The Watch - Is ‘Alien: Earth’ Stuck in Place? Plus, Emmy Predictions and ‘Big Little Lies’ Season 3 News.

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the news that 'Mr. & Mrs. Smith' Season 2 will be delayed indefinitely now that cocreator Francesca Sloane has been tapped to write on 'Big Little Lies' Season 3 (1:46). Then, they preview the Emmys by predicting which shows (and actors) could win, will win, and should win the major categories (18:52). Later, they break down the sixth episode of ‘Alien: Earth’ and discuss their complicated feelings about the FX series (36:40). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, it's like asking an onion, how do I take care of a star? It's Andy Greenwald. I know you're referencing a good line from the alien episode

that we're going to talk about today. One of them. I definitely misheard it. And I thought he said it's like asking an onion to take care of a shop. And I was like, does the shop sell onions? Again, it's implausible. Yeah. Andy, we are going to talk about the sixth episode of Alien Earth.

We are going to talk about some Emmy stuff. Yeah. I feel bad because I was like a little bit dismissive of the creative arts Emmys. It was not in any way. You're like, everybody gets an Emmy these days. I was just in, you know, there was a wide swath of categories. And I was like, it seems like we're doing participation trophies. It does track with your feelings about winning and losing in the Snowflake Society.

It does track. What else are we doing today? Oh, we're going to talk a little bit of news at the top. And it's news gathered by the Dan Rather of this podcast, Andy Greenwald. Who's Kai? What are you talking about? No, but you have like a bunch of stuff you wanted to go through this morning. Oh, some of that's not news.

Oh, okay. So, okay, so I have, we have one bit of news. We have one small digression. And then I had like three task talking points. Yeah. Tasking points, if you will, that we could do. Yeah, task points. That was a courtesy laugh from Kai.

You've been on vacation. Pre-vacation, Guy wouldn't know laugh at that. I think that we can make this like a running Thursday bit. It's just like after the task. Comes the after task? The talk. The talk. All right.

Well, the first bit of news, which I do think was interesting, is that Francesca Sloan, a friend of the pod, I think. She came on here to talk about her excellent Mr. Mrs. Smith. Is she from Philly? Yeah, I think there's. Yes, she is. Yeah. So she probably likes task. That's cool.

Is everything going to be task and chase now? Which is it no matter who comes on the pod for the rest of this. You ever been to Philly? Do you like task, bro? Do you even know? That's fine. You ever jumped into a quarry? Not us.

Couldn't be us. She has signed an overall deal at HBO, seemingly tied to her penning Big Little Lies season three, which is kind of a big deal. There is a secondary recoil to the story, which is Mr. Mrs. Smith season two, which was cast with Yellowjackets, Sophie Thatcher, and this. a dude from Anora, who should have a name, Mark Eidelstein. Yeah. Stein. They were going to be Mr. Mrs. Smith. They got a California tax credit, which is not a small thing these days.

Oh, wow. And now it's delayed, paused. Will this ever happen? What's the reason for it? We don't know. Do you think that's number one on Gavin Newsom's to-do list today is to find out what happened to the tax credit for Mr. and Mrs. Smith? Do you think that he will find out in his dozy Don voice?

Because if so, we may never know. anyways I thought that was interesting what is the red line what is the you shall not cross line of because this is now the second show that HBO is taken not taken from anyone you know I'm sure David E. Kelly is going to be involved maybe as an executive producer on Big Little Eyes

season definitely three or whatever season three yeah what's the line where they are like this belongs to the creator versus this is something that we would Like to see if it's got legs. Like, would they bring back true blood? Would they bring back true blood if somebody had a take on it? Would they bring back?

It's a really good question. I think that they're, you know those org charts that people do where it's like, here's the question. Yes, then they do one thing. So I think the thing is, was this show created by a man named David? If so, they will not be rebooting it. That's what I was wondering. If the show was created by anyone other than a man named David. And it could be David in first name, last name.

Oh, not David Kelly. Oh, so I've totally botched it. Okay. Kyle, what's an org chart? Can you Google that for me? Okay. Don't treat her like Jamie

on the Rogan. She Googled something last week. Guy, Kai, Kai, bring up, bring up Pink Lilal Eyes. What happens on that show? What were you referencing? Is that a podcast? I've never listened to it, but I guess that's where you get your snowflake takes.

So, what are you really telling on yourself this week, pal? There's some amazing task recap on Rogan these days. Are there? Where's my camera? I wouldn't know. Look at my camera, say it if you really believe it. I think what you're hinting at is part of the larger industry shift of the big things will continue to get made

and the things that don't quite hit or don't quite hit the Venn diagram of what breaks through these days might not. And I think that, you know, again, I don't know Amazon's business, but, you know, they are experiencing legitimately, I think, even in the opaque world, the streaming legitimately big success with Samurai Turn Pretty, with the Terminalists' Extended Universe. Dark Wolf. Dark Wolf. Yeah. Remember when I used to call you that?

It's like early 2000s. And so the sort of the vanity project, like Donald Glover, big overall deal, if you're some IP that we want to develop, making a show that I loved. Yeah. That was well regarded. They got Emmy nominations. But I don't know if it was, I don't know if it ran with the Dark Wolves in terms of its, like, impact. the casting on the season two is exciting and intriguing, but these are not stars.

This is not necessarily like household names that are driving clicks in the way that Amazon wants their shows to. So maybe it just is kind of going away for that reason. And thus Francesca Sloan, who's very talented, washes up on the shores of big IP, bigger IP, let's say, which is Big Little Lies. Do you think we should pitch Casey Bloyes and Francesco Orsi on our spin on industry,

even though industry is still going about two guys who don't know how to log into E-Trade. Go on. Tell me more. Two guys who listen to guess the lines every week but still don't understand what the numbers mean. Yeah. That's me. Plus or minus. Who knows?

I was with my younger daughter at a mall the other day, the story is great. And there was a game stop there. And she's like, that store looks cool. Can we go in? And I was like, oh, yeah. I love that store when I was a kid because I like video games. And she's like, I like video games.

I'm like, this is a beautiful moment. And we walk in. And it's all just like Princess Zelda toadstool backpack merch. They don't sell games anymore because you can just download them. Yeah, you just get them from server. And I found myself, I was like,

well, what else can I tell her about this? And I was like, you know, one time Chris had the guys who created industry on to explain meme stocks. But then I realized, first of all, I didn't actually do that. But also, I don't even understand the premise of what you had the guys on for that day. Of GameStop stuff? I don't understand any of that.

It's too elaborate to get into. I will mention just in terms of your comment about. Sure. It's time to really, if we want us to invest, it's going to be in something that we have a really good feeling

about working. I noted with interest that Phoebe Wallerbridge finally got off the IR and was like, okay, here's the Tomb Raider script and I'm all in on it and we cast Sophie Turner as Lara Croft.

Which had been rumored for a long time. Yeah, but it's like, I mean, I wasn't suggesting that Phoebe Wallerbridge was somehow like slow rolling the people at Amazon or anything like that. I believe she's pregnant. I'm sure she's got other things going on in her life.

But I was saying... Do you just drop the news? Do you break the news? Wasn't there a picture of Phoebe Wallerbridge walking around pregnant? Oh, so it's a problem when I asked Kyya for help? Also, why did I ask Kyya? I can Google it. No, I mean, you're right to ask me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think it's been like...

That's the woman in the room. Come on. She didn't announce it. She's not announced it, but she kind of went the Sersher Ronin route where she just got... Started walking around. Yeah, walking around pregnant. Do you want to weigh in on that? Okay.

There are no confirmed reports of Phoebe Wallerbridge being pregnant until the watch podcast broke the news. I'm sure she was just getting the Tomb Raider script dialed. In any case, my point was that her, honestly, her first significant, like, I'm writing this post-killing Eve season one thing, right? That's solely hers. I mean, she did passes on things. She worked on Indiana Jones. Like, I'm not saying that. But, like, yeah, like, this is her, my return to television is Tomb Raider.

So are you bringing this up also because you're suggesting that Phoebe Wallerbridge is now faded to take over Big Little Lies Season 4? Is that the arc? Maybe. I don't know. Okay, I got a couple other things for you quick. Please hit me. One was I do just want to shout out our friend, our colleague, Sean Fantasy, because for the people who listen to this podcast or the Big Picture who subscribe to the great criterion channel, Or by physical media like myself.

Or like you or Tracy Lutz. No, but Sean did the intro for the, they have a special on Altman this month for his 100th birthday. And first of all, the little doc they did, 20 minute thing, is excellent. Sean is great in it. And I really recommend it for people who aren't familiar with Altman or for people who love Altman,

but maybe haven't thought about him in a while or want to get excited about watching his movies. Is that you? Which one are you? I am quite familiar. Yeah. I thought Sean was really, really persuasive in his argument that he's pretty good.

Yeah. She's pretty good at making movies. But I also thought it would just, I mean, I think people should check it out. I thought Cha made a really good point about how like his mischievous sensibility is very much missing in our media these days. Yeah. But particularly, Long Goodbye, one of my favorite Altman movies,

one of my favorite movies of the 70s, I was rewatching it and realizing it's a great time to do it because we are about to be blessed with Sterling Harjo's follow-up to Reservation Dogs, which is the lowdown on FX. and he has said, he has said point blank, he said it to me and to others, that movie is his North Star. Yeah, I think we could probably have a lot of fun putting together a low-down syllabus.

Oh, yeah, good idea. Of just, you know, rumpled detectives working in far-flung places or big cities and making their way through a quagmire of a case, you know, when we could revisit some of our favorite detective novels if you wanted to? We love doing that. Do you have a favorite almond that's up there?

I don't want to put you on the spot because it's not like there's a bad answer. I think that my Altman choices are a little bit chalky. It's like Nashville and Mash and McCabe. And Longabai is probably my favorite, but I tend to veer towards like the pop Altman. I mean, pop like agreed upon cinematic masterpieces Altman rather than... Secret Honor and Mrs. T. and the women. Yeah, like honestly, and I think for some of those, I'm like,

I have some blank spots. Yeah. Yeah. But the player is huge for me. Gosford Park. Godfurt Park fucked me up. That movie's so good. What was the first album, you saw?

In the theater or just... No, like in your life, do they? MASH. My parents used to watch MASH a lot. Did they really? Yeah. They loved MASH. That's pretty cool.

Yeah. That's a good, like, formative memory. Yeah, I mean, I was that... I think that was maybe my introduction to... swearing. No, it's just a lot of the actors in that movie. I'm just thinking about like, is that my first Elliott Gold movie?

Like, I think so. Probably, yeah. My answer isn't as cool. My answer is Popeye because it was on Prism, the Philadelphia Cable Movie Network a lot when I was like home from school. And I was like, yeah, it's like the cartoon, and that's Mork. I think that people should also check out Sean's video the made where he goes through a lot of the Altman's that are available on physical media.

And it's really cool. He has a bunch of different editions and a bunch of biographies about Altman. and it's really like a total all-media kind of survey of the available stuff on Allman. It's really great. Good job by Sean. Who would have thought that that's the same guy who threw you out of his apartment

for rooting for the Patriots over the Jets once? He just said, I'm going to kick you out if you don't stop talking about Tom Brady. To be clear, you should, this is task adjacent. You were not a Patriots fan. You were just, like we said last week, you just pick a team. Well, okay, so here's the thing.

I am not a Patriots fan. And when the Eagles beat the Patriots in 2007, 19. Early 18. I celebrated as if it was like victory in Europe day. There's video on the internet. Yeah. That being said. It's incredible that I'm not like Nicopi Dean right now.

My kneecap didn't detach. Some people are ball knowers. I'm ball appreciator. And I appreciated Tom Brady to Randy Moss. And when I was at Sean's house, Sean's a Jets fan. We were watching Jets Patriots. And I think Tom Brady threw like an 80s, yard touchdown to Randy Moss.

And I celebrated. I celebrated beauty. It was greatness. It's just like me at the Uffizi. If I see something I like, it's touchdown hands. What do the Carabinierey think of that? They big fans of how you behave in public spaces?

I was just, I got out of hand and Sean was like, you can either be quiet or leave. I respect it. Also, this is very, very brocoded in that we were like, let's say nice things about Sean for five minutes, and then let's remind him about Tom Brady

dog. walk to every Sunday for 10 years. Anyway, okay, last thing before we get into today's business, we're going to talk Emmys a little bit, an alien. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Three small task notes that I just wanted to address. Okay. One, we repeatedly, and some might say aggressively,

mispronounce the name of the director last week. Jeremiah Zagar. Zagar. I apologize. It was a coin flip, but I'm sorry. I did think about that. There were two tells that I should have caught. One is the appetizing emporium on the upper west side of Manhattan is not called Zabars.

Right. Zabars. So I figured that would have been a nice one. But the other thing is that Jeremiah's father is Isaiah Zagar, who is a very famous muralist in Philadelphia, whose work we've grown up seeing our whole life. It's my bad. I think I led the way and you followed me. I mean, I trust you generally, not in Italian art museums, but otherwise.

Okay, that was one. Two, one of my favorite, you know, I don't, I know you're a little bit above it, but like I like to get into the scrum, like when people are talking about stuff and response and stuff. And one of my favorite things that I saw over the last few days. You love online discourse. I do. I find it to be very, especially about sparkling water. I found this to be very, very compelling, which was that there was a conspiracy theory that we intentionally didn't say the name Martha Plimpton. why? I'm not sure.

You were committed to saying her name. I guarantee whoever wrote that comment, I like Martha Plimpton more than you. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. I think that's true. I wanted to see who could say Martha Plimpton more in this podcast

because in these people's defense, and then I will switch to offense, you did seem committed to, like, calling her McGinty. Well, she's in one scene, and she sends him on a task. So it's right there in the title. I just, I thought she was very good,

but I just didn't feel like that. needed to have like an elaborate breakdown. I think that's fair. Yeah. I think on the flip side of the argument, everybody should touch grass and log off. That's kind of what I think. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Yeah, I just, I want, Martha knows how you feel about her. I don't know. She does now. Last thing was, and I again, I'm not, I don't want to put you on the spot. You could come back to me on Monday with this. But one of the best things for us as Philadelphia natives

in the premier episode of task was that out the gate, Roughload just hits a triple. Yeah. Right. In one piece of dialogue, he says, he says Scrapple, he says Acme, the supermarket of our youth, and he says, Water Ice. Do you think, A, Brad Ingallsby, in order to, like, keep the same energy will give a character another Holy Trinity at the top of this episode, and what do you think it might be?

I have some options. Okay. Do you think that Robbie might say, in light of the events of the premiere, and we won't spoil them, that it's probably time to hit the Mac machine down to Center City before heading to the shore? Do you think that, or do you think it's time to like... I think hitting the Mac machine means something different to Robbie than it does to most people. Yeah. Let me, this is not Googling.

Kai, do you know what a Mac machine is? Does that... No. It's an ATM. Money Access Center is what they used to be called. What I understand, and I definitely, like my parents still call it that. Yeah. that the first ATMs were in Philadelphia and called Macs.

I didn't know that, but I do remember it being like really early on and there was a lot of like anxiety about the Mac machine taking your card. Oh my God. Everyone was so freaked out. It was going to take your card. And not give it back. Because like there were times where it's like the fucking Mac ate my card. Yes.

The Mac ate my code. Did it ever eat your card? I didn't have a card. I was a child. Oh. My parents would just say, here's $10. Make it last. We got to watch MASH again.

Go play in the. the street made you who you are today. That's right. I was like Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons, just riding around on my little train set by myself. Go to the Mac machine. Just going to Mac machine. Up! They took the card again. Re-opping my subscription to Prism to watch Popeye and be like, what a great director.

Surely this is his best film and this in no way is informing my personal taste and aesthetic for the rest of my life. Okay, other option for the trifecta would be buying some pork roll to Wawa before the Eagles game. Uh-huh. The third one, this is a little more niche, but if you go to get a Sunday on Sunday and get Jimmy's on it. Do you know what Jimmy's are, Kai? Sprinkles, right? Okay. I would say.

Also, no hoagie talk. There could be some hoagies. That much, I would imagine. I would imagine. You know what? I'm not going to pretend. Like, I don't know. Because I've watched the second episode.

Wow. This is how I find out. Well, you're the one who's like, I wait until Sunday. 6 p.m. You know, it's like, I like to start thinking about these things. You know, I like to start getting the wheels turning. It takes a little, you know, it looks like it's effortless, but it takes a lot to get this ready in the morning. You know what I mean? Must be nice. Must be nice. I watch with the people. That's right. Everybody says you, you're down there in the trenches. I would say that it's more

finely integrated, but incredibly notable for people like us, for people from Philadelphia. Okay. That's exciting. Blend it in, though. Blended in. But there's a couple of Whoa, did I just hear that? I'm very excited about that. Well, tune in on Monday. Thanks for today's show, everyone. Well, I want to talk to you a little bit about the Emmys. I hit a little bit of, I would say, not extensive, but moderate historical research.

Because I was like, you know what? Did you really? I've always been such a dick about the Emmys, or at least very dismissive of their importance. And I often think to myself, does you've said that before? I just think, you know what the delta between what wins and what people or what I or my, you know, people I talk to about, television. Okay. Talk about as great television.

Right. Versus what won a lot at Emmys is just so huge. It's a wide. That I find myself often like being very kind of like, who gives a shit, who wins an Emmy or it doesn't. I know who gives a shit, the people who are nominated for Emmys. For sure. One thing that I think is tough with the Emmys is that when you look back and you're like,

ooh, I would love for X to win or I love, wouldn't it be amazing if Y was recognized for its accomplishments? just never really happens. In fact, the surprises with the Emmys, especially over, like, I would say maybe, like, the time that we've been doing this podcast, is generally, like, there is something that is really good,

universally acknowledged as such, and everybody is like, now it's truly Jonathan Banks' time, and he doesn't win. You know, like something else. The surprise is... Yeah, it's like the surprise goes against, let's just say critical conventional wisdom,

if not conventional wisdom. Yeah. So I wouldn't get my hopes up that if you're out there and you're like, maybe and or will, like, shock the world and win outstanding drama, which isn't the only outcome that I will allow. I mean, of course, like, I love a lot of these shows that are nominated for outstanding drama. But you're saying people should reset their expectations, recalibrated.

Well, not even now. I think I was just talking to myself. I think as I was trying to, like, kind of look for precedence of, was there ever a time when, like, am I wrong or did Madman? come out of nowhere and win. It hasn't really happened that much. There are things where you're like, oh, okay, like maybe the first time

I don't even know, like maybe the first time the crown won. Maybe people were like, oh, okay, so you guys really like the crown. And then it was like the crown just wins three times in a row or whatever. I think that's exactly right. There was a time, you know, when the Golden Globes in their previous obscure shadowy cabal iteration would, to get headlines to differentiate themselves, be early anointers.

The example I always use is Homeland winning Best Drama Series when I think the first season hadn't even finished airing. And then, and they would always, the Golden Globes, I think, pride at itself on being a little bit more radical, a little bit more conversation driving.

The thing that the Emmys tend to do is clarify what is mainstream in a way that is increasingly difficult in this super fractured media, but television especially ecosystem. So when HACs won, first time, I think there was a lot of excitement and celebration, both because Lucci and Paul and Jen are very talented people and very likable people and the show is really good. But I think it was

also like a, oh, a little Joe Pesci, you guys were serious about that. You're all watching this and yourself, you like this. Yeah. What the Emmys then does is, you know, dust off its hands and just spam the button and only vote for the same thing again and again after that once you've crashed the party. That said, I think there are going to be some first time, pretty prominent first time winners this year, but for a show like Andor, which is obviously critically adored, adored by this podcast, but there's no chance of... Very similar to The Wire where it's like the ball knowers know, but I think it's a difficult show to... If you haven't watched all of it and you aren't like fully versed with it,

I think people are probably like, yeah, but it's Star Wars. And instead it's like, and I also think Outstanding Drama just has so many heavy hitters in it. But also try and remember in this case, similar to the wire, created by David, I should say. The wire existed at a time when HBO was pot committed at that point and they were going to finish the show. Andor is finished. So the Emmys could burnish its long-term reputation

or maybe draw a few extra eyeballs to it, although to your point, like these are very, very textually dense shows. The nomination for a show like Andor, I do think, I mean, I would love for it to win, but I think the nomination is the victory lap. on what was already a triumph. Other shows, the needle could be moved

in their survival if they do triumph. I was just going to say that, with the exception for outstanding drama, and I thought maybe we could do should win, we'll win here. Yeah. And let's start with drama instead of comedy because comedy is like a separate conversation about what is a comedy, I think.

We're the ones to have that conversation. Yeah, I mean, that's the debate, I think we've embraced the most. For drama, I think you could make an argument for every nominee except for probably slow horses that it, and I like,

I love slow horses, but that it could or should win. With maybe the exception of Paradise, you know what I mean? Like I'm aside from our like incredible affection for one episode of Paradise, I don't necessarily think it's an accomplishment on this level. Although I would argue that Paradise and the diplomat of these nominees might be

and last of us, I guess, might be like the most watched. I have no idea, like honestly, But like, Paradise makes sense for me in the same way that Dan Fogelman, the creator's previous show, this is us as constant nominations made sense in that like this isn't, you know, it's hanging on, but it is still an industry town and people who work on TV and work regularly on TV do and get to vote,

do like to celebrate something that feels more meat and potatoes. Like, we used to make things in America. Like, this is a TV show that takes wild swings, goes for it, is not aimed. at the ivory tower and is going to be back in 11 to 12 months. Like that matters. So I understand why it's there. So I'll just say that the outstanding drama nominees are Andor, the diplomat, The Last of Us, Paradise, the Pit, Severance, Slow Horses,

and joining us in a regular drama series. I believe it had two seasons of being a limited series, right? I think it had jumped for this last season, but I could be wrong. Okay, the White Lotus. First of all, pretty solid. Yeah. Pretty solid list. I think the outlier is last of us because it, I don't know.

I am not, despite my Sunday night viewing habits, I'm not a reliable voice of the people on this. But like, did not seem like it matched the audience approval level of the first season. But more than anything else. Very hard to tell because of the gamer community. True. With all due respect. Like, their outrage at, like, the lack of fidelity to the video game, I think is tough. Yeah.

I also think that it was barely a season. It was, truly, though, like, it was very short. It peaked early, and it demands the second half in order to tell a fuller story. That feels more like entropy to me, like, well, the first season was an accomplishment and ratings, and so here we are. You know what? that was a very like astute summary of I think where that season ended up even though I think I liked it more than you. It's weird though because 10, even 10 years ago, this category was when you voted for best show,

but it was like, what's the analogy is it's like MVP season of an ongoing career? The sense was that a lot of these contenders would be back in the arena next year. And this year, West Wing got the best of... We don't need to do LeBron this year because he's going to be up for MVP for the next 10 years. But now we are in a sort of a strange mix of shows that we are celebrating because of their reliability and their consistency. In this case, it would be slow horses at the pit and I would imagine Paradise. And then shows that are kind of sort of still in the wrong category, but it's okay, like Andor and White Lotus. And then there's Last of Us, which is on a two to three.

year cycle. And diplomat sounds kind of an offside. Diplomat is more traditional in its entertainment goals than its reach, but it has kind of, it's had kind of a herky-jurkey release schedule, too, if I'm not mistaken. The first season's about to come out. So it caught up, so maybe that was strike affected. But the second season was shorter than the first season. Anyway, we don't need to, but severance also is another example of it.

It's like when it pops up, it's going to be continued here. See you in 28, brother. Exactly. What do you think should win here? This is... And this can be different than what do you think the best show in this category is? I mean, I think that of these shows, the best season of television, the best across the board is Andor. But I'm going to say should win, will win is the pit.

Me too. Because... But I'm saying I don't think winning outstanding drama is not bringing Andor back. That's right. Andor is perfect. and or will probably be my favorite show of the year. Yep. I just think that I want the most amount of people possible to watch The Pit.

I think we're on our way. And the Pit is coming back in January. And it's like, let's keep it rolling, you know? Yeah. So maybe that's, yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. It's not a aesthetic kind of like critical judgment on what the best show is. I just think it would be great if the Pitt won best drama. Well, I think this is also an example of one of those like tweak categories that we sometimes come up with when we're suggesting how they could,

do it differently. It's like a, I don't know if it's like a record of the year versus album of the year. Is it achievement in television, which would be the best show of the year, you know, which would combine things from across categories into one category of excellence and or is the best achievement. But I think that again, it's like this season was absolutely jaw-dropping, but it's hard not to think of it as one whole across two seasons. We can go through the other categories a little bit quicker, but it's outstanding comedy is Abbott Elementary, the bear, hacks, nobody wants this, only murders in the building,

shrinking the studio and what we do in the shadows. Should win, will win. I think the studio will win. The studio is going to win. And I think the studio should win. Yeah, it's my guy. You know, we are consensus builders. Do you want to know why?

I'm tired of having the hacks, the bear fight. That's exactly right. If you guys can't figure it out between the two of you, work it out. He's going to get it. I think that's right. First of all, you'd be a great dad. That's exactly right. I agree.

You're going to have a third kid to see if that works, though. I don't know. Oh, great, great point. Right now I'm just, I just take the conch shell from Lord of the Flies and just give it to one and then go it to the other. They love it. I tell them about meme stocks. We have a good time. I agree.

I also think that we need fresh blood in this category. But again, I don't know. Maybe it's circling back to your point about how seriously we take the Emmys. I would be fine with nobody wants this winning because it was new. It was popular. And it changes the fun. It's fun to watch. That's fine to me.

What we do in the shadows of these shows is probably the funniest on a consistent, like, joke-to-joke basis. But the studio, if there was that best show category, I think would be in that category, just in terms of the achievement and the filmmaking and the style and the personality and the vibes. And in addition to the performance and the comedy. So I think it's really impressive. I think the creative art to Emmys last week made it clear that this town loves shows about this town and the studio is going to win. Outstanding limited to wrap things up. Adolescence, Black Mirror, Dying for Sex, Monsters, The Lyle and Eric Menendez story, or The Penguin.

I can't believe how chalk we are here. Should could. Should will is adolescence, I think. Adolescence should. It's no disrespect to the other shows in this category. It's not even a conversation. Do you think that the penguin's going to win? The penguin has a chance to win this, yeah.

I can actually see adolescents dying for sex or the penguin winning. I don't. People love dying for sex. Talk about these people. Who are you talking to? People who have watched dying? for sex are like this is a very important story to me. I did not engage with it, but like I'm just, I'm just saying. I think that that is a similar argument you can make for adolescence,

and I think this will be the test of how many people, like the, the, I won't watch adolescence because I have a feeling it's going to fuck me up. upset me. Yeah. We don't know how big that voting block is. Yeah. But it's not insignificant. And that would be the, the impediment to it winning. And I think it's similar to dying for sex. So people are like, this also kind of seems like a, bummer if it's more the first word than the last word, which would clear a lane for the penguin, which... Can you imagine you giving notes? Can we get more the sex?

Can we choose one of the other? That's fine. Guys. That's the note I gave to Twisters. I'm very happy to give that note again. It is really interesting the way the penguin, which costs upwards, you know, $200 million or whatever a major, major show cost these days on a top-tier streaming service, has become weirdly like an underdog in the way that it is discussed

and championed. That's a testament, I guess, to the job that was done to make the show what it was. Again, we didn't respond to it. It has all the hallmarks of what would be a kind of classic HBO crime show

that just happens to take place in Gotham with a guy wearing a prosthetic scene. And Colin. Yeah, right. I agree. I just really hope, and I think this might be too much to ask, I would really like to see new winners. Like, no disrespect to Gene Smart, who is no less good in season four of hacks than she was in seasons one, two, and three, it would be nice to see someone else win.

I think that would just make for a better broadcast, but also would be a healthier sign of an industry, you know? I think we didn't touch on it, but like we both think the pitch should win and will win. It's competition of severance, which I think would also be fresh blood and would tell, but I think it would tell a different story about the industry right now. And I'll say that, like, this isn't breaking any news, but on the other side of the glass, the show everyone is chasing now is the pit.

Sure. Like industry-wise, that's the show people want to be making. And I just top of your head, they're probably, the answer is they're probably both bad, but would you rather see a B-minus knock-off of the pit or B-minus knock-off of severance? It's really hard to say. Those are completely different flavors.

and they are both unique in the ways they are successful. The answer, honestly, is we're probably going to get a lot of both. But I don't know if one is easier or better to watch or more preferable. I guess probably I would say the pit because the breath of fresh air that it is to see a story grounded in reality, even if it's a heightened reality or even if it's a compressed reality, is so cool and refreshing. And it's like, I think even for the, how harrowing adolescence is,

like seeing something approximating real life depicted on screen has been like such a boost for me that I don't really need another allegory for what life is like. I'd kind of like to see a little bit more of what, but that's just where my taste is a good segue to alien talk, honestly, because I'm feeling that. The only other thing I'll say is the funniest outcome to look for

on Sunday night would be in the supporting actors supporting categories and drama in supporting actor and drama series we have one to three nominees from severance one two three nominees from White Lotus and James Marsden from Paradise all these dudes cancel each other out

and Marsden Victoria walks away as the prez the same thing could happen the wild cat in supporting cards you remember wildcat Cal president Cal also it would be amazing for a guy to win an award for a role in which he dies in the first episode. That is not a spoiler, I don't think. He's in the whole season.

I think that's in the commercial, but I don't know if that's true. So there you go. Kai, do you want to just like beep that? I think that would be fun for people. It would see blanks in the first episode. Just to say, that could happen. What would the alternative be? It's either dying or sex.

The whole world, baby. Two doors. What are you choosing? Don't start looking at Rogan. to give you advice for that too. Joe, what do we do? Supporting actress in a drama series, it could go the same way.

We've got Patty Arquette, severance, we've got Carrie Coon, White Lotus, Parker Posey White Lotus, Natasha Rothwell White Lotus, Amy Lou Wood White Lotus, the Queen Catherine and NASA for the pit. But what if Julianne Nicholson just emerges from the wreckage,

much like her character? What's her name, Jasbo? What is it? Coltrane. Okay, sure. Isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. She could win. She won last week for guest appearance. So what if it's...

Guest appearance on... Hacks. Hacks. Gets in a comedy. Wow. But doesn't that bode well for Hax's acting chances? Hacks could win comedy again. People love voting for Hacks.

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Enjoy free shipping on all U.S. orders over $75 plus free returns, exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Let's talk about Alien Earth, Episode 6, The Fly, written by Noah Hawley. directed by a ugly hawk's daughter Icelandic written by Noah and a co-writer Oh yeah and Lisa Long

Sorry I'm gonna give you three choices Spoilers for this episode Okay Also spoilers for the first season of paradise just sprinkled in ways that you can never possibly And apparently dying for sex It's in the title

Yeah You think that had a happy ending Sex sometimes does Sometimes Not always Everything that we just saw Over this last episode Was one of three things

Okay. It's either Noah Hawley as the writer, creator of this show, having very little interest in proper lab techniques, workplace safety. It's true. The monitoring and oversight of multi-billion dollar investments in terms of these synthetic kids or hybrid kids that are now like super soldiers but also super scientists, but also trauma survivors. just kids, you know? So it's either, he's like, don't worry about it so much, dorks. Like, it's fine.

This is cool to watch a fly spray acid in a robot's face. No, it's door one. Door two is, this is all being orchestrated by the character Kirsch. Yes. The Timothy Oliphant character

who is observing much of what we see over the entire season, really. He's second screening this whole show. Yeah, he's second screening this whole show. and is one of the most delightful creations, I will say, in the alien universe, non-zino-morph category. And it's unclear as to whether or not

he is just taking this all in as a synthetic and watching humanity and its creations at its worst, or if he is perhaps a double agent working for Utani or maybe is working on behalf of something even greater. Unclear. and then I guess door three would be no Holly thinks everything he's doing

makes total sense and it just doesn't because this was an episode that I found I think some people were like I hated watching the fifth episode because people were so dumb and I was like I guess I can make some excuses of like what kind of level of scientist decides to spend the rest of their lives on a spaceship or perhaps these are kind of like the

you know not the best and the brightest like we talked about. And like there's something kind of interesting about watching people being overwhelmed by their circumstances in this incredibly extreme environment. But this was just kind of like too loosey-goosey for my taste to the point

where I don't think that the season fell apart. I'm very engaged with like what happens. I'm so into Morrow. I'm so into Kit Kirsch. Like it's really exciting. That stuff is really fascinating to me. And there's still some really great cool filmmaking and vibes going on.

but it's, I really don't want to turn into a lifeguard being like no one would ever do that in real life. But there's just some gaps and jumps here that get made where it's like, how does Wendy know that Nibbs was saying to people that she was pregnant since Nibbs basically only tells the therapist and then gets put into a battery rechargeer, you know, like it's, there are certain things that I think were just done out of convenience or maybe out of like stitching things together.

Yeah. And then just, you know, Do only four people work at this place? Like, what's going on? Like, well, God, there's a lot to unpack there. I think that. What do you think? Which door do you want to walk through?

I think we might need to reno the whole house because I think that it's clear that Kersh is up to something and there are other cards left to be turned in the rest of the season, which I am curious about as you are. I think that the, it's no fun to sit around and like pick logical nits throughout all of this. But that's kind of where we are because increasingly the show seems determined to tell us what it's about. And the showing feels a lot more rote.

Like, well, this is happening because this has to happen to get us to that. Now, biggest caveat of all, we touched on this at other points in our conversation about the season. I'm not a horror movie guy, but I feel like I get the gist enough to understand that part of the magic trick, and it is a magic trick in a way, of getting people back to the theater again and again for horror movies is obscuring the fact

that it's a bad decision to go into the basement where the lights go off. Yes, but those people tend to not be... The best and the brightest, billion years. We know, assembled from a large language model, a computer and like indestructible like bio-skeletons. Like those people tend to be teenagers

or idiots who are like, I guess I gotta go down this hallway. I think a marginally compelling bit of water carrying for how the season has gone to me. Like I'm willing to hear out this argument is the idea that and this ties into the Laughmore Dork's reading of it

is that in some ways this is all a satire of our current technological overlords and stuff like that. And Times tech lord capitalism stuff where you can have trillions of dollars, but no common sense or no actual connection to humanity. And thus we are always going to end up as chum for something smarter or savvier or more vicious. Okay, that's fine. I think the problem that I had with this episode was the the cascading decisions just don't add up.

And so even when you have a scene that is, so use the example of Nibbs. Nibs is powered down. They're doing the old Super Nintendo trick of unplugging and plugging back in, seeing if it works. It's how I used to get Mortal Kombat to work. And it did for a time. and it costs the Sylvia's their marriage and then also one of the Sylvia's, his life, this rupture over what they're going to do about this.

Although I think that he would have got and got anyway. He seemed. Doesn't seem like there's a lot of boats off that island. Fair point. What was so bizarre about it to me was, like, we are going to do this radical thing and, sensibly in the service of protecting this child who is in this body.

And then the second she awakes, we will make sure to have someone next were going, remember all that sick shit that happened last week? That was so crazy when the eye touched your eye. And you were like, I'm pregnant. That just seems like poor personnel management. And that is a thing again and again, where it's like it is a plot point that every one of these hybrids is being monitored at all times, externally and internally.

That the... Or that even their, that their literal, like, vision and hearing is like being reflected back to the... Now, the first time we picked that knit, it was revealed that, well, Kirsch is watching, and he's allowing this to happen. It's like, okay, that's fine. But when, what's his name, tweet, tweetles, tweet bot? I think it's tweedles.

Something like that, but he changes his name. Now it doesn't matter, Isaac, but, rest in pieces. My metal king. He is wildly off script, then extremely offline for what seems to be more than enough time for someone in a multi-trillion dollar armored. I think Kirsch orchestrated that. So you think he turned off some cameras?

I don't. I don't know, but I think Kirsch instructed him to do that with being. And he has been watching that sheep for a long time and being like, this guy can follow. Yes. He's tracking people. He is doing stuff. Something weird is going to happen here. And I think he also knew, obviously, that.

the other kid, slightly. Slightly was going to make a run. Because he's clearly like, can hear everything he's saying. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you on the, Isaac was set up to die there.

Because he's like, is curly there? And he's like, no, and he's like, good, go. But there are a lot of things, like there's just like a lot of,

um, domino falling coincidences and misfortune that has to happen to these that can only happen in a completely empty building. And I think that the shows, maybe a better way to frame it is the show's interest in the largest possible metaphors and arguments, I find compelling and admirable and noteworthy. The problem with that for me in terms of how it's executed on screen is that when you have a cavalier with his feet up at the table and you tani at the other end of the table, and they have like a kind of a mid-collision

where they're tossing around billion-dollar figures, I don't have much of a dog in this fight. I don't feel any sense of humanity. I don't feel any... I'm not really compelled as to why anyone wants these murderous monsters other than the fact that they will be useful for the future alien movies.

The metaphor, which is being drummed into our head quite explicitly in the text about like, what is humanity? What is consent? Who are the real monsters? It feels a little bit... It's not uninteresting. It's not uncompelling.

It's not poorly executed. It just feels untethered, I think, from a more human story, especially because the things that I find jarring as a viewer interested in the human emotional stuff is the, like, the sense that no matter what we are going to get scenes where Cavalier is reading Peter Pan to us and there's going to be something analogous happening, or the fact that the characters are going to keep referring to each other as the boy genius and Dame Sylvia,

which feels very affected. Sure. And very much like, no, no, you will watch what I want you to watch here and not particularly organic. Yeah. I mean, I think, honestly, it's a place where without Babu Sisei and Timothy Olufant, I think I probably would be on the border of being like, I can't watch this. Yeah. Should we talk about that scene?

But they are so good and their characters are so, interesting that I almost feel like that gives me hope for like future seasons of the show. We should just have started there. The scene with them in the elevator was maybe the best scene of the season so far. Yeah.

Everything about that scene was wonderful. Also, I mean, I also love the Oliveent Alex Lothar scene. Oh, he's just like... The onion in the star. Yeah, I love those actors. It was a good scene, but the idea that is this my sister?

Is it not? Will I play? Will I get to take her home? I'm like, that feels established to me. Yeah. The thing, because that's all in the realm of the theoretical and in the past and also potentially in the future beyond the season, the thing that feels extremely present is the tension between the full machine

and the half machine who are on opposite sides, maybe, or maybe not, or maybe not. Of some sort of like end-stage capitalism world war. That's super sick. The dialogue was sick where he says, what does he say? I'll see you soon, old toy. Hell yeah. That was awesome.

Yeah. And it's hard to go from the highs of that to everything else. But look, this is the nature of contemporary TV where you were referring to it. And I think you're right to, like how much is table setting? We don't know. We don't know the health of the show. We don't know the long-term prospects of the show. We don't know where this is going.

I do find myself yearning for more of what's going on right now. Speaking of things that are going on right now with the show, as the resident, I have to get your read on the tino-morph, I want to call it, the sort of baby Groot. Oh, yeah, that Wendy is sweet singing too. Clicking and chattering too. Look, no one in this room understands how quickly kids grow up more than I do. It does seem... They grow real fast.

It seems really fast. Is that canonical that they grow up? We have now either moved way past my grasp of alien types and what they are capable of. And I didn't know they talked, you know? Like, I didn't know they talked? Yeah. What'd you think they did? Fucking slam their chompers into people's headpieces and then cocoon them and make babies out of them.

Okay. Yeah. But what do they do when they get tired of that? I don't know. It seems like they're in eggs until dipshits find them, like, all the time. Like, it never occurred to me that these things were like, like, I like, You don't think they like to like stream Netflix at the end of the long day? They're kind of off-brand Altman, like kind of really tough to find Altonin movies.

So it's, we're beyond my expertise here, you know. It's funny because, again, this is the, I find the show really fascinating also because of what it says about what we are making and what we are capable of making and what the limits of it on television. the ideas. And look, the way a lot of jobs go, like Noah is a very established Emmy Award winning proven track record creator. He doesn't need to like pitch for things or be in a bakeoff, right?

He does what he wants to do and he has a good relationship with FX that allows him to do it. But a lot of the way the industry works now is, you know, they have a, the studios or the streamers have a project or a property or an old movie or an IP or something, a book.

And they hear takes. And it is very much about the power, and the stickiness of the idea and the takes that you deliver in that initial meeting. And although the actual work is stitching together those takes and big ideas into something that flows and entertains and inspires or whatever, one, two, five years down the road, a lot of the initial enthusiasm and the green lights and all the money flowing comes from that very first burst of ideas. And we were not there for that.

We can't actually know what that was like in terms of Noah talking to the bosses at FX. and the rights holders. But his ideas are really great. You know about this kind of artificial person. There's going to be a third kind of artificial person. You've heard of Whalen Utani. There are four other corporations. The Earth is run that way.

You think there's one kind of alien. There's also the absolute sickest shit pulled from the nightmares you wish you'd never have. I'm going to put that on screen. Each one is going to be delivered like in it like a... You know, it's creepy the way lambs look at you. You know, like let's get those guys on screen. Weirdly, maybe this is just my TV brain collapsing,

but there's a moment in the fourth episode of the paper where Esmeralda tells Ned that he has goat eyes and he spends the rest of the episode with a non-eyeball alien, but with a goat's face on his screen, comparing it to his own face. Like, I don't want to underrate the stickiness and effectiveness of those big touchstone beats that are in the series. Honestly, like, you know, I can complain

about the quote unquote stupidity or like the lack of logic in certain decisions or even just like I just don't think even in the most move fast break things company only one person

would be watching the shit you know but in the first alien film it's Ash and the second alien film it's Burke

but these characters who are like A working with different instructions than everybody else and be you know essentially like um uh

undoing the work that the other characters are doing to make sure that the aliens are kept and brought back for a study and for exploitation. What if you had a show full of those people? What if everybody was essentially, you know, off in some way or had their own agenda? And it's just, that's a really good idea. There's not a ton...

I mean, even I would go as far as say is that Hermit is the least interesting character and he's probably the most like the heroes of... past alien movies. Yes, but again, you can feel the pivot and the strength of the zag in the initial pitches about what the show is going to be. You are used to, you being the audience, certain archetypes being in these stories and in

these films, I'm going to focus on children in robot bodies. Now, in practice, when it's already way too far down the road to undo it, it seems, at least as far as I think we're both concerned, that that's the weakest part of the show, which is frustrating. But it's a passion project, clearly. I will say this. Noah Holly has not traditionally shown a ton of interest in doing the same thing twice. And I do wonder whether or not, as this show moves forward, whether it takes any kind of

time jump or what, if certain characters go by the wayside. I don't know. I haven't watched the head. I'm just saying, like, think about Fargo and think about where he's like, yeah, there's connective tissue and there's maybe things from. But I'm interested in something else. Yeah. Now I want to move on.

I respect that. Can I make one small, like, fan? fantasy baseball type pitch for the show, which is it doesn't work like this. But I kind of wish that all of the boy cavalier, boy genius scenes had been outsourced to Jesse Armstrong. Like, I think there was a, I wish there was a little more mountainhead in my alien earth. Yeah. Because the character is to my, it's not working this many episodes in. And it could just be a real estate problem because there are. a lot of characters and there's a lot going on. And so far what he does is just sort of giggle about

how smart he is and let chaos unfold and think it's going to work out for him. I have not watched it. I feel fairly confident it's not going to work out for him in some pretty horrific ways. The alien timeline would suggest that's the case. Exactly. That said, I would like more to that character who is, you know, the driver of a lot of the story and that he's like created these children robot baby people who are also a trillion dollar investments in interstellar travel and is also like orchestrated the ship crashing and is being very fast and loose with the creations. I would like more to it than I just want someone smart enough to have a conversation with me and I put my feet on the table. I would like I just there's I completely agree with you.

The feet is a thing that you could be like if they just had him always be barefoot but acting like sitting like a normal person you would be like that's an interesting thing that he never wear shoes I noticed that and instead he's like by the way I don't wear shoes. You know, and it's like, it's always And everyone in the room is like, please. Ooh, yeah. Or, wow, that guy really. What an iconoclast.

Yeah, it's, look, it's fun to talk about the show and it's engaging to even the- It's got something to it. Even critiquing it. It just strikes me as an example of something that has remarkably good ideas. Mm-hmm.

And good. I can tell when I'm dragging you to, you know, like we gotta keep doing this. And I know that you're not doing that with this. So deep down, you're just a little lamb with the third eye. No, it's a second eye. The second eye, but it's the third one he got, yeah. A lot of eye talk.

Kirsh and, and Morrow are like, oh, no pain. Like, even when your eye explodes, like, that'll be more fun. Yeah. You know, once you're just, again, we can wrap up. But I, you, you wear a lot of hats literally on the podcast, but also here. at Ringer, Spotify, HQ. You're more of an office guy, you know, than I am. Being in the office?

Yeah, so just generally, what do you think of the office vibe at The Boy Genius's... At Prodigy? Prodigy retreat. Like, there are a lot of cameras. Yes. So not a lot of privacy. That said, people do seem to be able to make their own hours.

And you have access to everything, you know? Like, there's no sense that, like, I don't know if you could walk into Bill's studio next door as easily as all the characters walk into the secure lab. Yeah. I just think that there are things that they're doing on this show to just facilitate plot happening rather than be like wouldn't there just be more security?

You know? I guess the idea is that they're all preparing for an attack by Utani. From the outside. So that's why it's so empty in there. But pretty frequently I find that like it's a room with just our Arthur in it, you know?

Yeah. I mean, and so I wouldn't fire him for, for, no, exactly. It's like 50% of the staff. And for personal, just to bring my own personal, you know, experience to it, like, I only got a badge today. Yeah. To get in here. Don't get too comfortable.

I'm, I couldn't be less comfortable. This is, this is your 13 and a half of the podcast, you know, so I'm just saying. Well, break there. We'll be back. Yeah. Thank you to Kai. Thank you to John. Thank you to everybody.

We are going to come back on Monday and do task. And Emmys. It's going to be a good day for us. You are going to have to sit through a night of Napragazzi and be delighted. Is he hosting the Emmys? Yes. Sorry. I'm not following him on social media, so I didn't know that.

But I assumed you followed CBS Sunday mornings, which has been running their little takeout piece on him for... Want me to send it to you? Yes, please. Thanks to everybody. We'll talk to you guys on Monday. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items.

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