The Watch - Is ‘Stranger Things’ the Last Gasp of Blockbuster TV? Plus, Why Netflix’s ‘Death by Lightning’ Is Worth Your Time.

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the upcoming premiere of the fifth and final season of ‘Stranger Things’ and how it’s significantly evolved over the years (7:21). Then they discuss why the new Netflix historical drama ‘Death by Lightning,’ starring Michael Shannon and Matthew Macfadyen, is worth your time (18:11). Later, they check in with ‘The Morning Show’ Season 4 (38:38), ‘I Love LA' (47:17), and ‘The Chair Company’ (49:09). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio from London, dead by lightning. It's Andy Greenwald. Haven't seen a lot of lightning here. A lot of rain. Yeah.

Bob clouds. Yes. A lot of storming. We've had a lot of like really just right into the BBC shipping forecast here for our listeners. What's up, man? It's Chris and Andy. This will be our last show from London. For now.

Because we're going to be back in LA next week, back to regular scheduled program. Thanks to everybody for bearing with us as we erratically publish episodes of this podcast while overseas. I'd like to say that we could have done more, but unfortunately, both of us have gotten just outrageously lost here in the Warrens of Spotify UK, which is the most confusing building. That's true. I have ever set foot in. There are all these missing posters up for podcasters who have gotten lost looking for bathrooms. Correct me if I'm wrong.

To get out of the studio we're in now, I could turn left or take a series of ramps and end up in the same place. You know, it's funny you should mention that just really quickly. You can email us at The Watch at The Watch at The Watch Podcast. The Watchpod. The Watchpod underscore Instagram. You can watch us on the Ringer-Tash TV YouTube channel and on Spotify, where you're hopefully listening to us. And last night I was recording an episode of The Big Picture about Predator Badlands. From here.

Yes, which is a film I saw at BFI South Bank IMAX, which is fantastic. And you weren't alone. This is a huge hit. No, it was a big, big hit. A lot of people had a lot of time for El Fanning playing two parts. pause, when you say two parts, you mean she plays two roles, or she is ripped into two parts?

Both. And anyway, so I was recording the pod, and as I was leaving last night, I was just like, goodbye, and walked into one room, and then all of a sudden, like, my badge didn't work on one door. And I was like, well, here I am in this other hallway,

I'm sure at the other end of it, I should be able to get out, swipe. And, like, I increasingly was able to swipe through one door, and then when that door would close no longer be able to use it, and getting into smaller and smaller confined spaces until I found myself in like an office lobby somewhere. I want to be clear that upon check-in just now,

as opposed to in L.A. where they are very, very strict about entry and monitoring things and having a little sticker with my bad picture on it that says Kaya's name just in case I need to be returned to my master. The guys here were like, go ahead. And we were both like, does he need, do I need a sticker of some kind? And they looked at me the same way the dudes at the edge of the labyrinth looked at Theseus, and they were team Minotaur.

They were like, it's fine. Good pull. It'll work itself out. You know what I mean? Like, they're like, either you'll come out or you won't. But we're not that worried about proprietary IP. Andy, had a couple of things for you today. We're going to talk a little bit about Death by Lightning, which is a new series on Netflix.

Excited to talk about that. Starring Michael Shannon and Matthew McFadion. McFadden. How do you pronounce it? McFadden. You could throw in a little Y, I think, to, like, just at the end, throw the slider. But I mask it. That's what I, you know.

First of all, you just looked like me trying to show off throwing a frisbee in 1995. This is the slider. No, but also you could like, you ever throw a frisbee, buddy? You ever throw a frisbee enough to throw a frisbee with a dude with the Greenpeace backpack who's like whipping it forehand? Yes. And then you're like, yeah, I can do that. And then you like decapitated dog. Shout to Greenpeace. Those guys nailed it.

They picked their moment. They went big. Okay, yeah. Throw in the McFadden. I don't want to derail. No. But at the top of show, can I just say one thing? I don't know, which is my camera.

Is it about death by lightning? No. Oh, sure. We're going to talk about other TV shows. We're going to talk about, I love L.A. We'll share company maybe. I want to ask you about stranger things. I want to ask you about Pervis.

Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I can't wait. We're so cozy in the studio. But first. I just want to check in. I did just mention Kaya.

And Kaya's going to be going through this back in L.A. Oh, because she threw a hospital ball on your courage bagels clip. And our guy, Kai, who's been doing video clips. And I just want to look in the camera and say, what would you like from London? What can I bring you? Perhaps a scented candle from Liberty, something from selfridges.

Because in the comfort and safety of this room, I am my most genuine self. You know exactly what you're doing when you're doing. I do not. Give me a break. I do not. You know that when you are teeing off on beloved, popular small businesses within the Los Angeles Eastside community.

Small businesses. I feel very comfortable. I'm sorry Einstein's bagels didn't get that spot, you know, okay? But Courage Bagels is doing what they can. Wow. From the Chamber of Secrets to the Chamber of Commerce. I am across it all. I just want to say that, like, historically, I'm just not built for these times.

Because you and I came up. For context, Andy made some disparaging remarks. No. Andy ranked Courage bagels low in his power rankings of L.A. bagel spots. This is so niche, but yes. My point is, the bigger picture is, I feel exposed. It's tough to say things. Is that why you're sitting so low in the seat over there? Aren't you sitting so low in this? I feel like I'm taller than you in this one. This is a very low bucket seat, and also I am clearly feeling nervous and needing the womb-like support of this, whatever this is.

I just feel like this is usually a safe space for me to deliver my most sincere takes. And now those takes are getting melon-balled out. Your naivete about this at this point is crazy. You absolutely are the take lord. You never only, you are never like, Courage bagels is fine. You're like, I, that's how I live my life.

You love something or you hate something. And Kaya being, and Kai being good producers, they focus on your hate. They focus on the dark side of the force. No, no. Post the love. Let's get a,

what happened, what's wrong with a 12,000 eyeball clip? You know what I mean? What's wrong with a nice clip being like, I love LA is pretty good. We also put that one out last week. I saw that.

There was a clip where you were like, it's nice having a show like this. Yeah, that one didn't do numbers. It's pretty nice. Well, if you were watching us, would you stop on that clip to schmucks being like, I like this show. It was pretty good.

It was pretty funny. I don't get all the references, but it's okay. 20-somethings do drugs. Yeah. That's fine. All right, I just need to get offline and just live, just immune to the consequences

of my actions. Yeah, that can be a big project for you when you return to America, getting offline. Well, I hear the government's working again, so I'm good. I can just visit some national parks. I was in the hotel lobby this morning, and a guy was explaining he was American, but his mother was Norwegian, and I felt like a lot of the Norway had gotten into him where he was very direct and, you know, sort of

straightforward about the government shut down in the states. and he was explaining it to the concierge or the front desk person at the hotel. And he was just really like, well, we'll see. We'll see when they actually get back to work. I don't know. Oh, so he's results oriented. Yeah, exactly.

Well, Congress has been killing it. When it comes to air traffic control, I am results oriented as well. Especially since we are both about to experience the glories of the internet. It's an AB kind of thing. That's fair. Greenwald, I wanted to ask you a little bit

about stranger things. I think I've done some temp checks with you recently. These are sort of pointless because I know you haven't really watched much past season two, right? Yeah, I feel, I apologize. I know it is the biggest thing. I don't think you have to apologize because one thing that we don't think we actually talked about the trailer,

which came out a couple of weeks ago. It's quite long. I didn't even watch it. And it is a really interesting indication of how much this show has changed over its just astonishingly long run, even if not that many seasons compared to the amount of time it's been on the air. It's been 10 years, I think. Yes, exactly, because the first season. was a sensation as the ringer

really started to publish. And that was one of the first things that we kind of seized on as... I remember that, yeah. As like a kind of pop cultural artifact from that era. So the trailer comes out and the trailer looks

way more James Cameron than Amblen, Richard Donner, Goonies, fun 80s kind of kids hanging out. Now we're adult 80s. Yes. And it has way more T2... Terminator vibes than anything like the Explorers or Goonies or Stand By Me or whatever.

And that's cool. Like I think most shows go through some sort of transformation. I was just mentioning to Sean just how remarkable the Breaking Bad arc is when you actually go back and watch some early episodes of the show. Oh, in terms of how the tone change. Tone and just, you know, when you imagine, if I had shown you the first episode of Breaking Bad and then I showed you the final season trailer with the Azamandia, poem reading, you would be like, that's not the same show.

And that's a beautiful testament to what TV can be. Yes. A journey. I almost felt like watching the spectacle around this last season of Stranger Things, which is going to be theatrically released in some cases. I believe the finale is going into theaters. It is being released over the course of Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's in big chunks. I'm very curious to see how.

that's received, especially if these are two plus hour action movies. Which they seem to be according to the advanced word. And also whether this is like kind of maybe going to be the last of its kind, with TV shows. It's hard to imagine

another show lasting as long as this one. Having this arc seen people become stars over the course of its run to the extent, I mean, Millie Bobby Brown, I suppose, would be the biggest example, but Finn Wolfhardt's done really well for himself.

And Maya Hawks' careers ascendant and Joe Kiery. Despite Lily Allen's best efforts, he's still walking around. You want to weigh in on that record? I haven't listened to it specifically, but I do think it's pretty amazing. Just like the excerpts I've read from some of her observations. Quite direct.

Yes. Unlike a lot of English people I've met. Just Lillian says it. She does. Do you think we'll ever see another situation like this, though, or is this kind of a last TV show? Well, and maybe even the last gasp of blockbuster TV in a way. It's interesting.

It's an interesting question. I think that there's a couple ways to approach it. And one is, I have to confess, I do feel, I do apologize to you and our listeners that I did not make good on my, I'm sure I promised at some point to catch up. The truth is, I did think that as my older daughter sort of aged into it, she might get into it. And then I would have a way in. She got close and then did a hard left at the Wednesday fork in the wrong. road. So I've been watching that. Well, that's not, I've not done a stranger thing.

So that's at a point. That's in my, in my defense, I guess, if anyone will accept it. I think one of the most remarkable things about the stranger things, whether two, one is that it is despite its obvious influences, it is original IP. And it grew into blockbuster status

and in a way earned this sendoff that there was enough demand, there was enough interest to both have these giant size episodes, but this giant marketing push. It's taken over even here in London. It's everywhere. And the runtimes, et cetera, et cetera. The other thing is, I'm sure Netflix, if you ask Netflix for a do-over,

they would not have wanted the show to take 10 years. But it is a really interesting snapshot of audiences growing up with something. To your point, like, would the show have been able to make these tonal shifts if the children hadn't become, like, pushing 30 while making it? Yeah, Finn Welford's going to play Paul Westerberg. I'm interested. But also just that the audience itself has grown into maybe a mature audience who can handle the bigger themes that they seem to be playing with. I think that's all pretty interesting.

It was never a cheap show, but it definitely fit an older paradigm of big genre pieces in that it started small and expanded and grew into something massive. You can say that's because the film The Duffer Brothers expanding it. or ego or actor salaries or talent or whatever, but that's the arc it took, which is not that dissimilar from Game of Thrones, which, as we love to point out, was mostly people in rooms until the dragons got big. Yes.

The precedent now for launching this stuff is a little bit inverted. It does feel like it has to start big and then stay big, which is really, really, really challenging. Challenging from a production standpoint, challenging from a network spend standpoint, and challenging from an audience standpoint, from an audience standpoint, I think, as we're learning with the long delays and House the Dragon

and stuff like that. So it is weird to talk about something as unique and as uniquely fraught as Stranger Things as production has been and say a classic example of TV doing what it does best. But if you squint, maybe? Yeah, or I think that this will go down as a time capsule piece from a very specific era of TV. Obviously, this was the first big breakout hit that Netflix had that was owned and operated by Netflix. Before that, they had been a buyer of shows and then aired them. This is the first significant, like, hit of their own. I believe they purchased House of Cards from someone else, too.

Oh, House of Cards was MRC. Yeah. They announced themselves in the marketplace by outbidding for things and then partnering. And giving, like, full two-season orders, you know, before. That's how Netflix, at least in terms of the anecdotes, that's how Netflix took House of Cards from HBO, right, guaranteeing two seasons. But then, you know, I was thinking about the other shows out there that have maybe been big hits since, I don't know, not even that Mad Men comparatively was as big of a hit as something like stranger things. But in that post-prestige era where you get into like the peak TV and then maybe even like post-peak TV, if you want to call it that, like you more often than not see something like Yellowstone, which even though it became a phenomenon and how we'll have spin-offs and, you know,

made some careers, ended more with a fizzle than with a bang. Because of Costner, I don't think that they were able to go out the way they wanted to. Yeah. And possibly because Taylor Sheridan is working on 15 other things, lost sight of maybe what, and I don't know Yellowstone was ever supposed to be a 70-hour television show. That's the other risky run in the more or less. And again, these Yellowstone and Stranger Things, it's a stretch to call them traditional. But the traditional way of deal-making and starting something from a baby idea and letting it grow

means you can't always control the outcome. Best case scenario, the creators stick around, get to call their shot, land the plane, whether people like whether people agree with the ending or not, like tell the full story that they want it to tell. It is just as likely that you could lose audience. You could lose the plot, metaphorically speaking. You could just your star could decide to make a two-part, spend his own money making a two-part Western that Did the second part ever come out? No, but it is being released on physical media.

On physical media? Nice. So will the council convene? Will you, Tracy, Tim and Sean? Possibly a small subsection of the guy? A working group might convene? Working group. Right.

Anyway, you can't control it. So I guess the traditionalist in me is happy that they were able to end on their own terms. I mean, again, like the reason that I'm here working in London is working on something, obviously that is a very huge, huge production. And the scale of it and the requirements of maintaining that scale are humbling. Like genuinely, I am in awe and a little bit terrified of it. And it has to begin at a level that is unprecedented. Sure.

And has to maintain that level, which, you know, and the only way you can do that in today's economy, or maybe honestly in any responsible economy is to do it with one of the two or three biggest IPs in the world. Otherwise, how could you get there? Where would you put Pluribus in that version of TV where you have to start big versus the version of TV? Well, I think that Pluribus is both exhilarating

and relatively unique because it is a star-driven enterprise, but the star is the creator, the writer and creator. And that is very rare and incredibly dependable. You know, that was why Apple, I think, felt confident giving it a two-season order. Like, generally, like, if you get in a situation where it's a bidding war, and I do think Plurvis coming from Sony, which is Vince Gilligan's long-time studio home,

it was a bidding war by all accounts. Like, it went out to market. Generally, a two-season guarantee comes from a place that has nothing to lose and everything to gain, like Netflix getting House of Cards. They didn't know if the show was even going to be good, but they needed it for their portfolio, and they would just see what happens. If it's a Vince Gilligan show, you can probably feel pretty confident that it's going to deserve a second season creatively.

Yes. That's pretty unique. also, as we were just talking even before we got on the air, like among the other unique things about Pluribus, and we're not spoiling it. So no one needs to hit the skip button. If you haven't watched it, I think you should watch it, but you should also not know anything about it, if possible.

Outside of Ray Sehorn, there are no stars, at least no stars yet. Not yet, yeah. So as we've seen, that's pretty unique. Like, the nature of the business is really, it's not necessarily the same all the time as it was 10 years ago where it was like, get me every actor who's never been in a TV show and let me pay them $2 million an episode, although I think talking about the morning show is on your docket,

so it might become relevant again. But it definitely is, like, it definitely, the economy of the business definitely is from a streamer or network standpoint, let me fill every margin of this canvas with something reliable or known just to hedge my bets. And that's not the case with the purpose, and it's better for it.

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Betty Gilpin, Shea Wiggum, Bradley Whitford. Really great to see him in this. I believe he's also in, is he in Diplomat as well? He's in The Diplomat. So, yeah, great. A lot of rave reviews for diplomat. I know. You know what?

Honestly, diplomat is the one that I'm like, but I have to start at the beginning. And so I just kind of, I should, maybe I should just like bang out some diplomat on a flight. You got an 11-hour flight. I know. I was going to say. And then Nick Offerman. This comes from a creator named Mike McCowski, who people may have seen his HBO film with Hugh Jackman called Bad Education. He's written out a couple of features as well.

But he is creating us, and I believe writing a lot. of it under the EP. He wrote the whole thing. Schingle, great. Good, because I love the first episode. So if he's writing the whole thing, I think it's great. And Matt Ross, who people might remember as an actor on Silicon Valley, who is also director.

He directed a great movie with Vigo Mortensen a few years ago. Its name I'm absolutely blanking on, but I can call up. And he directed Gaslit, I believe it was called, the Sam S-Mail show. He directed all of it. So it is a four episode written and directed by all the same folks. Captain Fantastic was Matt Ross's movie. And this is based on the book Destiny of the Republic by Candace Mallard, which I believe Littman, Juliet Lidman would say, is one of her favorite recent books.

Is it? Yes. She was very excited for this series. And I went in knowing about as much about this period, or this specific president, which is James A. Garfield, his fate, which is decided by Charles Guto, who is played, or Guito, played by McFadden. And kind of like, also about Chester A. Arthur and Ulysses S. Grant, like, I knew, I basically, I'm like right there in the Civil War.

I got it pretty... You're good. I'm pretty good. And then I go west. My interests go west. That's right. 1870s, 1880s. I'm much more interested in

your lonesome doves or what have you than I am in what was going on in Washington, D.C. And I just never got taught this era. So I almost went into death by lightning about as blind as I went into pluribus. I feel the same way. And I was just like,

here's what happened when I turned on this first episode, written by Mikowski, directed by Ross, obviously. And it's set in the 1880s, largely in Chicago for this first episode, but around, in and around the Midwest in that era. And then to D.C. Yes. And it's set during the Republican National Convention, which is supposed to be a layup renomination for Grant for his third term. Yeah. Good for him. I hope that never happens to be relevant again. And, you know, there's just supposed to be a couple sacrificial lambs. You stand up and try to make some points, but they know that Grant's going to get his nomination. And he is being essentially managed by Shea Wiggum's New York Senator, who seems like a

real character. Roscoe Conkling. And he is kind of old party politics style. Like, you know, everybody gets a job, but then they deliver their votes. Michael Shannon, playing James A. Garfield, stands up, gives a very stirring speech about how they're the party of Lincoln. They should be the party of the working man, that every fireplace in America matters, and the people lying in bed at night need to know that the people in Washington care about them and have the same principles. He talks about affordability. He talks about his favorite halal carts and queens.

Buses are free, you know? It's pretty inspiring stuff. First, we got to invent the bus, then we're not going to charge for it. The horseless bus. Wouldn't you know it throughout an amazing series of events? And I got to admit, one thing I do really love, say it. 19th century conventions. No, dude, go bigger.

I fucking love conclaves. Yeah. I actually love a conclave. I didn't understand this about myself because frankly, we have not been given enough conclaves. And I will include the film Conclave, which I was mixed on,

but the part of it I liked most, the titular conclave. So you get me a scene of a bunch of people in a room talking about who should win, and then you lock them in and it gets a little hot, gets a little tight in there,

nerves are frayed, back room deals are happening, and one, hero rises to meet the moment. And it's always that, why did he get one vote guy? Yes, and you know what else? He doesn't want it. He doesn't want it, but heavy is the head.

Yes, heavy as the head. Destiny's calling. I think that every vote should count for sure. Great. But here we go. This is how it starts. It's pretty fun to watch them decide. You know, it's pretty fun to watch like a group of 12 dudes decide. Another good example of this was the film Lincoln,

where they have to get the, votes for the amendment. Yes. But there's a lot of backstabbing and lying and like Stratharans just absolutely, you know, and David Cost of people are like, you lied to us. Can you imagine? Like, and that's how we ended up with Democratic nominee Dick Durbin. Because a bunch of guys went to room and we're like, everybody likes Dick.

Uh, nobody likes Dick. All right. So this show, you start it, you start watching it. And here's what I felt. Yeah. I want to talk about the opening specifically. Is that where you're going? As we got into arrivals in Chicago and deals being made,

I felt myself have multiple generations of sons and become a grandfather who just sits around reading history books. Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, we're closer to that than you may realize. Sons aside. Like, I don't think... I was prepping a joke about how, like, one day I'll become a guy that just has a thousand-page doorstopper book about Congress next to me.

Then I'm like, the numbers are the numbers. You know what I mean? Like I got about five more years of cool spy books before that just becomes my identity. We're getting there. I just found this to be very fleet of foot. Yes. And not, despite the fact that it was obviously doing a lot of exposition

and everybody is like, do you mean President Grant, the Civil War hero, one piece at Appomattox? Like that's how they are introducing people. Not mad at it. Dude, it moved. It had a great tempo and a great pace. Let's talk about that.

Let's talk about ways to make... Let's just rap about history, kids. What's up? I got some TikToks to show you about reconstruction. I joke, but also, the show opens in a relatively surprising way that started to feel worrisome, which is it starts with 1960s soul music playing. Yes. And I was like, oh, okay.

Immediately my brain leapt to, this is a post-Steven-N-Ni. historical drama. And we talked about Stephen Knight's... Yes, we talked about Stephen Knight recently. He is one of the most prolific TV creators of our time. He is often brilliant, and we often, very often like his shows. Yes. Rogue heroes and Peaky Blinders, two of my favorite shows of recent memory.

I struggled with and did not really engage with House of Guinness for the reason I'm about to repeat, which is it's Fontaine's DC version. of history, which everything is an anachronistic needle drop set punch up with glossy images. Yeah, and every like oristic trat is also a bare knuckle boxer who loves

to do snuff. I completely respect it. I have enjoyed it in doses and I see why that fits Netflix's strategy to make the history go down like cheeseburgers. But I didn't know if I wanted an American version of that necessarily. And what was very clever about the beginning is that

it isn't that. Yeah. The music is actually period appropriate because the show begins in the 60s with some people moving a house, a building of records and presidential stuff. And it's our boy, Ram and Jowadi from Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon doing the score. Doing the score, which I didn't know about that. Let's circle back to that.

They find a brain in a jar as one does. I mean... And this is the 1960s scene. Yeah, but it's a hallmark of... I mean, there's a lot of different genres that begin with people going in some sort of government archives and there's a brain in the jar. You know, I feel like they could get a Wait, are you pulling my leg?

No, I just feel like that would be the beginning of like an invasion movie or something. Yeah, but there's not like a lot of shows that start that way. Funny story, Chris. What been my time is TV-Kritic for Grin? The first episode. No, did you know that the first episode

of the Seinfeld Chronicles did not have Julia Louis-Dreyfus, but it did have a brain in the jar? I did not know that. Well, I know. And then it transitioned. They go like, who the fuck is this? And then we go back into the past.

Yeah. And what that communicated in a really fun way was that we were not going to be somber. We were not going to be overly reverential about tone or history. We were going to be lively, but we are also not going to be glib, which I really, really appreciated. And then it just went into, as you said, something that just moves. It didn't feel the need to narratively explain itself, which I think was one of the reasons why I didn't stick with, I bet this is a theme for me, I guess. Not sticking with this.

Yeah. was Manhunt the Apple. I was going to bring Manhunt up. Another thing, and who knows, I think the fact that this is a short series is very attractive.

But I think with Manhunt, it was, I admired it and did not feel the need to finish it. Again, I would like to know more about the genesis of the show

and maybe we could talk to people involved in it because Mike Mikowski, if you look at, he's a very young writer and creator. He's 34 years old. I would not have guessed his CV, you know, as the person who would make this show.

So I don't know if he was passionate about the book or if it was a really, really successful marriage made in a general meeting where Beniof and Weiss and their company or Netflix had the rights to this and they were just taking meetings. It seems like someone who was really fleet of foot and not too reverential. And maybe the book's written in that spirit. I don't know. But immediately I was like, I'm really excited that these people are telling me this story. and it happens to be a story that I know literally nothing about.

Well, and then you get into the performances because I think that is kind of like the dice roll for all of these shows. This also kind of fits into a Netflix tradition of what I would very lovingly call Wikipedia shows, which is, even for as much as I adore almost every iteration of Narcos, has a little bit of like,

that there was Pablo Escobar, you know, like voiceover, and, you know, just make sure, you know, and that's the year that old Ronnie Reagan decided declare war on drugs. Well, we had fun with that one. I feel like you should do this for a lot of our recaps. Have Boyd Holbrook or just narrate history? Like last week when we were talking about I Love L.A.,

you were like, you know, Rachel Senate plays Maya, an up-and-coming manager who also sometimes does ketamine and cares about skin care. That there is the Silver Lake Reservoir where guys like to walk around with water bottles. That's what I'm saying. They called it Arawon. They sold a smothery. A $25 confection. Like, now you're sounding like Woodrow from Lonesome Drums.

So? Because I'm trying to stick to Boyd-Holbrook. Oh, I'm messing with your invitation? A minute ago, you're like, I only read Lonesome Dove. That's not what I said. I just said that like once we get after this Civil War, I go west like Horatio Alger. I don't stay over in the East Coast.

You're not a creature of the swamp town of Washington. I get it. That said, do you think Boyd-Hulbrook in character as a 1980s DEA agent sees the word smoothie for the first fucking time and nails it? You don't think it's possible that he garbles it?

Wouldn't he just be like, it's much like an orange Julius? That's exactly right. Sherbet in a cup for 30 American dollars designed by the wife of a pop star Justin Bleber.

Although this wife does do quite well in the makeup space and wellness. I believe she's what's called an influencer. Pablo Escobar liked wellness. of another kind. Nose willness.

Anyway, Death by Lightning. I'm going to say something controversial about a bagel store. Let's go mega-viral. Yeah. The cast of this show and what the cast is doing.

One thing that's sometimes difficult with any show that you're going to start with two people on a collision course, but they're not going to have a ton of interaction, at least early on, is making sure this was an issue I was always kind of curious with task. Ruffalo and Pelfrey

kind of famously did not have very many scenes together and barely saw each other during production because they were shooting on different ends of the city or because they were shooting in different locales or whatever and he was they were like yeah you know it was kind of always wondering you know making sure that we're in the same show

making sure that we're doing tonally something that is in the same show and complimentary and I think that this show so far is doing something wonderful with its two leads McFaddeny is incredible in this first episode. Playing someone who is essentially looks like a small-time hustler who's been in and out of prison and in and out of scams and deals that fall through

and is always looking for a get-rich-quick scheme. But in his mind is a man of ambition and is a man of big dreams and is looking for someone to recognize that in him and give him the opportunity. He's constantly going up to people and saying, I have an opportunity to give you if you give me the opportunity to make sense of life. And to be seen by you. Exactly. And he is essentially banging around Chicago, living with his sister, but is, I think, before we...

He's released from prison at the beginning of this year. Before we had, like, a diagnosis for it would probably be bipolar or something. You know, like, obviously it just has episodes of darkness, episodes where there's a moment later in the first episode where he is chopping wood manically and nearly swings the axe at his sister, who is pretty much the only person in the... world looking out for him. Played by Paula Malcumson. You might remember from Deadwood, which is worth mentioning as an influence on this show, because I think if you wanted to know the equation of this series, it would be basically Gilded Age by way of Deadwood.

And I just thought that the energy that he was emitting was absolutely electric. And if Michael Shannon had been doing the same thing, like Twitchy kind of energy. It would have been too much. Totally. But Shannon is doing stock still, man of Lincoln. Farmer has a great family, cares about the right kind of thing.

Decent but unambitious. Yeah. And it allows Shea Wigham and Bradley Whitford to eat scenery. And Wigham has this great scene in the first episode where he takes a piss and then he's like, takes off all of his rings before he washes his hand. And that's like, I think that was my favorite scene in the episode.

He's just sort of like, you should have stayed on that farm, you know? So look, this is, to me, honestly, a pretty easy recommend. Did you have any other thoughts on it before we go? Oh, I had one more I wanted to give you. Well, I think the performances are just great. I think it's just great to see, first of all, elite facial hair acting by everyone involved.

Can't possibly do better. It is a example of something that is just clearly elevated by the actors who are available to it. Because when you cast Shea Wiggum, and as you said, it's everyone is perfect. cast. It kind of reminds me like American Masterpiece Theater. Everyone is perfectly cast. Everyone is firmly in their bag. Yeah. But there is a

directorial and producerial hand here. Because I think you characterized it well, that like you can only spin Shea Wiggum at that velocity if other people aren't spinning as fast. Yeah. You know, it's really artfully done that everyone is complimenting

each other depending on the gradation of their of their spin. I'd also say it is, is, you know, we have, when the names David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have come up on this podcast in the last year or so. It was a combination of optimism or incredulity about three-body problem, which was the, like, the fruit of their massive, massive post-game of Thrones Netflix deal. We've also just kind of talked about the deal and how challenging it is to get the Albert Poo-Holes deal after you've been an MVP elsewhere and you rarely get return on investment to that degree.

it is worth celebrating then that however it got there, this came in to Netflix through their deal and has to be considered, I think, a win as part of that deal. I fist bump both of those guys

because when you really think about it the two things that they have done and really, I would you consider what was the Sandra Osha, the chair? Yeah. Oh, that's right. Would you consider that part of their deal?

Well, it's probably why it ended up at Netflix, yeah. I would say... Good stuff. They have done well because I know people have like, many people might think three body problem fell short of their expectations either as fans of the books or is ridiculous.

And I understand that. But I thought it was a big swing and I liked a lot of it. I liked it too. But the story of it is not as forgiving as we were about that first season. And I think generally when you hire big talent off the back of something very successful, it's hit or miss unless it's, you know, someone with a proven massive output like a Ryan Murphy or or Shonda Rhymes. An example I was thinking of was like when the Glover Brothers left FX at the end of Atlanta and went to Amazon. We got Mr. Mrs. Smith from it, which I adored. But that was Glover dependent because Donald was the star of it.

And then I believe the only other thing we've gotten from that deal is Swarm, which was incredibly bold and kind of brilliantly executed show that was a very challenging watch made by Ginny Neighbors, their collaborator. And Amazon wasn't making that show without the deal. So kudos to the Glovers for lifting something up. But this is just feels, this is obviously a much more mainstable. stream swing, but it is a, I think it's just a win. We'll have this same conversation if we're still doing this in a podcast.

A couple of years about the Duffer Brothers at Paramount and about Taylor Sheridan at Universal. Absolutely. I pledge to you to keep potting with you until we get the first Taylor Sheridan Peacock Show. That's beautiful. Wait, was it in jeopardy? It's like in 28, though. Will I still be here? Like, what sense?

Like, I got a lot of history books to read starting around then. So it might really jive with my retirement. Also, Kaya's out here trying to get me just put on the IR. Like, I don't know if I'm going to be free to give takes. Okay, so big watch recommend to the... Really liked it. I will just say if I... To not glaze this thing the entire time.

Yeah. I could tell it was Budapest. Because of the regressive politics off camera? Well, I think it did a wise job of... I enjoyed the convention hall shot, even if it's obviously, like, digitally replicating... the first 50 guys into eternity there. And apparently,

what? Just replicating the first 50 guys into infinity. My time in the post-AI Hollywood trenches. Like, I just feel like this is a memoir. They've been doing that where it's just like, you know, the Battle of Troy. And it's like, hey, there's a million people here somehow.

It's incredible the way you do that. I don't think Wolfgang Peterson had that budget, but okay. I just would say there are a couple of scenes where I was just like, well, that's not really like a thing. It's not a real place. But I find the diorama nature of it to be effective. And they're not doing too much like epic sweeping shot of a city that we made in a computer. It's like pretty medium shot, medium kind of.

And again, we don't, we're not in the edit, I don't know what's always what's vis-effect and what's not. I'm sure we get some things wrong just watching this as we are on iPads, whatever. Maybe they really had a thousand extras in a convention hall, but they all stood exactly in the same way. And they all spoke Magyar. So it's a little challenging to get them to cheer at the right moments. No, but that that was one of my issues with Manhunt, which was it really felt CGI. It filmed in Georgia, I think it filmed in Savannah. There were some beautiful locations, but the old timeliness felt digitally added in a way that this show, I'm sure there are moments, but it was more tightly focused.

And also, because the writing is the way it is and the performances are the way they are, it's just making aesthetic choices in a more consistent way. I have to tell you something. You don't know shit about CGI until you watch this season of morning show. Just in terms of actors being in the same room or what? It's, I'll get to that. Yeah, yeah, okay. But there are also multiple scenes

where it's like a rooftop bar in New York City and I'm like this over, there's an overhead shot of Reese Witherspoon and Billy Crutop. Yeah. Slow dancing on a rooftop bar in NYC to a jazz band. No, no noise coming from below, you know, on streets. No, because everyone's because

everything's free now. And then either they have chosen to shoot it in a way that makes it look like it's shot in the volume or they shot it in the volume. It's one or the other, but I am also like, why? Also, why are they slow dancing on a rooftop hotel? Is there a moment that they were like they wanted to prove, like holding up a like a newspaper in a hostage video, they wanted to prove they were in New York. So they had Amy Sedaris in the frame, but she's Amy Sedaris in her Mandalorian costume because they shot on the same volume. It made. Haddon Beach? Like,

yay or nay? Yeah. There is also, I have to admit that one of the major draws to me for watching this series continually is analyzing scenes

where major characters hugely famous people or moderately famous people in the case of the example I'm about to give are just simply, clearly not in the same set together. Yeah.

And I'm not saying that it's a good wife thing where they're beefing. Which we, which was never confirmed. It's a scheduling thing. And I think that they are doing,

their best to be like, we can get Greta for these days in between Tron-Aries reshoots. So we will have her do this stuff. But this is a scene where Billy Crutup is also in the scene and they just can't do it. They can't make it work,

but they're going to do it. There is a scene in an episode I watched recently, this is the fifth season, fourth season of the morning show, fifth season of the morning? You're going to tell me that one, Doug. I think it's season four,

okay. I want to say. No way to find out. I'll find out while you talk. It's fine. You find out why I talk. Where Billy Crutt up and something very crucial has happened in the UBN world. Season 4, Doug.

And they're walking past each other, two ships passing a night, and also up and down the corporate ladder past each other. It's like walking and he's looking at her, but it's a single of him. And she's looking at him, but single of her. Single of him, single of her. And at the very last second, a woman with an amazing Greta Lee wig walks out of the frame, from two frames walks out of the shot past Billy Crotup, but I'm like, she wasn't there. I just want to know. I want somebody, please,

if you worked on morning show, the watch at Spotify.com, please tell me she wasn't there. And that I'm not spending all of my time being like, why is there only one shots of these people and not them together in a room together? You know, we really should have one day on the show as a guest would be a first AD. Because generally like, it's a first. Oh, the anonymous first AD. Just to be like... Like, voice... A monster voice.

But not to get dirt specifically about a show, although obviously we'll take dirt. What's the email address? The watch at spot of that on. Because of scheduling. Like what a modern nightmare it is to schedule stuff.

Now that everybody is working on lots of things. Now that everybody has positions that they're supposed to be delivering on and that because of the nature of TV shows, there are very few shows that have their cast under contract for multiple seasons. in first position anymore.

Yes. And one of my favorite examples of this is Aaron Pierre is on this season. Great. He plays Marion Cotillard, who is sort of the Sherry Redstone-esque figure running the network, or who owns the network or family,

Dumascahn family. More like Cheri Redstone. Every once in a while. Okay. You look up from your Robert Carroll book and you're like, more like Cherie, am I right? Still got it.

He plays her, husband. He is a art dealer, like art world connector for rich guys who want to get into art. He is shot, his scenes are almost exclusively shot in a gorgeous loft somewhere where women routinely walk in and say, make me a drink. And his drink setup is like better than most bars. So like he starts just pulling out Kampari and gin and like making ngronis, but has like all this fresh fruit to peel. And I'm like, how many women are coming by asking for ngronies? that these oranges wouldn't go bad. Oh, interesting question.

You don't think the oranges are replaced regularly? Also, oranges are, you know, shelf stable for a while. Are they? I don't really have any oranges at my house. You also have scurvy. Go on. There's also a major plotline in this season about Greta Lee's character developing an AI

to translate and to replicate like the personal images and voices of the, the newscasters so that people can watch the Olympics in any language and Bradley Jackson will still be their host or whatever. Right. But then that AI goes bad on her. Oh no. Wait. Well, because throughout the season she's been like...

You went bad faster than those oranges. There's been all this voiceover from Gretaley's character, Stella. And you're like, I don't know, this seems like an excessive amount of like random monologing from her. And it turns out she's been talking to her AI all season. And then the AI is like the true reflection of her like insecurities. And it's like,

a crazy racist not that racist but a little bit like racist enough to get elected to Congress. Maybe I was falling asleep but it was really

crazy because she's giving this huge presentation where she's like this AI is going to take us like they have a problem at a presentation and so she's like I'll just debut the AI

and she hits play and the AI just loses it immediately. Could you describe that scene the way Boyd Holbrook would describe one better

one of the major characters of this season is a podcast named Bro Hartman, played by Boyd Holbrook. Stop it. It's like a Joe Rogan slash Morning Zoo guy who is speaking to the manosphere. I never want to watch the show. I only want you to tell me about it.

And he at one point is asked after, I can't remember who falls through. Chris, who's like one of the other newscasters, gets accused of using steroids during her Olympics. So Boyd-Holbrook's character is going to have to step in and host the Olympics. Okay. Okay, listen. And then he says, I'll do it, but only if you let me host the presidential debate. And they're like, okay.

And then... Okay. Can I stop you for a second? Can you name the current news anchors for the major broadcast network? Because this show seems like it really puts a lot of pressure on... David Muir. He's now the eminence Greece of newscasters. Nora O'Donnell. Where's she?

She's CBS, isn't she? I think she left. Hold on. The problem is... She was just interviewing Trump like five weeks. you. Listen, move from news travels fast. On 60 minutes, but I thought she was the night person. Here's, by the way, here's also what's kind of incredible. This is like when we got to get home. Because a few weeks ago, we were talking about Down Cemetery Road, and I have a not kept,

I've got to watch the new episodes. We'll talk about it next week. And we were like, man, that one actor, again, no way of knowing who he is, is really tall. And you were like, how tall is he? I was like, I bet he's tall enough, Google, Google, Google. He's like 1.12 meters or whatever. Yeah. And we were like, no way of knowing how tall that is. I was going to do a bit just now where I was going to quiz you on the news readers, but I have to tell you, we remain in England. So I have a list of BBC, ITV and Fiona Bruce, Justin Webb, Ali Khan, and Stephen Dixon and Anne Diamond on GB News.

Oh, well, all those guys are going to be working for Trump tomorrow. Anyway. So I just wanted to let you know that's where we're at. Also, in the meantime, Bradley Jackson, who's played by Reese Witherspoon, who has been in like four scenes with other actors this season, is working with Mark Duplas's Chip Black character who used to be a producer

on the morning show but is now a documentary filmmaker and they're getting after a controversy where there was this whole Michael Clayton situation with a pharmaceutical or agricultural company called

Wolf River and people got poisoned they're trying to get to the bottom of that and it might go all the way to the top so just wanted to let you know what's going on a week or two ago you were like I got to tell you

I don't remember if this was on mic Mike or just as we were walking into the studio you were like, morning show might actually be good this year. And I was like, cool, I'll check it out. Do you stand by that or is it just more like, wow, morning show exists this year? It's entertaining. I'm entertained. You're entertained just hearing about it.

Do you have any notes on I Love L.A. or chair company before we get out of it. Just to say that we touched on it last week, second episode of I Love L.A. I think we'd both watched it in advance. I really liked the second episode. I thought it was very funny. The second episode did have that moment that gave me my one note. last week, which was the end where they are being, like, held co-costage by the evil influencer. Yes.

And Maya pretends to go crazy to chase her out, but then she comes back and sees that she's been made fun of and excluded and then goes live on whatever the fuck to, like, talk shit about Tallulah. I, my eyes glazed over at that point. Oh, because of influencer drama? Yeah, mainly because, and I could be wrong about this, and I also just could generally be wrong about the arc of the season. But it did feel to me like the kind of thing that is suggested or noted or even like dreamed up in a writer's room when everyone's like, you're in series, you've done the pilot, you're in series. And it's just like, well, how are we going to get some stakes here? How are we going to really like have the rubber hit the road and get some momentum here

so that the network understands that this is a show, not a hangout? I actually think it's a positive that it didn't need it. Now, maybe it's going to fuel all this. You almost would prefer like a more episodic, like the crazy adventures of these two women in L.A. rather than like, like, a long-running influencer beef that needs to get worked out over the course of the episode. I just, this might also be my Robert Caro in my Eames Chair era talking,

but I find that uninteresting and uncompelling as like stakes. I don't actually care about that. I would have been fine with the episode if it ended with them just hanging. But I'm curious about what the balancing act is going to be going forward and often a first season is figuring that out in real time.

Yeah, I love the Roger and Munchy bit. That was really funny. The show's really funny. I can't wait to watch the next episode. Jordan Firstman and Io. Being in scenes together was great. They're great. What is going on with chair company?

I can't do chair company justice the way that you just did. Do it like Boydol for the morning show? I can't. It's just that what occurred at the end of this week's episode, which basically involves tracking down a little person actor who makes his living playing

Scrooge in prisons and also posing for headshots for like bar memory games. They track him down at a bar where Ron warns a guy with a long braided ponytail and a massive dent in his head from some sort of metal plate surgery that he's about to accidentally dip his white sleeve in some cheddar soup. And then the guy gets really mad at him for doing that. and then the little guy's like, you shouldn't have pissed him off. This is a Coke bar.

And then everyone in the bar is on cocaine. And then the little guy says, I'll show you what I have on the chair company, but I have to go do some cocaine first. And then he robs the cocaine. And then they run away from a mass of people, including the guy who has now been staring at Ron, dipping his elbow in the cheese soup,

saying, is this what you were afraid of? Is this what you were afraid of? And Ron hits him in the dent to escape. And then, like, Night of the Walking Dead, they all follow Ron and the little person and Mike to the little guy's house where there's also a squatter in one room, an old woman who's yelling. Wait, not the woman, not the mother. They threw popcorn at a couple weeks ago.

No, this is just that he opens another door and there's just an old woman in there going, no, I'm not leaving. And Ron gets an iPad to the neck and head. And also there's a very, very large man with a very unique torso having an affair in the basement. When Ron walks in on them says the only way we're getting out of is that if you have an affair with her too and I film it? Does he say it an affair?

I think so. Or you cheat too. He's like, I'm a married man. He goes, you cheat too. I can't do it justice. I can't bring Boyd into this. For 10 seconds, I was like, this is kind of why I fell off chair company, but now I'm back in. It is so unique. And I have not even, and I won't for our beautiful listeners who need to see this themselves. It ends with something that I can't describe. And frankly, I've never seen on television before.

it is a very, very, very special show that we may never see again. Honestly, because the whole network might get shut down after this episode. God bless it. That was a great description. Thank you. When you run out of words to say, it's time to end the podcast episode. That's probably right. Thank you to Kaya and Kai.

Thank you for you guys putting Andy in the ER again and again. Thanks to Larissa for setting us up today here in London. We'll be back in Los Angeles next week. and I think what we've decided is no second episode this week. Yeah, we're stretched a little thin, but we'll go hards Monday and Thursday next week. I think that's really smart

because our circadian rhythms are going to be so sick next week. I'm not worried about the other way around. I am. I do well that way. Like, just for the record, I've been away for six weeks. Yeah. And I immediately have to take my children

to a school play that goes until 9 p.m. Like Friday or? Saturday. Saturday. So I think it's going to be, interesting. I would just like to pre-apologize to the cast of this youth production if there is just a man snoring. You think they're listening? Do you recap little people doing cocaine? Kaya, clip this. I'm so sorry to the cast of Agatha Christie's. I don't know what it is.

Okay. Yeah, I'll do my best. Thank you for listening to The Watch. We'll be back next week. God save the King.