The Watch - Is ‘Lanterns’ the End of Superhero TV? Plus, ‘Furious’ E5 and the ‘Lioness’ S3 Premiere.

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

Chris and Andy preview the forthcoming DCU show ‘Lanterns.’ They talk about the long road to getting the show made and how fewer and fewer superhero TV shows are actually making it to our screens (4:07). Along the way, they react to the first two episodes of ‘The Shards,’ an FX adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis's novel (25:48). Later they discuss ‘Furious’ Episode 5 (44:17), then wrap the show with The Watch: After Dark (a.k.a. CR’s thoughts on ‘Lioness’ Season 3) (01:00:45). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he wants his body to do it, not a pill. It's Andy Greenwald.

Did you get to that scene in Lioness? I bet you did. I bet you did. I did. What's up, everybody? It is Thursday in the United States of America. I'm in a good mood. this last part of the week.

Great. Grinded a few out this week, but there's nothing like coming home. I think you are as exultant today as the New York Times is. About a week when the left is in disarray. The left, the collapse. So much concern. We're reading different periodicals these days, I think. Well, I read the New York Times, but only the version that exists in Linus,

which I cannot wait to talk to you about. Honestly, dude, it's not that much different. Today, Andy, as we alluded to, we will talk about broadly in the first episode of Linus because I think Andy may have grabbed the parachute a little. What do they call it in like in MMA in the Octagon when they're out?

I think you had somebody X-fill you. Let's just put it that way. I dreamed of getting black bagged eight minutes in. It would have been a relief. We're also going to talk a little bit about the shards. We're going to talk more extensively about Furious up through episode five. Episode six comes out on Sunday.

As does lanterns. Yeah, exciting. And we have a little bit of a prelude to that to that show because there's a lot of interesting reporting going on. I know we've been banging the superhero drum this week, this last week and a half, but a lot of interesting reporting going on around the state of superhero television, which is sort of our Ballywick here. I thought when you said a prelude to lanterns,

you were going to talk about the glories of Alan Scott, the Golden Age Green Lantern, who carried a little Green Lantern. I got to admit to you, I just know nothing about the Green Lantern. I'm just dazzling you right now. And then I had a couple other news things for you. I noticed that you have your trusty task water bottle You've got a green tea out

Yeah this is the Juliet Lippman School of beverages If I remember correctly Are you nursing something here? A grudge? A hangover? No, no, I just wanted I mean, you know, I did have a cocktail yesterday And you never know where that's going to go with me

But I don't think that's exciting top of the pod content We could save it for what's the opposite of after dark? Harsh light Happy hour That new segment Yeah. No, no, no, I just was like, you know what, I've had my coffee. Maybe we'll have a gentler caffeine during this party portion of the pot. I like it's clean energy. Green tea is clean energy. Don't tell Taylor Sheridan in that. He'll ban that shit. Can I just do one thing, though? Because I feel like we're doing a weird thing with the show, the agency that we're big fans of, where we are kind of concern trolling and, like, engaging with some sort of speculative gossip about the future of the show based on like whispers and talk around town. But I want to, I want to say two things. One, we don't actually know anything. And I will say that based on my very little knowing things...

Did you go a brushback pitch from somebody? No, the opposite. Okay. I'm brushing my own pitch back. Okay. Is that what they say? I better have more green tea. I'll just do the wind horse fingers.

I think that it's looking good from what I understand. I think that the agency coming back is looking good. Should we start doing this more? Yes, because here's the other thing. I would love a brushback pitch. I am actually going to say to whatever camera, does the agency have a press team? Are there publicists working for...

They do. the show. They do. You're a refusal to engage with the great corporation that David Ellison has built. That's up to you. That was before his op-ed. I happen to know several people working in the Paramount Press Shop and they're lovely.

You know what they do? They represent both sides. They're sending me Lion is season five. Anyway, I'm just saying, I do feel like there's a small subsection of the fandom of this podcast who also like the agency who are like, my head's

spinning, listening to these guys. Yeah. I think it's going to be fine. I think it sounds like it's pointed in the right direction. Yeah. Okay. Yes. That's good.

What's not pointed in the right direction is the great experiment where we're going to make a bunch of superhero television to buttress the superhero blockbusters that we're going to be populating our movie theaters. You know, basically at the start of the streaming wars and as Disney threw its hat in the ring and as HBO Max started to take on more Warner Brothers and DC properties, we had this grand plan laid out for us that Lucasfilm and Marvel, I wouldn't classify Lucasfilm as superhero, but broadly speaking, genre. Genre IP was going to flit between small screen and big.

And this obviously also emerged at a time where I think Hollywood was reconsidering its relationship to the theatrical experience in general because of COVID. And assuming trend lines were fixed, right? Yes. If the theatrical experience was clearly diminishing, or at least returns were diminishing, then they needed to find that income elsewhere or to engage with audiences elsewhere where they are.

And now we arrive at this moment where a superhero movie, a comic book film, is likely to be one of the biggest... That's just been released is likely to be one of the biggest films, not of the year of all time in Spider-Man, brand-new day. That movie probably has increased enthusiasm for Avengers Dune's Day, I would say. Maybe.

Event superhero movies, I think, still can be, like, incredible ticket drivers. And on the flip of that, when you look around on your streaming services that you were told you had to have, if you wanted to keep current with Phase 6 or the expanding DCU or whatever, it's crickets. It's dust. dust dust bunnies is that what those things? What are the ones

Oh tumbleweeds It's tumbleweeds Real man of the people here Just I've seen Big Lebowski I know it's tumbleweeds And I just think This is such a fascinating moment

So Lanterns is coming On Sunday From a troika Of incredible writers From Damon Lindelof Chris Mundy and Tom King It also has the sort of umbrella kind of seal of approval

from James Gunn and Peter Saffrin who run DC for Warner Brothers. There's an amazing story, kind of told in a couple of different outlets this week, about the genesis of this project and how long Greg Berlanti had been working on it and how many different iterations

has gone through over the last like seven years to get it to screen. But when you look at this reporting, it's also talking about how they're pruning a lot of the stuff that... The other stuff. We were told was coming. So, for instance,

D.C. is no longer making the Waller show, which would have been the Viola Davis-led series Peacemaker, No, Suicide Squad spinoff, kind of. They are no longer making Paradise Lost, which was supposed to be a Wonder Woman prequel series. Had you been following that? Was that something you were aware prior to this announcement? They are making a Skylar-Azano-led Jimmy Olson show,

which I think is a very smart execution of an idea where the American Vandal guys are making a... what I heard. Kind of docu-drama comedy about Jimmy. With guerrilla fraud or something? Whatever's in it. It's just,

it's like an incredibly smart use of the style of filmmaking that those American vandal guys do. On the Marvel side of things, there's Vision Quest, the Paul Bettney show, which is, you know, seemingly been in the works or done

or in motion for quite some time, at least since the end of Wanda Vision. Right. And then if you look around at various websites, it's like, kind of sounds like Marvel TV is going to turn into YA and animated. With some exceptions. You know, like there, obviously there was a Punisher special earlier in the year.

You know, I'm sure that there will be some other live action stuff in the, eventually. But things like Champions and Strange Academy, which champions is kind of like a young Avengers. sort of thing. Gone. I think. Well, I mean,

champion, don't make me do this. Don't make me do this. Have another sip of green tea. I mean, get involved in this podcast. Okay, well, Young Avengers

was the Young Avengers, but Champions was a off-rebooted, kind of barely remembered LA-based super team. So I think that would be like us, Nithiarama, and, you know,

other like sort of left-leaning council members, you know, and we tackle the unhoused issue here. That's what we do. Yeah, public transportation. They have animated stuff like Marvel Zombies, X-Men 97, the second season. Friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, which is quite good. I personally think it would be cool if they did more Werewolf by Night-style experiments

or like three-episode Sherlock-esque special event seasons. Say what else you want. What else do I want? You want another Punisher kills an entire borough of New York special. I can neither confirm or deny that that happened. Did the Paramount publicists send you that too? They just had it worked up with Claude?

There's not a tremendous amount that I saw in the Lucasfilm chamber in terms of being developed for TV. It's like Ashoka, Asoka, Season 2. I'm not sure if the Mandalorian movie killed Mando the show. Maybe. I mean, I think,

do you know what the saddest site was, honestly? someone that I really love, respect, and always check for in his projects, was like Ewan McGregor on the red carpet for the dinosaur movie. End of Oak Street. Quite good. Asking if there's going to be an Obi-1 season two,

and he's just like, oh, Hayden and I are so ready for it. There's got to be more adventures. I'm like, come on, man. He's the guy of 10 years until I'm Alec and this his age. Right. So we have 10 years to make this. So presumably. So the idea is that he wasn't just making sourdough

that whole time and aging in the harsh sun, which skincare now makes me understand that transition faster. You know what I mean? That's more likely. Yeah. I wonder whether or not, to make this more broadly interesting to people

rather than just like art is champions going to be, you know, as good as we hope. I do wonder whether or not this move away from developing your own IP and creating like TV-based, uh, share universes and stuff, regardless of whether you enjoyed it in 2022 or not.

Right. Whether this signals like a broader move by a lot of these streamers turn into open, not open source platforms, but like, both buyers and dealers. There are a lot of industry trends to pick up here. Yeah. A little housekeeping. Vision Quest is premiering in October before Doom's 8 is shot. You know that it features the return of James Spader as Ultron?

I didn't. How psyched are you? I mean, live reaction. I know there was a big reaction that went viral when you were told that Jalen Brown was now a Sixer. Spader is back. Go, Kai, get ready. Frame it up. Has James Spader been in a film since Ultron? Do you think intentionally, do you think he's been blacklisted or was he like, it can't get any better than this? Well, he was on blacklist. Did you, did you mean to have

that fun? Of course I did. What are some of the big trends? So Vision Quest is happening, and I do think that you can see in just anecdotally, like, when Marvel is still trying the last gasp of being like, you know, to really, you know, to really really appreciate Doomsday. You have to watch both seasons of Loki and Agatha all along and Vision Quest and people are like, respectfully, no, I don't. That is definitely the end of something. I think that you can, in terms of the, before we get into the bigger trends, like, we didn't even get a chance to talk about it because I think news broke when we were recording one of our advanced pods for last week. But Disney canceled Wonder Man season two. And I find that whole thing

genuinely. Despite Yaya Abdul Mateens. Emmy nomination. I find that whole thing infuriating, to be honest. Like, both because the first season was wonderful and organically, creatively good, and had a wonderful response

and actually had some industry response, which used to be something that people used as a benchmark for continued success. But I also found it really, really dispiriting just in terms of how cavalier these massive corporations and tech overlords are about creative work because this is a show, as we talked about, was in development for years, that

they began shooting it as the strike hit in 2023. Somehow it survived, and they finished it, and they finally aired it in just a dump in January. And then I have no knowledge of the inside of that building, but it does seem like at least some of the higher-ups at Marvel and Disney were kind of shocked that people really liked it. Like, they didn't understand what they had. So, What happened subsequently was kind of a scramble to be like, no, no, we're very proud of this and we're going to make more of it. And they got a renewal. They didn't get a renewal in a normal renewal window, but they got one. And you have Sir Ben Kingsley and you have Yaya Abdul Mateen thrilled to come back.

You have the creator, Andrew Guest, who came on the show to talk about it, you know, writing a fantastic season two script and gathering a room and getting ready to go. And then they decide to cancel it for financial reasons. It's just like you could have done that in January. It's just mismanagement. And even if it does align with what you're speaking to, which is this larger trend, that they aren't going to be doing shows like this anymore, do you fucking know how hard it is to get a show that is good?

Just to get a show that is good. I don't think they care about shows that are good. I think that they do not on a fundamental level, especially if it does not align with... I think it's a nice byproduct of shows if they're good and loved. Now, you could also... Specifically, Wanda Vision, for instance, was one that I think was taking quite seriously, you know, right?

Right, but the first and last shows that they made, basically, we're taking quite seriously. And in between, for various reasons, very, very far away from the North Star of what any healthy creative process should be, which is, this script is undeniably good. Or this is a lightning and a bottle moment, and we must try our best to bring it to the screen.

Instead, it has been a bunch of years of really backassword kind of development of let's raid the library for potential IP exploitation, sorry, exploration. or let's just fill the chamber with all of the story spackle that doesn't fit into the movie catalog because oh my god, Sam Jackson will do a TV show. Sure, let's do a TV show for him too. It's backward thinking up and down. If this had been the plan from the beginning, which is if we have a wonderful idea for a TV show, we will consider it, but we are not committed to making

10 of these and three of these every year, the three of these being movies, I guess. There's going to be these further reading assignments for these phases that we've sort of instituted and all that stuff for Marvel. Part of that is the trend over the last decade or so to float your publicly traded company and movie studio based on potential future earnings. So you announce that there's an Avengers movie coming in 2027 and then you just point everything towards that. And then the bill comes due later, which is also, by the way, how I managed to come in second in the Lakers bidding yesterday. I just moved a lot of stuff around and got really, really creative with it. That's what Mark Walter was doing. Listen, don't knock the hustle.

Which trend do we want to go into next? Well, I wanted to talk about the idea that even Disney is talking about being a place where you can subscribe to other channels through Disney Plus. And all of these services now are going to be in a race to be like, we want to be the place that you spend $40 a month. Yes. So, like right now, for instance, I think if you have Netflix and let's say you have Netflix and like you have Netflix and like you. you've got Netflix for your mom or something like that. Yeah. Because you're like, just don't worry about it.

I'll, I'll pay it and you can just sign in. I think you have to get like the extended family tier or whatever it is. And if you wanted an HD 4K or if you wanted like 4K streaming, I think it's close to $37 a month or something like that. Like it's getting up there. This is what we had always kind of talked about was that these things are going to get introduced and it's going to be like $9.99 a month to watch everything on Disney. I believe Disney launched at $4.99.

Yeah. And so now incrementally over and over again. Which is also how crack launched as well. But you will hit a breaking point for people. And they will start going around and being like, well, I need Amazon Prime because I have Prime or whatever. But I don't need this and I don't need that. The other thing that they do that is just normal is the churn. Like I only need it to watch this show and then I cancel it.

But they're making it so that that is not as easy to do. Not only contractually or whatever, but they're also making it so that if you go and and you use Disney or Amazon or Hulu or whatever it is to also watch live sports or also watch stars because you want to watch Outland or something like that, it starts to become more of a cable box than it is like a closed loop. You have to come to Disney Plus because we have all of your Marvel stuff

and more because we're constantly making new Marvel stuff. Yeah, I think that there was a really interesting, interesting conversation on Matt Bellany's podcast, The Town, last week, with a Wells Fargo analyst named Stephen Cahill who was like, I think Disney should get out of the streaming business. And they are pot committed at this point. But I thought it was an interesting argument because what he did, not only did he say, like, think about how much money they would make by just being like Sony still and just selling their stuff to the highest bidder and so that Marvel movies would be on Netflix or wherever, and they could be a content creator, which is what they are good at and

what they historically have been good at. But the other point, point that was interesting was that a lot of these streaming services were launched in an era where Netflix's dominance was so, not just assumed, but such an existential threat to their companies that they felt like they needed to retreat, pull back their troops, and shore up their defenses. And the reality is that not that Netflix is fallible, but that there is an ecosystem that can support multiple streaming services. And so there's a different, there's a different, there's a different thought process that needs to go into cost and spending versus return. And the point that he made, which we don't talk about enough, because usually when we talk

about Netflix, we're talking about the Netflix shows we like, like adolescents. We aren't really talking about the broader shift that has saved, not saved the service, but transformed the service. And it's, yes, they still spend millions, billions of dollars producing content every year. But a lot of what they produce is the floor is lava and is it cake. And they do that in many countries. And that costs a lot. You should fire on Netflix because what they produce is a ton of true crime.

And what they produces a ton of reality. And what they produces a ton of live events. Like, we can do the gourmet cheeseburger thing if we want. But like, they are churning stuff out at a level that, like, you would be shot at. And the insane thing about the commitment to streaming that Disney made that I'm sure some people were on the rampart screaming about. but was that Disney's brand is imagination and creativity and increasingly spectacle. Right?

It's not just the Marvel movies that cost upwards of $200 million to make and to put in theaters. Pixar movies cost close to that too just for their, because of their insanely grinding creative process and then actually animating the things. So to go into the TV market and say, the things you get on the big screen, you're also going to get on TV,

means you're also spending $200 million for an eight-episode television show, which is insane, especially if that television show is secret invasion. So it is a dangerous arms race that they were not prepared to say in. It's the first time I've seen the flywheel break. The flywheel is the legendary Walt Disney idea of like, you know, basically the imaginers come up with a cool set of characters and story, and then it becomes a movie, and then it becomes a ride, and people get to buy merchandise for it, and like you keep going around. And like, in this era, the streaming service should make sense, because Disney used to

control the market on their own home video releases in a way that was really Marlowe Stanfield-esque. That's Bob JPEC's music. That was his shit. But that was like, we will take Cinderella off the shelves in 60 days and then it won't be back for years. So buy it now if you want to have this magical experience in your home.

And now it's like, that shit is just all in the stream service. And I think that they encountered something where they had to keep feeding it, and now it's because they fed it, it's not as special. Well, that's true. I mean, I think you're approaching it

from like a scarcity standpoint, which is true. It's also true in terms of diminishing creative returns. For sure. Which also then hurt their bread and butter business, which is theatrical release. So I think all of this is to say

this is a logical business retrenchment. Like the cartoons work, They service a different audience, and they also provide a kind of collective enthusiasm simmer for other projects. Like, I'm sure they have data that would support this claim, but like the X-Men 97 cartoon has triggered some nostalgia and some excitement in the same cohort that needs to go to the multiplex to see the X-Men movie in a year and a half. How long have you been recording for, by the way? 25 minutes. And you have not apologized for your misinformation about Charles Melton. Okay, I didn't know we were going to do this right now.

This is how you get me. This is, I believe, the same interviewing technique. Martin Bashir used. Charles Martin turned down X-Men and you say what? I say it's just a shame. First of all, I mourn any time. You are so certain. I mourn any time that two sides can't find common ground.

Okay, that is my number one priority in this business and in life. I guess what I want to know, Chris, is who blinked? You know? Did Disney blink at the thought of having a generationally talented and good looking guy covered in blue fur for a decade? Or did our guy Charlie Melton say, you know what? There are better things to do than sit in a chair or have like ping pong balls all over me for nine years. For nine years.

I mean, it is also, thanks for giving me a chance to talk about this, really. I appreciate it. it's a weird part I mean, Beast Beast is a weird part He's got an arc He has many, you know They've been turning him villainous more recently

How do you feel about that? I didn't know that Yeah Do you ever watch the show The Beast in me? With Claire Daines That's not the one I'm talking about It's a Disney cartoon No

He yeah so From first of all the mantle From Kelsey Grammer To Nicholas Holtz To question mark it's a bummer I didn't mean to interrupt you what we were saying I'm now I'm on a topic I care more about

I guess we were just saying that there's other than what let's go through it Wanda Vision Loki season 1 Agatha maybe and some of the specials that you're talking about and Wonder Man

it's not like a legacy necessarily to be that proud of I do think I do wonder if this will also affect, there's rumors that it will, it seemed to me that they found something smart with the Daredevil series in that it is an ongoing television show. Yeah, well, this is where I wanted to go with this, because, you know, I've been,

I'm very interested in the ongoing debate of movies versus TV and, like, what kind of holds the consciousness captive, holds, like, the mass is captive in terms of, like, interest, in terms of not only following along with whatever industry and being up on, like, movies or shows that are coming out, But just where people seem to be deriving the most satisfaction. And I think unquestionably it seems to be, in a way, it seems to be movies this year, right? Like people seem to be going in droves, enjoying monocultural events, and then talking about them for weeks on end.

I believe this tracks with your year being on the big picture. I think also there is something weird going on where I think there is a little bit of a TV's lost its way kind of vibe. happening? I do think that this has been a year where I've been like more surprised when a show is just good, you know? Yeah, yeah. I'm like almost like, oh, a good TV show. Well, how about that?

We can still do that, huh? Because we've seen so many things that I feel like are like, holy shit, you guys put this up on a surface? Like, you guys thought this was done? Like, yes, I agree with that. I mean, I think that, again, there's like, if we're going macro, I think there's, the development of things, not everything and not at every place, but development is in a very weird place. Yes. And all you have to do to look at that is look at exactly, like some things

that made it to air and some things that get canceled or don't even make it that far. Well, honestly, I agree with that. We can even, we can throw an idea in here right now. Okay. Which is the Shards, which I have not checked out yet, but you've watched the first two. A fascinating story where it was in development at HBO for a long time, right? after Brett Easton Ellis released it both as an audio experience and then as a novel. A novel, yeah, and I believe Luca Guadigino was attached. I do know that Easton Ellis was being sort of prioritized as like the creative fulcrum of the show and that he had written the first couple of scripts, but then that relationship seemed to have fallen apart

according to Hollywood Reporter and other places you can read. And the last 40 years of Brett Ellis is like a writer I really like, but he has had a bumpy relationship with adaptation and with Hollywood. And this is a, how would you describe the novel? You like actually... Yeah, it is a really interesting exercise in kind of meta-autofiction in which it is at once a memoir

of the main character, Brett Ellis, who is also the main character of Lunar Park and is basically the main character of most of his books, sometimes under different names. Living in Los Angeles, going to high school in 1981. In the Valley, right?

Yeah, and going to, yes, and being in a very rich, fast-moving world going to Buckley school with his friends, glamorous friends, and children of Hollywood, and writing less than zero by night, and in a love triangle and sort of exploring his own nascent sexuality and talking about going to school on the East Coast, which he would then do, and that would become rules of attraction. But in the shards, all of this is set to the backdrop of a particularly vicious serial killer in an arrow in which serial killers were quite a thing. So the Shards as a TV show gets picked up the rights, or I don't know how it gets transferred,

but Ryan Murphy to the rescue comes in, picks up this project that had fallen apart at HBO, brings it over to FX where he has a longstanding deal and where he's returned to Disney from Netflix, correct? And shoots the first two Shards episodes as Ellis had written them essentially, right? More or less. From what we understand of this, yes. I mean, the first two scripts of the series are credited to Bred Easton Ellis and Ryan Murphy. Okay.

And mostly track with the novel. And Murphy directs? Murphy directs the first two, yeah. And then apparently after the second episode, it becomes a completely different show. Yes. Now, we are talking about this at a time when I believe the third episode

and fourth episode maybe just went up. I'm not caught up through them. I'm just basing this off of reviews that were like, it starts good, then it goes crazy. I mean, and to be honest, and I guess we probably should do a weird loop-to-loop where we come back to previewing lanterns or why it isn't part of this. We're just for just two guys talking. Come on. I find this fascinating.

And it may look like I don't have my hands on the steering wheel. But? I do. I do. It's just like I'm right here. I thought this was a Waymo and you were just sitting in the front seat. We all know. Kaya has the real controls.

me describing to a Waymo what happens in the second half for the first episode of Lioness. Honestly, Waymo would probably see a lot of himself in that episode. Well, God, don't. Don't see, now you keep teasing me with tangents. I'm trying to stay focused today.

I find the Shards thing totally fascinating for two reasons. One, purely personal reason. Like I said last week, I like Freddie Sinellis books. I like this era of Los Angeles storytelling and it is absolutely a beautiful looking production. And I think Ryan Murphy,

we've litigated my feelings about him as a creator and artist, but he is an absolutely talented director. And when he locks into something, when it vibes with his own aesthetic, maybe this is true of any director, but I feel very strongly about saying this about him, it can elevate. And I think his, you know,

his terroir, if you will, is kind of trashy Los Angeles in all of its forms high to low. And so this is perfect for him and he has a cast of beautiful people and needle drops are great and there's some really cool framing shots and there's, you know,

angular minimalist food on big white plates and everybody's drinking and doing cocaine. And so this seems like fun. Sure. The reason I'm interested in is exactly what you're saying because you... Okay, so what are you... The question that needs to be...

be asked at some point, but rarely gets asked when there are either network or company mandates or the whims and desires of a superpowered producer or creator, in this case of Ryan Murphy, is, but why are we making this? And I want to be clear, I'm not doing a thing that I think people like, who needed this. I'm not saying that, although I think there's a reason to say that in some cases. But I'm not saying that here, I'm saying specifically at the heart of this, why are we making this? And particularly with period pieces, I think that question is worth asking because you can do it a multitude of ways, but I would reduce it to broadly two. One is we are point of view adrift with the characters, not in period, but in their presence.

And we are attuned to the universality of their humanity, no matter what the era is and whether they have cell phones or not. And so you're living inside of the moment, and that's a beautiful thing. And so, you know, you could say, you could take Mad Men or something as an example of that. Obviously, it has something to say about who we are now. it's being made now, but the entire show isn't about wink, wink. We actually had to call people on the landline. You know what I mean? The other way to do it would be to take a period of time that is deeply understood

culturally, emotionally, politically as one thing, and comment on it and hold it up as a mirror or as a cracked window or whatever you want to do. The issue with the shards is through the first two episodes is that it is very, very, very excited to transpose the book to the screen. Sure. Because Brady-Stenless wrote the first two episodes. Because Brady-Snellis wrote the first two episodes. And you can tell that Ryan Murphy,

who has a reputation for having very strong points of view, is clearly a big fan, which is actually sort of sweet. So he's bringing Ellis's 80s to life better than maybe anyone else ever has. But without, I would say, being a teenager in college is hard universality of rules of attraction and certainly without the acerbic looking backwards wit of Mary Heron's American Psycho. So it is totally flat with voiceover in which the main character, Brett, says things like, back then we didn't have social media, we had serial killers.

So it feels like an incredible pantomime show. You have to choose. You have to choose. I think we're doing okay. Do you know what I mean? And so I found that kind of frustrating, even though the second episode, I think, is even stronger in the first because, and by the way, I have to call you to account for this too. This is not just a one-way thing. As a decades-long Wes Bentley completist, he's doing good work here. He's doing

very good work here in the course of one modernist minimalist lunch with Brett. West smokes, I believe, 13 cigarettes and has five different forms of alcoholic beverages. And I don't know if it's intentional or just sloppy editing. But I believe he has white wine, red wine, a martini, a glass of brown liquor. And I want to say a cocktail, another, a fruited cocktail of some kind? I would go a martini, white, red, brown liquor if I wanted to put myself in a body bag anyway. You could still get after it. Look at you.

I mean, that's an astonishing run. Yeah, but so, and this is all over course of lunch where there's just like three cubes of salmon and he's like, this is the only restaurant in LA that serves tartar bread, you'll love it. So have I sold you on the show yet? I mean, it sounds entertaining. But all of this is to say, it is just the slavishly devoted thing that is kind of nothing all at once. And so I'm really interested, though, to hear this reporting that after two, it goes fucking

full Gaga-Murphyverse and apparently is built to run multiple seasons, which is in no way what this project would seem to be. But I don't even want to say what... Murphy's going to make this into the cocaine 80s, FX's Euphoria. Yeah. If it gets there. If it gets there.

Just like American crime story and American horror story. Yeah. If it gets there, that's actually not a bad play. But it's kind of in a weird way, now we're all over the place. But it's having this conversation makes me think a little bit of what we were saying last week about how FX gave adults a duo, a mulligan, a do-over on the pilot. But in a way, you almost wish Ryan Murphy was making his own American Breddy Sinellis story show where he could just make it up as he went along.

Sure. But I don't know. Well, Brady Sinellis is no longer on the project. He's very vocally. Like, I break up with TV now. I think he's very not vocal. He said that and then he hasn't said a single thing else. The reason why I brought the shards up, the reason why I brought that development story up

is the same reason why we're talking about these superhero shows because they often are serving a lot of different purposes and they have a lot of different masters. There is the larger thing that the O-Torin-Chief at one of these labels wants to have Feigey, James Gunn, there's a super

story that they want to tell, whether it's phased, whether it's thematic. They have an idea of what they want to do. Then there are players from networks, from production companies, characters who have become indelible, those stars start to

have a little bit more say on what Hulk would or wouldn't do or whatever. The fascinating thing about this lanterns show is that Greg Burlanti, who had basically been off on his own with 20 shows on the air. The hardest working man at Warner Brothers. At the C.W. Right? Well, he worked for Warner Brothers. All of his shows were on, many of his shows were on the CW.

And was running essentially the Aeroverse, which was like his version of the DCTV universe and had, I think, six or seven shows, eight shows on the air at any given moment, would do these massive crossover. Yeah, he did Crisis of Infinite Earths on CW shows. Yes. And had been working on Greenland, a lantern show for a while.

And in this article that I believe it's Leslie Goldberg on Ancler wrote, which is just talking about the production or the development process of this story, he talks about the clashes that he was having with Warner Brothers Television, where it came to, you know, they were looking for something, something more grounded. They wanted a more grounded treatment of this. Like, I think they were

looking to make something sounds like closer to Watchmen or something closer to a true detective. And he was just like, that's not what I'm interested in when it comes to this story. Please excuse me, there's a Scooby-Doo live action reboot. Well, and then they found, they got Damon Lindeloff, who did Watchman, and they got, you know, Chris Mundy, who made Ozark. And they've made this new Lantern show, which I can't wait to watch. but is a fascinating, long, kind of winding way to get to our screens on Sunday night. But I think the thing that you can hopefully point to

for the shows that succeed is an early, early answer to the question, not who are you making this for? Why are we making this? What is someone, generally the showrunner or creator or lead writer or whatever you want to call it? What is that person passionate about? and can we then get other people on board

and all row in the same direction to make the best version of it? You can't do it solely because you want to tick the box of having that character represented or you want to try to push into television or have complimentary, whatever. The reporting that I've read

suggests that the first person to sort of raise his hand and say this is what I want to do with this was Tom King, who is in many ways the least known of that troika, but is a brilliant comic book writer and also a former CIA analyst.

and I feel like that would make him a really good guest for us at some point in the future if it won't all be redacted. But I think I'm as interested in his point of view on the show as I am in the gentle corporate nudgings that put three very strong-minded creators together and by all accounts create a very, very happy, additive, expansive creative process.

Now, I think we and audiences will be able to tell that I haven't watched the pilot yet, but I'm very excited to. But ultimately, it comes down to the fact that even though at some point during this process, James Gunn and Peter Safran took over, at some point in the process, they checked in on this, and whatever was said back to them or whatever scripts they read, past muster, with Gunn's stated intention to have a diverse slate of different types of stories, I say reported intention because, I mean, he has said that publicly,

but also kind of until this moment, we haven't really seen the proof. of it because we've just seen Superman and the very gun-pilled supergirl. Yes. And since he has taken over, there's obviously been the Paramount Warner Brothers merger, which is now in sort of limbo. But it's incredibly difficult to pull something that's like a multi-year storytelling project off when you've also got the winds of change blowing in the industry itself. Whether it's mergers and acquisitions or whether it's technological developments. But so, you know, for the same reasons that I thought it was interesting to watch the Rinaldo Marcus Green directed Punisher one shot and then see Bernthal do a different version of the same character in Spider-Man, seeing Nathan Philean do Guy Gardner in this series, which I would imagine. This is not reported. No one has said this to me. But I imagine that when Tom King was like, yeah, I'll do this as a grounded version, at no point was he like, and Guy Gardner will also. show up played by known comedic charismatic presence uh nathan jillian who's that's james guns dude yeah so here we

so here we are but like look if the end game of all of this despite like some personal like some things that i'm pissed off about getting canceled or i wish we had if the end result of this after many many many many wasted millions is a more streamlined process in which only the things that really have that spark or fire make it to air i think it's a win Because best case scenario here, you get, now, you and I didn't love Penguin, but I think we were in the minority. And I think the majority of HBO Max subscribers felt that the penguin, Colin Farrell, was a worthwhile inheritor of the Sunday. Like, this is HBO. We understand why this is HBO. So there's a reason for this.

And I think similarly, Lanterns looks to be in that category as well, which is great. But crazily enough, no sense. no second season of the penguin yet. But again, I think that's another good, for me, that's a good outcome. And I'm not saying because I didn't like the show. And I'm certainly not saying it because I don't want the talented people who worked on it to work. I'm saying that if they successfully told a story about this character that worked, I think, it's like with the Mayor of Easttown thing.

We would fucking love more seasons of that show. But my sense is the people involved at the time, we're like, but why? Why would we mess with something that worked? You know, it worked. We did it. We told a story, and we don't say enough of that. Separate and apart from the fact that, I mean, I don't know if Colin Farrell wants to put that makeup on again.

I don't know either, yeah. But look, and by the way, just, you know, inside or behind, not even inside baseball, like up where Brad Pitt sat in the Moneyball movies when he wouldn't actually watch the game. I say this as someone. He sat in the gym, actually. Well, he didn't sit. He was working. He was lifting.

Yeah. Well, that's what I was getting at. Oh, okay. But that's down. Like you were like up in the season. where he's sitting like he's in the suites. That's not what he was doing. No.

Just like you. Personal best, yeah. I mean, I say this as someone who is actively and is and has been working on a Warner Brothers HBO show that has IP. And I will say that that's not my project and not my show. But like, this is a valid and living conversation. Yeah, yeah. Of like, what is the best reason to be doing this? I think what I'm most fascinated by all of this,

and we can get on to Furious now, but what fascinates me most? And maybe it's a good segue, because I think one of the things I like about Furious so much is it's just a very, very well-thought-out TV show. Such a good TV show. Is we made a great grand swing of this kind of hybrid theatrical,

television storytelling model, both in terms of limited series, anthology series, bringing big screen genre to the small screen, even though many people don't make that distinction anymore, but whether it's rings of power

or take your pick of any of the super expensive sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last couple of years, or these very, very highly valuable properties like Star Wars, Marvel, and DC. And sometimes in the back of my head,

I'm like, maybe Greg Bellanti had it right. Because he just made a TV show. Yeah, because he just knew how to, like, he knew that there was a one-to-one relationship between flipping through an issue of a comic book and getting through a 42-minute television show. Yeah. That had some commercials.

And that there was a transactional nature and a fun, like, cool, my story is on kind of relationship people could have. And it didn't have this like, fuck, I have to watch the post-credit sequence of Ironheart to understand what's happening on this movie coming out in two years, maybe. Because of Mephisto. That's right. That's right. I was trying to tell everybody, but, you know, everybody was a boy who cried wolf and then he showed up. Yeah.

Then he fucking showed up when he was the devil. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back and we'll do Furious. So we're going to be talking about Furious through episode five, episode six will be airing on Sunday. We haven't spoken about it. I think you would watch two when we first talked. I'd watched all the ones that were up.

Okay, so you watched the first three. I'd watch the first three. and there's a lot of different places we can go with this but the one thing I would ask is you know as I've been watching this series I've been thinking about other crime shows that I've loved over the last several years and I was reminded of the night of which is another series that I think is as interested

in the consequences of crime and the reasons behind a crime and also the total cost across a community of people. Yes. And also had to at some point in its run, like solve it. You know, it has to, you know, you can't just have, here's six episodes of a mystery that just befuddled people, you know. Now, Furious is much different.

We, it's not a whodunit. We know who's doing it. It's a matter of whether or not, like, what this person is doing is, Is she going to get caught doing it, essentially? There's also a mystery within her own. She's also trying to solve a mystery, the criminal. Yes, yes, especially since her memory is spotty. Yeah.

Because, you know, so I wanted to ask you whether or not you detected, in the same way that I detected with the night of, with true detective, with various other great crime shows from this era, the turn. The turn towards now we actually, rather than world building and, like alluding to things and really doing character moments that we're turning towards a conspiracy that's being unraveled or what happened? And do you necessarily think that's a flaw or not?

I think it's a great question. I think my answer is no. And I think my answer is no because in the spirit of all really good, really exciting and compelling genre television or genre at its best, what we're seeing is the work of a creator who is using a familiar. familiar rhythm to create an original melody and played over top of it. The thing about the show that I find dazzling is that it has a, like just being on Hulu, just the way that it presented itself, like you can, the log line, it's going to attract

eyeballs, I think, because true crime, sex crimes, like these things are the bread and butter. You were saying of Netflix. Like, these are, this is a very tried and true investigative stuff. Like, this is very tried and true television to get an audience. Knowing that you have that buy-in already, what Liz Maryweather has done with the show, I find so thrilling because every single scene a choice is made in it, whether it's like dialogue, whether it's casting, whether it's stakes that surprises me. Every scene is alive.

where I think that generally when things make that turn or we notice the turn being made, what we're feeling is the feeling of, well, this driverless car at least knows the route. Do you know what I mean? This car has a fucking driver, and the driver has a personality, and the driver continues to do things that go against our expectations, such as, I mean, you could throw up, you could name half a dozen, throw them on the table, and we could talk about them. The fact that, for example, the Alden character and the fact that Catherine is a fairly attentive and caring professional nurse for this guy with this particular set of circumstances and relationship to her, I think that's introduced in episode three. Yeah.

Like, that's a no-no from executives and from development. Campbell Scott popping up in episode four. The great, and it's not just the character of the Campbell Scott, now that we're talking about through episode five, we could talk about that. So in episode four, Hope Davis's character who we'd seen before arrives with a lawyer, who I don't believe we'd seen before. And it's played by a, you know, Gen X hero Campbell Scott. So instantly, I'm more interested, you know, the casting, whether it's him or the actor, I'll call it up in a second, who plays Ed George.

I'm like, I think that's his name, the ASAC at the FBI. The person who had been working with Nora earlier in the decade on the case. And the number one example is Nora herself, a Quincy, Quincy Bernstein's performance, like, these are all really interesting performers that make you pay attention and are doing things that we're not expecting in every moment. But yeah, you bring him in and you see that she's doing something, Catherine's doing something, but you don't realize she's hunting him and that he's going to be the focus of it. Like, there are these little bits of subterfuge that feel thrilling within the larger framework of the story. I would say the same thing for

almost everything Alice does in relation to her abusers, played by Jake Lacey. Marshall. It's going to some really, really, really. bold and very, I would say, risky from a storytelling perspective places with it, and going there unapologetically with no breaks. Yeah, I think it's knowing, especially the sequence in which she essentially sets him up, right, is very knowingly depicted in the same fashion that Catherine's murders are depicted, where she is clocking this person, not monitoring their behavior, figuring out in advance what different things could happen and is setting them up. I mean, there are many ways in which, and I think we are not the ideal interlocutors of the idea that this is a very, very, both

feminist and very female-created television show, but one of the things that the show is absolutely committed to that I love is making us as viewers, and as male viewers, understand that when Scoot McNary's character, Danny Kelly, or what's his name, Rob Yang's character, Choi, you've sort of the hapless FBI agent. When they walk into rooms, they have very, very little to think about other than their job and maybe what they're getting for lunch.

When the women walk into rooms, instantly they have to think about six dozen things. Sure. Everything from physical proximity to past history to how they're being perceived and presented. Yeah, like everything with Catherine

or with Alice up until that martial moment, there's all this speculation. Like, why does she have these bruises? Yes. because she's gotten, like, willingly assaulted by, like, a lover that she met on Internet application. Yeah, and everything. Internet application.

She's really finger on the pulse there. Can I join the CIA, Tom King? I've got the verbiage. I've got a number of applications on my phone in addition to my CIA application. Yeah, I just think that that is such a subtle thing. And, again, like, that is folded into Emmy Rossum's performance as well. which I think has had surprising layers and reveals to it. And I think that we'll see where else it has to go.

But there's, I think a potential criticism of the first episode would be you could, and maybe I said this last week, I apologize, but like you almost could feel how much she prepared for this part of an FBI agent. Like I felt like she was showing us her work. By the time the second episode started, I realized that what we were seeing was Alice's public presentation. Sure. of having done the work to be a different person. Yeah. And that there are actually layers to the performance and subtleties that I, you know,

that I am only beginning to pick up on and appreciate. The other flip side of it is, and I wonder if you have analogies to this as well from other crime shows, just top of mind. Sure. But Catherine, played by Lola Petacru, it is no small thing, I think, that a villain, the murderer, who does awful, terrible shit,

also is granted a full humanity. And it's not a full humanity in the sense, in the cheaper sense that shows often do where maybe like in between murders, like they glance at a folded up picture of a family they once had. She does carry a folded up picture. It is not of that.

And the tenderness with which she's able to access with Alden is significant. The moments with Hal, the Campbell Scott character, where he is, you know, desperate for his life, but also briefly, you can see him reclaim his masculinity in that scene where he's like, oh, she's just a broken little girl who wants to be complimented.

It is a casting stroke of genius. I mean, obviously you and I are probably in this weird, like, vocal minority of, like, Campbell Scott super fans or whatever. It's like he should, you're, if the rewatchables had started 10 years earlier, you would have had a Campbell Scott take equal to the Luke Wilson take. I, I, right? Yeah, I can't even think of what it should be because he is an actor who

He does things I don't think you can necessarily teach or scout Like the reason that scene works is because of the tenor of his voice And he's had that tenor of his voice Going back to like singles and dying young But it's that warmth and that sensitivity That even though this guy is Jay Easton's attorney Who was brought in to clean up a murder scene he does sound paternally genuinely interested in Catherine.

Now, he's also a lawyer, so I imagine there is, you know, as we see with his fate, you know, like there's a degree to which it's manipulation and there's a degree to which. And I think that that's kind of what's really cool about this show is that there can be these very sincere emotional moments between Alden and Catherine, between Catherine and Rob Delaney's character's daughter, between even Allison Marshall, you know, there is a moment, but that moment is not the only thing that's happening in that scene. Like what's also happening is this person is being pushed to get something that the other character wants from them.

This is the thing that I think is really impressive, and again, kind of hard to articulate, tried last week. The show is so deeply about trauma and how it was. live post-trauma, but it contains the imagination and the creative space to show a world in which trauma exists, to show a world in which life exists before, during, and after traumatic incidents. So that it doesn't feel any necessity to hold our hand about how to feel about Marshall. It allows the space for Alice to show us through her, through word and emotion and deed and performance what this person meant to her in her life. And then what happened, which only

serves the drama in the sense that it compounds how hideously violating and violent and awful what happened was because we understand the circumstances that as a larger story. It's also very confrontational with the audience which I really appreciate.

Yeah. It definitely is. The audience for these kinds of shows I include myself in that audience are I don't know, we're kind of animals. Like, you know, like why am I watching this stuff as much as I do. I talk about that with Lioness. It's like, it's probably not good for the

soul to be so interested in the darkest parts of humanity. I actually have that written in my notes, but I was going to say it to you as a like a cautionary tale. I was going to actually be like an intervention. But, you know, this fascinating aspect of Maryweather brings you into scenes and you are like, I kind of know where this is going. And I feel weird about watching it. You know, I feel weird watching her, watching Catherine, like, I know what's going to happen to how. I know what's going to happen to Marshall.

I know, you know, what's going to happen to these people. And like the worldview of this show is such that I think it's like, it's like you have to basically behave in these certain ways to survive. Right. But I find it very confrontational in a very refreshing way, while never not entertaining and never not provocative. I'm trying to think of how it would be handled me in God, you know, I don't know how a man would have made this show.

But like, yeah, but like I'm trying to think of like how different storytellers would have handled just the central like mystery, which there isn't, but like the procedural element of it. And whether or not certain things like Nora's involvement in the 2012 murder. I mean, that's always, I mean, that isn't to your point about like that's an old piece of story. That's like an old pipe that fit into this, the idea that she is somehow complicit. and this is her past and her own failings and all of that, and it's going to be a trauma for her. What's interesting is the character of Nora and Quincy, Tyler Bernstein, casting.

I mean, we should, for the purposes of ongoing bits, which I know we need more of. We need, like, we could call them the Akram All-Stars after the guy in Department Q. Oh, yeah. Where it's just, like, a single casting choice on a secondary character not only elevates the show, but makes us fall completely in love with the performer

and want more. and she is so in that zone. You're totally right. There are multiple scenes where I would love to know if I'm right about this. I feel like you can see Emmy Rossum being like, holy shit while she's acting with her. Yes, and like a fan of it, like into it.

Yeah, yeah. I think I want to be careful about this statement because I think we all remember the film This is 40. But generally, I do want to encourage more comedians and comic writers to, to branch out of their genre ghetto. Yeah. Because this is, you know, this is seize weapons once.

But like I am definitely going to like, well, and also the Jordan Peel movies. Like I do think that there is something to this thing that we've talked about repeatedly ad nauseum that like comedy writers pivoting to horror. Like this is Liz Meriwether's like magnum opus in a different, completely different field than New Girl. You know, it's wild to me. And it's clearly done with love and affection for the genre, which hopefully, you know, I hope we get to talk to her about that specifically. But this show, I mean, I understand people checking it out and maybe your mileage may vary about the subject matter or the way that it's presented or, you know, some of the, maybe you get tripped up on the tropes that we're saying are actually not what you're supposed. That's not the view. That's just the drive.

But like, the reason I'm so fired up about it and I cannot wait to watch the next episode is because of, of the spirit of it is so creatively surprising. Scene to scene moment to moment. The actor I was going to say, Danny McCarthy plays ASAC, Ed George. And just like, again, there are, I'm sure the casting director, we should probably get the name of and shout out.

I'm sure there were 20 incredibly capable actors who could have played that part and been like, this is a small part, but I get it. He's bringing something that makes him... It's very funny to imagine that guy leading a health wellness. Yes. Well, right.

It's given, again, it's the writing is giving him a, the character is written to have some surprise built in, but just the way that he smiles, the way that he shut her down in the elevator, the way that she's long gaming to upend him is like, it's delightful to watch. There's a lot of cat and mouse games inside of the larger cat and mouse game. Anything else you wanted to hit about this? I love it. I don't know. I feel like I'm just a broken record at this point.

Would you say after this many episodes, it's, it's in your top. five, top three. Yeah. You're a recency baby. That is 100% true. Have you seen weapons? It's quite good. Might even get some Oscar buzz.

We've been podcasting for about an hour and five minutes. Okay. We covered the world of television and movies and this industry and technology in totality. And we've talked in depth about Furious. I hope people feel like we talked in depth about it. Well, we were kind of thrown by timing, but now we will pick it up whether, I don't know if it's,

is it a Monday or a Thursday show for us? It'll be a Monday show. So we'll talk about lanterns and we'll talk about episode six of Furious on Monday. Great. But for now, I'd like the lights to come down just a little bit. Oh, brother.

Okay. Let's get inside the cage. Did you plan this lighting? It's a lion, but it's a lady. In the cage with me. Uh-huh. I can only be who I am. This is good.

We should begin with like a, like a AA meeting. Begin with a mea cult. My name's Chris. Yeah. And I'm an alcoholic for Zoe Saldana, lifting weights and listening to the news and then saying pop smoke and going to Ukraine and arresting or kidnapping a Russian agent

who had like a little tracker in his armpit that they cut out. Yeah. How far did you get into this first episode? There's two up, but we're just going to talk broadly about the third season of Lioness here. Yeah, I, first of all, did you get to the dogs? I love you, and I respect your choices. And I think one of the keys to a healthy relationship, professional, personal, otherwise, is to give each other space, you know, to pursue your own passions.

Yeah. You know, without free of judgment. Unfortunately, this is a critical podcast. So that last part, I don't know if I can make good on. I just wanted, did you get to the dogs? I didn't get to the dogs. I think I made it to a bunch of people, I made it to a bunch of people shooting heavy caliber munitions

at and under drones in Ukraine. And then I was like, honestly, I'm 49 years old. Like how much time do I have left? I'm 48, so maybe that's probably like a younger kind of guy. That's also, that's the secret sauce of all podcasts. You know what I mean? Peanut Butter and Jelly, like two different generational perspectives. Let's talk in November and we'll see. There's a scene early on in this when Nicole Kidman who's on this television show.

With Martin Donovan who starred in multiple Hal Hartley movies and the film Tenet. As her husband. Yeah. The trader. Trades. Yeah. They are having a light breakfast. Alfrisco. Al fresco, lovely. You know, D.C. The district is wonderful that time of year.

I'm sure they're safely in Virginia. I don't think the novels of George Pelicanos are occurring just beyond. They're six acres. Triple Funk is playing. Like, if only. The U.S. Street corridor popping off. Young Joe House, no, a contemporary Joe House. Just down the street.

They are having breakfast, and Nicole is just staring at a hard copy. of the gray lady, the New York Times. And you know what? I'm just going to make sure, I'm just going to do it. It says the end of democracy is a giant headline in the New York Times. And the picture is like some clouds because like some smoke, like someone has thrown some sort of smoke bomb, be it an Antifa warrior or 90s era Batman, unclear. Either way, really, what's the difference, dog?

That's why the DCU is off to you. the ideas are too crazy. It says the end of democracy. Martin Donovan then gives a stirring monologue, which now I want you to fact check me, because as mentioned, I did have a cocktail yesterday. So maybe I... And did you watch this after the cocktail?

I think they were connected. Okay. In retrospect, I would have reversed it and had the drink after. But I believe he begins a monologue about how the greatest investor in America's universities are the Chinese

foreign nations. So is it any wonder that the students of these universities now espouse communist-leaning philosophies? I don't know that he used the C-word. He says communism.

Oh, he does? Okay. He 100% does. Okay. And he's like... Well, Taylor Sheridan had to head of the curve again. I know. And then he's like, so of course these reporters, you know,

think that they're onto something when in fact, clearly they just all like, he doesn't say this part, but essentially, they are There are institutions funded by foreign governments that have indoctrinated them to hate the country that they live in. Yes. And then he's like... That's just one POV. No, but this is my favorite part. It's like his heart, his version of the David Ellison op-ed where he's just like, I just call balls and strikes and like to make movies.

Is he's like, so anyone who went to college in America or works in journalism is a fucking dirty red. That said, no, let me finish. He's like, that said, the real existential enemy is AI. And then the scene ends. Yeah. No, the scene ends. And it's like you can't guess which is it, which is bad. The scene ends. Yeah, I know because she gets black bagged in her suburban.

Yeah. And then six months earlier, we go back. And again, it does the thing. One of the other things I respect about Taylor Sheridan is, obviously his politics keep you guessing. They do, though. They do. Two.

Two. He is, you know, we're like, well, he's immune to notes. He's also immune to industry trends because no one. made it to like the, what is it, the triple six's ranch or whatever, and was like, sir, sir, tears in their eyes. Audiences are turning against the six months earlier conceit. Right. So he does that.

And then we're off to the races. Look, I just think we all have to express ourselves in different ways. And so maybe this is our podcast version of on the Italian job rewatchables when Van eloquently spoke about a porn adaptation of the Italian job. That he had imagined. That he had imagined down to like he cast it. He had visions. Neapolitan crime families warring with sex acts.

Yes. Him talking about that in the way that that satisfies his basest urges is kind of, and the face you made is kind of the face I'm making when you watch this show. Because I'm willing to, look, the lights have changed. We're not going to talk about, I think, to be completely honest, If I want to talk about Linus. You have some 4chan groups. I think that Van will probably be joining me because Van has called me seven times in the last two weeks and told me that I'm actually a coward because I hadn't caught up yet because I was on vacation.

And I was like, look, man, like when we get enough, when we get a foothold on the front in Ukraine, like we can talk about it. Like I want to see what this is about. Let me tell you something because I can't believe you quit watching. because I think you missed something. Small point. If there's any way we could do a hard cut and just start the pot, like just cut away to you

and then Van is sitting here wearing a tasteful shacket with three drinks, the hardest of which is a day-old green tea, and you just continue the conversation, that's gold. I just want to tell you about one thing that happens

in this episode. So obviously, like here's the recap of the first episode. Joe lifts weights, takes a shower. Her husband tries to join her in the shower. But guess what?

It's cold. It's cold. And he's like, ah, it's so cold. And she's like, it's good for inflammation. Yeah. And he's like, so's Advil. And she's like, I want my body to do it, not a pill. I mean.

Open your third eye, brother. You don't know. That's how I feel about anxiety, but please continue. And then it turns out that, you know, a Russian agent is being offered up to them. It turns out somehow a Russian agent has returned. Go on. Did you see the scene where the lionist crew? goes to Georgetown and they all exercise.

Yeah, they're all pretending to be like, and then the best part is and they're like, guess we're going to Ukraine. They're like, ah, shit. I guess I picked the wrong day to... When they get to Ukraine, this is probably where you turned it off because they're running to the house

and there's all these drones above them. There were a lot of drones, yeah. And they get to a cabin and they go down to a bunch of sub-levels and then they get there and there's a bunch of CIA people and much of army people, US-based. And it's like, well, who's going to lead this expedition? because we're not going to use Joe's team.

They're not trained in trench warfare, drone warfare. Who's going to lead us? It's Taylor Sheridan. I had heard this. It's Cody. I actually had heard this, and I think that may be a reason why I looked away. And he becomes then the central character of the second half of the first episode of the third season of Lioness. Right.

And he leads a team of Delta guys with German shepherds who eat fucking. Russians and North Koreans. It's fucking disgusting. So you train them specifically? So you have like racist dogs to begin with. They are German shepherds. That's true. That's true. A hundred percent that's true. It's not like they were like, how did you make this teddy bear? How did you take this fucking doodle, this golden doodle and make him? One of the dogs doesn't make it though. Back. Yeah. And the breeder is quite. upset. Yeah, I know because you know how much hate speech

to filter into the kennel? I don't know what to say. Can I ask you another question? When I watch lots of shows, I'm like, how long have I been sitting in front of this TV? It has to have been two hours and it's like eight minutes. And with Linus, like time flies by. Like I

am engaged. I'm leaning in. You know? I come to this place. You're leaning in one direction for sure. I think it's a little bit to the... This thing is I can separate the art and the artist. I'm sorry. I guess that makes you the asshole. First of all, I do, I would love to know the background of Taylor Sheridan being cast in that part where like they did an exhaustive search. There was no background. He's like, I'm playing code. I know. I'm just saying can you imagine though. They're like, we've done an exhaustive search of the nation's jarheads and

like we just can't find anyone with the moral conviction. No veterans could read four lines. No. And he's just like, fine. I'll come off the sidelines to do this. I genuinely, I was trying to to come up with a way to talk to you about this that would preserve our friendship, but also that would not be just negativity. You can't scare me. But there's also like genuinely, the headlines of our landman coverage is often like

what the fuck. But every so often there are moments of bizarre either it's just like perceptiveness or local color or some sense of a world that we haven't seen before before he gets distracted. Oh, you spent a lot of time on the front lines of Ukraine? That's a world you've seen before.

I've seen it all before, brother. Every morning I have breakfast outside and pour over the war coverage and the failing New York Times. People point to fairly, he can't keep you guessing. Like his worldview and the things that he feel strongly about don't necessarily fit neatly into one tribe or the other. And he loves pushing those buttons. And I think the college roommate being a big example of that in the last season of Landman. I think the problem I have with his shows, and this is genuinely a problem with Landman, is that he always, whether he believes this or not,

he always defaults to a complete credulity in faith in the most either rich in the case of Landman or the most powerful in the case of Linus. And like the full, you know, the full, like, armament and awe and majesty and destructive power of the United States government if they were just finally, if the woke handcuffs came off.

You know what I mean? And I find that really boring because the thing about Landman is like, the dude, like the chief, boss and the scene where they have the barbecue and like they all show up like he's showing people who do a really fucking gnarly job for a living and most shows are not interested in that right but the show can't help itself by being like ultimately what I'm interested in is the rich guy is going to it's going to work out for him and he's going to get richer and his wife's going to be able to go shopping

on a private jet that bums me out and so the thing with this show too is like I just wish it had a little more curiosity about the cracks in the world as opposed to being like you fucking sheeple don't get it. We need this. I don't really know if I need it to do that. I don't, I mean, because I think I find it more, like,

I think I find it more broadly entertaining to watch a highly violent Tom Clancy. Yeah, I understand I'm trying to put like a British barrister wig on peak Arestalone. I'm not going to make you watch this. This is not going to be a running bit on the show.

I do think that for whatever it's worth at the end of the episode when they get done with this incredibly violent, like, Ukraine. They're like, this is way beyond, like, our comprehension of what warfare is supposed to be. Like, at one point, like, one of the characters

is, like, these guys, it's like, it's like World War I meets Star Wars here, because it's all of, like, these drones and robot robotic armaments, but it's also people like running in trenches. And it's like, so it's like, whether or not it's a realistic depiction of that combat theater, I have no idea.

I do. I would say it gets about 60%, right? Okay. Anyway, every once in a while, maybe I'll check in, but, you know, Van and I will get in the cage together next time. What are Van's other, like, where else is he going to take this show when he replaces me? I mean, Van's very busy. I can't overly leverage him, you know, like, I need you around a little. Okay.

Yeah. Coming off the bench for some, like, high-minded, like, well, drops of God season three is back. Let me tell you my porn parody of that. Well, how Jordan historically is like this? That me? good. It's good. Canonically, it's inaccurate, but I'm willing to make excuses. You know about two things. The Ukrainian front, Green Lantern.

That's why you're valuable to me. No, come on, you're my guy. We take this show together. It's a Waymo with two wheels. You know? So it's a Waymo bicycle? Except I'm on the front, like Titanic. When I was in Portland the other week, a couple rode by me. on a tandem bike

both wearing N95 masks Did you have anything to say? No. Did you tell them about woke one? No. I was just sitting in my Honda rented.

Because you like to be able to move at any time? You never know when they then the Russians are going to buy back. No, no, I get it. I don't even know why I told that. You're just watching those people on bikes being like, I bet you think dogs

aren't prejudiced. must be nice. You know who defends that freedom for you? Fucking lionesses. Just walk around just shaking your head being like, these people have no idea. They have no idea with what Zohzoldaya is done for that. They're $30 sandwiches.

Yeah. They're fucking orange wines. I just, you know what it is? Yeah. I can move between spaces there, you know? No, this is why you are ultimately electable. You know what I mean? Like, you could play in both worlds.

Like, you may lean that way, but you didn't endorse Francesca Hahn. That's why I froze my eggs just to sort of, you know, like, you never know what my future is going to be. Beautiful eggs. That's the Kayakai and Sarah. That's a great. That's part of your pitch for the male reboot of Furious.

I've got some notes. I didn't say that. I said, God forbid, a guy had made that. God forbid. You protest a little much. Oh, no. Pots over. Furious.

but for him who says no