The Watch - Jason Mantzoukas Loves 'Legion,' David Milch, and 'True Detective' (Ep. 137)

Episode Date: March 30, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald are joined by comedian Jason Mantzoukas to discuss his love of comic books, the show 'Legion' (1:10), the series finale (20:20), and how excited he is about David Milch’s rumored involvement with a third season of 'True Detective' (28:55). Jason also talks about a few of his experiences working in Hollywood (49:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and with your premium subscription, listen to Live MLB games on Tunein. Just go to Tunein.com. Ringer and subscribe, download the Tunein app, and start listening today. Tune in your Everything audio app. Hey guys, today is a very special episode of the watch. Andy and I were joined by Jason Manzuka, one of our favorite actors. You can see him on Brooklyn Nine-N-Nine, the League. He was briefly in Gilmore Girls, as he's happy to tell us.

Jason came by to talk to us about television. We talked a little bit about the end of Legion season one and the possibility of True Detective Season 3, where we just lost our minds about David Milch and Deadwood and Luck and all the things that David Milch has ever done. So it's a very long Legion talk, a very long David Milch talk. It was a really fun episode.

Thanks for listening. I need sports to have to clear the room. Come up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor for the Rigger.com and I am joined in the studio, of course, by my favorite mutant, Andy Greenwald.

I thought you were going over here. We have a guest today. Who's my favorite movie? Introduce our guest, man. Joining us today. Two times. This is the second time. I hope he understands he's family now.

He's in. He's in. Blood in. Never blood out. Jason Hanzukas, welcome. What's happening, boys? What's up, man? We are thrilled to be here.

We are so excited you could join us here. Just on a Thursday. Yeah. It's wonderful. Oh, yeah. Middle of the day on a Thursday? We love having you here. It's a dream come true.

More professional than we are. You brought your own cans. You didn't use them, but I brought them. Here's the deal. What do I want? Other people's weird, creepy ears shit? You definitely don't. You know who sat in that chair?

Do you know how many people come in? I mean, here less so, but like where I do my podcast, there are the volume of sweaty, gross people that go in and use those headphones and then everybody just walks in. It's like, I guess I put these on. Did you work mostly at a CrossFit podcast? Yes. It's all, it's giant tires and podcasts. Wow. And sudden vomiting.

Yes. For both reasons. Absolutely. Here's the deal. Here's why we invited you other than, again, seriously open door policy. Absolutely. I'll be here every Thursday. Please.

Legion ended last night. Legion is the FX television show. Sorry, what's it? I worked on. Chris has never seen. And this puts us in a weird pickle. Sure. Because I worked on it, so I feel a little bit odd about talking too much about it.

Sure. As I just mentioned, Chris has never seen the show. He's unfamiliar with it. I've seen, come on. And Jason, being an incredibly nice guy, you told me that you had watched the show. Yes. I've confirmed now that you have seen all eight episodes. I have indeed.

So we wanted to talk about it. And I feel like with this motley assortment of points of. you worked on it, have watched it, literally doesn't know what I'm talking about. I think it's a perfect triangle. I have a further disclaimer. Oh. I auditioned for this show. Really? Yes. I auditioned just for

absolute transparent. For Daytona? No, for Potominy. No, for Potominy. Yes. Here's how I know this. Yes. Didn't know this. But here's why I could guess this. Because when I was working on the show occasionally we would get to see audition tape. Sure. And I knew that Potominy

for a time was written for a comedian with a beard. And, you know, when they couldn't find one that was good enough. God damn it. They recast it. God damn it. Oh, man. Yeah.

I auditioned. I was, and I was very excited. There are, there have been very few things that I see announced that I then tell my agents, I desperately want to be in this. Just do something in there. Whatever, whatever. Thursday's podcast. Yes. And they, oh, exactly.

The watch re-up. I want to talk about whatever we're talking about. But, and this way, and Legion, truthfully, was, one of them because A, this is like my straight down, like speedball down the middle for me growing up. Yeah, like Chris Claremont, Bill Sankovic, like huge in my life. I didn't even realize this. You even know how to say Sankovic. Absolutely.

I met them both a couple of years ago. Really? Yeah. And was like I had the experience of the wonderful experience of being famous enough that nerds kept coming up to me to be like, oh my God, I love you. Yeah. And then for me to then turn around to Bill Sankovic. and be like, oh my God, I love you. Pay forward.

And really have that full experience. So this was a huge show for me. And I was like, please, I'll audition for anything. Wow. And I did, and I did not get it. I don't know if people noticed, I did not get the point. Spoiler alert, the man in the fat suit was you. What was your experience like?

Did you read for Noah? Or were you just in a... No. I just went to tape. I just went to... I went in for casting and... Who did it? We're calling out names.

I can't remember who was the casting director. I went in for the casting. And read through it and blah, blah, blah. I don't know. And I do know that you then, you read the sides that ended up in the script. In episode two, there is a scene. His speech about who, like what his power said is, basically. Yeah, there's a scene where, and we, you know, this was for, I still don't understand why in episode two,

Potonomy and David are crouched in what appears to be a sort of bonside tree sculpture drinking milk. And that was the audition sides for Potominy. It was. Wow. road not taken. I know, right. Well, that kind of actually opens up the first question. This is a good first question to serve. What is Legion? What is it on? You guys are talking about a show. I just take it. No.

One of the things that was interesting about this show is that I think it actually subverted somewhat the tradition of comic book storytelling because typically what happens in comic books is the exposition comes along with everything else as the story goes along. So they're even taking breaks in the middle of scenes to just be like, by the way, you can catch up on this on episode. Sure. Or 112 of The Amazing X-Men. Or oftentimes books now start with a previously page.

Right. Just because there is such a dense narrative that they're building off of that they're always letting you in. Right. And I said to Andy today, I was like, I kind of feel like a herb because my favorite episode of Legion was seven, which was the most expository. Like, you know, it's like kind of the explainer post of this show. It was the Vox.com episode. But I loved the flare with which it went through all those steps. Like I kind of like really enjoy the classroom scene and all the scenes where they're kind of explaining what's happening in the show, but with the same visual panache that had that it had in the earlier part of the season. And I always, even though I felt like the show, the series was intentionally obtuse and difficult at times to follow, I never felt as though it's not, it doesn't know what it's doing.

I never felt like, oh, this is weird. or they're just great. Like, I never, you know, not to take shots. I never felt about this show the way I felt about Westworld, which was, I don't think they know what's going on right now. This is a safe place to take shots at Westworld. You know what I mean? This is a fine room for that.

You were some of the home crowd here. And so I never felt nervous. It never made me nervous. You know, like I come from an improv background, and there's nothing worse than an improv show that's going poorly. Because you're like, oh, not only is this not good, but I know they don't know where they're going. Right.

So it's unlikely to get better. This is why I think, among other things that are changing in the industry, one of the reasons why established showrunners will continue to be as big superstars as some actors, because to make the journey on a show, which is essentially that's what it is now, even if it just dumps on Netflix, 10 hours, 12 hours, it's a journey. You have to trust the person behind the wheel. And if you don't, and if that person shows rookie mistakes or you see the fear in their eyes, you bail after an episode or two.

Oh, yeah. And I think that's where, like, to your point of, like, people having access to all, all episodes all at once, I think you're only encouraging people to give up quicker. Yes. Because it might be only that one time they sit down to give it a chance. Yeah. And they give two or three episodes a chance. And then they're like, no, I'm out.

Yeah. Versus two or three episodes over two or three weeks interspersed with talking to friends about it or whatever. Any kind of, you know, continued interest might be built out of that. Cultural momentum. Yeah, that kind of goes away. I wonder whether or not this would have, I, I'm starting to try to, develop a theory of like what works as binge TV and what works as like serialized or retweak television. And I think that like for for binge television, it helps if it's just like we have one

question we need to answer. You know, it's like there's a central mystery that needs to be answered. You can finish this mystery as fast or as slow as you want to. But for something like Legion where it's much more like this, you know, origami bird of a plot and you have to like unfold it little by little and you notice different things. I don't know that I would have been able to like get through. it in two sittings, you know? It's filling.

It's a visually and sensory, a censorially filling meal. In that same way that I would not turn off 2001 and start full metal jacket. Yeah, right. Right. That's a wild night. You know what I mean? Like it has, like, these episodes are dense.

Yeah. And they are like purposefully, like, difficult to process, I feel. And in a way in which you don't have the complexity of narrative that say, Game of Thrones has, where you can just keep through, okay, now we're just going to go over to Dorn. Now we're just going to go over here. Now we're going to do that. But without that kind of, without all those avenues to go down, you are really just, Legion works as honing in on something, not building something out. Right.

The noisiest episode is the first. Yes. In a lot of ways. So you outed yourself as a comic book fan. Yes. I was as well. I have mentioned before on this show, and I think when I talked to Noah the other week, too, we did not talk about comic books. not a comic book fan.

You know, I think there was a copy of a graphic novel in the writer's room that never left our assistant's desk. It's also, yeah, well, yeah, go ahead. But my question, I think you probably guessed it. As a comic book fan, how did you relate to this? What did you like about it? Because I think that there was some concern, because we've reached this point in the culture where comic book stories are paramount.

Sure. But they are paramount in a certain way. People expect them to be told a certain way. And they expect that the quote unquote fanboy audience needs to be served. in a certain way. The show did none of that and still seems to have resonated. Well, later on it did.

But at least from jump, it appeared to show no interest in that. Sure, right. Yeah. It's interesting because I feel like I have, even though I love Claremont and Sankhevich and this is built out of

like my all-time favorite kind of new mutants, X-Men era of storytelling is like what I grew up obsessed with. Legion specifically, David Haller specifically is a character I don't really like and is an archetype of characters that I don't really like. How come?

Because he is so powerful as to be almost pointless. Right. You know what I mean? And as a result, you know, they cripple him with, you know, like severe mental illness. Yeah. In the books, I mean, in a somewhat interesting way. And what I feel like this show did correctly was focus on mental illness. Like it almost reversed the,

the percentages and focused more on the mental illness in a way that I thought was much more interesting and much more of a door into understanding a character than if they just introduced David Heller, like Omega-Level Mutant. Sure. Like this is, like they say in the last episode, he's a world killer. And that's what he is or that's what the molecule man is. These are people for whom their power set is so grand as to have made them insane. and then also to use them in storytelling becomes almost pointless or moot.

That's why they frequently, Legion and Molecule Man and a couple of others, are frequently just discarded and hidden. And then 15 years later, somebody would be like, well, I've got an idea for, you know, Legion to come back. And so suddenly they find Legion and he's been into coma for 10 years. Right. And whatever, you know. But I think that that's a good example of why the show may have worked.

because Noah's way into it was that of a, not of a comic book fan necessarily, he wasn't interested in the powers. He was interested in the metaphors and the analogies and the mental illness for everyone. That was the first, that was the most important thing. And then went at it in an almost backwards way

as opposed to the slavish devotion to what the characters are quote of what's supposed to be because they've been this way forever. And it's like building a superhero team, what could be more interesting than building a superhero team out of a mental institution? Right.

You know, rather than like, we're making the team. You know, like it was, that's what I really liked about the show, is that it focused on like true human vulnerabilities and stuff that was accessible as a viewer, whether or not I think you had read their books or were familiar even with superhero archetypes. I think it still works.

It's challenging for, like, it actually does remind me, Legion does remind me a lot of X-Men in that it has a lot of its own complicated inner logic that it requires it requires it once I guess suspension of disbelief but also a full investment into where yeah

this is the astral plane but then in the astral plane there's also this cube and then in the ice cube there's also this you know all these rules that happen within these basically non-physical spaces

that we're looking at that actually once I gave into those things it was much easier to understand I think in the first few episodes I was like I just don't where's true north here you know and I think that that actually was the right way to think about it

because later in the season and there's kind of, and this is something I want to get to, but this idea of this reveal that everything you've seen is not actually what you've seen. And I will say that, and I feel okay saying this because Noah himself said this when I spoke to him. We get it. You know Noah.

Holy Jesus. I just don't want to get, I just don't want to get in any trouble here. That's the guy at Fargo, right? He did, he did. And the unusual is with Jeremy Renner. I just don't want to get in trouble, guys. He said very clearly that the challenge of doing this show in a traditional way with a traditional role.

writer's room was that the writer's room's jobs generally are breaking story or fixing story, you know? And he's saying this and you're just like stroking your beard like, yes. I was like, no, I was like, yeah, it was really hard and basically impossible to do this job, but it was really fun. Because he would be like, yeah, there's an astralplane or this is, you know, the ice cube actually is a thing that came in even after I was gone. But these ideas that don't quote unquote make sense.

And then he would leave them in the room and then he would go to Vancouver to do, to do, to do like prep for directing the thing. And then what are you supposed to do with that? because it's purely on his gut and feel on what he wants to show. You can't make it make sense. It can only go on the sort of going back to like Young Pope. It can only go on like the nuns playing basketball made sense to Sorrentino. And so it made sense to us as an audience.

You kind of can't, you can't group think that to death. What do you think about, so I read this interview with Noah Day of Vulture. It's my second favorite Noah Halley interview that I've come across recently. That's Noel Holly is talking about, by the big enchilada. But they talked a lot about this idea of basically, it's not quite pulling the rug out from people. but it's almost like punishment TV. It's like, I'm going to basically be very demanding of you. It's an experience of television that I don't think we have very often,

especially for something that's supposed to be dominantly about a superhero, which is like this idea that you're going to really push audiences as far out as you can and then yank them back to what they think they want. And that is sort of what happens in episode seven, especially with the chalkboard rendering of our story. And it's kind of like, it is a comic and it is Professor X, you know, and it looks like him and there's even a Patrick's, Stewart imitation that happens. Which, by the way, I was surprised about.

Right. I thought, during my time on the show, my thought was that we were going to be going as far away from that as possible. Okay. To the point of maybe even never even acknowledging it. And then it probably makes sense. Did you think the backlit or like the silhouette of the dad talking to him in his bed earlier in the season was about as far as like the suggestion would go? During my working on the show, I mean, we always knew what the comic book character's history was, but we just never got into it. I guess we should say spoilers for the X-Men.

storyline, but Legion, David Haller is Charles Xavier's son. It was kind of hit on the head. They showed the wheelchair, which I did not, that was not in the cards which I was surprised by, but then still also was like, I wonder if people

will make that connection even still. What if Brett Ratner was like, what's happening in the show? Redder tinted his somewhere in a hot tub, Redder. He came out of a TP with a tuna beard and he was just like, Tell me more.

Take me to sushi park. Get Kelsey Grammar on the phone. Which meaning of... Which meaning of tuna beard are you using? That's my favorite Lord of the Rings character. He does get the ring. What we're talking about? I'm so ashamed what we're talking about.

Oh, Charles Xavier is Legion's dad. Which I thought is a very interesting thing. And I like that it's tied in to the Marvel universe, or to the X-Men universe rather, not Marvel. but if they never return to it, I don't care. I'm not looking for somebody to show up. I'm not looking for like, uh-oh, here's Colossus. And what you're speaking to actually is, I think, one of the main problems of the comic book shows that are, the other comic book shows that are on TV.

Sure, like the DC ones. The DC ones or even the Marvel Netflix ones to a degree. Some of them are good and some of them are great and some of them because over 13 episodes are good and great and also bad. Sure. But all of them, at times, feel like they are advancing corporate interests, which is the cynical way to say it, or they're advancing unified universe storytelling interests. They exist because the other ones exist. To make these Easter-Agy connections. Yes.

They exist to make more exist. Yeah. Right. And that was the argument around Iron Fist, which I haven't even made time to watch. But it seems like they made that show because they said they were going to make that show because they're making a show. Because they want to make the defenders. Right. And Iron Fist, by the way, Iron Fist.

really great series of the Brubaker faction. The Brubaker faction are great. But immediately upon them starting this was like, they should not do. This is not how they should do this. It's just not right, but they're doing it because they need to do it. So I think the goal is to be like,

okay, cool, maybe he is Charles Xavier's son, but why, we're not in a hurry. Who cares? There's the story here. So I want to know, Chris, for me, I want to know what you think. I want to know what you thought, having watched this show.

And specifically about, about Andy's work on it. No, I want to know just what you thought of as a show. The co-producing really struggled. So what did I think of Legion? Well, I'm just curious. When we last talked about it, I don't mean to put you on the spot here on our podcast, but when we last spoke about it, you had only seen some and then you finished it as a season of TV.

Because the takeaway that I most agreed with, I think, and this was, I'm not just saying this because it's in the family, but the ringers Allison Herman tweeted about it basically being like, I didn't think it was that confusing. If you look at it, it actually was a superhero show. I was getting out with like, yeah. And I think that's right. And I think that the one of the ways. It's no more confusing than reading age of apocalypse or reading about, it's less confusing.

Or reading about cable. Sure. I mean, like, yeah. But it had all these visual flourishes and things. And I feel like to me, what was exciting and made sense about that is the great advantage of genre storytelling is that it's elastic, that it's springy. That, you know, we talk about this with British crime shows. Like, it's always disappointing when the murderer is revealed.

But the twists and turns and stylistic things you can do along the world. of this track that people are already used to being on, that's where the excitement can come in. Yeah, I mean, I thought visually it was dazzling. I kind of have to say, like, Dan Stevens is one of my favorite actors. I really liked him in the guest anyway, and I really know him from Beauty and the Beast. He's really, I didn't know he had worked otherwise. He thought he only worked with large percentage. I just assumed he was like another Andy Circus kind of guy.

Bison hits. Just a motion capture kind of person. He's known as the third ape in war for the planet of the ape's. he's amazing and I think that I found the first half of the season kind of mentally challenging exhausting and I found the second half of the season

totally exhilarating what because we should be some servicey to some degree season finale thoughts end of the season just purely as a

there was I really enjoyed it there was a point where I was like we've been inside too much you know there was a point where I was like ooh, I feel like these last couple of episodes have been, oh, first of all, what I loved truly about the finale was the first, the Hamish Linklater. Yeah, that's so cool.

Backstory of his being burned and recovering and his having this husband and child who loved him and humanizing this otherwise villainous character in a way that was wonderful. And then once again, allowing him to be a villain, allowing him to move forward and continued to be a villain, which I really enjoyed. That was something that was in the room that people really were passionate about, not in that form, but there was always going to be... I was really glad there was still time for that. That is kind of, to some degree, a Fargo trick of like the switch of perspective and the

embellishment of a seemingly innocuous character. Yeah, I was excited about that too. And it's also a bit from the first Austin Powers movie. Where they kill a henchmen of Dr. Evils and then it cuts directly to a woman in a suburban and has getting a call that her husband has died at work and her freaking out about it. I just re-visited the Invisibles because it was in the Invisibles too. Oh, maybe.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But Austin Powers is a better kid. Have you spent much time with Will Ferrell's performance in the Austin Powers movies? Not really. Because it's pre-anchor man and it is like wild that he gets like five full minutes to do a bit. When he's dying in the pit and he's just like, I'm falling into this pit. It's very hot. It's very hot.

They knew. Yeah, they knew. They gave him a little. they gave a little room to shine. Oh, yeah. I agree with that. I really enjoyed that opening. I really loved that.

I love that setup in that opening. But then there was a period where I felt like the previous episodes had been building and building. Yeah. And then we once again got into a situation where it's like, oh, we need to have David be unconscious again, like in a bed strapped on. And I was like, oh, I get it. But like, I kind of wanted this to keep building out now. Yeah. One thing that I will say that is exciting, I think, going forward.

What did you think at the end of the season? Well, I think... I know you can't give it a grade, but like, were you like... That was like... It's interesting because the... It was very different in many ways from what I had worked on. You know, my work barely even got as far to the end of the season when I was working on the show. It ended with something that I knew...

The end and sort of where we were headed the next season was always there. I was excited to see that. Some of the how the things happened changed around. But honestly, to Jason's point, I agree. And I do not mean to disparage our... wonderful neighbors to the north. We may all need to be seeking shelter there sooner rather than later. But there was a feeling of a little bit of claustrophobic Vancouver-iness to it at the end.

The sets and the settings where they were. And I'm very excited that thanks to the munificence of Los Angeles County tax breaks, the show's moving to Los Angeles next year, which I think generally tends to have a good aesthetic effect on shows when they film here. Rather than in, honestly, and I don't mean to disparage Vancouver, which is a beautiful city, but none of the shows that film in Vancouver are like, We're in Vancouver. How great to take advantage of the Pacific Northwest.

They're all like... They're like, we're anywhere. We're in New York City. This is New Jersey? We're the place where you're where we said we are. So moving to a different place and then also setting up a more of a road story as opposed to being in a place that could be misconstrued as a Xavier's Institute. I think we'll open it up in the way you're saying.

But the bigger problem was this. Like the most interesting parts of the show were in someone's head. And so when the plot mechanisms demand that you actually rip interesting things out of someone's head, then it's hard to, it's hard to do. Yeah. Jason, how much are you allowing yourself to consider various X-Men storylines that could be season two? I'm not really, because I'm, for me, there are not many Legion-based X-Men stories that I want

told. Right. You know, and I'm much more heartened by the fact that it doesn't seem like that's where they're going, that they are, or maybe they are, I don't know, but like I'd rather them continue forward with what they've set the kind of table and see how this plays out. Yeah. Then I am like ooh, I hope they do like

the, you know, I don't, I don't get that's the thing is like I don't even know many legions specific stores. There's been blog posts today. There was one saying like the the Mewer Island saga from Kenny X-Men and X Factor. I didn't even I know nothing other than to say I really wouldn't count on it. Other than to say fucking Logan is back.

Seriously, I have the two jackments strapping them on one more time. Last two questions before we move on to the topic that the other two gentlemen in the room are very excited to talk about MVP of the season for each of you guys. You said Dan Stevens. I don't know if that's here. It's Stevens. It has to be DS.

Has to be The Beast? I mean, listen, I think he's great. For me, the person that when he arrived on screen, I cheered was Bill Irwin. Me too. Always. So good. And forever. So good.

Really, really enjoyed Jermaine Clement, but often found it like, just like his bits were always coming like at a point where I was like, I really need to know what's happening here. Yeah. You don't want to cut out right now. And his obtuseness. was almost a problematic. You know, finally, this is an audio medium, so this might be challenging, Jason, but you are a professional, you're a performer. This is what you do.

Absolutely. I'm just wondering if you could just give us a taste of the milk drinking and Tommy Gun firing that you would have brought to the role of autonomy had things broken your way. Oh, man. I would have. Actors make choices, you know. Oh, listen, I'm not, I'm only not going to engage in this only because I think that the actor who. Jeremy Harris. Jeremy Harris, who is playing potonomy, is phenomenal.

Yeah, he's very good. And anything I would have done would be irrelevant in the face of what he's doing, which is fantastic. It's very artfully said, very politely said. We don't accept that, but we will allow it. I have one question for you. Yeah. What is your favorite Noah Hawley moment? Oh, God, so many.

So many. Mostly just laughs, you know, just out on the back deck after a long day, drinking, like, drinking wine coolers and just reminiscing. Just a couple of Mike's hard lemonade with the boys. We would just crack a couple cans. Looking over at the Vancouver skyline and being like, that could be anywhere we want. Just getting into the hollyverse. And then the last day, I looked at him, you know, we both had our aviators on at the time.

Yeah. You know, and I was like, for all the story that we broke in. And you guys wore top gun jumpsuits, right? We didn't wear pants. What was your code name? For all the story that we broke here today, guys,

the only thing that will remain broken after today is my heart. And I rode off into the sunset. Nice. Yeah, it was just, it was just lots of laughs, you know? Let's take a quick break from our response. And then we'll come back and talk about a very, very important news development. Today's episode of The Watch is sponsored in part by Delta Airlines and their Delta Studio. You know, airline travel, what a miracle.

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straight from your phone. From your favorite music streaming services to your entire collection of downloads, including audiobooks and podcasts, Sonos lets you play it all. You can enjoy all the sounds you love anywhere in your home. Just go to sonos.com to learn more. That's s onos.com. Guys, this is in variety. True Detective is coming back to life.

The trade? The trade paper. The Hollywood trade? Hang out of your shingles, boys. This is in the Hollywood trade paper variety. Uh-huh. True Detective is coming back to life for a third season with a little help from HBO veteran David Miltch. This, I exclaimed out loud when I read this.

Nothing could make me happier. I wrote a direct message to Jack at Twitter, and I was like, retweet isn't hard enough. What are we doing to get me a more powerful way of liking this story? Before I let you guys just take over here, because you guys are just pawing at the dirt, like we're in a bullring. This is impossible.

This is scientifically impossible that this will happen. And here's why. So just a little backstory, True Detective Season 1, everyone except me loved it. True Detective Season 2. Oh, did you not love it? No, that's tattooed on my head. I'm fine.

Yeah. Season 2, love Colin Farrell. But generally people didn't love it. No, it was straight up bad. Yeah, you could say it. Yeah. Thus putting the tree. Detective project in Jeopardy.

Correct. Now, I had thought that, you know, Nick Pizzolato, who created the show. Oh, like a literary of under King, if you will. A young genius. The Dickens of Ohio. Truly. Truly. He had an overall deal with HBO.

The impression I got was that he would be quietly put onto other projects and maybe True Detective would go forward with other people. And he started working out of other stuff. He did a version. I don't know how much of it. I know what I can tell is definitely him from Matt. Magnificent Seven, but most of it is not. Oh, yeah.

He wrote a lot of, obviously, Peter Sarsgaard's speeches in that movie. Really? Yeah. Is there a lot of stuff about the secret occult history of the public transportation system? It's about economic populism. Yes. Love it. And Sarsgaard.

If you can imagine, really chews it up. Does he a little bit? If you can imagine a world in which Peter Sarsgaard really makes a meal out of those words, it's hard, hard to go to that place. He's a Raldos Chapmanning. Like, he's just like, I'm throwing 105 for one inning. And then I'm out. Fuck my shoulder forever.

I'm throwing. On the sports. So I never thought that would happen. And yet, okay, so maybe... How to put this into words. He's not someone who's going to take help. You know what I mean? He wasn't asking for help.

I can't imagine he would take any help. Then they brought in the Shakespeare of the Santa Ana race tracks. I think that you're overthinking this. And I think that you don't understand how Hollywood works really, man. Wow. So here's a little story. I've been in the writer's room with NH for too long. Here's another little story from the Hollywood Reporter from back in 2014.

That's the- The Hollywood Trade? Yeah, the Hollywood Trade called The Hollywood Reporter. Wow. Look at him with a transom wire here. He had a fundamental uncertainty about whether television as a medium could sustain work of the seriousness that he wanted to bring of it to it. Recalls Milch upon meeting Pizzolato to convince him to do True Detective Season 1. Stop.

Quote, I felt that it was important to reassure him that it could. Wow. He calls Pizzolato's work, one of the best writers I've encountered. So it's already a mutual appreciation society going on here. It's not a surprise. Now, I don't want to, we shouldn't tell, I would not feel comfortable talking about this had it not been very well publicized that David Milch has lost millions of dollars betting on horses. Oh, yeah. Including the ones that he bet on that then drop dead on the set of life.

He has had to sell his mansion in California. He had to sell an estate in Martha's VIII. vineyard. Damn. He lives in a modest home where he works on his, on his adaption of Peter Matheson's Shadow Country, which will probably never come out. He had an amazing pilot about a like a Murdoch, a Rupert Murdoch-esque family called Money. That never got me, but Adam McKay is making a very similar show to.

Can you run down the IMDB for people who don't know who David Milch is? Yeah, David Milch. Do you want to do it? Do you want to take the... David Milch writes a spec episode of Hill Street Blues. Yeah. That gets into the hands of the people at Hill Street Blues and they have. hire him to write on the show and they say we're actually going to shoot this episode,

that episode wins an Emmy. I think that's right. So he's one for one. So he is like fully formed, creates NYPD Blue. Then, uh, and this is back in a time when there's like nine shows. Oh, and NYPD Blue is transformative on television is enormous. Then creates like top five shows of all time for me, Deadwood. Yes.

like truly just top to bottom, flawless, except for the bottom, which is flawed, because it does not end correctly. So, asterisk on that. But then in a real surprise to turnabout, he makes John from Cincinnati, which is fundamentally flawed. Have you revisited that recently?

I have not. Okay. It's a tough hang. It is, do you know that Miltch only wanted Ed O'Neill to play Al Swerinjin in Deadwood? Really? And HBO would not hire Ed O'Neill. Why not?

Don't know. Wasn't he in like The Rock at that time? Like, wasn't that like a good look for them? I don't, they were not psyched for Ed O'Neill. And they hired Ian McShane, who I think turns in a legendary performance, a performance which apparently Milch hated. Get the fuck out of here. This is what, this could very well be apocryphal, but this is what I've heard that Milch had it so much in his mind that it was Ed O'Neill that he could never. To be clear, you're talking about Al Bundy.

Al Bundy. Yeah. Correct. Yes, I'm talking about... Put it in layman's terms. I'm talking about from John from Cincinnati. Oh, not Ed Harris. That's why I thought we were talking about for a second.

That's why I was like, fully out of my bad, yeah. And I was like, maybe he is in the Rock. I was doing that too. I was like, oh, I'll get Christopher for the Town. Maybe he cuts Sean Connery to here. You can see Ed O'Neill in the Rock. Is that a prison? Is that a prison we're going to?

That's my Ed O'Neill. You saved a good Ed O'Neill. Especially without any prep. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But apparently you could never get on board for McShane's a swear engine, which I find fascinating. Do you remember, you know what, I'm going to

not put it in the form of a question because I already know you do remember this, but there was a New Yorker profile of Milch during the time of Deadwood that visits him in his trailer. Have you seen, yes. Have you seen the special features of Deadwood? It has a documentary where this is featured. No. What you're about to tell us.

Go ahead. Correct. Is he lying supine? He lies on his side because his back is bad. Right. and he dictates there are writers who don't do anything and then there is

I'm assuming a writer's assistant there's a huge screen In the most recent feature I read on Milch from 2016 in the Buffalo News a muscular man named Scott types his scripts for him Yeah so this is somebody else is typing

and he dictates the script so he'll be sitting there and he'll be like Sweringin fuck you you motherfucker No take it back Swearinin you motherfucker

Fuck you. You know, like, he's just dictating and going back and fix it. And just like, it's so interesting to watch what I think is one of, like, the top five TV writers of all time work in a way that is radically atypical to how it's done. Yeah. And Greenwald, you've interviewed your fair share of TV writers. You've now become one. Yeah. You have to admit that they are not always the most dynamic personalities.

It's not just that. That's true. It's, okay, two points to be made. you're exactly right about. One is, yes, because the modern job of being a showrunner is very different than being a wordsmith or a writer. You have to be a manager. You have to work with talent.

You have to work with people. You have to do so many different things. And now you have to give interviews. You have to be the public face of the show as much as the actors. So that is definitely part of it that is different than Milton's day. And this guy is like a character out of a Steely Dan song. But he's also the facts. He is.

For, look, writing on TV is. I would take a Steely Dan concept album about David Milch. any day of the week. Dictated by David. Yale Law School with George Bush, drug addict, compulsive gambler like created

Bipi Blue. It's just insane. But to be clear, as great as the writing on TV is on many of these pantheon shows, very few of them, I think, are lauded for the precision of their words. You know what I mean?

The storytelling, certain lines, certain bits of dialogue, but they're generally, they're crafted, they're sanded, they're rewritten. They are rarely, so completely the voice of one person.

We would compare, I'm sure people like Richard Price who writes for the screen as well when he's writing his novels, does the games out the rhythm of the swears? But on TV, no. I would say

also top five show, The Wire, I would not say is the voice of David Simon. It is not the voice of those guys. It is Richard Price. It is George Pelicanos.

It is all those writers that contribute to what makes that show magnificent, you know. Miltch is like Sorkin, I think. Probably the only other one who you're like, only one person with this. Yeah, it's inimitable, yeah. Amy Sherman Pallino.

Yeah. I mean, for me, that is, like those people in the last 20 years are the true original voices of television. You know, milch, and you know what? I'll put Matt Weiner in there. But even that, I wouldn't, if you put a page of Matt Winer dialogue, you know what, you're right.

I wouldn't necessarily be like, that's completely different than Vince Gilligan. But I would say that Winer is unique in the way he, like, built a season. And the dream of the end of things. But that dialogue-specific, Milch, Sorkin, Amy Sherman Palligan. And Pizzolado.

Well, here we go. And Pizzolato. So since Deadwood and Deadwood had sort of a disappointing ending, and there was always talk about either a season three or a movie to wrap things up. And apparently it had gotten pretty close. And then they took down the sets in, I think, in British Columbia. So they took down the sets.

No, it was just north of here. Oh, is it really? Deadwood. We're talking Deadwood, right? Yeah. Deadwood was the largest ever set built. standing set. Because they built the entire town of Deadwood. And that was like the kind of thing was like they took the town down and that was when there was

like real like well I guess they're not really not going to do it. I mean by all accounts this script exists like in his movie. And this Buffalo News feature they're like the Deadwood movie script is in on his shelf. Yeah. So since then he's made John from Cincinnati obviously a flawed show one season or only one season. Right. Then later he did luck in 2012 which Andy and I had a hell of a good time talking about, but not very many people watched and many horses died for. Yeah. And there was a great cop, period cop show pilot that was an HBO that never went.

Right. That I read and was the precinct. What was it called the 17th or something like that or the 74th? It was like a great pilot. Yeah. And he wrote money, which is this Murdoch thing I was talking about. Which McShane was going to be in. Right.

Right. And then he has been working on an adaption of this amazing Peter Matheson novel called Shadow Country, which is about 1900s, Florida. to settlers. I think the thing to think about here is it's very hard to imagine two rampaging alphas collaborating in this way. So let me tell you why I think this is going to be a good thing. Okay.

Okay. So since Deadwood, I feel like he actually has followed a trajectory that kind of mirrors the person he collaborated on luck with, Michael Mann, which is after, say, he, man just increasingly gets more and more like diffuse. It's like the idea of the movie that you think you want to watch is right there. And for me, as a crazy Michael Mann fanatic, I don't care if it's black hat or not. Like, I'll watch it just purely for the visuals, if nothing else.

But. And I love Michael Mann, but I could not abide that movie. But this is what's been happening in Milch, too. He's been kind of like going farther and farther and farther off menu to the point where it's like luck is kind of about horse racing, but it's also about God, but it's also about like, I don't know what, fathers. To have something where it's like, okay, I'm a gun for hire. I'm coming in to fix this piece of intellectual property, this other guy who would not even have really made this show had it not been for me in the first place.

Not only just because I helped him encouragement-wise, but because I kind of opened up the world for this kind of television writing anyway. And now all I have to do is basically give him a place, a time, and a couple of characters, and he and I can collaborate or not or whatever. But, you know, I think that it's in some ways a very logical thing to have happen. Wow, this is optimism of the sort you rarely see in this town except in the trade papers. I want that. You know, my hope that what comes out of this is either an amazing show that Chris, you just outlined, or an unbelievable documentary about how this thing went south. About two guys sitting in a bar in Ohio talking about like Nietzsche.

Yeah. Because I feel like there is a cynical version of how this may have gone down. And I have no inside knowledge about this. But I think it's either what you described, which would be amazing. and you suggested maybe there was some mutual admiration, and that would have to be the first step for these two guys to actually respect each other at some level for this even possibly to work. But there's also a version of it where there's a new president at HBO,

Casey Blois, comes in and he looks at what's on the ledger, and they see that Milch still has his overall deal and what's he working on? So they call him in, or they meet him at the racetrack, and they're like, look, David, we want to get you to work. We want to use your talent for something, and we still owe you X amount of money on the deal, so you have your choice. You can go to work on either a true detective.

Divorce. Divorce Season 2. Or... Let me tell you something. We're getting fucking divorced. Or after the throne, season 2. Oh, yeah. There you go.

As I think I can disclose in this podcast, we met with him. Oh, of course. The problem was Chris also was lying down. Yeah. And he found that disrespectful. And he chose... I was dictating to him. Weirdly, that was his first mistake.

So he chose this. And it just strikes me as a sort of thing that, like, maybe it's an attempt to light fires under both of them to make it public. I don't know. I think that... But I would not be... surprised if nothing came of this. So I think that you could read about this,

but this is something very it's a valuable property for HBO no matter what. 12 million people watched like the last time. True detective. Yeah. So it makes sense that if they're like, do you want to do a crime show and you want to do a crime show? We have this crime show, quote unquote, that can be anything.

Why don't you guys do it together? I just wish that it was a thing where they just gave it to him. Jason. I wish they just gave it to milk. Your year. I love that. I love that. Like, conceptually, I love it. I love the idea of every year it's a crime story that told by a different unique voice and a different unique visual stylist. Leemey sure in Paladino season would be fire. Oh, I would watch that for one million years.

Did you watch Mrs. Meisel? Of course I did. The second it came out? The minute it came out I watched. I read it the minute it was released. What do you think? I fucking loved it. It's wonderful.

I loved it. But I'm like, again, I watched every episode of Bunheads. I watched every episode of Gilmore Girls. multiple times. How many times did you like the new ones? Just once. I only watched the new ones once. But like I'm like all in on Gilmore Girls.

And and so this was... Did you audition for that as well? I know, but I did. I was in one of the, one of the only other things that I have been like to my agents when it was announced, like I will do anything like this. Was the Gilmore Girls revival and they let me do like a 30 second bid. See, I didn't know that because I have not watched that.

I understand. But it was... Too much samurai. I was so excited. Wow. And I'm just like part of... I'm one side of a telephone call. You know what I mean?

Like, I could not be less showy or flashy. But I was like, yes, anything you want me to do, I will do it one million percent. And you feel this way about David Milch. Like he is your... Oh. I feel like we didn't even get to the fact that you are one of the nation's leading milkologists. I love David Milch. Like NYPD Blue hit me at the right time.

And because NYPD Blue was the first... first kind of tip into what is now television. It's true. And it ultimately was, it kind of opened the door a crack and then the door got closed again for like 10 years. Yeah. Right. Like it's really like, Milch opens the door and people like don't know what to do with it.

Yeah, like homicide gets made. Is homicide pretty much concurrent with NYPD Blue or after? It's a little bit after. It starts a little bit after, but they exist at the same time. Yes. Another phenomenal. Yeah. Phenomenal show.

But then, like, that style, like, that edginess on network television goes away. And it's a couple of years until it starts up on, you know, with like sopranos and six feet under and stuff like that. Yeah. You know, and so he's really the person that was making something exciting when I was at an age that exciting things were like, ooh, wait, this is cool what's happening. Yeah, and it's funny because it seems almost hard now to not get your TV show made. There are just simply so many shows, so many things out there. And TV has become the place where people in other fields have now, I mean, like Amazon going out and paying Woody Allen to make a TV show. Woody Allen, who said, like, I don't care about TV shows.

I'll just chop up an old script. It seems patently unfair that a master of the form, one of the few, as we're saying, masters of the form can't get a show on the air when literally everyone else seems to be able to. But he also operates on such an enormous level. You know what I mean? Like, he's not making, like, small, like, one of the reasons that everybody gets to. make TV knows because everybody's making TV at a price right you know and he's like build me a town yes David Milch just does not make things at a price like we gotta kill these horses like yeah yeah special effects no I mean it's like it's like it's all practical

and it's all enormous you're point exactly like you imagine horses have to die his pass on Battle of the Bastards episode like it would be amazing redlining everything is like oh no there literally would not be a CIA building if you directed homeland she's got to take it out I have a question for you how do you feel about probably my the most important piece of milch ephemero which is his episode of dinner for five oh I don't know that I've seen it holy shit the Favre show yeah oh I don't think I've seen it's him Oliphant oh wow J Moore Michael Rappaport and and and Favreau okay and and Milt's just telling stories about being in a frat with George Bush or a

Don Simpson calling him up to do rewrites on bad boys too and he lost all his money on a horse so he had to do it And he was, like, stuck in Florida. And he's like, oh, his dad of Florida? I was like, I was on a bender in Florida. And Don Simpson calls me up and goes, you motherfucker, this script is the worst fucking thing. And he's like, because he hasn't leveled out from his dependencies.

And it's like, RIP Don Simpson. That's the shit that's like, he's like, maybe that's the other reason that I love milk is like, I do love monsters. Yeah. And there are so few monsters left. He's the bridge to like the Robert Evans era of like, I'm going to put you in a fucking freezer locker until you come out of here with towering inferno.

If you just listen to Milch talk about David Caruso leaving NYPD Blue after season one, it's like next level. Yeah. He's like, you fuck, you fucked me. He's just like old, like I feel like he's. And then he'll be like at the end of the like, but of course our daughters are quite close. He does that Trump thing where he's like, you're a piece of human trash, but I love you and I see you on the golf course on Sunday. That's like, what's the Norman Mailer movie with Rip Torn? Oh.

I love everything you're saying. I wish I could finish that thought. Maidenhead? Oh, fuck, what's it called? Norman Mailer makes a movie. I don't even think it ever gets released. It's chaos. It's chaos.

And in the movie, Rip Torn is like on all the drugs and all their families are around. And he's, the Mailer, I believe, is the, I've never seen the movie, but there's this clip. Yeah. Where Rip Torn attacks Norman Mailer with an actual hammer. I've heard about this. And it's all on film. The children are all around or are crying and weep it.

And then it cuts to footage of Mailer who's been hit in the head with a hammer. And he's like, this fuck, this fuck tried to kill me. And then he goes to the effect of, but I got to give it to him. It's exactly what the character would have done. Okay, but those monsters.

Let's bring it back. 70s monsters. Let's turn the camera back around to you though, Jason. You're here with us. You're a fan of old Hollywood. Sure. You're a fan of monsters. I listen to the You Must Remember this podcast.

You love stories. You love glamour. You've worked on many projects. I have many, many projects. This is up to you, the level of honesty that you would like to bring to the microphone today. But you probably have worked on things that were suboptimal. Sure. I don't know if any of them were like Heaven's Gate biblically bad, but you have worked on things.

I have. Is it fun to be in the Maelstrom or is it only fun to be telling the anecdotes later? It really depends. It really depends on. Okay. I've got such good stories that I don't want it, that I cannot tell. The politics meter in his eyes are moving. It really, okay, this is what I'll say.

For a prolonged period, it is immobilizing and infuriating. You know, when you're on something that is off the rails, it really is like you feel, and you're in it until the end, I mean, you are, it seems hopeless. What's the tell? Is it always like crap services, the shaky hands? You can't tell right. You can't tell right. Sometimes you can tell it right away.

And then sometimes it's not until you're in it for a while. And you're like, what? My call time is 6 a.m. It's 6 p.m. And we have not shot yet. What's going on? You know? Or stuff like that.

But I had something happen just recently where we had like one day of chaos on a job, one day of true chaos. And it was so. And then it's what you're describing of it's all stories. Right. It's all stories because it was only the day. And the day lasted like 15 hours, but it was just one day. And so for the rest of time, I've got great stories that are amazing, but they did not impede or impact my life to any great.

Because I guess there are gradations of it because when you're at the whims of the fury of an ego monster, that's not good in the moment or really not good ever. But you hear stories that can be quite endearing. Like for some reason I jump to like Wet Hot American Summer, the movie. the people who went to film that movie, many of whom are now quite famous, went to a summer camp, and it rained every day.

Sure. And they just got drunk, and they were stuck in the rain and stuck in the mud. And then that's like, oh, that's like, let's put on a show. There's something endearing about show business

when you hear those stories. Well, that's everybody going through a shared experience, yes, a shared experience and that only bonds them together. Right. The problem can be when, it can also bond people together

when they share a common problem or enemy or whatever it is on a set as well. And that can also be, bring everybody together and and build relationships. There's so many ways that things can be wrong. From that, from that, from the kind of like, oh my God, like the circumstances or the elements are making this trying and difficult to the people involved are making this trying and difficult

to, oh, we're all doing our best, but this might just not be up to it, you know, or whatever. Last time you were here, we talked a little bit about when you've been able to basically dive-bom into projects or show up on things and- and do the stuff that you do and bring the comedy that you bring, and it sounds like it's a lot of fun. People understand what you're great at. You come on, you have a good time. Do you always, though, try to come to a project

with a baseline of expectation, which is to say, I'm just going to work today? Or has your good experience showing up on Brooklyn 9-9 or the league, whatever, colored your experiences to the point where you're like, if it's not fun and play, I'm out on this? Well, I'm lucky in the same. sense that a lot of the stuff that I get to do is projects that are either, I've gotten to the point that where a lot of stuff I do is because my friends are making it.

Yeah. Or my peers are making it or whatever. So that I get to come into things that are oftentimes formed already. You know, like I don't show up until season two of the league. You know, like I don't come into Brooklyn 9-9 until season three or four maybe even. And so for me, A, it's a known quantity. And B, there's shows that I'm already familiar with and my friends are on and I like and I... And it's a humming machine at that point.

Of course. And so that, those are no-brainers. There are other things that I'll do that are like, oh, I'll try that, you know, because of... Usually I'll try that happens because of there are players involved that I'm curious about, you know, or, or, you know, whatever. You know, like, I did not know what, like, what Lady Dynamite was going to be. but like I love Maria, I love Mitch, I love Pam. Like, yeah, of course I'll do an episode of that, you know, and the show is hilarious and fantastic, you know.

So, but it was, it hadn't aired yet, so I didn't know. I wasn't going into something I knew, but I knew all those people. And so at that point, I'm like, oh, I'll take a leap of faith on all you guys because you're geniuses. But have you ever taken a job just for the potential stories? Have you ever done a Roland Emmerk movie? That's basically what I'm asking. I did punch up once. It's a day of like writers room writing.

I've done, I've taken a lot more writing jobs that are that, because they're short. Like I did a day of comedy punch up for Transformers three or four. I can't remember which one. Terrific. That was bananas, you know. Because Michael Bay ran the room. My only question to my agents when they said that was like, is Michael Bay going to be there? They were like, he's running the room.

And I was like, I will 100% be there. Noted comedian Michael Bay. Yeah. And it was awesome. If you've seen the making of 13 hours, you know. He loves to laugh. That guy's a parallel of that. Just tell us.

It was awesome. It was fascinating. Was he like, let's fucking get in it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, he wanted to dig in. And ostensibly, and I can't remember which movie it is now, three or four. We were there to write jokes for the scenes that included T.J. Miller's character

because he was the comedic element in that one. And so that was what we were doing. And it was super fun. But it was wild because it was on a process level, unlike any. Usually if I go to a room like that, it's a bunch of comedians and we're just pitching jokes on whatever. We have a movie we're pitching jokes on. But there were animatics for the whole movie. So he's like, okay, so this scene takes place in a bakery in China.

Alex, Alex, show him the thing. Show him the thing. And then they would play us in animatic. And we would be like, oh, okay. Got it. Got, got. And then we would kind of pitch jokes, you know, for them to say in a bakery in China or whatever it was. And it was fascinating.

It was like really interesting to come at comedy from a place of a robot being in a Chinese paper. Yes, from a completely different. It was really, I thoroughly enjoyed it and would do it again in a heartbeat, you know. I don't think that we could top Transformers Chinese bakery. Did you have anything you want to ask? No, just to say that Michael Bay does listen to this podcast. Yeah, I know. So I think that there's a good chance you'll be back.

I hope so. I had such a good day. Can we ask you to, would you like to plug anything? People say that, right? Oh, sure. I mean, I'm one of the hosts of a podcast called How Did This Get Made on the Earwolf Network? Terrific podcast, Sweety Cans on that show. Yeah, yeah.

Sweety Cany Cans. Yeah, you can listen to that, you know, and then watch, you know. You're around. I'll pop up on. Watch prestige television. You're bound to pop up eventually. I'll pop up on Brooklyn 9-9 or other things. So, yeah.

True Detective Season 3? Are you calling your agent and just being like whatever they need? Yeah. Oh, if Milch is involved, absolutely. Like a child pimp. I will show up. If milk is a child woman is a pimp or someone pimping children. Either one.

Because this man could do both. Oh, I'll do it. Look at the range. I'll do it. I'll do both parts. You know with Gregor's season three Farno style. Yes. Yes.

All right, Jay Zemanzer, thank you so much for joining us. We are so happy to join us. Thank you. Great job to all the Baranskis. Thanks again to Delta Studio for sponsoring today's show. Delta Studio offers access to over 1,000 hours of every type of entertainment for every passenger 100% for free. You could choose from up to 300 movies, HBO, Showtime,

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