled with dread. Because you read it with the actors. You've read it so many times that even the actors are good. They're doing their best. But it's not fulfilling itself the way the page is asking it to. And you're going to have to do it again. And it's going to feel at the hundredth time like time is standing still for you.

Right. And so even though you're entirely present, you're there with the actor. every time you're rooting for them every single time. But in that case, when Alex auditioned many, many times, this didn't happen instantly. It was over the course of time. But the first time he came in, I heard it in a way I had never heard it before. I understood the language. I understood what the character was saying. It just made sense. Do you remember having to see,

were there a lot of other people that you were seeing for that role, or was it always Alex, but it was about, like, getting it to him? No, no, no. Nobody knew who he was. Right. At all.

And this was the first David Simon project after The Wire, I think, right? We were still doing the wire. Oh, wow. I was doing them at the same time. Okay. When you see then Alexander Scarsgaard on stage of the Golden Globes,

what sort of feeling do you have about seeing this person that you saw at a very delicate moment in their career? I mean, it's a very, yeah, it's very emotional. I mean, that's a very, we both went through so much over the course of, you know, a month and a half, two months on the road to him getting that role. It's that you form with some actors, it's a very intimate kind of friendship because you have no skin in the game. You know, I don't get a percentage of anything. It's all about serving the peace.

And also, in some cases, in the Wire, Generation Kill, those jobs were as meaningful for me as they were for the cast. Yeah. So, yeah, it's very, it's very moving. David Simon, obviously, we were talking about him because we've mentioned a number of his shows. Famously, infamously, strong-willed, very opinionated guy. as I imagine, honestly, most creators are in these very tense moments when they need to have something realized as they have it in their head and they're looking to you to help them accomplish that.

How do you, and we can talk specifically about David just because I keep saying his name, how do you negotiate that relationship where he knows what he wants? Sometimes you might know better or you might suggest something different. How do you manage those relationships in the micro of each particular role in order to maintain the macro if you've worked with him again and again and you've learned to try. each other. This is a totally collaborative relationship and process. The David Simon on Twitter is not the David Simon of our... So he has a first into a room and say

you have to read this piece in the Atlantic. No. No, absolutely not. I mean, we all have respect for each other in terms of what our areas of expertise are. I mean, I don't think I started following David on Twitter right away.

He must have taken that very personally. No, no. I don't think he even knows that that I do. Okay. But occasionally, I will sort of go to Nina Noble and say, is there a reason why I don't have a script? Because it's very busy.

You should work at the rear. That happens all the time. When you see them on homework, you'll be like, where's this piece? And then you see the person's on the 13th Black Panther tweet, you know? No, I mean, those,

we all work very well together. I mean, it's not, there's no sort of, you must do this this way. This is what I'm looking for. Let me reframe the question then, because one of the things that makes his shows so exceptional, his project so exceptional, is there's a level of versimilitude, or at least to the audience's eye, in the casting and in the performance. He cast, you cast together, people in the wire who had never acted before, who people who, I'd imagine, you can stop me on that. most of the people you're talking about like that, I didn't cast. The Baltimore casting director did. Okay.

So you were casting. Okay. So you cast people. I mean, we worked together. But people who had to be plausible then. Yeah. I mean, what I would say is that we all understand and agree that in most of the,

and we did this with Show Me a Hero too. In most of the pieces, and to some degree, the deuce, but slightly less so. You know, in order to be authentic, there are certain roles in which you can, use people who bring something because you don't need them to do much in terms of carrying an arc or telling the story in a certain way. And I can tell a difference between what's required because I know how much acting is needed and authenticity is something that we're all very clear about and very focused on. And all those worlds need to be completely real, whatever worlds they are, whether it's recon marines or, you know, the streets of Baltimore or whatever's next.

But, you know, the word, nothing is improvised, but it's all very well written. So when I'm in the audition room, it falls fairly trippingly off the tongue. Right. And that tends to be true of all good writing. One more about the David Simon verse. Sure. I see to you in the Ozarks, because I never dying to ask about that. But twice now, probably more, but just off the top of my head, you've cast British actors on David Simon projects who, like Idriselba I'm thinking of, and then on the deuce, my goodness, Gary. Gary Carr.

Gary Carr. Who, from the moment they come on screen, they are electric and they are incredible and charismatic. And my first thought is, who are these people? And my second thought is, why aren't they already the biggest star in the world? And they slip into this. Can you talk about finding those two actors in particular? or maybe how that speaks to what your job is in general, because they're large,

they seem bigger than the world already when they step into it and it's wonderful. Well, Idris was living in New York at that time, and he had auditioned for a film I was doing, a feature I was doing, and not gotten it right during 9-11, right before I did The Wire. And I was really irritated that he hadn't gotten that.

Because I think he had recently done, play off Broadway I mean you know it wasn't complicated the thing is when you do what I do

it's pretty straightforward he was a wonderful actor and I heard him tell this story actually and I had forgotten about it about I don't think I've ever done this before or since that I told him

not to let them hear his British accent and I think the reason I must have done it is because it had to have had an effect on him not getting the feature okay But I heard him tell that story on NPR when I was driving back from me.

Did he tell it in a British accent or was he still hiding? No, he told it in a British accent. Terry Gross gets the real British accent. She can handle it. So he was in New York and I saw a lot of people for The Wire and he was great. And I also think because that that character had to play a lot of different sides of, you know, he was trying to improve himself in one way and be a businessman, and he was also coming from a different, you know,

dealing with Barksdale and all of that stuff. So it just suited him. In terms of Gary, I've spent a lot of time working in the UK. I tend to cast a wide net when it comes to certain kinds of characters anyway. And he's someone that I knew already. I knew that for the pimps in the dune, I was going to have to find people that had a certain kind of dexterity when it came to language. And some rappers in the mix as well.

Singers, Taree, Trotter. That's right. That role was very hard to cast because he, yeah, it was great. And I was incredibly focused on him for that part because those monologues about Vietnam and all that stuff, you know, it's a lot. And, but Gary also is a musician and his British agent is someone I've known for a long, long time. And, you know, we would talk from time to time about looking for something for him. And again, you know, it's about the audition process. The process is really important.

Yeah. And if they don't get there quite in the beginning, then we can work on it and see if they get there. You know, there's a lot of stuff that happens before David and George and Nina see people too. Yeah. And then we get in the room and do it all together. What happens when it's something like true to jure? detective, or Rosark, but specifically true detective, where the two leads are, I would imagine. So, like, with that, is that something that it's brought to you, and Matthew and Woody are a part of it already?

That's the package that went out and sold. And you're casting against that already. Is there advantages to that? Is there disadvantages to that? Instead of doing top down all the way. It's the only time I've really done that. Oh, okay. So advantages, I mean, you know, you don't have to cast the leads.

Yeah, that's right. But I guess that those two guys set the tone for the show in a way that, that would be completely different if it had been, you know, if it had been Jason Bateman and somebody else playing those guys. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Is there something that for us, you know, not, we're not part of the process. It is not a job for us.

So we tend to, we can use sort of airier words like, you know, they're genuine in the role. It's believable. All these sort of criticy words that we use when we talk about generally your projects. These people in Atlanta this season, the guy who plays Tracy. I mean, I don't know where he came from other than to play this role. And when he appears, it's just like, well, this guy's always been in that house. It makes perfect sense.

Stealing mall cards. Do you have your own internal, professional language to describe these qualities that we are talking about? And how do you know it when you see it? You know, I wouldn't say that I see it the way that you see it. I would say that I have a lot of faith in what actors can do, particularly. and I'm not confining it to this, but particularly actors who are trained

as he is, he's a theater actor. You have to give them a chance to try other things that you just have to keep it really wide. I mean, I actually had a conversation with his manager the other day who was thanking me. I was talking to her

about something else because I think she's surprised too. But certain kinds of theater actors can do a whole lot of things that people like you guys don't know about. Yeah. Like Brian Tyree Henry also on stage in Book of Mormon

and then I think giving the best performance week to week on television full stop as Paperboy. But I understand what those muscles are because I studied to be a theater director. You know, I understand what all those weird theater games are so I know what those muscles are. Yeah.

So sometimes it's just a question of thinking about, not thinking about comedy or comedic people, but thinking about, you know, what, giving them a chance to see what they bring. Without putting anyone on the spot. Like me? No, you. Sorry, everyone but you.

I'm off the clock. You're on the spot. But I'm wondering if you could tell us about a time when you really had to fight for someone and that you were probably right. Now, I don't want you to tell a story that puts a director in the bad light unless you, or the showrunner or whatever, unless you've already talked about this and they're comfortable being like, no, Alexa was right on this one? I don't think there's anything that cut and dry.

I would say it's just there are times when the process itself gets stressful, you know, and it can have to do with a lot of different things. It can have to do with the time that's left or the amount of people in the conversation. You know, the Alex Garsigard thing was really stressful because this was a, about an American Marine who was alive. He's Swedish. It was a British production with a British director, a Scottish producer,

an American casting director. The person who was the head of HBO was British. So the conversations were very hard. But everybody's heart was in the right place. Right. So it wasn't... People weren't wrong. They were advocating for their position.

Well, or they were trying to figure out, you know, if we could do this. You know, I knew what I saw. I knew, I also, this is going to sound incredibly pretentious, but I am from a classical music family on my mother's side, and I have a very good ear. And I knew that his very slight Swedish S was not a problem because his syntax was all American. I don't know if it's because he traveled a lot with his dad

when he was a kid on movie sets, but his actual phrasing was not European. Right. So I knew, and I also knew who the best dialect coach was, so I wasn't worried about that. But if you don't know about that stuff, it can be scary. The element of music and all this that's come up twice now is really interesting. Well, it's sort of about rhythm, too.

Right. You know. I was curious about how, I mean, we often talk on the show about the changing landscape of television and especially just the volume of shows that are, on now. And I was wondering whether or not this sort of unprecedented time of production has had any adverse or advantageous impacts on like what you do. Just the amount of stuff that's being produced at any given moment. People having all these different commitments, I would imagine.

We were just joking around about seeing Glenn Fleschler on three or four different things at any given moment. And what that actually does to the viewer where you see him in Waco and you see him in Barry and you see him in two other things. And you're like, oh, there's that guy again. But is it, Is it harder or easier to do your job today than it was, say, five years ago? You know, my world hasn't changed so much. But I think in some ways it's probably better for some casting directors because there's more work. And in some ways, it's probably more difficult because I think that we are, this is very tricky. We have to fight very, very hard to be compensated.

to be, you know, taking care of, you know, within the whole productions. And I think that, you know, studios and it's just tough. I mean, that's, I'm not, not, I read something an interview you did back in 1999, I think right when you had sort of left ABC, right? I think we're a little after that. But you were taught, you were saying,

research. But you were saying the same thing about this idea that you're essentially packaging these shows for for these producers, for these networks, and not necessarily being treated as like the equal part of the production the way say an EP who just comes sort of in maybe puts their name on it does. I mean you have to sort of decide what's important to you. Yeah. And I had to decide that what was important to me was to work on great writing with people who respect me. Right. So I got to do that. But, you know, I think that if I had made a decision that I wanted to, you know, make a lot of money,

I would not have been able to make that decision. Yeah, sure. Who, there might not be a quick answer for this, but I'm hoping there is. Who that you cast in their first major role, who has surprised you the most about the career he or she has had? Not that you didn't think. Why? Because I didn't think they would do well.

No, because I imagine you can't think that about anyone that you cast. But I just more like, you, you know, you cast them in that job, They did a good job. Oh, my goodness, this person is now. I'm not surprised by any of it. Okay. That's what I, that's the very, on-mic answer. I think that every bit of success that, you know, Michael Jordan or Alex Garsgaard or Laura Linney, any of them.

Michael Jordan was a kid and you cast them to do this incredibly difficult. But I mean, I don't think about stardom. You know, I think about wonderful actors playing these great parts. And I know they're all going to have long careers because they're all good. Yes. Because if the writing is good, the people that are going to play those roles are never going to play just one part. That's just the reality. And so I expect that there will be some kind of success beyond if it's the first role.

Right. So if J.K. Simmons shows up and he's in Whiplash, you're just like, that's not a surprise at all. It's thrilling. Yeah. You know, the other thing that's fun about what I do and the people that I work with is, You know, J.K. was a song and dance man on Broadway, and Tom Fontana is a theater guy, too. He's in guys and dolls. Right.

Yeah. So, but that's what's great about working with someone like Tom, is that we get that. That, as I said, you know, it's a big instrument, meaning JK. Yeah. So, yeah, of course he can play that scary dude. Yeah. He can either lead or drag. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, I'm going to try one more time to get you to name a name, and then I'll back off. Who, is there someone? or story, not Alexander Scarsgaard, who you were really rooting for who you remembered for the longest time before the right opportunity presented itself for that actor to shine. I mean, that's a question you should have sent ahead of time.

Like, he was doing the research. I'm just improvving here. I'm sure there is somebody that I have had in mind for a long, long time that finally got a job, but it probably isn't somebody you know. Right. You know, it's probably someone, you have to understand that there are actors like John Bedford Lloyd, who I just saw when he came into audition for something and he's going to be in the next

season of Ozark, and I've known him in my audition room and in the waiting room for such a long time. He just told me he had his first grandchild. Oh, my gosh. It's those guys. This is the life of a casting director, too. We know these actors for decades. And it's a partnership.

That's the thing that people have to understand. It's not just about the Alexander Scarsgaards. It's about all of these people. It's about the whole casts. So I would say that, you know, and I have cast him on a few shows, but probably that would be a good example. a great one. When I think about the work you've done, I do think about the Tracy's. I don't remember I didn't even say the actor's name. I'm just saying the character. But like Dominique Fishback,

for example, who was so strong and show me a hero and then has this opportunity in the Deuce to build on the good work she's done and break out. And she's just terrific in it. And that takes the belief of not just someone, not just you, but of George and David Simon, to see, as you said, the arc of it. And then when we get to see that and take the time to notice that, I think, then the system is humming as it's supposed to be. I was kind of curious about working with actors multiple times in roles, like whether it's somebody like James Ransom or Michael K. And whether or not you're participating in, because his character, James Ransom's character in Generation Kill is different than his character in the while. Michael K. is different in Night of

than he is in the Wire. But you're still drawing... You know, I can cast the Night of. No, I know. I'm just saying like in terms of, of his like arc in different shows. Like, they are, like, how does it work when it comes to using somebody multiple times in shows, in different shows? And you're going back and you're saying, okay, I'm going to use this person in this way now. Do you, do you always have, like, their baseline skills that you're kind of thinking about?

Or do they come and do you see them evolve over time? And you're saying, okay, well, maybe this would be right for this person here. Well, I don't, I don't know. I mean, in terms of actors like that, I don't know how many times that's, happened for me except on the David Simon things and that's I think that's really just about this kind of repertory family you know Wendell Pierce um now Larry Gilliard you know a certain amount of time passes too um and I think that's a discussion we have altogether um and I think we feel the roles are different enough and the audience is going to see the character and not be thinking

about the first one? Yeah. I mean, I think that we all approach that with the purity of the piece that's in front of us. I hope that doesn't sound pretentious. No, not at all. Do you want to ask about NYPD Blue? We have, we have.

I don't know if I can remember any of this. I did the New York cast. You were at ABC prior to going. So the New York casting wasn't. With Junie Lowry Johnson, who did the casting out here. We'll get it together. Okay. So do you guys see, do you see?

So come in and read for John Kelly, or is that name of the character? John Kelly is a character. He must have. I can't remember. I mean, it was such a long time ago. She only remembers Jimmy Smiths. That's the point. The nicest man.

Is he? There you go. Absolutely. Yeah. That's why he keeps working, I imagine. Just to wrap up, I think we even said this a little bit in the emails that we sent. What frustrates you most or what would you most like to communicate to people about your job? Because, you know, we talk about what you do.

We talk about the shows that your fingerprints are all over constantly. And yet we've never talked to you until today. We've never had a casting director on to talk about it. So what do you like, what would you like to communicate about the work that the casting director does in this industry? Yeah. I mean, I think that it's, yeah, it's a very specific craft that is. very hard work. But it's something that I think those of us who are good at it love what we do.

And I think, yeah, it's so tricky. I guess just people to understand that there are casting directors who are working hard behind the scenes, working with material, bringing actors and material together, and working with directors and writers and writers. trying to kind of make that soup work and that you can't do it without them. Yeah. Yeah. When people say, oh, the director discovered this person.

Yeah, right. Sure, but they were given six people, you know. They weren't out there pounding the pavement looking at headshots, taking every audition, right? When I was doing, I worked with a showrunner director. I love, Greg Yatanis on Banshee. One of my favorite shows. Happy to say its name on this podcast. And when we were casting the female lead of Quarry, which I also did with him.

Which, let me just say again, since we've said the name, one of the great tragedies with the last five years that they blew it and couldn't find a way to make a second season. Unbelievable. I loved that. So this is an email exchange that my casting associate subsequently framed and gave me for Christmas. But it says something about the relationship of the trust between, you know, a good casting director or a good director after you've worked together a bit. So I wrote to him, the name of an actress was in the subject line. And I said, so-and-so, she's really special,

she's got the depth, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's naturally blind. And he wrote back and he went, really, blind, blind? She was doing a play in London at that time. And my casting associate who was copied, wrote back and went, she means blonde. And he wrote, you know, because it was Alexa, I was kind of willing to go there. That's what I was going to say. What a compliment. What a testament to your own. So in closing, thank you for talking to us.

But people who are listening, watch the credits. Look at all the names and the credits. And there are connections to be made in things that you love that are below the line across all the things that you love on television. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming on. Thanks. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Thomas English Muffins. Here's a Breakfast.

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