The Watch - Jake Johnson on the Final Season of 'New Girl.' Plus, the Dark Side of Amateur Sports With Director Ryan Koo (Ep. 242)

Episode Date: April 9, 2018

The Ringer’s Andy Greenwald sits down with comedic actor Jake Johnson to discuss the final season of 'New Girl' and the rest of his career (1:00). Later, The Ringer’s Chris Ryan chats with director Ryan Koo about his recent Netflix film ‘Amateur,’ which focuses on a young basketball star dealing with corruption in the amateur ranks (55:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, great show for you today. Young Chris Ryan is in Philadelphia, so filling in is our old friend, friend of the podcast, New Girls, Jake Johnson. Always have a great time talking to Jake. Just to let you know, after my talk with Jake, Chris will be here for an interview with filmmaker Ryan Koo, who has a film called Amateur that debuted on Netflix over the weekend. So be sure to stick around and listen to that. Also, to some other things you should be aware of, the Andre the Giant documentary

made by our boss, Bill Simmons, and Ringer Films, premieres tomorrow. Tuesday, April 10th on HBO. Be sure to check that out. And also, guess what's common on the Ringer podcast network? Our pals at Binge mode are going to be binging Westworld season one. Now, I know, I know, you're hearing this from me, but I actually would like to listen to them talk about this because maybe they can convince me. I'm excited to hear what they have to say. That show definitely, definitely has a material to binge and they're going to be binging it this week and next week. So a lot of cool content all around. Let's get into my conversation with all pal, Jake Johnson. I ain't sports to have to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I have no fixed title at the ringer. Joining me here in the studio, it's not Chris Ryan. It's Jake Johnson. My go-to guy to replace Chris Ryan whenever he's out of town. Well, I'm back.

See you, Chris. Take a hike. A couple things. Chris's voice will be on this podcast later. There's an interview he did with Ryan Koo, a filmmaker. Is there any way you could cut Chris out of that interview and replace it with my voice? I'll say all the same things he said. How much time do you have today?

That would be a solid bit. Here's the thing. I said to you when you walked in, we kind of use you in a way. You're very generous to both of us. But there's an element of kittens playing with a ball of yarn where we don't share you. Yeah, it's true. And I didn't realize the savagery in which I announced your appearance in the podcast was just in like a side email he was C-Ced on.

He's in Philadelphia spending time with his mom. What the hell? I'm with my mom. I think he's upset. He should be. He should be. Because he's... And now he's out. He's out.

Once you get the mic. Who am I'm with? We forget the other guy. The other guy does not exist in reality. That's done. Yeah, I like that. This is the podcast now. Welcome back.

Thank you. Yeah, it's nice to be home. I'm thrilled that you're here, especially because, as you said a moment ago, you don't do press anymore. Well, I've slowed down a little bit. Yeah. For a while, it was pedal to the metal. For a lot of years.

You'd appear on anything, say anything? Anything. Just jump through the hood. Oops. Yeah, I've slowed it down a little bit. I appreciate that. Well, I also think we're in a new world where there's so much content and there's so much stuff out there that, you know, as an old timer now. Sure. Which, guess what?

There was a time I was a rookie. I'm an old vet now. Yeah, you're wily. Now, I'm not part of Tone of Colon. No. I'm not that much of an old vet. But in the same sense, I was thinking about the other day, now that New Girl's ending, you know, we finished recording. Yeah.

I did Letterman and Leno. Yeah. where I was like, those were, I was like, when I did those, those were big pressure. I, like, borrowed an expensive suit. I asked people advice. I talked to you. Yes, I remember. The first time we talked was the day.

And I was having a panic attack. Yeah. You were great. Yeah. But that whole feeling of it, of press back then felt like, well, this was my childhood stuff. Right. You know, I saw Carson, and then I saw Leno, and then I saw Letterman, and you have to

appear on that. I respect that guy's going today, but they feel more like peers. Like you're, right, like it's a hang. It's a hang. Where you're like, yeah, great. You've done, you've checked things off. But also, the game now is all like game oriented too. That is true.

Where I'm like, everything feels different where I'm like, well, why don't you just, a couple actors with a lot of Twitter files, just tweet at each other, remind each other of the movie and ask a friend to. I just have to tell the guys in back to get rid of the inflatable suits because we were going to play. We're going to eat like hot sauce. We were going to do that. But I didn't know you weren't into it.

I'm not into it right now. I'm interested in this new face of your career. You're just getting people out by Gile. Right? Well, I mean, look, this new phase of my career is slowly fading out of this career. Turning into that weird guy where you go, I think that 300-pound guy who smells like urine was once on New Girl. I'm in that phase of my career. Will you be the only one of the former cast members of New Girl who fit that description, do you think?

Yeah, I think Zoe will always work. She's just far too talented not to. Right. She'll always bounce back between music and acting. Okay. Max will always work. He loves it. He loves the work.

He loves the work, and he's good at it. Hannah Simone, I think, is going to be the sneaker. She's now the lead of a show. I hope it gets picked up. But we always knew in the inside she was talented. She was the girl deep on the bench. Sure. Where the players would go like, she could get more minutes.

Come on, Rook. Yeah, she could get more minutes. If we called a play for her, I think she could score. I got to say, I've seen two episodes of, by the way, press, promo, New Girl Returns for its final episodes. That's tomorrow night. Tuesday night. Hannah Simone, breakout.

Really, really funny. In the final eight? In the final two you saw. Particularly in the final two. I'm done, by the way. I'm not going to watch the last six. But in number two of eight, she does some stuff. She's good.

She's really talented. And I'm really happy for her. She's a very nice human being. She's easy to cheer for her from the inside. But you're done. This is it for you. I can't forget Lamarne because he's the guy who will listen to this. Nobody else in the cast will listen to my.

Lamar will, I'll get a text being like, hey, Dick, you forgot about me. Lamorne will always work, too. He's very talented. And your lack of working will be just from pure earned apathy. Like, you just can't be bothered? What was the line in a bottle rocket about, and I'm going to butcher it on this spot because I'm not great on the spot, but when, not Luke Wilson, but who's his brother? Owen, Big O.

No, I'm sorry. Wilson when Luke Wilson's exhausted. Yeah. And he said, you haven't worked a day in your life. Yeah. That's why. I'm exhausted, but I haven't really worked a day in my life in this. I'm like, I've done so much price.

I really have. I just, you're just deep bone tired. Deep bone tired. I get it. I'm old man tired. I feel like, I feel like I've worked really hard in this business. Isn't it a time for me to like be in a convertible in a parade and wave at the family? I'm like, thank you guys.

As soon as you walked off set the last day of season seven, did you set your iPhone stopwatch for like 20 years for the reunion shows. This is the window I have left. What I'll do for cash is I'll be the guy who goes to expos with only like 80 people in Montreal where I like sign some stuff. Yeah. Where I'm like, there'll be like some like really sad announcer

who's my cousin who's like, you all remember him. I love it. He played Nick-go Jake Johnson. I'll come out. There'll be a few applause. And then I'll go, hey, I would love to sign it and take a selfie. It is $8 a pick. It is $3 a sign. Are you susceptible to like just sketchy marketing opportunities?

If someone comes up to you and is like, Jake, we're going to do Pepperwood novels. We just need your photo. I love it. We're going to put them in Kindle singles. Sadly, I am more, I am very interested in weird advertising. Branding opportunities. Any goofy new age branding stuff, any new age weird business where people are like,

you know, you'd have to come to a couple meetings. You'd own 8% of, you know, I'm like, I feel like I am a JV backyard street alley trash version of Shark Tank Hey Jack I want to talk to you about an idea

and I go Let me hear this I go I'm interested in doing it for 15% equity No matter what it is The idea for me man Idea is come and go

It's just about equity And fake companies That's right How are you doing How are those Hong shit How's the portfolio No good

My portfolio is vast But none of it's making money It's fair You know it's hard to make money In this game You just spread it around Look, the world's changing, man. You know, money's like, you know, money comes and goes, but ideas are there forever.

Now, please. Now, please. You could work in the industry and get paid, probably. Fortunately, I'm a businessman. More than an actor. I'm a business, period. Man. That was a thing that rappers used to say.

Yeah, I know. I met Chris Bridges, Ludicrous on a no strings attached. Okay, right, yeah. And so he, that was a side hustle for him, right? He had like six businesses. You don't hear many actors saying like I'm not an actor. I just do this. Because actors are punks, man.

They're fools. But not me, man. I'm a businessman. My only problem, I am a businessman. My problem is I'm not great at business. But I like the idea of it. I like the idea. What do you like most about business?

Making that money, baby. So that's your, it's like painting a picture. So when I have my meetings, I pay a full staff. Sure. I am about 300,000 in debt as we're doing this meeting. At the end of this, I am going to. for a little bit of scratch to get home. Gas tank is at an empty.

Stomach is also at an empty. For the record, I have a granola bar with your name on it. Done. Done. And when our social media guy, Pat, took a photo of us. You let that slide grass. Well, I didn't. I just haven't presented him with my contract. A bill of goods.

$8 a pick. And if you wanted sign, it's three, my dude. Muchos gracios. You are good at this. I'm good of business. Do people tell you that? I tell me that, and that's the most important. That's wonderful.

Who do I need others to do? tell me I'm good at business. So here's what I want to know. Please. A year ago, New Girl ended the sixth season. A little longer than a year ago, actually. And ended in a place where people, we would have been fairly, he could have been satisfied with that as a conclusion.

There were some questions about whether there would be more. Yeah. Did you immediately cast off the shackles of your high-paying regular gig and just... Get into business? That's what I'm saying. So when you got the call saying, we're going to need you, Jakey-Jay, you're back. You're back in the game. How surprising was that to you?

Well, the first thing I just said, let me cut this ponytail off. How long was it? It wasn't. I mean, as soon as I'm off work, like six weeks worth of growth. One of the most disgusting things about the way my body works. And I've been to doctors, no one can't explain why. This second, I go, I'm done working.

My hair instantly grows to my lower back. It is gross. Yeah. But it is beautiful. No, what happened after season six, which was interesting, was I don't think season six ended in a way that felt right because Liz Meriwether, our creator of the show, and, you know, really the genius behind the whole thing,

she didn't think we were ending. And then at about three weeks to a month remaining, we started getting texts like, you know, I think my, I don't remember the exact details of it, but I think my character was dating Megan Fox's character. I think we were like in a serious relationship. That happened, yeah. Yeah, but I think it was like right then.

And then all of a sudden, Liz, we got word of like a text saying, because Zoe and I were always included in Nick Jess stuff. So where it was going... Yeah, like Liz would text us and we would talk it out. Right. We didn't have final say or, in my opinion, any say. Zoe had some say. Got it.

But I was included in the Texas summer. Was there a certain point where they're like Nick going to... Sorry, Nick, they're like, Jay, going to move Nick to BCC here? What's BCC? Let's just... Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, of course. How many emails were you not a part of?

The real ones. Right. I was part of the ones saying, like, do you insist on whole wheat for your peanut butter and can you do white bread? And I'd be like, disrespectful. There's like one email from Finkel just being like, Jake, you do a great job acting on the show. You know, you do an okay job.

End of message change. Exactly. But what happened was I was with Megan's character, and then all of a sudden they're like, I think we broke up in that same episode, Zoe and I were now together. Yeah. And it started going really fast.

And Liz was like, well, the reason we're going so fast is I don't know if we're getting a season seven. And I don't want to end this show and find out we got Cam. and have not finished this storyline. Right. She said that wouldn't be okay with me. So we did kind of a band-aid finish

that I don't think anyone felt great about. Right. But enough so that if Fox didn't pick us up, we would have an ending. And how financially in the hole were you because of your assumed season seven profits? Like how... Yeah.

Like construction sites. Bad, I was in the hole. I've been trying to open up a new fast food chain. Tell me. Make sushi. Now, think about sushi As everyone loves it, but it takes too long. It does.

I say, fast food sushi. What could go wrong? Who doesn't want cheap fish? Fast and cheap seafood. And the whole commercial is going to be me shirtless, in a beach,

on a beach, crawling out of the water, wrestling with some of the bros at the beach, a couple homeless guys, and then I just go, who don't want some cheap, fresh fish? And I go, fresh is questionable.

Commercial lines. That's a hit. I thought, I'm sorry to... Pitch, pitch. We're opening here. I've only played it right now 1.5 million into this.

So I'm still open. It's a healthy start. I thought you would be wrestling the fish, like that you would catch each... Give me a second. Take that back. Ressel a fish. When the ad guys I pay,

ask about it, it was my idea. Got it. The cameras are off. How much time passed between, okay, we've stuck this band-aid on the problem to we're going to get to come back? Well, so then we all thought it was over.

And I didn't. I thought we were coming back for sure. So even when Liz was saying we're done for season six, I was like, we're under contract through seven. Right. And then I got word from the agents and everybody saying like, so we want to start talking about pilots coming in. And that's when I knew like, oh, you guys want to have like a meeting.

Oh. And I'm like, is it really not coming back? And they said they got word back that it's most likely not coming back. And then Liz texted me, if we want to come back, We have to reach out to Dana and Gary personally. The heads of the network. The heads of the network and studio. And tell them we want to come back.

Because I think for them, they feel like we got an ending. The fan base is okay, so let's move on. That's a personal touch to the business. This is why the value of podcasts, people don't know that. Yeah, so I wrote an email to them. They give you their real email addresses. I mean, all emails are just people's names. and then at email.com.

So I wrote to Gary and Dana. I'm not sure how to spell it, so I just proved it. At email.com, sent it, and then I got the thing that comes back that says mail delivery, so I knew it got there. Got it. You're killing it. I know emails.

I also have an email business, because I'm not afraid to make money. I do want to start an email business. Yeah. It's time for a comeback. Everybody does phones, text messages. Why don't we have a little email computer? Right.

Just that? Yeah. In our pockets? Or like a heavy, heavy backpacks? I mean, a guy I talked to said it's going to weigh about 35 pounds. Can he get it under? Underth? His stuff is non-negotiable.

He's expensive and he's old school. He uses rare metals. The best medals. So, yeah, I wrote to Dan and Gary and I think Zoe did as well. And then we got word back that they were willing to pick it up, but they were just going to do a final eight. Okay. And so we got to come back and finish the show properly,

which was actually a really nice thing to be able to do. It's really, it's interesting to me because traditionally sitcoms were not as serialized to the point where you would have storylines to wrap up. Yeah. You know, you have a good time. The bar is called cheers. You turn the lights off. You're done.

Although the end of cheers, everybody got their ending. They did. Everybody had the time. That's right. Right. But a lot of those shows, and it was one of the things I wrote to Dan and Gary was that, you know, a lot of these projects that I've done and that most people do, especially in 2017 and 2018,

a lot of people are making great stuff that nobody's seen. Or a tiny group of people are seeing. There has been a loyal group to New Girl from the pilot when they released it early that have stuck with it. When there's a bad episode, you'll hear on social media,

they'll be like, not my favorite, see you next week. Yeah, they come back. Thanks for checking us out for 148 episodes. Is that how many it is at the end? I think 145 or something like that. That's a lot. A lot.

But people stuck with it. And I just kind of felt, if you're going to stick with people for seven years of your life and dedicated to this show with all the great shows, at least give them an ending where people go, I'm not happy it's over. I like this being part of my routine. I like those characters. But they did end it properly. Yeah.

And Liz Merriweather and the writers really did end it properly. So if you feel after season seven, it's not over, it's like, well, it's then never going to be over for. for you. Yeah. Like, we ended it. No, if it wants to come back at some point or... The Dermit Mulroney Megan Fox spin-off. It sets up the backdoor pilot.

Question, would I watch that answer? Yes. Would I produce that question? Already am. Another business. Another successful slam dunk. I just got to talk to the Big D and I got to talk to Megan.

Right. And if they're both in, then I'm in. Is that Dermot or is there another Big D? D. D. Okay, good. I don't know many Big Ds are in your life. Pause.

Well, look, well, it was, interesting too because I think we talked about this maybe years ago the Nick and Jess stuff was that was that was that was that was coming and then it came and then it went yeah pressed a press to pause on that for a number of years and then everyone knew that we were headed back there including you guys but how to do it now that you had the runway to do it yeah were you on those emails um kind of some of them I was you know Zoe and I from the beginning of the show we really valued that storyline together um and And I think when our characters got together, we both wanted them to get together, but I don't think we wanted them to stay together.

Right. Because it just didn't feel quite like the show. But what they've done in the seventh season was make it a way where it makes sense. So you know, actually, because you've seen them. Well, I think that's public, right? I don't know. I think that we can say that there's a bit of a jump. Okay, yeah.

So there's a time jump. So now it doesn't feel like the old show where it felt like there was a couple in the middle of a group of friends. Right. It's now everybody's gone out, done their life, and Nick and Jess are just another couple. Yeah. The thing that I also really appreciate about these last episodes is it feels like the writers have been freed to express the realities of their own lives six or seven years later. That's interesting. Because there are some primo parenting material in there.

Now, recent listeners of the podcast know that we've been trending more Daddington recently. Like, that's kind of the vibe that I bring. Yeah. But, you know, because New Girl was a show about young people figuring it out, even as the people became middle young, you know, a little bit, you know. It's the name of my production company. It's going to kill. But still circling the same kinds of relationship issues, jumping forward and committing,

okay, this is who these people are now. They're in this next phase of their life. It's allowed a whole, it's opened up a new vault of jokes. Right. And jokes about, you know, maybe finding it hard to stay away. when you have a young child, there's primo material here that I respond to.

I get, honestly, I need to, I'm going to watch these final eight because when I was, you know, when you're in it, you're not studying it. So I don't have a gut feeling of how they are. Okay.

I know for me personally, it was a really fun experience because I really do value and love that cast a lot. I'll never, I don't think I'll ever do another seven-year show. I'll never act with people

as much as I've acted with them. We knew each other so intimately in terms of professionally. We did so much like weird press together where we'd be on so many like stages in front of like packed crowds and be backstage together and then walk out, then fly places together. So for me doing those final eight was a great thing where I was like, wow, I'll never get to like do this with these people.

Did that help that sense of finality? It did. It honestly, it felt like for me it was a, it felt like a weird celebration where I was like, Even when we were annoyed with each other at late hours, it would be like, oh, you're doing this thing that's always annoying. But I never get to see it again. Yeah.

It almost felt like you're married to somebody. At an early age, you say, this isn't working fully. We always love each other. We are high school sweethearts, but now we have kids. It's too hard. Let's stay together until the kids go to college. You're pitching something very romantic right now. Yeah, but we love each other.

But I think our lives are going to be not together. in our golden years. But we'll always have... But we'll always love each other. Yes. We've been together since we were 14. Yeah. Then the early teen years of that example are really hard.

Yeah, I would imagine. The kids are a nightmare and you're like, I'm ready to move on from you and you're ready to move on for me. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you blink your eyes and the kid starts their senior year of high school, your youngest. Yeah. And you go, well, hell, I am going to miss you.

Yeah. Sure we've gotten in some stupid fights of how I cook the noodles, dear. Of course I don't clean the bathroom But I love you And so that was season 7 It was a lot of Max coming in my trailer And being like, it smells terrible I'm being like, I'm sorry

And also leave my trailer Also, I've been cooking noodles And also why are you in my trailer Yelling at me? You have your own, right? And then, but I'm gonna miss you. So it was a lot of that And that felt really good

To do that with the crew too We had some crew members Who had been with us for a long time Casey Hodgis, the camera A operator who's, you know, done a little bit of everything was a true legend on that in a way that I've never seen. You would do a take.

Before the director would give notes, he would say, you weren't very good, Jake. In a way, on camera, I would be acting, the camera would be here. He would at times go like this. You don't got it.

But you would know, and he was always right. There's the takes where you're like, it seems like I got it on this, I don't got it. And then I would say, don't got it. I'd be like, incredible.

Let the director tell me I don't have it. Joey Perlough. our costume guy was just a king, Mike Rosoli, we just had a lot of great people. So being able to have that time to sit next to each other and have a couple of laughs before it ended was really special. There's a trend in television to do

the more focused anthology series or miniseries limited. You do your 10 episodes. And it's over. And quality-wise, that can really, that can create some great things. But there's something that is so integral to TV and the TV that we grew up with

that I love so much, is that long relationship. That's right. As an audience member as well. The line build. And to see, to watch some of these last episodes, there are some scenes where they just clear out the paint for you guys, for you, Max, and Lamorne. And it's so funny because the three of you are so confident in the characters. Interesting.

And you're so confident with each other. And the pleasure you have playing with each other is evident. Yeah, totally. So it's like this meta level of enjoyment that you don't get if it's just a prestige five episode run. And I think that is the beauty of TV. But I also think in order to get there nowadays, it's such a tricky thing. That you're like, when you're like, you know, because the show ended and I was all of a sudden back to pilot season. Yeah.

And I was back to getting scripts. And look, a lot of the scripts are good. And a lot of the packages were exciting. Yeah. But I couldn't take a job this year. And Lord knows financially, I need to. It seems pretty dire. Seems as it is dire.

But I couldn't take a job because it was that same idea of, like, you know, you know, You are right. There was, season seven for us was, there would be a scene where we're sitting there. And then our directors or whoever's there would say, like, if you guys want to open this one up, it's okay. Because they would know we really wanted to. And as soon as Lamorne will do, like, a certain, like, he'll, like, cock his head a level of way. We know the stupid bit he's going to do. As soon as, like, Max would come in feeling, like, more amped up.

Yeah. I would come and feel like, I would have, like, you would, like, hear me thumping through the studio. And you'd know, like, you know, like, yeah. And we got to the point where. we were really only performing at certain points for each other. Yes. And if I could be doing something and I knew I'm in a two shot with Max, I know I'm going to try to get him to laugh, but he's not going to break.

It became so fun. Yeah. But to start that and to like meet somebody new and be like, you're Calvin? What's up? I'm Jake. And have him be like, you've got some weird things about you, Jake. And I'm like, you do too, Calvin. I'm like, and I'm getting too old for this shit.

No, it is. The relationship aspect of it is really, I understand that. The thought of, you know, even if you have a very happy marriage, like if you have a fight and your mind goes to a dark place, you're like, I'm not doing all this again. What am I going to do? Meet somebody new? How exhausting. I don't have it in me. I'm Glover. I'm not Gibson. Got it. Got it. You are sitting on that toilet with a bomb on it for as long as you need to. Look, in this world, you're either Gibson or you're Glover. Right.

There's nobody else. There's no in between. Our friends at Fox PR will love the low-key lethal weapon. I think that's great work by you, Mr. Doesn't DoPress. Thank you, you, welcome, Fox. It's great stuff. They need the help. Yeah, there's a moment, and I won't spoil anything else, but there is a moment in the first or second episode,

to be clear again, I've only seen two. I understand. And I'm done. Where Max physically accosts you, and you physically remove his body from yours, and there's a beat, and you say, I'll do it again. And this plays out again, and it's funnier, of course,

second time. I don't even want to know if it was in the script for it to happen twice. I'm sure it wasn't. But because it's just so... What was the setup of that one? Why did she a back in my body? His child is sleeping or having trouble sleeping. You enter his home. Right. Because there's a lot of, one of the great things that the new season steers into is even though these people don't live together, they will not leave each other alone. Yeah, that's right. And you enter the home at a high volume. Right. And he attempts to physically silence you. Okay. I do remember that now. Yeah. I don't think there was ever he was supposed to touch my body. I think he was supposed, I think it was written, and I could be wrong, but it was probably written as like, uh, over-exaggerated,

silence, silencio or whatever. Yeah. He would always improvise get physical because I don't necessarily love to be touched. Yeah. I mean, apart from my, yeah, apart from my family, right, you know, even when we first sat high and I awkwardly touched your shoulder. Yeah. The second time I thought, like, we've done our greetings. Yeah, we're fine. We're fine. We're just another year before they've Try that again. 18 months later. Yeah. Good to see you.

But I think that was a way to get some bits in there for him. Yeah. Physically. Physically. What was the last day on set like? That actual day wasn't emotional for me. You're a killer. I know it.

And I think it was very disappointed to some of our producers and Liz. But the, we did true America. to end the thing. And I actually did break my hand episode seven. Of this last season. My character is wearing a cast for the last episode and a half,

and it's because I broke my hand, wrestling with Dermit Mulroney. Well... So that's actually breaking news. That's amazing. And that's also... I respect that. In this scene, we were goofing around

and my hand hit the wall and I broke this bone. That's terrible. It was awful. So we then had to... I had a cast. on it so they had to write the cast in. So for the final episode,

which is a flashback episode, part of it I had to be hiding the hand. Because your hand couldn't have been broken for all those years. My hand wasn't broken when I was in college. Right. So, and then we were doing True American, which when that game was originated,

season whatever, it was an improvised bit. It was they had a few ideas. We went handheld. Cam Robert was running around. We were all improvising. We were all just. just making it up as we went. It was overshot. By nature, it was, this has to go long because

we don't know what it is. Yeah. On the last day to be doing that, we were all just like, we want to do like two-person scenes where we get to like sit and make each other because doing true America is never funny to do. Right. It's not like, find it in post. It's not scenes that you shoot where you're like, so then everybody stand on a table and then throw feathers in the air and you're not like, oh my God. What will they think of next? Watching Max, do that, you're like, no, if it cuts together with the right song and it's fast, it'll work. But that wasn't what I loved about the show. I loved a two-person scene. I loved working with Zoe when it would be, we would know at the end of this scene, we have to hit a dramatic moment.

And in the middle, there's this really ridiculous bit, but we can't stay too far in the bit, or we won't get that sweet moment. And finding that dance when it was cross-covered, meaning there's a camera on me and there's a camera on her. And we did the rehearsal a couple of times, and our director would say, yeah, let's just do it. And then once we start, we're a little off script, but we're still beat perfect, that to me was when I'm like, oh, I love this show. This is really fun. I could act with her forever. So the final day was a big true American day. So I think by the end, everybody was like, yeah, okay. But episode seven, for me was the sad one. Episode seven, there's a big thing that happens. Sure. And that was when I was taking it all and looking around

everybody and thinking, well, I'm going to really miss these people. Let's take your business career, such as it is, and let's put it aside for a moment. Hold on. Let me move the gold. In a large metal canister, we're going to call the great idea can. That's where your business career goes. It's over there. It struck me for a while when we've spoken that the balance that you had found was a pretty good one because you have this day job essentially on a show that's run by smart people and

you enjoy working with. That's right. You have a schedule. And then that allowed you the opportunity to go. You could go do a big movie, but you could also go do these small movies that you were doing with Joe Swanberg, which are excellent. And when it all was last year, you spoke to Chris for that. So it kind of invalidated the whole process for me. But I found a way into that movie.

I did. I was a little sore, but. And that was sort of, you found a rhythm with that. So this clearly upended that now. Am I correct in reading that you enjoyed having that balance? I did. And, you know, it was, it was tricky because when the show started, it was perfect. But I didn't have kids at that point.

Right. So my daughters came season three, which changed a lot. Yeah. So I've been in an interesting spot in that I don't want to work as much as I used to want to work because you miss things fast. And the way my family works and the way I work is they cut me out quick. You know, I'm definitely, if there's a third wheel in a family, it's me. Oh, let's have that conversation.

And I know it, my team knows it. Yeah. Mom is the MVP. Yes. I've got two daughters. They're each other's Pippin and Jordan. Got it. I'm maybe an athletic trainer.

Can I give you my take on it? I have a similar situation, two daughters. The analogy I've always used is a political one. My wife is the president. I'm the vice president. When the president is in the Oval Office, the vice president is a punchline. It's a joke.

Like, what's this clown doing here? He has no official business. What a loser. He will be sent on a diplomatic mission to Gelson's. You know what I mean? And you know what he'll do there? It'll be fine. Yeah, and you know what he'll do?

Yeah. What the president tells him to do. And if he gets the wrong rotissory chicken, yes. His ass is going back. Yes, immediately. And the best the vice president can hope to do in the eyes of the president,

is avoid severe disappointment. Mild disappointment is a win for the VP. Now, when the president is indisposed, or on a trip, of her own, if she's golfing. The vice president's authority is respected in that moment. It's kind of an Al Haig grabbing the podium thing. I hear that.

For limited amounts of time. There is a certain thing around day three or four when the constituents are like, we didn't vote for this guy. This isn't our country. We don't recognize our country anymore. If he continues to run this country, we're in a dangerous zone.

Yes. But there's nothing we can do. No. Yeah. Mine is a little bit different in that. So going back to the work thing, while I'm there, I am not number one, but I talk so much. I make a lot of jokes with my kids. I'm really on it with them.

So I can fudge my way in so that it seems as if I'm a true member of the team. Got it. So that they're like, oh, yeah, I guess we have to do his rules. Right. I guess this is both of them. Yeah. But if I go take a job, let's say, you know, I just did the movie. I did tag, the movie last year.

I got it here. We're going to talk about it. Just doing a little promo. Nice work. Everything is business, baby. But the family came with me for that one. Nice. But then we did a reshoot.

So they're like, you know, we just need you for four or five days. And where? This is out of town. In Atlanta. Right. No problem. Jaky J. You know, jump down and do ATO.

Yeah. do what I do professionally. It's your job. When I got back, it was a foreigner in a foreign land. They had moved on. It was honestly as if I spoke a different language. I came in and I was like, hi, and also my wife moves really fast with decisions. Yeah.

And I may do the same thing all the time. She's, let's change to make it better. So all of a sudden, like, our toaster's in a different place. And I'm like, what? And then she goes, oh, also, we're not going to do the clothes and leave the clothes here in the laundry. It doesn't work like that. So we're going to, when you do the laundry, you put it in, I was like, there's a new system since you've been done.

And then the kids are in the system. And then I'll go, all right, well, it's after school. So I guess we do this. Like, no, no, no. So after school, we all eat. And I'm like, everything is different. And I was only gone four days. I have to be in there.

Because also the currency you've built up, not the actual currency, but you can't try to impress a four-year-old by saying, well, I was with John Hamme yesterday. Exactly. I don't care. No value. No value. No value. And, you know, again, a lovely man.

in all senses. Look, when they get a little bit older, John Hamm's going to mean something. It's going to mean a lot more. Yeah. And that's why I think... That's why you'll call him and he'll say... No, I just take a few selfies with him.

That's right. He's like, what are you doing? I go, this is for a war job. Do you mind? John, John, he's like, honestly, leave me alone. We didn't interact during the movie. We didn't become friends. John.

You don't charge him for those, I imagine. No, no. I mean, I would. I just don't think you had pain. He's bigger than me. That's probably right. Yeah, I get it. So that becomes tricky.

So during the era of New Girl, when it first started, it was perfect because I was work obsessed. Everything was about either writing or being on set, and I loved it. So then it was, you know, I have that job through that time. And then I would have four months where I could either try to sneak into a studio movie and have a smaller part or take a bigger part in an indie. And now without that, you know, the other thing with pilot season, which was tricky was, you know, there was a show I really loved with a creator I really loved that I started feeling like it was a short series that I wanted to do. but it didn't shoot in Los Angeles. So I thought if this was a movie, I could convince the team to go for seven weeks.

This is a TV show and it gets picked up and it's season four, I know my team. And I also, I'm like, I can't be sitting in like a rented condo somewhere. Yeah. I was like, I'll go friggin bananas. And then when I get home, you know,

I'm no longer dad. I'm mom's boyfriend, Gary. Yeah. You might actually would have a better shot if you reintroduce yourself. I will come back with a tattoo

and I'll smoke outside. The ponytail. Always. I will, after dinner, be like, excuse me, ladies, I'm gonna go have a cigarette and she'll go,

a block away because of the windows and I'll go, all right, no doubt about it. And I'll go out. I'll take the dog for a walk and the dog and I will not like

each other anymore. And it'll be a lot of like, I'll take the dog once I get outside, like, come on, you fucking nightmare. I will have a bulging gross tattoo

that comes out. And I'll think these daughters, you know, these girls should be with their dad. And he should be around. It's a shame what happened to him. It's a shame he moved to New Mexico. Like, it's just a bummer. It's a bummer because, you know, they don't respect me. Yeah.

And realistically, I'm not a great role, man. Not at this point. I'm just the boyfriend Gary, man. You're running around. Yeah, and I would have a canned beer so that as soon as I took the dog for the walk, I'll be like, I'll see you guys. And then it's a, and then I'll be like, as soon as I taste it, I'd be like, oh, this is the happiest moment of my day,

which is a dark feeling because I spent the whole day with my family. But the beer tastes good. Beer tastes good. Well, beer always tastes good. That's the thing. Yeah, that's the part about the glamorous job of acting that people don't appreciate it. So it's tricky. So going back to the schedule, the schedule was great, but I was really relieved.

I will always miss New Girl, but I was relieved it was over because it was such a time suck. And it wasn't one of those shows where, you know, if you do a multi-camp show or you do a show like, where they shoot fast. Those guys have the dream job where they were like, oh yeah, I shot Tuesday and Friday. I was out by noon. Yeah, we had Lori McKaff come talk to us

and we were asking her about going back to Roseanne. We were like, you're just Oscar nominated. Is it a little strange to go back? And she said, it's the greatest job I will ever have. Because you work 14 hours a week. It's the secret. I had no idea. But it's not single cam.

Or it can be, depending on how it's done. But a multi-cam, the traditional way of doing it. The traditional way in front of the crowd because that's the camera setup. And it's it. So once you're in it, you do it. Our show was, it wasn't that, and it was never that. And it was our, our, you know, producers on it, didn't strive for that.

They said, rather than go fast, what if we just kept shooting, let's see what we can come up with? Which creatively, I understand. Sure, that can be exhausted. But then you start getting to the world of kids and families and everyone's like, I get it. But I got here while it was dark and I'm not going to put anyone to sleep tonight. Is there a way we could do it? And then you start getting to the, I'm not mad at it. it's ending, but I will miss everything.

Yeah, because I remember the time, and this was probably pre-season two when I talked to Dave and Brett and Liz, and they talked about their process for making the show, and they were basically like, we keep extra clothes in the office, and we scare each other

because we're all ghosts that live there. If you begin that way. And aspire to it. I think they all liked it. I think it was the allure of what S&L promises. Right. That, you know, you never leave. that eighth floor.

Right, and the 4 a.m. joke is going to be worth it. Yes, you just have to stay up all night and all night and all night. And look, to Liz Maryweather's credit, she pulled it off. Yeah. She wrote a show that became new girl. Awesome. I will be indebted to her for the rest of my life. I will be impressed with her forever.

Also. Her process is just not, let's get out of here by lunch. Right. Well, also because after you make a pilot and I remember reading, was chick with dicks or something. That was the name of the original name of the pilot. Can't believe that didn't fly. You decide what the show is going to be,

and they decided a very high degree of difficulty. That's right. Of, okay, we're going to do that joke, but then we're going to do six skyhook dunks over that joke, and to get those next five or six jokes. It's going to be, it's going to demand this kind of. And so I'm now in a zone where the slate is clean, and I don't have any contractual obligations.

and it's a really unique place to be in. I'm fortunate in that I am still considered to be in this business. Yes, until this podcast drops in two hours, yes. Asta Luiga, baby. It's not Luiga. You know what just almost came out that will be better. Asta Luigi, baby. Oh, that's great.

For Mario Kart 9. Hold on. Yeah, take that down. Make a shirt, Asta Luigi, baby, and then Mario's on the back looking sad. Should we tell people your phone's not even charged? You mean this little black rock I found? You know what I've been doing just said?

I just painted numbers on a rock. Because who can afford a phone? But also, people get it. You know, people have seen, they go, that dude is talking on a rock. It's a power move. It's a power move. It's a Japanese riverstone.

Just to be in a meeting and go, I'm so sorry. So the project is grab a rock and go, hello? Yeah, I'll call you in a little bit. Sorry, I had to take it. I'm so sorry. That was business. Would you like with this clean slate to be doing more things like you did with Joe,

where it's, you know, you're writing, you're there from the beginning and the creation of it? I know that you have other projects that you are writing or co-writing. Yeah, so, yeah, honestly, I'm begging you to promote things. I'm going fishing in the Japanese River. I want fresh fish? Honestly, one of the reasons I haven't been doing a lot of podcasts are press lately is I know I'm not good at it these days. You're killing it. You still got it.

You slip right back into it. I don't have it. No, I'm writing something with Damon Wayne's Jr. We sold a movie, which I love. We've been trying to do something since Let's Be Cops. We've been... Can I pitch you something? Please.

Let's still be cops? Pass. Okay. I respect your speed. I respect. But, you know, there's been a lot of years where we've been trying to find the right thing. And finally, we had an idea that we talked out.

We pitched it to Netflix, which is a place I really like working with after Win It All. I like the streaming model. Yeah. And so, yeah, we've been writing that, which has been a lot of fun. I'm working on something with a guy named Josh Greenbaum, who did the short game documentary. He's a documentarian, which we're going to go out and pitch. But all this stuff is kind of, you know, the Damon thing's a movie.

It's a limited window. To limit a window. I see what you're doing, yeah. And the thing with Josh is a very short series. It's a docu-series. So I don't know in terms of the long-term. And I don't have a big plan. And I enjoy not having one.

And it's been, I haven't really worked since New Girl ended, which was probably Christmas. That's great. Apart from writing, but writing's at home. Your beard looks great. Thanks. Your hair shorter than I expected. No, there's a little, you got a little something there. A little bit of heat.

I had to trim it for tag reshoots. Oh, tag reshoots. Your hair's a little something going on in that, too. A little something. Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I think that movie could potentially surprise some people. Well, if you told me the name that it's about people playing tag, I'm not sure.

You'd be blown away and you would say let's win awards. I'd be like, let's go. I assume it's a can, but when is it opening here? You would say the Academy Award goes too. Yeah, that's how I preface the conversation. But then I see who's in it. Got JJ in it. It's like to see you.

Pass on everybody else. It's a big cast. So here's... You got Ham and Renner, two objects of enormous fascination for this podcast. Oh, really? Those are two guys for you. Yeah. Well, Ham, I have since met friendly guy. Yeah. Great actor. Have you sat down with them?

Never sat down with them. We've had two handshakes, and my wife has not forgiven me because I, you know, this is the first time we've spoken since I moved to Los Angeles. Sure, I moved here for career. I get to do the podcast with Chris. But why did she come? With the thought that if she just strolled by little dums, like on a Tuesday, she might see John. She would leave me for him. Look, she's not wrong. He's very handsome in person. And his handshake is...

And I got to say, he's a really nice guy. That sucks. It's terrible. He's a very likable human being. That's the worst. Yeah. The movie... So here's what happened to me.

I would love to keep talking about John Ann. Oh, we're going to move to Renner in a second. So you do your little spiel about the movie. But truly, both of those... I was with John way more than Renner. Okay. And you'll see when you see the movie Why. It's our group is trying to really get Renner.

but he's kind of the untouchable or untaggable. And you're telling me I'm rusty. You still got it. Thanks, baby. But what really pulled me in the movie, so when I first heard the pitch, Jeff Tom Zick, the director of it, who I'd known through a friend Steve Berg,

who's also in the movie, he gave me the pitch and it was a hard pass. There was an instant, I have zero desire in being in tag about a group of 40-somethings, plain tag. Partly because you're still in your 30s. You're mid to late 30s. Thank you for saying that.

Yeah. I always check now. See which side of the dark river my guests are on. And just please enjoy these next six, seven weeks. Thank you. But it did not seem like a movie that needed to be made. And then I heard it was based off a true story. And there's a little doc about the actual guys doing it.

And I watched it. And I really liked it. Because I did have that thing where I thought like, This is fundamentally very stupid. But as like what they're doing. And then they just lean in so hard. And you go, oh, what this really is about is about how do you stick close with people you care about year after year when life starts pulling you apart? And I was like, I like, I like that.

And then so I talked to the director and I'm like, how are you going to shoot tag? Yeah. What are we going to be in a wide shot running around playing grab ass? I was like, honestly. Because if so. If so, I'll pay for this. But I don't want to film it. Oh, wow.

No cameras. Artistic. It's a play. No audience. And I want all unknown actors so I can do what I want. You are good at business. The ideas are just... That idea cost me $500,000 in lawsuits.

But the shoot day was cheap. All settled. There was a park with a couple of hobos. But when I said, how are you going to shoot the actual tag? because I thought, the way this movie gets in real trouble is John and I are in a room and they say, just start trying to play tag and then improvise. And we're running around and like trying to come up with jokes. And he said, I want to shoot the action like it's a straight up action movie.

And he said, we're going to take the tag of it so seriously that it will be stupid. He goes, we're making one of the weird or stupid or movies. But I think it's going to be really fun. And so, you know, shooting this, the action for tag and shooting the action for the mummy with Tom Cruise didn't feel that different. The lead actress is in both. Yes, Annabelle.

Annabelle is in both. So that was a nice bridge for you. But like the way the crew built sets, the way we did things, the stunt coordinators, I would have to remind myself, we're doing tag. And then... It's really not that different than doing the mummy.

I mean, what... Which is, we're play acting. Look, we're talking about products. We're talking about quarter pounders with cheese. Which are delicious. Which are delicious, if that's what you like. But now you've got a lot of different options. Are you going back to the sushi idea?

Because legally, I feel like you should not. Go back to the sushi idea. I think we should let that way. As soon as this one ends. But so it was, I was then really interested, but on the fence. And I thought the key for this personally was going to be. Because I was involved very early. I did an uncredited rewrite with Jeff

where we started like talking things out. And it was before the movie was real, or it was real, but it was me and Ed Helms at that point. But I don't even think he was official, but I know he was a producer on it. And then when the cast started coming in, it felt like a joke. Yeah.

It was like, when I heard Jeremy Renner's interested, and I was like, why? And then they're like, I La Fisher once said, I Love Fisher is one of the funniest human beings on planet Earth. And I was like, I LaFisher's going to do it? And then Leslie Bibbs is going to do it? Yeah. Like, Leslie Bibbs.

hard, funny. And then Hannibal will do it. And then John Hamm's going to do it. And then it just like, it keeps going up. Rashida Jones is going to do it. So... Did you try to talk anyone out of it or you just took it? Well, I pitched them my movie. Oh. Grab tag. Yeah. Which was a financial nightmare. I see. You're wearing it well. Yeah. I've not, it doesn't feel good. That one was a disaster. And I'm still in post. I'm still editing grab tag. Thank you for taking time. Yeah. It's a, Andy, this one. one's embarrassing. This one bottoming me out financially. Wow. And emotionally. We're going to, we're going to rebound hard in this podcast. We're going to find a way at the end.

I don't want to get into grab tag. It's too dark. It's too dark for now. But so that was that movie and it was fun and I think, look, this could go two ways. You and I could be talking next fall and I can go, I knew that movie was going to be a disaster. And the critics were right. And the audience was right. This wasn't the temperature for tag. Or I could go, you know, I told it it could surprise some people. And so I'm going to go optimistic. Nice, I like that. I'm going to say it's not going to be the critical darling. We're not going to be at the Indy Spirit Awards.

Right. But I do think those who see this movie, I saw a cut of it, it's without doubt a fun movie, and it feels like one of those fun summer movies. I got to ask you about Renner. Please. Just briefly, because we said at the beginning of the podcast, there are not that many people in the acting profession

who just do it, you know, it's just a business for them. Right. The reason we're obsessed with Jeremy Renner is not just his incandescent performances on screen, it's that he seems to really only be motivated by his house flipping business. But like in all interviews, he's fairly straightforward about that. Like, yes, I guess I have to go to Atlanta to shoot arrows for the Avengers. But there's a mid-century modern. Is that true?

You know, in South Pass that. I'm going to flip that and make a fortune. Not in so many words said by his mouth into a microphone, but this is just me. I didn't get that sense from him. he was, to his credit, a real gamer on this movie. Day one of shooting his stuff, he has to jump off a high ladder. And he's got wires on him.

And it's his character is up at a church and jumps. But it's like a 20-foot drop. But he's on wires. So you're not supposed to get hurt, but it doesn't feel great. And when the wires pulled him, they pulled his upper body a little bit more than his lower body.

So as he's like pulled towards the ground. Yeah. So he landed awkward, put his hands down to not hit his face, and broke a bone and broke a bone. Oh my God. It's as dangerous to the new girl set. Worse. Yeah, that's true. I actually was injured to a new girl, which is not the coolest thing.

Thanks for pointing that out. Yeah, coming back to that. Went to the hospital, took eggs for his fractures. Now, not displaced fractures, but he broke his bones. God. Later that day, he was back to him. to work shooting tag. So he does,

so he does the work. So that's my only thought. If he was just for the house flip, that's a very easy, I can't come to work today. You're going to have to shoot me out faster. But Jeremy Runner showed up, did his stuff.

And, you know, we all thought because he left, there was talk between cast and crew where we're like, wow, I think this movie's getting derailed. Like,

I think it's day three. Like, holy shit, this hilarious. This is over. Yeah. We're done. I think we're done.

Because you're not replacing him now, it's too late. We are ready, like, wow, this movie's over. That's so weird, that's never happened. And I'm like, John, pleasure to meet you, man. Go Cubs Go. I hate the Cardinals. That's already awkward. Nice to meet you, man.

And then all of a sudden he got word. Riders coming back. And I was like, oh. Okay. Okay. I realize there are many things still on the plate for us, but we got to let Chris have his say. We got to set up his interview. So I know because this may, in fact, be your last promotional appearance for a number of reasons,

both litigious, professional, creative, social, and familial. Would you like to send us out? Would you like to set up Chris's interview with a filmmaker? Would you like to send a message to people a farewell of your time in this business

and in their lives? I'll set up, Chris. The interview really passed on to do a farewell. Get ready for a boring interview. This subject's cool, but I bet somebody could have done a better job. Good luck, Chris. If during it, you think those are bad questions.

I told you so, and I've literally never heard it. And think who could have done it instead. Just imagine. At all times going forward on the watch. Just imagine. That first name is very flexible. It doesn't have to be that way. We have an app running.

We could switch that out. How fast could those social media guys really quickly just too late? They've been rebranding for the last 40 minutes, a hard rebrand. And then to everybody who's watched my stuff, who have allowed a kid from the suburbs of a, Chicago to live his dream. I thank you. And farewell.

Adigato. Hey guys, quick break for a word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Thomas's English Muffins. This is so exciting because Thomas's English muffins have been an integral part of my mornings since I was a kid, Chris Ryan's as well. There is nothing quite like an irresistible nooks and crannies texture. You know how long they've had the tag phrase nooks and crannies? Like, this is formative for me.

it's still the thing because guess what? It's real. That's really in the muffin. And that's where the butterpools. That's where all the good stuff is. Perfectly toasted, crispy edges, that soft, warm center. I love a delicious burst of flavor from a Thomas English muffin. My family loves Thomas's English muffins. My in-laws love it.

This is a rare subject that there's universal acclaim for. So Thomas's Nooks and Crannies English muffins are truly like no other. Put one in the toaster now and then listen to the podcast. Today's episode of The Watch is also brought to you by, First Leaf. Guys, when it comes to buying wine, most of our choices are made out of habit. You know my habits.

I will look for some interesting California Chardonnays. Maybe we'll get some Chablis going on. But the point is, even I get stuck in a rut sometimes. First Leaf is a new online wine club that's putting a stop to boring wine buying. It uses your reviews to make personalized wine selections match to your tastes. Go to their website.

You answer three quick questions about your wine drinking preferences. And then you can get started with an introductory three pack of that usually go for $20 a piece, except you're going to get them for $5 each. You taste them, you rate them online. First Leaf takes those ratings and then selects new wines that you'll like based on your taste. The more wine you taste and rate, the better they customize your box. Side note, the more wine you taste and rate, the more wine you taste. There is no downside here.

For First Leaf, you never have to worry about spending money on a bad bottle of wine because they guarantee you love the wine you buy, or you get your money back. Try First Leaf Club, where buying great wine is simple. So to get your three pack of introductory wine for only 15 bucks, go to try firstleaf.com slash watch. That's three wines for only $15 on your first order at tryfirstleaf.com slash watch. Experience First Leaf today at tryfirstleaf.com slash watch. Hey guys, we're about to get into my interview with Ryan Koo.

Ryan, somebody I've known for about 10 years now, maybe a little bit longer. I knew him when he and I both used to work at MTV. And when I knew him back then, Ryan was working on a web series called The West Side that he had done, which was about sort of a modernization of a, you know, Hatfield and McCoy's style Western set on the west side of Manhattan and kind of like a dystopia. Since then, he's basically been working on this film Amateur,

which now comes out, it came out on Friday on Netflix. And Amateur is the story of a prep school basketball player, a 14-year-old kid played by Michael Rainey Jr., who you may know from power, and he has a basketball play that goes viral, and he becomes subject of a feeding frenzy for these prep schools, and you get to see the underbelly of high school,

basically prep school athletics, prep school basketball. His father is played by Brian White, his mother is played by Sharon Leal, and Josh Charles, who many of you know from Dead Poet Society, and the good wife, plays the basketball coach.

It's a really, really cool, movie. I talked to Ryan about the seven-year journey from short film to feature film to festivals, to working on this, to trying to sell it, to getting it to Netflix and getting it on people's computer screens basically all around the world. And it was a really interesting conversation just about everything that goes in to getting something made in 2018. So enjoy our conversation with Ryan Koo and be sure to check out amateur on Netflix. All right, it's my pleasure right now to be joined by a friend of mine. We've known each other since like the early 2000s. I can't believe now we're referring to that as early 2000s.

Long time ago. Filmmaker Ryan Koo, who's out here in Los Angeles, he's got our Netflix movie. Congratulations, man. Amateur. It's coming this Friday, I guess that would be April 6th on Netflix. Ryan, welcome to the watch, man. It's great to be here. Why don't we start? I know obviously a lot about your story and a lot about this movie. For people who don't know much about it, tell me about what amateur is about and a little bit we can get into after that, we can get into like how you kind of arrived at this point in your career.

But tell me a little bit about what amateur is about. Sure, yeah. It's about a 14-year-old basketball player who his highlight video goes viral. And, you know, he's hoping to one day be perhaps one of those kids on the one-shounding moment montage that you would have just seen this week. But he's 14. He's in eighth grade and he's at the beginning of his journey. And, you know, the internet has exposed these kids really early with these highlight tapes and with, with, scouting websites and getting ranked really young.

So he's facing a lot of pressure at a really young age. And this is a project that you've obviously been working on for years in different iterations, right? So this was something you had a short version of this that you had taken around to festivals and worked on, and then you decided to make a feature version of it. Was it the case of like you felt like there was more meat on the bone you wanted to extend it into a feature-length film? Or was it something that maybe some producers or financiers or be like, hey, there's something here you should explore this as a feature? How did that work out? I had actually been writing the feature for a while.

Okay. And I hadn't directed anything that was basketball. So that's where the short came from was to find something that was more doable. The short, it's also called amateur. It's out there on Vimeo and YouTube. It's just a one-on-one game, which obviously requires a lot less to film. In terms of resources, there's nobody in the gym. It's an empty gym.

So basically, by being a conversation between two people, I could control the situation and not need a budget. So that was where that came from. And it was kind of a side idea to the feature. But the feature was always something that I'd been working on and was hoping to get made. And then thankfully Netflix came on and made it a reality. The basketball scenes in this movie are really good. They're obviously made by somebody who loves basketball

and also someone who recognizes that I think that the major quality in good basketball movies is when you have actors who can play basketball. We like to have a lot of fun here. I think the Edward Norton American History X. The dunk. the great moment of that guy can't really play basketball. But can you tell me a little bit about shooting basketball? Because this is something that I've always been fascinated by ever since

Hoosiers or White Men Can't Jump, where I'm like, it seems like an actually very unique act to film because it must be so hard to block. Can you talk a little bit about, especially expanding from one-on-one to team games, what it was like to learn how to film team basketball? Absolutely. The first thing is that your actors really have to be able to play, so you're not just cutting from a millisecond here to a millisecond there. And you're listening to one dribble. And with basketball, even just the way someone catches the ball and the way they set up in a three-point stance, it's like you know whether they can play or not immediately. So the first thing was just casting and making sure that everyone who was an actor by background could really play basketball, or in many cases on the team, we just cast basketball players who never acted before.

Right. But the shooting of it that you're talking about, it's definitely complicated because we're all used to seeing basketball from the sideline. And there's 10 guys in the court. From that upper angle that goes up and down. Exactly. And making a major movie with sizable equipment, if you put the camera in the middle of the floor, you've got to make sure that everyone is moving and not running into the camera and getting injured. So my objective was to really put the audience in the middle of the action as if they were a player and they're right there with our protagonist, Toronto Forte. And so that required a lot of half-speed rehearsal and then speeding it up gradually and then really having everyone hit their marks from the cameraman to the players got to make the shot. You know, otherwise you've got to do what the take. And really not relying on editing, but just showing that everyone could really play and making it feel like the experience of being a player as opposed to being a spectator. In the moments, was there any moments from the set where either A, you guys just could not get something done because a basketball play wasn't coming off or where. where you guys were maybe filming or maybe something technically

went wrong on the camera side but the players that you were filming pulled off something incredible were there any funny moments in actually shooting the sport? Sure. The one that took a while was there's a moment in the movie where Michael Rainey Jr., our lead actor from power,

he had to hit a shot and sort of do the Steph Curry turn. You know, he gets to release it and then turn around and stare somebody down while still making the shot. And that's a shot that the way we shot it, we actually could have cheated. All the basketball is real.

We could have just dropped the ball on the hoop. But on an indie like this, it's a sports movie, but it's an indie, you're really hustling to move. And if you want to get somebody with a ladder to come over and try to drop a ball into the hoop, it's going to take longer. So you're better off just doing it until he makes the shot. Yeah, right. No, it didn't take 30.

But, you know, for the actor, too, you're doing it, and all the other players have to reset and do all their movements and then the extras are all cheering. So it creates sort of a pressure environment. for your actor, just as if it was a real game. One of the moments that was a pleasant surprise was there's a stadium sequence, and I sort of wrote a, I kind of wrote the Kobe fade away long two, terrible shot, you know, in terms of efficiency. Sure.

The analytics would not agree with this shot. Darryl Morey rolls his eyes. Yeah, exactly. So I wanted the opposing team to pull off one of these Kobe shots, and we were rehearsing and choreographing and setting it up. and the first take the guy just made the shot and we were like, wait a second, we had this scheduled for, you know,

for a few more hours in the day of shooting, but he made it. Let's go watch the playback and then we can move on and get ahead of schedule for once. Was there any degree to which you add in athletic performance into what is already probably a very vulnerable position for people to be acting?

So is Michael also conscientious of like what he's like as a player as well as what he's like as an actor? because I would imagine that would be an added layer to beyond just like, hey, good take, man. Thanks for delivering that emotion and getting to the narrative place I needed you to get within that scene. But there's also like the psychological element of constantly having to think about how they look, how they're going to look on camera and stuff like that. Did you notice that, like, awareness about on the part of the cast?

As a director, I usually don't like actors to watch playback because they can get self-conscious about some of the things you're talking about. In the case of this movie, I had that be the case for everything except basketball because I think people knew they were doing a smaller film that had really big basketball scenes. And so we wanted to show them what we were doing and how it looked and how it looked in slow motion and all these things. And that would give them, I think, a lot more confidence going into the successive scenes to know that we were getting it right. Yeah. One of the things I loved about the film is the typical sports movie, relationships, whether it's like tough dad, coach, slick coach or whatever,

they all have a little bit more nuances. And I particularly really, really enjoyed Brian White's performance. I thought that there was a lot of like shades to that performance. When you're writing something like this, when you're making a sports movie and you're probably like, I'm sure like me, a huge lover of sports films, how aware of it are you of cliche, of things you kind of want to echo, things you want to avoid?

What were some of the things that were bouncing around when you were writing this and then when you were filming it. Well, all of those things, it's such a hard genre to work in because there have been so many sports movies, and people's immediate reaction to it is, I've seen that before. And that's always a little bit strange to me because some of these people that are saying that are probably going to watch a rom-com at the theater this weekend

with like the same tropes and this, you know, this sort of like middle-aged white people dealing with relationship problems. And it's like, wait a second, when was the last basketball drama, really? I mean, are these cliches, or is this something that's really prevalent in our real world? world. So you do have to navigate that. For me, the approach was to try to bring a level of authenticity and nuance to it. So even if the character feels like somebody you might have seen

in a movie before somewhere, that there is an additional layer. And Brian White, as the father, as a former football player in the movie, has a whole other element going on where you're seeing your son potentially be a superstar. But you're also knowing what the aftermath of giving your entire life to trying to be an athlete and failing what that could be. You guys do it. It's such an great economic scene when they first pick him up when he's walking home from school and that little exchange about your, it's a bad day for him, and, you know, he doesn't play anymore.

I love that exchange. I should also say that Brian is the son of the late great Jojo White, the NBA Hall of Famer, and Brian was a football player himself. Yeah. So I think what you're seeing in his performance is that he has so much. much history himself and having been a player and, you know, played in NFL Europe and sort of, you know, been on the cusp there before he became a successful actor is that he knew what that character was going through innately.

Some of the, I don't know if you're a fan of the show Veep, but I've been reading some interviews with Armando Ionucci recently because he had the film Death the Stalin out. That's really quite funny. And he's been talking about how challenging it is to satirize politics in this day and age. and I was almost wondering if with the current climate of the NCAA and whether in your own research for stuff for amateur, you were like, I don't even know if people would believe this. Even little small things that you were presenting early on in the film,

like when it's clear that there's kind of these two schools that he's really, there's the athletic factory, but then there's also like the regular prep school that he's going to. Like little things like that that I didn't know, but was there other stuff that you came across in research where like, is anybody going to believe this? Like, it's because some of it borders on the absurd, especially in real life. Exactly.

I think the truth is stranger than fiction in sports. And there are so many things that I encountered in research that I just said, if I put that in a movie, it's not going to be believable. Like, we're trying to bring a certain gritty authenticity to everything. But because it's still, at its heart, youth basketball, if you really go farthest with, these are the dirtiest things that are going on, and this is how bad it gets, that I would basically just send the script to people that didn't know sports. sports and then see whether they believed it or not because everything has happened. Yeah. And this movie doesn't even get close to the worst things that have happened.

So we definitely had to just pull back to feel what was believable in a fiction setting. Sure. Can you tell me a little bit about working with Josh Charles? He's obviously probably the biggest name involved in the movie. I thought he did a really good job, like having that kind of like at once, kind of like a nice, you know, wholesome Brad Stevens quality and then some darker qualities. what was it like, you know, getting him involved in the project and what did his involvement mean for the project

in terms of like selling it or getting more eyeballs on it? It meant a lot. He's a sports fan, right? Big sports fan. Yeah. You know, he's a Baltimore guy. He was a star on Sports Night, the show. And that was part of why I approached him

because I figured he'd have a passion for sports. Also, someone who'd done The Good Wife for years. And a lot of people, when they've played really successful, roles on television, part of the idea of what you're going to do next is to find an interesting role in maybe something that's a smaller indie or, you know, whatever it may be. So I think the timing was right to get him on board there. And he and I did a lot of work on the character to find that ambiguity in the shades of gray of somebody in his position who's caught in this larger game and with larger institutions and rule, a 400-page rule book. Yeah. That he has to navigate while still

trying to win games. So Josh is a fantastic actor, and as somebody who was also a child actor himself, if you go all the way back to Dead Poets Society, he was probably Michael's age when he filmed that. So it was also nice for me as a director to have somebody who knew what it was like to be in Michael's shoes and who could be working with Michael on these scenes and all of us together, you know, finding what we were trying to accomplish and getting it across that way. Yeah, I mean, both in the film and in real life, you're seeing. this um it's a lot there's a lot of plausible dynamibility going on and even for somebody who's got a story is sort of littered with darkness as patino where he has created this world around him where he

can sort of say i had no idea even if he is the person who is ultimately accountable and i thought that was something you guys brought in where it's like you know it's not until you really really get close to the sport that you realize like what a huge industry basketball is was there a part of you as a huge fan, where's the gut check part about whether, you know, because like, you're obviously also like, I fucking love basketball and I really want to like make a basketball movie, but then you're also depicting this world that's like essentially vampiric in a lot of ways, you know, like where's your head at when it comes to like celebration versus criticism versus just like an honest portrayal?

Sure, yeah. I mean, some of that I hope if you watch the movie on Netflix, so by the end, some of that comes across in terms of where you walk the line and who you're championing and who you're potentially seeing as maybe more of a villain in the world. But what I really wanted to get across was, and one of the reasons why it's about a 14-year-old, is that pure joy of playing and how much it means to be free on the court away from some of the pressures off of it. And so that was kind of what my love for the game was put into that part of the movie and then maybe some of the more the rule book and the institutions and some of the

restrictions on that freedom was what I wanted to explore was sort of the darker side of the movie and asking questions about why things are the way they are and maybe what they should be going forward I mean it's kind of it's nice because there's there's some parts of it that I think are inherent to the very specific and in somewhat corrupt way in which we promote youth sports and that youth sports becomes college sports and pro sports. But then there's some stuff that's just like what happens at like boarding schools and like what happens in groups of young men and like how they kind of haze each other and how they break each other in and how they like kind of test one another. I'm curious about the parallels and I guess this is sort of, you know,

I don't really know how the best to sort of articulate this, but I've known you for a while. I knew you when you were making, it was essentially like, I don't even know if this is antiquated at this point, but a web series. You know, I guess that's just like digital content now. And I knew when you were trying to like, you know, get this stuff going with amateur. And I'm wondering if you saw any parallels between the system that you've obviously been a part of for the better part of a decade now, if not more. And the system of amateur to pro athletics. And like, I would imagine that the similarity would be the amount of people that you look around sometimes and you're like, what do you do?

Like, what are you doing here, man? Like, what are you in this for? Oh, yeah, I don't know if you can talk about that freely without feeling like you're burning bridges. But I was just curious about whether or not there are some similarities between the experiences. I think what it comes down to is both in basketball and in film.

There are very few people that actually make the thing. Yeah. And then there are a ton of people around it profiting off of it. But unlike in amateur basketball, which is where it's tied to a school and there are restrictions on being paid. In film, at least you,

even if you're not going to make much money and for me working on this movie for seven years, it's not the money that's the motivation. But at least I'm allowed to be paid. Sure. And I think what it is, is like both of them, the similarities that you're picking up on are you're trying to be at the 99th percentile of whatever it is you do.

and the other 98 percentile, you know, are not able to make it. So it's just that the parallels are that it's incredibly hard work and that very few people make it out. Seven years and now Netflix. What was the process of getting it to Netflix? How did that work? I think that obviously they've been in the last two years on this huge content push where they're getting a lot of stuff up there.

What was the process of getting together with them? Sure. I was pitching this movie for years, but Netflix wasn't making movies at the time. They had started doing original series. They had done House of Cards and Orange is the New Black and a lot of shows that you and Andy have talked about. But they were going to festivals and seeing finished movies that they're the worldwide TV network. They want every territory in the world. And if they wanted that, they needed to get involved at the beginning of movies. So for me, trying to make this movie, which maybe didn't ascribe very closely to what was a traditional independent film, which usually the audience is a little bit older and whiter. You know, people go to art house theaters,

and there's certainly not movies that star, a 14-year-old black kid in their lead because you're trying to find recognizable faces overseas and these kinds of things. When Netflix started deciding that they were going to make original movies, we were actually one of the first ones they signed up to make because it made so much sense for them. It's the right platform for the movie

to reach the target audience and to speak to sort of some of the larger, societal things that, you know, NBA players are watching Netflix all the time. I mean, it's really great to be there. But we were, basically, I was just pitching the movie until they decided they wanted to start making movies. And then we were off to the races? So did they come in and were they a production partner?

Or were they more like, you give us the movie when you're done and we'll handle the distribution? Oh, they financed this movie from the script stage. Oh, that's great. And so they were our partners all along. They were fantastic creatively. Yeah. And their notes were great.

And, yeah, I mean, as I couldn't be more excited now to be on that platform as well, because it's just they can just algorithmically, magically, you know, put it right in front of people that they think are going to like it. And I think we have a really large audience for this movie for a first-time feature. So I have a couple of questions about this. One is that I'm curious about if this is your lifelong dream to make a film and have your film coming out, how does it feel to have it coming out to my computer

and millions of other people's computers versus, I think, what you and I probably grew up with, which is just like you're like pounding the streets at festivals. And then even if it gets picked up by a distributor, you're probably right now on a like whistle stop tour across the country doing promo for it in every little city, every college town that might pick it up in their art theater. Am I right?

Like that would probably be the fate for this movie in 2006, right? So how does it feel not anticlimactic? it obviously. But what's it like? How do you go out promoting a movie that is going to be available to literally everyone with a Netflix account? Well, first of all, I've always actually put content online. I mean, the first thing I recognized for was a web series. And then when I made the short titled amateur, we also didn't take, we went to festivals later, but we actually just premiered it on Vimeo. So that's always been, I guess my track has been to try to put it out there into the larger digital world

as opposed to a few hundred people maybe in a theater. It's strange in a way, you know, because as you said, you sort of grow up with a certain ideal and then the world has changed by the time you get there. But the thing that's been so rewarding about it is that Netflix is such a huge, globally recognized brand and platform that when they post the trailer

and you're talking about hundreds of thousands of views or millions of views to see the engagement and the way that people are so excited, to watch it and people tagging each other on Facebook and saying, hey, come over to my house and stuff. Yeah, right. Or saying, hey, can I get that NF that password? It would be cool just for like your friends and family where it's like if you were just

releasing this in a movie theater and you're like, guess what I, my movie's coming out. Who, like, you know, New York, L.A., Chicago, whoever, but like, what if people were like in North Carolina or wherever or wherever were like, yeah, well, I mean, let me know when it comes the video or let me know when I can rent it. And it's like, no, you guys can, everybody, everywhere can watch it. It must be super exciting. Is it too early to talk about what's next? Probably.

But I will also say that I think some of the best, I don't know about you, but some of the best movie experiences I've had have been where I didn't know anything about the movie. Yeah. And part of what happens sometimes when you go to the traditional route and it's at a festival

and there are a ton of reviews out there months before it comes out. And then there are seven different versions of the trailer. By the time a movie comes out, you know so much. Whereas for us, we did the trailer and Netflix did a great job with a poster. but really some of the things

that I'm engaging with in the movie they get to be surprises for the viewer. Also, I mean, there's probably a lot of people I mean, especially with the way, just anecdotally from like, especially seeing from the younger people we work with,

the amount of stuff on Netflix that they give a chance to that they don't do for stuff that's on linear television where they're just not, they're not saying like, oh, I'm going to DVR this thing that's on FX or AMC

and check it out just to give it a shot. Whereas like when they, open their computer Friday night when they get home, they pretty much check out, like whatever they're seeing on the home page of Netflix, just like, hey, I'll give it a shot. That's, that's pretty exciting. It is exciting, and they have so many ways that they can surface content to people that they think are going to like it. And it's going to live forever there.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And over time, I think you might see something pop up on your Netflix with a different image than it was before, and maybe you weren't in the mood for it one Friday night, but then you watch it a month later, and it's a really interesting, maybe very efficient way of delivering content. I was just thinking about some of these blockbusters where someone, the studio will spend $300 million in the movie, but then they have to spend

$300 million to market it as well. And whereas if you have a very technologically advanced algorithm and people are checking in on your platform every day, certainly several times over the weekend, there's a way that you can spend more of that money on content than marketing. You can always just like

recut the movie, recast the trailer as like a midlife crisis movie starring Josh Charles, you know? Like kind of like a one That's your wandering heartbroken romantic comedy indie right there. I'll have to ask Josh about that. Yeah, it might not be in his deal. All right. So the movie comes out Friday.

This is the end of, I guess, a seven-year labor of love for you. How hard is it to move on to the next thing? Like, do you start, have you started already thinking about the next thing? It doesn't even have to be specific what that thing is. I'm just, when something is in the chamber for so long, how hard is it to let go? It's really hard. especially because the way it's coming out on Netflix, the world has not engaged with it yet.

Yeah. You know, we didn't have that sort of preamble. Screenings and stuff, yeah. So I'm just, I want to see it all the way through to the end and enjoy the release and the engagement and the conversation online. You should live stream when it goes live. Like you should be like you should periscope it. Yeah.

So we'll see. But I think, you know, one of the nice things about doing a sports movie is, unlike a lot of first time indies, it does use a lot of the tools in the cinematic language. toolbox, and it's kind of like an action movie in that way. So as a director, that's exciting to have done that. As you pointed out, you know, have carried out the complicated blocking and then know that that's something I can bring to other genres, which I'm excited about. Okay, awesome. All right. It's on Friday, April 6th, amateur director Ryan Kuh, and we can't wait

to have him back with whatever he is next. Thanks, Chris. Guys, did you forget? Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by the gods at Thomas's English Muffins. These are breakfast worth skipping the snooze button for. Thomas' is the only breakfast brand that delivers a one-of-a-kind eating experience with its original nooks and crannies. I would argue it's a unique breakfast experience

because everybody loves them. Maybe you like butter on yours. Maybe you like almond butter. Maybe you like avocado and sea salt because you live in California and there's natural bounty everywhere you look. The point is there's nothing quite like that nooks and crannies texture. You can use a fork to split them.

You toast each half. You watch the butter melt and pool inside those nooks and crannies. You love it. You already love it. But if you're one of those strange people who has never experienced with Thomas English muffin,

go get them. Toast and butter, some nooks and crannies. Enjoy them today. They're truly like no other.