The Watch - 'I May Destroy You Never Lets Up', Jake Johnson on ‘Hoops', and 'Lonesome Dove' Pt. 2

Episode Date: August 13, 2020

Chris and Andy talk about HBO Max’s troubles, including its distribution struggles (02:39). Then actor Jake Johnson joins to introduce his Netflix show ‘Hoops,’ about a foul-mouthed basketball coach (12:07). And they continue their discussion about ‘Lonesome Dove,’ focusing on the miniseries’ second episode and the second chunk of the acclaimed book (46:45). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Jake Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, everybody expects us to have an anime podcast. Michael Peters, Justin Charity, at long last, are they podcasting once again about anime? No. I'm Justin Charity. And I'm Micah Peters. Honestly, this podcast might turn out to be like the Eddie Murphy, Martin Lawrence movie Life, except neither of us is in prison, and in fact, we're not even taping in the same location. But we will be talking a lot about the millennial life.

you know, music, video games, strange stuff from the dark corners of the internet that piques our interest. People think this is going to be, oh, a little topic A, oh, what's topic B, oh, a little, you know, chit-chat. No, every time you tune into this podcast, we are going to lock you into a room for 45 minutes, and we are going to do criticism. We are going to get to the bottom of every Scooby-Doo mystery that the discourse produces for us each week. Mark my words. Man, that was a lot.

But anyway, we are excited about it. We are excited. We're excited. We're super excited. I'm Justin Charity. And I'm Micah Peters. And this is Sound Only. We're back on August 11th. Catch us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

Let's go. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to the watch. Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheWrinder.com. And joining me on the other line, as always, it's Andy Free Wall. Hello. How are you, buddy? Well, that was reserved. How are you? It's Thursday? We have a fantastic show for you. We have an amazing show. I was only reserved because I was

just looking over my notes because I'm in my head about an omission from Monday. So tell them about the table of contents, and then I'll get into it. On today's episode of The Watch, a long-running pop culture podcast featuring two friends, we have a rambling, an awesome interview with Jake Johnson. Jake Johnson, you may know him from drinking buddies, from Win It All, from New Girl, from Jurassic World, from Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse. Jake's got a new animated show coming on Netflix this weekend called Hoops,

which is very, very profane and very, very funny, and it's about a high school basketball coach who curses constantly. This is really, it's like old home summer for us because we are having a lot of the classic OG friends of the pod back. We had Tim Simons last week. We got Jakey J. week. This is a good time.

Yeah, but Andy, first, you just seem ashen, honestly. So we had a, I thought a good and informative, a spirited conversation about HBO Max on Monday and about the upheaval within Warner Media. And we were talking about the reasons for the upheaval. And I think we ticked off a lot of the correct boxes. There was one on the tip of my tongue that I completely spaced on. And thankfully, a reporter named Scott Porch, who writes for Decider and other places, ding me for it. on Twitter, which I appreciated, which is we didn't mention distro. We didn't mention the distribution.

We didn't mention that one of the major problems with HBO Max's launch isn't necessarily the content, although we talked about why that may also be a problem area. It's that most of the country can't get it because Warner has not been able to work out carriage agreements with Roku or Amazon for their fire products like fire stick. So if you watch TV through either of those places, which are many, many millions of people, Roku is just really flexing its muscle a lot recently. You cannot watch HBO Max on those things at all. And in fact, they were so petty that when they sunset at HBO Go,

they just deleted it. Like, you could get HBO Go on your Firestick or Roku. And now they're just gone. And I believe Peacock is in the same situation, but those deals just have not been worked out. And so you, and yes, you could make the counter argument that the fact that people can't see it is just temporarily delaying the fact that people might not

want to see what they can see once they get it. But short-term, this is a major issue. Yeah, so explain this to me. Like, essentially, the only people who can get it are those who have access to what Apple TV. You can watch it on your browser, correct? Like, I mean, you can. Right. But if you're using primarily a Firestick or a Roku to watch all your apps, you just cannot get HBO Max. It's not available through those app stores. Yes. And I think that the line Amazon is drawing is interesting. I don't have any opinion because I'm not nearly informed enough as to its legality or its best practices, good sportsmanship or whatever. But it seems like HBO wants a little app button to just be there, whereas Amazon wants to put it inside

of its channels choice. So basically, it's siloed further away. You could argue that that's because they want people to watch their prime video content instead. But anyway, all of this is ongoing. And And Jason Collar, who is now in charge of Warner Media, made this a big centerpiece in his conversations with the press after the firings the other day. They have to just get it in front of people, and Peacock is facing the same situation, too. And it reminds me, once again,

that for as industry-focused as we are, and I watch TV through an Apple TV, and you might as well, this idea that we were pushing for a while that maybe Apple just kind of wanted to be the portal, they wanted to be the thing that you use to watch your TV, maybe that's still the case, but a lot more people watch TV through other devices

than they watch it through Apple TV, and that's having a major effect. I watch all of my channels through the same site, which I've been using since 2005. It's called Iraqgoals.net. It's where you can watch a lot of illegal soccer streams. Great, great.

So how... There is legitimately is a site called that. I do not recommend... Like the country of Iraq? Yes, as in Saddam Hussein, Iraq. Yeah. Because I assume that was Paul Wolfowitz's homepage for his personal blog and musins. Like, I still have some Iraq goals. No, it's just actually Wolfowitz is a big MLS blogger. He's like, FC Dallas. I think at this point, like in the summer of 2020, Wolfowitz would just be like,

here's my sourdough starter. That's true. I named it Uday. Paul Wolfowitz is like, where did all the Bon Appetit videos go? Nobody tells me anything. They seem like they all got along. Andy, did you want to talk at all about I May Destroy You before we get into our conversation with Jay Johnson? Just briefly, because this was a very... Well, you know, I was going to say that this episode was

a little bit different from what we've had before, but the last few episodes have all been in some way, standalone episodes. Yeah. And I guess just what I wanted to say was this was an emotional episode. It was centered more on Arabella's family, but also emotional in

Kwame's side story as well. And this, I was debating saying this about the show because it feels a little trite, but I guess I'll say it anyway. Otherwise, I just have to put it on my 03-era anti-war blog, which is just that we give, and we have been giving a lot of people have been giving Michaela Cole enormous credit,

deserve credit for the ways she's given us a show that just isn't like other TV shows, that isn't wired like other TV shows that doesn't show us performers or performances like other TV shows that wrestles with things that other TV shows are. afraid of. But what I really admired about this episode was it turned towards concrete emotion.

You know, it wasn't necessarily groundbreaking to observe the complicated relationships that Arabella had with her mother and her father or for Kwame's grinder wanderings to end up in a place where he just asked for and received a hug and have that be just incredibly, obviously meaningful to him, but a very rewarding moment for the audience as well. Yeah. I just really admire that she wasn't afraid to have that be a part of the show as well, that it wasn't pushing so blindly forward into the radical, the new, the uncomfortable, the intentionally disquieting, that it didn't have room for this as well. Yeah, I kind of like, I sometimes enjoy the lack of Chekhov's gun in this show. You know, I mean, I think that there is a lot, but there, the Kwame's relationships

throughout the season, I think are telling their own story while they also are intertwined with Arabella's sort of a plot. And I think there were points in this last episode where I was sort of wondering when he's on the bus. I'm like, where are we going with this? Like, what is this going to, what is this doing? And sometimes I think it just does what it wants to do. And it is what it is and it means what it means.

And it's sort of beautiful to watch humanity play out. And I thought that the stuff with the family, though, like you mentioned, was so true to life. The way that if you spend your entire life with a group of people the way you do with your immediate family. The stuff that gets buried and the stuff that you kind of half remember and the people who pass through that family and each person has a different reputation with different members of your family and there are all these little secrets and all these little stories. I thought that the way that she dramatized that was just so wonderful.

I really don't have enough praise for this show. Every week when I'm like maybe it's going to run out of steam at 12 episodes, I kind of hope that this show goes on for multiple seasons. Yeah, I also just really enjoy the work she does poking at the fallibility of memory. Obviously, this show is based on an event that she can't remember where she was drugged and assaulted, and her memory of that is, I mean, Hasey is a very light word for it.

I mean, it comes in and out. There are parts of that night that she doesn't remember. But it's so interesting the way she pokes at the fact that there are parts of her own life and childhood that she also has not remembered or slightly misremembered, or buried for whatever reason. And that memory is always a living, fallible thing.

You know, it's not just about the one event. It's about the whole span of life up to this point. It's just an incredibly good show. Yeah, I mean, it'll be fascinating to see how they wrap up this season, these last two episodes. So we're just doing a little admin here, Andy. We have our interview with Jake Johnson. Hoops is coming out on Netflix this weekend,

and everybody should check that out. And then after Jake, Andy and I do our second installment of Lonesome Pod, Summer of Dove, the Lonesome Dove Recap, Deep Dive that we're doing, taking in both Lyra McMertree's epic novel and the miniseries on CBS from 1989. This conversation is about the second episode of that miniseries, so that section of the book, and it essentially covers Blue Duck, Lorena, Gus's quest to get her back, all that stuff. and we kind of outline that in the conversation.

It's been really heartwarming to see the response to people who really, whether they're revisiting the book or the mini-series or discovering it for the first time. It's been really cool. Shout to our buddy Colin Hanks, who agreed to start the book and then within 20 pages was on horseback on Instagram. I just feel like this book can change people's lives. And we're really excited that it's affecting everyone's lives

as much as it's affected ours this year. And so, yeah, just to remind people after Jake Johnson interview, we will have the second part of it, but eventually we will put all four parts together in one giant pod for people who are maybe a little bit behind on the reading and to keep sending us some questions for our wrap-up discussion about the book, about the miniseries, about Larry McMurtry in general, about biscuit cookery, whatever motivates you.

Hit us up on the Facebook group or on Twitter because we want to talk to you about this book. It's really all we talk to each other about at this point, IRL, so we welcome you to it. So episode three, our third installment of Lonesome Dove will be on Monday. We're also going to be talking Lovecraft Country with Misha Green, who's the showrunner of Lovecraft Country. That debuts on Sunday, and everybody should check that out.

Until then, Greenwald, great to see you, man. Good to see you. Great have Jackie Jay back. It really is. Let's get into that interview. The watch is, well, we're so happy to welcome back. One of the most visionary architects and builders that this country has given us in this century and it's Jake Johnson. Jake, thanks for joining us back on the watch.

Thank you. He also dabbles in acting, right? A little bit. I'm just not very good at it or the building. What did I do you mean to say is I haven't been on this show in a while and now that... Too long. Yeah, and now that Andy's a Hollywood hot shot, I feel like a little nervous, uncomfortable as an actor. I would like to give you my head shot, sir. I'm going to give you notes on this performance and maybe if you could just Just repeat some of the lines back. You say that faster and you forgot some words.

Oh, no, I'm not a technical director of actors. What I just do is, I just say do it better. Or I say, like, I come over, I put my arms around you, look you in the eye, and I say I'm very disappointed. Does that work? I mean, I guess so. Unfortunately for me, nothing really works because I have one gear. What gear is that?

Second, but I don't have a first. And I don't really have a third gear. And I pretend that my car is automatic, even though it sticks, so that I seem fancier. Do you let loose some sort of high-pitch grinding noise when the emotional stakes get too high for that gear? Because you can't shift into it. Yeah, I do. Jake, we got you on here because we wanted to talk to you about hoops,

which is coming on Netflix this weekend. And it is a delightful animated series about a foul-mouthed high school basketball coach whose life is falling apart around him as he tries to get his team to play, just play the right way, which is what we all want to do. I like to refer it as like a sweet little indie

that has a lot of heart. Yeah, it is. It is. It's actually an unofficial drinking buddies follow-up. Nobody really knows this yet. What's great about Hoops is that, you know, I was watching a screener. Thank you for that.

Thank you, Jake. Thank you, Netflix. Thank you, Jake, Netflix, the air to the Netflix fortune. And I was watching it on my laptop. and it's a cartoon and I have children and the

there are a lot of f-bombs you know like this is this is a disgusting show it's a grown-up cartoon as everyone of my household found out quickly and that's when I pulled out these bad boys this is an audio file so big big boy bad boys is not refer to my other children who are older and can understand it it refers

to these headphones it actually refers to Martin Lawrence and Will Smith who's hanging out I can't say enough to anybody who's thinking of watching Hoops. It is a grown-up, disgusting, R-rated show with no great message. If you are looking for any sort of depth or any sort of thing with heart or that could teach you something during this quarantine or watch as a family, with the beauty of 2020, you've got so many other options.

Hoops is a show if you cannot sleep and maybe you've had one. on too many cocktails, or you've partaking some marijuana, or you just feel loose. Watch it alone. Hopefully, you laugh. If you don't laugh at the first minute, you're not going to laugh at episode 10. It doesn't evolve. It hits the same loud joke, a lot of different ways. Although I think that you're selling your broad appeal short here, because one thing that's

happened since we last had you on the podcast is you have become, and your voice has become incredibly important to children all over this country because of your work in the beloved, now classic animated film, Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse as Peter B. Parker. So there's going to be a time when some children who watch that religiously on Netflix hear the dulcet tones of Peter P. Parker

coming from perhaps the parents' bedroom, knock on the door and wonder why Peter B. Parker is talking about having multiple people give him multiple blowjobs on multiple appendages. Andy, let me give you, rebuttal to that, which is a good way. Peter's voice is similar to my voice, right? Peter can talk, very consciously, Coach Hopkins' voice has, he says, I think, zero lines in the whole thing where he's not yelling. Yeah. Even in his quietest moments, if he's got to say, like, doctor, I feel sick,

he's saying, doctor, I feel sick. So it is a voice that you can. You can. You can't. You can't. You cannot connect to Peter. And ideally you can't even connect to me. It is simply coach Hopkins. That's fair. The thing is, though, is I actually think when I was watching Hoops, I was like, I just want you to play angry coaches for the rest of your life. Like, I would be satisfied if I just saw this every different sport.

I would be happy if it was live action, if it was animated, if we did some rotoscoping. It's funny you say that because I've wanted to. play a live action coach. Obviously not this vulgar. This is a very specific, R-rated adult animated thing that came to me. And I like Penn Hoffman. I like the show quite a bit.

When I say it's niche and I'm pushing it in a small direction, it's because if this finds the right audience, they're going to like it. And so I just don't want the people who will never like it to waste their time because I do think there's a group who will really like it.

But I've wanted to do a Walter Mathout type show where it's me and kids that can be R-rated and can be angry and a little, you know, vulgar, but actually have a lot of heart and actually have a message to it. And so this was the closest I've been allowed to get near that field. But it's an area that I think is just great.

Because I am now, as you said, and a very important Hollywood player, I really seek out entertainment on a different level. Now I look for truth, you know, in all things. And so what I'd love to hear from you, Jake, is what little pieces of Jake are in, Coach? Like what are you bringing from your own life and experience? On the other side of the ledger, I'm going to suggest that you are not bringing your deep-rooted history in Kentucky. That does not feel like lived experience to Jakey Jay.

You're right, Andy. Well, first of all, you know, another Hollywood type. to another Hollywood type. Let me just tell you I'm drinking kombucha because I'm that guy. Animals are drinking like diet coax. Hollywood actor types take care of. Oh, you're an animal.

You are disgusting, Andy. It's a pre-11 AM diet Coke for Andy. You are a great human full of chemicals. Me, I'm pure. If it's not raw, it doesn't go into this tubble. But what I will say about Coach Hopkins and connected to me, In all honesty, not very much.

You know, what I will say is when I was growing up, a little boy in the suburbs of Chicago, my mother, who's a tougher woman than I am, grew up in a much tougher house than I did, and she had nine brothers and sisters. And my uncles and my aunts were loud Chicago types that were very funny and very vulgar. and hearing my uncle Eddie getting a little drunk on Thanksgiving and doing a rant was the first time in my life I cry laughed. You know, people will say like when they first saw, you know, Bill Murray or Will Farrell or Tina Fey was the first huge laugh. For me, it was my uncles when they were sweaty and now looking back, nowhere near sober, running the room so that their mom was offended and mad at them. When it was my uncle Paul or my uncle Timmy telling a story,

and my grandma was telling him to shut up, the kids are around. And we were cry laughing, and then later would get back and as we got older, be like, that was really inappropriate. So all I'm really bringing to coach is that stuff to this day at 42, I still find really funny. I find it really funny being in the booth, doing one of these monologues about like another character's penis and respecting the size of it.

and watching the technicians and the producers looking down because they feel uncomfortable. I still find that as immature as it. That's more because you're not actually reading from a script. You're just actually like improvise. This is also before we started recording. How long do they let you run on your own material before they say, Jake, we pay by the hour here. Please read the script. No, not only that.

And they say, Jake, please go in the booth and get out of this recording area because you're not near a microphone. And I'm going, yours is a penis. I can respect. I imagine that you played sports as a kid, though, right? Thank you for saying that. You probably say that because of my physique, my alpha energy. Is that why? Yeah.

Well, I mean, I know that you were an undrafted free agent for the NFL in the mid-90s. And when you were reading my Wikipedia, what position was I? No, didn't you? But you seem like the kind of guy who played Little League, right? Like, I did sports until I was about 15. Right. That's around when I peat. Maybe I was like around 14.

I was like, unfortunately, you know, it was like me and LeBron and then LeBron just kept growing. By the way, 14 is probably more accurate. Yeah. It was when the other boys went through puberty and all of a sudden being like three foot nine was no longer funny on a basketball court, it was a huge disadvantage to our team. And, you know, I got a story and it's slightly different but also near the same zone. At my high school, we had a pool. And we were about 14, 15, and all the boys were in our little swing trunks.

And there was a 14-year-old boy next to me who had gone through puberty and had a man's body. And, you know, I was still on the same teams as him, but I had a boy's body. And he said while we were sitting next to each other, at one point, he goes, whoa, you don't have any hair on your legs. And at that point, everybody looked and they noticed, in fact, didn't. then the other kids ended up lifting up my arms to notice there was no hair under my armpits and I had one of those life moments that I still look back out like a real character defining moment what I could have done is said like I haven't gone through puberty gentlemen but what I chose was a genetic dysfunction from my family because I said yeah no man in my family has any hair

on their body. At that age, people bought and they went, really? And I went, yeah. My dad doesn't have any, none of my alcohol. They were like, wait, there's no hair in the armpits. And I went like, none of the men of my family have it. And it worked enough to divert the attention off of me. For that practice. Yeah. Is there anything more 90s, more pre-Google, than pleading powder to get out of bullying? They're like, I'm sorry, I'm a powder. I'm just like the popular film powder. I'll tell you, it was a gamble, and it was a gamble that paid off.

Because I do think we were about five minutes away from those guys ripping my shorts off and revealing my tiny bald penis. Ending, ending my life in high school, just ending me. And I didn't feel it was a little bit, you know, it was getting a little crazy. It was getting a little wild. The guys were getting pretty hyped up that I didn't have any hair. And once I said, the day. This was, and nobody understood genetics at that point.

I just said, no man has this. It wasn't funny to them anymore. No. Was it a little sad? Maybe. Was it confusing? You bet your ass it was. But what it did was, it just diffused it.

And five minutes later, we're talking about somebody else. And I sat there, realized, and I just sold out every male in my family. And I felt okay about it. Do you have younger brothers? I have an older brother. Okay, good. Because then, you know, Junior Johnson. His pants are getting ripped off.

Without question. Do you carry the junks and curse? Yeah. And then he would say, what do you mean? And at that point, some seniors would take his shorts off. And it would have just been a terrible 90s situation that would go unreported. Wow.

The thing I was noticing about hoops, this is not actually a serious question. But what it reminded me of was the coaches of my youth because I think now there's this thing where like coaches are cool. Like they're either really smart like Joe Madden or they're like a guy who's like, I'm going to have a mickleube and like I'm going to draw up a spread offense that you've never seen before because I just like to be an artist. But like my experience growing up, like I had a little league coach.

I'm going to, his name was Tom. Let's, I'm not going to do his last name. But I remember he was like this like urban legend in our neighborhood. Like if you went and got, if you got chose to play, chosen to play for like traveling all stars, you would go play for this guy. And he was brutal. If you missed a grounder, he would then hit five grounders in rapid succession as hard as he could right at your shins. It was absolutely traumatic, but it's literally one of the most memorable experiences of my life is playing Little League for this guy.

And I don't wish that upon anybody, but I still remember to this day, like things that he said. There used to be a thing, because I had those coaches too, that I was recruited to play lacrosse, my sophomore year of high school, and to be goalie. It was the first year of the program. And the way the coach got me to be less afraid of the ball was he just had all the players

shoot at me nearly the same time so that I can experience the welts on my legs and get over it. Yeah, scar tissue. There was a part of coaching that I personally in real life hope it goes away. I hope these people get weeded out because it's abusive. But not only was it okay, it was viewed as they care that much about you

that they're willing to abuse you to get you to win. Yeah. We are, look, Hoops is not. a smart show. And I say that as a fan of hoops. But we are making fun of that type. What we wanted to do with Coach Ben is he is abusive and he yells at these kids, but he's also a loser and they also lose. And what does that mean? Because we've got a line that says early on, like, you can't be an asshole and a losing coach. Because part of the thing about what made that guy of that traveling team work is that the kids want. Yeah. And winning used to really matter in Little League until you realize

that like it doesn't equate to happiness or wealth or anything. You just won it nine years old. What I also appreciated about the show is that it really captures the fact that kids who are playing sports for the most part just want to get through the day or get through the season or check off an extracurricular. And they want Coach Ben because he doesn't actually make them do anything. He just yells a lot and occasionally but gives them porn passwords. And I think that's an underrated thing because not everyone,

who has to play like a way team basketball or whatever in the 10th grade has the eyes of the tiger. They're not all dialed in. You know, the pitch that got me to like and want to do this show was Coach Ben's Big Hope is on a seven-foot kid who just happens to be a giant but that the kid doesn't care about basketball. And I do think there's something really funny slash sad. And I've stopped doing it at 42 because enough people told me that they didn't like it. But whenever I'd see like a super tall person, I would always say when I was less seasoned as a human, I'd always go like, oh, cool, you're 6'10.

Do you play basketball? Oh, yeah, they love that. And watching people who are just not athletic go like, I don't. And I'd be like, oh, because you could probably dunk in there, though. I've heard that a hundred thousand times. But in the meantime, it's just incredibly uncomfortable to fly coach for me. So thanks.

I got to tell you, when I jogged, my niece really hurt. And my back hurt. So I didn't have to be like, oh, yeah, because you could be a power forward. And you know, fuck off. So I like the idea of the pitch of this like, and, you know, coaching the show is 5'7, but I pitched very hard for him to be under 410. There's something very funny to me. And like, even the NBA, like, you know, Tom Tibado, you know, like, he gets it, right?

And he's talking to a player and he's like, all strong. And then you see this. This is me. You got him a bitch. You know, it's like little men talking to these like huge men, and the huge men, you don't have to go like, oh, okay, I got you. Sounds pretty good. It's bolster. Like, oh, that's another theory you've got at five, nine and a half of what I should do down low?

Great. Give me the ball and get out of here. And so that game of it seemed pretty fun to me to at least start this project. The other amazing thing about hoops, about its presence in our life. in your life is that you may have cracked the pandemic because you're on an animated show right now and you could probably keep working, which is not so bad. Have you done a lot of recording for the show in your self-made DIY end-time bunker or no? You know, I like to refer to this place as my hotbox with an ant problem. It's catchy. One thing J.K.J. did not figure out was how to catch that

cross breeze. Oh, no. Jackie J. made a big mistake. Day one of being. and finished was I ate a bunch of like chips in here and I was not careful about it. There's a significant ant problem. And I got to say, I think the ants feel like this is more their place than mine. Yeah, I'm going to say, I bet the ants are probably like we have a Jakey J problem. Yeah, because for them, and this is the battle I go through in my head with these ants is I've like tried to kill them. And now, I mean, look, I'm pouring cinnamon around just to try, because I know they don't like it. In my core, a part of the, part of me feels like I went to their house and built my little dumpy cabin. They're not in my

real house. So at a certain point, fuck off, Jakey Jay. You want to come live with the ants. You act like an aunt. Hence the black shirt. If you saw my whole body, I'm head to toe black. As soon as I hang up, I wear the mask, I've got the stuff, and I'm crawling in the corners looking for crumbs because I need them to respect me. Do you try to prove that you are disproportionately strong for your body size? Do you walk around with large, like novelty-sized sugar cubes and be like, I got this.

I also try to show to them that just like, you're just a worker and your life isn't valuable, only the leader is. So I try to show that, like, in terms of my life, like my life, the value of life around here, my dogs, it just doesn't matter. It's all nothing. We're just like you guys.

We're just here working, but secretly, I'm trying to form a union. Yes. If I can get all these ants together against, you know, the leader, ant, let's just get rid of that ant and work together, right? Yeah. But it's not really the way ants work.

What's the break room like for ants? Are you guys just hanging out, looking at Redfin at different hills? Yeah. So essentially, it sounds like that, but it's not. The break room is right now them crawling on me and me pushing them off and putting cinnamon everywhere. But I'm hoping we get to the world of we're looking at the computer together. I don't want to pride, Jake.

As you know, we like to have fun on this podcast. You know, we like to keep it light. I am curious when the last time you saw your family in the big house was. And if they mind you smelling like a holiday themed latte. Yeah, it's funny you say that. The last time was when my wife said, this time it's for real, you're out. And my kids said, we view Greg more as a dad than you. And I said, like, it was something like that.

But like, we all kid in my family. We all love each other. Greg is a great guy. And my great dad to my daughters. and from the sounds of it, a wonderful lover to my wife. So we're all psyched, dude. He's also a bit of a bully, so he doesn't like when I leave this room. So I'm going to the bathroom in buckets.

I'm texting Greg, and when he lets me out, I, you know, clean up and clean on the hose, and we're good to go. So things are great. Things are 10 out of 10 over here. Is it bad? We gave Greg the Zoom password for this, and we've been waiting for the right moment to bring you in. Oh, God. What do you guys think of this NBA bubble?

I think it's working. I think it'll be interesting to see what happens when they start the first round of the playoffs and they bring guests, you know, and they start to bring the plus ones, family members or what have you. It'll be really interesting. But so far, it's actually like, it's how they're going to have to do pro sports if they want zero cases. What I'm really excited about it is this is the first time in a while, sports, are starting to feel like there's an underlying 90s tension that's building that I'm like,

ooh, these playoffs are gonna get really heated in a way that basketball was heated when I was growing up. Because if I put myself in their shoes, if somebody dunks on me to win the game and all of our peers are like screaming and talking trash to me, and then I have to go back to a hotel and everybody's still talking,

talking about it. And then I see that person and his friends are like kind of laughing. And then I read the posts and they're all school like teasing me about it. It's going to build without the distraction of like going home to your really nice home with your group as opposed to just like sitting in a hotel room. Yeah. The boss are going to get crazy. The first few games that they had there, there were so many texts because there was no crowd noise that they could hear all the trash talk.

And I think the refs were like, Jesus, what did you just see to that guy? Like, that's his mother you're talking about. She doesn't have any hair on her body. What are you doing? And I think it's going to get really interesting in a really fun way. Have you been watching baseball?

Have you been watching? Yeah, you know, I'm trying to. I'm not thrown as much as other people with the no crowds. it's just three hours is a long time to watch a game. The No Crowds thing is an unfair advantage for the Tampa Bay team and other teams. They're like, yeah, guys, welcome back to baseball. We call this baseball.

I feel bad for like the three Tampa fans are like, oh, man, I can't go to the stadium. What a fucking nightmare for me and my three cousins. I'll tell you something about the Cubs, which is wild, because I'm not at my match. I like Matt. I thought Madden was a great manager. He obviously won us our first championship in over 100 years. I also loved David Ross. He was one of our guys.

Funny David Ross story is I was at the Cubs game years ago with a buddy man. And I think I was throwing out the first pitch or doing something where I had great seats. Sure. Throwing out the first pitch of Wrigley, something like that. I can't remember. The only reason I dropped that is because I had great seats and it's part of the story. I don't remember what I was doing there. But I was in like the second row with like three of my friends.

The reason I don't remember is I was not sober. And a friend of mine had a huge beer, my buddy Clay. And David Ross, in the middle of the game, you know, was catching and was walking back to the dugout and looked over at Clay. And they made really intense eye contact. And it was one of those moments when you don't think the players on the field, because you're used to as a kid, you could like yell at them and they don't respond. You imagine there to be an imaginary glass wall where you're not actually right next

to him. And Ross just looked at my buddy Clay and goes like, it's a really killer beard, man. And my buddy Clay goes like, thanks a lot, David Ross. And Ross goes like, yeah, man, it's cool. And my buddy Clay goes like, thank you. And then David Ross kept walking. We were so thrown. Our little group of nerds didn't recover for innings because we're like, how, why? Was he thirsty? Do you think? What was his? No, I think he was just in the middle of a baseball game, regular season. He could do it in his sleep.

He finished the inning, got the last out, was walking to go take his gear off. He was probably like six up where he's like, I don't know if I'll hit this in it. Looked over, saw a huge beard and went like, it's cool, man, and just happened to say it out loud. Oh, do you say beard or beer? Beer. Oh, see, I thought he was admiring the sign of beers that everyone in the stadium had. And I thought that was like maybe a cry for help. No, that's really interesting that that story.

You thought he was some cool beer. I was like, what's cool about a big beer? Who's ever said that in the history of the United States? That's why I thought you're going to the story. And you were trying to tell us that maybe David Ross processes. The other thing that really threw me is I've just found out recently that thirsty means like you want to have sex with them. Yeah, first traps. Yeah.

So when you said, was he thirsty? I thought, where are you going with this, Andy? I'm not going down this road with you. Only one place. Let me ask you this, Jake. You are, for the purposes of this podcast, you are now the commissioner of baseball. Obviously, everyone is thirsty. Everyone has beards now.

That's just par for the course. But genuinely, as a baseball fan, what can we do about this? Because it's not working, and it does feel like it already wasn't working on such a grand level that then we have a coronavirus pandemic. Oh, you're saying baseball wasn't working before coronavirus? Baseball's not working. And it seems particularly cruel but also self-inflicted and ridiculous that there's a commissioner of baseball

whose attitude towards a viral outbreak is kind of like when that episode of Seinfeld when Kramer did movie phone and he was just like, why don't you just tell me what movie you want to see? Or like, the St. Louis Cardinals just aren't playing baseball anymore because they're all sick, but the other teams are like, we're good, we're good, we're just going to keep running. and then the Phillies have to play 50 games in 53 days,

but some of the games are seven-inning double-headers. It's like, what are we even doing here? So virus aside, how are we going to get baseball back, coach? So here's what I would do. First of all, I would stop changing the rules. What people like, but honestly, and I feel this way about the NFL is losing me too. There's something that's happening with professional sports where they think what we like about it is that it keeps changing.

that's the opposite of what fans like. What I like about sports is that it's the same. And the rules don't change since forever. And it's how these guys play this game. So I would make it as traditional. And if it's slow-paced and if it's boring, fine. If the pitcher needs time, give them time. Take your stupid shot clock out.

It doesn't make sense. The National League does not need the DH and what have you. The other thing that I would do in a really big cultural shift is the, and it goes against the first thing I said, let the players' personalities come out. What people like about sports are big personalities. It is not disrespectful to the game of baseball to watch a home run. If the pitcher feels like it is, we'll let the pitcher try to self-police because as a fan, that's fun to watch. If a hitter hits the ball, takes the bat, throws it up in the air like the guy's doing like the Korean League, it flips around 100 times and falls. Then he walks the first base, going on the way. Well, I'm probably going to die laughing.

And then the next time he's up at the picture, hits him in the back, I'm going to die laughing again. Then if there's a big fight, take the guys who fought, kick him out, and continue the game. I don't think the league needs to get involved. I don't think there needs to be big statements of less personality. I would like more flair. I would like these young guys to show who they really are. I mean, look at the wild thing for Major League. Let's have pictures who are characters.

It's really true because if you poll the fans of all major sports leagues and you're just like, what are the family feud style, right? For the poll, like what do you like most in professional sports? Stoicism would not be in the top tag. Yeah, I've never like, I really need you to respect the game. Well, here's why they're so hypocritical. It's respect the game while we continue to change the rules to make it more entertaining. It's like the NFL having a whole period where players were not allowed to celebrate a touchdown. You work so hard. There's so much pressure

for a wide receiver, which is what we all love about wide receivers, is the amount of shit talking they do and the amount of characters they are. So what I want to see from my ochosinkos of the world is when he gets in the end zone, hand the ball to the referee and run to the sideline quietly? Fuck, no. I would like to see a 20-minute choreographed. If they can push out ice and the players could ice skating on and they did it on ice, even better. Do that as opposed to your terrible halftime shows. Let the players have fun. If players want to talk a little trash, I'll tell you what it should not be an instant penalty. A player saying to another player, we smart. We smart. We smart. your ass because we're better than you. Stop penalizing that. Let him talk trash. Let him shove each other.

If somebody starts hitting if you miles Garrett's the situation, yes, kick that person off. If a guy, two guys are shoving at each other and it's making the competition feel greater, why are we stopping that? So I think the commissioners of these league have to actually realize why people like it. I hate in the NFL, I don't know what the rules are anymore. I hate that in baseball it keeps changing every time I watch there's a new rule

What's interesting is that this is the same dynamic Max Greenfield said that you brought to the set on New Girl the same kind of like you know keep the hands off the face

but otherwise you can push you could shove Oh by the way and all actually it is true because what I do believe on set

is right before action you know like actors have little rules of like never talk to somebody right before I'm like no all

that's wrong. You're supposed to mess with each other. It is my hope that an actor screws up their lines in their coverage because it's hilarious. It is my hope and a two shot. If I'm in a scene, and now if we're doing a common, if I'm doing a two shot with Max Greenfield, right before they call action when they say quiet on set, I will say, everybody here knows you don't know your lines. Everybody here knows you're not going to say righteous correctly. Watch what happens. What he tries to say it. He's going to screw it up. So when they call it, action, there's a new level of anxiety. That's the sportsmanship. And once he screws up, it's our job, or if I scrope, to then stay in it. I'm glad you specified comedy, because I was

going to let you know that that attitude might be why you didn't get the Adam Driver part in Lincoln. Well, I also heard, I mean, Tommy Hanks was doing this in Philadelphia. Tommy H. was just messing with the guys. Yeah, he's going up to Denzel and just being like, hey, don't fuck this up. It's T-cell, Denzel, it's T-cell. They were just killing each other. But that's if I was the commissioner. The only thing I would say,

I know that we don't want to make this into a baseball pod. The only thing I would say is that the rules are one thing, but I think I would try and figure out a way to dial back the amount of like, where can we squeeze a competitive advantage out of any margin of a rule that's going on to baseball? Because all the like the shifting that goes on

where if you're a lefty, seven guys are standing on the other side of second piece. Hate that. But hold on. Here's my question. Why do you hate that? Because for me, the shifts, it's like if you're playing a board game with your friends

or a card game, and then one of your friends starts playing poker in a certain way. Well, then you all have to adjust. Here's what I don't understand. Bunt the fucking ball every time. Those guys are, Reese Hoskins is not going to be like, I will bunt to opposite field.

That's not how he makes $25 million. His batted average could be $600. As opposed to 0.066. Nobody's going to put him on a Wheaties box with him. You know what they will do? When he beats Tycobs' batty. When all of a sudden you got it like Kyle Schwerber, everyone somehow lays down a bunt,

and the announcers will be like, well, they gave it to him, Swarber took it. The next time when he doesn't take it, I'm like, They're giving you a sand. I understand you want to steak dinner. Oh, the ants got him. I froze there on purpose.

I said some F-bom, so I've got a button on here. You're talking about how much you like Ty Cobb for a second. And not for his baseball ability, but the guy had some ideas. His personality seemed to be wonderful. Jake, man, thank you so much for coming on. Hoops is on Netflix this weekend. Everybody should check it out, just not with children or anybody who is offended by almost anything, but I really enjoyed it.

Really appreciate you giving us your time, man. Always great to you guys. Jake, we're happy you found a new community in your new home there, though they're not human. Yeah, and Andy, have a good time at the Academy Awards. Say hi to Tommy Hanks and all the big stars for me. I'm going to get right up in their face. Mix it up.

What's up, Tommy? It's your boy, Andy, Jake. All right, thanks so much to Jake Johnson. Hoops is on Netflix this weekend. Please watch that. Let's get into me and Andy's second installment of our Lonesome Dove Deep Dive taking in the second episode of the miniseries

and the second sort of chunk of Larry McMurtry's novel, let's go. Andy, how long do you think you could go without water? This is how you're starting? That's how I'm starting our second conversation for Summer of Dove, Lonesome Pie. We're talking about Lonesome Dove, the novel,

Lonesome Dove, the miniseries. We're covering what the events that take place in the second episode of the miniseries. But I will say, Andy, this is where the sort of you separate the wheat from the chaff a little bit and I don't mean to call the series chaff at all but the narrative and psychological complexity

and depth of what happens in this sort of second act of the book versus what happens in the second episode of the show is astonishing is it's astonishing and the attachment that you build for characters that really come to the four in the second two 300 pages of the novel you can watch it and you can feel it. But there's only one moment in the show

in the second episode that I felt was almost as emotionally resonant for me as the stuff you see in the books. And that is to get sort of to the end first is the burial of July's traveling party. I just thought that was such a gorgeous shot and such a gorgeous performance from Deval and Chris Cooper. And that is like really like, in my mind,

it's one of the moments that I remembered from the first time that I watched the series that it stuck with me over the years. But don't you agree that this is really where the depth of the novel kind of collides with the sort of, we got to get through this of the miniseries. When you talk about how magnanimous McMurtry is as a writer, I think the first thought is that you're talking about just how voluminous he is. Like these books are just so long and they just seem to spill out of him. And we keep referring to this Texas monthly piece where it talks about how once he bought the rights back to the screenplay, it didn't take him that long to write the book, he claims.

you know, it just poured out of him. But what I would say, what I'm talking about how magnanimous he is, what I really mean is the depths of feeling that he has for his characters and also the, I mean, I'm just going to say it since clearly we're all friends here, almost the literary bravery he shows in his treatment of them. And respect, even in mourning them after he himself has killed them. Yeah. He loves these characters.

And so the despair that we as readers feel, is almost overwhelming because you are so fully immersed in who they are, even with just a few short paragraphs, where they are emotionally, what drives them, what they want, what they think is possible in the world. And when we talked about the first part of the novel and the miniseries,

we were joking a little bit, but basically said like the snake attack is the moment where you're like, oh, no, oh, this is going to be something different than what I thought. This is not triumphant. This is brutal. I was not prepared for the entire segment of Lorena's capture, her treatment,

Gus's heroism, but mostly what would happen to Roscoe and Joe and Janie. Because it's the thing that only really skilled storytellers can do, which is exploit the most vulnerable part of you as a reader or a watcher, which is your desperate hope to protect people. Yeah. And then to attack that directly and surgically, but not in a way that feels manipulative. Because the lesson of this second piece is that this world is unforgiving,

this world is rough, and the worst possible things can and do happen. In fact, they will happen. And then what? And then what? You know, and just the amount of emotion packed into that whole segment I can't, I'm still not recovered from. And I think this is when I began to detach consciously uncoupled from the miniseries a little bit. because for all its good intentions and for its wonderful casting,

because Barry Corbyn, I mean, there could be, Barry Corbyn, shouts to Better Call Saul, by the way, even on this last season, that guy's still bringing it. You could not dream of a better casting for Roscoe, but also there's just not enough real estate for him or Janie to mean enough, so for their deaths to matter, if that makes sense. Yeah, you know, it's pretty faithful to the book. It's not that they're not covering things.

It's not that they're changing things up or that they've condensed. really anything. It's just that the experience that you have watching or reading along and, you know, if the first part of this book is essentially like a dozen characters who have arrived at a crossroads in their life, the second part of the book is multiple quests happening at once.

July looking for Elmira, Roscoe looking for July, Gus and Woodrow taking this herd north, but then Gus deciding he needs to go find Lorena after she's been captured. and it's exhilarating because that's that's the best part of storytelling is when you've got all these characters who have something that they want and they're doing something about it but almost every one of those quests fails in some way or another you know almost every one of those quests in this second part of the book you know the lorrainea that gus gets back

at least in the moments like the initial period after he rescues her is not the lorina that was captured and all these people who are out in the West looking for each other, find one another and then get killed for the most part. It's so brutal, but like what we're taught from such a young age from when we're just watching cartoons or reading or first experiences with reading through when we're watching movies for the most part of our lives, you just have this inner brain that's like, well, this is what's going to happen because that's who's playing this part. Now, I will say in this series, given the amount of screen time and the amount of

attention paid to people like Janie, you're just kind of like, that's probably, it's probably not going to work out for Janie. But in the book, in the book, you were like, is Janie the hero of this book? I don't know.

She's definitely the most resourceful, native to the land person who seems most ready to survive out here. She's already survived this awful relationship with this older man. And if you approach the western novels of Larry McMurtry the way one would approach a game of Dungeons and Dragons,

the people who don't write animals, are awesome. Like, Po Campo, Janie, if you read the sequel, Famous Shoes. Like, I love those characters.

So I feel, I think they're going to do better than they sometimes do. Can we make the argument that Janie and Po Campo invent farm to table dining? Yes. Yes.

Listen, let's literally farm to table the conversation about Poe Campo for a minute because maybe my favorite character in the book. For his love of, of Bizarre eats,

shouts to Andrew Zimmer. what you're speaking to about characters in this landscape. We have a tendency, we as people, right, to be unduly nostalgic about the past and in fact often flock to period pieces. And this is what things like Mad Men have attacked so well or criticized or critiqued and curious, in really compelling ways. We take comfort in them because they're settled, right? there's less of a threat because these things already happened and, well, humanity survived okay. Take it a step further, there's this constant adulation of previous generations, particularly like the greatest generation, because the assumption is, well, they were wired differently because when

country came calling or the Times came calling, they rose to the occasion and they defeated fascism in Europe or whatever the case may be. What this book does and what keeps us discomfited throughout the reading experience, even as we're loving it, is that to meet someone like Roscoe, who's just a guy, he just likes to drink whiskey, and he likes the town that he lives in, and he's fine. He goes fishing with Joe. And then circumstance and or peach make him go do something.

He is clearly not suited to do. Well, he's not going to rise to the occasion. He's not going to bumble his way into a victory. He's going to get killed in a savage, awful, unsentimental way, and that's the end of it. And it's such a profound shock to our sensibilities, right? Because we just desperately don't want that to happen, not just because of the character we've been introduced to,

but what we'd like to believe about ourselves. There's a couple of moments. I think there's one where Woodrow, it's either before they've left for their kind of long ride across the desert with no water, across the plains with no water. And Woodrow is having a memory or sort of just thinking about rangering in the 40s and 50s.

and 1840s and 50s, and the like the advancement and then collapse of frontiers and civilizations that he is, it was part of protecting.

And you really do get the impression in like the world of McMurtry that essentially once you stepped out of your house, you were,

you were likely to die. You know, and that is, Rosco is a guy who's like, I like to sweep out jails kind of amble around, but I live in this town.

I live in this sort of of like weird cocoon that is Fort Smith, Arkansas. It's a construct, but it works for him. It's a construct, but it worked for America. You know what I mean? Like, that is essentially was the premise, is that let's build walls, let's build houses, let's build society, and then all this other shit gets shoved off to the side. And I just thought it was like his character, his demise is so,

it's such a gut punch, not least of which, because I don't think he has any guts after his interaction with Blue Duck, but you're literally just in mid-paragraph and it's like Roscoe sees the shadow man, you know, and you're like, wait a second, no, no, no, this should be the end of a chapter or at the beginning of a new part, or this should have some ceremony to it. Or, and it does. You're not going to, do you remember in coming to America when they go into the project and they look on the floor and there's the chalk outline of the previous tenant and there's also another chalk outline and my guy says it's a damn shame what they did to that dog.

Yeah. That's lonesome dove. Yeah. Because even though we are beginning to be conditioned to the cruelty of the world, you don't believe that they killed the kid. You don't believe that the 12 year old boy who's like, this is all right. My mother hates me and I'm comfortable with that. But at least I get to go on an adventure is just going to have his head beat in.

and we're never going to hear from M or see him again. But that happens. You know, and the other thing about this segment, though, and I think it speaks to the appeal of this book as a popular entertainment, but I think it also speaks to something that we keep referring to as we discuss it, which is McMurtry's own ambivalence about this book in particular and what he contributed to the national discourse or understanding about the West, is that for as human and just sad,

as July's limitations are or Rosco's, Gus is a superhero in this section of the book. Yeah, it's the single most heroic thing that happens in the book is what Gus does in this section. And it's thrilling. I mean, you remember that McMurtry's a screenwriter and that a lot of this was a movie as well. And maybe he was thinking about this as, you know,

as what Jimmy Stewart was going to do to some degree. But the scene, I mean, he's single. He just rides off. And everyone's like, see you later. Well, up to this point, all those guys have done is, like, steal horses, pretty much. Yeah, we didn't know. We have no evidence of this sort of outsized reputation. You know, they have that moment where they go into the bar and he's like, you know,

Gus kind of beats up the bartender. He's like, you should show me some respect for what I've done for this part of the country and everything. But there's no action to point out where you're like, these guys, these guys are the real deal. And then Gus basically pulls the all-time hero ball move. Now, again, looking at this with a little bit of hindsight, you could read this section and be like, it's not necessarily that Gus is, you know, a superstar, superhero. It's that his opposition, Blue Duck accepted, because Blue Duck's an old head too. His opposition is kind of sad and pathetic, kind of like July's crew, just not up for this, not good at this, thinking it's a time that it's thinking it's still, a different time, right?

And that what Gus is capable of as a relic himself just isn't possible anymore. So in retrospect, you can kind of be like, well, he wasn't up against the toughest competition, I guess. Because you'll cut your own horse's throat to scare off the other horses with the rich scent of horseblood. And then ride into a kid. Also, he's just like, I mean, it's a little while where he's just like, well, okay, Sheriff Johnson, come with me. But I'm going to single-handedly shoot nine people. without breaking a sweat to rescue someone. And if we're really going to do this,

I should also add, not clear on Blue Duck's motives here. Like Blue Duck is a, maybe we should just pivot to a minute to talk about Blue Duck because... Yeah, I think we touched on this a little bit in the first episode, but Blue Duck is ostensibly the villain

of The Lonesome Dove, and yet I'm never really convinced of his, not his evil, but of his part as an antagonist in this book and in this show. And Frederick Forrest, obviously, is one of the all-time bummers, because I think, you know,

and they there had been talk about, I think what they wanted is somebody who was like Charles Bronson or something, right? Apparently, some of the actors thought Charles Bronson was booked and that he was coming to set. And then Frederick Forrest, who was a fine actor

and has been good in a lot of things, shows up. And apparently Duval was not having it. It was really rough on and relentless on it. And those guys are in apocalypse now together. I'm sure they've probably got some like poker debts that they needed to settle anyway. So I don't know if it was entirely

about Forrest's acting, but he's not done any favors. And there's like this whole thing in like the oral history where it's like, Frederick Forrest's agents were like, he's half Native American. And then they're like,

no, he's not. You know, like, so yeah. This is this, this is also the part, I mean, we could say this, that like they, to use a lonesome dove vesting metaphor, they gave it their all when they made the miniseries,

but they didn't have the horses. And sometimes quite literally. Like part of Blue Ducks thing where he runs into Gus, and they're sort of feeling each other out at the creek, and that's a very good scene. He then, in the book, creates an enormous distraction by setting the horses loose in the middle of the night,

the remuda, right? And then the cattle are loose, and there's a whole, and in the confusion, Lori is taken, and Newt gets knocked out and, et cetera, et cetera. In this, it's just like, Newt, you are a 17-year-old boy who's only crossed one river, go defend against the scourge of the West, and he gets knocked out, and then he takes her.

It's all just compressed storytelling in a way. that is kind of a bummer. But yeah, the Blue Duck thing, I mean, I guess the other thing is that when you're watching a filmed entertainment, it kind of wants to bend into the shape of a more familiar narrative where Blue Duck is literally the antagonist of the series, when in fact, a more like a broad reading of it is that Blue Duck kind of just wants to exist in this large space

the same way he always has, much like Call and Gus do, which is playing the, their outsized roles in this rough, enormous world. And they kind of stumble over each other and trip over each other. But in a weird way, they don't want to take each other out because they certainly don't. You know, like, Blue Duck's whole thing where he's just like, I'm going to bring this woman to you, and I'm going to lure the Ranger, but you guys go kill the Ranger.

And then when we have a chance to draw him out, I just won't be here. Yeah. It's a little strange. I think, I mean, it's, but the interesting thing without getting too into it is that we never get the confrontation with Blue Duck. There's never like this huge battle with Blue Duck. And that is probably way more true to life and way more the way things kind of played out in the West.

It wasn't always like this guys, you know, hold up in this saloon and we're just going to shoot it out for the last 20 minutes in this movie. It's like, no, he disappeared and we never found him. Also, it's not war. I mean, in theory, they're just trying to move some cattle, you know, and then there's just a lot of other stuff going on. they're getting in their way.

What else about the... I mean, the other thing that we should talk about, I think, that gets a little bit of a short shrift in the miniseries is the slide of Jake Spoon. You know, we spend a lot more time with Jake and Lori in their little tent, you know, in lightning storms and afterwards as he gets increasingly fed up with doing this.

He just wants a nice bed. and he wants women to be nice to him and take care of him. And we maybe understand a little bit more the internal, all of it that allowed him to leave her. When it's laid bare in the miniseries, obviously streamlined, he seems pretty villainous. You know, it's pretty unconscionable what he does. And then his continued slide just, it just sort of happens almost effortlessly. Yeah, I think that the idea is that this adventure tests the metal of the characters involved. and even if they die, you learn a lot about them.

And Jake just seems like a guy who was never really ready for prime time, who would kind of always... Unlike Bob Eric. But kind of posted on the coattails of Call and Gus's reputation and just being a ranger and it kind of gotten a lot in his life. But it's essentially always outrunning debts and bad luck and bad news that follow him from town to town and that he is definitely responsible for. I mean, the whole, the sort of triggering event of this entire series is Jake kills a dentist in Arkansas and on the lamb comes down to Texas and makes an offhanded comment about how he had done some scouting for the army in Montana.

And that basically starts this entire adventure. That one gunshot with the elephant gun or buffalo gun or whatever it is is the butterfly wing that changes so many people's lives. Exactly. So many people's lives. The other thing that's worth track, go ahead, please. No, I was just going to say, and that in the novel, it's much more. sort of like Father's Son, Holy Spirit, where the new Jake and Gus are all sort of in their own way vying for Lorena's affections. And they are all at these different points in the spectrum of,

you know, understanding what it, what being in love with someone really is. And for Jake, you know, it's obviously she's just another thing that he has in his life, like whiskey and cards. And he only is interested in her in so much as she makes him feel good. And if there's anything else, he gives her a slap and he's a piece of shit. Newt is idealizing her and he's just like in love with her and he just can't, you know, he's like, that's her, his first real, you know, attraction. No, dish. I'm sorry. That's my bad. Well, Newt has a lot of feelings for her too, but they're more comfortable. Yeah, I mean, they both do. But and then Gus is obviously this almost like

quasi-paternal figure, but is like only 98% there with her because I think that there's still that two percent that's, that's for somebody else that will. get to. One of the things that I love about McMurtry in general is that he just doesn't give a fuck about what is supposed to happen, which is why, though he loves movies, he is a novelist through and through, because you're reading the book and even seeing the way it's playing out, like, Dish is pining for Lorena, and Jake sucks. Dish should win her, right? Like, Dish should have a chance, but that does not happen. It doesn't happen. And that's a lot more like, like, Lerna. But it's just it's another one of those little things that doesn't bend the way you expect it to bend and then you spend so much time with it you almost come to respect it and admire that choice

You mentioned newt Newt Newt's paternity is given a little bit of short shrift here as well because one of the things that you know when you spend a lot of time in his head in the book Is that he kind of hopes his dad is is Jake Right like that's a possibility Jake's always been the guy who treats him the best or makes him feel the best yeah and so then when he's comes back drunk and blames him for losing Lorena, like that is, that's a huge, huge thing. But like with everything, you know, TV, shorter running time starts to kind of smooth things over. And so the Gus Lorena

relationship, which is fascinating, because if you're reading the book, they're in no way equals. He's an older man who is buying sex from her. I mean, I don't want to suggest otherwise. But he treats her in a different way than other people. And she speaks to him in a way that she doesn't speak to other people. And there's some connection there that is fascinating and not in any way traditional. The fact that she projects onto him and in some ways falls in love with him because of his rescue is a lot more complicated, I think, in the telling in the book, whereas here, it's Bobby Duvall striding around in a creek. You know what I mean? It's just like he's the star of the picture. And it's played very much like a love story. And she's going to be in love with him.

which is less interesting, although fun to watch, because they're both beautiful, great performers. I will say, sometimes I think we love the books so much that we're a little critical of the show. Oh, I am. Midi series. Duval's fucking incredible, man. Like, Duval, I wouldn't go so far as to say

that this is his last great performance because I'm sure he has others, but... Well, there's the judge, for example. Well, but here's the thing, is that that's a good example of Duval kind of like in his you pay for what you get on Bobby Duval here I am on set

like we're going to do these seven scenes and then I'm let's go like when you see Robert Duval in the paper he's really good but he's not good the way he is in Lonesome Dove you know and I have no doubt that he really was like I'm in the paper's a good movie like I'm enjoying

myself I'm happy to play a supporting role in this movie but Jesus man some of the stuff he does in Dove and he's still has enough youthful vigor that you buy him as the guy who outruns half a dozen pursuing vigilantes and creates a horse fort in the middle of nowhere, right? Absolutely. And one of the reasons why, if not the reason why, that the miniseries is so beloved,

is the way that he and Tommy Lee Jones complete each other and their performances. I mean, it is, it's so many things, but it's also it's a classic buddy comedy in a lot of ways. You know, one guy is humorous and thoughtful and reflective and seat of the pants and the other guy, you know, has never cracked a smile in his life. And yet they need each other to balance each other out and to get things done. Someone has to sit on the porch and drink. Someone's got to do the work. They clearly, this isn't inside baseball. This isn't just from reading the stuff behind the scenes.

They clearly enjoy each other's company as performers, not just as characters. And they bring something to the surface that isn't always there in the book. And I think people have pointed to this that, like, again, obviously you had to tie it off in a different way and build something in a different way than you would in a 900-page book. But, like, Tommy Lee Jones smiles more in the first two episodes of the miniseries than Call does in four books. Right. And it's kind of necessary, I guess, because otherwise, I mean, like, Call in many ways sucks. Like, he's not that great of a guy. He doesn't know how to be a full person.

And it's only kind of spending. All he knows how to do is work. And when you spend time in his head, you feel him run up against his own limitations in a way that makes him a more sympathetic, if not empathetic figure. But when it's him and Duvald riding along and Duval's just lecturing him on why he sucks and how he has to be nicer and you should say women's first names, even if they're ladies of the night. Like, it's a fuller, rounder picture that draws you in. And those are, without question, that's the highlight of the show when they're on screen together. Yeah, it's a different experience. And I think that I had this idea in my head from my early viewing of the miniseries when I was younger that that was the relationship with these two people who sort of, you know, had very different worldviews or did things in very different ways, but were essentially best friends.

And they are best friends, but not in the way that, like, you and me are best friends. Like, like, they, they are work friends in a lot of ways. And Call does not. laugh it up in the bar when Gus lays that bartender out in the book. He thinks it's a waste of a bullet when he shoots the glass. That doesn't mean I don't love the scene. Yeah, the scene is great.

It's different. It is different. And Tommy Lee Jones, it's interesting because Tommy Lee Jones, you think of as a very, I mean, I definitely think of him as a call type guy. Like, he seems like a very, like, hard guy. But he plays call in this miniseries

almost more warmly than I read him on the page. does that what effect does it have on your reading of his performance when I remind you that he was the same age we are now when he filmed it. Dude, I don't want to talk about it. Also, I almost sent you a text message about kind of being like not not intrigued by Robert Duval's hairpiece, I guess, but just being like, that's kind of a cool look. Just like the wisp of blonde on top. we got two pieces of business to finish this segment on. We're going to get to Po Campo in a second. Any thoughts on the great, she was part of our child growing up in movies, the great Glenn Headley as Elmira and the Great Lost Rap name Biggs Way

and the earliest, maybe one of the first appearances on screen of Steve Bussemi. Man, Elmira. This is sort of the other side of the coin from what we were talking about earlier where in the book, we're introduced to, to Janie and Roscoe and Joe in July, and their journey seems as important as the Hat Creek journey across the plains. And you're like, this has to have some this huge significance.

And then when they die, you're like, fuck. Maybe nothing has significance. And I wonder whether or not El Mair, I don't really, I've never really gotten my head around what El Maira's journey is supposed to be. And what it's supposed to mean. Like I definitely follow it avidly. Like across the book,

I was never bored by it per se, although I think that she is, would you say that she's unlikable? Well, what I like about her and I like about her creation and her presence in the book is that Larry, and this is in the 80s, this is when we weren't having

more nuanced conversations about is a female character who rejects her son, unlikable or whatever. Like, he runs right at that. And in a way, her dream is no less absurd.

than Woodrow Call's dream. In fact, it's more deep-seated than his dream of putting cattle in Montana. Sure. She just wants to see D. Yeah. She wants to be happy. She just doesn't want to be where she is. She doesn't want to be reduced to the circumstances

that life has given her as not just as July's wife, but just as a woman in this world. And so she's like, I'm going to get what I deserve, which is, you know, any hero's journey. to get there, she gives up a lot. And again, you know, Call's ignoring his kid too. Sure. Yeah.

No, I thought like Woodrow calls a super cool hang. I don't need to set you up as the straw villain of this. But that aspect of it, you know, for her and Lorena as two women who have, who are dangerous because they want things, you know, and the lengths they go to get them and the lessons that they are unfortunately taught along the way about what's possible, I think are really important correctives to the larger myth-making of the West.

And again, we're not really going to talk specifically about the follow-up books, Streets of Laredo, but like El Mira's arc feels a lot more, like, that's more Laredo. That's more of where Larry wanted to be going

or what he kind of wanted to say once he shook free of the Hollywood movie that inspired this. I almost wonder if the juxtaposition between Elmira and Rosco, for instance is really intentional because Elmira is singular in her vision and is not making any sort of pit stops for humanity along the way.

Whereas Roscoe in July are constantly kind of being like, well, I got to go help this person because that's just the way that society works and they wind up paying a price for it. I also, before we wrap up here, I do wanted to shout out my favorite character, Po Campo. Absolutely. It is another... The Grasshopper King of Texas.

It is another, I think, I'll say it, failing of the miniseries, but also a failing that McMurtry set up, which is, and that he remedied, I think, to a great degree in Streets of Laredo and the other books. There's not much room for other, others in this story. You know, whether they're Native Americans or their Mexicans, it's just not their story. The camera's not as interested in them.

Just as the way I would argue it's not really, really as interested in Lorena and Elmira as McMurtry himself is. So when you have Pocampo on screen, there's a little bit of like, oh, this magical wise man is going to toddle along with him. And some of that's in the book, too. But what I want to communicate to people is people have listened to me talk on this podcast for over eight years now. And they know that I'm a complicated grasshopper.

I love samurai gourmet and I love zero zero zero. Po Campo is the distillation of my interests. He is a fellow who, in the same conversation, will say, this is a wild onion, this is hail, and I'm going to put molasses on it. And by the way, grasshoppers are good to eat. And then say, my wife is in hell because I sent her there. This man contains complexities. You know, he is at once a food network fantasy. and like a character cut from a James Crumley novel

because he was too extreme. Right. And I love it so much. And it's also there's a greediness that you can do in books that you can't do in TV. You can't just do 20 minutes of eating or cooking. Right. There's no room for it, nor is there room for like,

there's a moment like in this section of the book where McMurchy is just like, you know what? I'm going to add six more characters. Yeah. Because why not? If we were doing Lonesome Dove now as like a HBO Mac show. And it was,

and they did an episode. where these guys were all kind of concerned they were gonna, they've been eating old beans and tortillas and they, you know, bowl had gone back to Texas. And they were like,

what are we gonna eat? This sucks. And this is the episode. And then Po comes along and is like, here's the bounty of this land. If you only looked down off of your horse to see it. And it was just like the smitten kitchen out in the west. I don't know that.

I mean, we might be like, dude, why are they wasting time with this? What are they going to get to Blue Duck? But at the same time, That's the stuff in the book that you're just like, oh, my God, man, I could just hang out here for pages and pages and pages. It's so rich. And it's worth saying then in defense of the miniseries, which I agree. And I don't know if I expect this going in.

But because we love the book so much and we watched it in that, we experienced it in this order, we are much more critical of the miniseries than probably a lot of our listeners are who saw it first. Well, no, I want to say one thing is that for as much as we may knock it for it being a little anachronistic or some of the things that haven't aged well, the landscapes, that is what I think this looked like. That is like the outdoor stuff that they do, the stuff that they do with the horizon, the way Texas looks at different times of day, the perfect moment of dawn, you know, that they capture them routinely.

And especially the set piece of Gus outrunning Blue Ducks guys, I think that's just, it's still pretty fucking awesome all these years later. it is and you know considering the challenge of turning something 900 pages into something six hours Whitliff did the guy who adapted it I mean he did it right I was going to rail against the Wilbarger or Razor for example like Willbarger a great supporting character and presence in the book who comes back when you least expect it totally gone from the from the show but of course he is like that's the right call you don't actually need that character you need to focus on the characters

as you already know, you know, similarly with like the, you know, the cattle going wild because of the blue duck, like you can't do it. So pick your spots. And they picked the right spots. It's just worth remembering that if you want to know what came between those spots,

you've got a 900-page brick you could pick up. And it's worth, it's worth expanding your journey with it. Absolutely, man. All right. So, Andy, we'll do on Monday's show. We'll do the third episode. And then on following Thursday, we'll do the fourth episode.

I hope people are enjoying this. If you guys have questions, we'll set up a post in the Facebook page if you want to do mailbaggy kind of ones of dove questions. I hope people are following along with this. It's really fun to talk about. We love doing this,

so even if you're not listening. Giddy up. Talk to you later, man.