The Watch - 'Industry' Season 2 Finale, 'House of the Dragon' Episode 5, and 'Atlanta' Season 4

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

Chris and Andy break down the Season 2 finale of 'Industry,' reflecting on the season as a whole and where the characters might go from here (1:00). Then, they talk about how 'House of the Dragon' is starting to feel static (36:35), before talking about the first few episodes of the fourth and final season of 'Atlanta' (51:30). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I have some good news for you. The hottest take. It's back. Oh, yeah. Monday through Thursday, four times a week you hear from me. Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy, Mallor Rubin, Wazding Lambray, Van Lathan, June Lippman. Many other ringer staffers. You get one take. You got a defendant to the death. Sports takes. Pop culture takes. Food takes.

Airplane takes? Oh, yeah. It's coming back. First episode drops. August 29th. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, Gucalcumabab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment,

your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. This podcast is just a means of getting the poison out. It's Andy Greenwald. I can't, usually when you say things that I feel like people won't get,

I'm a little concerned because, you know, I'm all about audience outreach, building the brand. In this case, it's probably for the best. Let me tell you something. If you're listening to The Watch podcast in the Year of Our Lord 2022 and me quoting Rishi after a sexual dalliance in a bathroom stall is like over your head? I don't really know what to do.

There's no cliff notes for this. That's fair. There's no spark notes. Spark notes? Is that where we're doing now? I don't do any of it, but that sounds right. You were never a cheater when it came to school, were you? Were you? Did you ever cliff note it? You're an English major.

No, no, no. That was a creative writing major, dog. It's different. Can't cheat yourself, you know? When the fiction is flowing from you, you can't cheat that. That's just the natural river of story. I like it when you talk about your college experience, like you were on a hundred-foot wave. Like, that was what it was like for you up at Emerson. And you were reading like 17th century epistolary novels.

Yeah, and they've really come in handy. That's true. They've really come in handy. Greenwald, today we're going to talk about the season finale of industry, which just aired if you're listening to us on a Monday night. Otherwise, hello Tuesday. We're still talking about industry. We're also going to talk a little bit about House of the Dragon, episode five.

and the first two episodes of the fourth season of Atlanta, which aired last week, and they're up on the Hulu streaming platform. It's great to see you. It's great to be here in Los Angeles talking to you. Do you want to get right into industry, or do you have any news or notes you want to get over? Oh, should I do a little bit of programming first?

I think programming is great. Let's do a little housekeeping. On Wednesday at midnight, as the clock chimes. I will be asleep, but please continue. Andy will turn into a pumpkin. We are going to release an episode of the podcast, dedicated entirely to Andor, the new show from Disney Plus,

the prequel to Rogue One, created and written by, or executive produced and created by Tony Gilroy and co-written. He wrote a bunch of the episodes. His brother Dan wrote a bunch of the episodes. Bo Willemann wrote some episodes. We think the show is amazing. I think it's just a fantastic piece of work,

and we were so lucky to get Tony Gilroy to come on the pod and talk to us about it. So the episodes for Andor go up Wednesday at midnight, the podcast will be there for you. And that is, I think, a hallmark of the kind of steadfast support we offer. The world of pop culture is like when something happens, we have a pre-recorded podcast ready to go up at midnight. When we like it. Yeah. Is the embargo over?

Can we talk about it? No, the review embargo is Tuesday. And I dare not taunt Chepec. No. I think definitely, Bob, Chafek would be mad to get good press from us today. You're right. I think we should be protective of the Bob whenever possible.

There's something going wrong with Disney today? Today? No. No. But that guy lives in the triage ward. You know what I mean? Like, he's only alive. He's at his best when he's in a foxhole.

He doesn't even feel alive until the stock price drops 200. I will say, I will say that you can draw your own conclusions then. No. It's not a review to say we love it. Right? It's just an expression of enthusiasm. Oh, okay. Because let's just say that. We love it. We love what we've seen so far, and we're going to be talking about it extensively in the next couple of weeks. But we have this awesome episode to share with you on Wednesday, which is us talking with Tony Gilroy, and we'll share some thoughts on Andor as well.

Let's get into another show that we love. Possibly, the only thing I love more than intergalactic rebellions is people getting arrested for cocaine possession, but not for intent to distribute. And also not for drunk driving. Well, also, I mean, apparently the Pierpoint business car just gets you out of everything, you know? Do you think that's what was happening? I thought it was more like a leverage. He was just like, you have to come with me because you don't want to lose your job. Yes. But I also felt like there was a little bit of a like, I know you're an important, not an important person maybe, but you just like you have like a job.

You have a, you know, like we're just going to throw you in the drunk tank and kind of make up the numbers here. I love that you're starting with this. So here's a question for you, Chris. It's hardly the most important thing to happen, but it was one of the most heartbreaking things. I love the episode. I love the season. I love the series.

And nothing Bob JPEC or his team of ferocious attack dogs' attorneys could do to take that away from me. I just loud and proud. You know, I don't ride a lot of motorcycles, Chris. I don't really go in for the accompanying fashion. But my one perception of the motorcycle kit, if you will, is a lot of clothing with a lot of pockets.

Do you get what I mean? Generally, when you see people riding a hog, is that right? Yeah. They got leather jacket with pockets, they got straps and pouches, they got cargo things, they've got under the seat.

What I'm saying is there are options for Roth. Sure, sure. There are options. Like, you could secure the bag in any number of metaphorical senses, not just in your wallet, literally tucked in with your driver's license. That's my only point.

This isn't even a quibble with the writing. This is purely just life advice for my guy who can't win no matter what he does. So the reason why I made that joke in the first place to bring up Rob, and this was an episode that essentially killed the children of this show. Like I said, if you imagine Harper, Yasmin, and Rob as the three kind of kids that are raised by Peerpoint in the first season. introduced through this sort of incoming class. Are you considering Gus as part of this generation?

A little bit, yeah. Yeah. Although Gus arguably winds up on the top of the mountain by being the farthest away from Beerpoint possible. For real. It's the only place worse than the conservative British government to be, I guess. I was just really fascinated by, you know, if you look at showrunners as gods, how they treat their kids.

And I've been really kind of consumed with thinking about like what is, is there a morality to industry? Because I think part of the reason why I was drawn to in the first season was the almost absence of one. The things that happened in the show seemed to happen because they happened, not because they should or shouldn't happen.

There was nobody putting their finger on a scale to say, this behavior should equal this outcome ultimately. Now, we can argue whether or not that did happen to Harper at the end of this season, right? of had been running in the red so long that like there was a going to be a comeuppance for that. There was going to be a reckoning for that.

But did you, do you think about industry in those terms much when you're watching? Well, I think the last two weeks have been an interesting case study for that question. And I think that the, or if it's a test case, I think that Mickey and Conrad have passed with flying colors. I think the show absolutely has a moral compass. Yeah. I mean, that is the succinct way of saying what I was trying to get out. No, but it does not have a judgment of its characters.

It has a great deal of empathy for its characters. And I think that, in addition to some character stuff that I think we're going to get into throughout this episode as we talk about some shows that are a little bit light in that department. I think it just has deep empathy for its characters. And I really admired the way. And we'll have time, I'm sure. We've been talking about the structural, actually not even in. The structural, just the solidity of this season. But I think what was really remarkable to me was the fact that they've presented us with a world that is, yeah, totally opaque to us on one hand, because I still don't really understand what shorting means.

I keep meaning to Google it, you know, but there's just, you know, football's back. There's a lot going on. It's a universe where these people are, it's such an imperfect universe for these people to be working out their very deep issues. Because you know what it reminds me of? a world that I understand a little bit better, but I'm equally a little bit terrified of, the robust world of improvisational comedy. Because there's really one rule, right,

for those of us on the outside that we understand, which is you never say no. You say yes and you build on it, and you build on it, and you build on it. And I think that rolling with something, the way these characters have rolled with the very tenuous morality of PurePoint and of their nightlife shenanigans,

has allowed them to think that they had a play there, that they always had a place there, that they themselves were deserving of fighting in this arena. But as soon as any of them say no, and I'm thinking particularly of Yasmin, but also Rob's lesson as well in this episode, if any of them push back, if any of them try to dig in their heels, if any of them don't go along with the game, it's savage, right? It's absolute blood sport. Yeah. Think about that moment when Rob gets the phone call from Nicole on the floor. He's pretty much living in the land of the dead. It's like Rishi DVD,

like all these people who kind of don't work at Pierpway anymore there. Yeah. He is essentially like tied to this woman. And even though there is an open investigation or at least talk of like an inquiry into like Nicole's predatory behavior, they're just like, that's too much money. You got to take it.

Everyone and everything has a price. And in a world where everyone and everything has a price, everyone and everything can be used as currency. And we saw that with people we care about as the audience in terms of certainly Rishi, DVD, maybe to a degree. And then we saw that ultimately when Eric spends his Harper card. So what's Eric's price then? Well, I think we should separate that out.

Because I think that the broader strokes of this season, and since we're on the finale, it's probably worth going a little bit macro, this is an incredibly successful TV show. And I am deeply annoyed that there hasn't been a press release yet announcing renewal for season three. I have no inside information. We haven't talked to Mickey and Conrad about it. I would be shocked if it's not renewed. But this is the sort of show that when it makes a leap like this, you should be out on Front Street after episode six being like, hey, guess what? Get the fuck on board now. Right. Because this is a show built to last. And I think that the structural changes that we've observed, we've noted we've talked about in terms of like a studying, studying Mad Men or

studying, you know, more established TV shows or just, you know, bringing everyone into Tiny Town a little bit more with their personal and professional obligations overlapping. It was a dramatic reset from the kind of free-form jazz of the first season, but it is so successful for laying a foundation that allows you to move forward, right? I mean, because we love the first season, but I think we also, aesthetically, would have been like, well, we still love it as a one and done. Now it's on a different runway,

and it's a different type of ship, you know, ready to go. So I just was so, so, so impressed by that, that it expanded the world in terms of what, you know, into politics, into medicine, into a sense that everything at a certain level is like this. I mean, what does the minister say to Gus, you know, where she's just like we have, it's basically she's like we have teeth and no power. And somebody like Jesse Bloom has teeth and actual power. Right.

You know, like we're noisy, but we don't actually have power the way he has power. that like this is everything up in that sort of rarefied air. But that ultimately our takeaway from this season is these four characters, plus, you know, the other ones that we love and care about along the way. But like, I understand what this show is about, and I understand deeply who this show is about. And both are equally important. And I just think that's, I just want to like sit back and applaud that.

That's really hard to do. And it's particularly hard to do in an era when it's not necessarily what TV's trying to do on its first punch. first test. No, and I, you know, I agree with you that I think that the show is successful, especially in the traditional, like, what HBO considers success, you know, in terms of its word of mouth, in terms of its buzziness, in terms of people. Obviously, you know, getting excited, I have a very, like, specific Twitter feed, I'm sure, but, like, it does seem like on Monday nights, like, it's pretty a buzz with, like, conversation about the show and instant memes and stuff

like that. And I'm sure that stuff really matters, you know, I wonder, you're Here's the thing I admire about it, is that last night, when I watched it, you and I were texting about the meanings of certain moments or like why certain characters did certain things. And it was in no way vague. It was more just like,

hey, did you notice this quick second where they cut to Eric and he looks at Harper? Because I was basically trying to unpack two things. One, when Eric made his decision to cut Harper out, and two, whether or not like the Jesse play that happens with Rikin and Fastade

was essentially a season long con of Harper or not. Right. And the show is a miracle because I don't have definitive answers until either I read a very good financial explainer or Mickey

and Conrad tell us but it doesn't matter because the drama of the show actually supersedes the technical jargon and you know, do you understand like the macro overtakes the micro in that moment. Yeah, I mean, the Jesse character has been fascinating to watch because, and maybe he's the best way into talking about the season as a whole,

because he really was the, he was the 100-foot wave. Yeah. When we met him in the beginning part of the season, the first episode, first of all, casting Jay Duplas, who I saw driving a, you know, Toyota, like a big, big-ass Toyota in Pasadena this weekend. And I was just like, God bless you, Jesse Plum, man of the people. Jay Duplas driving. a gas guzzler?

Listen, I'm not trying to I'm not trying to auto shame anybody. I just meant he was driving a suburban vehicle. But you know what, though, respect because I do too, I drive a gas car. You know, it may have been a hybrid. I don't, I don't, I feel like, I'm not trying to.

I'm to thank me and Dark Brandon are the reason why the prices at the pump are coming down. Oh, has there been a gas price issue this summer? I would, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know. Let me just unplug it. How's your car doing?

No complaints. You know me. Never complain about cars public. When we met him played by Jay Duplas, which is just kind of a brilliant casting, we are, I mean, okay, I'll use eye statements. I don't know if everyone feels this way about Jay Duplas as a person or an actor, performer, whatever. I like him. I liked seeing him on this show. And it was a meet cute, you know. And again, in the interview that Jay did with Vulture last week, he talks about how the character was originally written for someone who, was older. There may have even been some overtones of sexual chemistry or something with the Harper relationship in the early drafts. And casting him steered away from all that in a way that

was really positive. They were just kind of lonely souls eating cheeseburgers at a hotel. And what immediately popped off the screen for me was the potential paternal relationship, right, that Harper is, or parental, let's just say, that Harper is constantly looking for, whether it's with Eric or it's with Jesse. So I, I, loved the kind of subterfuge of being like, well, we kind of like this guy. And not only do we like this guy, we want this connection for Harper because we want Harper to succeed, even though she is very often a total monster. Right. The slow revelation that, by the way, was never hidden, it was just the way the characters were presented with us, playing with our own natural desire to see

narrative go a certain way, the revelation that he is just a purely like Manichian creature, like that has no moral compass that we're speaking to, he just takes what's there. And he seems to have no qualms about it whatsoever, right? Like, is he a disruptive force? Is he a neutral force? Is he, like, the eighth level of hell beast? I, that's not what the show is saying. But that presence rampaging through the season, wreaking havoc with characters who are essentially still formable. And I think, not formidable, but like still malleable. And I think that's what was so interesting was the emergence of Eric, a character who is so crucial to the first season, a character who we said on this podcast, where does he go after what happens in the second or third episode of season two? The emergence of

Eric as not necessarily a counterweight, because he's a crazy bastard too, but all that talk in the last two episodes about him being like, I'm just an old crank. Yeah. This is about youth. This is about the future. I'm a lot for the ride. Yeah. And that excruciating scene that can absolutely be read in a multitude of ways where he says, I'm doing this for you, Harper, where he says, I took care of it for you, where they have the closest thing to an embrace they've ever had. And we think, well, is he helping her? Because he's making sure that the Jesse Bloom thing is going to be washed away or be out in public or be open so she doesn't go to jail. Or is he calling her to, or is he going back to the original sin as it was revealed with the college thing? I don't know. All of this is to

say, you can view that last scene as a moral counterweight to the corruption of Harper by Jesse. or you can read the final scene as Eric learning the language of the youth. This is basically him joining TikTok at the end, being like, oh, you just dunk on everyone until you win, and that's how you win. It could be read both ways, and I love that. I think in both ways,

the Jesse and the Eric character are both conversing with Harper's narcissism. Yeah. I think that Jesse is playing her by basically by flattery, by flattering her sense of importance, by flattering this idea that she is a once-in-a-generation

market-setting genius who sees things that no one else can see and does things no one else is willing to do. And I think that one of the things that was sort of hovering over this season is, would someone like Jesse realistically be throwing away millions and millions of dollars

just for the thrill of hanging out with a young person. Right? Like, presumably, there are more cost-effective ways to get that charge. And this idea that he is vicariously living through Harper at this incredibly volatile moment in her burgeoning career and that it reminds him of why he got into this in the first place. While a lovely scene, I was like, is it, though? Is that it?

And so what you kind of, I think, are led to believe is that, maybe there was some of that. Maybe there was some connection. But ultimately what he needed was this outside force who was so reckless and willing to ask Gus. I mean, Jesse also

had Gus within his reach as well. So it's not like these things are completely beyond him. But like I think ultimately what he wanted was for Harper to go beyond where he would be able to go, bring him back whatever information she could or needed.

and then do this sort of like, I'm at once long and short on something so that basically one thing is paying the other. Well, also, Jesse is... Jesse is the wealthiest character on a show full of rich people, not because of the amount of money in his bank account, but because nothing actually seems to matter to him at all.

You can't pull his card because it doesn't matter. He's absolutely unflappable, right? Like, he never seems to stress. He goes on live television... To manipulate markets, it starts texting. And says, I'm texting my kid. We're very close. My kid, yeah.

I mean, it is savage to a degree that is unimaginable. And everyone else that we're talking about, yeah, they all have a price. They all have a slippery slope that they're well, they're tobogging down, you know, by choice. But man, they hit some bumps on the way and you see them, you see them take the hits, you know. You see, I mean, Eric, for all his, you know, know, Eric was like the Iceman, right, in season one. He'd been doing it forever. And the performance that Ken Long gave in the season was so interesting because it was all on the surface. He was a mess. He was punched drunk, yeah. And sometimes just drunk. You're sloppy in a way. You know,

and everybody that we know and care about, the bruises show. And I think that's why we care about them. But, man, and I think that this is a good moment, too. I just don't want to let the season end without talking about Mahala Harold, who we love, and who really is delivering one of the great lead performances on TV at the moment. It is totally unique. Yeah. And I thought this episode was such an amazing showcase for her, not because of just individual moments of actorly brilliance. Like, when Eric leads her in to that cell, basically, to her execution chamber, she gasps, you know, she physically recoils. And it's just this, like, effortless, emotion-driven acting that she's just amazing at. It wasn't that. It was the moment in the funeral. A funeral, listen to me,

Rishi's funeral, single Rishi's funeral. The wedding. When she and Yaz are reunited and they are kind of goofy with each other and they're happy. And I was like, wait, oh my God, I know that person. That's Mahalo who's on our podcast. That's actually the person. And then all of a sudden you remember that she is acting her ass off all the time, you know, which isn't to say there aren't great performers who are always partly themselves. You know, I mean, that's what we celebrate often. But it was a really interesting reminder of just how many layers are going on throughout

to be that controlled, to be that intentionally opaque in a professional setting, but for us always to be aware of just how deeply raw she is. It's just, I was so impressed by it. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about the sequencing of the scenes and the sequencing of events, just out of curiosity,

and maybe it would be illuminating for listeners as well. So, you know, they go through this process, of the Yankees, then it's the Japanese Bank. The Japanese Bank is going to probably make an offer for the four of them, for D.D. Rishi, Harper, and Eric. Then the problem is, is that the Japanese Bank wants them to move back to New York. That's a non-starter for Harper. Eric doesn't want to relocate.

They start talking about what they could do and whether they could make a play, basically leveraging the Japanese Bank against Pierpoint and trying to get back into the Pierpoint, Good Graces. Eric sets up this meeting with Adler who runs Pierpoint essentially and says...

And this is all after the insider trading. This is all after Harper has secured... After Harper has gotten Gus to tell her about fast aid basically... It's yes, right. And gotten Jesse to... He's like, cover me. So she's covering him again.

Right. And she now thinks she has Bloom in her back pocket again. She can go around representing like she's his coverage. She goes into that meeting. and she's like, you know, I am your business, essentially.

But in the course of the Adler meeting, she suggests that Rishi and DVD be cut to basically lower the overhead. And when she does that, there is a cut to Eric, and Eric looks at her like, holy shit. And then Eric sits down and starts to play along with it. Then there is the, after that,

there's like, she's in the pub with Rishi, Eric calls, she's using code words, and he's just kind of like, what? And then he sees her the next day at the wedding, and he kind of looks behind him when her and Yaz are laughing. And he seems almost like disturbed that there's no, like, I don't know, reverence for the moment, I suppose.

Well, also, there's just no... I mean, to every generation, both, you know, in trances and appalls, the one that came before. And what does Gus say when he's talking to her earlier? He's like, this is psychopath language? Yeah. You know, I mean, I think that's an echo

of what Eric is observing. Right. Yeah. Right. And I don't, you could make a, was it the insider trading? Was it the fact that they enticed two guys to leave a company and then cut them in the process or tried to cut them in the process? Does Rishi know that that's what she did when Rishi's on the floor and she's like, what are you doing here? And he's like, I don't know, what am I doing here, you know? Definitely.

He definitely knows that. So my read on the whole situation was that Eric just saw that this person has no bottom. I also think And then I would be next I would eventually be me Which has already happened She's both killed him and saved him Multiple times

I also think And this is why I admire Among the many reasons Why I admire the show It's an act of love He says I'm doing this for you I think that's true That's a sign of a successfully

Noddy scene Right when all of it is true He's doing the single worst thing He could possibly do to her He's betraying her he's shoring up his own position. He's behaving the way she has behaved. But also, I mean, you were using addiction language,

which is always relevant in the show and became more relevant this season. He saw that she has no bottom, right? She hasn't bottomed out. There just isn't one. And by the way, I think the other thing, this conversation about what Eric is doing and what he's done to Harper

is a deeply generational conversation to. And I think that's something else that really, really shown in this episode and then reflected backwards and made me realize so much of the season was about this, which is about generational divide

in terms of what is acceptable in terms of language, behavior. You know, it's... Yeah, it's like Nicole in the car where she's just like, I have a couple of drinks, I get handsy, and it's traumatizing for you, you know?

Yep. And yet they are able to... So she feels free enough, and that's a loaded word, to be handsy with him. It's interesting, and this is an example of the show,

not putting a moral filter on its Instagram, whatever. Like, they are able to speak to each other completely directly. Nicole and Rob. Brutely. Nicole and Rob. Yeah. And honestly. And they sit there and they take it because the other person is right. What do you think Nicole and Rob talk about when it's like going okay?

You mean like in the good times? Like when he's like, when he's not like, you're my mom and she's like, you're a sullen piece of shit. Like, and then they're like, do you want to watch Liverpool? They talk about prestige TV. That's what everybody talks about from, you know, fallow period of conversation. God, the bear is good, right?

Yeah, I mean, if you check this out, like, oh, what are you watching now? Oh, okay. Here, Res Dogs really picks up in the second season. Yeah, and then, speaking of generational, I mean, that's also in the Yasmin and her father scene,

which is just another scene of beautifully architected savagery. This is a sign of a well-made season of TV. Like, that scene, on its own was beautifully written and beautifully played and wonderfully staged too. It's just like they have access to these spaces that feel like money.

Like later when Yasmin has the brunch with, I forget her name, the young woman, yeah. And they somehow managed to spend 220 pounds on brunch. Like, what are these rooms where this is happening? Anyway, that scene in and of itself is great. But that scene is also the culmination

of an entire season worth of work. Right. And I love the kind of grace note, well, the complete lack of grace note, that he has been correctly, in terms of a moral sense, walks out. And it's like, I want nothing to do with you. And then the humiliations begin to rain down on her. And then when she is locked out of the 12 million pound flat,

she calls dad. She still calls him, you know. She still calls him as if there was one true relationship there as opposed to this just hideous knot of, you know, I've always hated you, but now I'm going to be sweet to you so I can represent you and so I can be successful at work. But you're also my benefactor and patron and landlord, and it's all going to be fine because when it really matters,

you're going to be my dad. Yeah. Well, and then she, I mean, and then think about what she does to Rob. You know, she essentially, both Yaz and Harper have very corruptive energy. you know, like I think that watching yes and Rob and then parallel and mirroring that with Gus

and Harper was really interesting and watching like them kind of push past boundaries of the way that we sort of say like you're a friend so friends don't do X to one another you know and then you can sort of it's really what Harper says about

compartmentalizing when she's in the bathroom with Rishi and she's just like yeah you just compartmentalize well you can compartmentalize all you want until you then run out of any space that's you. And all it is is these compartments. Yes, and also compartmentalizing in a way is reducing everything to a transaction. There is simplicity to it. And that's another thing that I think Conrad and Mickey understand very deeply,

which is like there is a clarity when these people are on the trading floor. And you hear athletes talk about things in a similar way. Like life is messy, but when I'm on the court or I'm on the field, I know what I'm supposed to do. And then they're just absolute shit shows. Yeah, they have a starting gun and they have a closing whistle, just like a game. Yeah. I also like really like just in terms of the way that those guys approach the writing,

it's just a truism of observed and experienced life that people can be high functioning. They can be smart. They can pay attention. They can do the work. But they can rarely enact and take their own advice. They can give it, you know. And there are moments in this. this whole season when the big four, if we're going to call them that,

are correct in their dealings with others, you know, up until the point where he goes to get her a bag, like Rob treats Yasmin pretty appropriately and kindly with some, you know, with some boundaries and respect. The way Gus is to Harper is, you know, kind of clarifying, right? But then he goes and does all sorts of sideways shit. Like, I like that that there's room in this. this universe for that. There absolutely is no, no one, no one is all the way right. No one is crusading.

People are messy. And like, I think that's another aspect of the show that is maybe not celebrated enough. And maybe it's because it's a show that is show run and created by two dudes. But like, you were talking about like, you just said like Yasmin and Harper are corrosive. I mean, I don't know of another contemporary TV drama that is led by two, I'm sorry to use this phrase, like problematic women like this. They are absolutely the heroines of this show. And I love them as characters. And I love the scene where they're happy.

But they do wild shit. Yeah. And that's great. That makes for great, great, great drama. And to me, the brilliant thing about what they did this season is that, on a minute-to-minute basis when you're watching the show, you're just so involved in the music of the dialogue and the music of the music, too. And the music of the music and the thrill of the show itself.

but it is such a deep text and you can just pull so much out of it and you can, it really, I was just sitting there being like, this idea that Harper, the thing that's the non-starter, the thing that's the deal breaker for Harper, is to be a rich New Yorker.

You know, think about how fucking broken she must be if really her happy place is living in a hotel room that's being paid for by Eric, you know? Wasn't that incredible, when she was like, my life is here, I've built a life here. Excuse me.

There's no person there. There's no person there. Right. And she's like, I don't know whether or not you want to connect like the lack. Her resistance to going back to New York is rooted in the complete dissolving of her family and what happens to her in Berlin. But this idea that she's just like, no, London's great. Like I just, I'm really like, I'm doing great here. It's like you're day drinking with three guys you don't like.

I've got an oyster card. Like, you know, there's a great exhibit coming. All of your sexual experiences are essentially like, like, bankrupt. You do a lot of drugs for what it's worth, although you don't maybe have the same problem Yasmin has. And then, like, you're just like, oh, but I can't move back to Newark. I mean, that would just be so, that was just upset the apple cart. And you know what?

It really, it hit me really hard because I think when you are struggling with addictive tendencies or you're struggling with addictive behavior, the moment that you're in it actually, does feel like paradise. And you will do anything to keep that going. You know, you'll do anything to keep the walls up. And the walls could be like, these walls are on fire. And you're like, no, no, but they're walls. And they're, and they're, yeah. So the idea that like throughout the episode and then they, to have them meet at that wedding, which is, you know, pretty like profane in a lot of ways for the two of them to be like, we're not poison, are we? You know, like, it's like, yeah, right. Ha ha. And that, That being the moment of recognition where Eric is like, I can't do this whenever.

I don't think I can do this with her. I think that's when he decides. So let's talk about it pivoting forward. I mean, the show, speaking of things that they did that are just proven winners is they ended on a shock. And they rattled it all up. And so they also drove it off a cliff. Yeah. I mean, that's the perfect way.

But it's also, it's that great TV thing. You know, we talk about it often in terms of like changing everything but keeping the status. quo and how do you do that push-pull. Consolidating the desks, the CPS and FX or whatever the initials are, is great. Because now look who's, they're all together now. So Kenny is there next to Rishi and what's her name, whose name I always forget is there making jokes. And like, okay, we got our bullpen crew and that's going to be a strong, strong base for next

season. Eric's back on the floor, which didn't seem possible. But wait, Harper's out? I think the next season should be. Harper and Yaz living in upstate New York as Harper completes her undergrad and soon you purchase or wherever. I think she should transfer to like Sarah Lawrence or Bard. Yeah. You know, just get really, then that way the improvisational comedy part could come into it.

Because you could major in that. You can get a PhD in it, I think. No, it's just, look, we, it's interesting. I feel like we kind of often do this caveat because we really, we love Mickey and Conrad, we love talking to them. this show has our number regardless because, you know, it's kids in London but directed by Michael Mann. Like, it's, this is our vibe and we love it aesthetically. But I really do just want to champion it this season for what it did in terms of reminding us what season to season ongoing dramas can and should be. Like they went back to the textbooks, you know, but they didn't make it musty.

They didn't drag it down with history. they just studied, you know. Shout out to SUNY Purchase. They just studied. And I can't wait for there to be more. I can't wait to talk to those guys again. And if you'll allow it, Chris. Are you going to be?

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market. Every year, look, you know I like to listen to sports podcasts too. And this is a sports and pop culture website, right? You like to listen to two sports podcasts, yeah. Yeah, out of the four that I listen to. So that's 50% of my podcasts are sports. There's always the person who's going to come in and be hired as the manager or the coach who's like going to break the sport. You know what I mean? Like who knows more than the previous 70 or 100 or whatever, however many years with the schemes or the shifts or the data. And more often than not, they get fucking humbled in a hurry, right? Because you still kind of have to know the fundamentals to do it.

And I was just really thinking about that over the weekend. Not just because industry really demonstrated how to do it well, but because we had two other shows that seem to either have forgotten some of the lessons or just to be, and I respect it, honestly, just not interested. in House of the Dragon and in Atlanta. Now, we're not going to group them together. They couldn't be more different. I also want to caveat it by saying,

this is not me saying I know better than these incredibly gifted and talented creators on both ends who are doing incredible Herculean work in production and delivering thought-provoking content and dragons and all that shit. This isn't me saying that. This is just me saying that, like, when I watched this episode of House of the Dragon,

which was written by Charmaine de Grate, who was a wonderful person, she's a brilliant writer, and this isn't on her that I'm saying this. I just feel like as an enterprise, I feel like they just kind of skipped a couple steps. Well, they just feel like... Skipped a couple of years.

They definitely skipped a couple of years. But I think that that's what you're reacting to. We were talking about this on Talk the Thrones, and it wasn't like a... It wasn't even like a major part of the podcast, but we chatted about this at the end of Talk the Thrones yesterday about... I don't think it's any mystery.

if you watch the scenes from next week, the cast changes next week. So there's a significant time jump coming up. But a lot of the things that have happened over these five episodes, I think would have hit harder and made a lot more sense if they had actually like spent time investing

in the moments. Yes. So. But the funny thing is is that I also, there's a part of me that wants this show to get moving and for shit to happen on it. Look, this show, was that the fifth episode? Five episodes in, House of the Dragon, is a Wikipedia entry for a better TV show.

It is giving us the plot points, the history, character pieces, the chessboard, but absolutely no reason to care about them or to be interested in them. We are going through the motions. The most generous version of this criticism, I would say, is that it reminds me of a show that you and I both liked, which was the first season of Narcos. The first season of Narcos was Boyd Holbrook being like, and then cocaine was invented, and this man sure had a lot of it.

Well, we Yankees did our best to stop them. And we're like, hey, it seems like an exciting time. Cocaine, speedboats. Okay, I'm watching it. it's surfacy to me because I don't actually, we're not spending time with the people enough to differentiate them or understand them. We're being told,

it's being narrated to us. I wrote, I wrote like a thing when that came out, like, this is Wiki TV. And it's essentially like, something will happen. And Boy,

it'll be like, Oh, Pablo sure did have us running in circles after that one. And then I think that the show got like, over the years, especially when it moves to the, to Cali. It was much more, like, robust.

Yeah. But that's what I'm feeling here. So for example, Sir Kristen, is that his name? Sir Kristen. Loses his shit at the end of this episode. Got admit, yeah. I am not all of the audience. I don't presume to be.

I'm sure there are people who were founded thrilling or moving or locked in, shocking. My takeaway was, why did he do that? He has been in love, hopelessly, moon-faced in love for 20, five minutes of screen time, just to be generous here? But like for, I think a year or so. Like, that's the problem. Like, I think what you're reacting to

is the fact of, of the compression of time and the amount of work that they're doing in all these different areas of the show with characters means that we're supposed to take this exchange he has with Renira on the boat where he's just like,

I got to, I've worked my, my courage up and I'm going to say to you, like you and me can run away and be a John Mellencamp song together. And she is like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, you're, I'm going to use you as a sex toy for the rest of my life, you know? And that, that blows his mind and that breaks him. And then he also finds out that his, like, his oath is essentially now publicly broken because the queen and all these other people know about, like, his affair with the princess.

Yes. I mean, that's what I mean by Wikipedia. So that's supposed to put him on the edge. And that when this dude comes up and taunts him about it, he loses it. This all tracks. When this is on the board in a writer's room and when it's in an outline sent to the network, it's very clear. And I do not say that with judgment.

Like, it's super hard to write a clear outline. It's super hard to get characters to go to A to B to C to D. I really struggle at it. Like, it sucks. This show is doing that. The dominoes are falling in the way that they were designed to fall. The problem is they didn't find room, and this is going to come up at the flip side of this, argument is going to be made when we talk about Andor, because Endor does do this.

There's not a single defining passion, quirk flaw in any of these characters that interest me. There's not a spark of humor. There's not a spark of surprise. You don't find that with Damon? Damon is the only place where any of this exists. and I think a large part of it is because Matt Smith is having fun playing a guy who doesn't give a fuck. Because he definitely had fun being like, guess what I own your house now? He was great.

He's great actor. Millie Alcock's great. These are really good performers. It is the simulacrum of it's good. I mean, you're there like, hey, I'm in Game of Thrones. It's awesome. But I was really struggling with all of this, this episode, because I don't, why is Allison big mad? Why is she mad?

I'll just put that to you. Tell me why is she so mad. I think it's a couple of things. I think she's bad that her best friend lied to her on her mother's grave lied to her. I think that she is increasingly aware over the course of the episode of what her father said, which is that there's only one way for Rainira to solidify her claim to the throne is that to kill you and your kids. I guess there's just really no checks imbalances in government there. Like, there's not a lot of, like, oversight, not a lot of independent, like, you know,

governing bodies there. They're just like, ah, there's no special masters? Turns out the princess just, like, committed mass murder. I guess that's true what you think about Game of Thrones. But anyway, my point being is that I think over the course of the episode, she has been, like, I think initially maybe a little bit of a wallflower because she was like, I got plucked out of nowhere to be this, the queen. but I'm not the queen.

It's really about the princess and it's really about this king. And then she keeps having sons and like growing into her role as the queen. And then by the time they get to this royal wedding, she's just like, no one can be trusted. I have to look out for me. I have to be the green dress.

I mean, I'm glad I have you. That's helpful. But like, and I'm going to be tough. I'm being tough. But you're like, that's not on the screen. I want this to be better. I want this to be good, and I think it still can be. There's no reason why not, not just because of the talent involved,

but because of the resources and the importance that it plays for all of this. Like, I saw someone was, I don't know, was tweeting or, you know, I love Facebook, like basically being like, accusing me of misreading this show the way I made a mistake in Better Call Saul and basically saying that we should not talk about the show until it's done, which, okay, but then there won't be a podcast. I thought that was a Maybe there was a deeper criticism at work there We're going to be talking about this show week to week

So we got to talk about it week to week I can't say we can't just give it a mulligan Until the season's over and then be like boy that Glad we didn't talk about the fifth episode You know I think that if I cared more deeply about these characters In this world than I do I might feel really good that the Targaryen story is finally being brought to life

That they're doing a great live version Of a song that was written a while ago that I like to hum to myself. Cool. This is the big band version of it. That's great. But it so far it really is striking me. It's as if Kevin Feigey had made Ironman, right, and thought that the Iron Man suit was the star of the movie. That's a good way of putting it. You've got to give me the people in the, armor, riding the dragons. I just feel like, and I wish they could. I wish they could find a way into it. And I'll say it again, even though, you know, this isn't the, I was going to say, like, this isn't the part that's going to get aggregated. I don't think we get aggregated.

I just mean, like, it's so hard to do any of this. There are so many demands being placed on the creative team for the show. So I do not belittle the fact that they're like delivering a program every week that is up to the visual and, you know, fan standards. Be like, oh, Facebook commenter person had a point. Was that you? Was that your burner? I think I was trying to... Still smoking 77.

I think it really... It will be interesting to see where we are after episode six. Because that, I wonder whether or not we will then look back on it the first five episodes as basically prologue. You know, like essentially like throat clearing as we get then to what the show should be. Now, I don't know actually whether or not if this is like a

four or five season map of a show and there will be other actors playing these characters on top of this, and they plan on changing out the actors every one or two seasons like The Crown does. Like, that could happen. But yeah, like, I'm, I think because, for one thing, talking with Mallory and Joanna about it every week, I kind of get a little bit more insight into like, oh, that's why I get the Sir,

that's why Sir Kristen is mad information a little bit. But yeah, like, I think that, it's a little static for my tastes right now. There was a lot of... There was a lot of dancing at that wedding. No, I mean, I think... Usually I like dancing at weddings. People were on the move in Game of Thrones.

A lot of the time, there was, Rob is coming from the north, and we're on this road, and Aria's on this road, and Peter Dinklage is in a box, and now he's over here. And it's like... It felt like we had, like, a lot more motion in the offense.

And in this, I just feel like it's just like, walk into a room, sit in the room, talk about stuff that's happening in other rooms, go into another room. What are the goals? Right. You're exactly right.

Game of Thrones was broken down into a dozen smaller pieces. And within each piece, there was an understandable, this character wants this. This character doesn't, and to be clear, it wasn't this character wants

to become the prince who is promised. It was this character wants to get out of this fucking box, you know, this week on the path towards whatever is coming next. And I think you've really hit the nail in the head. So what are the wants here? The wants are to maybe marry someone we haven't met yet for love and be the queen? Like what is the short-term goal for any of these characters to stay alive,

to not have your fingers fall off like your dad, to get along with your friend again, to have your baby become a king in 30 years. They're not doing a great job of staying out of contact with dad, if that is a concern. No. I think it does, watching the banquet scenes of this show or even the visiting Drift Mark scene

did remind me of the week in March when we all gathered in a room but washed our hands frequently? Can you imagine, can you imagine Viseras's Yelp review of dinner that night? It was just like, we had gathered from my daughter's wedding

at this banquet hall. We had heard really great things about it. A lot of banquet halls went out of business, so I'm happy to support local businesses here. And I was digging into my quail hands first as I want to do. And then what do you know, I start bleeding out of every orifice. Two stars. Well, also, I did feel for him where it's just like the duties of the king are never done.

Earlier in the season, we talked about how small council meetings really could have been a raven. Yeah. Did he have to take the boat ride? You know what I mean? No, I think that they made him take the boat to to, to, to cripple him. And to, to humiliate him, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do want, I do kind of want a soundboard, like in the classic sense of just like Patty Considine exhausted voice.

Reneera. Well, you remember in Ferris, what he's got like the I'm Sick keyboard sounds? Oh, yeah, the whole Viserra soundboard would be good. Yeah. Coughing up a lung. Yeah, maggots climbing inside your separating wound. Yeah. Okay, I get that.

clearly we're still interested in the margins of the show, but it will, we can put it aside for now. I'm glad that we didn't do the instant response because I found this frustrating, and I'm curious to see if this is a reboot, soft or hard, but it is going to be interesting for everybody who's still listening to watch and or this week. Because it's not a straw man argument anymore, as far as I'm concerned, that a pressures on super expensive, priority for the network or streamer, big IP show. just can't find the room to be creative or emotional. That's off the table now, as far as I'm concerned. So a show like House of Dragon is on notice. It's not just being a custodian. Yeah.

Should we talk about Atlanta before we go? Yes. Let's talk about Atlanta before we go. So I think that I had said, you know, we were talking about season three pretty consistently. And then I think we started started to lose our way with it. And I believe I had said, actually, in the spirit of your fact, favorite Facebook commenter that I was going to kind of reserve judgment until the end of that season, which I did but didn't actually ever share the judgment. And that was that the season

didn't quite work for me. And maybe that was sort of the point. You know, I think it was a somewhat confrontational piece of art, you know, and I think it was supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. I don't think it was supposed to entertain in a sort of classical television way. But I was kind of fascinated watching these two episodes because it felt almost like a different show. Not to the third season, which it obviously is, and it's back in Atlanta,

and I think it's dealing with, you know, somewhat more everyday issues, but that it had scraped off the surrealism and the almost fable-like quality of the third season and infused it back

into what we might think of as a traditional Atlanta episode. And to me, it worked. To me, it did. I think that, is there a part of me that is like, you know, and we talked a lot about this with industry where it's like,

oh, there's the big story, and then there's the subtext, there's like, what is this season about? And there's like, what is any given episode about? After two episodes, I'd still, you know,

obviously, like, Earn possibly leaving to go to Los Angeles is, like, a thing that's, like, gonna be hanging over it. I don't mind the fact that there is not a, we must do this so that Paperboy can do that,

or so that Earn can do this or whatever. There's not, like, a kind of collective effort. but what has come out the other side after the first two, you know, obviously like almost universally praised seasons of the show, the third one that was like, I think, a remarkable experiment that I didn't always work for me. And now we're here in the fourth one. And now this show is sort of like a combination of all of it is kind of amazing to watch. Even if it doesn't always hit me in the gut the way the first two seasons did. Yeah. And I wonder this might not make sense to people who skipped ahead. But sometimes I wonder when I'm watching the show, am I Eric watching Harper, you know, or am I an older person at Pierpoint watching the new generation?

Because I deeply respect the Glover Brothers and Hero, Stephanie Robbins, and the whole writing staff, both as just creative geniuses and also as people who have always trusted their own instincts and never conformed. to anybody's idea of what the show could or should be or even what a show is. We should celebrate that. And so my skepticism or remove or reserve, I don't want it to be lumped in.

I don't want that to be the takeaway. I think what I'm struggling with with this show is kind of like we're so far away from some of the really well-observed still-life like paintings of the first season, second season, and we're so deeply just abstract now that I just feel untethered from any recognizable character or reality or behavior. When I say that, I don't mean I'm thrown by a dead rapper's scavenger hunt that also leads to a funeral home where there's a closet door that connects to a labyrinth mall somewhere in Atlanta.

That's great. Always give me that. What I'm saying is Erne and Van are walking around and I don't remember who they are anymore I don't know who they are I don't know where they are in their life or really are what they want

and so I watch it a little bit coldly I watch it as an exercise and I that bums me out because I love those performers and I want to love these characters in an emotional way

and that's why that's sort of the string I was trying to run through the series which is that if I love the characters and I can be with them understand their wants and needs and struggles, do anything. Take them anywhere, and I'm going to go along for the ride. When I'm feeling so distant from them, feeling like they don't care about giving me that, which is their right.

But if they don't care, I find it hard to care to. Do you think that it's a little bit of judging the show based on what it was versus what it is? Because I know I disparaged my own English major credentials earlier, but to me, it's like if the first two seasons, were Raymond Carver collections. These last two seasons have been Donald Barthelmeek collections. Nice. But you're essentially,

you're essentially, like, changing the way that you're, you have to rewire how your brain works when you're watching the show. You're not going to get, even though, I mean, the weird thing is that in the second episode of this season, Erne is in therapy and goes through, like, probably more deeply into his biography than we have gotten in the whole four seasons. And I want to talk about that. I love that what you just said, and I completely agree with you. I also think that, especially this will be easier in hindsight, but this is such a deeply modern and contemporary show on all sides of the camera and all sides of the experience and the business of it.

So the show that FX wanted from Donald Glover versus the cultural phenomenon that it became versus the everyone involved in the show has an absolutely meteoric ascendant career. and so we're going to get back together and bang out two seasons where we're going to do all the stuff that we want within this pre-existing machine because we don't want to do the old thing anymore. And certainly we've earned the right to you don't make us and then we're going to go do other things. It's not, you're right that it shouldn't be looked at

as a traditional TV show. It's a vehicle for these geniuses, honestly, to get together and riff on stuff. That is what it is. And I am definitely being stodgy and conservative in my thinking about it. But I also want to be honest for the purposes of the podcast to say that like the second episode,

which I like more than the first episode, my honest, honest first takeaway from it was, boy, it would have been nice to see some of this instead of having Earned tell us about it. I respect the structure and also that I do feel like, unlike most people who work in TV, they challenge themselves.

So to get us through an episode where there's not an A and a B story, there's two A stories, and one of the A stories makes absolutely no fucking sense until the last three minutes of the episode, that is ballsy as fuck. Yeah. That's crazy. And then it all starts to make more sense,

and there is surreality in Atlanta, but this is also not that. This is not some of the more out there stuff that was in the third season. But as good as an actor as Donald Glover is, he's in a therapist office with someone I've never seen before, carrying on a relationship and talking about,

you know, over time, like time is advancing in this episode. Yeah. I don't know what he's doing where he's going, I don't know. So I just felt untethered, and I wanted to see some of this. Like, again, I don't know if they wanted to act it. This show deals with aspects of black life in America and trauma that it's not for me to sit here

and police and be like, maybe even a poor choice of word there, to be like, I want to see that on camera. Right. But like the airport thing that he talks about, it's fucking horrific, right? And it was different. It just is different to have it be told to us. Maybe that is the goal. And maybe me having this reaction is noteworthy in and of itself.

but I just felt like there was a lot of emotional storytelling that was taken off of the screen in order to give the sort of larger structural innovation room to exist. Yeah. Not a bad choice, just one that I didn't vibe with. No, I know. I think that it is, it is like they're exploring new ways to make the kinds of points that I think they would, they would make if they were like, here's urn's experience at Princeton. You know, here's a flashback episode of Earn at Princeton.

Or here is why Earn didn't, yeah, exactly, why Earn left Princeton. Can I jump on that just to say, maybe the answer is right in what you were just speaking about, which is in the text itself. Earn says he's not going to go play by their rules. He is not going to go perform for people who disappointed him, even though there might be value in it for those watching. And I feel like that's kind of a mission statement for the way Donald Glovers maybe feels about the show at this moment. The legacy, there are a lot of legacies of the show, and it's not over yet.

I mean, I can't wait to see what Alfred and Darius get up to the rest of the season. I love those characters and those actors forever. But the legacy of the show might be less about the specifics of certain episodes or whether Van is fully represented on the show in relation to others or not, which is the big piece on Vulture about that today. And more in like, look what these are. creators did when they had their, they were given the keys. Yeah. Look what they did with it.

And who's going to do something else like this again? And that's, that is valuable. And so that's why, that's also why I want to be careful. Like, this is kind of the thing we got into with season three. I'm like, this isn't working for me, but this is worthwhile. This is not, this is not something to be dismissed. It's definitely something to be watched and engaged and reckon with, including reactions that aren't just throwing flowers.

Right. And I, you know, I was thinking about our Emmy's conversation. and the difference between talking about TV and talking about movies. And so Sean and Amanda on the Big Picture, we'll talk about the Oscars and also really ultimately talk about their love of film and the movies as both an institution of like the tradition of like going to the movies and being together in the dark and having this collective experience and movie stars and also the art that comes out of film. And I don't think that we have that relationship with television, even though we've been

talking about it for 10 years. I don't think anybody does. I think people like TV a lot as a thing to do with their time. But I don't think you see a lot of people who are like, what's really important is that we defend

the traditions of the sitcom to the death and that there is always a place where we celebrate the sitcom or the hour-long drama. It's like, I'm at peace with the fact that a lot of what we're watching probably was a movie

that got changed to TV show or if it had been a different business, it would have been developed as a film. And a lot of this stuff that we're watching is still in that weird nether region. But to watch Atlanta right now is to watch somebody truly playing with the form. And not only playing with the form of like,

oh, you guys, two A plots and one doesn't make any sense until we get to the very end of the episode, but it's also playing with our expectations and it's also playing with our relationship to the show. And that's not always fun, but it's pretty cool. Yeah, I appreciate it.

that. And I'm glad I get to talk to you about it, not only because we do a podcast twice a week, despite what people on Facebook may prefer. You got to get off meta, brother. But I am really learning some fascinating things about this pandemic, by the way, that really might blow your mind. But I think that just hearing you say that is right, and it's kind of a tempering agent. Because one of the other differences that we talk about, but maybe we don't return to enough with TV and movies, is that the on-demand nature of it changes. your relationship to it. And when I had a moment this weekend, Atlanta's back, I should take into account that I was like really, really excited for Atlanta to be back in a way that I might have been in the past,

really, really excited for Parks and Rec to be back. Those shows couldn't be more different. But my reductive brain was like, oh, opening in my schedule without children, I love something. I want it to love me back. Right. That is not Atlanta. It has no interest in doing that. And it's probably wise of you to point that out and remind me, even though if I'd taken two seconds to think about it, I would have realized it. But if I'd taken two seconds, a child may have jumped on top of me. We could wrap it up there. How about that? So we're going to be back on Wednesday night with a conversation with Tony Gilroy, the creator and writer of Andor. We can't wait

for everybody to hear that conversation in Andy. I will chat a little bit about and or itself. Can we just be clear to people? We're not breaking any embargoes, Bob. But if you've been out on Star Wars? If you haven't seen any Star Wars since Star Wars, watch these three episodes. Then we'll talk. We were produced by Kyah McMullen, who allowed us to spoil industry for her, and we'll be back on Wednesday night. She didn't spoil it. She was like, did people do drugs? Did Harper do a bad thing? Kaya is the Oracle of Delphi of Industry. She's fine.