The Watch - Inside the Mind of 'Mindhunter' Star Jonathan Groff (Ep. 197)

Episode Date: October 23, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald chat with 'Mindhunter' star Jonathan Groff about his time on set with acclaimed director David Fincher; his character, Holden Ford; and the challenge of filming year-round. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the Ringer.com. And today is a very special episode of The Watch. Jonathan Groff from Mind Hunter dropped by to hang out with me and Andy

for the entire episode to talk about his Netflix show, Mind Hunter, which the first season's up on Netflix right now. We did not get into specific spoilery stuff. you know, if you're midway through the season, you can definitely listen to it. If you've only watched a couple episodes, you can definitely listen to it. But we did get very in depth about what it was like to shoot this show, to shoot it with David Fincher, how it came to him when he was backstage at Hamilton, where he was a member of the cast when it was on its Broadway run.

This guy is awesome. He has such a great way of looking at this role and was just a delightful conversation. So we're really happy to present this conversation that we just have. with Jonathan Groff from Mind Hunter. Thursday, we will be back. We will be talking about probably previewing the second season of Stranger Things. So make sure you tune in for that on Thursday.

Until then, here's our conversation with Jonathan Groff of Mind Hunter. So we'll get to that before the end of this is. Oh, good. This is the kind of intimate journalism this podcast is known for. And who better for this backfinding mission? To cover intimacy, right?

Then our guest, the star of Netflix's Mind Hunter, are one of our favorite shows. My favorite show of the year. Wow, you're ready to say it. I'm there. Oh my God. I got there. Yeah.

Wow. Wait, you haven't even finished and it's already your favorite show the year. What about the last episode when we find out that it's all a dream of Tensh's son? This is all a trailer for Stranger Things season two.

And it's like the Bob Newhart show or really just like we wake up in bed with her and it's... No, you wake up in bed on the set of looking. And I'm like, hey, our friends are back. Exactly. Welcome back to the show, Jonathan. You were here.

You were nice enough to come and talk to me about looking a few years. ago. Now we're here to talk about well, Mind Hunter, also obviously other things as we get to it. From gays to serial killers. It's what could be better. It's a logical leap. Well, let's get right into it because we are obsessed with the show. We love it. We're so

happy you can talk to us about it. But I kind of want to set the scene for a bunch of people. Also, because I'm curious. Let's go back in time. Let's say January, February, a cold New York evening. You're backstage at the Richard Rogers Theater. There is a lot of time between King

George appearances in Hamilton. Yes. You make the most of your appearances. Both of us saw the show and think it's incredible. But that was such a humble break. That was such like the most vanilla thing we can possibly say. This is like, I love Hamilton. I'm not sure if people ever bring that up to you.

I like McCroywater. And I like Hamilton. And I like a little pumpkin spice around the holidays. You're backstage. And I imagine at some point an email crosses your transom that says David Fincher wants to talk to you about a serial killer show. Wow. You are nailing it right now, because that is exactly what happens.

Is that really true? Yes. This is, you're so good in this part, and it's so exciting to see you in this part. But I imagine, on some level, you must have been like, I'm sorry, what is this again? Yes. Well, I'd met David seven years before when I auditioned for the social network. I auditioned for the Justin Timberlake part, Sean Parker. Can you do your, you know, what's cool, a billion dollars reading for us?

No, I don't even remember the lines. What is the line? It's like he's like, you know what's cool? Right, a billion dollars. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was good. Wow. Yeah.

I got chills. Right? Yeah. Me too. So I flew to L.A. like seven years before and sat with Fincher and it was like a long, hours long audition process. And in that moment, I fell in love with him and it fell in love with his brain and was just like so taken by him. Obviously, I didn't get it.

Lost it to Timberlake again. The Super Bowl is the same, right? Exactly, yeah, it was between me and him, and now it's a Timber League Super Bowl. Maybe in seven years. So when I saw David Fincher on the email, I was like, yes, I want to audition for this. It came directly from him? No, no. It was like a new David Fincher project for Netflix, you know, read these materials and let us know if you would like to audition.

So I just said, yes, I would like to audition before reading the materials because it's David Fincher. That's a no-brainer. and I was backstage at the Richard Rogers. So you're looking for something to read anyway. Looking for something to read. And now I'm just reading these long interview scenes of serial killers. And I thought, wow, this is intriguing. And then I put myself on tape with Julie Schubert in New York, the casting director.

And then came out like the next day, L.A. Mayfield, who's the L.A. casting director of the show, was like, Fincher loved your tape and wants to meet you on Monday on your day off from the show. So I flew on the Monday to go sit with him. and we talked about it and I had done like a bunch of audition scenes on the tape in New York and I had brought them all with me and had dressed like a Mormon

in like a suit with a tie because it's what the character does and I walked into his office and he was like you can put the sides down I loved your tape I remember you from seven years ago and the partisan if you want it

I just wanted to talk about that this could be a couple of years if it goes well and are you ready to live in Pittsburgh and I was like what? It's kind of like actually the end of the fourth episode

of Mind Hunter where they find out they have the funding and they're like nodding but they're like holy shit in their brain is it a little bit also like the end of the seventh episode when you find out the person

you're talking to is wearing high heels and you're like I don't know how I feel about this or am I, is that a ring? Exactly. And it was like I had an erection but now that's the opposite of that actually yes it is.

Yeah it was like you were testing us we have seen the show. Yes you have. That's good. Good. So yeah, he'd see, you know, it was so exciting. It's like a dream to sit with someone like him and have him talk about the show. And then, you know, left Hamilton early and went to Pittsburgh and was in Pittsburgh for 10 months shooting it. Okay. So as a Pennsylvania native, all three of us, although from different parts of the state, we're Philly. Philly, Lancaster? Yes.

Pittsburgh actually, are you okay living in Pittsburgh for a long time? I'm pro Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh's kind of come around recently, right? Let's have like a little bit of a Pittsburgh. Grissants. I think you could coin that phrase. Yeah. Because it's very true. It's kind of hipstery now. It's kind of like Williamsburg.

There's like cool coffee shops and restaurants. And it was the perfect place to work because it's so quiet. I lived right along the Allegheny River in Lawrenceville. And so at night going home to learn lines and stuff, it was not like New York where you're constantly, there's constant distractions. But there's amazing restaurants in Pittsburgh. So you could, it was a great place. place to work because you can focus on your work, but then

they're really into their sports, so we all went to a hockey game and a football game and a baseball game, and then the restaurants there are incredible. Everything there you get, everything you order at every restaurant, you can actually have French fries put inside of it. That's also true. Which is really excellent. Yes, I mean, it is like,

you guys are both so thin to be from Pennsylvania because, like, I'm from that more like fat, dairy farmer, like, string of folks. Well, you gave us UTS potato chips. There's a couple of things. That's true. Yeah. I Game weight so fast. So, like, it was really, that was one of the challenges of living in Pittsburgh.

It was like I just wanted to get fat and I couldn't. I was actually going to ask about that because you guys do not treat your bodies great on the show just like in terms of the eating. You know, like, and I imagine, and I want to get into like all the Fincher lore, do you have to do with 101 takes of eating one bite of a cheeseburger? I halt my co-star who plays Bill Tench, who's amazing. he had more trouble with that because he just in his character was eating more in the scripts and he was also smoking and so for him the multiple takes with the smoking got like really got to him and he would like stand up and be like I feel like I'm gonna throw up for me because my character is so fastidious I was rarely ever eating sure more like just focused on the

task at hand you have like a schlitz exactly exactly yeah that That's so true. One of my favorite things about the show in terms of the period details and the production is that it really captures a moment in America's history where the only meal served at any restaurant was a steak with a baked potato. Yes. Because that's all he's eating. He has a fork like this.

And it's just anywhere you go, even if it's not a place of business that normally makes food, they will serve you a steak. Exactly. With a baked potato. Which is just personally my dream. I just would always love a steak with a baked potato. But that's, again, my Pennsylvania at Roots. So you meet Fincher, you get the role.

amazing, you know, like just right off the bat like that. What's the difference between Fincher and the courtship process and Fincher on set? His personality is consistent, at least in my experience, in every aspect of the process. Even in that audition that I had with him in the social network, it was hours long, meticulous, really a deep investigation. And I ended up not getting it, but it was still a memorable experience. And that is how he is with the crew and the writing, and in rehearsal and in post-production and in editing and on the set directing. He just, he is so into it. I mean, that really is what it is.

He's not like this insane genius like petting a cat, like Dr. Evil, making you do things over and over again and you don't know why. It's very practical and pragmatic. And if we are doing, and he gets wrapped for like doing multiple takes. And yes, sometimes we do lots of takes and sometimes we don't. It just sort of depends on he wants to do. do it in as many different versions as he can and cover it with as much coverage as he can so that he has as many options when he goes, it's just very practical.

Yeah. When he goes to edit it. And he inspires this kind of like, like when it was over, for example, I thought the crew was going to be like, oh my God, thank God. That was so hard. That was so hard. Because he asked a lot of everybody. Yeah.

And especially of the crew, everyone's got to be on their A game. But the crew was all saying, and I felt this way too, you know, God, he was. really reminds you why you did it in the first place. Yeah. Because he has this love and passion and he raises the bar so high and expects so much. And so it's like those teachers in school that were really hard on you and you end up remembering them and loving them the most because they really pushed you and brought the best, bought the best out of you. That's what he's like. The attention to detail you're talking about makes me think of one of the aspects of the show that I admire the most. And I think this is a credit to his style or maybe I can draw the line between his style and the choices

you make in your performance because the thing about Holden right from the beginning is that no one looks away from the fact that his interest in this is curious, that there is a, for all the talk of sociopaths and pathology, and there's an element, especially in the beginning in those incredible early scenes with Edmund. Yeah. Where you're wondering, how is this guy ticking? Like, what makes him tick? And neither of you seem to have any qualms about allowing us into that.

that this could be going multiple ways. Yeah, totally. That there's something not necessarily admirable or heroic about the... I mean, the same thing. It's like, you always hear, like, actors are always like, I go into a scene and I'm like, I have to know what I want. You know, like, I need to know what my character wants from the scene, but I never know what Holden wants,

because it seems like he's discovering it. Right. At any, like, every second is like a new... He's like a newborn baby. Every thing he's... No, but it's like this is what... makes this show so fascinating is it's not just like, I'm going to play a part and trick this guy to telling me what I want to know. It's like, no, I can't tell what he wants. Yeah, right. That's so

interesting. And I felt even watching it back, because we do so many takes and so many different versions of things, ultimately, it's David's, the whole thing is David's creation. So on set, I would show up, you know, ready, like lines memorized, ready to bring the A game. And you would do all the different versions of the things. But it wasn't until I, you know, I would show up, you know, watched it back that I sort of understood the story that David was telling. And he would show us, like, as we were going along through the months in Pittsburgh, you know, we'd shot the first two episodes first, and he was cutting them together and showing us pieces of them. And I was learning just as much about the character watching his edited version of the things that he put together

than when we were doing it on set. Can you give an example? What did you learn from what he showed you? Even though he's showing you you. Yeah, yeah. So one of the things, that he talked about with me early on was he said, you know, as an actor, you learn, you know, as an actor in the world. You learn how to have ease in social situations and you know how to be charming

and you're, and just innately, I'm kind of a people pleaser. And he said to me, this character does not have nearly enough self-awareness to have those qualities that you have naturally, sort of a warmth and an ability to charm people.

He's not like that. He's just not, that's just not who he is. So that articulated itself very early on. And it became our running joke between the two of us where he would tell me to stop smiling. Because I would smile even unconsciously,

and I'm smiling right now. And there's, in life, I'm a smiler. And it's this weird subconscious thing that he sort of zeroed in on with me and pointed out. And so he'd be like, okay, and we're rolling. And Jonathan stopped smiling and you're still smiling. You're still smiling.

Okay. And action, right? And so when I watched the first episode back when we were into like the first, into the first like or second month of shooting and he was showing it showing his pieces, I had this revelation about the character that that he's having this kind of existential crisis. And that he's kind of having this existential crisis and this sexual. awakening with his girlfriend Debbie while he's interviewing these psychosexual killers. And so it's this journey of self-discovery, but for someone to have their,

their like personal revelations while talking to these people in these jail cells, it's such an interesting, bizarre, fucked up thing. It's one of the most perverse aspects of the show that access to these kind of minds are giving this straight-arrow characters permission to experiment with their thoughts and emotions and feelings. And it's allowing the Tensch Holden relationship to be what it is. It's allowing him to consider, although, no spoilers, music therapy for his son, right? You know, that all of these things, once you start to let in the gray, there's no keeping it out. And since so much of it is like the semantics of deviance, that comes up a lot during the season is like, well, what do we consider deviant behavior?

What do we consider deviant behavior? and then when you have to go to the killers, you want to know, you want them to articulate that, but you also want to say to them, but you're normal, you're like, you want to make them feel safe enough to talk while also extracting what you need from them

to set up this new language of like this new kind of criminality, right? Right. And it's complicated because what we're doing when we go in there is faking empathy in order to understand them because they're so disgusting. and deplorable and subhuman and what they've done is just so horrific that the idea of going, well, but maybe they did it, you know, maybe there's reasons why they did it. Yeah, you're like, really?

Are we going to spend any time talking to someone that's done something that's cut off their mom's head and like fucked her neck? That's not a spoiler, by that's not a historical record. Yeah, in the 70s. That's just the 70s. I mean, in a way, right? Watergate. Exactly.

But then what does it cost when you fake empathy for those people? And what is, you know, can you glean information? And they do glean information. And it's what's so fascinating about it. It is the birth of criminal profiling, as we know it today, was what happened by these agents going in there and faking it with these guys and learning, and them spilling their guts and them learning so much about them and starting to categorize them and put what they did in context and draw parallels and lines and try to save lives with the information

that they glean. I'm fascinated anytime an actor has to play a role that involves acting, and this is certainly that. The scenes in the jailhouses, these interview scenes, which I don't mean as a disservice to the rest of the show to say that in many ways they're the high point. What was that like as performer? And in this case, as performers, we just talked specifically about the scenes with Edmund and that incredible actor whose name I'm blanking on.

Cameron Britton. Weird to say a star making turn as a monster, but oh, my God. He's incredible. Oh, my God, totally. The three of you, when you're in the room together, I mean, this also might be the time when Fincher steps in, too, because it's like music, the way it's cut, the rhythm of it, the way that Holden and Tengko go into a sort of doubles match. But what is that dynamic like for you as a performer or for all three of you as performers? Because you are all acting and then acting as that while you're acting.

That was the great, like, magnetic thing to me about the experience as an actor going into it is that you would get to do these long, 15, page scenes, which that never exists. And you'd get to play tennis over that course of time with your fellow actors and dive into such deep material. And so, like, when we would do those scenes, those are the, you know, kind of like the centerpiece of the show or those scenes, like you said. And we would go in an hour and a half, sometimes two hours before shooting. First of all, we would rehearse them on the weekends before. And then on the day, on set, we would go in and we would sit, we would go to the set and sit around the table and really go beat by beat.

This is just rehearsing them because we were going to do so many takes and do so much coverage. We wanted to set up the choreography and talk about all the twists and turns and the corners and curly cues that you take and the arc of the scene as a whole. And so it was very detailed and specific work. And in that one, for example, seen with Richard Speck in the ninth episode where I say, you know, what gave you the right to take eight ripe cunts out of the world? That is a spoiler. Oh, sorry, yeah, that's a spoiler.

Wow. I thought they were still in the world. Unbelievable. Go on. They are. it's like so fun because it's the it's holding the character I play taking a tactic to get this guy to open up and there's a very specific physical gesture where he kind of and this is one of the thing we were in the room with fincher and he was like to the actor who played

richard speck you know what if you just like give up and you put your hands out and your head down and then john and then when you know five episodes before debby talks about mirroring and how mirroring is a way to get people to open up. And so I lean my arm, you know, across the table and lean and get right down on the level with him and say something that's so disgusting, but in the language that he would use. And so it's like visually, it's the lines, it's the performance. Everything is so particular and specific in those scenes. And I think it's what makes them so interesting to watch because when he pitched the show to us,

he said, this whole show is people in rooms talking. And the question is, can we make that interesting? It's not. And the thing that's amazing about the show, and I'm curious whether this jumped off the page or something you noticed when you were shooting or even maybe once you actually saw the finished series, is that it's not like anything else that I've seen recently

where there's like a central mystery to be solved or any kind of procedural feeling to it where they're going to solve another case. Yeah, you guys get called to different towns to solve different crimes at times. consult. But it's much more essayistic. It's like, it's like, we're going to talk about the theater of the self, or we're going to talk about deviancy, or we're going to talk about empathy, or these, these like almost vignettes about ideas. And I was wondering how that impacts

understanding like traditional ideas about like, well, okay, I'm an actor and I'm on this arc and I need to get to this point. Like, or was it, or was it exciting to kind of be in a, in this sort of different kind of storytelling? Oh my God. It was so exciting. It's an actor's dream that it's people in rooms talking, and you're talking about such endlessly fascinating, whether it's interviewing the serial killers, or I even love doing the scenes where we're with Dr. Wendy Carr, and we're putting a psychological context on everything that the serial killers say.

I find it so fascinating and the relief of, because, like, you know, we're in Pittsburgh, we're making the show, we think it's really interesting, but I think it shows how much respect Fincher has for the audience because it's not a show that you can really watch while you're texting. No. Or like watch while you're eating. It's something that you really have to lean in for. I would not recommend eating while watching the show.

Yeah, I might just set you off your food as well. I had taco night last day and I did take a break. I'm actually after a while. I will say, I assume people listening to this have watched some of it and would agree with me. But one of my favorite things about the show is that it does leave room for things that are more traditional TV. It doesn't take itself so seriously or preciously that we don't have the travel montage.

Yeah, for sure. You know what I mean? Later in the series, I appreciate that. I feel like they, Jonathan got to do some like Krasinski office, like, mugging, like, kind of like in the background. Totally.

But speaking of things that are traditional or not, I did want to ask you particularly about the relationship between Holden and Tenge, because for me, that is what made me double down in my investment in the show. I just love to see because it is a male professional relationship that is very unique, I think, in media and movies or TV, particularly because from the beginning it is devoid of false friction. These are very different men, very different backgrounds and very different places in their lives. But there is a respect that's there from the beginning, even before TENCH gives up the golf clubs and starts coming to these meetings.

As this relationship develops over the season, and it's done sparingly and delicately and very gracefully, I would say, the, the, the depth of feeling that is allowed between the characters and I think in your scene partner in all. Holt McCallany, yeah. The other guy. Holt McCallany. It's really something special. I think it's a combination of things. The writing was, first of all, really great and really interesting.

And just the setup that you have this older jaded dude and this young guy, which is a dynamic we've seen before. But the young guy has this kind of revolutionary idea that the older guy, can't deny. And even though the older guy has kind of checked out and is doing road school and is happy just in cruise control, he also has this curiosity and interest and genuine desire to be good at what he does. And so they end up kind of, there's this respect, like you said, and need for each other. Holden needs him because he's older and more experienced. And he's intrigued by Holden because he's got this, like, great idea. So there's a, there's an innate need that sets the dynamic in a different way. Also,

a happy accident is that Holt and I are also very different. I mean, just like we sound different, we look different. We're like different species. So it's a credit to the casting that you put us together and just innately we're walking down a hallway and it looks like

yin and yang. It's like two complete opposites. And then we shot the show out of order because of seasons. So they wanted to shoot the whole sort of like mystery in the middle with the gandermans and the brothers and the sister without giving anything away. They wanted that to be in fall and winter. So we shot episodes one. It's high season and Altona right there. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Really amp up the bleakness of that situation. So we shot one, two, seven, eight, nine, ten, three, four, five, six. Oh, weird.

And so we explored the kind of, so what happens towards the end without spoiling anything as things get incredibly complicated in the dynamic of the FBI between the agents and tensions grow high. And as we were diving deeper into that, which we did early on, the writers and David and Josh Donne and our executive producer really felt that it would be important to amp up the bromance in the beginning. They thought, wow, okay, if we amp this up and Holt and I had sort of naturally gotten along and had a sense of humor with each other. And so they wanted to, they had opportunity, it was like kind of a happy accident, to shoot these early episodes later. So it's kind of working backwards. Yeah, we should give a shout out to Joe Penhall, who wrote the pilot and a lot

of the series as well, right? Because there are these little grace notes that I appreciate so much after watching a ton of so-called peak TV where even very, very good shows don't miss any chance to just inject conflict into a situation. I'm thinking specifically about the scene when Holden and Debbie come over for dinner. And we see the home life for the first time. Which is literally a scene from Lethal Weapon. In Lethal Weapon, he invites him over for dinner, and that makes them best friends forever.

But for you guys, it's like, yeah, like I went to your house for dinner. I got to know you a little bit, but that doesn't make us. It was awkward. Yeah. But there are these little moments where it's not false awkward. You know, there's a moment when Debbie takes Nancy's hand.

And it's just a human gesture. Yeah. And it's enough in this show. You know, there's a sense of pacing and a sense of confidence in the storytelling that we didn't need to create. fake things here because she takes her hand and says would you like a big potato with that? She's like hot always. Also in that scene too because I watched it's so interesting when you watch it back and because David

is so amazing in editing and just tells a focus story in every level. So like watching it edited back was so interesting and just even as a viewer when I was watching that scene and we're all sitting around the table and it's so awkward and there's this weird moment of laughter where they're like making fun of me about something that it doesn't seem like I was born in Brooklyn. And it's not funny, but everybody's laughing at it. Yeah. And it just like, it also set me in the time period and that just sort of like repressed, it's just like there's like this repression that has this release with laughter that doesn't make any sense. But as a viewer, kind of in a weird way, put me in the context of the time period. Did you find yourself on the weekends if you had time off needing to go to a place full of

vibrant color? Yeah, right. Because the palette of the show, Pittsburgh in the winter. Yeah. I mean, it is so impeccably done, but it is muted. Or did you just drive a plinth around abandoned factory towns? Exactly. It was a listening tour. Do you guys know where the D-Queen is? The DQ? I would on weekends, to be perfectly honest, I would sit alone in my apartment.

This is really minded. It was very holding forward. First of all, I would wake up. I would go to, oh, what was the place that I would go to? I wish I could remember the name of it because they have the most amazing pancakes Is it Wawa? It was not Wawa.

They don't have Wawa. I love Wawa. But Wawa doesn't go west, right? Like there's that other one, Rally or something. So Wawa's in Lancaster, but does it go out to Pittsburgh? Wawa's definitely on the highway on the way to Pittsburgh. I'm pretty sure that I stopped at Wawa. Although, yeah, I love Wawa and I love their sandwiches. I just feel like it's a safe space

when three people at a table can say Hogi. I just, exactly. I appreciate that. Oh my God, right. Please go on. You were saying about your low. Only weekends. Yeah.

You're depressing. I would basically do master being crying. Yeah. I would eat pancakes every Sunday because I was also, because also this is such a dumb actor thing, but when you're shooting for 10 months,

you can't gain weight. You know, you have to eat. I have to be on a very, like, specific thing. Also, Fincher told me in that initial meeting that he was like, can you not get sick for a year?

Because you're going to be basically shooting every single day, so you have to take care of yourself. You're like, no problem. I was like, yeah, I kind of was. I was like, great. Yeah, I can not get sick.

And I didn't get sick because I took it really seriously. Did you get sick during Hamilton ever? Because that's like physical. So I got sick during Hamilton. It wasn't physical for me because I was only on stage for nine minutes. You know, it's like I just like walked out and sang one song and left. But I got sick the last week that I was there. Oh man. And it was so mortifying because I, my entrance up, it was like I remember it was a Wednesday matinee. I had bronchitis. But it was my last week. So I was like, I can't miss on my last week. I've done this whole run. Yeah. And I want to be there for every show. Yeah. I was

the public and it was a Wednesday matinee and my entrance applause was louder than the applause at the end of my song. They were like, okay, I guess that was. You can go now. We're good. Obama's like, little pitchy. Yeah. It's right.

Exactly. I'm glad you mentioned getting sick during Hamilton because this is something I've always been fascinated with, which is actors and theater people in general, of which I was a recovering member of that tribe. generally people who are very forthcoming with how they're feeling, and if they're feeling a little sniffly or like maybe get sick. And yet to do a show, how many shows a week? Eight shows a week, yeah.

Eight shows a week, you can't. You just kind of can't. So how does that happen? Is it literally that you can somehow psychologically due to the demands and expectations of performance not get sick for 10 months? And then are you then sick for five months? Correct. It kind of does happen that way.

It's also why on the day off I would eat pancakes. and like sit alone on my couch and just like breathe and sleep and watch the crown I did that I remember doing that are pancakes in the same way

chicken soup as the Jewish penicillin or pancakes the Lancaster pancyllum The Amish pencline soft pretzels Yeah exactly A little scrapple on the side There's something about

not eating sugar For six days a week Because like all I wanted was pancakes in the day off But yeah you really have to It's like being a professional athlete Whether it's whether you are shooting for 10 months

are doing eight shows a week. You have injuries. You learn how to work through your injuries. You learn how to negotiate when you're sick and be able to sing. Sometimes you have to take time off or else you'll hurt yourself. But, you know, it's really intense. Was there any mental punishment? I mean, the show itself has a storyline about, like,

you cannot help but let this get under your skin. And almost if you don't, if it doesn't get under your skin, you need to check yourself and think about what's wrong with you. But as an actor, it did it get under your skin? Or were you fascinated by it? I was fascinated by it. The characters that we got to play were so interesting and the dynamics were so interesting. John Douglas, who wrote the book, Mind Hunter, talks a lot in his book and in the emails that

we've shared with Holt, that he's shared with Holt and I, about the physical and emotional toll. And I were actors. Do you know what I mean? Like, yes, Cameron is incredible and was scary, whatever, but then we would joke around between takes. And it almost seems to me disrespectful to even. compare the idea of like getting dressed up in a costume as like a makeup artist is like is like giving me bags under my eyes.

You know, Gigi to the actual person who talked to the serial killers. And even more than that, John Douglas talks about being affected by talking to the victims. And he had a mental breakdown and was in the hospital and to this day suffers, you know, physical and mental trauma from the reality of that situation. So I can't even imagine what that is like, and I know I'm an actor, because being on set, working with David, getting to play really interesting characters and tell a story like this one is a gift. Hey, guys, we'll get back to our conversation with Jonathan Groff in just a second, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Hotel Tonight. I tend to leave things to the last minute, but if you do that for Halloween, that means you end up rummaging through the dregs of the party store bins, trying to scribes. round-jump a costume that'll work. Like, okay, I guess I'm just going to be the stay puff

marshmallow man again for the fifth year running. But when it comes to booking a hotel, being last minute actually works in your favor, as long as you've got the Hotel Tonight app. You can play it by ear and see how your Halloween goes. Maybe you need to ghost and find somewhere to escape to though. Or maybe you'll find the bonnie to your Clyde, or the Clyde to your Bonnie for that matter, and want to keep the night going. Exciting stuff. Or if you're the type who started planning your costume on November 1st of last year, and you like to have things locked down ahead of time, you can actually book a room on Hotel Tonight up to seven days in advance, even book up to 100 days in advance in certain cities. With Hotel Tonight, you'll bag a sweet deal at a

killer hotel, whether you need a room for today, for Halloween or beyond. You definitely want to download the Hotel Tonight app. Today's episode of The Watch is also brought to you by Casper. Casper is a sleep brand that continues to revolutionize its line of products to create an exceptionally comfortable sleep experience one night at a time. With three mattress models, the original Casper, the Wave, and the Essential, Casper mattresses are perfectly designed to soothe and cradle your natural geometry. Not to mention, the breathable design helps you sleep cool and regulates your body temperature throughout the night. And it's delivered to your door in a small, how do they do that sized box with free shipping and returns in the U.S. and Canada.

The best part is you can be sure of your purchase with Casper's 100-night risk-free sleep-on-it trial. After all, you spend one-third of your life sleeping. You should be comfortable. I love the Casper mattress. I've been sleeping on it since I got it last year, I think. But it was great to know that, you know, you go to these mattress stores. You get like 15 minutes. You have to make a decision on a mattress.

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about renewals or whatever or your plane tickets set back for Altoona this winter. This was designed with more, clearly there's more story to tell, and more runway ahead of you for these characters should powers that be decide to allow you to do that. Exactly, yeah. And I love that the, it's so frustrating for me on television shows when you feel like they're being conservative at the end of a season and sort of like careful of like, well, maybe we will or maybe we won't come back, so let's just play it safe at the end of, And, you know, when we made the first season and we still don't know if we're going back for another one,

but they really just let it all hang out there. And to me, when I watched the show back, I think, wow, how are they going to, where are they going to go from here? Yeah, right. If they continue writing that. And I love that. To me, that's just bold storytelling at the end of a first season where I think, how do they pick up from here? It's just, it takes a lot of balls to do that as a writer, I think. I know the show's only been out for a short time, but I have to ask this because I,

I think your career is terrific and fascinating because you have passionate fans in very diverse segments of society. Serial killer fanfif. Well, this is what we're getting to, because I'm wondering if, let's throw a hypothetical out to explain this question. So you're walking down the street in New York City

and you probably get the vibe, okay, someone recognizes me from a certain, you know, 20 feet away and they're coming forward. At what point can you tell if this is a Hamilton fan, a Frozen fan, Right. Probably if they're being pushed in a stroller. They're a looking fan.

Or somebody saying, A, oh, mine, done to it! Yeah, exactly. Or a seven-foot-tall man in size 14 pumps. Oh, pizza. Yeah. But you get what I'm getting at here. I totally get what you're getting at.

The annoying, boring answer is that I don't really get recognized on the street that often. Kids that are fans have frozen, their mom, it's usually their moms. Right. And they're like, this is cool. Christoph, and the kids are like, no, it's not. I don't know, they don't understand the concept of the voice thing. Yes. With the gays that live in Chelsea, where I live, some of them love looking, some of them don't.

You know, everyone's got an opinion about looking. They're all like American sniper. Exactly. Exactly. Sometimes you get lovers, sometimes you get haters. Okay. And then there's like, and then, yeah, it's a really eclectic, unexpected mix when it happens. and I never really know.

And I was just saying this to my friend, you know, the other day where she was like, are you ready? Just I feel like Mind Hunter, like people are going to recognize you on the street. But I just feel like I'm such a generic white boy in my look that I don't have like a dis. People just don't stop me on the street. It's like not a thing that happens. Well, New York, it's like you're supposed to let people walk by. You're not supposed to be like, holy shit, it's groff.

You know, like you. Maybe that's what, thank you for saying that. It's the code of New York. Right. You're the most recognizable. Except the times you walk a reindeer through the seats through the streets. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure if you've ever been.

I was like in a Norwegian. Yeah, exactly. Outfit and had a reindeer. My last question is really, I mean, I kind of just want to pump you for Fincher's stories the whole time. But any times, like, is there B-roll or like blooper reel footage from Mine Hunter where it's like cut? And then like three of you pull out fidget spinners for your iPhone. And it's like you're in an Eastern Airlines or a TWA plane, but one of you is like tweeting or something like that. I wish that the bloopers started at cut, but they usually start somewhere between action and cut.

I had this, there is a blooper reel, actually, that we showed at the rap party, yeah. Because I think it's a couple of things. Like, first of all, because he's very particular to about costume. You know, and every costume is meticulously picked out down to the fabric of the suit and the fabric of the shirt. and he didn't want to see a lot of wrinkles in my character's shirts, right? Because Holt is kind of the messy, you know, shirt-untucked thing, but I'm the more like the... So I wore these, we called him hold-ups where they attach my shirt to my socks. Oh, wow.

What? To keep the shirt straight, you know, when we're walking with no, right? So I'm in this, like, uniform-based corset, basically, right? And then, you know, it's sometimes the material is very dark and serious. and intense and so it's very serious the whole thing. So I had the, it was like a little bit of an epidemic where I would lose my shit and just start hysterically laughing. Also just something about Holt in general cracks me up. He's just and you'll meet him, I'm sure at some point, he's just hilarious as a person. Yeah. So there is a

blooper real and it's a lot of us like just like losing it in the middle of incredibly serious moments. One time I had to like do, yeah. No, go ahead. One time you do what? I had to do laps because I couldn't get it back. Because this thing happens and maybe this is ever to you guys where like ever like all a sudden people will laugh, right? And the crew is laughing and it's funny and it's like, oh my gosh, it's so crazy. These guys don't think we're funny enough. Well, this is the thing. Then you'd be on set and then the crew would stop laughing and then I think it's really funny.

Because once people start to get annoyed. Yeah. Because it's like trying to get lunch. Exactly. Yeah. I was going to ask who the biggest, I guess, cut up is the wrong word for serial killers, but who the funniest serial killer on this set was? Oh, great question. Who is the, I would say, I mean, they were all pretty in it. Like, those, you know, taking it very seriously, they all, like, did their research, knew

what they were doing. It's so funny because none of them were really cut-ups, maybe happy Anderson, who played Jerry Brutus. Yeah. He also, that his character has that. That, like, horrifying laugh as well. So there was this element of, like, jovality. Is that a word?

Jovality? Sure. Sure. To him, Holt was definitely the biggest cut up on set. He was, like, always telling really bad dad jokes and just, like, making people left. By the way, small Holt, comp. This is my only knit I want to pick. Yeah.

The character's 44 years old? Yeah. I mean, no disrespect, because his performance is one of my favorite of the year. But I'm just saying, I'm staring down the barrel. That's four years. years ahead of me. And is it the seven, is it the steaks? You gotta get some big potatoes.

Yeah. Because he said in an interview the other day, like, I'm so, like, grateful that they made me 44. So he's, like, made jokes about that as well. Okay, good. So it's, I don't know, you know, age. People age different. Honestly, like, my mom is 63 years old.

I think she looks 43. You know, everyone looks different at different ages, right? Like, minehunter 43? Yeah. Or like, I'm just, no offense. She looks, it's like 60s the new 40. That's like sort of what my mom is offering up. And finally, because we have you here,

and I do have a four and a half year old daughter, Frozen 2. Yeah, I just started recording it like two months ago. So the work has started. The great work has begun. Wow. Easy to slip back into those snowshoes? Yeah, because, you know, anytime you work on something the first time around,

everybody's feeling each other out and getting to know each other. And not on eggshells, but there's like kind of this, you know, when you meet someone for the first time, it's like if they get to know you game, in addition to creating something. And then Frozen was this insane success. And it bonded all of us throughout the press or whatever.

And we've all become very close. The directors and the writers and the cast. And so now coming back into it, there's this warm feeling of just comfortability with each other personally. You've been part of two phenomenons in that way. I mean, Hamilton as well. Any truth to the rumor that Frozen 2 will be the dark part of the trilogy? Like Empire Strikes Back is that. Oh my God, I hope so. Temple of Doom. Oh my God, right. Yeah. I'm only allowed to say that I've started recording Frozen 2. I was realizing that. You said that. I was like, wow, he's been very forthcoming.

That is language they have definitely provided for you. They were like, on the way out of the recording thing, And they were like, and by the way, you can say you've recorded it, but you can't say anything else. It sounds such lockdown. Yeah. Right. Because get, buckle up. Ready. Yeah.

Can you, yeah. Jaws here. Well, we're very happy to have you join us to talk about this. It's so fun. Amazing show. I'm so glad you guys like the show. We love the show. Because I love you guys.

We hope you go back to Pittsburgh for 10 months. Well, if we do, you have to come visit. Yeah. We would. I love French fries. Yeah, me too. Walk to the Pirates game, with French fries and literally everything.

Yeah, let's do it. And the Warhol Museum. Yeah, which was great. Okay, see, so it's good. And our makeup, the head of makeup, Gigi Williams, was like a Warhol girl. Oh, no way. Yeah, and so she went to the museum

and she was like, I peed on that picture, because he has that famous one with the copper where she was like, I peed on that. She didn't say that about any of the makeup implements. She's like, no, that's my thing. Special cleaning. Yeah. So, and then we can also,

At that point, we can also pilot our new podcast, Keeping a PA with the three of us. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, that's actually a great idea. I think. Because that is a thing. Some of limited, you know, demographic. Hugely limited.

Yeah. Oh. Not sure if pods really, like, hit between. It's not going to be very popular. Yeah. But that's okay. That's fine. That's okay.

That's not what art is about. You've had these fluke successes, but really it's about. It's about keeping a PA. Exactly. That's all we can say. John and God, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Hotel Tonight.

You can play it by ear and see how your Halloween goes. Or if you're the type of person who started planning your Halloween costume on November 1st of last year, you like to have things locked down ahead of time. You can actually book a room with the Hotel Tonight app up to seven days in advance. You can even book up to 100 days in advance in certain major cities. With the Hotel Tonight app, you'll bag a sweet deal at a killer hotel, whether you need a room for today for Halloween or beyond. you definitely want to download the Hotel Tonight app.