The Watch - Is the New TV Pipeline Drying Up? Plus: Rhea Seehorn of ‘Better Call Saul’ on Playing Kim Wexler. | The Watch

Episode Date: April 3, 2020

Many TV productions on pause due to COVID-19—what will happen a few months down the road if there is no new TV? And what will it look like if all paused TV shows come back at the same time (3:53)? Plus: We break down ‘Better Call Saul’ S5E7 (24:13) before Rhea Seehorn joins to talk about what it’s like to play Kim Wexler on the show (41:20). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Rhea Seehorn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. We hope The Ringer can provide you entertainment and companionship during this time. So as always, feel free to check out The Ringer.com, where we're still covering the latest in sports, pop culture, tech, and media. And the Ringer's YouTube channel can provide endless amounts of entertainment. You can find that at YouTube.com slash The Ringer. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the wringer.com joining me on the other line. He's got his own definition of J.M. It's Andy Greenwald. Just making meals. That's all I do for my family. Just making meals. What's the last meal you fired up, Greenwald? Happy Thursday. Happy Thursday at all our listeners. It's so great to be talking to you. Today, very, very special episode. Andy and I are going to chat for a little while about kind of some new news coming out of the TV industry in terms of the production line of new shows. shows. We're going to talk a little bit about Saul, get some briar patch batting practice in there, I'm sure. And then I had the pleasure of interviewing Ray Seahorn, who plays Kim Wexler on Better Call Saul. And she was absolutely dynamite to talk to. So we're so excited to share that interview with you in the second half of the show. Chris, I don't want to treat you like a Republican senator. I don't want to accuse you of profiteering Moscow, Chris, off of this horrific

situation that's happening in our country in the world. However, it's awfully convenient that you got the queen of prestige television on the show at a time when we all couldn't be together in the studio. I'm just so... I don't know if Ray C.

Horne's schedule can wrap around your role as Howard Hessman. In head of the class. I'm just saying I'm not saying anything. It's more what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that you, you know, a couple weeks ago

invested in web meeting technology or PPE stocks. I'm just saying it's a little curious that you finally connected with the queen. The queen of this podcast. So cool to talk to. And what's great is that, you know,

we broke down a couple of scenes from the last few episodes. You know, we'll be talking about J.M. The seventh episode, seven or eighth episode, seventh episode, that aired this Monday, this past Monday. So we can chat about that. But it was so cool to hear somebody who, in a weird way, reads the scripts that she gets in the same way that we read the episodes that we receive at the end where she's sort of

just really interrogating every single thing that happens to Kim. And I don't know about you, but I'm getting a little nervous for Kim. I don't see any problems. I got to tell you. Friends of the cartel. Who cares, right? I got to say, you know, like our listeners, I watched the seventh episode, and I just think it was a series of solid decision making. Yeah.

You know, from a completely bloodless and passionless wedding ceremony, which was pulled off purely to avoid, you know, being able to testify against the other. Right. Which suggests that everything is nothing, but it's just smooth sailing ahead. right up to the moment when they begin to have celebratory sex and then Jimmy pauses it just to say, by the way, I'm now an official friend of the cartel. I'm a Linwood, if you will. I'm killing it in Juarez right now.

And then her response to that is, let's keep going. Yeah. Let's keep going. Well, honesty is the best policy there. I want to talk about Saul. We can get into the episode in a little bit more detail. But Andy, I wanted to ask you something because this week, there was a, some news came across, a lot of, like, obviously a lot of bad news, but I wanted to focus

very specifically on something that some people may not have noticed, which was Showtime made an announcement about their upcoming slate of TV shows, including the shy and billions and Penny Dreadful, where essentially, especially for billions, I noted that they are going to debut billions when they said they were going to debut it, which I believe is at the end of this month or early May, and then that they were going to run the seven episodes that they had in the can. So for the two months after that. And then they would return later in the year, I assume in billions of specific case,

when they could resume production on the final episodes and finish post. This is the first sort of practical example of something that we've been hearing a lot about, which was when the pipeline for new TV is going to be, interrupted, if not dried up. I've still seen screeners coming in from Netflix and from Hulu and from a, you know, a lot of different places. And I think that there are different shows in different stages of being finished. But this was, I don't know if I want to say alarming, because our alarming is a relative term now, but it was notable that this might be a reality that we're confronting where in some cases, these shows are just simply not finished and not ready to go on the air or not ready to complete their

runs once they do hit the air. I believe Black Monday was another show that's going to suffer this fate. It's the new normal. I mean, I was watching this episode of Better Call Saul that we were just talking about on the AMC app. And in between the acts of the show, there was an ad for Walking Dead. And I believe it ended by saying that this week's episode is going to be the, it's going to be a finale for now. And the rest of the season will resume later. Yeah. I mean, as you said, I think it's important to note that on the scale of priorities, this is low. for what's going on in the world. But since this is our purview and what we talk about, and it also very much does affect people's livelihoods

and not just people in front of the camera on these shows, but all the way down the line, crews all over the country and all over the world, we don't know. There is no good answer, you know. I assume that a lot of these services have a lot of projects that are already in the can that they were planning to debut

at various points throughout the year. There are, of course, other international properties that domestic services like AMC maybe has a co-pro that they could bring over sooner. But things happen really down to the wire. And I think that that's something that people may not have realized. I'm not sure it's something I realized, honestly, until I was in it. We have two episodes of Briar Patch left.

I'm still reviewing VFX shots remotely. Thankfully, everybody's working remotely and all the in-person work is done. But we wouldn't be ready to show Monday's episode today, which is kind of crazy. And we are by no means an outlier. So for as much as TV has changed from the model where ERs would premiere in September and, you know, still have 15 episodes still to show would be in production right up to the end. Things are still pretty much, you know, flying by the seat of their pants down to the wire. So it's going to happen soon. I think it's interesting to circle all the way back to the way you began that the decision is to just go and show what people have.

I imagine there's two tracks of thought about that. One is obviously people want content now. People are at home and uncertain and would love to see their friends again, whether it's billions or any other show that people have been awaiting for a long time. So that's got to be part of the thinking. There is a business part of this, and there's a force-majuring contracts part of this, which is a little bit uglier. That is something that's going to be happening more and more behind the scenes, which is to say

that there are shows in production. I've heard of this second and third hand that maybe had two episodes left to shoot, maybe three episodes left to shoot, obviously they all shut down. Thank God that they did. But the way that it's going to be handled is the rest of this year is going to be, their contracts are going to be force majeured, meaning they do not have to pay the contract. People's work is done. And with the assumption, or at least the pat on the back and promise that they will tack those three episodes or whatever is owed onto a future season. But as we get further down the road with both the situation in the world and when companies look at their bottom lines, we could come up

against situations where things just don't come back. Yeah. Where it doesn't make sense to do it. Or those number of episodes just, it doesn't, the number isn't what you expected when you, when you got into it. Yeah. I mean, there's two different sort of tracks to this conversation that I'm interested in, and maybe we can't finish either one of them today.

But one is the practical ripple effects of what happens. I mean, you, you've spoken really eloquently about this in the past and the making a briar patch about the idea of people being in first position. about the people who have jobs lined up not for the next two weeks, but for the next two years, and that there is supposed to be a very orderly transition from, I mean, just to even like take a look at, so Rosario did Breyer Patch and net issues now going on to the Mandalorian. I mean, like, people have their careers kind of plotted out to some extent. Mandalorian, not officially confirmed. Oh, okay. So I'm not breaking news here,

but the forces with all of us on that conversation. I mean, it's been written about extensively, yeah. But DMZ is the other project she's doing, which is really exciting, a pilot with Ava DuVernay for HBO. They managed to wrap their pilot, which is incredible. But, yeah, she did have a pretty tight window of production over these last few months. And that's just one person. I mean, you think about, I mean, you think about somebody like Jason Bateman working on outsider and Ozark. You think about all the, and it goes all the way down the line to day players, to people behind the camera.

So the ripple effects of that is really interesting. We've been seeing in the movies where... Oh, sorry, go ahead. You know, I was going to say, you know, it's not just, like I was saying before, it's also not just actors. Yeah. There are a finite number. I've been saying this before of line producers, of production designers, of costumers,

and people, of course, like in any field, fight over the best, or they want their regular people or their usual people. And if suddenly, you know, let's hope we get a green light to put things back into production this summer or this fall. The mad scramble to figure out the pecking order is, I mean, I'm glad that's not my job. That's going to be really, really crazy. And that's for the people who are lucky enough to have multiple offers to work, because who knows what some people's circumstance will be in terms of working at all. Yeah. And then you get into the idea of in the movies, they're already talking about how Sony has essentially pulled their movies out

of summer 2020, you know, Ghostbusters and a bunch of other titles. Top Gun, Maverick, just move to December. I'm seeing a lot of December, like, you know, the Foo Fighters rescheduled their tour for December, you know, movies that are supposed to be in the summer, moving into the late fall and early winter. That's going to cause a huge bottleneck of stuff at the end of this year, at the end, at the beginning of next year, and throughout next year, where it's going to create a completely different landscape. I mean, God only knows where we will be once we get there. And then there's the sort of psychological conversation that I thought. I mean, like, obviously now are overwhelming amount of choice in the world of television of what to watch is hardly like a huge concern.

But I am curious to see what happens when it feels like there is nothing new coming out. Now, maybe that will never be the case. Maybe there will always be some stuff that's been in the can that will be coming out throughout the rest of the year. But I can't imagine it's going to be at the volume that we were experiencing earlier in the year. We and I did a podcast a couple weeks ago where we rattled off, what, 20 shows that were coming out in February, you know what I mean, that we were all interested in? I just wonder, though, and I'd be curious for our listeners to chime in on this, would you be upset if there were no new shows for four weeks? Like, would you really be upset about it? Now, and if you say yes, is the reason you'd be upset about it because your famous, handsome aging podcast?

podcast duo that you like to listen to doesn't have anything to talk about for a month. Like obviously that would hit us to a degree. But I wonder, are people as, people have so much to watch and just endlessly things that they haven't gotten to yet. I wonder if people's, just viewers, fans, if their passion for the medium would dim if there was just a three week pause. My assumption is no. No, and I think that there's like a bubble.

in which that... See, here's the thing. I think newness is an organizing principle. Newness allows us to say, Better Call Saul, the new episode came out on Monday. We will talk about it on Thursday. You know, not, hey, let's just spend the next month talking about every episode of Better Calls Saul, or let's spend two weeks talking about the entire Breaking Bad universe and like reviewing it from a macro perspective. It's the newness that allows us to sort of organize our way of thinking about television. Of course, like, I think you could probably spend every day watching two or three hours of TV and not come anywhere close to watching all the TV. I've had, I mentioned this the other week about someone I know who's pretty high up, works in television, and her choice during this time

is to watch Mad Men, a show that she hadn't actually watched. Someone else, I know who's pretty high up in the business, confess that the only thing that he's enjoying at the moment is he's finally checking out the deuce. Is that Bob Iger? He loves it. Listen, Bob, hashtag Iger knew. No, and I think that that's kind of interesting because it also speaks to potentially changing tastes at this moment too, right? That period might be more appealing to people because you could escape into it and it is not, you know, I mean, we all know, there are some people like you who run towards repeat viewings of contagion. at this particular moment, but I think a lot of other people don't, and they run to a period piece, because the chaos and whatever is are pre-spoiled or controllable. But I will say, but also the deuce to me is a show that I was just thinking about the other day,

and I was like, man, I really liked it. I liked it. I liked it. I liked it. I liked it. We barely talked about it. I'm not sure what more I would have said about it had we talked about it more in the moment, but I liked it. And so it's these sort of medium shows that have been waiting there for people that might, you know, suddenly have a rebirth or it might get rediscovered. but I'll say, and I'm not just saying this as a self-serving work-from-home podcaster, but my friend who is rediscovering Mad Men texted and was like, no one will talk about the show with me.

Because it's so old now. Well, I have some Reddit threads I could probably direct her towards, yeah. And even some old Granlan articles I was thrown out there. But I think your point is right in terms of an organizing principle of just sort of keep you on schedule. You know, like people are going to be talking. about it now, so it'll keep you watching it. So that aspect of it'll be interesting to figure out. I can say that from my other vantage point, as someone who still has projects and development and is working on TV shows, of course no one knows what's going on and no one knows what anything will

mean or when it will mean it, but deals are still being made, shows are still being pitched, which I find, you know, assuring and positive. But basically the word that I've heard is that, you know, the only thing that people can actually do now is develop. Sure. Right. And the goal would be to have as many things locked and loaded and ready to go as possible when someone finally blows that, when Dr. Fauci blows the whistle.

Do you get this sense that the economics of those deals are changing at all? I don't know my assumption is that they are like everything going way down. Yeah. But again, I don't know because everybody's feeling each other out. And, you know, I don't think anybody has really any sense of what the next few months will, certainly. I mean, again, like this is such a elevated conversation to be having about the economy when, you know, everyone's life is going to be affected in, in ways probably more important than how much Disney Paloosa is going to be

putting down and guaranteed money for future projects. But nobody knows is the answer, but everybody, and this is true with all industries, everybody is sort of muddling forward, hoping for the best. They're just doing it all over Zoom now. I mean, that's also the third element that we haven't really talked about

was what this sort of scenario kind of portends for places like Peacock and places like HBO Max that were aiming to launch products into a much different world. You know, whether or not friends plays the same way in mid-2020 as it did in early 2020 is a really interesting question. I would argue, again, just purely fly-on-the-wall stuff, that for all of the sexy, big

deals that we've seen HBO Max make for interesting new programming, including our friend Patrick Somerville's pandemic show Station 11, which had its production interrupted. along with every other show in production. The thing that makes it to me seem like a smart buy, honestly, is friends and Big Bang Theory. Similarly, like Peacock, you know, was launching with the Olympics,

which is a really tough blow for that company, but they are also launching with the office and law and order. Yep. And I think that's honestly what a lot of people want right now. I'm sure you're right. It's just a question of whether

not. I remember I was speaking with Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg a couple of months back or whenever that was probably in the fall or winter when a lot of the, I think maybe once Peacock or HBO Max's slate was announced. And I was asking him sort of, you know, what do you think people's appetite is to keep adding these $10 to $15 charges per month onto their bills? And he, you know, we were talking about basically the difference between cutting the cord and then once you cut the cord when you put together a suite of these streaming networks like, what's your appetite for it because I think some people thought, and the original idea of cutting the cord was like, well, what do you really need? If you get Netflix and you get this, then you can save

yourself 50 to 70 bucks a month maybe. And now if you add all these streaming services together, it gets close to, if not more expensive than your cable bill. What happens when a lot of people really need that 50 to 75 bucks to say nothing of the $200 total that they might be spending on internet and cable a month? I think that that is more than that is more. than any other question we're asking, that's the question. And it's the consumer facing part of it, right? That it already was a tough, if not impossible sell to tell people you need seven, eight, nine streaming services a month that now add up to basically to your cable bill again, especially if you factor in then you're paying for your internet service. That was already a tough sell.

But it was also kind of a theoretical question because by all accounts, the economy was booming. And so it was the kind of question that would sort itself out in the arena while these big services clubbed each other to whatever. Yes. Clubbed each other out of the business, basically, or out of this space. I think the point now is much more important, which is people recover. If we, you know, let's hope that we get on a road to economic recovery soon in a sustained and meaningful way for actual working people in this country. And then regardless of that, do working people in this country have an appetite to just throw more money at services for, you know, old sitcoms and TBD prestige content? I don't know.

Yeah, I don't. It feels like a pretty extravagant question to ask. Of course. And I think that the reason why it's been coming up is because when I remember just a couple weeks ago when we first, when I first started working from home and when we at the ringer, we're kind of looking at the things that we cover. and sports seemed like they were not going to be coming back and anytime soon, specifically because they take place in large groups of people with audiences, and you can't really have these kinds of gatherings anymore.

And the movie industry was kind of pivoting towards home release and also putting things on the shelf for the coming months. The TV was going to sort of be the one, maybe not uninterrupted staple of our podcast, pop culture diet, but would be significantly churning stuff out. And this story about Showtime was the first time I had seen like, oh, maybe there is an end in sight when it comes to what people have ready to go. Yeah. And regardless of if things begin to improve in two months, three months, four months, like the broadcast TV season, I don't know what that would look like, just because

of their calendar. You know, they choose the pilots they want to put into order to series now-ish into May, and then they write more episodes all summer and start shooting them at the end of the summer. That's not going to happen. So there won't be a fall TV season this fall. Yeah. And what that means for those fans and for those shows and everyone involved in that. I'll add one thing to this.

This is both a, you know, you could look at this as a charitable act, but also because it's a multinational corporation, you should also look at it as what are they investing in by doing it. And I just got right as we were about to record this on Thursday afternoon, an email from HBO encouraging viewers to hashtag stay home box office by making dozens of series documentaries and Warner Brothers movies free. Yeah, I saw that. So you don't need to be an HBO subscriber at the moment to watch both seasons of Barry all. seasons of Silicon Valley, Sopranos, Succession, True Blood, Veep, and The Wire. And Ballers, son. I know, but I didn't, I was saving it to last because I kind of wanted to see if Liz Warren really did listen to this podcast or not. I know that she's the only person I know who watched

that show to the bitter end. Mallory Rubin and Elizabeth Warren, were the two people I know. And Jeff Chow, yeah, I'll finish Ballers. All leaders that I can and will continue to support. Yeah. But, you know, that is great for people who are home. I hope it encourages people to stay home. And I hope it encourages people to watch great, great shows like The Wire and Succession

and Sopranos. But it is also, you know, a not, and I don't even mean the cynically, it is a fairly smart play to begin to think about these shows and the Warner Brothers movies as a suite, a related suite of content, which is what HBO Max is. Now, obviously, Warner Brothers movies have for a long time gone to HBO, but I don't know if anybody was thinking about the co-branding there. It was just like, oh, Aquaman is on my HBO Go home screen now. Maybe I'll watch it. This is part of the brand awareness and brand loyalty that is going to be paramount, and I don't even mean that as a pun, because Paramount's doing it too, in the worst

to come. Yeah, it's worth noting that Warner Media hired a new CEO, Jason Collar, who used to work at, he used to run Hulu essentially. And that's so that I don't know whether or not that that was obviously something that was probably in the works for quite some time, but he may have a much different sort of remit as he tries to organize all the various arms of what is a massive WarnerMedia operation. Yeah, absolutely. Should we talk a little bit about Saul before we get to the Ray C-Horn interview? Yeah. One thing I wanted to say about this episode, I mean, it was an exceptionally good episode. I think that almost goes without saying, particularly because the season, as we've been saying

from the beginning, it feels like such a reward for fans of the greater Heisenberg universe. Because every season of Saul has essentially been a pressure cooker and builds and builds in this wonderful way. But the way that it's building this way is in the way that I think all things. fans want it to be, meaning it's the Kimmy. It's the Kimmy. Well, I ship them. It's the Jimmy and Kim stuff and it's the drug stuff that has kept people tuning in. And those are the storylines that are heading towards full boil. Whereas last season, the building of the super lab was Breaking Bad adjacent and dramatically just phenomenal in so many ways. But it was very much still a side story.

And so feeling all of these things that people are invested in coming to a head was really exciting. But separate and apart from that, I wanted to say this episode called out repeatedly already on social media for having some of the greatest shots and images in Better Call Saul history. People especially love that shot of him reflected in the building. The split, yeah, diopter almost, yeah. Directed by Melissa Bernstein. Yeah. The directorial debut of Melissa Bernstein, who I'd say is a wonderful and friendly woman who I know a little bit socially. and but what an achievement.

Do you guys know each other just through the Albuquerque, like, writer Happy Hour circuit? Oh, it's worse. We send our kids the same school. Oh, okay. It's not exactly playing soccer. Our kids play soccer with the dudes who do Game of Thrones. I'm not on Bill level yet,

but I actually met her there and then ran into her a couple times in Albuquerque, which was great, and she was very kind about everything. But at no point did she say that, by the way, I just directed a stunning hour of television. And it was really cool. It's cool to see that because you love to see shows that look after their family, basically, and give people the opportunity to try things and do new things.

But also, this is a really well-directed episode of television. And I thought that was really exciting. Yeah, this is one, Ray talked about this in the interview, but I've kind of always been, like, given the way that Saul started and the sort of the way it just was like sort of defiantly making its own road in the sort of TV landscape and in the breaking bad universe.

I kind of think I was holding out hope not for a happy ending by any means, but just sort of a less tragic tragedy. And I feel like that is becoming increasingly unlikely. So you feel that by Jimmy becoming a friend of the cartel, it almost guarantees that Kim will become a victim of the cartel.

I think that that is probably the fate for Kim and or Nacho. Yeah. I noticed... The collision of all these different factors. I have really, obviously, we've spoken very highly of Tony Dalton, who plays Lalo over the course of this season. And what an amazing find he's been. This is the first episode where he actually legitimately was, like, I thought, terrifying.

Yeah. even though he was, you know, charming and slick and smiling. But, yeah, I think that this was the episode where I was like, this is not good. It's not good that Mike's showing up at their apartment. It's not good that Lalo is obviously binding Jimmy to him, almost against Jimmy's will. It's not good that Jimmy hears cartel and sees images of lavender farms dancing in his head. By the way, the lavender farms just outside of Albuquerque are beautiful. Yes.

Would you work for the Juarez cartel to acquire one? After spending four months not on a lavender farm in Albuquerque, I would consider their offer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I thought it was a great episode. I feel like it's also worth noting. I have not watched the next episode, but Peter Gold tweeted out that he strongly encourages people to watch these episodes live.

which is good marketing, but also worth noting. I would also say that one of the times when I ran into Melissa at the Albuquerque Airport, after both arriving there, she mentioned that Vince Gilligan had just directed an episode, and it was, quote, a big one. And that's the next one. That's the next one. And I believe, you know, I didn't even watch the next week on, but this episode had Lalo say, you're going to go get $7 million,

in cash for me. Yes. Suggests some action here. I also, I do, I wanted to know also. And I believe if I, if I remember correctly, the thing that Saul screams at Jesse and Walt in the desert when we first meet him is I'm a friend of the cartel, right? Exactly. There are a lot of little Easter eggs in there. One is he starts using that phrase to, you know, this has been reported before, but I

sometimes I go back and remind myself, he blames Nacho, assuming that Lalo or Lalo's people have come to get him. Yes. When he first sees him. So, so clearly something was cooking there. The other one was the head of Magical, who we haven't seen since, since he kills himself in his one appearance in Breaking Bad. You know, so this episode did a little backfilling in terms of the closeness, like friendship closeness that Herr Schuller had with Gus Fring. I wanted to just before we move on, the, the, the Howard scene was so good.

And it was good in a very specific way, just that it gave us what has been bubbling. You know, there's something to be said for shows, I think, that hold back a little bit. Like, obviously, you don't want fan service all the time. But I think that that can be its own kind of trap. And you can kind of feel shows fighting the audience or fighting where the story wants to go.

and this has been simmering for not just the season, but honestly, for the entire series. So it was time to let it go. And I think that that's a sign of truly confident writers, obviously these guys are. It was terrific. It felt earned emotionally. And it was just a knockout in terms of the words

that the writers, Alison Tatlock and the other writers put in Jimmy's mouth, but also the performance. It was terrific. Yeah, and it's also an example of Jimmy sort of leaving port. You know what I mean? like for a long time the Jimmy character's main conflict was with the likes

of the Howard's, the people who didn't take him seriously, the people he felt like were undermining him, the people who he felt like were stopping him from realizing his true potential, whether it was Chuck or Howard. And, you know, to Kim,

when he says, I'm going to be a friend of the cartel, Kim's eyes kind of, they don't light up, but I think that she is so happy that he's being honest. it sort of masks whatever horror she has at it. Jimmy never says to Howard,

I am a drug lawyer now, but the fact that he's like, I travel in worlds you can't even imagine, and Howard's just like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? Yeah. It shows just what an exit ramp Jimmy is on and that he will continue to be on through Breaking Bad.

Have you flagged, I don't think we've talked about, and I think I'm right about this, right? that Gene, who Jimmy becomes in the black and white post Breaking Bad universe, is in Nebraska, right? And wasn't Kim's license plate, Kim's mother's license plate? She's originally from the Kansas Nebraska area, yeah, the border. Just something to think about. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm holding out hope, man.

Ray C. Orne, I did not ask her very many things about what's going to happen in the future just because I felt like she would obviously be like, I cannot tell you. but if you're interested in the character of Kim and if you're also interested in the way that they shot some pivotal moments over the course of the season, especially Kim's proposal to Jimmy, their wedding,

a couple of other things and she's really cool because she was talking a lot about how she, she will go to set on days when she is not in scenes and she will go watch John Carl Esposito or Jonathan Banks act. Does she know about the lavender farms? Because they are lovely.

We didn't get too much into Albuquerque, recreational things. There is one place and people who have been there will know what I'm talking about. That's a very lovely spot just outside of town. And I saw Jonathan Banks there like he owned it. Like he was always there. Really? And he walks around wearing like a guy a bearer shirt. His wife was with him. Both times I saw him. Drink in hand. Basically inviting everyone to say, hey, are you? Can I take a pick? Like he was the mayor. Yeah. And he loved. loved it. And his shirt was linen and just the lavender popped off of it. Like it was a lovely color combo. That's fantastic. Do we have anything else before we get to Ray? Yeah, I think we

should just say, you know, we're still figuring out how to talk about the world that we're in right now. It's an emotional time for everyone. It's a difficult time for everyone. And we like talking to each other as a respite and break from it. And I hope that listening to us can provide that for some of you guys who are our listeners and also our friends at this point. But there was, you know, and there have been many losses and there are many losses, unfortunately, to come. But I think Chris and I were both really just put back on our heels by the loss of Adam Schlesinger.

This week, people may know him as the co-songwriter and co-leader of the band called Fountains of Wayne, also a great band called Ivy, and then the writer of that thing you do. from the movie, that thing you do, and then has spent the last few years writing for Broadway and also for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. I think he wrote like 150 songs

for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend or something. He just was that guy. I mean, as close to a 60s brittle-building kind of talent that we had and just perfect pop melodies just flowed from this guy.

And, you know, just on a personal note, like, I still have, think about and have a tape that you made me in 1996. Because, because like all young, young boys of the species, like we were sniffing at each other and then like making tapes for each other because we had no other way to express our affection.

And on this tape, I mean, there was great stuff on this tape. I think Spoon's cover of Yolotengo's Decora was on the tape. Yeah. A Sloan song is on the tape. Oh, God, I just jotted down some of the classic Chris bangers. Oh, oh, rest your head by the Wrens. Sure. Which I didn't know.

These are classic Chris cuts. But you would also put Barbara H. By Fountains of Wayne on this tape. And radiation vibe, which is a perfect single, and kind of maybe would have been their one-hit wonder, but then Stacey's mom actually was a hit. Had been out the year before, and I loved it. But it was also the 90s and, like, better than Ezra. had put out a song and it was pretty good.

And so I wasn't really checking for them. And you put on this song that I never would have heard on this tape. And the thing about it is that it's also perfect and probably even better than radiation vibe. And, you know, so I think of, I mean, it's weird and maybe overly emotional to say it, but this is what music does. Like, you gave me this tape. And I was a snobby asshole at age 18 or 19 about music. I love to make tapes for people, but I was a high trans. or low receiver. I didn't want someone else to know something more than I did.

Sure. And you gave me this tape that was full of songs that I hadn't heard and were better than a lot of songs I knew. And it opened up this world of loving his music to me. And I know, you know, just by looking at Twitter that I'm not alone. Like he was a masterful songwriter and kind of barred of the suburban New York, New Jersey experience. And then finally, just to say like, a really good guy, a nice guy. He came in and played, Fountains of Wayne played at spin.com for us like 20 years ago. They're just such good sports. They came in.

I think they did Christmas carols for us, even though no one could watch the video. They would take like two hours to download a 10 megabit bite video. But, you know, obviously this disease is a monster and doesn't discriminate. And to single out one person that meant something to us isn't meant to be a disservice to all, because every victim matters to people. But this took my breath away. And it's just an enormous bum out.

Yeah, I do think that we'll probably wind up doing this more than once, which is really pretty sad. And I don't want people to feel like that this pot is like a bummer. But this was a guy that Andy and I both were really, really keen admirers of his work. And, you know, the kind of music that Founds of Wayne play, which is Power Pop essentially, is often the playground for the like, woulda shoulda kudas. It's like the guy, the people who never quite made it. And even Power Pop in itself has this self-image of, in a more just world, this song would have been a hit, you know? And a lot of the people who make Power Pop or are really great at making Power Pop are sort of lost to history.

And that will not be the case for Adam Schlesinger, even though maybe not everybody who should have listened to Fountains of Wayne, I think even people who don't even know that they've heard his music have actually heard his music by this point, whether it's through Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, whether it's by hearing, that thing you do, and they hopefully will go on to discover it because it's really worth your time. I love that Tom Hanks tweeted about him yesterday as well. And I just think that thing you do is such a charming movie. But the degree of difficulty there, a friend of mine, Gabe Roth from Slate, was tweeting this too, so I want to give him credit. But I remember when that movie was in production, right? And it's a movie, there's a reason why there aren't a lot of things made about music. And one of the main reasons is you can't fake music. Like music is so visceral. and so subjective and so personal to people that anytime you make a fake band,

then you better back it up by having good fake songs or else people aren't going to buy it. And so this whole movie was such a gamble because it was about a band stumbling into a perfect song. Yeah, a song that you have to hear 15 times in the movie without getting sick of. And love it the first time and then continue to love it throughout the film. And I remember that it wasn't like they knew immediately. There was like essentially a songwriting bake-off. I know they reached out to Bob Pollard from Guided by Voices, who contributed a version, and there probably were other names that didn't go public and

talk about it. Except his was like 42 seconds long, and it was called unseen emotion of the Carnival Boy. Parentheses, the thing he once did, which I would love to hear. But of course, Schlesinger wrote it and nailed it. I mean, it's the kind of thing that when it's done that well and it fits that smoothly into your brain and into the movie, you don't even notice it, but it's worth taking a moment to notice. Yeah, he will be missed. So without further ado, why

do we take a break? And then when we come back, we'll get into my interview with Ray Sehorn. Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I just wanted to make sure you were listening to podcasts on Spotify. Here's how you do it. First, search for your favorite podcast on Spotify's app. They have a library of over 750,000 pods at this point. So, let's say you're

searching for the rewatchables or the Dave Chang show or the Ring or NBA show. Once you find them, click on the follow button. That's how you subscribe. Then click on those letters. near the top of the app that's a podcast. All the pods you're following will pop up, separated by episodes, downloads, and shows.

Wait, it gets better. On Spotify, you can adjust the speed of the pods to seven different speeds. 0.5 times is the slowest. I actually sound drunk at 0.5. You can do 0.8 times, 1.2 times, which is my favorite. Everyone sounds like they just had a good cup of coffee.

And then there's 1.5 times, 2 times. And if you're completely insane, 3 times. Anyway, Spotify's app connects directly to many of the best automobiles in the world. It even has a car play feature that's pretty cool. Best of all, it's free. Download Spotify on any device and you're good to go. Should you be embarrassed that you're not listening to podcasts on Spotify? Well, I don't want to app shame you.

But the answer, unfortunately, is yes. Make the move. Listen to podcasts on Spotify. Back to yours. I'm so honored to welcome to the watch, Ray Sehorne, who if you've been listening to The Watch for the last couple of the of weeks, you know that Andy and I have been talking compulsively about Better Call Saul and compulsively about Ray Seahorn's performance as Kim Wexler on the show. She has been one of our

favorite performers on TV for years now, and this season is no different. She's been incredible in this fifth season. So, Ray, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. What an intro. You guys are always incredibly kind to our show and to my character and me. So thank you for that. Well, you know, because we've been kind of not only talking about the show, but also sort of charting our relationship to the show. Because I think that not unlike Breaking Bad, people have kind of gotten into Better Call Saul in different waves, both because he went on Netflix. And also, I think because the show has changed over the years, I was kind of wondering, because we were just talking before we started recording. Like, what kind of better call Saul watcher are you? I enjoy the show as a fan.

I struggle when I watch myself a little bit, so my fiance and I always watch it twice. And I should say that it's incredibly fun because I do feel like I'm watching it as a fan when it airs, because it takes them a long time in post to get it on. And you see how they reap the rewards of that, the post on this show and the editing and sound and mixing and composing. All of it is, it's incredible and an art form unto itself. And so I get to watch it as a fan seeing how they put some of these scenes together and also watching how the different storylines comment on each other when you're in it and you might feel like it's completely separate from a cartel story, which sometimes I'll go to set and watch those guys film just for my edification. But when I see it all together, I understand the commentary that's happening back and forth. I understand the push and the pull and the highs and the lows and the dynamics that they're putting in using multiple storylines that do sort of thematically or morally or ethically comment on each other.

So I watch it like a fan that time. But because I'm so anxious and nervous the first time my fiancé and I always watch it a second time when I'm a little calmer. Okay. So the anxiety comes more from just like when you see yourself on screen and kind of analyzing different things that have seen. Yeah, and what I could have done better and this, that, and the other. And then sometimes not even, it doesn't even have to be negative. Sometimes it's just very interested from every angle of filmmaking. Like, oh, okay, wow, they use that take.

Oh, I understand. Oh, okay. So Michael Morris, I see why he chose maybe a different take than I was thinking he was going to choose of mine. It's because it fits this arc or that arc better. And how things are cut is really interesting for me to watch. What music and sound and music super. vision does to things, how they do the montages. Those are things that take full days sometimes to shoot all the tiny pieces and then it's three to eight minutes on screen. So sometimes I'm just

literally watching it fascinated by the artistry and the technical skill going on. But yeah, some of it's negative. Sometimes it's just like, oh my God, it's that big dumb face again. Why is she always on? So I have to get past that. So when you go and in the past, when you've gone and watched John Carlo or I don't know if you got to see any scenes with Tony Dalton this season, are you doing that because you're just curious as an actor? Are you doing that because you think it informs your performance as Kim in a different way than if you were almost blissfully ignorant as to what's happening outside of Kim's field of vision? It's more, you know, and I should also say for the previous question, I also have a lot of anxiety just because the show gives me agita.

Like I still, I feel I have agita when I read the script. Yeah. Yeah. Even when I know what's going to happen, it's just like it's so, my shoulders are up by my ears and then you'll have like this seemingly quiet moment or even a humor moment and their ability to switch tone and even switch genre-ish in some ways. Sometimes it just, it's this experience that you just kind of have to roll with. And I feel breathless after them.

And it feels that way shooting them. that way reading them and then it feels that way multiplied when I'm watching them. So I, in answer to your next question, I go to set and watch as often as I possibly can other people's scenes for me as an actor and me as a human being, not for Kim, because I'm relatively good at doing my homework on what Kim would know and what she wouldn't know. I mean, one of the big things I have to remind myself all the time and sometimes fans forget when they're like, why is she doing this though? And I'm like, Kim hasn't seen Breaking Bad. Kim is only seeing this Jimmy transformation into Saul one event at a time. And yes, she's smart enough to see the writing on the wall in

some ways. But for her to have, for her to surmise that Breaking Bad happens, no, I don't think that's what she's envisioning and certainly hasn't been for five seasons prior, or four and a half seasons prior. So I go to set and watch because one, it's a free Masterclass. in acting, writing, directing, DPM, lighting, camera work. And if I've done my homework and there isn't a flight to come home to see my family in time to get back to shoot, I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. And number two, some actors are better at sort of dropping in and dropping out, like needing to go do something else and then they come back.

And it's not a thing where I need to stay in character and I'm walking around in my costume on my days off. But for me, every show, every script, whether it's play or TV or film, has a certain musicality. And it's one of the ways I work on scripts and script analysis is thinking about the musicality of it. And this show has a very particular music to it. And it, for me, it operates just a little bit outside of total naturalism and realism.

There's something just smidgey poetic in it. and in the dialogue and in the direction of it. And so it's kind of one of those things where if somebody asked you to sing a song, Acapello, or do an accent, you'd say, can I hear it in my ear right before I do it? And so I like listening and watching this tone and then doing my,

and then if I have a scene the next morning, it's easier for me to have heard that music the day before than to have watched a show that has a completely different musicality. Oh, that makes total sense. And I think you can actually see, I mean, obviously not, I don't have any insider knowledge as to whether or not other actors are doing what you're doing. But one of the great things about the show, even in its latter years, seems to be that even when you add a Tony Dalton or a Barry Corbyn, they seem to be in the same key as the rest of the orchestra. Yes. And most of those people, when they come, they say that they either they already were watching the show or they methodically binge watch it and study it.

And, but that being said, there are plenty of brilliant actors on our show that don't have the time to, you know, either family obligations or they're in almost every scene like Bob that can't. Bob comes and watches when he can, but there are plenty of brilliant actors who are able to remember and use sense memory of a show's tone and not need to sit on set. That's just, it's just for me a thing that if I have the ability to do so, I prefer it. And then also, like I said, I'm a fan. The fact that I've seen some of these brilliant scenes live is a gift I won't forget. I feel like I'm talking to you at both an opportune moment in terms of like where we are in the season. So episode seven obviously just aired on Monday and this interview will be going up on Thursday. But also like- Oh, right was it too. Alison Tatlock wrote it and Melissa Bernstein's first time directing. Can you believe that? I was wondering whether not she had ever directed a Breaking Bad that I had forgotten. Nope. This was her very first directing debut.

Oh, that's so cool. So what was like, did she have a different touch than you'd been used to on Saul from previous experiences? Or like, what was that like? Well, she's been an executive producer with a heavy bent towards creative, the creativity. Like, she weighs in on that too. She's not just a technical person the whole time and before it on breaking that as well. So I'm used to her in that way. I'm also friends with her at this point and love her. input on stories. So I was expecting her to be as great as she was. All of our directors are slightly, just slightly different in their approaches to things or their process, but they're all also of a piece. They're all of a family. It's very clear to me why each of them is hired to do our particular show. They have a vested interest in storytelling in character voice and allowing the kind of space for a performance that we are used to where you are allowed to do pauses and you feel protected in trying to play the scene 30 different ways until you find what's the best

sort of windy path through the scene. They're all, they all come that way with an incredible respect for the actors and also an incredible respect for the script. The script is king on our set. There are no two ways about it. It's everything and there's a reason why and it's very clear. I imagine that comes in very useful because one of the things I wanted to ask you about is the sort of whatever happens between Wexler versus Goodman and JMMM so that would be between the sixth and seventh episode but essentially between Kim's proposal and then the actual wedding where I was kind of curious about we get to see sort of Jimmy explaining to Kuhl well this is about deniability and this is about protecting Kim with with friends.

legal, but we don't really hear Kim's rationale. I mean, you can watch it and you can believe Kim agrees completely with Jimmy, or you can believe like she has different motivations between that. For you, do you do you do a lot of filling in the blanks in between the pages in terms of like, well, what, what's it like from Kim from the night that she proposes to the morning that they actually go through with it? I do. I do fill in everything. It's a part of my process. that I rely on and it's also a part of my process that I am obsessively passionate about. I, in the broadest terms, I would call it given circumstances coming from practical aesthetics, acting techniques, which is what I started in.

And they have a whole idea of like what happened before, what happened in between, where are you coming from, what's your mindset, have you been up all night, what are you thinking about, what was discussed right before this? I think about all those things right before I go into the scene. And by the way, for anybody listening at Axe, it's one of your best shields against nerves, which I still get. I get stage fright and nervousness. And when you have to start going down a checklist of the given circumstances before you enter a scene, and then you get into like super specific, like, are you cold, are you hot, do these shoes hurt? Is this a suit she's always worn?

Does she pick it especially for the wedding? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Have I ever seen this woman that's handing me our licenses back? Your brain, your ram's face is so full that you can't be, you can't be nervous. You can be nervous, yeah. But so, yeah, I thought about all that stuff.

For my money, I feel like she probably presented to Jimmy what he presents to Huell when we go out of six. Okay. my money. I filled in some other thoughts too, but I based that on the fact that she is so project-oriented and pragmatic and stereotypical types. She's the more male and he's the more female, which I've always enjoyed that sort of flip-flop in this way that he wants to discuss everything and he's emotional about things and she's sort of like, let's just fix it. Just tell me the problems that we'll figure out a solution. And that kind of compartmentalizing and not wanting to

sit in feelings and issues that have no real solution used to be an asset for her and increasingly is a dangerous flaw. And in this case, I think that's exactly what happened in that last scene and sex is she just, she cannot deal with the fact that there is no clear black and white answer to how she emotionally feels. So she tries to logic it out. Yeah. And it feels like in Jimmy she's met somebody who applies pressure to that point in almost every single way. Yeah, I mean, you could make the case that people only bring out in you what you already had in you. Sure.

That's one of the main themes that I find fascinating in the whole series and it's individual character, but it's also a story, that idea of innate versus innate behavior and intrinsic qualities versus extrinsic qualities. Who are you when you're alone? Who are you only because of the people you've known in your life and all. those questions I think are at the forefront right now with her character. Yeah, I mean, and I think the reason why it's been so much, I mean, fun is, I'm using that as like a loose term. I mean, fascinating. It is probably better. It is fun. And I tell people that all the time when they're

like, how is this scene or this scene? And they pick some difficult looking scene. And I tell them incredibly challenging and blissfully so. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. Because it is fun. Well, because I was going to ask you about some, I think that scenes that for, especially for real, like, hardcore fans have become kind of, they're holding onto them real tight now, especially as things feel like they're getting pretty real on the show. And those are the moments of, like, kind of domestic intimacy between you and Jimmy.

And I know what people love kind of tracking what movies you guys are watching. But I also really enjoy just, like, how you guys navigate a cramped apartment or what you're eating on any given night or, you know, what Jimmy changes into versus what you change into. And, like, how long it takes Jimmy to put his pants on and stuff like that. I love it.

How much prep and staging and stuff goes into even those little gestures? Because I think we're so trained to think of like Battle of the Bastards and Game of Thrones is what you have to have like staging for. But I would imagine even Thai food and movies takes a lot of like prep. It's a lot of prep. It's a lot of prep. When you, the first scene, no, sorry, first episode of this season. season after they've come back from the courthouse and she is sort of circling, trying to figure out a way how to talk to him about what's this deal with you changing your name and

what does that actually mean to you? What does it mean to us? And I love that scene because she does not launch into saying like, you're making a big mistake because Kim is not in the habit of telling him, I want you to be what I want you to be. It's more, I'm trying to help you be what you said you wanted to be. You said you wanted to seat at the big kids table. You said you wanted to be taken seriously. You said that you keep getting pushed out of, you know, the adult conversation and the move

you're making is not going to help that journey. So what's going on? And she's trying to figure it out. But they are eating, opening a present, finishing eating, opening a present, and then cleaning up and going back and forth with different items. and they cut a version where we went back and forth one more time and then he's getting ice cream and I'm throwing trash away. The reset was insane.

And our crew is so, so talented. And so you have everything there to begin with. The big argument scene that I had with Jimmy where I end up proposing to him, I decided none of that was blocked. We didn't know if like, are you going to come into the room and just have a huge fight with him at the door, the second you see him playing this guitar. And so, you know, you're looking,

you're thinking about it technically of like, well, that's not very dynamic to watch, but also let the character and the story inform that. And so for me, I talked to Michael Morris, and that was Tom Schnauz's script. I'm jumping to that other episode. But I bring it up because there was wine in the cabinet. And I chose to go over there to a glass of wine,

you know, and the props is on top of it. They're like, okay, the wine glasses in one other episode, have lived here and here. So it's plausible they would be in this cabinet. And the wine bottle, it's what's the last time? And people are like on it with laptops showing a photo of the last time we ever saw a wine bottle on the counter. Where was it?

Could it have moved? How many days has it been since? It's a lot that goes into just the practicality of it. And then acting-wise, they are really rewarding scenes when we're just hanging out, the toothbrushing scenes, the eating scenes, the watching television scenes, the watching television. television together because because everyone does all this incredible work to set Bob and I up to do

whatever when we want to play and we Bob and I will run the lines ad nauseum as does all of our cast members and it's a huge compliment that people think that we're improving a lot of the times the toothbrushing things scenes when he says guess what I floss with and I laugh people still think it's improv Tom wrote that one as well but they're all written all these little azz and wells they're all written. And then we get to play with tempo and punctuation and where's the pause and where's the subtext? And did you actually mean that? And how do you say your next line versus, or not versus, but depending upon how Bob said his line to me,

it informs how I say my next one and what's underneath all of it. And if somebody says, what movie do you want to want to, what do you want to eat? By the time you're in a relationship that long, there are no lines that don't have subtext because does your partner always pick shitty movies? Does your partner keep taking Thai food? Are you happy? Do you really want to know the answer to that? Or are you politely asking and hoping they say it's your turn?

It's all informing that. But they're small. These are micro decisions. And Bob and I love this little game of figuring out like, how small can you be about it? And I don't mean doing nothing. Do all your homework. But then how close to just being human can you be with 300 people around you filming? So we have a good time.

You know, you're talking about how often and how, oh, sir, the repetition of running lines with Bob, I was wondering about a very specific moment in their near breakup where you're kind of, you're saying, you know, we can, I'm paraphrasing, but you could, we can sort of end this now and feel like basically look fondly on what we had. And Bob claps. Like he, he says no and he like claps really hard. Like he's trying to stop it. Was that something that was like in every.

Or was that something that just happened in the moment? It was in many takes, but not all of them. And it was not scripted. And I'm trying to remember. I believe he started doing it when I started getting a catch in my voice. And I would say, enjoy the time we had. I think Kim is fighting to not fall apart there. And I feel like that's when he started doing the clap,

which doesn't mean I'm giving myself credit. I'm giving him credit for constantly, being in the moment and he is to like respond when he realizes Kim is this is not an argument that's going to blow over and she's not a woman that falls apart very easily and she definitely doesn't stand around crying often so this is bad this is really bad I've done that clap I've done the clap it was amazing I was like holy shit I've really like been in been in it with a partner and been like wait wait wait like let's let's hit rewind 30 yeah at that moment when you realize like, oh, oh, this is, oh, this is a breakup conversation.

Yeah. Oh, shit. And even the beginning of that scene, I think we've all been there, too. She is at such a point where, like, I want to rip your head off that I think she would have preferred to have a glass of wine and go to bed and he won't stop needling her. Which is why I decided to play this sort of like very controlled tone in my lines and very still and I'm going to go to the bedroom and I'm going to get my sweatpants on and I'm getting a glass of wine.

And if I have to look at your face, I'm going to punch you or break up. And he is doing that thing that we've also all done where you're like, I wonder if there's any way that I could talk my partner out of being this mad? Like, can I spin this in some other way? And they actually decided we very rarely do dueling coverage, which if any of your listeners don't know what that means. Like normally you're filming camera angles that show a wide where you can geographically see. where people are and you're also doing some mediums to show two or three people talking and where

they move. And then you're doing singles where it's on person A talking and then person B talking and you've got to film them one at a time, all of A's and then all of B's, even though you're both doing lines back and forth. And in this case, the response and how fast it altered the way the next person did their line was so rapid fire and needed to be this thing that went from sort of dangerously suppressed control to absolute lawsuit control from zero to 60 very quickly, they decided let's put cameras on both of them at the same time the way you would film improv or something because you can't, is the only way you're going to get the actual overlapping reactions specifically. And if I pivot left, he's got a pivot left really fast. And if he's right,

I've got to pivot right really fast. So they did that, which is hard, but I think it was the right call. It's hard because you get in each other's light. And Marshall Adams is a genius. and Steve Leteky as the headlighting technician, and they figured it out, but it's hard. It's really hard to not step into somebody's light because whenever you're on that person, the camera is set up for their light, not yours. I wanted to ask about,

so another sort of intimate moment that happens. My favorite thing about the apartment is that I feel like Jimmy and Kim are essentially like at war all day long, and then the apartment is the bunker, where they kind of come home and they take their helmet off and they drink and they try and figure out what happened that day and what to do the next day. So that's where these real moments happen,

but even those real moments, I think, are obviously, you know, it's in play that those could be also performance and could also be kind of matters of tactics for each character. But the moment where Jimmy is telling you, you know, when you guys have come home from the day after you've gotten married, and Jimmy is telling Kim, I could be a friend of the cartel

and you kind of say, you repeat the line back to him and then he explains about lavender farms and she's like, but you could be a friend of the cartel. Just the fact that you're just repeating the same line that you've already said, but it carries so much weight

and I think obviously also for people watching the show carries a lot of weight because you have become somebody or character has become somebody that people feel very protective over and also very concerned about. That whole thing, what was that like to shoot that scene?

It was right. Melissa directed that and she and Allison and Bob and I and we always call Peter Gould or showrunner to discuss things too. We were all on the same page from the beginning that that is the most, I personally don't think it's the most intimate the characters have ever been. I know they show quite a Chase relationship on the screen and people have commented on that. I adore the fact that their incredible connection and the realism to their relationship doesn't actually have much at all to do with nudity and big sloppy kissing scenes and all of that. It's about something else. But this is where the camera gets to see probably the most intimate we've been allowed to see them and witness. And our show doesn't sort of dwell,

Neither did Breaking Bad dwell in a lot of nudity either. And you're kind of seeing that this season a little more than ever before. And I looked at that scene, though, and Bob thought this, I thought this. And as I said, my writer and director agreed. What is the rawest, barest, most naked, intimate part of that scene is not this crazy sex they were getting ready to have. And the fact that you're seeing them unclothed, it's the fact that he chooses to bear all and tell me the truth. and she chooses to accept it and stay with him. And so the whole thing was framed and rehearsed with that in mind.

He is utterly vulnerable telling her that in that moment. And I think Kim, when I'm watching it, I'm very worried. I'm very worried about her. But in the moment, Kim, and we've seen this, Kim has a very healthy ego that can make her a superhero, but can also get her into a lot of trouble when she doesn't think she needs any help and when she insists on doing things alone

and when she honestly thinks that there is a way to work yourself out of every single problem. If you can work hard enough and smart enough, you can make things right. And so I think she pads herself when he says this and it's kind of like, okay, he's got to do what he's going to do.

There's also part of Kim that I think it's loathe to tell someone else what to do because she cannot stand people tell her what to do. She has some of her most ferocious reactions when people tell her what to do or tell her what they think she should do or what she's thinking, even when it's completely wrong,

like blowing up at Schweinkert when he accuses her of doing something wrong with the Mesa Berwick case or with the Acker. I'm just like, you should have just sat there and said, fine, yes, I'll be off the case and move on. Nope, can't do it.

So that's where her ego gets a hold of her sometimes and this martyr syndrome. And I think in that moment it was just Bob and I knew it was a very pivotal bare moment. And that moment, much like Deep played slightly comedic, but still Mike Ermintrapp coming into our house. I think you are right that it is unusual that these dark elements are beginning to invade what you're calling the bunker or the safe space. Yeah. Yeah, and it goes back to what we were talking about with what Ray knows about the Better Call Saul universe versus what Kim knows about Albuquerque. And just seeing her say the word cartel, you know, I've been watching Breaking Bad for the better, you know, and Better Call Saul for the better part of 10 years or whatever. So I know what that means and you know what that means.

But it's like she doesn't. She hasn't seen Breaking Bad. But at the same time, there's also the reverse way to look at that, which is why I made the, I tried to make a choice in the moment that it's almost hard to say the word cartel. Like she's saying like, do you even know what's coming out of your mouth without something to like insane? Because I think she's trying to,

and we've all done this with our partners too, if they're revealing a secret, you can't scare the shit out of them by going like, what the fuck? Like screaming. Or they're never telling you the truth again. And you also want to get all the details out and give them a space to like vent.

Okay, tell me exactly what's happening because we can only deal with it if you'll tell me, which is the pact that she made. And I also thought about like saying the words cartel like so you have to imagine and really we've seen Breaking Bad and we watch cartels whether it's Narcos or other or mob movies and all this stuff. Like we we have an understanding of it's in our vernacular when speaking about entertainment. But if any of our actual friends showed up for coffee and was like, so guys, I'm thinking about I'm thinking we're doing charades this weekend and I'm going to invite a friend of mine and I just. why you know he's from the cartel. Everyone would be like, what, what? What is happening? You can call him Wallow or you can call him or hey. He doesn't mind either way.

Yeah, that's insane. That's an insane introduction into any conversation. Yeah. And then the crazier part is that Jimmy doesn't say, I'm so screwed. I stepped in it. And now I'm involved with the cartel and we have to figure out a way to get me out of it. He's like, this is the pathway to a lavender farm. Yes. But then he says, you know what? For my money, from my side of the conversation, and Bob I have to speak to all of his internal stuff that he was playing.

But it felt like he's relieved that he doesn't have to morally make this choice for himself either of incredible wealth, but it comes a lot of danger and losing yourself completely ethically because he stops himself and says, he's never getting out of bail anyway. It's a moot point. Right. So I'll do my job so that I don't get murdered by these guys. and it'll look like I did my best, but then he'll never get bail anyway. And then Bob played that scene where we do see that he gets bail so brilliantly

where there's this millisecond of relief on his face when the judge says granting bail and it's $7 million because he thinks he actually got to have it both ways for just a second. Sure. Oh, well. You know, I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but I did have one question for you. It's just about the show in general. I'm going to skip all the like trying to lead you into telling me what happens next. I wanted to ask you because I was reading the Seppin Wall piece about you from,

I think it was last week it was published and it's a great piece on Rolling Stones and people should check out. But Peter Gold said something in that interview about every main actor on this show could carry their own TV show. And I think one of the coolest things about Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, but really better call solve for me has been not only do I think every actor could carry their own TV show, but every character is written as if they are the star of their own show. So when you see Nacho on screen, you are completely immersed in the Nacho show, even if it's just for three minutes

in an episode and he's just standing next to a car talking to somebody. I was curious as somebody who's or Hamlin, Patrick Fabian. Absolutely. What is that person's whole story? Oh my guy, where are you going right now? Where'd you come from? Right. And why those collars? And so I was curious as somebody who's a fan of the show and somebody who's been watching it, if you could, not, not, you know, fantasy baseball, but if you could watch a better call Saul about a better call Saul character essentially, is there a character that's been on the show in the past that is fascinated you so deeply that you would want to see a show that was essentially about them? This sounds like a cop-out answer, but literally it's all of them.

I feel the same way you do. When I read the scripts and then when I see the performers, they gas, and Sharon Biali, Sherry Thomas and Russell Scott doing casting in L.A. and Kira in Albuquerque, like the people they get to play them too and the work ethic and

I mean, the people that played Beth, Beth Hoyt and Katie Hall that played the mother and daughter being my mother and young Kim, like the work that people are bringing to this stuff, like I'm fascinated. I feel like I wish there was those Choose Your Own Adventure books where I, but there was a book

for every single character. And I mean, like from the brilliant cattlemen's of course, but to the guy that had to scrub the, um, Poios Hermannos friar the other week. Oh yeah. Like Gus coming into it, I was like,

oh my God, I need to know this man's entire story. Fred that was killed at the, the wiring place. Mrs. Wynn, I would love to follow Mrs. Wynn for the day from the nail salon. All of these characters.

And then, and all of our main characters, all of our Julie Pearl as the ADA. I'm fascinated by her. Huell would love that. I literally could go on and on. And that's another reason to go to set. Peter Disseth that plays ADA Oakley.

I could watch him go pick shit out from the vending machine all day. I love his vending machine trips. Obviously, everybody is kind of stuck home right now, staying safe, hopefully. And I just wanted to ask if you, at the end here, if you had any recommendations for things people should be watching right now or what you're watching that you're sort of enjoying while you're spending more time probably on the couch than usual. Yeah.

Well, I'm trying to get back to writing and I'm trying to finish my short and I'm trying to do art. I also do visual art. I would say this recommendation to everybody is, please, please just stay home. Yeah. They really do think the next two weeks is going to be worse. And you owe it to every medical responder right now, as well as anybody who actually gets this to just get out of the way. Don't make this any worse by thinking you need to do just that one.

Like get your food and go home and that's it. Or order your food and help some restaurants stay in business and then bleach the bag and bleach your counter and it'll be all right. So please do stay home. I highly recommend picking, even if you're not an artist, my husband is not individually trained artist. He did those adult coloring books the other day for like an hour. I highly recommend doing something that makes you feel like you produced or made something. I don't care if it's writing a poem or drawing stick figures or sanding. If you have your tools already at home, don't go get tools.

But I highly suggest making anything that feels like you produced something, baking anything once a day. I don't care if it's five minutes or it's 30 minutes or it's something that you're going to do the whole week. then plant your ass down and do some great storytelling receiving by watching TV and movies. My fiance and they are doing, we're going to try to do it weekly. Planning, we pick a movie with another couple and we watch the same movie and then afterwards do a Zoom session dinner where we eat together and discuss the movie. This week we're doing Being There, Peter Sellers. Oh, that's great.

Excited about that. Last week we did 1917 and that was really awesome. And shows we're watching, right now we're doing Broad Church. We were obsessed with the first season. And we just started getting into the second season. Happy Valley, if you have 19 Happy Valley, it's just one of my favorite shows of all time. Fantastic.

Fleabag obviously goes without saying season one and season two. The only problem with fleabag is you'll have two sleepless days because you won't stop watching and then you'll be done and it'll be over too fast. Exactly. But it's brilliant. then what else? I was thinking I really want to see

a couple of the new releases that are coming out. Swallow to me looks incredible. Oh yeah. I'm not sure to be able to get all my friends to watch that one with me

because I think it's a little squeamish-inducing. Sure. Do you have a pretty good stomach for stuff like that for like horror that has like a little that's pretty confidential?

I do if it's psychological, yes. That's good. I don't like slasher and I don't like torture films. I do not like torture films at all. I'm trying to think what else

I've been watching on TV. Oh, I'm going to start my voice on extras this weekend. If you're out there and you have not seen extras. Oh, God.

Please watch that. One of the best shows ever. If you haven't seen Catastrophe on Amazon Prime, that was my favorite comedy of the last... These are incredible recommendations. You're also making me feel

incredibly embarrassed that I haven't done any coloring or woodworking or poetry writing right now. It sounds dumb, but I'm just, I know it sounds like very like flighty, but like make something. Feeling like you can individually create something, does something to your brain and your body, I promise. No, it's incredible advice.

So catastrophe, extras and 1917. Yeah. Being there, I've seen before, but watch it again. Celebration, the original dogma film from the large tree group of people. You can't stream that. that one. If anyone's out there and can figure out like a company that can put it out, please do. I went ahead and just ordered it because that's one of my favorite movies ever. And if anybody out there doesn't know, this is when they were doing the dogma film thing where a group of filmmakers got

together and in response to kind of hyper production, hyper budget films, they said, what if we took it all back to the storytelling and you can't have any lights that aren't practical? The only lights that can exist on a set are lights that would already be there. What if props could only be props that already existed in the space. Sound can only be, music can only be coming from the actual space. And all of these things are beautiful art forms, as I've said, on my show and that I appreciate.

But it was very interesting watching all that got taken away. Like, there's a dream sequence slash nightmare sequence that someone has in celebration where they did it all by somebody walking around with a lighter. That's how it's lit. And it's also

just an incredible story and incredibly well acted. I think next up on our list, we are going to watch, we're going to rewatch Blengari, Glenn Ross, do the right thing, French connection, Magnolia and shortcuts. You're just doing all the hits. So you're like, I see, I feel like, you know,

like I have that, like I'm, I'm, my friend and I are doing, my friend Sean who does the movie podcast here. We're doing like an Akira Kurosawa, Tishiro Mufune, uh, podcast tomorrow and they're all on Criterion channel. But if I'm being completely honest, Like, I think that's the version of myself I want to be. And then there's a lot of days where I look at Twitter for 11 hours and then watch

Golden Girls until I fall asleep. Dude, Golden Girls is never a bad watch. And I would like to know if anyone out there knows, like, how to stream, actually, anything with Be Arthur is on my list. Anything. If you can find Maud, please do. But also, I was thinking the other day, how great was Mary Tyler Moore's show? When I was running up, Nick at Night was not children's programming.

It was old sitcoms. Yeah. I was obsessed with the Mary Tyler Morris show. The acting and the comedy in that is so great. Much like Golden Girls. I mean, they're comedy classes. Yeah, Golden Girls still plays really, really great. Absolutely, absolutely.

I was trying to think what other series that we were talking about. I kind of want to revisit Freaks and Geeks. Oh, yeah. That one. It's a great rewatch. Great rewatch. I never saw my so-called life. And I know tons of people who were involved with making it.

I have never seen it. And that's only one season. People think it went on. for a while. Nope, just one season. So I think I'm going to check that out on. And you know what I was actually just looking at? Because I have a couple of the box sets sitting on my shelf and I haven't, I haven't done it in a really long time is homicide, life on the street. Great show. Is that your first on-screen role? If you don't count industrials, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It was. It was a Christmas episode about a guy who has AIDS and is purposely sleeping with lots of women to give it to

them. Oh my God. Christmas. But yeah, that would be a good one to rewatch. But yeah, I mean, don't beat yourself up for watching Trash, too. Believe me, I'm sitting around looking for old episodes of Borders from time to time. Good. It's good. Thank you for coming back down to my level. Racy Horton, thank you so much for coming on the watch. Thank you so much for the character you've helped create. And it's just been such a thrill to watch over these past few years. Thank you. Thank you so much. And hi to Andy as well. I love, I love the and you guys are just incredible, not just lovely fans of me and of the show,

but the way you break things down and the way you watch things and your real appreciation for the work I'm doing, I can't thank you enough. Well, thank you. Thanks so much. Take care. Take care.