The Watch - Is the ‘Mandalorian’ Trying to Be ‘Andor?’ Plus, ‘Daisy Jones & the Six’ Episodes 4-6.

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the news that James Gunn will direct ‘Superman: Legacy’ (1:00), then discuss the latest episode of ‘The Mandalorian,’ which featured a detective story midway through (25:28). They then talk about the latest batch of ‘Daisy Jones & the Six’ episodes and how the show is pure TV pleasure (46:14). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in the studio where he continues his clone work for the New Republic. It's Andy Greenwald. But the New Republic, the political magazine.

Yes. I have been trying to clone that for years. It's an indelible combination of stride and social commentary and surprising zags in the face of liberalism. Did you have that loaded for me? No. No. You know, every time I think you're maybe coming to the end, you know? it's like you have a whole new chapter.

It's a different vibe today because Kaya is, of course, with us, but she's remote. So Chris is running the sesh. Yeah. Chris began the sesh, feed up on the desk. I'm like Tobias, just dialing up the Aurora sessions, you know? There we go. That's just for us. Andy, today we're going to talk about the Mandalorian.

We're going to talk about Daisy Jones and the 6th. We have some news. We want to get tuned, not personal news. Although I guess in some ways there is some personal news, perhaps on the horizon for us. Oh? Well, you were talking to me a little bit. We can do this first. I told you we couldn't, but we can do this first.

Oh, great. Andy's really excited about a whole new... All right. He's got a whole new world of IP to explore. Well, he doesn't, but Hollywood is exploring it for him. So some news came across the transom yesterday. Why don't we always say the word transom? Because we're old.

It's okay. Yeah, but we're not that old. No, people know us. This is a comfortable listen. Okay. They get it. Okay, go ahead. That 101 studios.

which I believe... My guy, David Glasser. That's your guy. He's been pumping out, Taylor Sheridan shows. Yeah. Isn't Ron Berkel involved in 101 Studios, I think? I mean, let's hope. Yeah.

I mean, whenever you can have a guy with a sterling... Moving on. Look, I guess that 101 Studios, it was looking for its next cash cow and settled on the obvious... Because there's only so many cows out on the Yellowstone. You know what I mean?

That's right. That's right. Because I guess the... Lonesome Dove Expedition did make it to Montana. Spoiler. But that was a long time ago. But I think they're going back, man. I think they're taking their cows and they're going to Texas. Oh, on Yellowstone.

Yeah. I see. Not in Lonesome Dove 2. No. Which would be good. The next fatted calf, can I keep with a bovine analogy for 101 studios, is our old stomping ground, the piece of collection of IP formerly known as Spin Magazine. Yeah.

It's been magazine where you and I cut our teeth proverbially 20 years ago. Yeah, at least. So they seem to have optioned the entire library of the magazine to produce both film, TV, and podcast projects. Now, this is thrilling. This is thrilling. We have not yet received a phone call, and had we received a phone call, we probably would have had it go straight to voicemail. And if we had gotten the voicemail in one to four business days, which is what happens with iPhones, we would have said, we're interested, but only for AMC Plus, which is our network that we're buying.

But so my first question for you, Chris, is of all the many blurbs and charicles that you contributed to Spin Magazine, which one do you think is most ripe? I was wondering about this. You know, I still feel like my review of DMX's The Great Depression is really my crowning achievement for Spin Magazine. I have to admit, I don't have a lot of material that might get optioned here, because all of my stuff was just yeoman like young Pauline Kale just reviewing records. You, on the other hand, I think the funniest possible outcome here is if Nick Pizzolato adapts your Franz Ferdinand feature.

Oh, where I took them to Philadelphia's fame at Mouter Museum of Medical Audities. This was our job. It's so weird. Who's the dude who did Hannibal? Brian Fuller. Yeah, he should do that. He should make your friends Ferdinand show. Just like four nice Scottish boys.

always being like, it's a tumor. That's quite not early, isn't that? That's a movie. I think that's possible. I think, you know, I talk about this a lot, especially in the wake of Meet Me in the bathroom, but like, I think my expose on Brooklyn Rock featuring the A, yeah, yeah, as a band that lived in Manhattan, and opened with me interviewing the dude from the Liars at Great Lakes, a bar in Park Slope, a neighborhood with no cool music. That's not true. There was some good music. Our guy Anthony from Radio 4 had a shop there, but I'm just saying that's where I live, so I had them come to me.

That's not that you could option that. Sincerely, I do think you can make an interesting, probably relatively low budge feature out of the night in Chicago after a blizzard in a hotel room where I was with Bert from the used. I was writing a feature on Bert on the Used. And Gerard Way is there as well. It wasn't just that you happened to be in Chicago with Bert from the Used. No, that was not my 20.

and Gerard, my chemical romance was opening for the use before their major label deal. Wow. And it was a long night that Gerard has said inspired the song, you know what they do to guys like us in prison. Did he really say that? He has said that to me, yeah. Wow, your fingerprints are all over American popular culture. I mean, I try to keep a low profile, but yeah, I just can't help it. Well, keep us updated.

The zealig of emo letters. I don't know. Is there a deep bench of stories that you feel like, I mean, like Chuck's. features maybe, but I think that those have a carve out. Yeah, I think they do too. I don't know. I mean, like, the journalism was great back then. You know, like, I think that there was a lot of really good pieces, but it's, they're about bands for the most part.

Last question then about this topic. You know how in the right hands a single story or expose can make a movie, whether it's spotlight, a movie that you're familiar with doing imitations from, or like shattered glass, you know, obviously a darker tale of, of journalistic malpractice. Did they ever actually write an article about Shattered Glass, or was that just like, then they found out that he was lying?

Do you know what magazine that was about? The New Republic. Yeah, was. Am I getting that wrong? Isn't it called The New Republic in Mandolaring? Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah. I'm just, I'm just, just dunking on you.

But I think that we could do a similar story about the time in the year 2000 when instead of naming an album, the best album of the year, we named your hard drive. Oh, yeah, that's right. And it could be kind of like a money ball situation where it's just like a lot of like people in a conference room being like, how could we turn this whole thing on its head? Glenn Powell as John Dolan. Yeah, definitely. By the way, this is why I didn't want this story to go first is now we're making John Dolan references.

That's fair. No one gets this. Okay. We're done. We're moving on. Except for me, John Dolan. Let's do something a little bit more broad that speaks to like a larger swath of people. Let's talk a little bit about my guy Jim Gunn who, you know, co-runs.

DC with his producing part of Peter Saffern. Came in. It's like, I'm cleaning up this town. There's a new sheriff here. Sheriff Gun. And he was like, first order of business is I'm penning this Superman script. Superman legacy. It seemed like he had been penning it, but yes.

But you guys, we're going to search far and wide for the right filmmaker of the script. And you never know, you might find the next Martin Scorsese out there. You know, as we really kick every can and we open up every hood and just try to see where the filmmaking talent really resides. He said he might not be the best person to direct this film. And if there's one thing about James Gunn's scripts, they're really written for anyone. Anyone to direct, you know, basically just anodyne, basically blank canvases. And then Jim pulled a dick. He pulled a Dick Cheney where he was like, I've searched far and wide and the best person for this job is me.

I think the Dick Cheney reference is best. I thought it was more a Tim Robinson in the hot dog suit saying we're all trying to find out the guy who did this. No, I got to admit, this makes sense. He's running this DC thing. He should be the first one out the gate with a film. He should set the tone. Nobody knows the tone of his own scripts like he does. He has an almost, I wouldn't say inimitable, but I would say he is fully mastered how to make James Gunn movies.

I was re-watching, gosh, it was like Guardians. I think Guardians 2 was just on the other day and I was thinking about like, oh man, this guy really does, like, of all the like nitpicking I do about various like franchise IP stuff, like he certainly knows the tone of like his own stuff in a really, really specific way. I also think, and I know that I'm a broken record on this when it comes to... And I think it's bad how so many other things are trying so hard to imitate him. Yes, but I would also say in addition to the thing that he's known for,

I think he ought to be sneaky known for his oftentimes almost, mockish sentimentality, which he earns because of the sharp bite or meta whatever of the rest of the movies that he makes. And I think that I've been a broken record about this, but Superman is corny and hopeful and optimistic. And that's what makes the character worthwhile and special in my view. And whatever tea leaves have been offered about this project suggests that he is interested in that version of Superman. He is steering into it. I trust this more as him directing it. I think that there's been a optimism has not been a flavor profile of superhero movies for a long time. The closest we get is often a kind of a stone-faced majesty that you end up with something like, you know, my favorite film, The Eternals.

That's very different than what I think he's going for here. So this makes, look, we're making a big deal out of something that I think was a no-brainer. I'll read you a little something from Deadline.com, which is a website I go to a couple of times a day just to make sure I got my finger on the Paul. Superman legacy tells the story of Superman's journey to reconcile his cryptonian heritage with his human upbringing as Clark Kent in Smallville, Kansas.

He is the embodiment of truth, justice, and the American way guided by human kindness in a world that sees kindness as old-fashioned. And Gunn has already mentioned on social media that Superman will be younger than his 40s. So not really making this film for us. Wow. Wait, that was a shot

across the bow there. And this sounds like is going to try and find the very qualities that make Superman so eternally popular. That being said, I was kind of wondering, because, you know, we had this quantum mania movie. We did. Which was largely, like, centered around the idea of not being a dick, right? I believe to quote Modoc. Yes.

Yes. That was the... Are we over-indexed on kindness in superhero movies? No, because I think kindness... That's why I was choosing to go with optimism. You know, I think that that's a different vibe. I think the idea of Superman as the last Boy Scout, not the Damon Wayans Bruce Willis picture,

but like someone who is out of step with the times, which are trending darker or more cynical or more polarized, I think is a really compelling idea, especially now. That's how I see it. Okay. You know, I think broadly speaking, the non-modoc superheroes of the world are kind of Enough, maybe not to Sikovian children.

You know, I sweat that thing under the rug. But, you know, to American kids. I think this probably works for where DC wants to go because if they want to shake off the Snyderverse, you know, I would not describe those movies especially kind. There's something... Or warm. I am overly invested in a version of this that appeals to me.

I will say that right from the start. But there is a strain of DC comic storytelling that has appealed to me. which is less, certainly not morose, it's not dark, it's really like these heroes are titans. I mean, they're also teen titans, but I mean, literally they are avatars of goodness with their majestic backstories and almost godlike demeanor.

And that's kind of, that's different. And I think it leans into what he also wants to do, which is present what he and Peter Safran are doing as something new in this space, something to be excited about. because one thing we've learned over the last few years of the MCU is that things do tend to be better

at the beginning in these stories. And I think to lean into that is a very, very smart overall vision for the properties. And I wonder if some version of that obviously better articulated than what I just did is what got them the job.

You know what's interesting is this is not going to come out until 2025, at least, right? Do you think that we can sustain this clip of DC gossip from now until when Superman actually comes out. You and I?

No, I mean, like, obviously you and I are just have, like, fun with it because this is one of those weird examples where a guy who's at charge of, like, a billion-dollar enterprise just tweets, although I guess that's becoming more and more common. Yeah.

But he tweets through it. But even, like, casting rumors or this is going to happen or this isn't going to happen or this person's going to be in this, but they're not. That kind of, like, level of, like, information flow.

I wonder whether that's, like, super sustainable if you also need to go about the business of making a movie. I'm not necessarily talking about whether James Gunn should tweet less because obviously he wrote Superman movies so he clearly knows how to divide his time. I mean more like it's almost like the NBA where like the games get overshadowed by the discourse.

That's been my experience this season. Can the NBA, can Super Hero movies and franchise IP sustain this level of like speculation about like what's happening? Script leagues casting rumors while. I think it's a good question. It's unclear what exactly the runway we're talking about is though because the Flash is still happening.

Like they have a movie. They have some TV shows. The Aquaman sequel, the Colin Farrell Penguin show is filming. They have stuff. So how much of that stuff has to do with what Gunn is doing, how much cover it provides him to basically hit the hard reboot in 2025, is unclear. But I would contrast this with, you know,

the state of Star Wars remains very mysterious and in flux. I imagine we might get more news around May 4th, it's sort of become Star Wars Day, right? I bet we're about a month and a half away from some more concrete information. But I think that's a it's a very different tack to be like, don't worry, we're cooking some stuff up in the kitchen, as opposed to guns more transparent. We have a plan, and you'll be seeing, you'll be learning more soon.

Who knows which is more successful? We won't know for a while, but it's interesting to contrast those choices. This is a sort of minor thing about a show that we didn't talk about, but I wanted to ask you about the cancellation of Willow. This is pretty minor, in terms of what we've been covering, like a minor note. But just I noted with interest that A, so that Willow has been canceled after one eight-episode season, this is, like, for people to know, obviously, it's a movie from 1988. It was beloved in, I guess, almost a cult way, although I think it was relatively successful. It was a Ron Howard movie.

I remember it well from our childhood, and I guess it, I mean, its impact continued to grow because even our favorite reservation dogs, the character's name. to Laura Dannon after the girl in Willow. And I think that it's a perfect example of Disney's got this treasure chest of stories that it's already told that they're always trying to think of new ways to approach. So The Little Mermaid, which was advertised during the Oscars, is a perfect example. They seem to be going back and forth between doing animated and live action renditions of these classic stories. Willow is hardly like a little mermaid level story, but like many Disney things, has its

adherence and it has its huge true believers. And it's obviously indicative of Disney pulling the leash a little bit back on spending and on what they're making and on quality control. Although by all accounts, I did not watch Willow because I was never like a huge Willow person. But the people who did loved it. It's very charming. And so, I mean, the series. And the kind of thing is surprising to me is like you own this. You know, Lucasfilm is your asset.

You have the control over this project. I understand maybe having a new approach to how much stuff are we putting up, how much stuff are we spent, what are we spending on these things? We have to get prices under control. I don't know how much it cost to make Willow. According to Hollywood Reporter, it never cracked the Nielsen top 10 rankings of streaming titles during its run. I don't really know what that means.

It did receive mostly positive reviews from critics. I have to say, I breathe a small sigh of relief that Andor was already under. Oh, my God. in production. We don't have any insider knowledge, but every vibration, every sense, every disturbance in the force makes it very clear to me that if it had not been guaranteed, if they had not budgeted and planned and committed to a two-season order, it would not be coming back. It's hard to imagine, right? So do you think that ultimately, like, this is something that I wouldn't even say like Disney would regret because I'm sure, like, what is,

it's not like Walt Disney is sitting there just being like, I regret canceling. after one episode. He's frozen in a cryotex, right? He doesn't know about this yet. It is, I wonder how people will adjust, fans will adjust to a less kind, less gentle Disney. Well, I mean, in terms of providing.

It's just like we canceled your show. Well, it's a great question. I think there's three different lenses through which to look at this story. One is the one you're pointing to, which is Disney's cost-cutting like everybody else. And the big excitement of launching into streaming

And so are we. That's why Kai is not here today. Fair. Fair. And it's also some of our plans for AMC Plus that I don't want to get into today. But that era that a lot of these companies went through, it's like we're launching on streaming. So we're spending, spending, spending, and get everything in development. You're beginning to see some of Paramount was doing that as well. There's fatal attraction. There's Greas, Rise of the Pink Ladies. Like there's all the stuff that's just mining the vaults. All the Showtime shows that are just like spinoffs of Dexter and billions. So Disney did that when launching the Ploos service there with Bob Iger coming back. It's a convenient cover to be like, okay, we're pulling back from that and it's, we understand why. That's one lens to look at this through. There's also the Lucasfilm piece, which remains, you know, a little bit opaque. It's important to distinguish that, yes, this is all under Disney, but this Willow is a Lucasfilm property. There aren't that many Lucasfilm properties. There's Star Wars.

There's Willow and there's Indiana Jones. Yeah. Right? Like, that's the big three. I'm sure there were other things that happened along the way that I'm forgetting about. Yeah, I try to remember if there was like... I think they made some video games, too, in this. late 80s with PCs, but those are the big franchise tickets.

When you say Lucasfilm, that's what you're talking about. Huh, George Lucas. Overrated? Maybe. Maybe. Kind of lazy when you think about it. That's our policy on this podcast. Yeah, only three iconic franchises. Yikes. So it's a question of what that pod, that organization, that shingle within Disney, ought to be doing, how they're spending their resources,

how they're mining their library, what their priorities ought to be, is the future of Lucasfilm just Star Wars? Because that's certainly a pretty, that ought to keep them pretty busy. And then the third piece of it is Disney's continuing slight confusion as to what it's doing with its streaming properties. What Hulu is and what it's going to be

and who's going to own it remains an open question in Hollywood that a lot of people are still, this isn't me saying people are talking. People are talking about this. People are talking about that, yeah. Is Bob Iger going to sell Hulu to, universal and it's going to become folded into peacock or peacock will fold into this. Will it be called Hoocock?

Pilu, a lot of questions. Hoocock, I mean, absolutely. It's just the cold standard of naming. If they started a streaming network called Hoocock, I might quit. Quit your other subscriptions? No, just I might quit the watch. I might quit the ringer. I might just become, like I might just farm chickens or something.

A monk. Just like, what, Farmer Ryan, what makes your chickens the best? They are extremely wet. We have an incredible misting system over these chickens. This is aquaculture at its finest. We had so much snowpack. Why are we out of water again in California? It turns out Farmer Ryan has been posing down these chickens.

These chickens won't swim yet. That's your motto. Chicken of the sea is tuna, right? You would think. Not in this house. But Disney Plus itself. and this is not, there's not a lot more conversation to have about this. We've talked about this many times.

But what are people firing it up for? What can be put on it? And I think that Willow is interesting to think about. Like that didn't really pop on a platform that is largely successful, but for things that people maybe are already expecting to find there, be it Pixar movies or Mando or the Star Wars movies themselves. The interesting thing coming up, and hopefully we'll check out an episode or two and talk about it, is American-born Chinese, which got some burn at the Oscar.

and rightfully so, because two Oscar winners are in the show, Michelle Yeo and Keehui Kwan, excuse me. And based on a really phenomenal graphic novel that is definitely known to the younger members of audience, and ever some Datingtons and Mommingtons out there, can the plu service have shows like that and draw the type of audience that it deserves?

Open questions. But all of this starting with what's up with the cancellation of Willow, these are the right dominoes to be looking at in terms of what their strategy. is going to be going forward. Yeah, it's just, I think obviously, like, there was the promise of Disney Plus and the promise of, like, oh, you're actually going to get, say, MCU shows at almost the clip that you buy comic books. Like, we're going to recreate the experience of your kind of week-to-week relationship with these characters on the screen. They dial that back a little bit after mixed results and I think also some confusion about how those shows maybe connect to the movies and where the movies are going and what are we doing next and all this stuff.

Same thing goes for Star Wars where I think that they probably, by the time they get to Book of Boba Fett, are like, we're a little bit over our skis, let's dial it back. We've also got the Faloniverse versus the Andorverse and some of these other shows that we've been planning. So I understand a moment of stepping back. But when you're a custodian of people's cherished memories and cherished relationships with these characters, it's a little bit more of a responsibility. or maybe what I mean is there's more consequences to your kind of cancellations than if it's just like FX decides to not do another season of the old man, which I think they are doing another season of the old man. But like, you know, imagine if like Studio X just decides we're good, we're going to move off

of this. It's also a reminder that it's very, very hard to quantify what nostalgia means to people in terms of return on investment or reward. I think, to your point, people love Willow. People remember it. I'm sure there's a large percentage of people or not insignificant percentage who really are like, that's my favorite movie.

And I would love to see more of it. And I was waiting 30 years for it to come back. And they made a really decent show. I watched the first few episodes of it. It's made with love and intention. There's a Kazdin involved. Warwick Davis returned. Like, it's good.

There's nothing wrong with it. But did people who loved the movie Willow when they were kids want to watch more of it. We don't know. And that's tough. It's the sort of decision-making, and I don't begrudge anyone the decision-making for Willow. This is not the, we're not fighting this war on this particular hill. But there is, and there always has been, but it is increasingly becoming evident that there's a strain of decision-making coming from the executive suites, which is, if any aspect of this is known, or I can make the argument that we can get this existing audience, it's not so much

that this will make a good show because I think they did with Willow. But I think it's more, this will save my job and my plan for this company for one to two years. Yeah, it's the GM who's making like a trade just to keep his job. It's the, it's exact, you know, we do a lot of sports and pop culture on this week, but that is exactly. Yeah, it's not, you're not following a blueprint or a plan. It's like you're kind of like, it's self-preservation. Yeah, and even just anecdotally, I hear from people I talk to in the business that there is a lot of, boy, you were right about that, that really worked.

The thing you were telling me would work, but I was too afraid to pull the trigger on. But then the follow-up to that isn't, maybe I'll trust you next time and take a chance. It's, yeah, this new one you brought me is also too risky. Right. It's fear-based, and we all know, isn't our quote about fear in the Star Wars canon?

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and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save. at Whole Foods Market. You want to talk about the Star Wars Canyon? You got any more news? I got no more news, but I think it's a good segue.

So I think we should go with it. With the real Frankenstein episode of The Mandalorian. Yeah. In some ways, one of the most interesting episodes of the Mandalorian of the series, I thought. I don't necessarily mean successful, but the convert, which came out on Wednesday night, is essentially a spy story.

Some would say even an Andor-inspired spy story. sandwiched in between I say that because I just heard Midnight Boys literally use this analogy but it's like there's some mandolin in the beginning, some mandolourine in the end and the middle is this Corosant set

spies tale about Dr. Pershing who people may remember from the first season as the doctor who was experimenting on Grogu take his blood and inject it into like he's trying to make super soldiers or something right? We don't know. Werner Herzog was involved.

Yeah. There's obvious like breadcrumb trail that leads from some of what was going on there to what will become the First Order, which is the sort of the villain of the sequels, the Daisy Ridley sequels that we all lived through. And it was, this is like, in some ways there's parts of this episode

where I'm like, oh, like, what a, this episode of the Mandalorian is an incredible advertisement for Andor. Like, if you like the middle part of this episode, I recommend you watch this incredible 10-hour drama that is this times 40. On the other hand, I kind of admire Mandalorian for trying this

and for doing such an oddly structured and oddly timed within a season left turn. And it is actually pretty fascinating because, you know, Mandalorian or sorry, Andor obviously had that very specific release pattern. Yeah.

And they released their first three up front, but the story itself was told in those blocks. Mandalorian is highly episodic. But I feel like that is starting to crumble away a little bit. Yes. And they're trying now, I think, as we get into season three of this show, to start making the Mandalorian connect to some of the other major stories

that the Star Wars universe is telling. So I would say that I admired and respected the choice to do this, even if personally I didn't feel like the Dr. Pershing story was like the coolest thing I'd ever seen. You know, and I think maybe that comes down to execution. What did you think? I think that you're right to start by saying that the things that have made the Mandalorian exceptional and beyond exceptional just good were on display in this episode. And I mean that specifically in two ways. One, the fucking special effects from like space battles is unreal that this just happens on a Wednesday on television.

It's also directed by Lee Isaac Chung who did Minari. Yeah. Which is just like fucking amazing. We talk often and we aggregate a report that there's a crunch on CGI houses and people are just getting pixel fuck to use the term

that we've seen in print a bunch and you've seen it even in shows that we admire or movies that we like a lot. This show always seems to look amazing and that's a credit to the people who work untold hours on it and I also I guess the craft services down of Manhattan Beach like

I don't mean to make light of it like shouts to everyone involved. That opening sequence is unreal. It was just really beautiful and really well executed. I think the other thing to point out is no one would ever call the Mandalorian weird in the way that we saw the trailer for our buddy Damon Lindelof's new show Mrs. Davis,

and I'm like, oh, thank God. We haven't seen the show. We don't know anything about it yet, really other than what everyone else has seen. But I watch it, I'm like, well, this feels like nothing else. And I'm really excited for that reason. Mandalorian isn't weird, but it is idiosyncratic, and that it really is and always has been

fueled by the decision-making of essentially two people, right, of Favreau and Fuloni at this point. And that leads to some really charming stuff, like we, stuff that I found more appealing in the first season. And it also leads to, we're just going to do what we want here. And we're going to have an air battle with Bocatan and then we're going to do this sort of, you know, weak-tee lacaree for the rest of the episode. Cool. Good for you. Switch it up. Change it up. But this was like, watching an andor spec script written in crayon.

Well, that's another way of putting what I would say. You were being point. This was, the more positive spin on this is that these are creators not writing to their strengths and challenging themselves. They probably were aware,

maybe they've read the scripts of Andor because they were probably in production and around the similar times. It's not their fault that Tony didn't just eat their lunch, just like pulled their food rations for eight weeks. Like you cannot compare them and it's not great to compare them. But this came out after Andor, which set such a high bar.

And it set on Corrassant with people going through their day-to-day mundane lives. And, you know, this is me, the same person who just said that I think the production design of Mandalorian throughout is amazing. And it is. It's commendable. It's also very different. But it's very different. This is, these are actors just absolutely impressively awash in a cartoon.

And one of the things that made and or so incredible, in addition to everything else, because it was incredible, is Lou Call's production design and the practical thought and construction that went into every frame of it, that this is a place where people work in a building where they eat cereal and go about their lives. Whereas the Mandalorian is very based in, frankly, you know, a Star Wars movie tradition of, yes, this is a planet the size of Jupiter, but there's one house on it that Bocatan lives on. And whenever we fly to the planet, we just fly to that house. And then we fly around some cliffs and then someone bombs the house. Our house isn't there. Yeah, that was a bummer for her. But she just, she has nowhere to throw that leg. She's very cramped in her ship.

That is a thing. That is different. But, but also, I didn't feel that the story of Dr. Pershing, well, there's two things of major points of criticism. I don't think it was, the lemon wasn't worth the squeeze necessarily. Like, I didn't think his story was that compelling. and being like, I lost my mother, and then also my mother had a lab and I wanted a lab. Uh-huh.

Cool. Then you became a war criminal? Like, I don't. I don't. Things were moving quickly for my guy. Chris. I don't want to be this guy, but look, I've been this guy for a while. So, like, can you talk me through?

What are the politics of this episode of the Mandalorian? I'm going to try. Okay. I appreciate that because, you know, you do your own research. You know what I mean? Like, you listen to Red Scare, but you also flirt with Red State. And you keep people guessing. So maybe you can help me understand how I should feel about the New Republic.

Dr. Pershing, obviously, working for Moth Gideon, I think, right? That's the name of the Werner Herzog character. No, Mof Gideon is the Giancarlo Esposito character. Oh, right. Werner Herzog's character is Werner Herzog, as far as I'm concerned. In any case. The broker or something? He's been, you know, in the beginning of the series,

Pershing's like experimenting on Grogu. They're trying to, I don't know, build like a, So here's one thing I want to get clear. Mandalorian is set after Return of the Jedi. And now several years. And so now we're inching closer and closer to the sequels. Yes, do the Force Awakens. One thing I want to note is, I would personally wonder,

has Corosant just like never changed? Right. Like they built this like utopian city of the future. And even though we've gone through multiple revolutions, Yes. Corrassant just looks exactly the same as it did. Are you suggesting that somewhere in the Corrassant Times, there's an article like the one we read in the LA Times yesterday about the state of the metro system here?

Well, even if it was just like, oh, man, Corrassite, I missed the old Corrasset where there wasn't a city bank on every corner. You know what I mean? Yeah, it puts up with these space Dwayne reads. Get my space script filled everywhere. Chris, yeah, this is the Andorbrain. This is the Andor brain. And what we're watching a show that is committed,

sometimes with good results, because you can make different shows for different people tell different types of stories, and the Mandalorian up to this point has been largely successful. But this is a show committed to that same aesthetic that really bummed me out in the sequel trilogy of movies, which is, how about waves this time? How about lava? Just because you can do it doesn't mean you ought to if you don't have a story to back it up. And so Corrassan is shiny and crowded, and they have glowing space popsicles.

Right. Well, in any case, Pershing has like basically gone from bad guy to quote-unquote good guy, but what we're supposed to see is that maybe those two things don't have. have as much of a distinction as we thought. And that the New Republic, shout out to some of our favorite journalism. Marty Peretz and the whole. Well, so he's basically in witness protection or in some sort of rehabilitation program where he is going to start contributing to society and after some sort of reprogramming

is going around doing these speeches saying like, I really wanted to just help, but my bad that I was helping, you know, these bad guys. No, he was like a free thinker. and then he went to a university in America, right? And he was radicalized. He was blue-pilled. Now you're going right up against the guardrails. Listen, I just feel like that's what the episode did.

Like, there is a story to be told about how revolutions can quickly turn into what they try to depose. Isn't that what Andor is? Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's not just that Andor exists. It's that if you, it proved that if you go down this road, you have to go. walk it very thoughtfully and carefully. And so I'm not saying I watched The Mandalorian. I didn't finish this episode and was just like, you know,

I'm not recommitting myself as you did to voting irregularities in Maricopa County. I am just saying that that is a pretty big swing. Yeah. To be like, it's not a truth and reconciliation committee. It is itself a kind of fascist reprogramming regime. Yes. And that this double agent who essentially attracts this guy. Yeah.

After luring him with some biscuits to be like, why don't you get back to cloning? That's where you're your best self. For what it's worth, I assume those travel biscuits were stand in for the Biscoff cookies you can get on Delta, and I would also consider going back to a life of crime for those. Do you ever ask for two of those? Because my whole thing is like these things taste like they were made in 1997, so I can't imagine there's a shortage.

So sometimes when they're like cookies, you know, biscuits or chips or whatever, and I'm like, can I get biscuits? And I'm like, can I get two? Yeah, here's. And then I eat them. And then they are the crumbiest fucking thing in the whole world. And you're just like sitting in a carpet of your own filth when you're done eating biscuits. That's also what Delta, sit in a carpet of your own filth.

I mean, like that's what airplane travel is. Yeah. Here's my advice to you, if you ever feel guilty about asking for a second cookie, have children. Why? You can always ask for more cookies. And then you sort of point to them and they're watching the 19th episode of Peppa Pig and they don't care. And just like, it's for them. And then the next time they walk past, you are covered in just absolutely.

Cookie filth? Crumb detritus. You were asking me if I could explain this episode. I guess I can't. I thought I could. Well, I don't mean like

what happened A to B to C. That's fine. I just meant... Did he work for John Carlos Spizito too? Yeah, I guess so. Okay.

That was that division of the empire, I guess. Although that, you know, was continuing because all this business was happening within the timeline

of the Mandalorian, all of which is post Battle of Yavin. That's right. What's up, mouth breathers? That's still. A classic C.R.

bit from a week or two ago. I'm not saying it wasn't hard to follow. I'm saying it was pretty simplistic and then kind of writing some big checks just in terms of like what is happening in this fictional world and how we ought to feel about it. And it was, for me, it was a failure because of, A, what this shows core strengths and competencies are in my view, but also in the shadow of Andor. Look, this, you were talking before about how it used to be more standalone episodes, and now it's trending towards, like, there is a Trojan horse project at work here

that I don't think anyone's being cute about it anymore, that it's not just about this masked vigilante going town to town with his cute baby Yoda. This is doing enormous, enormous canonical spackle work. But one of the things that I thought, I couldn't believe, was I almost felt like they were like, we're going to do a live-action version of the Falloniverse with Clone Wars and Bad Batchel. all this stuff. And like, we'll bring those characters to life. And that's going to be the project of the show on a, like, low-key level.

And that we'll always have the din. Dinar. Yeah. And Grogu kind of like that level of attraction, but that we're also going to be starting to bring in all this other stuff. And it seems like now they're, like, turning their attention a little bit towards, we're going to have to explain these sequels. They are.

And so, look, here's something that I think people understand, but I don't know if it's often articulated. But can you imagine seeing the last sequel and, being like, yeah, no problem. I can explain that. Those are conversations that happen. Yeah. Like, how the hell did Palpatine come back?

Because unlike a Marvel universe or a DC universe that not only now have multiverses as canon, which allow you to play with other actors playing parts or rebooting or changing ideas, whatever, we also kind of carry with us and understanding, even without the multiverse, that this stuff they can just start over, that they can just do a different version of it.

We get that. Star Wars, which is often mentioned in the same breath, as the MCU in terms of a large franchise IP entertainment, everything is canonical and there is one history. It is mythology. It is not comic book storytelling. Everything that they've put on screen that they've identified, and even stuff that's not on screen,

whether it's comic books or whatever, especially in the recent post-Disney acquisition, happened and is being done with an eye of filling in the gaps in the timeline. So that is the larger project that's behind everything that they do, which is kind of making it agree. and taking, I don't want to sound like your guy, Ron DeSantis here, but trying to make history agree and work,

even though there were some egregious failures in that history, that's a tough one. Yeah. That's a tough one to do. And, you know, we, look, people listening to this still, people who haven't hit fast forward yet can kind of tell where I'm out with this show and where it's going. I am curious about either of the more casual Mando,

fan's response to this slow turn or even the hardcore Mando fan which is different than the Faloni fan who's like, ah, finally, Asoka and 4D. Do you ever think about how I guess unconventional this show

is told? Conventionally this show is told, like why and I actually am just curious, like, I'm not even mad. Why, like, they don't ever like cross-cut a story, you know, like, where it's like Dr. Pershing is here and now... I'm telling you,

this is the weirdest show because it is this, at once, the smallest. They just like hard cut. They're like, okay, we escaped from this planet. And now let's go tell a completely other story for 42 minutes. And then at the end, come back. And now we're all one tribe again. I cannot stress this enough that, like, this show is incredibly expensive. It is incredibly important to the bottom line of Lucasville, to Disney Plus,

to the Walt Disney Corporation headed by Bob Eiger. Like, this show matters. Yeah. And it is a huge, huge deal. And yet, one gets the feeling that it is really, being driven entirely by two dudes in hats in Manhattan Beach. And when I see a story that just goes A to B to C title A, B, C, and then it's done, my sense is there's no room here. You know, like, there's no writer's room. There's no one trying to, I mean, you could also be like,

that's just straightforward storytelling. And this is, it's not a kid's show, but it is a all-ages show. So that's more linear, straightforward storytelling, which is the vibe. But I'd be like, what's happening? I know. This show is not noted, is my sense. That's my sense. And I don't just mean that in a negative way. It doesn't mean that notes make things better.

It just fully feels like someone was just like telling you their dream. And you're like, cool. Oh, for sure. Okay. Yeah. Biscuits, you know, all right. Like, that's just where we're at with it, you know? But I don't think that Andor's noted.

I totally agree with that. But I also just. Like, with this one, I'm like, so he was... And nobody, Andrew was like, so he's eating cereal with his mom? So he's Dr. Mangala. And he now is just like an ID number in a Reformation, like halfway house. But on his off night, he gives TED talks about being a famous doctor. And these TED talks are kind of like, you know, cloning?

Maybe he had some upsides. Yeah. Yeah. Also, look, again, you know, earmuffs, Florida listeners. but I believe that the United States took in some German scientists

Yeah, a lot of people have made this point I think we can I think we can pump the brakes a little bit about on that I'm just saying what unlike unlike what actually happened

after World War II what are you so afraid of Chris the truth no I just mean that like there's nuance to this and the show could have

I don't mean nuance let me pause I just mean that that there are other There's two sides. There's two sides to everything. Look, did we go to the moon? Like, what do you guys want?

Was World War II a territorial dispute? This is probably not an argument that people really... No, I'm asking for, I'll put aside the jokes. I am asking, I'm once again asking for more nuance in all of my high franchise IP storytelling. Okay. And I like the Mandalorian, which isn't to say I don't have an appetite for the other thing, because when Mandalorian was a more low-stakes show, about people on the outer rim,

just trying to make it and get by, that was really compelling to me. That's something that you and I have talked about wanting to see for a long time. And it was refreshing because there were no Jedi. And since those early days of the show, not only have we had a Jedi, but we've directly connected to the show

to the most important Jesus Christ Jedi who made an appearance on this show. It's not just that he's a rogue Mandalorian. There is a Mandalorian death cult and a large planet of Mandalorians and the future of the whole planet and race being determined by a magical sword. And there's also a mythosaur.

Yes. Do you know that that's the name of that beast in the water? No. Mythosaur. Okay. Is it related to the space whales? And then, and then we are also now deep within the bowels

of the fucking New Republic becoming the first order and the rise of the Knights of Wren. Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot about him. Woo! Like, that's a lot. And you're asking me to put all the pieces together.

You're the puzzle master over there. Say Mythosur again, I dare you. Okay. I want to have, like, constructive conversations about this show. So maybe, you know, we let it believe for... So maybe get a different co-host. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

But, you know, it's funny. It's like there's a bunch of stuff coming on right now. Obviously, Succession and Yellow Jackets are coming back. There's a bunch of stuff coming on Apple. There's a couple of really good Netflix shows coming up. It's interesting. Like, Mandalorian has had, like, kind of a couple of weeks of our undivided attention for the most part.

and I can't tell if you're bailing. My heart has bailed. My heart has bailed because it's not, like on a very basic level, the show is, what it's communicating to me is that it is not interested in the show that I liked it, that I liked anymore.

It is growing, evolving, changing, doing bigger work. And I think that it's always worth adding the caveat that the things that it is touching and toying with and playing with, are deeply meaningful to many people. And so to see this, it's, it's vibing for them. I don't know that stuff.

So I'm still watching it just cold being like, can this be an entertaining week-to-week experience? And it's less and less than that. Let me ask you a question. Yes. And I'm going to try and thread the needle here. Okay. Okay.

So we've not necessarily been kind to this show in the last 20 minutes to Mandalorian. And one of the things that I think we just critiqued it for was, you know, what did you call it, weak tea, Lecare? And this idea that, you know, Like, it's not going as in depth as it possibly could, or it doesn't have as much nuance or detail or the characters are kind of facsimiles of characters. Those are all criticisms that I have heard leveled at at Daisy Jones in the 6th. Oh, you were segueing this whole time.

You guys should have seen Chris. Chris didn't even raise his eyes to me until he revealed what he was here. Because this hadn't occurred to me. And I don't really like doing our conversations. It's not my favorite thing to do them in relation to a straw man argument. even against a show. Right. But I think that there's also something to be said for people are interested in topics that

they're interested in and they like certain things that they like. And you and I have talked about, like, it would be very hard to make a 70s rock insider show that we weren't at least pretty interested in seeing the conclusion of. I think Daisy Jones rises above that. I've noticed that there's a lot of, like, tepid response to it. But I happen to think that Riley Keogh is tremendous in this show and that she, She's incredibly charming and charismatic and interesting, and that this character is, like, pretty fascinating.

And they made a television show out of the last minute of the performance of Fleetwood Mac Silver Spring on each one where two people stare at each other intensely. You know, third person is singing backup vocals, and you're like, this is the fucking most gripping thing I've ever seen in my life. Yep. And then they were like, cool, let's make a show out of that, like that moment, that energy. Yep.

And I actually think that Sam and Riley, like, have got that, that sort of tension between them, that kind of, that push and pull between two people who know that they're bad for each other, but know that they're good for each other and can't have everything that they want and all these things.

But I do also take the point of people who are like, this is playing dress-up, and this is somewhat a little bit, like, you know, there are anachronistic phrases in the show. Like, Kyah sent me a tweet, somebody sent about, like,

give me a minute or something? No, it was Daisy Jones's like, immaculate teeth that nobody would have had in the Riley's teeth are like... It's a TV show. Like do people want... So how come it's okay to say that about this, but not Mandelorian is, I guess what I'm saying? Do you think that ultimately it comes down to us just being like,

I like this show better? I'm happy to do that version too, because I do want to just advocate for why I think the show is good and we will. But in terms of the segue, I am a biased... I don't know how trustworthy I am in this. But I think the success of Daisy Jones is that they zeroed in on

exactly what you're talking about, which is the sparks-flying emotion of creation, of romance, of bad romance, of making mistakes, of being young, and of why you chase the flame, even if you get burnt. The details around the margins of that, the show gets right sometimes and other times it gets wildly wrong. But I'm not interested in that, because I'm not watching a documentary, nor do I want to. I can watch the actual Fleetwood Mac performance. They're not making Fleetwood Mac. These characters are not Stevie and Lindsay. And, it's smart that they're not trying too hard to make them that. They are trying to make a narrative,

soap operatic, compelling show out of a feeling. And I think when you start from that, it's incredibly difficult. But I think that by staying true to that as their North Star, it works. A moment ago when we were talking about what Mandalorian is in its third season,

we basically said, four three to four distinct projects all being worked on within the framework of the show. It is setting up for the sequels trilogy to make sense. It is bringing in the animated universe that Filoni sort of ushered in.

Yes, and it is also... Adventure of the Week. Adventure of the Week, you know, brand building on television for a different generation of viewers. That's a lot. That's a lot to be doing. It's also a lot to be doing

in the style that they're doing it, where they're not jumping back and forth in one episode between all those shows. They're like, here's 15 minutes of one show and here's 30 minutes of another. Also, to go as well, general as possible, this special sauce in genre storytelling, but also really in all storytelling, is the emotional recognition and connection you have with your characters. It's why Lost was

great and why Lost was ultimately more than the sum of its mysteries. And Mandalorian had that because you had an unfeeling robot man, not a robot man in a metal suit. I know the difference. With an adorable child puppet. The cutest thing of all time. And that relationship is why the show pleased everyone when it debuted and became a sensation. And what it's done since then is a lot of, hey, Katie Sackoff's playing a character who's important. Why is she important? She's going to tell you why she's important. They don't have a relationship. He doesn't take his mask off. So we just see that maybe they respect each other and they have similar armor on. You know what I mean? And it's cool. And if I had a relationship with that character from other media, I just might bring that with me.

Right. So that's also probably why our conversation about it feels a little more clinical or inert, at least I'm coming from my mic, because I don't have emotions about the Mandalorian. Yeah. When it comes to Daisy, though, you have emotions. So I did send you a text yesterday, which is that if you don't love the show, I don't know if I want to be friends with you. Not you. Just a classic green wall.

Just broadly. Reaching across the aisle. The broadest possible brush. The coalition. I have watched Daisy Jones in the six episodes of this show so far. That's everything that's up on Amazon. And I love it. And I love it so much.

And I wonder if one of the reasons why I love it is, I think you touched on this last week, it's really compelling. It's really entertaining. And it's really a pleasure. It's a pleasure to watch these moments. There's a, you know, I kind of feel like talking about it still from, you know, anecdotally or just culturally. I don't know if this show is popping.

I don't know if it's. ratings are what Amazon wanted it to be, so I don't want to, like, spoil specific beats, but there's a, you know, simmering in the background, obvious will they or won't they, and obviously they will within the band. And the way that that story plays out, and we should say, I haven't read the book. I don't think you've read the book either. I haven't read the book, no. There's a feeling that is just pure TV pleasure. Like, it goes back to why, you know, we used to watch the OC. We love shows like this, where you're like, this is going to happen. It's not going to happen yet. And let's just sit back and see how they tell a very predictable

story. And they tell it with wit and charm and they lean into it and they know what they're doing so that when the when the will they or won't they becomes they did, you feel great about it. That's something that is underrated, especially in a prestige television moment. I just think that it really plays the hits, which is a funny thing to say about a show about a band. Yeah, I noticed over this second batch of episodes, which I really liked. And I get to the end of Daisy Jones, and I will say that Daisy Jones episodes end quite well. So it's kind of like a secret ingredient of great, especially hour-long dramas, is that if you're going to sit there and watch people walk into rooms and talk to one another

for 49 minutes, like the last five minutes should hit, you know? And they have the secret weapon of the songs. And maybe your mileage may vary on whether you think that these songs are actually transcendent, like up there with 70s rock classics. I don't necessarily think so. but there's something about watching them come together in this faux real way that makes it feel really exciting so that the end of episode three when they sing Honeycomb for the first time or whatever,

or look at you now or whatever it is. And then the end of episode four when they have spent the entire time writing at Teddy's house and then they come back and they're laughing and then they do the song in the studio, the new song based on I think Graham's riff or whatever. It's yeah, it's Graham's riff. but the like, let me down, let me down easy. Let me down easy. And so, yeah, I think that these episodes are constructed in such a way that you are,

it's not necessarily cliffhangers, but you get such a high at the end, or at least you're so, like, you're so intoxicated by what you've just seen that you want to start the next one. Also, they understand, I think, that watching creation is exciting, watching, and hard to capture. There's an element of it, though, that taps into some of our most primal movie and TV watching desires. when you get the gang together to pull a heist,

you know, when there's a plan set in motion and something comes together. Like that, when done right, that's like pure entertainment dopamine. Yeah. And so these episodes, building up to the recording of this album that will bring them together

and inevitably tear them apart, there's that feeling of anticipation and momentum that is just really artfully done. And then, I think the show is really well considered. You know, I just think that... Well, it knows. what it is. I think that that was what I was going to say is that if I had one criticism, if you wanted to make it, and this isn't like, Don the Lillow's underworld. Like, I don't necessarily

want a 21 episode Daisy Jones that goes into, like, all of the socioeconomic, like, reasons and explanations to, like, how did they afford to rent this place in Laurel Canyon or, like, you know, these guys all escape the draft or whatever, like, you know, everything that you would kind of wonder about the course of these people's lives from the late 60s into the mid-70s. and I just kind of like the fact that each scene is basically intensely character and relationship-based. Yes. So whether it's Karen and Billy's brother and this sort of minor love triangle with this new girl, or whether it's the Cammy, Daisy, Billy's stuff, that's really what the show is focused on,

that and the music. And it's not focused on what's going on in Los Angeles in the mid-70s, which is like there's a version of this show that could have done that. and I get the impression that there's more stuff in the book. I would imagine it crosses paths with more history. Yeah, I think it's just like these people's lives are like sort of, it's not behind the music, it's behind the times as much as it is that. Yeah, and even within the second batch of episodes,

the band has a number one song in the country and their lives don't really seem to change at all. Right. Okay. Well, I think that there was something kind of neat, though, where you always read about that time in California, and it was kind of like you could get at. house in Franklin Hills or Laurel Canyon and it was beat up and it costs 200 bucks a month or something like that. But like it's there is a certain like authenticity to it even though I understand what you mean. No, but there's something there's something really beautifully designed and well considered

that I think as people who live in LA, as people of a certain age or maybe just people alive in this chaotic moment that is very appealing about the relatively modest scale of success. Yeah. of Los Angeles, of what life was. You know, I think about this a lot in my own life, but when I watch the montages of Daisy in her room at the Chateau trying to write songs, I am, of course, envious because it seems glamorous and cool and fun, but also I'm like, well, she doesn't have the internet.

She's just smoking a joint with an acoustic guitar and writing things in a notebook. And then they hand each other lyrics, like they're, you know, like they're the latest Americana at the brand memes drop on Instagram. You know what I mean? Like, look at this. Yeah. It does appeal to our broken modern brains as being more genuine or more compelling or whatever. I also think, and we touched on this a little bit last week, and I haven't read the book.

I imagine this is part of the book. Taylor Jenkins Reid is the author. There aren't that many music stories in TV and movies because, as we talked about last week, they're notoriously hard to do, hard to get right. So I'm sure there are examples that I'm going to miss off the top of my head. But I find the way that the women are written in this show. to be really compelling, a really nice corrective to the way women were written in other versions of the story,

including some sad degree reality. But it doesn't feel like a 20, I don't feel a heavy hand of 2023, let's fix the past retroactively morality in this. I think the way Camilla, and I think that Camila is fantastic on the show, the way that goes where Daisy and Billy are not getting along and it's brokered, their piece is brokered by Billy's wife. is lovely and felt emotionally real and true to me in the same way that Daisy calls.

Yeah, that whole party where the lights go out, they play lo-la-la-la. It's amazing. But also that like Daisy calls Karen to bail her out, the way that the, they built this organically, that from the moment Daisy shows up, Karen is kind to her because she knows what it is like to be a woman in this world. And I think that there are many examples in the world of women not being kind to each other. I'm not going to try to mansplain or unsplain any of that. But I just feel like that's a really interesting and compelling and it feels emotionally true backbeat to the show, that the characters haven't, you know, the Camilla hasn't fallen away as a member of this family as the band's profile has arisen, and they've only sort of run at that. The only, the note, I love the show,

I love watching it, I can't wait for more. I did think that the first time I bumped was actually six, the last one that aired, partly because it was the first time I felt rushed. Not so much rushed as the stalled. As the hands of a 10 episode order or whatever it is, is it, I don't know how many it ultimately is, it's 10. So at the precipice of success, again, I don't want to spoil it, but the end of the episode suggests that Daisy has gone AWOL. Yeah, right.

At that moment. And I was like, we got so close and now I'm feeling like we're going a little bit off. Similarly, this might be the same version of us that criticized the final season of the Wire but lauded the previous season. the arrival of the music journalist. Jonah? That one bugged me. Yeah.

Because obviously that's what we were. And obviously that's what we will be again on the big screen thanks to the 101 studios. Shout to Glasser, yeah. But that's not... I understand the role that character plays dramatically as a foil on this show, but that's not what would happen.

Like, let me just tell you, like, if you get access to a band on a bus or a studio, you're not like, so I have it on good authority. You're a real piece of shit. You want to confirm? Like, that's not actually. Like, more than anything, especially... Maybe in the 70s.

Yeah, but also, they'd be starstruck, or they'd be doing drugs with them, or they would be, like, you know... I just... There was a lot of, like, you know, the courage of the pen. You're right. Speaking hard truths.

Right. And learning about who we really are that is very, very, very much something written by a writer. You know, the writer... When writers write other writers, they tend to be, like, truth tellers. Yes, right.

You know, and so that I did. bump on that stuff in six, it just felt, you felt, but I cannot overly criticize it because I think the show is so artfully constructed and put together. And I'm so impressed by the way that it's been done

that when you see a little more overt like chess piece arranging, how can I blame it? Yeah, you know, I think that they've been subtle and pretty considered in some ways like Daisy taking the pill and drinking the quervo before she goes on stage

for the first time and four is a nice like, sort of like, to take note that this woman sure likes taking pills anytime, anytime like she feels any kind of nerves. I think that they've done a good job of like juxtaposing her and Billy

and like her excess and his sobriety. You know, and then also I liked that fourth episode where it's essentially like 20 questions and they get to that point where Billy is just like, I'm just going to ask you things. And you answer honestly and somehow our songs will emerge

from this like deeper understanding. And it's corny. It's corny also. when the bass player is like, I like rock and roll because it's passionate. But it's also like, I fucking do too, man. Me too. But also, it's a little bit more than that. Like, it's a little bit smarter

than that. The show, it really impressed me the way the show will do things like say that Billy is corny. Yeah. That he's not good enough without her. That she's just like, you're not writing anything honest. You're writing about your sweet love songs to your wife.

Nobody cares. Who's nice. But you're writing the version of yourself that you wish you were. I think that's a really interesting thing. And I think there's also... And Hirst and him being like, why are you writing about fucking kites? And why did you just say, I feel untethered? Yes, and that's why they're

complementing each other. And I also really liked that moment. I think it's in four when they're recording and they sneak into Teddy's house when they don't talk about kites. They talk specifically about feeling how awful the world is. And Billy, in a thing that almost feels anachronistic, speaks in very contemporary

therapist language, which is, which I I think is true. Like, you can't change it. You have to sit with it and you have to push through it. The only way out is through of terrible things. Right. Because she's like, what do you do when it gets too much? And he's just like, I get sad.

And she's just like, nope, not me. Why would you do that when there's magic things that make you feel differently? And it was kind of refreshing to hear that because these are young people. And that's a very familiar response for anyone of any age. And I think that often the art that we consume now is sanded down. So that when Billy says that, no matter. when he says something like that, the response would be, oh, wise sachem.

Like, we did it. We were once nine perfect strangers and now we're family or whatever. Yeah. They didn't mean to, they show didn't deserve a stray. I'm sorry. Oh, I thought you were talking about the fellowship of the ring. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what did they take when they felt sad?

Because Soron had taken over the urge. They put that shit on and they were, they turned in Vizzy. And they were like, now I feel fine. Actually, that, that ring really did bring a lot of trouble into their lives when you think about it. Wow. Well, that's retroact. reading of it. I should do that. I should go to Zaz and I should pitch

a Lord of the Rings but these guys are all like train spotting. You know, like it's basically like Renton and Sickboy. Trying to take the ring to the mountain but they can't stop wearing it. They can't stop putting on the ring because it feels real good. I guess that is what happened.

Boy, we've really shown I think tonight a true mastery of really like a detail-oriented approach to storytelling And podcasting, right? No, I think we were good today. How does Kaya feel?

Kaya's not here. This is what happens when she can't physically intervene with us. I think she muted us. I think she's probably signed off hours ago. Do you think this is still being recorded? What did you want me to say? I'll make you guys in next time. We wanted you to say it's a good pod.

Did we do a good job? No. You guys did great. You know you guys did great. Thanks. Thanks, we should mention that we have been, not intentionally, but we have been ignoring the return of Top Chef. but not out of

disrespect. I thought the first episode was remarkable. I really liked it. I can't wait to watch the second one. That's on tonight. I think we'll do a top chef

recap at the end of Monday show. Yeah, we'll do Monday. So maybe we'll get into a little bit of Perry Mason, which I know goes up Monday, but maybe we'll put the show up on Monday night. And I think I want you to watch Ted Lassow. Wow.

But maybe Ted Lassow fans don't want me to make you watch Ted Lassow. I don't think they want that. Do you, how do you feel, since this is the type of, I was going to say, this is the part of the podcast where we just kick around stuff casually as opposed to the previous 55 minutes. It's really buttoned up.

It's really tight. We got that whole Gideon-Rerzog thing. Absolutely. We nailed it, I think. That was awesome when you were like, explain to me what this guy's ideology is and the trajectory of his career. And I was like, here's the thing.

Did you feel prepared for that? Yeah. I actually, you know, the problem is I went through your speeches at CPAC, so I actually know how you feel about this stuff? What's going on? Do you think I'm a Republican? No, but. But I do think, I wonder if some of the CR heads are like, I think you like to keep them guessing because you make a lot of Carrie-like jokes. She's funny.

Yeah. I mean, she's not funny. Like, it's not like a joke, but she herself is a joke. Yeah. I think people know. Right. I apologize to you. That's okay.

I do have your donor history up here. And it has some surprising turns. I like to have a balanced portfolio. Do you think our practice apps of AM to PM are 24-7, 365 day a year, Perry Mason? Pod. Do you think they've been going well? I think that we've seen a little bit of an audience drop off as the day goes on, as the days go on. Did I tell you that my wife actually was on Reese's boat this past summer? See, this is wild to me.

And she was quite upset that I didn't apparently listen to her story when she told it. I thought she just did a boat ride in Brooklyn, but I did not know that she was on Matthew Reese's boat. And I apologize to her, and I would apologize to Matthew Reese. Can I confess something to you live on Mike? You knew that as we were talking? No, but I was messaging with Phoebe, and she was like, she wanted me to know too. She was like, I was on that boat. This is the most she's ever cared about the watch.

I was like, that is accurate. She was like, Chris didn't know. And she wrote, actually, he knew he just didn't listen to me. So she's spreading that. That story's out there. Yeah. Bad beat for me. That's also where I got your donor history.

By the way, she's the leak. But we'll be back on Monday. We'll have a bunch of stuff to talk about. I think that's guaranteed. And you know what? What's great about this podcast, which is what I think keeps people tuning in week after week, year after incredibly long year, is sometimes we don't have a lot to talk about, but we still talk. Thanks to Kai McBullin for producing us, and we'll talk to you guys on Monday.