The Watch - ‘I Love LA’ Feels Like a Textbook HBO Comedy. Plus, ‘The Lowdown’ Finale.

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the premiere of Rachel Sennott’s HBO series, ‘I Love LA,’ and what the comedy gets right about living in Los Angeles (8:02). Then they discuss the finale of ‘The Lowdown,’ the satisfying conclusion of its central mystery, and their desire for more seasons (25:13). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio in London, it's Andy Greenwald. I feel like you're joining me in London. But not in the studio. Like, you know, this is new turf for you. What's going on?

We're here at Spotify in London. We are in London. By the watch, Transatlantic. This is a tradition unlike any other where you and I fly internationally and do a podcast the morning after a wave election. I detect a smile on your face. Listen, this is a lot more comfortable than it was literally this day. Yeah, I personally wanted an island of feral cats on Manhattan to see what would happen.

But I'll take a blue wave. Greenwald, it's great to see you. Not a lot of news today in terms of television world, but we've got two shows we're going to talk about today. I love L.A. the new show from Rachel Senate and the lowdown season finale. Yeah. Hopefully season. I don't want it to be serious finale. I want more of that. Any London observations, just like cultural. First of all, how are you feeling about these deep seats they have here in Spotify, UK?

I'm feeling very comfortable, both in the studio but also in the city. I love this place so much. Last night, by the way, just as before I forget. Yeah. I haven't mentioned in a long time. You can email us at the watch at spotify.com. Can they also email us at the watch at spotify. com.

I actually don't think that works. Okay, don't do that. You'll probably bounce back. Don't do that. You can also follow us on Instagram at the watchpod underscore on Instagram. And you can watch us on YouTube at the ringer dash TV channel, but also on Spotify, where you're hopefully listening to us. and I've had a great time so far

it's oddly warm here it's hard to address but last night I went to a really fun screening of an 80s cult early late 70s early 80s cult movie called Night of the Juggler which has never been

screened in London probably but it's just like an all time lost classic of the post French connection post dirty hairy wave of grimy Fun City movies, and it's with James Brolin and Cliff Gorman. And it was put on by Radiance, which is the DVD label that I'm obsessed with over here, the physical media label, and transmission, which is like their sublabel.

It was really cool. Did they put this on for you? Because they were like, no, it was happening anyway, but I was like, that is very convenient that I'm going to do for it. So that was really cool. So shout out to Paul and shout out to everybody at Radiance. That was awesome to see. That's coming out, I believe, in December, so people can check it out. I feel like my time has been a little more genteel.

Uh-huh. A lot of commuting. You know, people say like the coldest winter they've ever had is summer in San Francisco. I think the hottest summer I've ever had is November on the London Underground. Do you have AC where you're saying? No. Well, I've never stayed in this. I've been in this flat for a very long time now and also last year.

And it's perfectly nice. I've never been here when it's actually been warm. And I have noted that the windows open. maybe three quarters of an inch. And there is no AC. And I do wonder what it would be like. What's like when the global warming hits? I do feel like that's worrisome.

My most English experience thus far this week was yesterday at work. We were, what's the word? Working. And just to keep the mood light, I was like, hell, fellows. You know what? I think I'm ready for. I've been here for, what, four or five weeks now. I think I'm ready to do Marmite.

I'm ready. Really? I'm ready to do Marmite. And I was like, honestly, I'm not that scared of it. Like, I like a yeasty taste. You know, I like a strong ferment. You know I'm a day one miso boy. So I was like, I think I can do this.

And this was greeted positively. But it also brought work to a screeching halt as our showrunner insisted that she be the one to prepare my first marmite toast. Just go on butter? Yes. And then there was a little bit of a debate. and her assistant has a different strategy. Her strategy is also to toast bread and apply butter, but then to empty most of the Marmite container onto it.

Oh, wow. So I was like, my friends, my colleagues, ladies. Door number two, yeah. Let's do half and half. Oh, okay. And so I was served two very different slices of Marmite toast and a room full of extremely polite English people watch me eat them. Maybe that's why you think it's so hot today.

Because there's just yeast pouring out of my poorest. It was, yeah. What do you think Marmite's going to hit the LA beauty conscious scene? You don't want to know how I felt about it? Yeah, tell me. Which one do you prefer? They're both pretty good. Okay.

No, I mean, I felt like... I've never tasted it. Really? Yeah. You don't think it's in the bloodline through your dad? Like, there's some... I don't think he liked it. He was, like, kind of sadly, like, Americanized by the end, especially in his tastes.

Oh. We certainly like Bud Light. That is different. Yeah, I was like, what else do we do here on this toast? Like, this is good. What else can we do? They're like cheese. Cheese.

And I was like, oh, okay. Anything else? And they were like, absolutely not. Oh. 100% no. But they're very excited about Nigella Lawson's Marmite pasta recipe. I was going to ask you if you had any British cultural recommendations. Yeah, I bet like you're...

Marmite pasta. There you go. That's pretty much it. I've been using the BBC, the fact that I am in England and the fact that I, so you can watch BBC a little bit more. So I checked out Film Club, which is Amy Lou Wood's show. Oh, cool. Which features a pre-fame Owen Cooper from Adela. lessons in a role. Oh. And Saran Joneses. And it's, it's charming. Yeah, that's cool. I mostly

just wait for the night a week when canal boat diaries is on. Wait, what about your, your boy who goes to Porto? Oh, yeah. Okay. So my two spirit animals here, and I imagine, if anyone who works here who is producing us today, these wonderful people, I hope they're not watching this, because I feel like they might. No, I think that's important that they do. Okay. So basically, I have, in my flat, I have, I guess, basic cable. And there's, like, one channel that just plays The Simpsons all the time. And there's one channel that just plays Master Chef Australia all the time. And there's six channels that play Strictly Come Dancing.

The Best Channel is the one that plays Top of the Pops 98. And it's just Top of the Pops performances from 98. But the two shows in the heaviest rotation are the aforementioned Canal Boat Diaries in which a guy goes on a skinny boat around London and he reaches a place where there's a lock and he can't get through. And he's like, oh, it's going to be a bit of a bother, isn't it? And then he's like, and then it cuts because there's no. cameraman. He's just drone-shotting it and like selfieing. And then he's like, luckily the local locks volunteer has agreed to help me and is raising the lock. And there's just some guy in a hat going

and then he goes on. And then every so often he stops at a market to buy incredibly spicy ingredients to make a curry, which I think he used to just blow out his tiny boat. Like it's just that that's that's the real engine of the show. But the other thing is, and I feel like we should have an expert on this, is just I've become very, very obsessed with the Michael Portillo. phenomenon. Yeah. And he is a very, very fancy Dan, older man now wearing bright colors who travels the world, off in Portugal, often different parts of Portugal, and is always just going up to...

He probably lives there for tax purposes. But he's just always going up to dudes named like Rodrigo who live in wheat mills. And if like birthed all of their children there. And he's just like, what do you do, Rodrigo? And he's Reeved Rodrigo just stares at him. Oh, can I have a whack at that? And I was watching it and I was like, oh, this guy's awesome. This guy just likes to travel.

And then I Googled him and he's just like a deeply conservative former MP who is, well, I'm not going to, you know what, libel laws are different here. Yeah. But I was, his personal life section of his Wikipedia surprised me. Is it Wikipedia.com? Because it can be different sometimes. Oh, that's a great point. So anyway, I think I'm going a bit native. Okay.

Or insane. Well, then let's talk about your homeland. Sure. Not your original homeland, but your adopted one, Los Angeles, the Great Southland. Rachel's Senate has come along and made, well, it's definitely a show of its moment. And it's a show probably of like the last couple of years. I think TV always has that issue where what you're writing about and in sort of,

this is cutting edge, vocabulary, slang, trends, what have you. In 2023 might not be. what happens in 2025, but I feel like she did a pretty good job with this. I love L.A. is, I saw Allison Herman in Variety compared this, I thought smartly, to how to make it in America,

an entourage more than a sitcom. And that actually, I was like, oh, okay. Like, I kind of like, I watched some episodes already, and I watched this, we're going to talk about this premiere that just happened on Sunday.

But I think initially I was just like, but is it, is this funny enough? you know, right? Are you Michael Portillo? Pardon me, Rachel? Go of a whack at that. Is that mutton? Yeah.

Delicious. Rachel sent it who was obviously, she was one of the stars of Shiva Baby. Will you explain Rachel sent it to me because I have remained relatively clean? I think she emerged somewhat out of vine and out of like internet fame doing short videos on her social media.

And very quickly kind of took the A-24. Up down? you know what I'm saying? Yeah. She very quickly became something of a sensation with an indie film world by doing Shibababababee and Bodies, Bodies, and bottoms.

Right, and there's kind of like a click of some of the people who are part of this group of young creatives, like Mahala, who we love in industry, seems to be part of this world to a degree. Chase Sweet Wonders,

who's amazing on studio, is, am I, I, I'm not just grouping people together because they're women under 30. No, I don't know.

I mean, like, I, IEOC, you know, Iowa Debris, yeah, exactly. So this show stars Senate. It was created by Senate for a long time. It was called Untitled Rachel Senate Project,

which, uh, up until like fairly recently it was called that. And it's essentially about a New Yorker who comes to Los Angeles to make it as a talent manager, um, and make it in the entertainment industry broadly. I think it's actually,

uh, at least in terms of it anthropologically, like interesting to view as why people, come to Los Angeles over the decades. Why they come now. And why they come now. She's moved to New York. She has a couple of friends.

Most notably, I think, is English teachers, Jordan Firstman, who is placed Charlie in the show. And Forrest Whitaker's daughter is also... Oh. I believe Leah Whitaker. True Whitaker? True Whitaker. Sorry.

Is also in her friend group in the series. And she has a boyfriend played by Josh Hutcherson. who has a normal type job as a teacher. Yeah. But everybody else is kind of broadly working in and around and on the outskirts of what stands in for the entertainment industry now, which used to be TV and movies, but now, you know, encompasses social media and brand deals for, you know,

and working and influencing and obviously all this other stuff. Does it include podcasting? There is a sort of a little bit of like a tongue-in-cheek podcast joke in this first episode as the characters walk the Silver Lake Rose-Iwar. It's what we deserve. So the first episode is, really, really decent pilot setup, which is it's her birthday. It's Maya, the Rachel Senate character. It's her birthday weekend. She's trying to get a promotion from Leighton Meester. Layton Meester or Leighton?

Okay, Leighton Meester. Who is phenomenal as kind of a generation above. Because she's also a nobody wants this this year. Which is renewed. Congratulations to our buddy Tim Simons. Congratulations to Hitmaker. Yet another one. Another one. Another banger. I think Leighton Meester is so good on the show as Maya's boss, who is... I swear to God, I went through like a two or three-year period where people were like, it's leading, actually. Oh, maybe it is.

I don't think it is. You know what? Let's just focus on that. Anyway, she runs, what was, what's her job? What is, what is, she's an assistant at a management company? But managing what? I don't know. Podcasters?

I'm open. Like, I think influencers or I think brands. Okay. But I can't tell. Or maybe I missed that line in the dialogue. Anyway, she works there. She's hoping for a promotion that doesn't come. She's bummed out, and who comes into her life but her past in the form of Tallulah,

a big influencer played by Odessa A Zion, who you might remember from Better Things. She's Pamela Adlin's daughter. Yes. And she kind of is like this hurricane comes into her life. They've had a falling out in the past. Rachel said its character, Maya, tried to block her on social media, stuff like that. There's a kind of crazy night out. Yeah.

And then a birthday dinner, we get to the end of it. And we find that they've kind of made amends. And now they're going to take on LA together, manager and client once again to conquer the city. So what did you broadly think of this first episode? I enjoyed it. I really did. And we should also shout out that there's a really strong team behind the scenes.

Lorene Schaeferia who... Only one person ever makes television. You should know that by now. You? Only one person makes toast. Lorraine Scafaria, who's a great director, who worked on Succession most recently and has now has reached the trusted HBO club. She's on the show, I think, as the directing producer or producing director, I mean, old buddy Max Silvestri, who's a great comedian who just launched his own podcast with Gabe Liebman and Jenny Slate. He's an EP on the show, Emma Berry.

And, you know, I think what you want in a show that purports to offer a slice of a very specific life is you want confidence. And the pilot hits you with confidence. It begins with earthquake sex, which is a pretty good starting point for what the show is going to be and gets you right in the mood. Apparently, Maya in the mood as well. I have to say my first,

here are the two planks of my affection for the show thus far. I'm curious if you had a similar reaction. One plank is, I like shows about groups of friends in situations. There was a show I remember from the 90s that had a similar kind of setup. I think it was called Friends. Yeah.

That is a reliable chestnut and it feels good. And once this group of people got to get together on camera, I think in the pilot, as you said, it's at the Silver Lake Reservoir. I was just enjoying the banter because these people knew each, they know each other, the performers clearly are comfortable with each other, and the work was done to give them each a distinctive voice. Jordan Firstman, this character of Charlie does not seem on first blush to be that different from the character he wonderfully plays as an English teacher.

Sure. but I love that character and I'm happy to see him. So I was comfortable already. The other thing that I really did appreciate, and maybe this is some degree of homesickness, is it understands something I feel is profound about Los Angeles or maybe the observation isn't profound, but the truth is profound,

which is that nothing really works there. It's kind of not a functioning place. Yeah, it's a lot of lines. It's a lot of humiliation. Yeah. There is a... Waiting for bagels. Waiting to get into tenants of the trees.

Exactly. Like we, there's a moment in the pilot when Toulou is like, it's your birthday, let's go to the beach. And they're immediately all like, oh my God, that would be such a whole thing. Yeah. And that is true. The driving, the lines that just, is it really worth it if I could just stay home, is baked into the place? Yes. And there's also something very specific about visitors or new transplants that is very sweet because I remember being this person.

Like all the years when Grantlin was going. and I still lived in New York and I would come out and visit people. I was just driving Santa Monica like straight to the ocean and back just for the hell of it. I was like, why would I not? Because you have the energy, yeah.

And the novelty of driving. And I couldn't understand why no one wanted to leave a 10-minute radius. And that went away so fast. That went away so fast. I was having a conversation with someone last night who was talking about how it's, you know, the Los Angeles

like kind of effusive positivity is throws off, you know, if you're from the East Coast or if you're from Europe, you might be a little bit blinkered by like how positive everybody is and they're like, you know, even if you're just going into a store and it's like, you just have a great day, okay? Yeah. And I was like, well, lucky, luckily,

you can go days without speaking to anyone in Los Angeles because you're just always in your car. A hundred million percent. And just like the inflexibility of things, you know. And the fact that like in the pilot, Charlie, Charlie has expended his daily allotment of energy waiting in line for courage bagels your muffs overrated bagels

You know come on hey I don't stand in that line Not that I cut the line I just generally speaking I go to Morris yeah it's yeah because Moris are Bagels yeah courage is delicious bread That is nice it's nice for a treat when you go there I can always count on you And because courage is having a very like

It's very media moment Because it's all over nobody wants this too And I think Courage Bagels is a fine destination. Everybody should have at least once. Sure. But what I look for, if I may, in a bagel, is both delicious flavor but also usability. Freezeability.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You like to have some. And if you want a chefy bagel that freeze as well, mustards opened up in Culver City, which feels like 8,000 miles away from where we are right now. Well, they were. There better be like a pile of drugs at the

end of that. There's no way I'm doing that. I'm just letting people know. You know who I'm letting know the Tallulas who listen to our podcast who are willing to take influencer photos. But yeah, just like that these little supposedly compostable styrofoam containers are somehow like status symbols and you've checked a box and then that's your day. I really, I really, really like that. And of course, you know, unsurprisingly, because the show is made by young people who live there, like there is just a, you could play bingo with locations that track. I mean, there's Dintai Fung reference. I think Capri Club shows up in the second episode.

This is like a day-to-day life set. Somebody is listening to us in St. Louis and just be like, I hope you guys go fucking fall into the Thames. For what it's worth. There's a Dintai Fung here in London. There is. It's international change. And an egg slut and five guys. And everything's great.

No, but just a city with a day-to-day life set to the rhythm of people shaking salads at their desks. Yeah, I think, honestly, life's better when there's an HBO show like this. I don't mean to make things too complicated. It's just, I've always enjoyed a 30-minute comedy slice of life, like you said, about a group of friends somewhere. Yeah. And I will watch every episode of this. I laughed.

You know, like, yeah, for sure. I'm not going to spoil anything. But one takeaway from the second episode that would just be a little note for me that I'm curious about is that the end of the second episode introduces some stakes, basically, in a way that I was like, this show is so. confident. It hasn't aired yet, right? No. Okay. But the show is so confident in its situation that it doesn't really need this, particularly

because the stakes are to do with influencer drama, which I think is right down there with, like, Dick Cheney's obituary in terms of things that I'm interested in engaging with right now. I've been loving some Dick Cheney obit. Have you? Yeah. You know what I respect about the guy? Because everybody, first of all, you can tell some of them were written like nine years ago. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So they're just like, what? the master of the Senate kind of like stuff. And then it's just like some guy had to come in and do like a later period rewrite as like... This guy loves democracy. History changed and he was just like,

huh. So a late breaking turn towards the Democratic Party, but war crimes. One of the things that I really respect about him is that as we learn from both history living through it and the film Vice. Yeah. This man had many opportunities to check out

over the last 40 years. Five heart attacks, got a respected, heart transplant. But what he couldn't live to see as a Democratic Socialist, elected mayor of New York. He's just like Sam Elliott at the end of 1883. Just like, I've seen enough. I respect it. Sam Elliott definitely moved out of New York City.

Do you think? Him and Deborah Messing. We're like, this is... We're leaving. We're done. The other thing that... Tell me how you feel about this. I don't know if this makes me old or in the correct demographic.

But the way that Maya, Rachel Sennett's character and Tallulah talk to each other. I was like, why are they talking like that? What's familiar to me about that? And then I remember that I recently powered through the back half of Platonic Season 2, the show that I just genuinely love. Loved the show. I really hope they make more of it and make it forever.

I think it's on Apple, so they will. They probably will. They probably don't even know they've greenlit it for five seasons. Late in the season of Platonic, the great 80 Bryant shows up playing a character named Cabo Carey. And Cabo Carey talks to Rose Byrne's character the way these young people talk to each other, but it's a bit.

You know, she's just like, what's up, bitch? Hey, Mama, we're getting espresso tini's. And I can't, like, I guess that version of it, where A.D. Bryant, who is more our peer, is making fun of it, speaks to me. So it was a little bracing to be around people who are actually just speaking this way. Yeah, I think I've more or less internalized it.

You know what I mean? doesn't sound like a foreign language so much to me anymore. I don't... Well, first of all, you keep it 100. Always. Like, in these streets, 10 end of the trees every weekend. That's right. That's you.

I'm always at the reservoir. That's your east side of Los Angeles. Post it up. We've talked about this before. Like, we are not in any, any way, celebrities in the world. No. Except near Sunset Junction, where you are the fucking...

No. You are the Big Lobowski. No. You are the king. The amount of times, that you are recognized or hailed as you cross the street, whatever, is considerable and worthy. You know, deserving. Yeah, anybody wants to say hi.

So do you think if you walked past on the reservoir, this group of people, would any of them... They've never heard a podcast. Definitely not. Isn't Kyah putting us on TikTok now? Aren't we like, we going viral, baby? I think within the Alice and Oliver fan community we do, but not really beyond that. I don't think we're permeating. You are the L-Solver fan community.

Sub-tears of Charlie X-C-X-Pop, like hyper-pop fame. Should we do the four-non-blondes meme, just the two of us? What's that? See? I didn't see that. What we're doing the... What is the four-nine blondes mean? Well, there's like the mash-up of what's up.

Yeah. And the rap verse, and it's like the two people back-to-back and the camera spins and one's lip-syncing Linda Perry part. I've never seen this. It's always really hard when, like, if you're describing a meme, somebody's just like, what do you seem? You seem interested, though.

Let me describe a couple more memes for you. I think it's going to be good for us. All right. Okay, no memes, I guess. We're keeping this a little bit of compressed today. We're both warm, warm thumbs up from Siskel and to Siskel here about. I think that you summed it up very well that HBO should have shows like this. Yes.

And they're good at cultivating shows like this. It's funny, almost anecdotally, without looking at the data, feels like they crank out more prestige mysteries than what is the group of friends hanging out comedy that we have on. I suppose you could say like Gemstones and the Danny McBride universe has sort of taken that lane for a little while. But I still maintain that the backbone of this show is when we used to have Game of Thrones and Veep and girls on the same night.

Sure. And I would like to get back to them. I mean, listen, Abigail Spanberger's leading the charge, return to normalcy. I had, I wondered who was going to make a Spamberger reference first. It would be really funny. It was always going to be me. I was kind of thinking like, what if we just made this day all about Spamberger? Like, no mention of Montaigne.

One of my favorite things to wake up to, it is, you know, last year was a sobering instance in this, but it is pretty good to just wake up to stuff having happened. Yeah. Two years in a row, Red October ends abruptly. I'm like, I've got to go get coffee. Like, it's fine, right? And one of the nice and like reassuring things that the world marches onward was waking up to like the first headline of being like the Democrats have won every major race in America, including like the board of utility directors in Georgia. Oh, yeah.

And then the news like some Georgia or utility board goes straight socialists. And then below that it says news analysis. For Democrats, one positive flicker in a never ending nightmare of suffering with questions to come. Thank you, great lady. Thank you for really setting my expectations this morning. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with the yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. I want to make sure we have time to talk about the lowdown. I want to leave with love here. Oh. Because I think that there was a little bit with the Walter Mosley-Pedilternum episode last week. I was like, oh, this felt like a little choppy and like, you know, you'd pointed out it was a little shorter

than most of the other run times and that penultimate episodes can either, there's really like a wide variance of their success rate because it can either be the thing that everybody remembers or it can be something

that's basically a bridge to the finale. This finale was deeply emotionally satisfying. Absolutely. And I thought quite beautifully acted and really gave

several characters a chance to round out and be complete in this last inning. And I especially wanted to shout out your boy, Colin. He was so good in this episode. Who I think in most shows would either be a villain or a useful idiot. Yep. And instead is something different. Not a hero, but got to be every part of who that character was.

He was the 15th paragraph in the Dick Cheney obituary. Yeah. I don't know if I understand that. A surprising turn. A surprising turn late in life. Spanberger. The scenes that he has with Keith David, with Marty, the scenes that he has,

especially when he has to read and be read Lee's article about his brother. And the last few scenes of him handling Tom McCarthy, giving a speech, those things, you just got to see the totality of a person rather than just an evil villain. There's a world, there's a version of this show that's still excellent,

where there are just half a dozen characters who are just straight up bad and dead demons. As bad as bad as bad can be. Yes, and I thought it was interesting to watch Sterling Hardo and his team make a show where even characters like Tracy Letts's Frank character is still pleading his sort of like, I didn't mean to kill this guy, you know, throughout...

There's a humanity. They were rattled by events or they were caught up in events. They were swept up in opportunity or ambition and can't get past their own morality. at the end, which was really compelling. What did you think of the finale? I think that you're right to frame it that way. I thought Kyle, who I like very much personally,

but just like on camera so much as well. Like, I've said this throughout the course of this season, but one of the great things that autores and TV can do is just see into actors and see the best versions of them, see what they've been itching to do, see the muscles that haven't been stretched in a while and give them a chance. So Keith David being drunk on bovine birthing pills was not something I had on my bingo car, but he seemed to enjoy the hell out of it.

Kyle McLaughlin, in that scene, not being asked to play the extremes that often he, I mean, I think he likes doing. Sure. Whether it's on, you know, podcast, TikTok videos, or lynchier stuff or showgirls or whatever, like playing just kind of a complicated guy. I thought was really, really strong. And to your point about, like, the things that ultimately I love in television shows are finally drawn, deeply specific, deeply emotional portraits of community.

And the business of the show returning to the street that the bookstore is on and the interactions between everyone, the season building towards this wedding where Lee basically, that gives his blessing, but is it... Let's go of his past a little bit.

Yeah, and is it peace with who his daughter is the scene when Francis reads, I don't know if it's like a poetry slam or what the context for that was, but like as a hashtag girl dad, like that's gnarly and affecting. And I was glad there was space for it in the show. So I'm in the tank. I love it. I think in terms of resolving a mystery, it was a little bit woolier than... I think it resembled a lot of my favorite mystery novels.

Yeah, where it's just like, oh, it's over now. Yeah, or there's a data dump at a certain point. I sure was, yeah. And, you know, Lee figures everything out, a little bit of it happening off screen or a little bit of the, like, kind of connective tissue of it, I think, is a little obscured from the viewer,

but, you know, you can see that Lee would do the work as he puts together this final article for Heartland Press. But, yeah, I mean, like, in a James All-Roy novel, often you will, the protagonist will come across the lone witness who's been living in a cabin somewhere in Big Bear and the guy's like, here's how the Black Dahlia murder happened, you know, or whatever. You must have missed that book.

I feel like in Big Nowhere that happens or White Jazz. And I thought this book kind of, or this show kind of mirrored that. You know, so just briefly, like I'll just kind of touch on some of the sort of plot. It ties a knot on the whole land grab conspiracy plot. that took over the last several episodes. Interesting how this show was maybe two or three different mysteries that kind of led into one another.

So I think in the beginning, it's the skinheads and it's Dale's death and what Donald might have had to do with it. And then the sort of ethno-nationalist religious and evangelical group kind of emerges. And the 46,

which is sort of Frank and Tripps power broker group. And you sort of start to get like a deeper and deeper conspiracy. And Sterling really expertly, I thought, like at various points where you think, okay, this guy, Allen is going to be the villain and he gets killed. And then you're like, okay, we're going along. And now I think this guy, Tracy Letts is going to be the villain. But it's not really him.

It's this larger like ex-con religious group who are probably like the bigger, bigger bad. So I thought that was all neat. Obviously they bring Graham Green in for, I believe his last performance. And he's quite wonderful. and plays a pivotal character in the show. And by the end of it, you know, pretty much everybody is placed, not at rest, you know, but I think what would be a satisfying conclusion if they don't do more lowdown.

Yeah, I think the show was at its weakest, or this episode was at its weakest during the long scene when Lee and Betty Joe talk about what they've done and what they haven't done. I like that. You didn't like that? I like the actors. Mm-hmm. But it was a very, very long scene of exposition and, you know, sort of position setting about where they were and how they felt about each other and who was at fault here. I think one of the things that I like about Sterlin as a filmmaker and as an artist, and this was true in Reservation Dogs as well, is that he's a big fucking softie. And I mean that as a compliment.

Like, this is a show about, it believes deeply in the power of change, of being seen, being known even after your passing. It believes in evolution, not in a Darwinist sense, but like in terms of who you are and what you stand for. Kyle McLaughlin's character being still a Republican candidate for governor, who, frankly, goes pretty woke in a cool way. And it's like, I don't need this group. I just need to build a different base for my candidacy and I have a different framing for my love of this place which to again, to the show's credit and to Sterling's credit, it's not, he lives there.

So he understands that there are people who have different competing visions of why they love the place that they live. And I appreciated that complexity and I appreciated the turn towards grace throughout. I think it is very, very, very, hard to make journalism dramatically compelling. So the shots of him drinking coffee and writing an article that was going to change stuff

is they, you know, I think it was the best it could be. But better that than a fake, you know, because the penultimate episode ends with Lee brandishing a gun. Yes, this isn't right. And a church full of people to try and citizens arrest Frank. His pen is mightier. Yeah. And it's nice that like they don't need to have this end in a hail of bowl.

No, and it's also nice, certainly, for like, our perspective on the world that, like, truth story can win out. Yeah. You know, I, we don't know anything about the future of the show, right? But, like, I loved it. And I loved it both for the story that it told and where it went, but also just as a really exciting canvas for this artist and his very impressive group of friends, colleagues, and collaborators to play. and I think a second season should we get one could be potentially incredibly exciting. Oh, I mean, I think there's a lot to be said

that like this was the elmatic and it was written as coming next because to use an Nas analogy, I don't know, you kind of didn't really seem to notice what I was saying. No, I'm just curious where you're going next. You pump, you throw everything you've got into the first season.

Yeah. And I think that there is an element of like Sterling wanted to say everything he could about being a dad and everything he could about Tulsa and every kind of optimistic dream he has about a better Tulsa. And like even that block that he built up with Sweet Emily's in the record store and the bookstore

is like the dream block. But the next season could be like someone hiresley to find their missing wife and like it's just like kind of a lean mean noir. Or Lee could go on the road and go somewhere else. in this version of it is season three Uchiwali I guess so yeah I mean is that I am

I think it's later this is the Braveheart's record yeah that's right it gets kind of dodgy after but then lost tapes so season five would be sick yeah a throwback to season 11 yeah what a great show though just wanted yeah just wanted to say that it's very rare to see TV shows that take the time to have um plot lines to give so much time to say

something that we didn't even comment on after it happened, which was Marty's day-long date with Odette played by Tisha Campbell. Beautiful episode. And all it ends with is Tisha Campbell's character saying, you don't really ask questions. Like, you don't seem that interested in me.

You know, you really seem more fascinated by your boss and invested in your work. She seemed like a nice guy, but like, we'll be having a second date. And I think it subtly changes Marty and sends him in this direction of where he's like, I am going to work with Lee and I am going to try and figure out what's going on here. But ultimately, like, that's like a bunch of real estate to put a TV show, to stake a TV in a TV show for a character who's not going to come back for a romantic.

A dinklage episode was like that as well. Yeah, exactly. So to have these little short stories within the novel, I thought was quite lovely. And I really hope they get to do more of it. I have nothing to add to that. I completely agree. Let's wrap up there for this episode. Okay.

We're going to be back in 48 hours, as far as you know, listener, because we're going to be back with a special episode talking about the first two episodes of Pluribus, which is the new show from Vince Gilligan on Apple TV. The first two episodes air, I believe on Friday morning. We have no way of knowing. Yeah. We do have a way of knowing. The seventh, which is Friday.

So you'll be able to listen to that Vince Gilligan episode as soon as you're done those first two episodes. he also joins me on the show to talk. I talked to him a couple weeks ago, and we're going to run that interview on Friday. So thank you for listening, and we will be back in just a couple of days to chat about pluribus. Enjoy your canal boats, Jarnske's.