The Watch - Is ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ Dead on Arrival? Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 5.

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about the ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ trailer (3:49), the news that Ryan Coogler’s ‘The X-Files’ reboot could premiere in movie theaters (14:49), and the end of Netflix’s biannual viewership reports (18:49). Then they discuss ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 5 (33:33) and the release of ‘The Prisoner,’ the 1967 British cult classic on the Criterion Channel (51:10). Later, they react to the rumors that Rachel Cusk’s next novel is about Natalie Portman (01:03:21). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, somehow Gambit has returned. It's Andy Greenwald.

What a big show for us today. It's a rich tapestry. Life's rich tapestry. Yeah. It's rich pageant. Sure. That's REM. That's Andy Greenwald.

I'm Chris Ryan. You can hit us up at The Watch at Spotify.com. We are going to be doing a mailbag, not this week. I guess the following week, I'm trying to, like, plot out, like, because I'm going to go away for a little chunk, but we're going to have some stuff for you. We're going to do a special, I think, on Anthony Bourdain coming up. Okay. And in honor of the movie, Tony, the watch at Spotify.com, the watchpod underscore and Instagram,

ringer dash TV on YouTube where we share a little shingle with Prestige TV who've been covering Cape Fear. It's like our own little heron hall. It is. Who owns it? Joanna is the Alice Rivers, I think. And yeah, that's what we do. We cover pop culture and mostly TV on Mondays and Thursdays. I'm Chris Ryan.

Have I mentioned that? Yeah. I've been podcasting pretty much nonstop for an entire month. So it's starting to get a little gamey here. We're going to get you through it. I want to thank you, a nation thanks you, for dressing in the colors of lettuce to celebrate what we've lost as a country. Not me.

I was a Taco Bell all weekend. Just stay in line. Stay in line. They have to let you eat. Just like the Jordan Peel meme of like one trickle of sweat. Today on the show, Andy and I are going to talk about the following. The Doomsday trailer. The X-Files possibly being a movie as well as a TV show.

We're going to talk a little bit about some Netflix numbers that popped out to me. And we're also going to talk about the release of the cult classic television show, The Prisoner on the Criterion Channel. That sounds like a healthy lineup. It is. I look forward to talking about it with you. Perhaps the most important thing that's happened to this podcast since Donald Trump's re-election. Apparently Rachel Cusk is writing a novel about Natalie Portman.

Yours? Okay. For years. For years. I start with shit like that. And you're like, why don't we save that for the special segment at the end? I can't even say that that could feasibly go into After Dark. That would be like a crime.

This is all I want to talk about. And you know what? I've always said. Yeah. When it comes to the two Rachel's. I'm a Kushner. That's just how it is. There are two tribes.

There's also a Miss Rachel, I believe. Yes. And she's on the Netflix top 10. God bless her. But you're a cuss guy. And I really need your comments on this. You know, I have dabbled on both sides of the aisle. Yeah, but I feel like you're not,

you don't have a house at Creation League, if you know what I'm saying. No, I got, I did do a timeshare there, and I got a host because that book was. That book is good. No, it's not. That book's cool. It's not good.

By the way, the best part about this podcast, just I feel like in real time, there's breaking news. Judge granted a temporary restraining order to pause the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. But let's talk about Rachel Cusk instead. Well, no, but like, what do you want me to say to that? Nothing. Because like, we live, we're just, I'm on the front foot. This is great.

Do you, what judge? Judge Roy Bean? Who did that? What judge? Who appointed this judge? Men of the people. Okay. So let's do a little back.

story here. I feel like Kaya's going to appreciate this as well. Are we leading with this? Because I was going to say you want to do Doomsday, then we can do do Rachel Cusk. Doomsday for Natalie Portman, aka Jane Foster, formerly Thor. How about that? There we go. Okay, okay. Let's do doomsday, but I do want to talk about the other thing. They dropped the Doomsday trailer

this morning. And I will say they have got some fucking cheek putting this out the Monday after Odyssey. I'm trying to think of what this would be like. sure this would almost be like you have like the crazy amazing weekend

with your stepdad who just buys you all the stuff for your birthday and then like alcoholic dad shows up on Monday and is like hey I got a bobblehead at the Dodgers game that I snuck into like it is really struggle meal hours over there at Disney no offense guys but yeah I don't think you can keep selling us the same shit look

the concern level has gone up considerably. Yeah. I'm going to be seeing this movie. I look forward to talking about all the buildup and all the nonsense. But I saw, thanks to our friend Mina Kimes, that the Ice Bucket Challenge is back, I would like to suggest a new challenge. Marvel put real people in an actual room challenge.

The fact that after all of these years, and after all of this money, and after all of this hype, we're back in the purple halls of nowhere, dog. It's just negative space that's super, super dark. And you can tell, like, as there has been reporting to sort of at least suggest this, these guys don't know what they're saying.

They don't know what scene this is. They don't know when the scene is happening and what two movies stretch that they're in this, like, indefinite servitude in Atlanta to shoot. Like, they have no idea. And it's funny because it does, no one will be more happy than I would be if, like,

secretly the bones of this movie were strong and good. We love... The stuff that this movie is going to be about is, like, a generationally good comic run. The Jonathan Hickman stuff. Yes. Okay. But here's my feeling watching this trailer.

Because I have been relatively, I think, bullish on this movie. This weekend, I was with my children. We were walking in a lovely neighborhood in the northeast of Los Angeles. And across the street, we saw some branding for a place that caught my eye. It was like bright, eye-catching, had a little cartoon iconography. And I was like, oh, is that a new, is that a chain? Is that something I'm supposed to know?

Is that something the kids might like? And I got closer and it looked like a Japanese eatery of some kind. And you know me. I love the foods of the Far East. And I was like, this seems exciting. And I got closer and had like a cute name and the image of like a cat eating something that looked like sashimi. And I was like, what could be more interesting? than this. You have my attention. You have me. Then I got closer and I saw that it seemed to be

an entire store dedicated to selling slices of raw fish inside of cooked tofu skin. Okay. Now, who among us doesn't love Yuba? You know I do. I feel like that was, but my thing, hold on, let me finish. You set that up so that you could show that you knew what you was. Do you think anyone who's listened to this podcast for 10 years thought I didn't know the name of Tofu Skin. Go ahead. Come on. Go ahead.

My point was, I don't think people want this as much as the store's optimism thinks that it does. Yes. And that is how I felt being like carried along the hype wins for a few months. And then the reality of Gambit versus Shang Chi in a dark room. So I would have said. I don't know if that's what I want. Originally, with all due respect to all the characters featured in this, in this trailer,

my initial reaction was like, oh, they're doing, this is the trailer for like, like the newer characters, the, you, your, what was the Florence P. movie? That was.

Thunderbolts. Thunderbolts. Did you ever see Thunderbolts? Yes. Yeah. Wasn't that like your favorite movie of the year? I thought it was the most emotionally engaged.

It was the most, yeah, it was the truest emotional movie in 2020. Didn't you send like a weird emo text to where I had real feelings and tears watching that? I did not say tears. That was about people

working through their trauma. in pain, my favorite subject. That sounds like me. That does sound like me. I didn't say cheers. I thought it was fine. But you see a bunch of people like Namor and Shuri and Antman and Yelena and all these people. And you're like, okay.

This is actually when you kind of think about what's happened to this cinematic universe. Like these are the guys I sort of expected. And there's a brief Cyclops, which I assume is Marsden. Right. It's Marsden. And get Gambit. You get these glimpses of people. But I was like, oh, I bet they're going to save the homies for, like, the next trailer, right?

Like, they have to have to have, like, Thor and Hulk and all the guys and the next, whatever the... Go on. And they had to give away the, like, Steve's back moment. They had to give away to see one, because they had nothing. Right. I mean, Thor is the star of the trailer because he's the only remaining star of the movies that were popular. Right. And the corny...

The corneous thing is that it's not just that your man Steve's back. It's that they just redid the beat that made everyone scream on YouTube. Which is the hammer. He's worthy. Yeah. They just did it again. Yeah. Now it has been, has it been 10 years?

No. How long is that? Well, seven calendar years, but COVID, so really it's only been about three or four years. Okay. By my math. Okay. I just, Ben Bradley and all the president's men voice. They haven't got it.

Like, whatever, it's a really good story. It's a really hard story to tell the Secret Wars thing that they're probably trying to do here. I wonder whether or not I'm reacting to, like, maybe the thing they're going to show me is Doom. Maybe, maybe Doom will save this whole thing, ironically. Because they showed you the thing. What? The thing. Doom?

No, Ben Grimm, the thing. Yes, they show me the thing. Sorry, that's a little Marvel wordplay. Maybe Doom is what's going to sell. this whole project. Maybe. Did you like his accent? No.

Did you? I mean, I don't know. Do you like his accent? I didn't know if you had to be. Me watching the studio shows on the World Cup. Yeah. Sure, I like that one, less that one. Yeah.

Look, I mean, they have, they're in an interesting bind where they have, they have not been shy about telling us that like one of the planks of this movie is the thunder. One of the planks of this movie is the 2000s Fox X-Men, and one of the planks of this movie is the Wakandans and the Fantastic Four. And they're like, that's the big tent that we envision for this party. And to your point, I don't know if it's enough. Now, they've also done the same thing.

They've tried to be cute in the same way they were with Infinity War and Endgame, where they're like, Spider-Man's not in this one, but it'll be in that one. And I think that they have tried to suggest that this will tee up true, crazy. with everyone back in the next one. But so far, they can't give away. You said Hulk and the gang. Like, I think the story is that Hulk, Spider-Man, these characters are not. Deadpool.

I imagine Deadpool will be in this movie. And I imagine that this true sign of desperation will be signaling that in the next four or six weeks. Or like an excessive amount of Deadpool voiceover, you know? Or the Deadpool cut of this trailer. Yeah. Although, I don't mean like, I don't know where Brian Reynolds stands.

right now. They're putting that like that weird May Day movie with him and Kenneth Brenna. They're just like, do you know what they should do? Dumping that on Apple TV? Do you know what the real power move would be? They put Deadpool in the movie and you know, it's multiversal, whatever. And Deadpool pulls off his mask at one point and it's Justin Baldoni. That would be a curveball. That would be, wouldn't that be so sick? Would you be so engaged with that content? You would love that. Make me really excited to see it. And then Lady Deadpool would be his, Mrs. Baldoni. I don't know her name. Last comment, because I think this is something we should be tracking between now and December when this movie is released.

You have been bold. You have been brave. You have put the Russo Brothers on Fraud Watch years ago. Yes. Ever since they ruined my beloved novel Cherry that I liked so much when I was like these guys. Again, they don't have it. So they came back. They sure did.

And looks like they spent a lot of money in some. dark sound stages in London. Yeah. Look, who among us wouldn't want to spend time doing that? But, okay. It's interesting to think that this will become more

of a like, expiring your contract that these two movies that are supposed to save the MCU will become more of a like, how do we get off the doomsday thing? Oh, that's so crushing.

So that you can get to X-Men because that's what this is all about. It's like, if X-Men, if they cast X-Men right and they do it right, that will give this whole thing another 10, 15 years of oxygen. But if they don't, I don't know.

I don't know how much longer Disney's in this weird spot. I'm not predicting that they're going to ramp down the MCU and put it into hibernation for 10 years or something. But they've got to start making things that people actually love again. And they have not done that in a long time. Well, that's not just Marvel. That's their cartoons.

That's everything. Yeah. The Moana thing. is an abomination. Yeah. That was ridiculous. But Star Wars is in the mud, Moana. Yeah.

You know, like these live action adaptations of cartoons, like, Josh tomorrow, come on, man. Give me a call. I'll help you out. Do you, I believe, well, the rumor is that at Comic Con, the X-Men cast will be announced. So I got hoodwinked by a tweet this weekend where I didn't retweet it. Hoodwinked by a tweet. My Life and Media. But it was like breaking down who's like who in the X-Men, like, here's the rumored casting.

and it was like Cooper Hoffman is Cyclops. Sadie Sink is Gene Gray and keeps going. And then it's like Erica Kirk is Emma Frost. I was like, damn. And I was like, wait. You leaned in though. It's definitely a way to engage. Right?

Yeah. J.D. Vance's new baby as somebody. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of smoke around some of the names that I imagine. they are not inaccurate, at least in terms of people having been engaged in like, my guy Charles Melton, apparently, joining the cast.

Odessa as Zion as Beast. Oh. Odessa, Zion as rogue. Oh, I'd seen Kaylee Spani as rogue. Interesting. Different algorithms. Was that also the Turning Point USA cast list that you seem to be? Okay.

It's fine, you know. I just wanted to mention that X-Files the rebooted X-Files, which is coming from Ryan Coogler, it got announced over like the last couple of days that he's shooting the pilot on 65-millimeter film and that it's going to be a two-hour pilot that might hit theaters.

And I wanted to ask you about whether or not, in your experiences, you know, obviously working as a writer and talking to people, do people seriously think through and think about the theatrical slash TV hybrid model because this is something

that is legendary not really worked right? Like people like a certain story because of the way it's told in a certain medium there's a real like logic to X-Files shows. Now they're movies

I happen to really like the X-Files movies. Yeah. But they, I wouldn't say that they gave X-Files like a whole new birth you know, like of life. I think it's a good question. No one thinks or talks about that

in terms of like actually a hybrid strategy. Yeah, because every once in a while somebody comes along and they're like, I'm going to do Dark Tower and it's going to be five seasons and two movies. That doesn't work. But what does work, I think, and I'm sure

they've talked about it, this would be a good topic for the big picture too, is there has been a blurring of lines and maybe, I don't mean of standards, but of like putting things in theaters as a way of getting enthusiasm, of building excitement, of

signifying something important or major works and has worked increasingly, I think, as the movie theater to the degree that it is surviving, is surviving as a place for true unbridled hype and communal experience. So Stranger Things finale, I think, premiered in theaters, or at least there was a theater opportunity experience that weekend. I think you were away when I talked about this, but a Netflix, formerly YouTube, then Netflix show that my daughters loved called The Amazing Digital Circus premiered its final episode in theaters a week before it went on Netflix. Is it like 25 million, right?

Yes. And some of those millions were mine. No, some of those dollars that added up to the millions are mine. I am not a Stubbs member, so I had to pay full boat. And that works. So I think in this case, which is a reboot of a property with real cultural legs and memory from a filmmaker, one of the few filmmakers who can open movies. Sure.

I think it's incredibly smart way to get people watching the TV. show, especially if, as you said, they're filming it anyway, and it's going to look amazing on people's nice televisions. Why not? Yeah, I have no, I mean, I want to see Hamish Patel and Daniel Deadweiler. It's such a good cast. Find aliens. Like, like, that can happen in any way. Part of the sort of thrill of watching and even going back to watch X-Files is the variance from episode to episode because they were still operating in that 20-per-year, 20-per-season model. And there are some duds. There are some funny ones. There are some good monsters of the week.

There are some great serialized stories. And, you know, I don't know whether this will be like an eight episode kind of prestigey feel or whether they'll try to recapture some of that original energy. I would have to imagine if Kugler is like spending time with it. It's because he likes the totality of X-Files and not just like Fox Malter's sister got disappeared, you know? She did. She did.

You know who else's sister disappeared was John Sugar from the television show Sugar. Honestly, the tie-in is right there. It's obvious. I just got chills. Yeah. Sugar files. If the X-Fi, no, but the thing is, the new X-Files get the case, and we're like, oh, my God, Detective John Sugar is going to be outered as an alien by the X-Files, but actually the case is, who the fuck Greenlit this? Where he's an alien.

And so the investigation is coming for, is a Hollywood story. I like that. Yeah, good. Good. Good. X-Files, great. Netflix, for you. releases its last biannual

what we watched report. Moment of silence for that. Explain this to me, it's last. They had been releasing biannual reports about what they're, for the sake of transparency, some of their data on what shows were being watched at what capacity, where, all that stuff.

And I think that the idea is that that was supposed to be a nod to not only transparency to customers but to creators and also to investors in Netflix. It's like check out the incredible number we had on stranger things. And particularly if it's things like the ones you just mentioned, which are properties they own. Yes. And now they've announced that they're going to go to an annual model. I think the reason this

jumped out when I read about it in deadline was because I know that Trump had sort of been like, why are we doing quarterly financial reports anymore, which seems like that would benefit somebody like Trump, but not. Well, isn't he, isn't he too busy? selling early market moving tweets to trade social? So I, you know, I'm not saying that Netflix is trying to manipulate the market. And as much as I know, I think this this became of note because we're in this weird moment with Netflix where for our purposes, we have not gone to it as much, you know, like there's, we cover.

Yes. Like, there are still entertaining content on the service and they're obviously putting themselves a little bit more in the center of the live television experience. by doing all these wrestling and comedy and they've got NFL games, they have NBA games. They had the home run derby. Yeah, they had the home run derby.

So they're in the mix now and that is a bigger deal to them than Ripley, right? Yeah, sure. But I found it very interesting that, you know, not only some of the highlights over the last four years, which deadline accumulated some stats from like basically the era that they were doing biannual reporting,

and there are some interesting things like among the top 20 shows over the last four years Eric Banna's Forest Ranger show Untamed which Nary a person I think other than me watched Say more about that Well I like mountains and I like National Parks I like Eric Banna Is it a scripted series or does he just go to mountains?

Honestly it probably would have been better if it was the latter but it is a scripted series and while I enjoyed it it's a real like this should have been a three episode show or a two-hour movie, but instead now we have four or five episodes that are about your complicated relationship with your daughter. Now, hold on.

Now I'm interested. I think also given the fact that we kind of dropped off Squid Game after season one, we did. And I could never really tell how popular it was. It is insanely popular. And is the, I believe, the most recent... There's two seasons of Squid Game

in the top three shows of the last four years. years. Adolescence is number two. And it speaks to like what a phenomenon that was. And I would be shocked knowing that if they didn't figure out a way, if not to like bring back that specific character group to do something anthology around it. I believe it's happening. Yeah.

I mean, it just is like you, this was lightning in a bottle. There were rumors that our friend of our pod, dear friend Kate Winslet, was circling a role in a second season of adolescence. Really? I don't know if I don't know that's based on anything. I mean, I believe I got that from turning point, as I say, as well. But, um, so those are some of the, you know, adolescence, the gentleman did very well over the last four years. Uh, basically all of Stranger Things is in the top 20 for the last four years.

From this year and from January to June, this is their top 10. Okay. His and hers. Which, by the way, I'm shocked by. Me too. Not, you know, not because we're not stakeholders in Bernthal Holdings Limited. I'm, I'm legitimately, like, I had no idea. idea that this was essentially a blockbuster.

It's above Bridgeton, season four. It was not well received, I would say, by critically, but clearly audience. That's the test of Thompson, John Bernthal, thriller. Bridgerton, I will find you, which I think is one of the Harlan Coben shows. Stranger Things Season 5, the last season, which I guess technically came out in 25, right? I would hope so, because otherwise, Stranger Things Season 5, getting half the numbers of his and hers would be catastrophic. Well, I don't know if it's half the numbers, or is it like a decimal point below? I'm just reading...

Or is it that most people were so excited about the show they watched it the minute it came out? Yes, and I also like Netflix's way of calculating its popularity could have to do more with... I mean, they say it had 56 million, I think, views. Sure. I think there's another 50 million who watched it the day it came out. And season five also was broken down.

It's such like a long stretch out. Runaway, I don't know what that is. Teach you a lesson. I don't know what that. that is. One piece. You know what that is. Well played. Man on Fire, which to my great regret, we did not discuss, was number eight. Miss Rachel, number nine, and the night agent season three, number 10.

Okay. Do you look at that and divine any great learnings? Not particularly. I mean, I think that everything that we recognize on here, I think tracks to us as what works on Netflix. And certainly, one of the reasons we know that is because they make a lot of shows that feel like these shows that fit into certain boxes, things that will work better on their service. I think the bigger conversation here is more about what you were saying in terms of how they are evolving their service and the future that they see for it. The A side to this B side story about how they're going to change their reporting is

they missed their earnings again and their stock tumbled considerably this week. It was their stock dropped 9.5%. It's the second straight miss that they've had, and the financial reporting of which I'm responsible for none, and I don't fully understand, said that it was mostly to do with a reassessment of what the company's strengths and plans are after the failed Warner Brothers bid,

which I think perplexed investors, and sort of mixed results for what they care about in terms of the expansion. That's why the other story this week that was bubbling was people were asking Netflix, when are you going to launch a fast service? When are you going to launch an ad-supported service? They have some ad tiers, and now they've talked about having some always-on channels on Netflix.

Right. So there's two ways to look at it. One way to look at it is Netflix is a juggernaut and can experiment with almost anything, and it is still kind of de facto streaming TV for most households, and that's an advantage that the other companies can never reach, or adults they can never reach. The other version of looking at it is they're trying anything. They are trying anything to try to get some purchased,

like get their boots on the ground of something sustainable because the go, go, go, we will just keep spending to show growth to get investor confidence. That inevitably hits some sort of a ceiling. And again, this is not me concerned trolling Netflix, but it is interesting in terms of its identity. And the way we always approach it from what we do here is what is the scripted television. Like what are their calling cards?

What is their business in that? And I wonder if internally what the ratio of, what's the Venn diagram of Netflix's value and growth areas when you're actually in the boardrooms? Is it, how do we expand into live programming and sports to become the de facto hub? Is it, do we do a commercial tier? How loud are the voices saying, no, no, more stranger things original shows on Broadway? Literally, though, like in terms of like merch and K-pop Demon Hunters and becoming a brand in that sense. I don't know.

But it's an interesting moment to see a company that is absolutely dominant struggling. And I'm putting that in quotes. It is not struggling. But in terms of its identity. It's cash positive now. It's just one of those. If I remember the most recent thing I read, it was like Netflix is actually making money.

It's just that it's stock price. And it's like perception to the town and to Wall Street is a little bit rusty right now. And when you return to opacity, when you get less transparent, let's say, with your data, which is what they're doing by going from twice a year to once a year, that will make people skittish.

I think my big learning from this is there is now a Netflix genre and that it's not quite CBS but bingeable and it's not quite like Apple but a little bit faster and dirtier

and you know I there's something about this to create the this sort of like there's a lot of grabby thrillers yeah there's a lot of genre stuff but genre stuff that isn't like I don't find particularly like what I go to for genre

Like the Coben industry. Yeah, or maybe even Night Agent, which I think like I watched a little bit of the first season and thought it was fine. And that was, but the idea that it's a juggernaut show is kind of surprising to me. But it's interesting because you and I spend so much time

talking about these HBO shows and talking about these Apple shows and, you know, other streamers. And this is really, obviously, like dwarfs a lot of what we talk about in terms of how many people are watching this, but I don't really find many shows there to talk about. And order to really like interrogate.

And maybe that's my failing as a commentator, you know. But there maybe is like a transition here where you're seeing the end of the Peter Freedlander era who was there when they were putting up Ripley and maybe some of their international purchases were more interesting. Yeah. And he was there for a very long time. Now he's at Amazon. And I don't think they really care about whether or not they win best drama at the Emmys. I mean, like I think adolescence is really nice for them. I think Baby Rangers really nice for them.

Baby Ranger has done historically well for them over the last four or five years. But I don't really see a ton of stuff on here where they're like, which we could be competing with White Lotus this year. The other thing that they've abandoned for the most part is third seasons. And increasingly, like two seasons is starting to seem like a lot. And that is because they are so cutthroat about the data. And they're like, the numbers go down. They're abandoning those for the shows that we might watch.

They're not abandoning it for like Ransom Canyon and Virgin River. No, but those shows don't get. seven years? There's a couple that do. Well, like Lincoln Lawyer, I think, just got cut down after five, and that's a huge show for them. Yeah, but they have, like,

a kind of weird, like, middle-aged CW kind of show where it's like a guy who has a general store. You know what the CW stands for? Conventional Wisdom. Yeah. They have, like, those shows where it's like,

she's a divorced mom, and he bridles horses. First of all, Minka Kelly deserves paychecks. So I think that's awesome. Sure. Two, inside baseball on this, years ago, when Netflix was getting into scripted, I remember there would be interviews with Tina Faye, and they'd be like, oh, Tina, you've only made shows for NBC,

and now you're making this case, it was Kimmy Schmidt. Yeah. And they were like, what are you learning, you know, what insights you're getting? And she's like, they tell us nothing. We know nothing about who's watching our show or what they think about it. We just deliver it, and we don't have to do 21 minutes anymore. We can go longer. I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore.

But I recently was having a conversation with the head of a studio who works with Netflix. And his point was they remain incredibly opaque about algorithmic data, about who, what, when. The thing that drives every decision they make is next, next, next. That is their note. And you can tell by the shows that they make is, will you end on a beat so,

undeniable that people will start watching the next thing. The next one. And it's interesting to, I would put this out to our audience too. If you're watching a show on a different service, maybe even one that drops shows weekly, but you start to feel that cadence, look in the trades and see who is bidding on it. Because there are examples out there of shows that were expressly developed for Netflix or for that model that have ended up on other services. On Apple or whatever, yeah.

That don't do it. Yeah. And I wonder if that changes your interaction. And on the flip side of that, I will say Tina Faye, her most recent creation for Netflix is the four seasons. Oddly has lots of, like, grabby kind of like, are they going to break up moments where, like, most of the show is like people making kind of like affectionate mid-fony jokes about Thanksgiving dinner. And then at the end, it's like, but whose baby is this? You know, like. Did you watch the second season?

I did. Yeah. We don't talk about this stuff. Because there's like a kind of television watching experience that I have with my wife where we watch half hour comedies as a kind of a come down like a bedtime routine. Yeah. Like it's like a. It was weird. In retrospect, it was weird when you invited me over that time. Like that sort of like let's settle. Just right right in the middle. Guys? Yeah. What's on tonight? I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I invite. That's what the invites about really. Truly. I have watched into season two of four seasons. But I like you, I'm like, I don't really have anything insightful to say.

You're different than me in that I don't think that you want to watch television to feel completely brain dead. Like I think you're always like, is this good? And I'm like, I don't really care. You know, like there is a kind of television that I will watch that is essentially like watching pain dry. Yeah. And sometimes I just need to turn it off, man. It's on a lot. The brain.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to think if I, uh, No, not real. I mean, I think that the equivalent for that for me is, like, ending the night with, like, my younger daughter is really, really obsessed with, like, treasure hunting the last 10 years of The Simpsons. Okay. We've talked about this. So she'll be like, there's a funny one in episode in season 34. I'm like that with SVU.

Yeah. Are you? Yeah. I'm like, there's a cult in this one. Let's go. That's nice, though. I feel like that there's some servicey elements we could be exploiting in this. At SVU.

How to watch SVU and not feel like it. A deplorable person. Let's talk about how's the dragon. I was very curious to know how you would feel. I don't even... Did we talk about the last one together? Or was I gone? I think I referred to it in passing.

You were gone and then I was... Talk to Joe about it. Yes. And I believe I used the words fucking interminable. How did you feel about this one? Even longer. Yeah. It is a absolute struggle for me

and I don't get a lot of pleasure out of it. However, I do have three points of light because I do like to be positive. Is there anything about this episode that you would like to highlight or shout out? Because the feeling that I dislike most that the show services mostly now is this like inexorable churn towards plot points. And I feel the weight of characters interacting just to get to the next plot point with very little room for brightness or light or even a feeling of. obviously nothing about the show is improvved, but any kind of spark as opposed to churning towards

the gloom and doom that we are headed towards. And I find that just, that is a television experience that I do not enjoy. I wouldn't get your hopes up about this being an upbeat show. So, I mean, like, obviously there's going to be probably a degree to which the storytelling and the tone of the show mirrors what its eventual conclusion is. I will say that the reason why I've been

a little bit more forgiving or into these last couple of episodes than you is that I am far more interested than this in this particular set of characters that have been kind of introduced over the maybe this season especially. I wish they were the original lineup.

I wish this had been three seasons with these people rather than three episodes as they've kind of broken out of the Targary and Valerian camp and started to bring in Starks and different people coming to petition in Reneera and like, I'm like, that guy's interesting.

This person's interesting. I kind of now wish that this entire show had been a little bit more outside the walls of King's Landing. And I can see what they're trying to do. I think the Reneira, like, in some ways, I think what they're doing with Reneer is more sure-handed than what they did with Deneres. I don't even know if this is a controversial statement.

But in terms of depicting how someone starts to become undone. Absolutely. And, you know, that is, in a positive note, because she has reclaimed the throne and has had not just a number of episodes, but that one episode in particular that was the real season standout. Yes. There's room to maneuver a performance towards something and not indicate. You know, I think one of the nice things about, my God, Emma Darcy performance is that it's not telegraphing. It is quite present. almost to the point of like you kind of feel like Damon being like you're still hung up on that. Well she's being suffocated by like

the fact that every conversation she has opens up a trapdoor of another problem. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, I think that's a very smart observation about something that this show does, is able to take more interest in and deliver on.

Like Ormond and Darren, the Stark Wolves, Kristen Cole and Gwain specifically being like guerrilla army. Even like random scenes where it's like Jane of Aaron, you know, Jane Aaron of the Vale or whatever that her name is. Like, she's like kind of got something. But I think it would be cool. There's probably not enough plot to have done what's the veil been doing the entire time this show is going on.

Well, exactly in what you said. There's not enough textual plot. Like a creative enterprise that was differently enabled and empowered could come up with a good story. Sure. you know, to set there in the backdrop of something, but that's not the show. Well, it's an adaptation. I mean, what are you going to do, right?

Well, there's some things you could do. Yeah. But that is not the remit of the show. And I'm not going to sit here for the third straight year. Sunshine and Graham crackers. What's going on? What did you love? I said, because let me do, let me do just one more like kidney punch before we get started.

Just that I'm watching the show week to week, and there are moments where I'm like, man, they're hanging some of these actors out to, dry. And like the dude who plays Amund. And like when he got his script, you know, he's sitting in his trailer and he's putting

on his wig or they're brushing out his long locks. I think it's a wig. And it's like, we don't know. I mean, I would imagine it's a wig. It's probably a wig. And really damage your hair bleaching it like that. And people do things for their art. Yeah, Chris. You know? And he's like, okay, what am I going to do today? And it's just

like, Amon wakes up half nude screaming about dragons in hell in a haunted bed. He's like, yeah, I can see that. He's like, all right, go. And he's like, no, mother! Like, can we get a little more on the no? It's like, dude.

He's even Targaryen. He's not going to be managing a fantasy premier league team. Like, I don't know what you want him to be doing. It's not what I wanted to be doing. It's just like, first of all, we are fucking back in the haunted house again with the trees. I am not a heron hall guy. It's so boring. But second, it's just like.

I like Grace Rankin and Alice and she's interesting. here on my list. Sorry, Gailer Rankin. But it's just like there are incredible performers elevating almost every scene. And I think that if you just look at the bones of it, some of these scenes are pretty thankless in terms of the opportunities for actors to do what they do best and to enliven something. So I wanted to shout out three performers on this show, who I look forward to seeing every time they're on the screen. And one, I have to highlight because it is a zero-to-hero arc, which is our guy, Fabian

Frankel, that's Kristen Cole. I'm not, you know, you know I'm, if nothing else, I'm accountable. And how much of this is Detective Grasso? 50%. Yeah. The key for House of the Dragon characters is for them to appear on episodes of task.

The key for House the Dragon characters is for me to have seen them be good in other things and then look forward to seeing if they're able to just like flash like a signs of life, like come rescue me kind of thing. Kristen Cole is a thankless part. felt for the first two years. And because of that, I don't think we thought much of the actor playing him, which was unfair, as it turns out. Speak for yourself. You were, you were a little bit with me until you heard him talk like he was from like an upper broomall. I thought he was

cool. You thought he was cool? I thought he was interesting and cool, yeah. What was, what was the coolest thing about Sir Kristen Cole? Oh, wait. Just like, just riff a little bit. Pretty loyal. loyal guy. He does work above his duties, you know what I mean? He's willing to... He goes the extra 10%. He does.

This season, taking him out of the claustrophobic court and making him be a warrior in a Tim O'Brien novel, basically, works for him. I'm absolutely watching him through the eyes of seeing what he was capable of doing as another

deeply misguided soldier in task. Sure. But I thought this episode in particular, like when his arc is make, kill your horse, help your friends with his leeches, and then convince everyone to go on a suicide run, that's something an actor can work with.

Sure. And I thought that he has like his, what I mistook for like lack of charisma in this episode, you realize is kind of a steady slow burn. And I thought he's great. I enjoy, and I enjoy the scenes with Quain because we love Freddie Fox. Absolutely. They have the best, I think among the best chemistry, like those two and then Laris and Agon.

Yeah, I agree. And it is a constant reminder. And again, I don't want to sit here as I do for weeks and years and seasons of these shows being like, oh, we know better because we see something. You're obviously, like, I have, just for the crew, I have stipulated that we do not need to do this. And so, like, I think you're interested in the project and how they go about doing it. I've decided to, truly, I know I don't always sound like it, but I'm trying to look for the helpers. Look to the helpers. And like, when you see good, interesting actors with chemistry paired off or so much of the season devoted to them, that is not a fluke. I think that the people making the show are empowered to do that because they are also interested in seeing the people who can deliver can do. So I really like those scenes.

Big Tom Glincarney guy who plays Agon. Like, he is just, even with only one ear and one kind of stumpy earhole, one of the more charismatic actors on the show. Have had season tickets since Rogue Heroes. Yeah, and I've talked about this. I saw him in all my sons on the West End, and he had a very, very brief appearance. He is the smallest part.

And when he comes on, he just a lefty reliever coming in to throw him gas. Just West End big-time to me. That's okay. Well, I love theater. And you like action shows, but that's, we make it work. What's your take on the Agon storyline? It's hard to talk about because I've read ahead. So I like it.

I like that they are pairing him with another person who is now deformed and is kind of like, this is the way the world sees you, and this is the way you can still get ahead. Each one of these plot lines, each one of these planks of the show, at any given moment, does not have enough going on for a full episode. It's true. And the way that they've chosen to do it, which is cross-cutting across, you know, these, say, five storylines that they've got going,

I think it's probably the way they can get to eight episodes of television and eight and, you know, eight hours and 40 minutes or nine hours, however long the runtime winds up being. But to your point about, who are you saying that, oh, maybe it was Amund, where you're just like, what am I doing today? It's like they don't really do much different from episode to episode. I mean, for as much as I love the Renera episode two episodes ago, she is pretty much in the same exact space.

It was a different way of looking at that. And I like it. It's okay, you know, but there is not a, there is neither a propulsion because it's such a breakneck show. Right. Nor is there a concept of what it needs to be to be episodic to keep. to keep this thing kind of feeling light. And I am committed to this and I like it and I kind of just want to see how

they execute some of the stuff that I think is coming or some of the stuff I know is coming. But it's really weird. It's a very specific kind of writing that I don't know if it would work if there wasn't this sort of like carrot being dangled of like there's some big battles coming. And I do think my feelings about,

I mean the assignment of the show was always going to be challenging because it was the inverse of Game of Thrones. And the challenge of the show is, what are you going to do when the dragons aren't the main characters of an episode? Yeah. And I think that... I prefer it, though. I prefer that generally, but I think the show has struggled to answer that question successfully

week to week over the seasons. So you would rather have people be like, oh, Syrax, my beautiful beast, you know, like... Should you go ahead? I would pay to watch you do that longer. No, I'm not arguing four more dragons. I'm saying that House the Dragon Season 3, despite being four... functionally better than season two in many, many ways and much more professionalized and capable of higher highs and honestly a higher floor as well, I think, week to week.

I think that it is suffering post Night of the Seven Kingdoms because... Oh, this is like dropping Dooms Day after the Odyssey. It's exactly, thank you. It's just more that like, Night of the Seven Kingdoms almost casually introduced us to different archetypes, different arcs, and different emotions that we heretofore did not know were possible in Westrose. And House of the Dragon is still saddled with storylines like, I will teach the child to stab an innocent man in the heart.

That will show him the way of the world. And I feel like that is a lesson that we have all learned repeatedly over the last 15 years on television and otherwise. And so, but that is what the show is. I mean, that is the world that they're existing in. And I think it's trying to iterate, honestly. Yeah. And in good faith.

The last performance you mentioned is Gail Rankin, who is a really good actor from Perry Mason and from Glow, and she's playing Alice, the Witch Queen of Harenhall. And again, this might be like prior fandom. I just think she's a cool performer. But she has a little bit of twinkle in her eye. Like she does have some wit when all these people keep coming to attack her.

And she's lying to them that suggests some life or some plan. When the last group of raiders come, I think she kind of lets herself get taken captive to like entice Amon to regain his spirit. Sometimes I'll be like, oh, I don't know what to say about this. And then you jump in. And I'm like, that's right. Because I like to save my friend. It's like that human, was it the human giant sketch about like the most successful moving company in New York where like to move the piano, they put a child underneath it.

And then the mother shows up and goes, my child. And it's the piano because there's no strength greater than a child in parents. Yeah. That's what's going on here. Just real quick, that's a Lannister that shows up with Agon. Yes. And that's the Lannister who was on the boat. Yeah, it's Thailand or Jason.

I can't remember which one one got their head cut off, so he's definitively dead. We are getting into a dangerous period with this show where if they don't show you the body, it probably means the guy's still alive, and they've done that twice this season. Corliss and once with this guy. Yeah.

Yeah. You want habeas corpus. I'm just saying this is why the Stannis freaks from Game of Thrones still are among us where they're just like, we never saw it, brother. So this is actually, this came up this came up the other week.

We were texting this. The Stannis Melisandra stuff is so interesting in retrospect because we, and I say we like the audience of Game of Thrones, spent so much time with those characters. And in the new parliament,

of television, which is really about return on investment, it's like, well, what was that for? What was the point? And it's such an interesting and more contemporary framing that just invalidates 40, 50 years of television. Sure. Now, you could make the case, I don't actually know this, but I think that the Stannis story

was already ended in the books when they were telling it on the screen. So people were like, oh, I can't wait to see how... We know that he's not a real contender. The film version of what I've been, yes. But we also still enjoy the time spent on it. Yeah, just like Red Wedding and a bunch of stuff. And Stephen Delane was really good in that part. But like the Melisandra thing was still questionable.

And then she shows up later. Because there's like the woman that never popped up in the show that was supposed to be maybe Katelyn Stark. Oh, Lady Stoneheart? Yeah. That's not Melisandra. Can I say, though, like in retrospect, my favorite thing of our, we had a real rich Thrones adventure. We were on television. We were talking about it.

And still, every time Jason or Mallory would be like, well, you know, they're not doing Lady Stoneheart. I'd be like, can you just talk me through that again? And they're like, remember. It's not Lady Stoneheart level, but Nettles is supposed to be, you know, is in fire and blood. Do you say, you know? I do not. Yes. Sir.

Who is Nettles? Nettles is basically being folded into Raina's storyline, I believe. But who is? It's just another character who's like a dragon rider. Greg Nettles? Yeah. Is he a pitcher? Craig.

Craig. Craig. he was a utility infielder. Yeah. Like a kind of Jose Okendo type. I think we both closed our computers. No way of knowing. But, no, but like the Lady Stoneheart thing

where I'd be like, oh my God, I'm still shaken up by the Red Wedding. Like, that was one of the most intense things ever on television. It was so surprising. And they're like, well, you know, Caitlin comes back. I'm like, maybe it's good to do an adaptation

and cherry pick a little bit. But anyway, you get what I'm saying in terms of our conversation about House of the Dragon, And because it is a history, quote unquote, because it is being made now, there isn't room for these little narrative. I don't even call them flights of fancy, but it's like little exploratory runs.

You know, what do they say when watching the World Cup? They're like, oh, a lovely little questioning run on the left line. I think that's why the Agonne and Lara storyline is so pleasant to watch because it has so many Thrones Echoes, because it feels like Brianne on the road with Jamie or whatever. But it also feels, again, I could be very much mistaken about this. And please, you won't spoil it. I know.

But, like, it does not feel connected in a way that it feels like it is moving towards something unexpected or new. Yeah. That's probably not the case. But I do just generally, that's probably one of the causes of my lingering allergy to the show is that I just, you just don't feel that spark of, like, people discovering something as writers or performers or whatever. It's more claustrophobic.

So we got three more. Yeah. Yeah. which is, it feels like it's, it's really a rich vein for us. Do you want to talk about the prisoner? Yeah, set this, I, I love it. I love it when a 4 p.m. text comes with some good, good ideas. Yeah.

So the prisoner is a show from 1967 and 1968 from England that has been a little bit of like a cult classic in the TV world for decades. It's popped up here and there on physical media. there's some like a UK DVD, there's a Blu-ray, there was a box set, I think Arrow might have done it. It's just one of those shows that if we were a proper country, we would probably be able to create a Criterion Channel for television. And maybe that's a project you and I can do on some late summer dead week is like what would we put in like our first 10 or 15 or 20 shows?

And it's not always the best, but it, you know, these criteria does these physical media releases for films and obviously gives the films like a kind of unified aesthetic in terms of their graphic design and now has become this kind of almost like this label or brand that people are like I blind buy the thing on criterion because it means film excellence it means like true exploration of like what's great about the cinematic arts and we really have that for television and a lot of that is because television has largely been a function of selling advertising over the years and there's all these complicated rights issues and it's like a studio made it but sold it to a network that then offloaded it to this other network or streamer.

And this is why we wait around decades for homicide to show up on streaming or my so-called life still isn't on streaming, right? It's music rights too. Right. It's music rates. So the show The Prisoner is a little bit different than, say, homicide or my so-called-life. It's more of a, I would say, acquired taste is also a cult classic, you know.

And it is hugely influential. It's a 17-episode run, I believe, of two seasons, two series. It was created by Patrick. One series. One series. So 17 episodes one series. Patrick McGuin, who's the creator. It's also the star.

And he worked with David Markstein, who I believe, directed a lot of it. And it is essentially a sci-fi spy show. It's the easiest way I can describe it. And has been credited for having a huge influence on X-Files, on Twin Peaks, on the Truman show, on Inception, and on the Matrix. I would throw another one in there after watching it last night Which is? The good place.

Yeah. Like intensely so. Intensely so. And I think it's like just a really cool thing for people to check out. It was very funny last night I was watching a couple of episodes. And I had initially sort of been like, do you, to my wife, I was like, do you want to watch this show, the prisoner with me? And she was like, what's it about? And I told her.

And she was like, no, no thanks. She was like, why don't you invite Andy over to blind down with that one? She heard it in the other room. and she was like, is this old timey? And I was like, no, it's old. Yeah. And she was like, I thought it was new and they were doing old timey.

And I was like, no, I mean, it's just the late 60s. Yeah, man. Is that old timey now, I guess? Yeah. But the cutting style, the art direction, the music, it's very much of its time. Yes. But it's also, I mean, you can see Nolan editing patterns

in the prison. so it stands to reason that Nolan has twice gotten pretty close to remaking it as a film, as has Ridley Scott. So this is a really interesting show. The entire series is up on the Criterion Channel, if you have it. But I just thought we could talk a little bit about this as like a touchstone in modern television. It's also worth noting the show was remade in 2009 for AMC. Ian McKellen, Jim Caviezel.

Was not particularly well regarded. Certainly not in the shadow of its predecessor. Right. I was really thrilled to do this because as someone who grew up reading TV Guide for the articles, this was a reference that dominated. Yeah. I don't think it's possible to overstate how influential, not even the show itself, because it was hard to watch for a number of decades, but how influential the idea of the show was, that it was a hallmark of any even half-assed article name-checking when the Times TV has been bold or interesting. And so when Twin Peaks came out at the end of the 80s and early 90s and I was obsessed with it, the prisoner was back in the conversation.

Yeah, because Mark Frost was like, there's no Twin Peaks without the prisoner, basically. But what's interesting, and I think that I'd seen clips maybe or it sought something out or maybe it was on PBS, but I definitely have never been able to sit down and watch it like I just did yesterday. And kudos to Criterion because it is on Criterion. It looks amazing. It looks fantastic. So that's really exciting, too, to see it in the way that even better probably than it's ever been seen before. But it was very interesting to see something that is so deeply influential to artistically minded and aesthetically minded art and television in particular.

But it is not a one-to-one in any sense. There is nothing, because the Twin Peaks thing is, it's David Lynch on television. But then the idea that there was even a small safe space on television for something that didn't feel right, you know, that felt off, that felt confusing, that didn't hold your hand. owe that to the prisoner, I think, above, above anything else. And the setup for the show is very, very straightforward. In a brilliant pre-title sequence. Which they replay.

Which is wordless. A spy resigns from MI6 or whatever and drives home to his place in Westminster. In a very normal car. In a very spy car. And he goes into his flat and... He's packing, right? ...is gassed and falls asleep.

and when he wakes up, he is in a seaside village, place unknown, side of the iron curtain unknown, side of reality unknown. And in this village, everything is accounted for. It's a very good place like Andy mentioned. Like, you know, you go to the labor exchange and you get a job and you go do these things and there's like a kind of political class and there is senior citizens are taken care of there. This little cafe and beaches. Everybody's wearing these sort of brightly colored, like kind of very, very.

geometric patterned capes and cloaks and frocks and frocks but you know obviously this rough and tumble spy is like where am I what's going on who's in charge here how do I get out of here

and I'll just say in the first episode you are introduced to the idea that not only is there constant surveillance and a lot of subterfuge going on in this village but a blobby white balloon floats over the village and is capable of sucking people into it and killing them.

That was the part that engaged my nine-year-old the most. Oh, yeah. The horror balloon. Yeah. And grown men running from balloons. Yes. I think she liked that. But, you know, there's parts of it that are cut and feel like, I don't know,

like late 60s mod culture films, you know? The other thing that I would say that you should watch, just for reference, is Austin Powers. Sure. Because there's something of that, too. Very, very, very, very influence, I think. probably by this. Patrick McGoad's performance, especially in the first one too, where he just like just yells at everyone. Yeah. And so the other interesting thing about it is, you know, it is

intentionally surreal and the surreality is both aesthetic and cultural, like for the like Mad Carnaby Street vibes, but also very much about like surveillance and who do you work for and who sent you and what is truth and what do I owe and things that happen in the first few episodes that probably don't register as much to us in like a post Google Translate Society. Sure. But like someone speaks French and then someone responds in German. And it's like where do your allegiances lie? Who is responsible for this?

Which is much more Cold War coded. But the other thing that I found really interesting is there is no, this is when it gets into like James Joyce territory. Did you know that there is no agreed upon order to watch this series? So the second episode, the one that aired second, the one that Criterion calls episode. So two. It's called the Chimes of Big Ben was the fifth produced episode.

And instantly when you watch it, you are once again discomfited and, like, unclear about what's going on for reasons that are intentional. Like, that's the vibe of the show. And one of the conceits of the show is that our main character,

number six, is being bossed around and surveilled by the person who is nominally in charge, number two. Yeah. There is no number one. Number two just says, like, you could make this all go away

if you told me why you resigned. But in all 17 episodes, number two is played by a different guest star. Yes. So number two is always different. So you can be forgiven if you're like a little bit confused. But then you keep watching episode two

and Patrick McGuwen's number six has a completely different personality that he did in the first episode. He's much funnier and he's much more charming and he's much more willing to sort of play along, honestly more like a spy. And it makes it a more pleasant watch. But it's also like,

Is this the fifth episode of the second? What is time? And is that on purpose? So there's a rabbit hole inside the rabbit hole. Yeah. And I think it's a different era of making television where they maybe, maybe they got a note that was like, this guy needs to be nicer.

You know, like this guy needs to be funny. And because of that, and not just a note, it's of an era when BBC or whoever put it, I think it was BBC broadcast it. Because I don't think there were any other channels. Yeah. Was like, we're going to put this one on next. Sure.

Because that's what we're going to do. Yeah. But it is, here's the thing that I really liked the most about it. And I wish that there, I wish that you could take this piece and inject it into contemporary television. I have no idea. I have not done the deep research. I have not watched the whole series. I have no idea of Patrick McGowan and his collaborators launched the series knowing, quote unquote, the answers.

If they had a plan, you know, just like the vocabulary that sprung up around Lost. What I do know is that there is such a swinging sense of fun and discovery and gamesmanship in a playful way, not like in an aggressive, I'm going to frustrate Reddit way, that is so welcome. Yeah. And one of the reasons I think that exists is because of the way that it's shot and scored, because contemporary television is so dependent on, and the same way movies are, I think, as well, of, like, having the way that you film it, cut it, and most importantly, score it, indicate. heavy importance. Sure. Like this is ominous now. Well, there's also like a real emphasis

in television, I think, on coverage and making sure, like, you got that shot, that shot, that shot, and that way also if they want to meddle with it or if there's a supervising producer or whatever, they can go in and do their cut of the show. Whereas there, especially in this first episode,

like, I can't imagine there was that much coverage because everything is this like high angled shot through. Of a Welsh village where they shot the, You know what I mean? So it's just very, it's a very disorienting and pleasantly disorienting show. Apologies to our friends in England. It was not BBC. It was ITV. Oh, I didn't know they were around in the late 60s. A little bit independent. Yeah. But do you know what I mean, though, the sense that like one of the things that contemporary shows do, and there's a reason why you do it is like you want to give people enough rope to keep climbing. So you want them to know that they have a plan, that there's something to be revealed. But there's a playfulness. This does actually segue from our House the Dragon conversation, that there is a playfulness possible.

in discovery, that for all the things the show does, and I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's like linear or like a good hang all the time, but there is a sense of playfulness that is kind of infectious if you can get into it. You don't need to be doing your homework necessarily. You just kind of have to go with it,

and that's not a bad feeling to have with TV. It is not so common anymore. Before we get out of here. Can we do it? Can we talk about it? So let's talk about Rachel Cuscan. I have been waiting for an hour of this nonsense. Did you know that we were going to talk about this today? No, but I'm thrilled.

This is a cool story anyway. So great. Okay, so there is a new Rachel Cusk book. What's it called? Portrait of M. Life of M. Life of M. Can we set up Rachel Cusk a little bit? Yeah, I think we better.

Should we? Rachel Cusk is a very culty British novelist. Kai, have you read these books? Do we talk about this? I have not. No. Okay. I feel like we've asked you this before.

I apologize. She's kind of known. Have you read any Rachel Cushner? I love Rachel Cushner. that's why she's still here. You know what? That's why she sticks around is because she and I know

Mars room for life. Kai and Sarah are real big. No, Marksroom is too dark for me. I had to... Kaya and Sarah are a big outline trilogy because they just don't want to talk about it. She has sort of risen to a certain kind of prominence

for her incredibly chilly reported auto fiction books. Yes. Her books are a vibe. Her books are an experience. This trilogy that starts with outline basically follow her just like going to literary conferences and just sort of talking to people who like Greek men who take her out on their boats to tell them about their failed sons

you know and she's just like then she talked about her foot a shit and her ex-husband is and you're like more more so I know I'm selling it but they are so they're such a vibe like there's an entire book that I read about how she and her then husband took their kids out of school to like live in Italy for a year. And then they go to like a bunch of like, they go to look at frescoes and abbeys. And she's like, everything sucks. It's great. Can't sell it enough.

Where have I heard that kind of attitude before? I can't imagine why. But what's incredible then is this is this, this was reported this week is that her, she has a, she has many fans, you know, including Natalie Portman, including Natalie Portman, who part of her Natalie Portman's public facing brand is like lifting up novelists. Sure. And she likes books. And who among us?

you, Jezelnik, all the greats do it. And the implication here is that Natalie Portman was like, let's hang out or like write about me? Yeah, I can't really get. So the reason why this is a little bit murky is because apparently there are galleys of this book, which is a, according to one article on a site called unheard and then aggregated by the usual trades is an unflattering portrait of Natalie Portman. Who could have guessed?

Yeah. And there are galleys of this book and there is an embargo on the reviews, I suppose. So it's like a very strange, like, social media discourse about it where people are like, I see like this site decided to break the embargo, but I will save my opinions for when like the real time comes. Yes. But I'm unclear as to whether Natalie Portman basically was like,

yes, you can embed with me or if this is just about their, on again, off again, relationship. Because they both live in Paris now. And they both have this sort of mutual appreciation for each other or did until Rachel Cusk wrote what is apparently an unflattering novel about her. But I got to say something, man. Say it.

Shout out to Natalie Portman. Okay. Because this is why they don't fucking talk to us anymore. This is why stars are like, sure, I'll make a pizza, but you can't spend more than 12 minutes with me, you know? Because they don't want to be observed. They don't want their weird shit. broadcast out into the world.

So they want to get asked what their letterbox four favorites are and then they keep it moving. And when you see any life in them and everybody's just like, wow, an iguana. You know? Like this is like how they get treated. So for her to be like,

hmm, where can we go here with this relationship? Why don't I have this like absolutely scalpel sharp mean writer hang out with me and then write a novel about me is fucking cool. Like, it may not work out well for her, but I admire her doing this. What's incredible is the analogy...

And it's very French that she did this. It's very French. The analogy that I was thinking is like, if I was a big fan of, like, in cooking, like, Wusthof Knives, I'm like, I love cooking with these knives.

I really enjoy them. It's a good product that does what it's supposed to do and they're a part of my life every day. That step from that to being like, I wonder what it would be like to cut myself with these knives. Yeah.

Is a bridge too far. Well, it would also just be like anything that we like and you watch... I like watching Lioness. I don't want anything that happened to that show to happen to me. I know. You know? I will say, apropos of the early, the jokes you were making, like, when you texted me this, my brain auto-corrected Kushner.

I thought it was Rachel Kushner. And then I was shocked because Rachel Kushner, from all of her public. I mean, her books are quite intellectual and can be tough. But like, every interview, she's just like,

Kim Gordon and I went to get tacos in Echo Park and it was sick. I feel like she would be a really cool hang. Yeah. Richard Kushner's welcome write a book about me. That would be dope. I think it would be great. Do you think which mode would she use,

the women in prison mode or the, like, spy woman going to investigate caves in Bordeaux mode? Like, which are you? Can't possibly. comment at this time. This is just an exciting development.

We'll be tracking it as maybe more official reviews come out. I am really hoping it doesn't turn out that it's like this was misinterpreted and it's not actually about Natalie Portman, whatever. It's about, you know, Monica Balucci and, you know, we just didn't know. Of all the writers on earth, there is no writer alive that I would trust more to turn directly to camera and say, no, it's about that bitch than Rachel Cusk. Like, that is the one you want. Also, let me just say, kudos to us,

because I do get a sense sometimes that there is, like, within our family of podcasts. Like, we do tend to cover some similar things. Like, I imagine the Doomsday trailer will filter its way through Midnight Boys and Big Pick and, you know. House of Our everybody, yeah. This is where you come for the discourse about Rachel Cusk, about Yale Doctor O. Julia and Amanda may disagree. They are well-read literary figures, but I feel like. I just feel like we are carving out a very specific lane

for ourselves to enjoy and sometimes Kaya where we can really comment on this. I've not seen you this activated and animated in such a long time. This is the most interesting story of the dragon. This is the most interesting story of the week. Thank you to Kaya, Kai and Sarah for producing us today. We'll be back on Thursday. We've got to get to the agency.

It's really just more about finishing it. I'm sorry. No, me too. I did finish matches to watch. You know, it just came up. I wanted to be done for today, but I think we did a good show either way. I think we did a good show and also we did a good World Cup.

So I think it's okay. See you guys on Thursday.