The Watch - It's Time to Appreciate ‘Better Call Saul.’ Plus: ‘The Outsider’ S1E8 and an Interview With Greg Dulli | The Watch

Episode Date: February 24, 2020

‘Better Call Saul’ returned on Sunday night for its penultimate season and it’s time to start appreciating the show for what it is: a masterpiece (2:14). Episode 8 of ‘The Outsider’ was the most Stephen King–influenced episode yet (26:45). And an interview with the musician Greg Dulli about his first solo album, ‘Random Desire’ (51:56). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Greg Dulli Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Starting this week, we're launching a new show on the Ringer Dish feed, recapping the return of Survivor for its special 40th season. This season features 20 previous winners of Survivor competing for $2 million, the largest cash prize in reality TV show history. Riley McAtee and a rotating guest from the Ringer staff will recap every Thursday. So make sure you subscribe to the Ringer dish feed for shows like Jam Session, Tea Time, and the new Survivor Recap show,

on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, fresh out of cave stock,

it's Andy Greenwald. You know, we're on camera today for the first time in a while. For the better call saw portion of this podcast, we will be. Funny thing to spring on a guy. At 8 in the morning. Who's recently, you know,

who's grown used to glibly. Slam squad. FYI, we're on cam today. I want people to know that when they check out the portion that we'll be on camera, just know that moments before we began talking about Better Call Saul, the relevant portion of our podcast today, we were wearing fox and bear masks. And I won't say who was wearing which ones.

Who's the bear? It's Monday. We don't know yet. We'll know by Thursday. You know, I love to see some prehistoric saber-tooth tracks. We have a lot of outsider to discuss later on. I've got some notes. You do?

I got some questions. Okay. I actually, I really enjoyed that episode, Foxhead. But what we're going to do is we're going to talk about Better Call Saul, the season premiere for season five last night. Episode two is coming out today. Nice little... Yeah.

Interesting move by AMC to put the two episodes up in successive nights and then episode three will be next week. I would say, and I say this purely context-free in a vacuum, just as a person who, as you said at the beginning of the podcast, is back into the culture pool. Yes. I would say that any chance you get to build momentum for a basic cable network drama show is a good move and you should take it. Okay.

Just like just views from the couch, right? That's your Monday morning quarterback view of it. I'm a man of the people, the people that attend cave stock. By the way, Andy, also besides Better Call Saul episode two tonight, there's also Prior Patch episode three is airing tonight. It is. At 11 p.m. Eastern after wrestling on USA Network, right? This is our new time slot for the rest of the season going forward. Pre-Ressling.

Make a date of it. Put on your Lycra suit. Just like dudes in their lusador mask. Something something top rope. Yeah. I don't even have... Off the top rope. You remember Jimmy's Superfly Snooka.

No. Here's the thing. And I say this with love, affection, and honestly, deep gratitude. Monday Night Raw? To the McMahon family. All of the people who I now owe my professional career to and my continued creativity, at least in terms of the television. landscape, I don't know anything about wrestling and I never have. And this isn't one of those like

ha ha, like I'm trying to downplay like something in my life that I used to know about or something I was ashamed of. I watched the Hulk Hogan and Friends cartoon and I like junkyard dog. And then I watch glow. Yes. There is nothing in between. Right. The Mickey Rourke film, the wrestler I saw. Well, and speaking of wrestling also, this week's rewatchables is me, Ryan Rissolo, and Bill Simmons talking about vision quest. Right, which I'm excited about because A wrestling film. When we told me that you had just done that, I mixed it up with gleaming the cube, which is about skateboarding. Another thing that was popular in the 80s that I know nothing about.

Well, there was a skateboarding brand called Vision. Thank you, Lange, if I would know that. What was the surf company that had the big gorilla and they made a Nintendo video game about it? Remember there was a surfing brand? Oh, wait. And there was like a whole cast of characters and they were kind of a thing for a moment on T-shirts. Like guerrilla surfers? No, no, they were like cartoon characters and they were a surf company.

Someone's going to hit us with this. I don't know. I'm sure. These guys are probably psyched that they're filming this. This is gold. Anyway, only thing to say is episode 103 airs tonight. It is a big one. It's when I'm really proud of, really excited about.

The cast joining the show in this episode is outrageous. Alan Cumming shows up. Still cannot believe he is on. He's awesome. My TV show. The great Ed Asner is on the show. David Pamer, recently of Star Trek Picard. Oh, did he make an appearance?

A lovely guy. The two of them play Father and Son. and it's worth noting that 80% of their dialogue, if not more, when they are on screen together in episode three is ad lib. Is it really? They were fantastic together,

and really proud of that. The brilliant Christine Woods, who a surprisingly robust number of people love and adore like I do from her time on Hello Ladies, the HBO show, joins the cast, Mel Rodriguez, who is on Better Call Saul,

along with a lot of other great shows. What was the, why am I blanking on the Will Forte? show. Last man on earth. Last man on earth. Yeah. And people get that confused with last man standing. Right. Yes. That's right. Yeah. Which is definitely that that's more where I am politically, right? Last man standing. Anyway, all of this is to say, you can watch 103 on demand now if you want, but we're at 11 p.m. going forward and someone was asking me about Briar Patch on Twitter. And they were like, will this episode be on YouTube too? And I'm like, my guy, at a certain point. We're all on YouTube, man.

Well, this footage is going on YouTube But at a certain point, you're going to have to watch the show Like the way The monetizing elements want you to watch the show That's good I'm sorry Sean Fanning I know content wants to be free You're on the other side now, dog

I'm just saying you don't have to But it would be great So even if you've already seen it And you don't stay up to 11 p.m. Just put like a crash test dummy on a couch Turn it on if you've already seen it But you don't need to put a dummy It's not like the HOV lane

No one is checking your house. Nielsen Company is not like running drones. Let me do my bit, okay. Okay, do your bit. Everybody to watch the show tonight. Just turn on your TV and go to bed. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

You don't have to put a credence. The Nielsen family is not looking in your home. Well, looking. I mean, they're doing biometric scans for heat signatures, like a predator. That's right. But anyway, yeah. Only a last bit of house cleaning to do is that, or housekeeping, is I would just say that. House cleaning would be you're fired, Andy.

If you haven't already, check out music exists. the podcast I'm doing with Chuck Glistramen that's on Spotify. The first three episodes went up last Wednesday. It was really great to hear from people that they liked it or that they had questions or concerns, too. If they did, I didn't get those messages. But people who liked it, thank you very much. I really enjoyed making that podcast. We actually have recorded it.

So the episodes will be coming out one a week. So the new one goes up this Wednesday. I think people will dig it. It's a fun conversation. Quick follow up. Will episode 3 be on YouTube? Or do I have to listen to it on Spotify? You have to listen to it on Spotify.

Wow. Also, the second half of today's episode, after Andy and I get done talking about Better Call Saul and the outsider, second half of the episode is my interview with Greg Dooley, which is, you know, always a pleasure to talk to Greg Dooley. I think probably Afghan Whigs. Greg Dooley is Andy and I, one of them shared favorite musicians. Did you name them when you did your high fidelity podcast that I didn't listen to? I didn't.

I screwed up. Yeah. I just, I whiffed because they were like top five and I was just like, and I just said the first five that came to my mind. Bill Biv DeVoe. Yeah. John Martin. I really love British folk.

Let's start talking about better calls off. Wait, Greg Dule has a new album. Yeah, it's called Random Desire. It's weirdly his first solo album. Yeah, and it came out on Friday, so you can check that out wherever you check out music. It's fantastic. I only wish that I had been here for this conversation,

not only because I love the fact that Greg Dooley is someone we can talk to because we've admired him and liked him for so long. But I just feel very... I feel like he was always a person. an outsized personality in our lives, our fandom when we were younger, because he also,

it's not only where his song's cinematic and epic and exciting, but he seemed to live a very loose lifestyle. And I'm just so happy that now he's the person I run into it acupuncture. I just feel like that is, it's the way of all things when they move to Los Angeles eventually.

Let's get into Better Call Saul. Yes. First episode of the fifth and penultimate season. It was called Magic Man. This is a thing now, announcing your penultimate season. Yeah. And there have been some speculation that Saul, theoretically, could go on for as long as they sort of wanted to do it.

And it has, I think in some people's estimation, at least drawn even with Breaking Bad in some ways. Obviously, I don't think anything isn't as like an event show on TV the way Breaking Bad was anymore, with the exception of Game of Thrones, which no longer is with us. but it has also followed the show's trajectory, the Breaking Bad show trajectory, in the sense that it had these modest beginnings, I think, where people were skeptical about, like, do we need a Saul show? It's weird. And a lot of people were making jokes at its expense,

primarily about its obsession with paperwork and the amount of retirement home tax evasion that was going on, RIP Sandpiper. Mesa Verde, man. Yeah. And then it got a huge boost over the years from Netflix, which we've discussed about how... As much like Breaking Bad did.

Yeah, as much like Breaking Bad did. And I think its fourth season was among the best seasons of TV that I may have seen in the decade. Like, it was just an astonishing piece of storytelling. I'm so excited for it to be back. We're going to be talking about it pretty much week to week. So let's get into the first episode. First reactions to it.

Obviously, the longest flash forward we've had so far. Yeah. With Gene in Nebraska. And, you know, I'm really... just, I'm worried about the long-term viability of that Cinnibon. Yeah, do you think? You think that that Cinebon can't survive the loss of Tachovic? Yeah, well, you know, I think each Cineabon really bears the fingerprints of its, of its manager.

You know, I think recent moves in the NBA have made me question whether coach, how important coaching and management is. That's right. You know, if you have players on the field. You think Gene is the Elton brand of that Cinevon? If you have players on the field, like Gene clearly does, who players who, just from a phone call are there to open the franchise, players who are there to check

if anyone is sketching out, you know, looking for the AWOL manager, he can run itself. It can call its own place. I'm sorry, Gene. But the extraction is okay to go. So we had a very long flash forward, probably took up the first act of the show,

I would say, the first act of the episode, where Gene gets made, essentially, by the cap driver from season four. And he calls the late Robert Forster, and what I imagine must be his last screen appearance and initially starts the process of extraction, of getting disappeared again,

and then changes his mind and decides that he is going to go on the offensive, at least we think. And the rest of the episode is pretty standard, better call Saul episode of, I mean, in so much as it's a lot of stuff in the Apicrogy Courthouse and Jimmy and Kim's apartment. And then we have the Lalo, Nacho, Gus, Salamanca cartel stuff. going on in the street dealing. I just thought it was excellent. I'm so glad it's back. I have a couple of notes, but I wanted to hear

what you thought of the episode on hold. Well, a couple things. This, like all great shows, has now taught us how to watch it, and it's also earned its pace and its own language and tone and style. And the result of that is when you watch a season premiere like this,

you're not just watching what you're seeing on TV at that moment. You're watching it on top of the monument built by the previous four seasons. And so every moment is excruciating in the most delicious way imaginable. And it's a different feeling than Breaking Bad had.

Breaking Bad, especially as it ramped up to the end, was an almost exhilarating free fall to the bottom. This is so tinged with sadness and melancholy and regret that it is in some ways, I don't want to say, I'm not someone who says that this is a superior show to Breaking Bad. But it is a more mature show

in all ways, both because the people making it are such god-level experts of their craft at this point, and you can tell. But also, the emotions that it's trafficking in

are less catastrophic, less absolute, less shoot-em-up motion picture, and much more just the kind of slow-drip tragedy of life. It's a real, like, middle-class, middle-aged show.

It is. And I love that it has embraced that and owned it. And I also love that the very unique and specific nature of the show held aloft by the goodwill of the DNA of one of the most popular

and beloved shows of the last 20 years. Also, you know, the way Netflix has been there for it to keep it going, allows it to just stay true to itself and stay true to that kind of bittersweet tone. Yeah. And so

obviously that opening, you know, we could just talk about the opening because it's everything that's good about the show contained within it. From just the expert cinematography to the way tension is built and then to the way we get a payoff coming sideways when you least expect it in a banal way, you know, more than anything else. Everything is time spent. So the fact that they've done these flash forwards throughout the show, which started off as like almost a curiosity and like a mystery box, and have now built to the point where when is a

who's the cab what's the cab driver's name? I forget. Jeff, Jeff, the cab driver comes up to Gene, Jimmy Saul in the mall who's eating his sandwich and reading, I think, a biography of David Niven.

I really wanted to see what it was. I couldn't see. Yeah. And he comes up to him and he's like, I drove Sammy Hagar and you're like, where's this going? And then when he

and he blows up his spot, you're just like, ah, it's so much different than if they had condensed that into, you know, they just did this this time. You wouldn't feel that sense of like weird crushing release, because now at least you know what's going to happen. He's going to have to either go on the offensive or run.

But there's still, there's a confidence to this that is just not recreatable. You know, you couldn't get away with any of this if you were different people than Vince Gillian and Peter Gould and their brilliant crew. but you also couldn't do it without the long shadow of Breaking Bad. I mean, the forward-moving story of this show has been doled out to us in five increments now, basically. Yeah. At the opening of each season, that's so crazy. It's so luxurious and so rare that it's really a pleasure to indulge in.

And I think the other thing that I wanted to say about the show, especially at the start of what I'm sure will be a satisfying season. I mean, again, how often can you say that? Sure. That level of confidence. It is worth saying, again, why we were not wrong, because I don't think we ever said the show wasn't good, but we weren't as vigilant about keeping up with it, about appreciating it as we could have been. And it's interesting. I was thinking about when I was watching it last night and thinking about our kind of gap in appreciating the show to conversations that I had and also conversations that I've lived. listen to from, as you know, the person I identify as my favorite ringer podcast or celebrity

super chef Dave Chang. Sure. And a lot of the things that he tries to talk about in terms of, with restaurants, things that are actually good, things that actually have lasting value versus the hot new story or, you know, the vagaries of critical taste or Instagram or whatever. And a couple weeks ago, he had a typically great episode with a chef named Marco Canora who's had a restaurant in the East Village called Harth for over 10 years, which is a really a long time in restaurant years.

And I love listening to it because the truth is when I was in New York and when I would go back to it, Harth is like, that's the restaurant I want to go to because I like it there because they treat you well. It's a lovely room to sit in. All the food is good. And you feel very happy when you emerge from it and you're on East 10th Street. And it's like, I equate that with being in New York and I equate good feelings. And everything about it is quality.

And no one writes about Harth anymore. It doesn't get reviewed. No one interviews Marco about his restaurant. Right. Because it's just good. Right. And that's kind of the better call Saul conundrum at this point. It is not flashy. It is not surprising.

And weirdly, I don't know what it has to say about the current state of television or how we watch it or what to look for in terms of trends or attitudes. It has slipped to the bounds of normal context and conversation in the zeitgeist in a way that could doom some things, but actually I think has lifted it up. Well, so Breaking Bad was a participant in something that I think kind of broke our brains when it came to TV, which is endgame. It's just everything is when a show becomes a significant part of the culture in any kind of way, even like something like Mad Men, which proportionally was like a very poorly rated CBS show had an outsized piece of the pie in terms of conversation online and on podcasts and on sites. and we essentially built this podcast on talking about those kinds of shows. But all of those shows wound up becoming about where is this going and how is it going to end and how is it going to wrap up and what does that mean and what does it mean for everything. And you basically saw over the course from the trajectory from Lost through Mad Men and the Wire and Breaking Bad and especially Game of Thrones and then even shows like leftovers and Watchmen and Westworld.

This is like kind of like obsession with unlocking a show and figuring a show out. and evaluating it almost entirely on where it landed, rather than what it was like to be in the air before that. And that's not going to be a problem with Better Call Saul. I mean, we want to know what happens to Kim. We want to know what happens to Nacho. But I don't think it's going to be very good. You know, and I'm okay with that.

And everything else is already there for us. Yeah, but also I think the show has done a really brilliant job of adding wrinkles that I didn't know we would care. for or need. And specifically, one of the things that I said often, and I think it's slightly different than the point you're making, which I agree with about that endgame, was one of my, I say, every time I say concern, I just feel like it's concern trolling. But it was something legitimate that maybe kept the show at arm's length for me for a while was the way prequels rob stories of stakes, because we know who lives and who dies. But knowing that, and still being grateful for more

time with Jonathan Banks performing the role of Mike. I don't think I was ready for the, the Werner storyline that was the bulk of last year into this first episode, affecting, emotionally affecting a character who is essentially a brick wall and is unchanging across both series. And that's exactly what I was thinking about. The Werner storyline is a perfect example of, like, in J school, and when you learn really basics of telling a story, reporting a story out, it's who, what, when, where, why, and how. all Better Call Saul really cares about is how.

And through How tells you everything you could ever possibly want to know about these people. And that's the gift that I think the Gilligan Gould Axis has is understanding the mechanics of how things happen. And finding that in these like elaborate like, you know, Jimmy's mail fraud scheme that, you know, he enacts in season four, I think, on the bus, taking the bus to Louisiana or whatever he does,

like doing something like that. tells you so much about every character that's involved in that process rather than the character's just telling you that or rather than anything else. And we don't need to know where or what with this with the show. We kind of have an idea about what that is. There's going to be so much significant stuff that happens to the Jimmy Saul gene character that we've really already seen. I mean, I doubt that they will ever do, if I had to guess, they won't do Breaking Bad timeline stuff in Better Call Saul. It'll just go from the beginning of Breaking Bad and then jump to after Breaking Bad.

But I really don't care about any of that stuff. Everything about this show is about watching the ways in which, especially with the Jimmy and Kim relationship, people change over time and how that affects the other people in their lives. I agree. I mean, not since Sam Hinkie is any group of people cared about process as much as these guys do. And it's admirable. It's incredible.

We reap the benefits of it. And cumulatively, which is, you know, really the way this show shines, it's incredibly rewarding. And so, you know, now we have been trained to watch it. We know that the first episode is going to be a very gentle clearing of the throat, a reshuffling of the deck, and then some signs about where we're headed. Yeah. That said, for a show that has been very gradual and very gentle, again, almost to a fall. Because when we were living in Chuck World, I think you and I chafed against it sometimes.

Yeah. And now it all feels earned. I think the stakes changed when the cartels came in. But that said, Jimmy's suddenly wearing garish suits. Like they were always hanging in his closet. Yeah. Felt very sudden for this show. Yeah.

I think that Ria Seahorn, one of the great actresses whose name we can't agree on how to say, but we're just going to keep blundering through. as always played it brilliantly. I think her face was everybody's face. Like, who is this? Carnival Barker. Literally. Yeah.

I mean, I was realizing that's Mike Bloomberg's favorite insult. Is it? So I'm feeling pretty current. But that felt sudden, and it felt like potentially a bridge too far. But again, for the plausibility of this relationship. But again, because they are. so granular in their attention to story into detail, the end of the episode was addressing that. You know, their notes process for themselves must be so fascinating.

Oh, yeah. Because, you know, again, all I can do is say anecdotally from my own experience in a writer's room, any time there was a potential storytelling problem, I and the other writers, I mean, we were well aware of it, can circle it, you can devote a day to talk about it, whether you were ever able to address it in a way that is satisfying both to you or to your writers or to your network or to your audience is TBD. These guys just seem like they just circle the wagons and get it done.

And so... And have fun doing it. Yeah, and having her be appalled by what she sees and offended by what he does. And then when left alone, acknowledging the utility of it, and then having an extra moment truly alone to process it. I mean, that's just, it's, they know what emotional notes to play and when to play them.

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't say it better. So that's better call Saul episode one. Also, Tony Dalton is fucking incredible. So the only thing I would say, you talk about concern trolling, is the Salamanca Gus Notcho stuff too good? Like, because you just want more of that raw, that unstepped on Albuquerque? I just find that, I guess I would say this. I find that to be incredibly compelling television.

Whereas, like, Jimmy and Kim, like, I love, and I love watching the subtle changes, but they, at least for a while now, have been doing kind of the same dance steps. But that's why I think the Lalo character is so phenomenal. An actor, I just am totally in love with this actor. I just think he's magnetic every time he's on the screen. It's what, honestly, it's what the other side. side of the ball needed. To me, him being there and being charismatic and terrifying and unpredictable and big in the way that a lot of great screen villains are big helps so much because it separates

that piece of the show from both the, we already know how a lot of this is going to end up piece of it. Like Tyrus and the Super Lab, we know all that. Seeing the brothers show up from across the border, I mean, the fan service stuff is fun. But again, we know how a lot of that ends. ends up, having something electric on that side of it really helps balance the show in a way. Because there was a lot of the first few seasons was Mike was being methodical, and then Jimmy and Kim were being methodical. And now we've got that raw uncut flowing through half of the show in a way that I really, really enjoy. And as you said, it helps be that this character is untethered from the larger reality, except that, you know, and this is something I did not remember at all until we

talked about it in the last season on the podcast, that the first time Saul appears, or the first time they get him in the desert in Breaking Bad, he talks about Lalo. Yeah. So something's coming. All right, we're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back to talk about outsider. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the Real Real Own iconic luxury items at Unreal Value with the Real Real, the leading reseller of authenticated luxury consignment from top designers like Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Rolex, Cartier, and hundreds of more at up to 90%

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who was trending on Twitter over the weekend. Was he? Because he has been rumored to be a director of a new Star Wars film. I didn't know that. Lovely guy. I believe a Philly guy. Is he? Yeah, he worked with our friend Gina, who edited Briar Patch,

on a little scene movie called Sweetheart. That shouldn't be a little scene. And so this is exciting to see his work on this episode. It had some beautiful touches that, you know, were in the world of the show. Yeah. The show does a lot of, not split focus, but, you know, deep focus?

Well, the shot of, for example, the mask in the evidence bag while the sister is being interviewed. Damn, that's like what Orson Wells does. It's Greg Tolland. It's like what Orson Wells does, guys. We are. Don't set me up in there box.

Highly paid cultural commentators. And even, you know, I work in the visual medium. Look, I love watching the show. I enjoy it. It's a little scary for my guy, was it? It was uncomfortable. Yeah. My dude does not like to be frightened.

I don't like that. Would you like to... That's that shit you don't like. Well, there's two things to say. Bear masks and screaming prehistoric evil. Well, no. So this episode steered the show directly to, and maybe we should just begin by talking about this,

two of the things that I don't love, extremely chief key voice, extremely don't like about this genre. This genre being Stephen King or just horror in general? Horror in general. One is... Don't like people. scared.

Yeah. But one is, you know, that the feeling where they're like, the camera will now land on innocent children. And then you check the time and there's like 37 minutes left. It's like, come on. I don't like that. I don't like sitting with it. Not a fan.

So you would rather just like the last second a little boy gets taken by the bear man? Well, no. I'm just saying there's two kinds of fear and disquiet. And like someone in an animal mask turning and looking like shining, I find deeply scary, but I can watch it. Sure. Like, I've seen the film The Shining. But when you know something is building and they're like having their little chat in the Winnebago.

Yeah, that's really hard for me. Okay. But two. Because it's kids, not because of any, not because like you just don't like. Oh, yeah. If it was like adults, come on. You'd be like chat it up. Whatever.

Yeah, you guys talk. Keep talking yokels. Yon talk in Crystal Caves. The second thing is, and I'm curious, your thoughts on this for the episode is inevitably, and this is true of a lot of different genres, of course, but I think it's, for the sake of this conversation, we'll talk about it in terms of horror. An unspoken, unknown, mysterious, evil haunting something allows for such interesting character work and feelings of vague feelings of dread and wonderful buildup.

Once it becomes... Once you give it a name. Once you give it a silly name and Patty Considine is just chowing down on tumors in the backseat of your camper van. Okay. This is, so you have just outlined. This is when it becomes, once you have to name it, where are you? I would say what you've just outlined is the thing that bothers most people.

I wouldn't say including myself, although I obviously have like more of a tolerance for it than you do about Stephen King. The 75% getting to the place, getting to the name, getting to the reveal, getting to the understanding of, oh, it's on a Native American burial ground. all the stuff leading up to that is awesome. The sense of place, the sense of unease, the sense of disquiet. The sense of community. And the sense of community that builds up out of people sorting, deciding that they're going to combat this. And then finally coming together as they did in the same. And the gathering of the believers and non-believers at Claude's Brothers House is classic king.

It's classic like, you know, we may have our differences, but ultimately at the end of the day, we all need to confront this thing. It's the stand. It's it. I don't have familiarity with other Stephen King works, but I assume it's in them. Sure. If you've ever seen the Emilio Estevez film. Eyes of the Dragon. The problem that some people have is when it gets explained.

It's like, it turns out that this is like, Alcucco sounds like a really pissed off bear or a saber-tooth tiger or whatever the fuck he's supposed to be. And he, you know, is sarcastic about not getting cancer-free flesh to eat and stuff like that. And I still think that the show works on so many different levels, almost despite the kingness of it, because of the priceless of it. And that comes across, also, you guys did it. You put Ben Mendelso and Cynthia Revo in a car and just let it go for 10 minutes. Like, that's how you make television. It's not that hard.

Just put a camera in the backseat and have these two people tell each other stories while they're driving. That's great. That is actually the reason why this show shows. should be 10 episodes. I agree. There is something that this person ordinarily would have

figured out, but we're going to tease it along for two more episodes, which is what I felt like happened a little bit at the two-third marker of this show.

But this stuff where it's like, that's what builds up people willing to sacrifice themselves for other people. It builds up a sense of a bond

between the audience and the characters is hearing Ben Mendelson tell that what Washington Square story. And since, the O'Revo just being like, that sounds like coincidence.

It was such a great moment. I didn't appreciate, and I should have, because, again, the pedigree behind the camera and behind the scenes of the show is stellar. I didn't understand or appreciate, mainly because you and I still aren't sure how many episodes are on this season of television, that this was an ensemble show. And so in the beginning, because, again, I did not know the book. I was clearly spun around about it. It was so clearly set up

to be one of those like Bateman only last an episode shows, but I didn't get that. I didn't know was going to expand beyond this case. I had no idea what the show was or what the property was. So that's on me. But at the same time, I did wonder why Ewell Vasquez and Jeremy Bob and Bill Camp

and Patty Considine. And Derek Cecil. Yeah. All these people, yeah. We're there. Other than maybe a nice HBO paycheck or whatever. I didn't realize the show would give them all room like a Stephen King novel does, like great HBO. I mean, it's all there. This is only on me for not realizing it.

Yeah. But these are great actors who have been allowed to develop characters in the margins over time. So that now when Jeremy Bob's Alex shows up... And does the copper in my mouth story? I mean, I remember that story on The Simpsons when I was in McBain, but sure. I don't go on foot patrol anymore because I just bought a boat called Live Forever. Yeah, right.

But I guess I'll just set sail for Tennessee. You know, it's great to see and enjoyable to see. And also, you know, to your point about how sometimes it's not that complicated, Yul Vasquez's great New York stage actor was recently in Russian Doll in a completely different part, almost unrecognizable. That's Jeremy Bob. Oh, that's right. Yeah. They're both in that and completely different.

Also great. stage actor, also in completely different, a totally different type of role, give him something to do and just let them cook in the background. They're great. They're just great. And that's the kind of world building that I can get behind. And, and, again, it's not always going to be perfect. And so I think, to your point, they were very serious and respectful about servicing what I imagine the book to be about and leading us to this place where we've named the evil and we've now seen the evil and we're going to confront the evil. But they've also, with, I think, a lot of forethought

prepared us for that inevitable. And it's not going to be, it's not a disappointment. Sure. But it's a different type of show at that point. And they prepared us for it by stacking the deck ahead of time with things that we do care and love about. So the thing that makes the show great is the combination of King and Price aside from the performances.

And I think the thing that is sometimes a little bit like a light flashing in your peripheral vision is the combination of King and Price. Because Price is so good at two cops bullshitting with two guys inside of a jail cell or two people

who are sort of have really seen a lot driving for a while and pulling each other's chains or telling each other's some stories and all that stuff and then

where this show is going and you could tell by like scenes from next week this is essentially going to be in... Oh, I don't watch those. You don't? I don't.

I mean, it just looks like this group of people will band together to go fight El Cucco. And that's like given how realistic the show can be at times here's my argument for it is that this is a prehistoric unnamed

mythical evil and it can only be combated by a kind of loose confederation of people who have decided to fight it and when you get down to it it doesn't really matter if they bring in like federal agencies to help them or like they kick their

concerns up to the CDC to talk about like who else could be scratched. Right. And all that stuff. CDC's busy right now, Chris. Are they? Are they? I think that the issue really is like how they tell that story, how they tell this idea

that all these people who are in the Georgia crime investigation bureau or the Cherokee City Police Department and our long-serving detectives, that they would essentially be like, yep, we're just going to go up to Claude and be like, you're being double by an ancient spirit. And he's like, cool, stay in my house. Yeah. You know? Stay at my brother's house.

Stay at my brother's house. The suspension of disbelief is still there for me, but I can understand why it may be a little bit punctured for some people. Well, I think the two things, when I said I had notes at the beginning, what I meant was this. There were two things that I bumped on in this episode. One, I was very ready for Ben Mendelsohn at Ralph to make the turn. And be like, I believe.

Yes. Because, and I could feel, this is just my perception of it. I know nothing about anything actually going on on the show or behind the scenes. It felt like Mendelssohn was getting frustrated, which is a very strange, subjective thing to say. His performance of Ralph not believing, but being confronted with things that challenged him, was devolving, in my opinion, to, like, a lot of frowns,

a lot of frowny faces that felt stifled. Yeah. Because he is a tremendous and kinetic actor, and I'd like to think one of the reasons he chose this part was because of its stillness, when, you know, generally he's, encouraged to go bigger. Yeah. And it's been great to watch.

He's magnetic because you get the feeling that something is coiled up in trying to escape. And it felt this, the last two weeks were the only times that I felt like he was actually, it was this if he was bound, you know, because he was, he had to be playing the stick in the mud type of role in the larger gang of however many there are in their gang now. The second thing was, I have some questions about their plan. And I would just like to, I would just like to, and listen, I've said this publicly, I've said it in my own writer's room, I think plans are terrible. Uh-huh. I think all plans are bad.

Do they have a plan? Well, you can never make a good one on television, so it's not, that's not the point. And if he gets you things like that car ride, if it gets you things like Holly saying, I don't like elephants about the puzzle, worth it. Fine. But as far as I can tell, their plan is to take eight people, all of whom are legally allowed to carry weapons and involve themselves and investigations, apparently across state lines, to babysit a

bouncer that they know so that they can testify in his defense when someone with his face savagely murders a child in the next 48 hours. They didn't know it was going to be a child. It's always been children. But he also kills the fishermen and like a bunch of other people. Well, that's new information for all of us.

Okay. My point is the thing that they know based on Holly's research. The play they drew up takes into account we'll probably lose another kid in the process. It's basically like our plan for the Super Bowl is to give up 48 unanswered points but we are going to defend Andy Reid's clock management

in the post-game conference. That's their plan because the real victim here is the losing coach. I'm not saying they had a better plan because the one thing they clearly... You got to watch more football. I don't watch football anymore. The one thing they clearly...

Clearly, why did Andy Reid win something recently? They don't know. I mean, it's a surprise to everyone. No one is as shocked as they are that the actual boogeyman is now hunting in Tennessee nearby. Sure. I think they thought it was going to happen in Cherokee City, which is even more suspect. Because they left. Because a large number of them are in the employ.

They really only left recent mother, Tamika, behind to guard the city. Exactly. Yeah. And I feel like on the world. way out of Dodge, they might have been like, hey Dodge, Dodge City Schools, maybe increase security around pickups and drop-offs. Because the other thing this episode established for us, without a shadow of a doubt, is that parenting styles differ, particularly in a large gathering near caves. You wouldn't let your child wander off with a mask at a cave festival. I have

younger children than these people do. I am not Winnebago friendly. So this is not my lifestyle. However, the words, let's go sit down and have a cold beer, have never emerged from my lips since the minute I had my first child. That thought has been rattling around in my mind, like a pinball for seven years. I've been asking you. You won't do it. Never once said. I say, do you want to have a cold beer?

And you say, no, sir. No, sir. There are caves out there. I must remain on watch due to the large prevalence of cancer. within the continental United States. That's just sensible parenting. Sure. Yeah.

So. I wonder you're so tired. I'm exhausted. Now, maybe the day will come when my older child can do two things at once. Eat ice cream with boys and keep her sister from being abducted. Sure. Into a saber-tooth cave. I'm just saying it's common sense.

Yeah. So. No, you make some good points. Honestly, sometimes I think you're a little persnickety about this stuff. Sure, sure. But in this case, I do think... It was a weird plan. I think that the idea of bringing all of the people

who know what's going on into one place, I also think that unambiguously, Claude is safer in prison. Personally, yes, they should have left him there. If they could have just talked to those guys into being like, how about we just have a rotating watch of people with Claude this entire time, but he is behind bars for the time being?

But I also feel like, and maybe this is new information, or it was just an essential information. I didn't know that the original, the person that El Cucco copies, was particularly in danger other than the fact that he or she will go to jail. I think what they think is if you get six to seven people all with bona fides in law enforcement

to testify to the fact that they have been with this guy for the last X amount of days, that would be the irrefutable testimony that they need to stop, like, to basically push the El Cucco thing into the light. So they're trying to go public with this. It would appear so. And also weaken El Cucco to the point of being able to defeat it finally.

But what's the weakened thing? Because that's the thing. So if they had only just gone to this teacher conference. They had a long conversation about this at the beginning of the episode, and I didn't quite grasp it. Right. Yeah. I'm not a single thing we have said, and I mean this sincerely, has affected my enjoyment of the show.

Absolutely not. I cannot wait to watch the last two. I love watching the show and I'm going to be sad when it's over. But it was a weird plan. Yeah. Yeah, it was a weird plan. This is why you, man. But as someone who's made a show in the eighth episode also features a weird plan that gets us to a better place.

Yes. Look, hallelujah. Do you remember what was the cave in Philly? What was the cavern? Was it crystal caverns? Oh, it was on Philly. No, there was a, if you took the turnpike out, there was a sign, a turnoff for like a crystal kit.

Did you ever fuck with stalagmites? Stalactites? I wish there was a word. Ky, do you know what those? Is it which ones go down and which ones go up? I think stalagmites go down. I love that you, the confidence. With Kaya?

Talk about, no, not you. Talk about cave formations with a confidence of a 20-something podcast producer. Bring that energy into this week. week. I think there's a word maybe in Werner's native language. Sorry, I was wrong. Selagmites go up. Okay. A word in... And what goes down? The other one. Stellactite? Stalactites. Stagmite. Okay, got it. Maybe there's a word in Werner from Better Call Saul's native tongue of German to describe the joy I get when

people ask me questions that are so absurd that the only choice to take them as compliments. Not about cave formation, but when you're like, Andy, do you go to caves? Do you go caving? It was like when I was in Albuquerque and someone was like, this is a great place to be on the weekends. You know, there's an indoor rock climbing facility. I was like, well, you're barking up the wrong tree. I have not been in a cave since I saw the descent. Mm-hmm.

Were you a cave habituay prior to that? No, but I do remember going on a field trip, and I do remember being like as a kind of dinosaur-adjase study field. Because you were interested in dinosaurs? Yeah, as a kid, I thought caves are pretty cool. and also like that vague, you know, like I'm in something prehistoric. I could get lost, but probably not. I mean, you could literally get lost in there.

It's Crystal Cave in Scenic cuts down PA. Okay. Never made the turnoff on the turnpike to it. You did not. No. I did. And I will say that I enjoyed myself, but then after I saw the dissent, one of the scariest movies I've ever seen in my life.

Okay. I have never been in a cave since. Nor had I really been in a cave 10 years before the descent, but that was only just out of negligence, not out of fear. So that was a decisive inflection point, if you will, in your caving lifestyle. Can I ever been in a cave? Several times. Several times?

I've been in several caves. Several caves? Yes, unfortunately. Were they like school field trips? One was a school field trip. Last time I was in Hawaii, I went into a cave and I did not have a good time. Was one a mistake? Did you just wander into one?

Wait, why did you not like the one in Hawaii? Well, see, the thing is that my boyfriend really loves caves. And so a couple times when we've been on vacations, he's sought out caves and dragged me along. Did your boyfriend watch The Outsider? No. Quick follow-up. And I don't mean to cast any aspersions about your boyfriend who seems like a lovely guy. Is he so passionate about caves that he might encourage an underage person to join him?

Because he's so excited about the joys of caving that he doesn't, he forgets himself. And he's like, eight-year-old, come with me because you have to see the way that. the bears scratched the ceiling of the cave. I'd like to believe he has more sense than that. I'd like to think so, too. Also, the funny thing about Alcucco doesn't know a lot about caves. He's like, I don't really know. I mean, I don't know if the saber tooth's been there,

but grizzly bears used to be down there. What do you mean? He doesn't know a lot. He has a whole line of alternative facts. He knows that bears scratched the ceilings of caves. Well, because he is, like, basically a bear. He knows so much more about caves than you or I do, and here you are saying that he doesn't?

I don't know. I also think. And again. You're on team El Kuko. What's that? You're such, you're a Bernie bro for El Kukko. No, no, no. Listen, I'm about to turn on him.

Okay? I am about to Amy Klobuchar. Hashtag not me, us. Hashtag El Kuko. I think that El Kuko's policies are too extreme for the general election. And he needs to pivot to the middle. Yeah. To win back the working class.

And the children. And the children. The children vote. You know, I think maybe they foreground this a little bit when they were like, Cecil, Tennessee has a Burger King apparently in prison and that's it. Yeah. So maybe there aren't a lot of opportunities. But I do think, and again, I am not trying to see him succeed. But if he did just want to peel off a kid, maybe a large gathering of people.

I think he also could have been more subtle. Yeah. Like he didn't have to put his arm around the kid and be like, I'm going to eat you. You know what he mean? Because I'm wearing a bear mask. Yeah, it could have just been a little bit like, why don't you meet me down over there and I'll show you the cave?

Was the assumption, were we supposed to assume that his face was still a little Play-Dohy? Like not fully? I think so, but I think we'll probably see next week because they didn't really get into the iPad photos. Shout out to the Cecil PD, rocking iPads. I was ready for an enhanced montage.

I love it when people enhance shit on screens. I love that. Yeah. Right. So that was the reason why he probably continued to wear a bear mask. I'm sorry, a Fox Mass. Sure, also it was, like, very El Cucco of him to do so. Well, it was cool.

Yeah. Cool A.F. Yeah. That's what El Cucco, he really worries about optics. I, you know, El Cucco does better in caucuses than primaries. Do you have anything else to add? Because he makes a strong case for himself. No, it's just, it's, it's been really fun.

And obviously, we're not done talking about the show over the course of the season. We're just getting started. We got this El Cucco bit to, to really take for a walk. But because it's, not just because it's supported this kind of deeper dive in week to week,

but it has changed so profoundly week to week. So now what I'm looking forward to, and by the way, that's the other thing I want to say. The needle drop at the end of the episode was like, cool choice. Fucking 180 from everything

the show has been up to this moment. Also, just so cool because Dillard like slow down, it's like in slowbo, but the song itself feels like it's almost chipmunked. Yes. It was really, really neat. But it was very different from everything we've seen before.

And so now what I'm psyched on for the rest of the season, it seems like we're going to get like a, you know, last stand at the Alamo kind of episode with our gang, with some casualties, before a final fight with an existential prehistoric evil, which is really not where the show started. I don't think Vegas is no longer taking bets on Claude's brother. Yeah.

And I have copper in my mouth. Oh, yeah, but come on. What about Detective GBI? What about... I think he'll be fine. He likes to sleep in his car. But first two guys off the field are those two. Quick question.

And probably also Andy. Oh, come on. Andy died three episodes ago. I'm really, really into Holly. Can I ask you, as a recovering caver, if you were conscripted into a task force to defeat an ancient evil? Yeah. And you knew that the confrontation was coming. would you be like first in line to volunteer to sleep outside?

No, and I bet I felt like that was very unrealistic. I thought that they would just be covered in due. Oh, that was your note? Yeah, like it's not comfortable to sleep outdoors on a couch in Tennessee. Well, that couch alone, I mean, with the humidity and the moisture, has some issues. Yes, yeah. But for me, it was less about the natural condensual. of mourning

as it was, there is the aforementioned ancient evil stalking motherfuckers. Also, I just feel like they're not throwing their weight around enough. Like, just go to the Marriott and be like, we're going to need to commandeer some space here.

Yeah, like we could take Claude and put him in a different place. We know it's cave stock, but we've got an ancient evil prowling the territory. We can wrap it up there. We'll be back on Thursday. We've got Eva Anderson,

one of the writers of Briar Patch joining us on Thursday to talk about episode three. We'll also talk, I'm sure, about a bunch of other stuff. We can chat about episode two of Saul, if you want. I'd love to do. So we'll be back on Thursday. Stay tuned for my interview with Greg Dooley. Check out his new album, Random Desire, which is available now. And turn your TVs on after wrestling on USA Network. Please do. Get you and your crash test dummy. Get El Cucco, get the masks out. Whatever you got to do. I misspoke. Turn your TVs on for all of wrestling. Support wrestling, man. It's supporting me.

It's a pleasure to welcome back one of my favorite musicians ever, Greg Dooley. What's up, man? Thanks for coming back to the watch. Nice to be back. Greg has a solo record coming out called Random Desire, so I jumped at the chance to talk to him again, and I can't wait to talk about this record specifically, which I love.

I wanted to ask you a little bit about the sort of the genesis of it and the circumstances around it. I know you started working on it as like the Whigs cycle down right after in Spades. And then I know obviously the tragic passing of your friend of Dave Rosser, Was this a kind of therapy for you, or was it like a decompression coming off of a wig cycle? Or was this something that you had always kind of thought was going to happen after that last

Wigs record? I didn't know. Here's what happened after the last Wigs record. Jack White called Patrick to see if he was up for doing another Rackintors record after 10 years. And he was. And I knew that was going to be make a record tour. So that was a big chunk of time. John Curley went back to college.

He still live out in Ohio? He lives in Cincinnati. He goes to the University of Cincinnati. Oh, cool. John Skivik, he and his wife got pregnant. Oh, that's great. And we're having a baby. So people were very preoccupied with other things.

That's when I decided to that I would, after we did the Bill to Spill tour, which was the back end of the album cycle, That was 2018. That's when I was working on songs, but I didn't know what they were for yet. And then when everybody shared their plans with me, I decided that I was going to start making a record of my own. But I really did it in about six months. So probably like last February, I got a hot hand. And when you get a hot hand, you just start playing it.

So I pretty much did the record between February and July of last year. Yeah. I was still tweaking it in the fall, but it was for all intents and purposes done last summer. I'm going to skip ahead and ask a question I meant to ask you a little bit later in the interview. But I was wondering whether or not you were at a point where you're like, you Nick Cave it and you get up every day and write, or whether it is kind of like a hot hand situation and you're just like, oh, I'm feeling it now, so it's going to happen now. I'm probably somewhere between Jason Pierce and Nick Cave, which I think Nick Cave got on Jason Pierce about his waiting to be inspired sort of thing. I have been guilty of that in the past.

I don't know if anyone works as hard as Nick Cave as far as writing songs anyway. I certainly don't. But I am always writing something, working on something in regards. regards to this record, I got, when you get a hot hand, you stay on it. And then you do probably conjure your inner Nick Cave. Once I had like five songs, I started kind of actively going at it, you know, like trying to work up new stuff to the point where I thought I had a record done. And I had the 10 songs. One of them wasn't working. So I took it out. and wrote a song specifically for that slot.

Yeah. And did you, in your mind, one of the things that's sort of delightful about this record is it's compactness, it's like, it's neat, it's like in and out and 37 minutes. Was that around where you wanted this to wind up, or was that around where you were like, this is the material I have?

I've gotten fond of brevity in records. And like we were talking about movies when we've walking across the lot here. Self-editing is something that everyone should and could do, you know. And I imagine you have less people telling you what to do at this point in your life, too. Yeah, you know, but the person I worked with most closely with this record was Christopher Thorne.

He has a studio in Joshua Tree. Christopher has been recording for as long as I have. He's a guitar player in Blind Melon and has done a lot of great work. He's such a great one-on-one guy because he will go 12 hours. He will go to three in the morning. Yeah. And not many people will anymore. So that's great for me because once I get going, I like to do 10, 12 hours.

Yeah. A lot of people want to stick with the eight-hour day, and I need more than that. You want double shift. I just need – once I get rolling, I like to keep going. And, you know, I mean, there becomes a point where it's, you know, diminishing returns. But you can get a lot done in the middle of the night. Yeah. And especially when –

Are you like a start at 8 p.m. kind of person? No, I'm going to start at 2 p.m. Okay. But I like to go till like two, three in the morning. Yeah. I like to do 12 or 13 hours. And what's the recovery? Like, is there a LeBron James cryo chamber to like kind of get ready for the next day?

No, I'm ready at 2 o'clock again the next day. That's great. You know, I mean, I don't really need a ton of sleep. I sleep like five or six hours a day. But we had a really good rhythm going, Chris and I. And I've been working with him for about, he worked on the last wig. record as well. But this was the most intensive that we had ever worked and it, you know, worked out pretty good. And I know Chris obviously plays on the record, I believe. He does not. He just

worked on the internet, but John Theodore plays on it and there's, you had help, but I was curious about with you handling, would you say, it's fair to say a majority of the instrumentation? Probably 90% of it. Okay. So how does that change the, the songs you're writing? I mean, how does it change? Like, you obviously probably don't feel limited by your own expertise, but is there almost like a coloring within the lines thing happening when you're like, I'm going to play this. So whatever it's going to be, there's no Steely Dan back in band coming in. Far from that. So I'm a very remedial drummer, bass player.

So for the songs that I am the drummer on, which is the majority of the songs, it had to be within my skill set, so to speak. But happily, most of these songs fell in that regard. One of them in particular was within my skill set, but I let John Theodore take a stab at it, and he destroyed my take. So I was like, all right, you can, you know, it's enough out of you. But he played two songs, one song in which I was so far beyond what I could play. Yeah. I just, I had to have it. Which one was that?

That was Sempre, the second song. There's no way I could do that. The rest of them were things that I could do. And that was, that's always a thrill for me because drums were my first instrument. Yeah. And I enjoy playing them. Do you ever practice them or is it just like when you're around, you just play a little bit? But yeah.

I don't have a set. Yeah, I would need to go to someone's house. Kind of like when I was a kid, I didn't have a set. When I was a kid, I would go to this guy, David Bunn's house. Yeah. And his mom and dad worked all day, so you could go over and just go crazy. And by the time I was playing his drums, he had moved on to guitar. So I was exactly what he wanted someone to play drums along with him.

I remember when I used to be either in bands or have a really close proximity band in Boston in the 90s, there was always that funny thing where like two guitar players could have all these influences in common. But at the end of the day, they just needed a drummer. So it would always be like that was where like the metalhead Hesher guy was like, sure, I'll play and you're my bloody Valentine's band. And anything to play drums too. Yeah. You know, so that was good for me. I was wondering about, I want to talk specifically about some of the songs on the record,

but one of the things that I get so excited about with you is how you share, like, the music you're listening to and what a big evangelist you are for the stuff you're listening to. I was wondering what kind of stuff you were listening to during the making of a writing of this record that might be surprising or might have had a little bit of an influence on the album. I listened to, for whatever reason, I was listening to air quite a bit on my way back and forth. I was also listening to a lot of jazz, Donald Bird in particular, Herbie Hancock also. As far as music that was influencing me, I wouldn't say influencing directly, but There's this group from Minneapolis called Night Moves,

who I really like. And their last record was done by Jimmy No, the drummer for Spoon. And just such an amazing production job. I definitely took some inspiration from not only the group, but the way he mixed the record was interesting to me. Yeah, I always feel funny asking those questions just because I sometimes get great, you know, expect people to say like, yeah, you know, like we were definitely just thinking of, you know, like this Prince record,

or I was thinking of this Prince record when I was making the records. I wanted to feel that way, but I know that it's sometimes it's a lot more, the connections could be a lot more obscure. Speaking of Prince, though, there was a moment in the song, Scorpio, where I kind of got stuck for something to do for, the bridge. And I tried something I didn't like it, but while I was driving along listening to it my car, I kept singing a piece of if I was your girlfriend. Yeah. And I liked it so much that I got a pitch shifter and I did a tribute to the Camille character on Sign of the Times. So

there's the Prince inspiration. Well, yeah. I mean, there's, It always seems like he's not far from your music. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the difference between, if you saw a specific difference, because this is your first solo album, but I was wondering whether you considered Amber Headlights to be more your first solo album, or was that just more of a project

that was kind of happening in between Twilight Singer's records? Amber Headlights is songs that I did not use for Blackberry Bell. Right. So it's just a lot of outtakes. Right. And it was never done as a solo record. The reason why it has my name on it, first of all, it's Greg Dooley's. That's why I was wondering.

And it was just, it was something in my computer that people kept asking me about. And I'm like, oh, I'll put it out. Yeah. And I don't disavow it. I don't disown it. I love the songs on there. and we'll probably play more than one of them during this tour. But it was not started as a solo record.

And it was when it came out, the songs were already four years old when they came out. So it's not, you know, I don't consider it. Like a statement record, yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, it was just, it was something that people asked about and I had it and I gave it to them. Do you feel like you have other things like that, like lying around on hard drives? I have a ton. I have a ton of stuff. I have, there's probably a Twilight Singer's double record.

No shit, really? That never came out. You know, I mean, not just through the years I compiled enough songs to make it, to make a double record that I didn't put out. Do you take joy in and do you enjoy the, like, being your own archivist and being your own sort of, like, executor of your musical state in the process like that? Or are you kind of, like, always moving forward? No, I do because I have.

have gone back and plundered the vaults for certain things. On due to the beast alone, parked outside was sitting in the vault. Algiers was sitting in the vault, lost in the woods, was sitting in the vault. So I conjured those up. And from, for this record, a ghost was in the vault. And Scorpio was in the vault. No way. Yeah. They weren't as old as the songs that I mentioned, but a ghost was from 2016, just the riff. I didn't have a vocal. And Scorpio was from 2017. But the rest of the songs came in that February to July, whatever that was.

You know, I think we've talked before about, you know, the non-musical influences on your work over the years. And I know that you, I know that you know, like, famously in some African Wicks records are like written and directed by by Greg Dooley. I was curious whether or not there was stuff you were watching

during like the last year or so that played into random desire at all. I really like, I find the album cover so evocative and tone setting, you know, that I was curious. Like, for some reason,

like the first thing I think of when I look at it was Paris, Texas. But it's like, I bet there's a lot of stuff going on there? I would have to think about what I was watching. But the show that I watched in the last year that moved me more than any other show was Mr. In Between.

Did you see that? Oh, no. Oh, really? It's up there with, I put it up there with Breaking Bad, the wire. I put it up there. I fully put it up there. That was on FX, right? Yeah.

So on FX, it's an Australian show. It's a half-hour show, which is it doesn't feel like that. It really feels like you're in it for a lot longer than you are. A little bit of a... Somebody asked me what I could compare it to it, and I'm like, well, you can't compare it to it because it's two different places, but it had a little bit of a justified feel to it. But the guy who wrote and stars in it, like he's just, he just owns the character. Huh.

And Joel Edgerton's brother. Oh, Nash. Nash Ederson, yeah, right. Directed all of them. Okay. So, and plays an interesting part in one of the episodes. He guests in and he gets dealt with rather violently. It's pretty fabulous.

But, yeah, I love that show. Yeah. It's not often that, like, I haven't seen something like that. I'm surprised. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then again, I'm not because a lot of people, I'll bring this up to people.

And they're like, oh, I don't even know what that is. And I'm like, you need to watch it immediately. All right. I'm going to go, I'm going to check it out tonight. Yeah. There's only two seasons. The first season's abbreviated. Okay.

So it's like eight, maybe seven or eight. And then you get the full, the full Monty, the second season. I don't know if they've, if they've re-upped it. But I hope they did. Yeah. But they left it in a good spot if they didn't. Okay. How are you feeling as an Angelino these days?

I always think of you when I think about this city because I know I know you've lived here for such a long time. And this place has changed so much even since I've lived here. But I'm sure since you've lived here. I always kind of wonder, I know that you've recorded this, you know, this record was recorded in New Orleans. A lot of it was recorded in Joshua Tree. But to what extent, like any. current day Los Angeles seeps into your stuff. Well, I did a song at Gold Diggers down the street.

Yeah. My friend Dave's, that's my friend Dave's place. I did, I tracked one there, and I did some overdubs there. So I was there twice. But yeah, this was probably the least Los Angeles, although I, you know, I mean, I wrote a lot of it in my house. But I still love it here. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, uh, um, After the last Wigs tour, I've basically stayed here.

Really? Yeah, but I finally got on an airplane last fall and went to – I took a proper European vacation. Oh, nice. I'd never been on one before. I'd been to Europe, like, no joke 60 times. Yeah. But I never went there just to do a holiday, so I did do that. That's never occurred to me that that must be the case.

I bet it's like for you and for pro athletes, it's like you've seen everything, but you've never actually been anywhere. But yeah, so I went to England for a week and I went to Italy for 10 days. Yeah? And I went to – I lived in Italy for a year back in 2005. Oh, wow. We're in Italy. I lived in Milan. We worked for a month in Sicily and then I toured all over the country.

But I never went to a Malfi Coast and that's where I went in September. What did you think of England as a tourist? I loved England as a tourist. Again, in September, I had never been to England and the fourth. fall, beautiful weather. It was warm. It rained for 20 minutes one afternoon, which was actually kind of nice because I was inside and sleeping anyway. I always have these romantic notions. I have some family over there, and my wife and I went for Thanksgiving, not this past one, but the one before. And like, as we were arriving, I was just like, this is just, I feel like I'm

very at home here. I can't. And then after like three days of it getting dark at 2.30 p.m. and like ice raining all day long. I was like, oh, yeah, I think Los Angeles might have broken me in a little bit. Go in the fall. Yeah. I've never toured Europe in the fall. And I'm going to try to do that this year. I've asked if they would set me up some shows there because the weather is fantastic.

Everybody in September, most people are back from their holidays. So you get arrested, happy populace, you know? Yeah. And it was, that's when I would go whenever, if I, if I ever. Because you're usually there for like summer festival season? I do summers. And I usually, I've toured a lot in the winter in Europe, which is bad beat. Dark and cold.

Yeah. But yeah, fall in Europe. That's my, that's my. Speaking of playing live, like, you're going to take this record out. I was wondering whether or not it being a. a solo record and you playing so much of this stuff, are you envisioning more of like an evening with Greg Dooley kind of thing? Or are you going to put together a band and like have it be?

I have a band. Okay. In the past, when I've toured as my name, I just, it's acoustic guitars and, you know, a piano, maybe a couple other guys. But these songs need to be realized in there. And it's interesting because I've made them all in the studio. I've never played any of them live. Really?

I, back in January, I went down and played with the rhythm section in New Orleans just to see what it felt like. And it's actually pretty cool. But I will take this time to reconnect with the Twilight Singers material, which has been kind of on hiatus for a while. So it'll be fun to play those songs again. I got a cool show. I've already kind of made a couple set lists.

and it moves around nicely. That's cool. It covers everything. I was wondering whether or not that there's a little bit of training that goes into, because I feel like on this record, there's vocal performances that I haven't really heard from you before. Is that like a different mindset to get into when you know you're going to be playing these songs live? Like there's some beautiful singing on this. Not that you don't do that on other records, but I think that there's almost like a lot of melodic stuff happening with your vocals on this record that.

that didn't seem like necessarily like, you know, the Afghanis is a rock band. It's a rock band and this is not, I mean, there's a couple rock songs on this record, but maybe two. The rest of them are kind of cabaret-ish.

Yeah. So I worked pretty hard on the singing, and I have to say like Christopher Thorne is, he is not afraid to say, you can do better. Yeah. You can do better. You can do better.

And what I would mostly do, is do I'd do six takes and then we do a comp of the best one. But occasionally, like, if I got, if I was doing really well, like, for instance, on pantomima, the first song, the main vocal is three vocals. Okay. The chorus is seven vocals. Wow. So we ended up using all of that step because I was being really consistent with my performance.

with my performances. So that was doubling and tripling voices was something I had not done a ton of, and we did quite a bit of that on this record. That's so cool. Yeah. I was curious about whether or not... I wanted to ask you a little bit about...

One of my favorite tracks is lockless. Okay. Yeah, and I think the sort of, like, the horn-durged in it is beautiful. Did you record that one in New Orleans? Okay. Here is... Here's the story of Lockless.

Was working, this happens many times, and it's always, it's never not magical. Trying to find a sound on an instrument for a different song. Okay. And you're just stabbing along. You're just basically getting sounds for the engineer. I was doing a melaton for I can't even remember which song. And there was a horn sample already plugged in. to the melitron.

So that was the first thing I hit was the horn sample and I was like, oh, that's cool. And then I started moving my hand around and he's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I think I'm doing a new song. You should start a new take. So I did the chord progression.

I wrote it really fast. And then we needed drums, but there were no drums set up. So I beat box. the drums. And then we replaced like the, you know, the lower part with an 808. And then there's high hat. But other than that, my voice is the drum beat.

And then for, I was going down to New Orleans later in this, I went down to New Orleans last June. And that's halfway through the song, real horns come in and overtake the horn sample. And that's, and I recorded the. horns in New Orleans. Oh, that's wonderful. That's such a great happy accident. It was a, the whole song was a happy accident. Never had done a song like that before.

Never really sang like that before. I started, there's a different voice that I use on this record, on three or four songs, that Christopher called Mr. Melassas. He was like, you should do Mr. Melassas there. And I'm like, okay. Oh, you got to release like a Moody Band style, like Mr. Malassus. Right, there you go. Like deep house with you singing over.

Or maybe he suggested that I read bedtime stories as Mr. Malas. That's right. Give you your own podcast. Yeah, yeah. Last question is, you know, one of the great things about following you over these past few decades is the way in which these projects that you're involved with have their own identity, their own almost like mythology around them. And I was wondering whether or not, not necessarily like predict out the future, but like, like, Like, is something like Twilight Singers or gutter twins, like, kind of in a box now? Or do you feel like there are things that you write that you're like, that feels like a gutter twin song?

That feels like something I want to do in like a future Twilight Singers thing. Or is it all just kind of like, we'll see where we're at when I'm done writing these songs. We'll see where we're at. I think, for instance, there were a couple songs I tried to get Lanigan to come sing with me on this record. And he was in Europe once or maybe even twice because he's... gone all the time. But so I did his voice for him. Oh.

And so in a couple of ways, I sort of had that idea and just co-opted his voice into my own. I have some songs that I've written for Mark and that I'm holding. And then there's Twilight Singers I don't know because that was such a very specific thing. and it was, it started out as a side project, and then the Wigs broke up for the first time, like right very near that, so I sort of folded my band dreams into that one. Now I have the Wigs as my band again,

so I think that's why I didn't do this as a Twilight Singers record. I did it as my own because it's sort of my own. Is there like a notes app? page that you have of like, of like, imaginary bands that you're like one day or like, just like where you're just like, this is a good song for like this John Carpenter 80s synth band I'm going to start? You know what? I actually had a, I ran into Thurston Moore a few years ago.

And you guys played in Backbeat together? We played in Backbeat together. But we were talking about doing like a Tangerine Dream type band that we were going to call I think, tangerine cream or something. I can't remember. I was really high when I talked to him. But yeah, that was the last time I discussed a new project. Here you're here first.

Tangerine cream. Tandrine cream. Coming soon. And hopefully I'll see him out there. Soundtrack of Dune. You know? Sure. Greg, thanks so much for coming by the watch again.

Thank you, Chris.