The Watch - Is ‘House of the Dragon’ HBO’s New Flagship Show? Plus, Tegan and Sara on Their New Show ‘High School’

Episode Date: October 18, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the penultimate episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ (1:00), and whether it is now HBO’s most popular television show (22:48). Then, Andy is joined by pop duo Tegan and Sara to talk about their new TV show ‘High School’ and their new album ‘Crybaby’ (50:21). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Tegan and Sara Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This season on gamblers, I'm going to take you from the drag strips of Florida, where if you want to race, you have to put up $10,000. To the Lynx in Vegas, where you'll have to bet $40,000 a hole. All the way to the Casino de Monte Carlo in Monaco, where a game of badgammon can earn you 50,000 euros. From the Ringer podcast network, listen to Gamblers Season 2 on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you. Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support

that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan, I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, the only greens and blacks he cares about are the Eagles alternate jerseys. It's Andy Greenwald. Wow, thank you for that. What up, hon?

You're back, babe. Yeah, back from Philadelphia. In case anybody listening to this pop culture, but largely TV-focused podcast wants to know what I was watching this weekend. About 41 hours of professional sports. You have to preface this by saying you just returned from the city of champions. We haven't won anything yet. Listen, small victories count as big victories.

So yeah, your boy was in Philly starting about Friday afternoon when the Phillies really started storming the National League playoff scene. It was just kind of like the city of brotherly love truly lived up to its name. The vibes were immaculate in Philadelphia this weekend. And the vibes were,

fairly lubricated, to be completely honest. I was trying to imagine, Andy, what do you think, you got, you and I as we enter the twilight years here. Excuse me. Well, me. I'll buy, because I used to smoke, so I think it's twilight for me. What do you

think our regimen, what would our it our itinerary have been? Have we been 26-year-olds? Oh, geez. And it was like, yo, the Phillies earn the National League Divisional Series against the Braves. The Eagles play the Cowboys on Sunday. The Sixers play the Celtics

on Tuesday. There's a Premier League fan fest, which is why I was in Philadelphia. I was there for that to see a couple of the ringer podcasters like Ian Wright and Ben Foster down in my hometown. But what would we like... You injected them with hoagies and pizzeria. Oh yeah, we had cheese

steaks, went to Cleaver's, we went to Bidia. Like, we went to, we just had the best time. I honestly am scared to think about it. Or is it. Betia. I'm sorry. I don't know how I don't know who we would have done. You know, honestly, I still was sort of gaming it out that way

because I was like, at least Sunday morning is still a holy time. Like, there was a long break. And I was really thinking about our compatriots, like an opportunity to sober up. And, of course, to catch up on prestige television. But, you know, like, there was at least a natural break there. Because I think, like, you could feel this from far away.

Like, there was something, I don't know whether there was, like, residual but tasticotch batter from tasty cakes eaten decades ago, but something was tingling. You know what I mean? Like, I could just feel that there was something going on. And it was just release positivity. You were texting me like you were peaking on ecstasy. You were just like, I looked outside today and the world was beautiful, crying emoji.

Okay, that's true. And then I would just text back Jonathan Gammon images to you. In my defense, I used that holy church time yesterday to run 10 miles. And I do think I reached that zone where I was either the happiest I've ever been or so oxygen deprived that I was about to die. Like, I looked in my phone roll, Chris, and I found a photo of a wrapper of some sort of keto bar that I guess I purchased and ate from a gas station. Are you serious? I don't remember doing that.

Was that for your expenses? No, I guess maybe I wanted to just remember the brand because I guess I enjoyed it. I almost don't remember anything about it. You don't have any funky diet stuff, do you? Like, you don't do you ever tried to do keto or actants, do you? No, it's more like when you go to the Arco convenience. shop, sweating, having just run 10 miles listening to Benny the Butcher records, you know, you're not like, excuse me, good sir, what here is plant-based? You know what I mean? I was like,

anything that said almond on it, I bought. I see. I see. I did my best. Andy, today we're going to talk about House of the Dragon, which many people may have been under the impression that we were leaving this behind and that I would only be talking about that show on Talk of the Thrones, which is what I do on Sunday nights with Mallory and Joanna. Shout out to Mallory and the Grey Lady. How about that? I got to say, if you only spoke about it with Mallory because Mallory was in the New York Times this weekend,

respect, what could be better? I think that makes sense. That was awesome. But we're going to talk about House of the Drag. We're going to talk about some of the other shows that HBO has in the Hopper because HBO put out one of their sort of patented coming soon on HBO montages that tease not only stuff that's coming in the next couple of weeks,

like the second season of White Lotus, but also things that we're really excited about coming next year, The Last of Us, Full Circle, the Steven Soderberg Limited Series, and of course, season four of succession. So we're going to talk a little bit about expectations going to that, and we'll see if we can hit some other stuff. But then we also have Andy today an interview that you conducted with Tegan and Sarah. Yeah, coming off of our conversation on, well, Thursday, Friday of last week, about the new television show based on their memoir, High School, on Amazon's freebie. The freebie power vows, yeah.

They were great to come back on and talk about both their role in the series and their new album Cry Baby, which comes out this Friday. That was a great talk. Always fun to have them on the podcast. I don't think they've been on in like seven years. Are there any spoilers for that album that we need to warn listeners about? Will they give away who wins the Dance of Dragons in that album? How it ends?

Yeah, no, I think we kept pretty clear of that. I think you'll be okay. So do you want to talk about Dragons first? Do you want to talk about these other shows first? I think we should talk about Dragon because, Dragon is the property that allows all this other stuff to exist, right? I mean, it's not a coincidence that they're trying to piggyback the next year of content off of what needs to be their flagship show, which, by the way, even that is such an interesting

flip of how we used to talk about this. I remember writing pieces for Granland 10 years ago being like, hey, like, I know HBO doesn't want to admit it in their branding, in their marketing, in the way the people who work there or even talk about their workplace. but Game of Thrones is your flagship show. It doesn't matter how lavish a party you throw for Boardwalk Empire Season 4. Like, this is your show.

And it took them four or five seasons of Game of Thrones to admit. Now that seems like a million years ago, right? That like the old New York entrenched version of HBO before the AT&T merger, before the Discovery stuff. Lombardo Core. Yeah, Lombardo and PLEPLAB.

They were like, we make the highest quality stuff, and I guess we'll dabble with these dragons. I would love to live in a world where vinyl was the HBO's flagship show. I mean, I think you would have to be inhaling drugs at the same rate of Bobby Canavali in that show to ever believe that was possible. But yeah, that was what the plan was. And well, look where we are now. I was having this conversation with, I was having a conversation with Mallory and Sean just on text and talking about Andor recently. And we were trying to get a gauge of like,

what the reaction to the show is, both like in terms of, obviously, I think it's critically adored, but whether or not it was being, um, I'm curious about this, whether it was popular or not. And whether the sense was that it was like, it was this art house Star Wars? Like, what are we talking about in terms of like it's, it's reception? And I wonder whether or not it was served, well, we can have the debate forever about whether it should be coming out in three episode batches, if that's in fact how the stories are going to be told. I think it would have been a little bit more satisfying for people if that had been in the case. But, whatever, whether or not it was served poorly by coming out at all during rings of power

and House of the Dragon, because when you get out of the sort of bubble that we're in, about where we're watching like tons and tons of television relative to the usual person, and if you're just like a, someone who has like the bandwidth to watch one or two dramas a week and maybe a sitcom or something like that, or one or two dramas a week and maybe a couple of reality shows, Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones are going to be taking up a lot of brain space. And I'm curious to see, both for HBO, but for other streamers going forward, whether, first of all, if Dragon and Rings are going to be on the same production cycle and be released at similar times, and whether or not there are any lessons to be learned, like, A, would have

been good to have some counter programming during this time and have, you know, obviously we've talked about the patient, we've talked about reservation dogs which ran for, some of this run, but there wasn't like a White Lotus level show that was also running. And B, whether you get something like Andor, which costs $200 million, and I think is one of the best shows of the year, but might not be getting the level of shine that it would if it was on at any other time during the year when there wasn't so much fantasy brain being dedicated to dragons and elves. I think it's a great question.

I think even before we get into the specifics of this penultimate episode of Dragons first season, you can't really have these conversations in a vacuum. I mean, you have to think about what these shows, not just what they're costing, but what they're intended to do for the services and who's paying for them and why, right? And so I don't presume to know the actual financials that Bob Chaypec has in his office.

But, and obviously, look, you'd say it at the top, like, I love Andor, love Tony Gilroy. That's my dog in this fight. But I also think in terms of, you can't just think about these shows, shows in terms of the individual achievements or ratings-based successes, you have to think about in terms of the overall health of the franchises. Because Disney buying Star Wars like they did 10 years ago was never just about those next three movies. It was about the next 30 years and the return

on investment there. And I, we aren't, everyone knows how we feel about this and what we want from these entertainments. But I continue to believe that a project like Andor, will be so critically valuable to Disney and to Star Wars far beyond its 24-episode run. It is hanging a shingle in front of the Moss-Eisly canteena saying, we are open for real creative business, and we're interested in telling interesting stories. And when you have a pod within a larger company like Lucasfilm is, that can be massive. I mean, we joke about how, like, oh, well, then they see how this, you know, the response rates in China. or India and then the whole thing falls apart.

That's probably true for the stuff on Chepex desk. But in terms of what Kathy Kennedy and her team are passionate about and what they are doing, there aren't that many people that work there. There aren't that many people making these decisions. And this has got to be enormously energizing for them. I mean, I have it on unofficial authority. I know that she's very, very, very pleased with the show and proud of it. How could you not be?

And that makes you confident, you know, in a different way about what choices you're making. So I'm not saying that Eben Moss-Baccarac and Grito's Blaster are going to be in episode 10, 11, and 12 or whatever, but the decision-making that made this show will no doubt affect the projects that come from them in the future. There's a couple of things. One is Andor is going to have both library value. Like, I do think that once the 12 and then eventually the 24 episodes of Andor are available, they're going to live on for years past when, say, with no disrespect intended to the people who worked on it, Obi-Wan, will be drawing in new viewers. You know, like, I don't think that Obi-Wan wound up being this kind of thing that people would want to revisit or that people would feverishly recommend to other people, whereas and or I think for the rest of the year, I'll tell anybody who listens about how they need to check this out.

I agree. And let's just move through them quickly then. So, Rings, which I know you finished, and I have not yet. But I think, but I do think that by most, even, you know, purely observer standpoint, perspective, it's been a success. I think it's also worth remembering that for as much attention is paid to their $200 million price tag or however much they paid $200. God, they've just been shelling out money to require this property, to develop it, to make it, et cetera, et cetera. This is Amazon.

It doesn't matter. I mean, I wish that, you know, they were using that to maybe like bring water to the West Coast of America, but they're not. So it's fine. It's fine. And I know people are saying, didn't this guy just say last week he didn't drink water for 30 years? Well, I don't want to go back to that. Water's great. It's also a lot more dry out here.

That's right. And the sun hits you different, right? You discussed that last month. You tan differently, Chris. Do you know what I had over the weekend? A black and tan? A Hank's black cherry soda. Ooh, how was that?

It was great. But I was like, that's what Philadelphia's drink for water. That's what's got my arm. Do I not bleed? Black cherry. So the money piece doesn't really matter for Amazon. I think it achieved every other goal that it had in that people were interested in it talking about it. I think that it has done very well around the world, which is as important to Amazon's prime video strategy as it is doing well as it is doing well here.

And it could continue to grow and improve or open up doors, right? Like that's what they're doing with that. It's also considering where the franchise is. It was beloved and then essentially dormant other than just the adaptation of all that it ever was was the books and then the adaptation of it. and now they're trying to not just resurrect it, but, you know, make it something new, make it open-ended. So by that measure, it seems like it was a success.

Now, people know how I feel about Has the Dragon, and I'm glad to be coming back talking about it because I think that even within this shows troubled, or at least, you know, not flawless first season, this was a low point for all of the reasons is that I've discussed before, we can discuss briefly again. But broadly within the confines of this conversation, I think it was a great, great, great exemplar of what's wrong with this

and how despite its short-term rating success, despite the success of the, you know, the conversation around the franchise, which keeps podcasts like this one going, except last week. Not for long. Not for long, brother. And that it's the launching pad for the next year. worth of television, I think this has caused damage to their most valuable franchise. So, uh, long term.

Why don't we do? It is the anti-Andor in that regard. You tell me, tell me how that's the case. Well, broadly speaking, I think that the goodwill towards House of the Dragon, such as it existed, was not in any way, oh, let's write the wrongs of that last season of Game of Thrones. I don't think that was really in the conversation. I think it was a large, large, large number of television viewers in America and around the world liked Game of Thrones. They liked watching it.

They like talking about it. They liked being brought into something that felt dense and complicated. They like, consuming content about it. Yeah. And they were like, great, I like this. Yeah. And this series has been so limited, so claustrophobic. so unwilling to be more than just a hagiography

of George R. Martin's own historical ramblings that I think it's basically hung a you're not welcome sign and I'm used yes I'll use eye statements I mean I do know I no longer feel welcome in the red keep I don't feel like because you wear shoes or I was like oh okay so that's how they do it in that family but so I do think that this what that does Game of Thrones was always going to be a difficult thing to iterate on because it was a massively mainstream popular show

that also had just the densest amount of backstory to it but it didn't feel that way because it brought people in slowly and at least for the first few seasons gave equal weight to human concerns. This show isn't that. This show is an appendix to the first show. Yeah. Which can bind the hardcore fans, to you more closely than ever, but I think that it signals something that it'd be very hard

to unsignal, which is, this is for those guys, this is not for us, and there's not much here to be interested in. And it's not just me saying this because I'm negative about it, or I wish anyone involved in the show ill. And this is also me not trying to, like, presume too much about the small sample size of people that I've talked to. But I have there are people in my life who I've talked to who work every Sunday loved Game of Thrones, and that was the extent of it. And that's not like a mirror that you have in your car that you have conversations with, and they're just like, I agree, Andy. I do have that mirror, but it's not in my car.

That comes from Bull Star. They just, they have that. Sometimes, at least they gave something. You know, it's not really very giving car company. No, that's when I have the two windows open in the Zoom, and I ask Kai to record just me talking to the empty window. That's what I do then. No, but people who have said, this is boring.

Not even, they're not saying the same things that I've been saying that I might say again in a moment we talk about nine. There's like, this isn't for me. This isn't giving me the same enjoyment on Sunday nights that it did before. And I think that that's a concern for the franchise. I think that maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is just once again me misplacing my own personal opinions for industry gospel, which I ought to be careful about.

But I do think that in terms of they want to grow this, right? They want to grow this property. And I feel like this show has shrunk it. I feel like I'm at a small plates restaurant. and you were just like, I kind of course it out as I see fit. And now I've got a table full of Brussels sprouts and I've got to figure out what to do with everything here. So let me see.

There's fish sauce on the Brussels sprouts. They're caramelized. Is that okay? Have you dine with us before? Yeah. Do you have an allergy? No. Where should we start here?

Can I start with one comment while you get your thoughts together? I just want to say, I am very, I'd like to be very mindful and respectful to people who love the show and love that episode who then tuned into this podcast to hear me because as someone who loves watching the Philadelphia Eagles go undefeated against the Cowboys, tuning first thing into Bill this morning to hear his podcast, and I have to hear Sal give the Cowboys fan perspective on the Eagles win, I get it. I just want to say I feel your pain and I'm empathetic about it. Yeah, I think that, you know what's been really fascinating is that we have documented the slow dissolving of the monoculture. And in some cases, in some ways, in some ways,

ways I think that that's been a good thing. And in some ways, I think that's been a tough thing for us to wrap our arms around because it's like, well, there used to be these central shows. And beyond there being these central shows, I think that there was also a broad consensus about what was good and what was bad. And I do feel like we are entering a phase where more and more when I sort of peruse social media or talk with people, you know, for as much as you're like, these friends of mine are texting me and being like House of the Dragons boring, which I don't doubt that these are real interactions. You don't doubt these people exist. Yeah, that it's not like, you know how like Trump would call and pretend to be somebody else and be like, you need to say

that Donald J. Trump is a man of great manhood. Not just, do you see your guy, Senator Mike Lee from Utah. Do you see what he did? What did he do? The local newspaper on Salt Lake City was like, Dear Lee and McMullen campaigns, could your candidate write like an op-ed saying why that he should get the vote? And so Evan McMullen was like, I am Evan McMullen, here is what I believe for Utah,

and here is why I would like to be your senator. And Mike Lee sent in his bio written in the third person. Mike Lee is like a, is a beautiful man and a great patriot. So there's been this collapsing of consensus I've noticed. I have plenty of people in my life who sometimes, whether it's like,

I texted them or I see them like, there were people in Philly. Like when I was two who were just like, so what's up with Dragon? Like you think that they're going to like, like, Reneer is going to become king? Like I know it makes it sound like I'm just like bumping into like sanitation workers who are asking me about Reneer but I have gotten. Who's Trump like now, by the way? Everybody's talking about this.

Many people have grown men with tears in their eyes come up to me saying, House of the Dragon is the best HBO shows since True Detective season one. No, but I think that there has been this. collapsing of consensus. There used to be a sort of sense that you would watch Breaking Bad, you would watch Bad Men, you would watch early homeland and you would just be like, you know what, this is obviously like great television. And maybe I am or am not ready for this level of despair or anxiety or pathos that I'm seeing at any given time, but I acknowledge that it's like really great television. And now more and more, I feel like people can watch the same show

and one person can just be like, what shit, that was terrible? And somebody might be like, I thought that was great. And I feel like I'm almost losing my North Star and it might have something to do with somewhat podcasting about this twice a week. And like when I talk with Mallory and Joanne, I'm like, I kind of like this. Olivia Cook was just running around doing shit, doing some stuff. It was kind of like a fun episode of Succession where everything's going wrong, except it was real succession. And then there was some kinky stuff, you know?

And then I talked to you and I'm like, wow, is this show terrible? I actually don't know what I am the last undecided voter. This is great. This is great. Well, I think that wasn't there a bad movie called Swingfell? vote about that? Yeah, yeah. I think we're having kind of three conversations here.

Well, maybe that's also that collapsing of consensus is because more and more things are being derived from deeply beloved and or studied pieces of IP that, like, you know, like I think one of the things that is restricted House of the Dragon is it can only do so much to be different than what it could be because it's literally history. So if you kill one of these characters that hadn't been killed in the history of Game of Thrones, it throws off everything that happens going forward. Yeah, as you know, Chris, I'm a big meta guy. I still believe in Mark's rebound.

I think he's got one more big swing in him. And so I'm always on Facebook. And if you ever accidentally click on the news banner, first of all, please be careful and don't do that. But if you do, you will be inundated with headlines that are like, did you know Max von Siddows, the one-eyed Raven, is the great-grandchild? of this House of the Dragon character? I'm like, the man just died recently. You know, please, let him rest.

But that's one way to look at this. It is absolutely insane to me. And I don't get that at all. But okay, that's one way you can look at it. And we touched on this a little bit last week, too. The nature of fandom now causes the first reaction to new television shows or movies to be a defensive crouch.

To be, I love. this when it was just for me. So I'm going to approach this hoping for the best and defending it from the worst. And look, I get that. That's how we take care of people in our family. You know what I mean? Like that is a natural, protective human response. And if you love something, then you want to see the best in it. And that's okay. But it is absolutely stifling creatively and critically to cover the stuff this way. And so, you know, so this is also playing out in something like She-Hulk, which ended its season, have not seen it. I actually want to watch this show in six months.

I would like to watch it away from the discourse when nothing exists anymore. Recipe for success for this pod. Yeah, no. By the way, Miyazaki check in on Thursday. Is that what we're doing it? Marvel six months later. Thanks for your service.

But we'll run the Marvel stuff after my nearly hour-long interviews with beloved musicians from the last 20 years. So, but the she's, The whole thing is like, you know, it's a culture war volleyball, right? Like it's Marvel Salvo against toxic fandom and Tatiana Maslani can't wait to get the call to be in Daredevil Born Again. I'm like, okay, but was episode seven good?

I mean, I know we're past that. But so at this moment, we're having kind of a three-part conversation. I think that there's a conversation to be had about the general health of the Thronesverse as we near the end of the first season of HBO's verse. attempt to recreate that success and to sustain the brand. I think there's the conversation about this House of the Dragon's success over the course of a season as a television show. And then more specifically, we could just talk about this episode. Sure. And it won't surprise listeners that I am three thumbs down emojis. I believe the thumbs down emoji is not on the list of 10 emojis

that give away you're an old. That list has been haunting my dreams. And I think thumbs up emoji is So thumbs down emoji is okay. Well, to your first point about the overall health of the Thrones verse, this is the gift that Andor gave me is eternal optimism. And now how many Tony Gilroy's are out there? I don't know. How many people are out there that have given the opportunity to do what Tony Gilroy did where it's just like make a show for adults,

make a show that feels real, make a show that has stakes, but make a show that's about people and all those things. If you told me in the middle of the book of Boba Fett that your favorite show of the year would arguably be a Star Wars show, I would not have believed you. So I will go down with the dragon here and say, I think that these shows are going to be

as good as they let them be and as good as they can make them. Is industry canonically in the Star Wars verse? Is that what you meant? Like, is where does it fall in between? I said one of. Industry and or, we own the city, Barry, these are my faves from the year.

And the Phillies Improbable Playoff Run. Yeah, and Reese Hoskin fucking body slamming that bat. Okay, that's top five. You know I was at Pizzeria Bedia, which we were just, was one of the joys of my life is bringing English people to American restaurants because it's like when the Matrix plug gets pulled out. They're like, wait, I've been living in a simulation of food my whole life. Is this what pizza tastes like? So I was at this pizzeria, and you could just see people all over the restaurant showing each other the video of Reese Hoskins, because it happened while we were at the restaurant. And it was just like, we're real, like, this is a great bottom cultural moment, is everybody being like, Reese Hoskins killed a baseball and then Sun strider.

Was the next night you were at Jim Stakes and everyone was passing her on their phone being like, yo, Allison took off her shoes. Everybody take a look at this. Laris cranked it. This changes everything. Everything. Okay, to your point, I agree with you. I think that's a very well-made and very good perspective on that. Because it really does come down.

There are so many talented people. As one of the chief donors to Beto O'Rourke's political career, you should also believe in optimism as well. Not giving up with my guy. Third time's charm, man. I think he's got it this time. I really do. I love it when you get the text.

They're just like, we're within four points of the statistical margin of error. Yeah, that usually comes with like we're within $3 million of our goal today. It's fine. That's fine. I heard Carly Simon's playing a benefit. I think it's going to work out. That'll put them over the top. That's finally going to do it.

There's so many talented writers and producers and creators in this town. And it's really just a question of, it's a question of executive fortitude and ultimately also of financial. cost. Because for all the attention, House of the Dragon is getting pro and con, you have to remember that the executive suite at HBO of Casey Blois and Francesca Orsie and everybody, they're working on stuff two to three years in the future. So they're putting out fires on House of the Dragon season two and maybe addressing some of the things we're complaining about today. They are talking, I hope, actively still, to Stephen Conrad, who's a really interesting television maker who made Patriot and Perpetual Grace and

that weird show with the puppets, its name I forget, he's making the dunk and egg show for them, or at least as in, you know, it's been announced. You said that with like an incredible sense of authority about dunk and egg. The dunk, Dunkin Egg show. The reason I paused is because it was brought to my attention at some point during our Talk the Thrones era that people who listen to the podcast maybe don't hit refresh on Vulture a lot thought that we were, that there was one guy. who made...

His name is Duncan Egg? No, who made Game of Thrones, and his name was Benny Offenweiss, who I did go to Hebrew school with. And is now... He was in uncut gems. He's actually took over his father's orthodontist practice in Drexel Hill, and he's doing great.

But, so I was like, this could go wrong if I say Duncan Egg, they think it's like a guy named Duncan Egg. Yeah. But it's dunk, pause, and... Anyway. So, yeah, so they are, trying to give different looks at this

and they're trying to give different versions and it's only the shows they make can only be as good as the pitches they deliver. So I think you're right about that. But I was I was really shocked by this episode of TV and can I give you some can I make the case for it?

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you to do. Okay. I said this last night on Talk to Thrones but I'll just repeat myself that I think that this show has suffered a bit from its time jumps and its relationship to chronology, not necessarily. And I know that you've mentioned the coherence of it has been a little bit affected by that. But I think just in terms of the continuity of performances, which is not to say anything bad about Emily Carey and Milly O'Cock's performances as Young Rainier and Allison,

I just have really enjoyed knowing Olivia Cook and Emma Darcy are going to be these people for a while. And then I thought that the idea that this is the moment after Vassaris has died, the rush into the power vacuum that happens. And it had actually, it had a little bit of the urgencies that good succession episodes have. It was nowhere near as good as a succession episode to me. I'm just saying that this was a good version of time in this show.

I thought making it essentially a showcase for Olivia Cook really worked. A lot of the times, all through this episode, up until the midway point, I was like, oh, we're going to go to Dragonstone. are we going to now be like getting the other side of this story? I thought it was cool that they stayed

entirely in Lincoln's Landing entirely with Allison Otto kind of going back and forth about like if we have the kid then we can kind of dictate the terms of the succession here and their little rivalry was cool to me.

And yeah, I mean, to me I got out of that episode and I was like, that was pretty good. And then when I heard people saying like, oh, I really didn't care for it, I was a little confused. So what didn't you like about it? I think that this is a show that is primarily devoted to ticking boxes

and has almost no interest in building boxes or explaining why there are boxes to begin with. So you go into that small council scene. And my guy Beesbury. Well, I want to talk about that. The entire plan has already been hatched off camera and they're just going to put it into effect because that's what has to happen now.

I don't understand that. I don't understand why you don't dramatize intrigue instead you just bulldoze past it. And not just bulldoze past it, kill the dad from Fleabag, just for giving a speech, and then showing no one caring about that. Like, I just feel like the show itself

keeps revealing itself to be, it's not just that it's not interested in things that I might be interested in or casual fans might be interested in. I think it's kind of a claustrophobic, mean-spirited show. Well, it doesn't have Peter Dinklage or Nicola Koso Wilder. It doesn't have any humanity. It doesn't have any humor.

No one even seems, I mean, Alison recoils a little bit about the guy leaking brain blood out on the table, but they finish the meeting. Professionals. Is this what it's like, every so often. Goal-oriented. Every so often, I'm like, Chris, can we record tomorrow? And Chris is like, no, we got an all-day NBA, all-hands meeting. And is that kind of the vibe? Is that what it's like?

That's why you haven't heard from Kevin O'Connor recently. It's a damn shame. It's a damn shame. But like, I mean, just talk about the conflict, right? They're like, okay, we've decided that we're going to make Egon the king. And this is all coming from a bit of miscommunication, deathbed miscommunication. That's the sort of thing that maybe that works on the page, but that doesn't, that's not drama. I agree that that was thin.

I think that the, the strange thing about. that was that even if you had taken out his deathbed fake will change. Yeah. Overall, the sort of desire to have a male heir to the throne and to keep power high tower adjacent, it totally makes sense. It was always there, yes. Yeah, so I think it almost would have been better if it had been like, you know, Viseris towards the end of his life and who knows for how long, kind of fucked up.

who knows whether he was seeing things straight, especially towards the end of his days. I think that Renera trip fucked him up. We got to have a holding pattern here. And maybe we should have a queen regent, or maybe we should have Agon be king, because Reneer is just too volatile to be queen. The land won't accept a woman leader.

And to that point, I was talking about this with Mal and Joe, we don't really get to see many of the people that are being ruled in this show. Not at all. Right. What do they want? I mean, they're, what do they want?

When they were all like, yeah, Agon, I was like, had no idea. Had no idea the polling was going that direction. It's like, it's like when a new city gets an expansion team,

they're like, well, just clap forever. The T-shirt gun. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. This is exciting. But they were like,

now Viceras has named Aagon as his air. And everybody's like, yeah, okay. Cool. Zach Eflin's the closer now? Sure.

You guys seems like a great guy. Why is he bleeding? But also, it does a disservice to character like Allison. And I feel you that Olivia Cook is a great performer. But I don't get where she is because she should know what she's uncorking here. Oh, I've changed my mind, but this is what my father's been saying he'd wanted for 25 years. So how does she think this is going to play out? Instead, we play off her of being shocked.

And similarly, similarly, there are just a lot of these like momentum. him in stakes killing decisions. Like, the thrust of the episode was, let's find the wistral wayward prince, but it's a battle not between the High Tower aligned faction and Reneira, who probably would have a strong opinion about the events happening in this episode. Right. It's a not at all battle between grandpa and mom to find the kid first, led by characters who we haven't really seen before, these twins.

I mean, we've seen them. Oh, Eric, the Eric twins? Yeah. But I don't particularly have any opinion or fondness of them. But the show does make time to show a feral child fight pit, which, again, it's just like, I don't know who they're trying to impress anymore. Like we get the depravity of this world. We've gotten it for 10 years.

Right. Show me a single non-depraved thing, and you might have my attention just for keeping me interested in keeping me surprised. But if we didn't have the kid fight club, then we wouldn't have gotten a must. Saria's accent back. I mean, look. Mallory, call in right now and talk to me about this.

It is, it is a little, Chad Hayes. Yeah. Right? Like it's, it's a little, and it's not even Gary,

if Gary Oldman and true romance is like, that's where the bar is set for the white roster. Like this is, I'm really confused by it. But for real, so to, then just talk to me about the end.

Right? Like, It's just... You want me to talk to you about the end? Yeah. Okay. Tell me, at least pitch me on a version here of what the hell was going on other than

than Renice needed to leave and they needed to have a dragon scene in this episode. I was absolutely bizarre to me. I don't know why there wasn't a, you know, a different exit for that dragon. I don't know if all dragons come up through the floor, you know? Yeah. I gathered that she was,

was trying to be as disruptive as possible. I think that she pops up. Can I make a suggestion of how to be more disruptive? Light them on fire, yes. Literally melt everyone as opposed to just being like, yes, again, these subjects are just chum right now. Like how many people, what's the over under on people killed in that moment? I think that the conversation that she has with Allison in in her room when Allison comes to her and is like, hey, how about you throw your lot in with us? And she's just like, I don't really like back away from my oaths.

very easily. And then there's that great line about the window in the prison. And I think that she sees Allison step in front of her son and recognizes her as a mother and as a like-minded person and is like, I'm leaving, but I'm not going to

incinerate you. But I'm not a Game of Thrones scholar. So I don't know. Are you saying, should that have been my attitude about the show? I see you. And I'm judging you, but I'm not going to incinerate you. And I'm just going to fly away.

It looks like you're sharpening a knife right now. I'm whittling. I'm whittling a little bit. A little dragon? I don't know. I really don't know. I mean, this is a companion show. If it was marketed and branded as a companion show of like,

were you ever wondering how we got to the Mad King that wasn't on the previous show? Well, here you are. Then I think that's fine. But I just think that it is absolutely compounding. See, I thought that you had arrived at like a, a stability with this. I thought that you had been like,

I have realized I should be watching it differently. I thought I was too. Tell them for the sake of the podcast. How did you decide that you were supposed to be watching it? Well, I mean, I think I said it as a criticism like six weeks ago that this was a Wikipedia entry, but now I'm like maybe celebrate that. Maybe that's a feature, not a bug, right?

They are actually going to dramatize the sort of events that when we were doing the after show, Jason and Mallory, were kind enough to, explain to us. And there might be some pleasure in that. But as it turns out, at least for this viewer, there isn't, because there is no goal here whatsoever beyond an abstract sense of power and literal hardware of sitting on the throne. I don't see any characters here with personalities. I don't see anyone here with wants or desires or likes or loves or humanity. And that's not TV show. Definitely not the case with Laris. That guy has desires. Laris has desires.

and I was happy to see that, you know, not... Were you like GTFO when that scene happened? Or were you like, this is dramatically interesting at all? I mean, I had questions about how the scene was playing in the Tarantino household. Look, I'm not kinkshaming. I thought that was fine. Like, for real, there's a character here. Because otherwise, up to this point, why is he doing what he's doing?

Why is he killing his father? Why is he killing his brother? Why is he just lurking around? Feet. It's just feet. Yeah, that's why. It's feet. I mean, you know.

David Mamet said a character needs to want something. And the play is how they go about getting it. That is absolutely. That was what was in the writer's room for this episode. We should wrap up soon so that we can get to this Tegan and Sarah interview. Let's get to it. But I don't want to end on me just being like, I thought this was a weak episode of television. But I did find it to be a confounding episode of television.

Sometimes I think I defend this show and you're like, that's a really good point. And I haven't heard you say that yet today. I thought that was a really good David Mamet poll. Thanks. I don't, I just, I just don't know. You'd like to say, your old bones are being warmed by the sun emanating from that coming soon on HBO video that I said. Oh, I did want to talk about that.

Yeah. Thank you. I thought that was really interesting because nobody, no network and no streaming service has ever been so surefooted about its own cultural currency than HBO. I mean, they would, they do this. They make these. trailers and you're like, oh my God, this is the sun and the moon and the stars of entertainment. Like, they truly, they truly do have it all. And they are on a different level. And it's branding.

And it's marketing. There's really no other place that can say, you know, you come here for this level of TV. Right. And that, like, even in the quick cutting montage of like, new season of Barry, new season of winning time, new season of righteous gemstones. I'm like, that's 30 hours. You've got from here. Yeah, I'm going to watch those shows. Exactly. And then, you know, to have some of the new stuff, to have Last of Us, which I get increasingly hyped up for, to have the first we've seen of season four of Succession. And to have even like just that brief moment of the Soderberg thing, it just looks thrilling.

Well, so you confirm this for me that the footage of Succession Season 4 in this trailer is new. That's new. That's new. And that was also pretty exciting because the footage was Brian Cox all the way better. just in the driver's seat again. And it was a reminder that by choice and by actor's performance and how great he is and what was going on,

he was diminished last season. He's been diminished for parts of two seasons. And I feel like that is a smart play to having... It's just like 91-year-old Rupert being like, you know what, let's merge back again. Yeah. A new story I have no commentary on

because I don't really understand it. But he seems frisky. So the markets will listen. thought the most interesting thing about this to me was the, there were two things. One was the juxtaposition of a very old school or buying out the bar HBO trailer, which harkens back to the days of Boardwalk Empire coming back to the old style. Gilded Age is coming back, yeah. Paired with this show that, you know, to me is the fork in the road inflection point of HBO Warner Discovery becoming a different kind of media company. That was an interesting

juxtaposition and pairing. I was reminded of it again also at the end of this trailer because, and I don't know whether if this is just like Casey pettiness or just the way it shook out but then it's like, and also HBO Max exists. And then there's like 10 shows, some of which are Emmy Award winning

shows like hacks. Yeah. One of which is the Sex and the City sequel, which by the way I guess by some metric wasn't good enough to be on HBO. And Minks, which I thought was a really good show. Like it just burns through those. And these two. like they're the Pips.

That was weird. That was weird. But it speaks to the continued weirdness of, we're HBO, but all of our content is on HBO Max. And HBO Max makes shows too, except, whoops,

no, we stopped for six months because the new boss came in and threw out everything we were doing, but trust us, we're going to keep doing stuff. It's weird. It's a weird moment for this service.

It's definitely a weird moment. Time will have to tell whether or not you're right about this being an inflection point. I think it's viewed as much more of a success than you are saying, giving your credit for. Oh,

in this case, I don't mean like this was such a failure that it's going to change the business. I know it used to be this like shining ruby in the in the family jewels and now it's kind of like here's this metal rock for the nerds. But I don't think it's, I don't think it's being viewed as that. And I do think that there is in the same way that Game of Thrones ended poorly. I think the House of the Dragon could get could get better. Sure. They just got to put my guy aim in front and center. I just don't come at him from the right. He isn't, his personal vision.

It's not great. I just don't know where the freedom comes from because as you said, it's yoked to this fictional history, right? So it's just going to, it can, what can it do that isn't recounting? Yeah. Unless it invents some sort of new, you know, our, what we always say, the Han Solo, the Tyrion figure. Yeah, but I'm not really sure.

Like, we knew everything that was going to happen in Game of Thrones up to a certain point. I didn't. Well, I didn't either, but like, I don't know everything that's going to happen on House of Dragon. Well, I actually do because I looked at the... Did you? So bad. That's what I did for...

What was that movie that everybody liked? That Sean had the guy on... The horror movie from last month? Barbarian? Yeah. Great wiki. Do you know we just did a podcast where we explained what happened

in that movie to Amanda? Oh, I should listen to it. That's me. I just read the Wikipedia. And I was like, oh, it seems pretty good. Wait, just to say... Look, this is the one where I'm just... I'm feeling...

This has been a really thoughtful exchange of ideas. I don't want you to feel at all embarrassed about what's going on here. I feel good. I'm the fanatic standing on top of the Braves Clubhouse right now, okay? This is just what it is. But I think that this is an interesting inflection point two, because historically HBO hasn't made shows like House of the Dragon. They didn't even make, I just said it, the Sex and the City reboot sequel.

That's HBO Max because HBO doesn't do reboots. The show, Pennyworth, the secret origin of Batman's Butler, HBO Max, baby. Like, that's where that stuff goes. And I think that the old thinking that on HBO we only advance the narrative with big swings and original content and quality, whether it works or not, but that is the argument, is what fueled that first aborted Game of Thrones spinoff. That I think looms large over all of this because from everything we understand about it, it was a big and radical swing that failed. I'm not saying they should have made that. I think from everything I've heard, it didn't work.

but I think everything since then has been a lurched towards conservatism. Like, let's get this back. Let's get that safe. And we praised that when we saw the pilot because I was like, what else can we say here other than they kept it going?

This feels like Game of Thrones and then I wonder what they'll do with it. I would say that the praise that I had for the first episode of House of the Dragon after we first saw it is the praise that I would have for Rings of Power after I saw the last episode, which is like you guys didn't fuck this up.

And I don't mean that as like faint praise. I don't mean that. But it was like in no way embarrassing, occasionally thrilling, certainly competent, and probably enormously important to people who love Tolkien, you know? Isn't, I don't want to spoil it, so don't say it because we didn't prepare for this. But isn't the finale of Rings of Power, someone finding out surprise your Soron? Yeah. Is that what I picked up on? He knew.

Oh, he knew. Okay. I misread. I thought it was like, whoops, I'm Soron. I think he was like, I've been Soron, but I needed you to, I need to get everything in order before I. I thought it was a, you know, like, those games like killer, like murder or mafia, whatever. Yeah. You get the note and you're like, oh, oh, oh, it was me.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Kaya often on the weekends plays whoops, your soar on. It's like a, it's like a fun dinner game. Don't slander Kaya's weekends. She has more fun in a single weekend than we have in a calendar year. Okay. Do you need to set up your Tegan and Sarah interview at all?

Just that I love these two. It was great to talk to them again. There's a lot of talk about the TV show. high school, how it got on our screens. And I, you know, Chris and I both really like the show. I think the first three or four episodes are streaming now on FreeVee. So it's really fun to talk to two really smart, fun women that I've known for a long time who made this jump into television. And then also the back half of the interview is about their new album Cry Baby, which is really excellent. And they talk about kind of going for pop stardom, which they kind of achieved with their

album Heartthrob, and then figuring out what they want to do next and what motivates them. So I love talking to them. They're always a fun interview. So it's a great time for gals in high school, by the way, on TV, where it's this in high school and Derry Girls. Oh, yeah. And also, don't high school girls have a really good time on Euphoria? Isn't that kind of just about... That time meant literally now, but yes.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a good time. No. Does anyone play Whoops, your Sauron? Yeah. Are you going to get fired if you answer this question? I don't watch the show, so I don't know. I don't know. We'll be back on Thursday talking about and or in Atlanta.

I might not be back. Why? What do you worry about? I'm worried about the succession plans you have. I'm really worried now. Talk to you guys soon. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something?

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So I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin. Way better than $3. points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. Okay, I'm so excited to be joined now by two women who I have known and admired for a very long time who have a new album, Crybaby, their 10th out on October 21st, but also a TV show called High School based on their 2019. memoir of the same name. That is going to premiere October 14th. We're going to talk about all of it. I'm joined by Tegan and Sarah. Welcome back to the show.

Ooh, hi, Andy. Hi, Andy. Thanks for having us. It's so great to see you guys. I feel like I just want to say that like I first interviewed you guys 22 years ago. Oh my God. I know. Wait, when we were born, you were there? Yes. That's so crazy. I was invited. Yeah. My mom was like, Andy, we need you to capture. that's kind of like a double disc because it makes me seem young and you seem really old. It's okay.

No, people don't know this that before starting this podcast I was like an Alan Lomax type wandering Canada just hoping to stumble into auspicious births. And it worked. Was the first time you interviewed us 22 years ago?

Was it for Spin? Magazine? It was. Yeah. Fuck, that's a long time. You guys came in and you performed acoustically in our dot-com office.

Yeah. And here we are. So this is really exciting because you used to interview you guys about music, still love music, I think her new album is great and we're going to talk about it. But as someone who pivoted to television also, I just feel like this is a great move. And the show is really good. And I want to talk about that too. So your choice, what would you rather talk about first?

Or should we just say like, should we just start with how are you doing? Let's talk about how we follow. Let's talk about how we followed you into the TV world. Thank you. Thank you for that. You were our inspiration. Like when you left music. This is why I wanted that of this.

Yeah. Like we were like, oh God, if Andy's leaving, we should probably leave to. You don't want to be the last one at the party, right? No. No, we do not. Yeah, we've been, this has been a journey. I mean, probably this, like only speaking from our own experience, like, you know, to pivot and write the memoir was thrilling.

and really creatively satisfying. But then to have, you know, obviously a very calamitous thing happened with the pandemic, it did give us a lot of time to develop a TV show. So, I mean, that was not the worst thing was to find ourselves sort of with a lot of time on our hands. And, you know, and the good sort of luck of knowing Cleodival, who's a good friend, who could help us, you know, really find a home and supporters to make this into a TV show so fast. I know a lot of people work a lot longer at trying to bring something like this to fruition. And we just, you know, we've been really, really lucky to find some great partnerships and be able to put this thing into works right, like, you know, right away.

And I have to say, I have to say, like, do we use other word partnerships? I have to tell this story. I haven't actually vocalized this out loud, Sarah, to you yet. But this past weekend, we were in Calgary, which is our hometown, which is where our memoir, of course, is set. and the show, it being our origin story, is also set in Calgary, and we were lucky enough to get to shoot there. And we had the premiere at the Calgary International Film Festival this past weekend. And when we went to take our seats, you know, it's a theater full of Calgarians,

lots of people who worked on the show, all of our high school friends, my mom flew in, and my dad was there with his partner. And as we load into the theater to take our seats, there's a bit of a kerfuffle, because they've told us our seats are going to be in one place, but they're not. And when we get to our seats, they're in the like, you know, dreaded. Like, I feel like theaters are never full now, so you never have to sit in these seats. But, you know, the dreaded, like, against the wall, like, second row. Like, you can't even really see the screen.

And that's where our seats are. And Sarah and her partner have loaded into the row first. And Sarah just turns around and says, no. Like, I'm not, like, you know, her partner's name is Stacy. Stacey hasn't seen the show. You can't see anything. We're not watching it from here. And Sarah gets other seats and leaves me with my mom, my dad, and his partner.

partner. And so I'm seated next to my dad. And I give them, you know, as far away from the wall as possible. It was fine. But I'm so funny at the end of the show. Well, they played three episodes back to back consecutively. And at the end of the third episodes, the credits ran. And it was the first time I've seen the credits because, you know, we just locked a picture. We just locked sound. We just locked everything a few weeks ago. And when the credits start rolling, you know, it has all the producer names, which, of course, it has Sarah and I's name, which is very exciting. My dad would seem very proud and excited. But then Brad Pitt's name is on it because, you know, plan B, the production company that we partnered with very early on is, you know,

Brad Pitt's production company. My dad, he goes, what the hell? Why is Brad Pitt's name on there? And I'm like, well, I mean, we've told you this dad. Like his production company has made the show with us. And he's like, Brad Pitt, it was like the most exciting moment for him. But I was like, right. Like, that's pretty dope. You know? make a TV show and Brad Pitt's like the fifth name that comes up after, you know, pretty cool. Also, my other takeaway from that story is that Sarah's gone more Hollywood because Sarah immediately saw the seating arrangement was like, no. No, you know what? That also is fake news. That is not a real story because what happened was, was that Stacy, who's American. So I'm going to blame it on the

fact that she's American. Oh, I see. Okay. So it's on fake news. She turned and looked at me when I brought her to the seat closest to the wall and she said, do I seriously have to sit here? And I was like, like, no, you don't. Let's turn around. Let's go. We can even, we'll stand at the back if we have to. She is a very, she's like a big, I mean, I guess you could call her like, I don't know if Cinephile is the right thing to say, but like she is definitely into movies and television in a way that is far more highbrow than me. And she was like, I'm not about to watch this thing that made you leave home for three and a half months while I was pregnant to go and sit next to the wall and watch it. So I don't care. This thing with Brad Pitt's name on. This thing with Brad Pitt's name on.

I'm not going to be sitting in the second row next to the wall. Your parents can sit. Your parents can sit there, but not me. No, this is also very good for cultural stereotyping that are also true in which the American demand something and affects change and the Canadian is facilitating kindly. I just like, let me help you. And do you want to know it was great is that all the people from Amazon that were there, we've partnered with Amazon Freeview for the show. And the Amazon people had great seats.

They were sitting like halfway back center. And I said, I want to sit here with my partner. And they've said, absolutely. And then they were like, and what else can we do for you? Can we get you wine? Can we get you popcorn? I was like, I'm not going to sit up. Offernate shipping?

Yeah, I'm not going to sit in, I'm not going to sit and coach with my family when I can be sitting in business class with my American supporters. Like, forget it. Apparently, nobody was concerned about what happened to me, which was that I walked to show with my parents against the wall, second row, couldn't see anything. I could barely hear anything. No one brought popcorn or wine. But you know what? It was still really cool. It's still freaking cool to do what we do.

This podcast is the birth of hashtag justice for Tegan. This is where it begins. The movement begins here. Well, okay, so here's my new thought after hearing you guys speak about this, which is really maybe the best way to talk about both of these projects, Cry Baby and High School, is to think of them as part of the larger arc of your career over the last few years and your creative journey.

And I wonder if we could just step back, because the last time you guys were on the podcast, which was a while ago, my fault, 100%. Did we do something wrong? Just for Megan and Sarah. I know, no, never. Was, you know, I was talking to you guys about you had just been on stage with Taylor Swift. at the Staples Center. I think the Oscars thing was either had just happened or was going to happen.

And over the last few years, there was such an interesting, you know, deep dive into your past. First the memoir and then the album you made revisiting songs that came from that era. And how this TV show, which is sort of, you know, it's set in the past, but it's also a very contemporary concern for you guys. Is there a conversation to be had about where your career was at the precipice of high school, what it was like to suddenly turn the cameras backwards a little bit and the effect? that it had on you creatively. I think that definitely the, I mean, not to harp on the word justice, I certainly don't think it was injustice.

But, you know, I think getting to a place in our career where we had a platform large enough to dictate, like, the, you know, the narrative moving forward, I found myself looking backwards. I did. You know, I was interested in making new things. But I also was like, wow, you know, we have this really solid career. we have this really supportive fan base,

but I still have this kind of thorn in my side about things that happened to us when we first started our career. And I think wanting to set that record straight, you know, feels... First of all, I don't think that we invented that. I mean, I look on all the streaming sites right now, and it's like documentary after documentary

about like all the, you know, significant artists and women from the past who were wronged by the media and, you know, and the culture. And I think there is this kind of like collective, this sort of looking back at the late 90s and, well, really the 90s and early Otts and going like, oh, geez, I guess we were monstrous to people. I guess we did a really bad job. Like, you know, like supporting and critiquing, you know, some of our most significant cultural icons. Not that Tegan and I are that, but I also look back at those early years in our career and think, like,

you know what, I'd like to just have my own voice and my own retelling of that time as part of the record. And, you know, so, you know, you're talking about being on a stage with, like, Taylor Swift. And, you know, that kind of came on the heels of our album heartthrob where Tegan and I, I think, you know, we took a run at the mainstream. And I think we were really successful in that. And we, you know, achieved a lot of really amazing career highlights. But, you know, I think we both found ourselves reflective on, you know, well, where do you go from here? And, like, what is, what is the purpose of Tegan and Sarah and the platform that we've developed all these years? You know, what do we want our legacy to be about? Is it a, you know, is it a. about achieving, you know, streaming? Is it about, you know, increasing ticket sales? Is it about, you know, whatever? And for us, I think we both realized, like, we just were creative people and we're storytellers and giving ourselves opportunities to branch into other areas of storytelling, using our own experiences felt so natural, you know, and I'll give credit to Tegan, who, the initial sort of pitch was more of a podcast kind of thing. But, you know, really quickly, we sort of landed on this idea of writing a, writing a memoir. And Tegan, again,

again was the one who said, like, we hadn't even written the memoir. And Teagan was like, I think it'll make a great movie. I think this will be a great movie. And I was like, we haven't even written it. All we've done is write the pitch. Tegan was already ready to, you know, sell it off. And then, you know, the manuscript was done, but it hadn't even come out yet. And Teigen was sending it out to people like our friend Cleo Duval and saying, hey, do you think that this could be something else? And, you know, here we are. So I think, you know, like all of those things kind of combined, you know, were really the sort of like fuel for all of this. I'm glad you didn't do a podcast because then you know that the stories would have been following Greenwald again.

Well, it's such a big shadow. You've caught, you've cast such a long shadow. What are we supposed to do? Yeah, God. No, I appreciate that. Thank you. So the Clea connection to it came early, but do you really credit the pandemic with like allowing it to happen so quickly? How did that happen?

Well, so the book was published in September 2019. And so I think maybe it was three months beforehand. We got it into Clea's hands. And we wanted her to blurb for the book, which I hate that word, blurb. But we wanted her to blurb for the book. And she called, like, well, she text me and said, I want to talk to you right away. I was up all night reading this and called me and was just like, you know, really moved. And was basically like, how do I, how do I partner with you guys?

Don't just sell your story off. Don't just let anybody come in here. You'll lose control. You won't have a say. Let's develop it. together and work on it together. And so she flew down, or flew up, I should say, to Vancouver from L.A. where Sarah and I had both just relocated. And we spent a week, you know, working out the idea of sort of how to take the book and turn it into a TV show. And then Clea left and did her Clea magic

and sent us an outline. And then, you know, our TV agents started shopping that around. We met with a bunch of production companies. And in the end, we found Plan B to be cool and hip and curated in the way that we were all probably needing egotistically, like wanting someone really cool and amazing, but also was just like really into the music. And, you know, Jeremy Kleiner was really very optimistic about what could happen with this story in the book and was a big fan of music.

It talked eloquently about music. And then we put the book in the album out and Clea continued to sort of work on an outline and then off of the pandemic hit. And one of our first calls was to Clea and to our TV agent and our book agent and we all got on a call together and we were like, well, we're all going to be home. I don't know if we'll be able to take meetings, but do you think people will be meeting over

Zoom? And they were like, absolutely, people are going to keep pitching. Things are going to go back to normal. And so we were off, you know, we started taking these pitch meetings. And within a few months, obviously, of sort of having that first conversation, we had this offer. And I think probably because we were all at home and not quite as busy, we were really pushy, pushy at the beginning. But the truth is, Cleo was working on so many other projects.

I mean, she has a bunch of different active projects. So who knows? Maybe it would have happened as quickly, but there was something about us all being at home. We just stayed on it and had a lot of time and energy. And Sarah and I were very enthusiastic about it and really pushy. I don't think it hurts, too, that it was, I mean, there was just like a serendipitous. Like, Clea had made a film called Happy a Season, which I debuted around Thanksgiving on Hulu. And, you know, starting Kristen Stewart.

And it was a big hit for Hulu. you know, that, I think that was like, you know, that was like a big deal. Like, you know, people, I remember when it happened, you know, feeling like, okay, we can, we can use this. Like, Clea's, you know, made this really mainstream successful thing. And, and then also, you know, this is going to sound crazy. But, like, Tegan and I, we knew who the twins were that were going to play us on the show. Like, we just knew. And we had found them on TikTok. And we were like, this, we were like, this is the time. Like, they're 20 years old. And they're friggin adorable.

And to me and Tegan, they were already stars because they had like tens of millions of likes on TikTok for just being fucking adorable. And so we were like, we found the stars of the TV show. We are not touring. We have every, like we are available. We are ready to be part of this. Clea just served a huge hit to Hulu. Like put us in the game.

Like we can make this. And then I think the real like, I think what really truly might have sealed the deal was just that in Alberta. So Calgary where we where we shot the show and where we grew up. the province of Alberta, they have crazy big tax breaks right now for filming. It's just, it's a real hotspot for, you know, for filming. And it's economical. If you can call the numbers that people use to make TV shows, economical from a music industry perspective, we are like, we were given $3 trillion.

You know, like, I mean, that's what it feels like. But as people who are now making music videos for like $800, everything in TV film seems insane. But, yeah, I think... 800 Canadian or American? 800 Canadian. Just, yeah, it's like, it's one, one millionth of a Bitcoin in Canadian. Oh, now I get it. Yeah, yeah, you know, those numbers.

But yeah, I think the combination of just happening to want to make the show in a place where it is pretty economical to make a show. And then, you know, all those other factors, it was like, we got a green light. It was so thrilling. First of all, I just remember writing to my business manager after it got greenlit. And I was like, Donna, we have a job again. Because we did not, had not worked. You know, we were like, we were like sideline touring band people who just sat on our butts for a year. So we were just like, we have a job.

It was so exciting. Well, the show that resulted, I mean, first of all, the show is great. And I can't wait for people to check it out. But what's really striking about it right from the beginning is it is so, first of all, confident in its point of view in the world that it brings us into. But it's so understated in a way that I really responded to and really loved. You know, obviously the hook and in reviews will talk about the aspects of your life, the drawn from your life about growing up. and coming of age in the 90s. But what I love about it is that it kind of could be said at any time.

It is the least heavy-handed 90s show that I think I've ever seen. And I love that for it as someone who also grew up in the 90s. From the beginning, and I mean this absolutely is a compliment, I'm watching the first episode. And I paused it about 10 minutes in just to make sure it was the first episode. Because there was no handholding in the best way. You know what I mean? Like I was dropped into a world and I was just there.

And I was feeling good about that, but I was trying to do my professional due diligence to Sometimes you click the wrong window on the screener site. How much was this part of the conversation early on? Because when you're talking to people, even people you trust creatively, like Clea, it's just words until you actually roll. You know what I mean? So to get that specific of a tone and to be that assured early on. I mean, we were definitely, you know, when we went into pre-production and started to see the documents, you know, about what the tone of the show, like just even what the color was going to look like and how they were going to shoot it. And, you know, when Tegan and Sarah are.

getting along, you'll see them unobstructed. And when they're not getting along, there will be objects between, like, you know, just the, I had no idea that things were this specific, or maybe I thought very eccentric filmmakers, like the 1% of the 1% would be this specific. But, you know, Claire really had a vision and had, you know, pulled together a really incredible team to help her bring that vision to life, who contributed many of the ideas themselves. But yeah, the first day on set, you know, the first shot, it was like, oh, God, this is so cool. I think there's like a fear as Canadians that we're going to make something too Canadian. And so, like, I remember when we got the green light,

a few of my friends who were in the industry were like, oh, no, and you're going to shoot it in Canada. It's going to seem so Canadian. But I think that lots of great stuff gets made in Canada. But, yeah, like, we also, the flip side of that was our fear was that it would be overly Americanized and then it wouldn't feel like our, you know, our upbringing. And it wouldn't, there is something very American about Canada.

We're all kind of the same. But there's very specific Canadianisms we felt really, like, should be there. So it was a fine balance to try to make it not too American, but not too Canadian. And I think they did that beautifully. I also think there were so many conversations early on about making sure it wasn't too pastiche. You know, it shouldn't be like, every scene shouldn't be like, it's the 90s. And like, it's the 90s. It's the 90s. Like, it shouldn't feel like that. It should feel like you could watch it now. And at some point, you'd be like, right, like landlines. This is not set in today. Like there's no, the absence of

cell phones is potentially the most glaring past thing. But everything else feels like it could be of this time. And the other big shift from how we saw our lives and would have depicted it, I'm sure, if Sarah and I were in charge entirely, was that we were quite bright and colorful and ravery, which is a very 90s thing. And I think Clea sidestepped that for the most part. I think there might be some exploration of that in the next season if we got another season as we go into 11th grade because we do get more into raves and whatever.

But I feel like the show feels almost more like mid-90s or early 90s rather than late 90s. And I think it's late 90s that's very hip and cool right now, like the big white pants and the colorful clothes and the kind of rave culture. So I think it was smart. Initially we were like, well, we wore bright colors and we were like this. And Clea kind of just ignored it. I was, it's very pleasantly surprised and pleased at how good that felt, you know, to like not have. have it be like biopic. It's not, it's not an exaggeration of the actual life we lived. It's definitely inspired by and that feels really good. And I think it makes it easier to jump in.

Like, it's not like that 70s show or whatever it's called. You know what I mean? Like when we said, oh, we're making a show in the 90s, everyone's like, oh, 90s. And it's like, no, like this, that's the thing is like coming of age and adolescence and high school and longing and love and all of that stuff is so universal and of no time. And so I feel like the show does a good job of allowing you to tap into those universal themes without getting dragged down into like, it's the 90s. And how did you guys balance, though, the quite different responsibilities of being executive producers, but then also being source material, you know, in the sense that are the

young actors playing youthful versions of you? Are they looking to get coached up? Are they asking? Are you finding yourselves giving notes on accuracy? or verisimilitude, or is your role quite different than that? I think it was, I think, our intention to be helpful and to be present so that we could be supportive if people needed our point of view or if we saw something glaring.

One of the sort of sensitive intersections for me, at least with the process and being friends with Clea, you know, this isn't just our story and we're not just public figures who are still alive. This is our brand. It is our IP. You know, the characters in the show are called Tegan and Sarah, and we have managed to go almost 25 years without being canceled or a scandal. I mean, if you don't look at our pitchfork scores on our early albums,

I mean, we've basically managed to sort of be like a good band and with who has put out things that are sort of like critically liked and, you know, know, with a legacy as personal, you know, people who are kind and generous and who are fun to go see a concert and give back when we can. You know, like in general, I feel like our reputation is good. And so to sort of surrender our brand, if you will, our IP to someone, you know, it was very complicated for me. And I think that that was probably the most, that was probably the thing that was the most challenging because I think for Clea, sometimes it was just like, well, I just, I want the character to say this thing or do this thing. And I would be like, yeah, we cannot.

You know, we just, like, I think we were looking at it under such a different microscope at times. And I think that that is, that's the challenge of deciding to work with your friends. And it's the challenge of deciding to work with people who are alive and who want to be a part of it and who are executive producers. And I think we all walked that line and are still friends on the other side. And I think that I think that the work is better for that collaboration and that involvement. And again, you know, we really tried not to invade the boundary. but on the other hand it's like look this is you know if the twins were called

like you know Nancy and Tara it might be something else but it's like it's Teagan and Sarah like you know like we're got we can't like you know Nancy and Tara just doesn't have a ring to it the way that Teagan and Sarah does so in season two Sarah doesn't flirt with becoming an insult comedian who works with broad stereotypes like a local Calgary circuit I mean

I mean look I I have said like you know most of the characters can probably go in whatever direction they want but even if you make Teagan and Sarah into astronauts it's still our name you know Like, it's still going to be our Wikipedia page. And it's, yeah, I think that that was probably one of the more challenging things. Again, like Tegan and I have kept a very, very strong grip on our reputation and our public image.

I mean, we worked with the same managers for 18 years. These people did not tweet without asking our permission. You know, we are so controlled and mindful about what we put out into the world. And so, you know, making a TV show where it is just impossible. You cannot. We could not be in control about. absolutely everything. So, you know, we definitely had to surrender, you know, to this process that sometimes was, you know, personal and sometimes was just a machine, you know, where you just have to

kind of go like, okay, well, I hope Tegan and Sarah aren't duchess, you know, like that's, that's all we could do. But I will say this to season and Raleigh, who play the twins, who play Tegan and Sarah on the show, you know, almost from from the first time the camera started rolling, I was like, they're bringing their own, like this is their, this is them. Like, you know, I don't feel like they're trying to be Tegan and Sarah. They're not, you know, we know, And we never had to step in and be like, so the way that Sarah would have said that or, you know, whatever. Like, I just, I was captivated by them. I never, ever critiqued the performances of the actors on the show.

I felt like they just made these characters come alive in this way that felt profound. And when it sometimes really felt like it was me and Tegan, I could be, sometimes I was sitting in, you know, sitting on the set, like literally crying. You know, I would just be like, this is so moving. And then there was times where I just felt like, you know, I'd won a contest and I got to be on set watching a TV show get made, you know? Well, I also think one of the things that the show does really successfully that really mirrors who you guys have been creatively for so long is that it shows attention to subjectivity, because for people who haven't watched yet who are listening to this, episodes are divided

by characters' perspectives, and then the stories overlap in ways both expected and unexpected. And I particularly love when the aperture expands to include your mom's character, played by Kobe Smoulders, who's excellent. And we just get a different perspective on all of this in a way that is really enriching. and makes the whole thing broader. But I also feel like there's a connection to be made with, you know, just even within the ways you write songs that I know about, where each of you have your own subjective version of it,

but then you bring them together and maybe things get tweaked. And the end result isn't necessarily that singular vision that it started with, but it's something greater potentially than the sum of its parts. That's very elegant. Yeah, I mean that. Except the cases where you disagree and you don't like the songs much, which we don't need to get into. That's, I mean, but all of that conflict and collaboration,

All that conflict and compromise is part of collaborating, I think. But I do think that that was one of the cooler parts of the show was getting to see the Tegan and Sarah world populated by, you know, all these other characters. Because when we were writing the memoir, that was probably our biggest lesson in learning how to write a memoir, was that we didn't really get to explore other people. You know, everything had to be our version, our perspective, what we remember, what we did. And when we were out selling the show, that was one of the big things that Clea and Sarah and I all talked about was how exciting it was to get to explore those other characters. You know,

Clea's big thing was, you guys are really amazing, you're really wonderful, you're so funny and interesting, charismatic. I love you as my friends, but oftentimes it's the people around you that I find really fascinating and your mom is incredible and the opportunity to build her story and tell her story is just as exciting. But obviously, you know, a lot of the characters in the show are just composites of characters from the book and then they're just really fictionalized. And so it's also really uncomfortable because sometimes, you know, Clea and Laura Ketrell, who also wrote on the show, they would create storylines that we'd be like, well, no, you cannot have our mom drop us off in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere. That will look like neglect. And, you know, but they'd be

like, but it'll be good for television. And so I think we got to a good spot. I think the compromises that were made around the parents made it watchable and enjoyable. My dad and mom, who I sat in the war seats in the theater to watch the premiere with. Love for Sarah, yeah. Because of Sarah and Stacy. No, they loved the show. And, you know, my mom really articulated it beautifully the next morning as we flew home. You know, she was like, it was far enough removed from what actually happened that I could watch it and enjoy it. I was, she said, I understood that the value of my character, my character being the woman like named Simone, who plays our mom portrayed by Colby Smolders, is portraying a parent who goes back to work and has her own life and her own nuances and her own layers that she's peeling back.

And she is, you know, multi-dimensional and she's raising these kids. And she, you know, my mom was like going on about it. And I was like, yeah, that's what I want. I want people to see these other characters in the show and understand, not just Tegan and Sarah better, but understand what it's like to just live in this world. It's not just our story, you know. These people were our muses, too. Like one thing that Cleo really seemed to get after being friends with us for like 15 years is that we are still friends with all the people that we grew up with. We love these people.

I mean, my best friend's secret girlfriend on the show, Phoebe, is based on a real person, Krista, and Krista is still my best friend. She's still somebody who I love so much. And that's real connection, you know, like real intimacy. We stumbled upon this wonderfully open-minded, creatively stimulating, exciting group of friends who inspired us and who were our muses, who were the source inspiration for our first songs and, you know, some of the most important relationships that helped form us as individuals. And I think that the purpose of the show is to make sure that those kids,

characters are the same kind of, they have the same kind of chemistry with Tegan and Sarah on the show. Whether they're fictional characters or not, the point is, is that Tegan and Sarah found a bunch of really cute girls who really inspired them and made them want to write pop songs so they could have, you know, a lot of attention. Like, you know, all that's important. That's a great long line for the show. That's what I need. That's what you need. You just need a bunch of really cute girls. And then, no, I'm kidding. And then my mom, you know, it's just like she was a badass. She was an inspiration, a hero for us, you know.

It's one of my favorite moments in the series of the episodes I've seen is that very early on, one of the first moments, things that happens in the show is a punch is thrown between sisters. And we don't need to spoil who punches whom. We don't need to relitigate. But the mom character, as played by Colby Smolders, just yells, no. And I just feel like that taught me so much about this family and about this woman. You know, it's just absolutely not. That was the first reaction to it.

She's so, Kobe is, like, so on set, like, in the most appropriate way. like we were all in love with her. Like all generations like, you know, like the season and really are both like 21 and Tegan and I are in our 40s and there was every age in between. And like Kobe comes on set and everyone is just like, I'm in love with you. Like she's powerful. She's powerful. She's so funny and smart.

Like you can just feel like it's like the biggest, the strongest magnet, you know, in the room. She's kind and generous and thoughtful. And unexpectedly funny. Unexpectedly funny. Yeah, very funny. You know, says these things where you're like, whoa, did Kobe just say that? Like, you know, just like, I don't know. I just like love her so much and I love that she's our mom.

I actually had to sit next to her at TIF. We premiered the show at the Toronto International Film Festival. Where was Tegan sitting? Tegan was sitting center. Okay, we had great seats. No, we had great seats. We were next to each other. We were next to each other.

Sorry to interrupt. I just just. No, no. Greatest. The record, Tegan, yeah, she didn't have the greatest seats in Calgary, but she had great seats at Toronto. And I was sitting next to Kobe, and I've never been more nervous. Like, I was more nervous to sit next to Kobe than my real mom because I was just like, first of all, just like, she just so amazing.

And she's like a movie star, you know? Like even being on set with her, like, it's normalizing and whatever. But then walk into a room with a, you know, a crowd full of people. And everybody's like, oh my God, it's Kobe's Malters. And I'm just like her like, like I'm like the, I'm like the eunuch on Game of Thrones or whatever. Like I just, you know, I'm like next to her just like, you know. Like hobbling. You had to sit in a dark theater next to her.

When we got called up on stage for the Q&A, I had to sit next to Kobe. And she is just like glorious and tall and wearing a gown. And I was just like a little toadstool and like a sweatsuit next to her. I was like, it's horrible. It's horrible. It's not her fault. It's not her fault. But yeah, sitting next to her was unbelievable.

But I don't know. This is like, this has been happening at all the screenings. But when they show Sears, like when we're standing out, side waiting for Green Day tickets, people applaud in Canada. Like, people are like, Sears, and then people cheer. I don't know why. It's just like this department store of all of our childhoods or something. And when Sears came up on the screen, Kobe gasped.

She went, and Lynn was like excited. Toadstool in a sweatsuit. I'm just going to write that down. You guys have been, as always. Look up the photo, Andy. Look up the photo. If I didn't just describe it perfectly, this is why I'm a novelist now, is go go ahead and tell me I didn't define my.

perfectly. You just painted a picture that I don't need to Google. You know, I get it. You guys, you're always really generous with your time. I don't want to take up too much of it, but I did want to ask about Crybaby. And, you know, I wonder, so as a listener and as a fan, what was kind of exciting about getting this record was it had been some time since your last record and obviously been a moment for the world and you had been working on these other projects. And so I realized as I hit play, like, I didn't know what a Tegan and Sarah record was going to sound like in 2022, too, which was kind of freeing as a fan because it could be almost anything. And I wondered if that was a similar spirit that you had coming into it and how you ended up making

the record that you did. I mean, we've been joking that we've been sort of slow crawling back from the success of, we'll call it 2012 to 2017 for since. Like, you know, when heartthrob came out, it was a very exciting, glorious time and we're very happy to have done all the things we did and accessed the world that we did by putting out a pop album. Love You to Death was sort of its darker cousin record, and it was intentional. Like, it was sort of like, let's go out, reconnect with fans, just kind of put out a dark pop record. And I think Crybaby is a reaction to that time.

It was sort of like, okay, we did that. We've done indie rock. You know, we've explored a lot of terrain. Let's be patient. There's no need to set out on a journey if we're not, like, really feeling it. And we're not sure which direction to go in. And so there, you know, there was a lot of time over the last few years where we were working on these other projects. the show, but we were also writing a graphic novel. And the graphic novel, you write in script

form, which we didn't know. And then you start writing the graphic novel. And someone's like, and by the way, you're going to need to write it in a script form. Okay, going to Google that. How do I write a script? But Sarah and I shared the script. So we would pass it back and forth, you know, every week or 10 days. And so during that time, we were both, when the script was not in our possession, you know, we would write songs. And, you know, Sarah sent a bunch of different things. and I sent a bunch of different things, but it was when I heard all I wanted and I can't grow up.

But those two songs in particular where it felt like Sarah had struck gold production-wise. Because I think everything Sarah writes, I love all of her songs. I think Sarah doesn't know how to write a bad song. But, you know, some songs just stand out. No, I just don't share my bad songs.

Perhaps. Perhaps that's what it is. But, like, I can remember hearing Walking with a Ghost for the first time, you know, and thinking this is the sound of our next album. You know, I feel like they're just songs that end up influencing where we go next. And those two songs, just production-wise, energy-wise, those were things that just

struck me as being like both something we've never done before and something that doesn't sound like anything right now. And I think Sarah and I's best records are the ones that sound like they accidentally fell out of like a UFO, you know? Like right now, if you listen to what's happening musically, I don't think Crybaby necessarily sounds like it, but that's fine because it's like it'll find its way to the people and needs to find its way to. And then like probably like a year or two from now, people will be like making albums that sound like crybaby.

There are moments and I like that you threw it back to the previous records too, that there are moments in your songs, both of you that are just kind of clarifying. Like they just sort of cut through and they immediately sound, it's a moment that you recognize as you're listening that I'm going to be listening to this moment again. This is going to get stuck in my head. This is

resonating. And I actually saw it in real time because I've been playing your music for my daughters. The best piggyback, of course, is the Lego movie. You know, this is, I mean, that gets a lot of burn. So when I said, they're very skeptical of anything, but when I said that I was, you know, playing a song by you, and also the fact that your sisters, that's also a big, big plus. But when I played Walking with a Ghost, there was silence in the back seat. And then my younger daughter was like, I like this. Yeah. Like it was a really cool, very un-them reaction, which is usually immediately judgmental or not. And this was just a weird quiet. I had to check, you know, but it was, it was

cutting through the clutter in a way that I really appreciated. One of the most humbling moments for me in becoming a parent was that I had made this, I had this fantasy that the moment I brought Sid home that I would sing to him and this would be like he would love it. Like just how could he not? You know? And he absolutely hates it when I sing. He just hates it. And the only thing he likes for me to sing is if I sing in a super, super high pitched

childlike baby voice. And if I sing that song like, hands up, baby hands up, give you your heart. If I sing that, he laughs. But if I sing Tegan and Sarah, he absolutely hates it and starts crying. First of all, congratulations. I didn't even start with that.

No, that's fine. But second, like that is the thing because you think when you're going to have a kid, like, oh, this is going to be such a gift for me because I can shape the taste with good stuff and fill their brains with the music and songs. And in fact, the gift they give you is the humility of them not giving a shit.

Yeah. And also they're just, right now he's just like a meat sack with like nerves, you know? Like he's just like, he's been programmed for all of time to respond to certain things. Like, why did I think I was going to be able to bypass that, you know? Well, Adele bypassed it. Look at those videos of Adele, like people playing their babies Adele and their babies cry and I'll try. Maybe Sid's just basic.

I have no idea. But like, it's just, I don't know. I just thought for sure he would be like, Ah, the sound of my mother's voice, and he hates it. This is also why you guys are great because Tegan dropped toadstool in a sweatsuit. And we didn't even see Sarah react. And then a minute later, she's just like, was it meat sack with nerves? With nerves, even better.

It's not competitive. It's just, you know, it's cumulative. Listen, Andy, if you ever need us to punch up a script, you know, where to send it, you know, you ever need a couple of weird details, we've got it. We've got it for you. Done, first of all. We'll take that offline. But I guess the last thing about the record, I mean, I really enjoy the whole record, but there's a song that jumped out from me right from the start, which is under my control. And I was thinking about it in, especially in relation to the show, which I was watching, you know, I received them both at around the same time.

And I love the song so much because it really speaks to me as someone in his 40s is also realizing that we just know less and less. And the idea of being older and having the perspective of not knowing very much counterbalanced with the show about young people who, you know, want to know or how. have some strange confidence. It was a really nice pairing, you know, and I just thought that song was really speaking to me. You know, there's this, at least for me, there's this theme on the record, you know, songs like I can't grow up or all I wanted or under my control,

where I feel 42 years old and I still feel so much like a child. And, you know, it's a kind of vulnerability and helplessness. Like, it's not that I don't feel wise or that I haven't accomplished things. or that I haven't been around the world or that I, you know, I know how to like, I don't know, I'm resourceful. Like, I can do all of those things. But, like, I still feel so little or something. And I think that actually becoming a parent was one of the, was such an interesting duality

because on one hand, I feel so good at it. Like, I feel so, like, it is so instinctive for me. I immediately felt like, I can do this. Like, this is, I'm fine. with this. And on the other hand, there's just something more existential and ambient about how childlike being with a child makes me feel. Like how desperately I want to be parented, you know, and cared for and loved and supported again. Like when I see Sid fully, like Stacy and I, the way we bathe him or dress him sometimes in tandem, like together, like he's so love.

and so supported. Even when he cries a little bit, I almost let him cry a little bit because I'll just be like, he's so loved that I actually think he might already be spoiled by it, you know? And, you know, I think a lot of this album is like recognizing that like,

this might be the safest I ever feel. Like, I may just always kind of feel like I'm little and I'm just to drift a little bit. Like, I don't know if there's any more wisdom or life experience to harden me. Like, I just think I'm sensitive and I'm always going to feel a little bit, it like I'm out here without skin or something.

And I don't know if it's a gift to give Sid a different experience than that, but he probably is going to get it because we're old and we have nothing else to focus on. So we're just going to helicopter the hell out of him. And, you know, and then we'll die. And then he'll be alone. So sad. But he'll have this record to listen to. And he won't like it.

He'll hate the sound of my voice, but maybe he'll read the lyrics and feel inspired. But yeah, I feel like, you know, that's. That's a little bit of like new territory for me. I'm curious to see, you know, I know people get inspired by different ages of their life or, you know, experiences like parenthood. But, you know, I think, I hope that Stacey and I are going to stay together and that there's not a breakup on my horizon. So, I mean, as a creative songwriter and storyteller, you know, we have to look for, we have to look for space that's uncharted. And I, you know, I'm like interested to think about, you know, where parenthood and, and, you know, these expansions of our career are going to, what they're going to inspire.

and what kind of stories and what kind of perspective, you know, I can share with the world as like a little toadstool in a sweatsuit. Two toesstools. Just a meat sack with nerves. But I think what you guys are speaking to, which makes me very excited as a fan of all of this now in the different medium is that the sweet spot is a mix of competence. Like you know how to write songs and produce songs and now, you know, to expand into other mediums, but the vulnerability stays. and if you can if you can kind of find the balance between those two things I think you're going to be making good work for a really long time I hope so maybe not as good as Adele but good well not as good as adele and probably according to our fans never as good as the con when we were 27 but you know what we can but who's counting but who's counting and who cares um no I think actually was doing one of these personality tests that's going around and it's a new one like adobe creative suit or something I don't know it's fantastic Google it

But anyways, I was like, I was really, I'm, I hate astrology, but I like everything that sort of approximates astrology. You know, like, it's like, anyways, but it was saying, I'm the maker. I'm like, dedicated to my craft. But it, but it was sort of like talking about how like the downside to being the kind of person that I am is that I, that I, that I'm, that I'm not actually being that vulnerable. Which is bizarre to me because I'm like always crying and always writing songs about how much, you know, vulnerability I have. But I do think that there's like this challenge to constantly, you know, peel back another layer and like reveal something even more. Like, unless there's blood on the blood on the ground, you haven't done something, you know, like next level. And I don't know if I would have been able to do that.

I don't know if the layer would have peeled back naturally with, at least for me, without having a kid. Like I can already see it with Sid that it just, it just being a parent and being around a baby makes me feel like a baby. And so I am excited to see what that sort of forced vulnerability will bring. you know, to the world. Guys, we're all just meat sacks, really. Meet sacks. Yeah, this is my dad. By the way, I'd like to give credit.

That's writing credit. It goes to Stephen Quinn, our father, who often describes people as meat sacks. So I'd like to just say that Stephen Quinn is the one with all of the colorful descriptions of human bodies. Guys, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me. It's always such a pleasure to see you both. And congratulations, the show.

Okay, well, let's do it. Let's say it again. Let's be professional podcasters. Okay. Because I even did it out of order last time. High school, a very good television series premieres on Amazon's freebie October 14th, right? Mm-hmm. Yep.

And Tegan and Sarah's 10th album, Cry Baby, comes out a week later on October 21st. What a month. What a month. I'm really excited. What a month for you guys.