The Watch - Jerrod Carmichael’s Breakout Weekend, ‘Atlanta,’ ‘Moon Knight,’ and ‘Winning Time’ With Charles Holmes

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

Chris is joined by 'Ringer-verse' cohost Charles Holmes to talk about Jerrod Carmichael’s hosting stint on 'Saturday Night Live' and his new special, ‘Rothaniel’ (2:11). Then they talk about the third episode of ‘Atlanta’ (28:04), ‘Moon Knight’ (41:56), and ‘Winning Time’ (49:56). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Charles Holmes Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Nora Princeati. And I'm Nathan Hubbard. And we're back with another season of every single album. This time, we're talking about one of the best-selling boy bands of all time, One Direction. There's stories a fascinating look at both the commercial and human sides of being a young artist. We'll be breaking down every single One Direction album and then exploring the careers of Harry Styles, Nile Horan, and the rest of the band after their 2015 split, leading up to the release of Harry's new album on May 20th.

And we've got some fun new categories, Nora. Including the most swoon-inducing lyrics. And the suckiest ones. The peak moments for each band member and who won the album. We even got a brand new game. So, calling all directioners, Harris, and more, join us on the every single album feed starting April 11th, every Monday and Thursday.

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This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the interstate, section of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan and I am an editor at the ringer.com and I am all alone today. Andy is on vacation. I'm not all alone. Charles Holmes from the Midnight Boys on the Ring of Verse feed and the ringer music show was nice enough to join me today. And we had a really cool conversation about a bunch of

different things, mostly centering around Gerard Carmichael, who had an amazing weekend with his special being released for Thaniel on HBO. And he also hosted Saturday Night Live. Charles and I also talked about winning time. We talked about Atlanta and we talked about Moon Night and we talked about the MCU and we talked about Prestige TV. It was a really cool conversation. to tell a bunch of different topics. For later in this week, I'll just give you guys a heads up. There will be Tokyo Vice content later this week. And I also want to get back into Severance.

So I will probably have some conversations about that. Severance is winding up its first season. And it's just been an extraordinary show this season. So I can't wait to chat more about that. But without further ado, let's get into my chat with Charles. And I'll be back with you guys on Thursday. Charles, thanks so much for joining me, man. I really wanted to do this for a while.

I've been loving Midnight Boys so much and especially, I don't know if people have been listening, but I wanted to just dive into this right away. Screener Gap, because I thought this was like the funniest thing that's ever happened. So Charles and Van obviously do these instant reaction podcasts to the latest Marvel and Star Wars stuff, to genre stuff that's on Disney Plus and other channels.

But the premise is essentially like, we just came fresh out of the experience and we're supposed to give our instant reaction. actions. And Charles let slip recently that he had actually imbibed him more than one moon night, thus thrusting him into the future and ruining the entire premise of the Midnight Boys, questioning his integrity as a podcaster, as someone who gets material from Bob Chapec. You know, like all these things now are in question. So Charles, it's been a tough week. It's been a tough week for me. Have you resigned from the academy yet?

I'm almost there. What I've been telling people it's like is, hey, if, uh, Big old Disney slides into them IGDMs with a nice big booty. I'm going to take a look, okay? I got caught. I apologize to my wife and my family. I will be better next time. It's a season of healing. How dare you watch four episodes?

I'm like, all right, guys. All right. I'm a man of temptation, okay? I could be tempted. I was wondering whether or not because, like, you know, I often struggle with this when I'm talking about shows. It's like I'm trying my best to watch things week by week because I do think for something like Severance, for instance,

it kind of like, if you were watching something like that, that is so twisty and so kind of dependent, like the experience of the show is rooted in like the breadcrumb trail that you follow to find out what's happening when to these people. Like if you're watching it three episodes ahead, or if you've watched the entire season, but you're pretending kind of like, well, we'll see what happens in episode four. Like I've always had a really hard time like pretending to be that person. You know, like, I don't know. Let's see what happens to Kendall Roy next week on Succession, you know? you see I used to be that way early in the midnight boys I'm like partly out of laziness I'm like I'm not watching all these screeners but there was this air where all the other critics

I was reading New York Times Rolling Stone Hollywood Reporter everybody had watched all four and I'm just like all right I have to watch all four they say something big is going to happen I need to watch all four and then I was just like oh I did not need to watch all four And also what I did not realize is I'm still a newborn podcasting baby. And I was reading a tweet where somebody's like, your opinion is a spoiler, Charles. And if you had ever told me when I was just like writing criticism that my opinion would count as spoiler material, I would have been like I've made it such a wrong mistake in life. Where did I turn wrong?

So yeah, they got me out of the academy. Me and Will Smith are going to have some mimosas later. and lick our wounds. Netflix has just pulled my movie. It's been a rough week. That would be amazing, though, if, like, Marvel and D.C. were basically, like,

competing wrestling federations, and you could, like, leave Marvel for D.C. if you got, like, excommunicated from Marvel for spoilers or for negative opinions. And you were like, well, I'm happy to announce that I'm joining the DC universe. I'm going into the speed zone.

And fuck everybody! Oh, hey, guys, my soul's not worth that much. Hey, D.C., if you want to cut that check off there, we could talk about it. I wanted to talk to you about a couple of different things today. I mentioned in the top of the show, but I wanted to talk to you about winning time. I want to talk to you a little bit about Atlanta, season three, we can get into the third episode. But the person who I was most interested in this weekend and the stuff that I was most interested in this weekend was kind of surprised to me because it was not what I thought on Thursday, what I would be thinking about on Sunday night and Monday morning. And that's Drock Carmichael, who is a stand-of-com.

if people don't know, he also hosted Saturday Night Live and made fun of the fact that he might be the least famous person to ever host Saturday Night Live, but he hosted SNL, and he released a stand-up special called Ruthaniel on HBO over the weekend that people could watch. And it's been grabbing some headlines for some very, you know, revealing material that Carmichael does about himself, especially that he comes out as gay, but in the stand-up special. And he's, talks about it extensively during his monologue on S&L. But it was one of those things where like it's rare, but someone gets the, I did a thing and then I did a promotional thing for that thing. And then that actually works. Like I actually am just thinking about Gerard Car Michael and went back and rewatch some old episodes of his sitcom and went back and watched eight a little bit. Tell me a little bit about your relationship to his comedy, but how you also felt about

like, we could just generally talk about. him, but like how you felt about, about, uh, Ruthaniel. So I, I, before the special, I was never a big Gerard Carmichael fan. I think I watched an episode or two or the Carmichael show. Um, and it didn't grab me. I didn't think it was, it was bad, but it just didn't grab me. So I had known about him on the periphery of my career. Um, he had a friendship with Tyler the creator. And I think back when Flower Boy, which was an album where Tyler starts dealing with sexual force, he was. He had a friendship. Whittity and all of that. Gerard Carmichael has this interview with him.

So he had always kind of been in the ether, but I had never sat down with him. And then I just had a chaotic Friday night. The misses was gone. I was few bruskees in. And then I was just like, I'm going to watch the raid tonight. And then, like, a third through the raid,

I'm like, this is the best thing ever. I just checked Twitter. And like, everybody's talking about Ruthaniel. And I'm like, I'm going to take a quick breather and just watch Ruthaniel. And I turn it on. And I'm like, oh, my, this is not. First of all, had you seen the raid before?

I've never seen the raid before. Okay, so you're midway through these dudes just throwing dudes through walls, right? And jumping through floors. It's a religious experience, but I'm like, it's almost too much. Like, I just like, it's so stimulating. I can't imagine a harder you turn in all of popular culture. This, we need to actually, if people want to, like, hit me up on Twitter, I actually will, like, look at these.

like, what is the hardest U-turn you could make? You know, like, I watch this and then just to cleanse my spirit, I watch that. Because the raid and Ruthaniel might be like the most diametrically opposed things. But you actually did it as like half-time for the raid. You stopped in the middle of the raid and were like, let me watch this man reveal his soul on stage. It was a beautiful experience. I had a perfect Friday night. I was just like, I would not tell anybody to replicate it because it's a while viewing

experience. But I went from watching the raid and being like, this is one of the most perfect, beautiful movies I've ever seen. It's just way too intense. To Ruthaniel being like, this is one of the most beautiful raw things I've ever seen. I'd need to go.

Did you go back to the raid and finish it after Ruthaniel? Oh, I finished the next day. I was just like, I kid. I was like, woo. I was just like, this is enough emotion. But Rathaniel was super interesting to me because I had known about Gerard as a as a comedian. But when he came out as gay, I was just like, oh, let me just, everybody's just talking about this. And it was funny, that part of the, of the special wasn't what hit me.

It was actually the structure of the stand-up special that hit me and the direction of it. because I was just like, this is a transcendent piece of work. From the moment he starts to stops, the way the story unfolds takes you on this emotional journey of his family. And I was like, this is brilliant. This is something that only he could do at this moment of his career and his height of fame. Because what you were talking about on S&L is like, he's right. He's, Trad Carr and Michael is not that famous.

Right. on the periphery. He has millions, but he's not a household name. I would imagine that most people, if you were like, who is this dude? They would be like,

maybe I'm overrating the popularity of neighbors, but they would probably be like, that guy was in neighbors. You know what I mean? Yes. He is not like a household face or name. He doesn't do a ton of press.

In fact, one of the things I was going to mention to you is I was curious if you had ever seen his interview with Charlemagne on Breakfast Club from like 2019. No. It's really wild because it is honestly like this sketchbook version of Ruthaniel. It is it is the two of them and what they talk about, a lot of it winds up being in the special or is in the special. Now that just might be what he's interested in what he likes

to talk about. But on on Breakfast Club, he actually says like, I'm not like interested in participating in like the promotional, like the interview, the media side. of like this job. Like, I want to be more like a musician who puts out an album and then disappears. And I thought that was an interesting way of looking at it. Obviously, like, you know, he's had a kind of like touched career

where it's like he gets to, he seemingly gets to do the most, not avant-garde, but like progressive, formally inventive version of whatever he's doing. And like, but you never see him just like grinding it out at like, just for laughs.

festival or something. Maybe he does. But he isn't like, I'm doing this walk-on part of like a Judd Apatow movie and then I'm out. You know what I mean? Like he's in mid-90s. He did a Carmichael show. He's made a couple of things with Bo Burtum and without like documentaries and stuff like that. He isn't an artist, you know? He and it's funny. We're going to talk about Atlanta later, but it's a different pivot point from someone like Donald Glover, where Donald Glover is this comedian. He writes for 30, Rock, you see his face on community. He leaves comedy behind to go do these other to go do these other things where it's like Carmichael, it seems like he's kind of been toiling away at his craft, but not

doing any of the bullshit. So when you get Nathaniel, I was, it is such a masterful performance because emotionally when I'm sitting there, I'm starting to feel the way that Gerard feels about his family.

where he starts off the special talking about draw it is his middle name. That's not his real name. So there's this mystery going on where you're just like, what's his, like as an audience, we know it's for Daniel,

but still while you're watching it, I'm like, I want him to say it. I want him to say the name. Yeah. And throughout that, he starts this story about how from his grandparents,

his grandfather's being out there, having a lot of kids, both illegitimate and not. It's a family tree. He tells you this story. story. And he talks about his family in such a loving way where you're just like, oh, I love his family. His family, these are a bunch of cooks. It's crazy. And then you get to this moment where he starts peeling back how each family member hurt him after he came out. And it does this thing where

you're like, oh, I get what he's doing. He is making us fall in love with his family as an audience to show you how heartbreaking it is when somebody close to you doesn't accept you. And it goes far beyond just sexuality, race, or anything like that. It's like this very human thing. And I don't even know if I could call it hilariously funny. It's just raw and real.

Even I would go as far to say that when he does jokes in this special, it's kind of weird. I don't want to like give away a ton so that people, I want people to go experience it. but there's, the first joke he tells is about the name. And he goes up on stage and he basically reveals that Giraud is not his first name. And he starts to tease out what his first name is. And it's like a combination of his two grandfather's names.

And like, you're like, okay. And like the way it's being shot, so Bo Burtum shot it. And it kind of basically reminds me of like the Bob Fawsey movie about Lenny Bruce that he made. But you know what I mean? Like it's so intimate. it's so intense. The framing is so beautiful. The lighting is beautiful. Car michael's wearing this red silk shirt that's very reminiscent of an outfit that Richard Pryor wore and one of his specials. Yeah. It's gorgeous. He's just seated. It's a shot at the blue note, the famous jazz club in the

village. And the first joke is Carmichael just is like, yeah, it's the combination of like two of my grandfather's names. He's like, you know, like Toyotathon. And it's like a word that shouldn't be. And you're like, ha ha, okay. But you know in your head that like this is not why you're here's for like the set up joke execution. And I think I did see some people kind of talking about whether or not this was, this is funny or if this is comedy or stand up comedy per se. And I don't really get too caught up in those designations, but I was wondering whether or not like did you think of it more as like a piece of like personal storytelling or as like a piece of comedy? I think. thought of it as both because he carmack car michael is at a place in his career where he can do

something like this if another stand-up comic that you know nothing about tried to do this it would utterly fail he is trading in the fact that he is famous enough for me to know who he is but not famous enough for me to care and through this entire that sounds hard no but i think that's how he wants it right like i think he wants you like enough to be to check it out but not to be like, oh yeah, I've seen him do this bit before, you know, or like, I know this story. Yeah. Exactly. And I think it is funny enough where I wanted it to be a little bit more experimental because what he's doing, the actual funny part of it is that like the people talking to him, the audience, the hecklers, become a part of the show. It's almost like a therapy session where he says

this joke about some of his girlfriends finding out he was gay. And they, being, them being some of the most supportive, his black girl friends, but them weirdly being racist about it when it's a white boyfriend. And there's this, there's this woman who just does this long extended, wow. And he just rips, like, he goes. And I'm just like, oh, this is like, it's almost like a jazz performance. Yeah, he's doing crowdwork. Yeah. Yeah. And the crowd work is, is done in such a way where you're like, oh, this is, this is a special crowd at a special moment. and it feels electric even in my living room. So that part to me, I was just like, no, that is worth it.

Like, that is the funny part of the entire thing. I was just kind of blown away by the whole venture. The lady in the crowd who, there's one woman who asks Carmichael at some point, if he's carrying around his father's guilt, I was just like, who would ever go to a stand-up special and have the, to Marity to ask somebody that. But I guess it's the kind of intimacy that Carmichael kind of created

in that moment where it's just like he's talking about all this stuff. He's asking people for feedback. He wants, you know, he's, and he's very open when they're like applauding him for coming out and he's just like, I'm trying to accept this love, you know. It's like, but at the same time, like, you don't have to applaud me. It's, it's

really like just an extraordinary piece of work and then it kind of comes full circle towards the end. You know, this kind of confessional thing where the project is the person is not new. I mean, some people might kind of I could see the argument made where you're like, this is kind of like the personal essay version of comedy.

You know, where you make, you're really there explicitly to unpack your own shit and not, and entertaining the audience or making them laugh is like a secondary concern. And I think as long as you kind of know that going into it, you will find yourself like me and Charles, I've kind of alluded to, just being kind of overwhelmed with the vulnerability and intimacy of it. I wanted to ask you a little bit about what you thought of his,

specifically the mechanics of his performance. Because, you know, when we say something where we're like, oh, it's really personal, it's really confessional, or, you know, it's so vulnerable and intimate, that kind of doesn't speak to the level of craftsmanship that's there. Because I do think that there is like an astonishing level of craftsmanship in terms of like his gestures, the way he holds his body,

and then also the way that Burnham shot it. Yeah, it's like hearing a symphony because you see, you see this red, and it's close up on his face and on his body. And his body's not confident. He's doing this thing where it's almost like he's uncomfortable when people are clapping for him coming out as gay. He's like uncomfortable, but then he's defiant.

He'll say something like, I see a lot of y'all wearing fittets in here. I know y'all ain't happy. Yeah, I see a lot of Yankee head fittings. And it's just like he's going between this like spitefulness of just like I fucking hate that you guys have cheered because I came out. But also like I'm about to cut open my like heart for you and put it on display. And then I think just story wise, what I loved about it is you know where this whole thing

is going from the beginning. You know he is about to reveal his name. and even somebody in the crowd is just like, when are you going to reveal the name? You still have to tell us your name. Yeah. And what he does is like, he goes,

I almost think like, he goes down the list of his family in order of the people who mean most to him. So it starts off with his grandparents. You know, he goes into like his girlfriends, how they dealt with him coming out. He goes into his other friends

that it's, I think it's his dad. dad and you start going and then he's like oh my brother my brother's the person who named me um gerard he goes to his mother and he's like unspooling some of the most intricate stories of like how much you can love a person and how much they can just hurt you so deeply and when he gets to his mom there's this feeling like he's on the brink of breaking down like his eyes are watering and there's no longer any jokes. There's just silence for long stretches.

And that's masterful to me. Yeah, and it's in a weird way that audience, and I don't know whether he did, because usually with concert shows, they'll do a couple of sets, like they'll shoot it twice during the day. You know, they'll shoot like an early show and a late show and kind of cut it together.

I can't imagine he did many, takes of this of this performance you know what I mean because it's so cohesive it's so coherent but that's like a one in a million audience too I mean I was thinking about this with like you know the in comparison to his SNL monologue which he comes out on stage at SNL he's wearing a white double-breasted blazer with no shirt underneath you know like a white suit with no shirt yeah and he does this basically like a comedy routine a about not wanting to talk about Will Smith for about four or five minutes.

And there's other stuff in there. He talks about coming out. But that was a little bit more of a traditional, like, I'm going to do my thing, you know? Like, and even that, he's able to take how he doesn't want to talk about it anymore. He doesn't want to talk about Will Smith. And it's a fucking hilarious monologue because he's just like, on Monday, it's all I wanted to talk about.

But also for the longest time, he doesn't even say the word. He doesn't. Will Smith slap Oscars, which makes it hilarious because I'm like, oh, this only works in this moment. This 10 years down the line you're on this. I know, nobody's going to know what he's talking about. You're just not going to know, but we all know what's happening. Yeah. And it's almost this, this meta thing where I'm just like, I wonder if part of this is like he just doesn't want to talk about coming out of the closet either where he's just like, I don't want to talk about it. It's like, he ruined the SEO for his own monologue. Like, you'll never be able to.

search that because he never says Will Smith. I mean, you can do it, but it's just really funny. Like, I've done that to blog posts I've written where I've just been like, I'm just going to write this dumb headline so that like this can't be a Bill Belichick post or whatever. Because I'm basically the drug carmichael of blogging when you think about it. You know, like I just thought that that was like a really, really cool moment that, you know, on Thursday, I was not thinking about Drac Carmichael. And by Sunday night, it was the only thing I was thinking about.

It's a weird run, isn't it? Because you don't see that anymore. You don't see... All right, perfect example. I will talk about the Grammys briefly because unfortunately I had to watch it. And the weirdest part of the Grammys is Morbius has come out, catch us on the Ring of Verse talking about it. And it was this typical thing where Jared Letto comes out on stage because he has to promote Morbius and whoever is introduced him. And Jared Letto's here to...

And he's a new movie Morbius. And we all know, like, just how shit the movie is. And all Jared Letto's like, all right, announcing the winner is like Justin Bieber. And I'm like, he doesn't want to be here. This isn't going to work. Nobody from the Grammys is going to be like, oh, Jared Letto has a Marvel movie out, of course. Right. So seeing it happen with Carmichael, you're just like, oh, this is like 25, 30 years ago.

This is the old way of doing things. And weirdly it's working for Carmichael in a way it will just not work for Letto. I just found it fascinating. Well, the music comparison works too, because like I said, Carmichael is kind of like, you know, like he said,

like I like to put out an album and then disappear. This felt almost like the old school album rollout. You know what I mean? Like, it felt like these people have, like this band or this artist

has a record out and then they're going to play SNL on Saturday. You know what I mean? And then like that SNL performance, especially before the internet, like if you saw a band on it, SNL, you might be like, that's the most people that will ever hear this song, like, ever, like right now or watching SNL, watching this band go for it. And there are times, like,

SNL will have, like, you know, they've had like Neil Young on and nobody needs to know more about Neil Young, even though he ripped it up at SNL. But they can break artists or at least introduce them to a much. My mom, who's 80, will still be like, did you see Gunna was on SNL this weekend? Do you know much about him? Your mom is just like, Chris, what pushing P? What are people pushing? Yeah. But yeah, it reminded me of the way like a musical artist

used to break rather than like a celebrity. Because like ultimately like you said, like Jared Leto, who is definitely doing his thing on We Crashed. I don't know whether I would say it's like great or not. I mean like he's definitely like going. He's fully committed. That's what I'll say for Jared Lett.

But he's not like writing his own material. Like he's not like, Morbius is not like, he might say it is, but it's not like carved out of his soul and revealing something very deep about him. Have you seen Morbius yet? No, he was. I'm not. He's acting like it. He's, he's acting like. And then Tyrese is just showing up like, man, buddy, you were doing too much. We're just collecting this check. Did you see that poor thing when Tyrese got like basically hoodwinked about Martin Scorsese this weekend? It broke my heart. Tyrese, for those that don't know, Tyrese is, is my patron saint of cinema. Whenever I see him in a movie, I'm just like, this is our, this is one of our finest actors. And of course, Tyrese would think that Martin Scorsese is like, you know what?

I've done hated all these superhero movies, all right? I've pissed off everyone with these takes in the nerd community. Which another movie that did it. Morvious. About the Spider-Man villain that nobody gives a fuck about. Yeah, he basically fell for a fake Martin Scorsese quote. I mean, it's happened to all of us, man. It's happened to all of us.

all of us have had to delete a quote tweet of a fake thing. You know what I mean? But for Tyrese... Shout out Ballsax Sports. It must have cut really deep. But yeah, man, I just thought it was like a very cool moment. It was, you know, both of the performances, they were different, but they were also of a piece. And I thought the S&L was pretty funny.

You know what I mean? Like, I thought the Will Smith, the seat filler, Will Smith sketch was good. Like, I watched SNL as clips. Like, I might like staying home Saturday night to watch it. But it was a cool. weekend for Gerard Carmichael. Speaking, I want to keep this, this ideas of sort of comedy and also like these writers and actors, but like keeping the musical analogy going, because I wanted to talk to you a little bit about this season of Atlanta. Okay, let's do it. If this season of Atlanta was a,

was an artist's album, you know, where in their discography do you think Atlanta is right now? So there's this thing that happens in rap, especially when it's a black, artist where because of the majority of people who make rap come from backgrounds maybe where they've never traveled the world before. You get these albums where they will go to like Europe and or they'll go to somewhere else and there's like, dog, they, black people everywhere. Or you'll get an album where someone will be like, I went to Africa and everything about my world view changed. So I think the two really big. examples of this are, and two very divisive albums, you get like a Kendrick Lamar album where he goes

to Africa for the first time and he comes back and he wants to make this like freewheeling jazz project to contend with Good Kid Mad City, which people were frothing at the mouth over and we're just like, this is the best thing since Omatic. Or you have someone like Kanye who releases my beautiful dark twisted fantasy, comes back, he does everything right. And then he tries, he goes to Paris, he tries to get the fashion industrial complex to accept him. They don't, and he comes back with like, Yeezus. And he gets like death. I am an angry god.

Yeah. Yeah, I am a god. Black skin had all this shit. And to me, that's this season of Atlanta where it's about what happens when you're successful as a black person and you finally get to travel and you have the money and you have everything that you want. And your life isn't that much better. And that's why I think Donald Glover, a little salty.

He's throwing a little acid out on the T. What are your thoughts on this, Chris? Well, Andy and I talked to Hero Moray a little bit about this, you know, when he came on the show last week and we were asking him about, because Hero was like, you know, he was like neurotic about, like, I'm more neurotic about, like, making Atlanta and, like, making sure we have everything we need and everything. And I was like, so how does it feel when Donald's, like,

comparing Atlanta to Sopranos and stuff like that? And he was just like, well, I appreciate his, you know, he's like, I appreciate the swagger or whatever. But I think that like, this third episode was was very funny, you know, and it's like very obviously rooted in like it was clearly like an anthology of personal experiences at weird parties that these people have been through in the last five years. And I thought it was an interesting mix of what seems like real life experiences and also what seemed like the experience of being online. You know, like, yeah, I do think that sometimes I'll be interested to see, like, especially as like we kind of make more and more stuff in the years to come, how much like online brain seeps into into stories that we're telling, you know, or like experiences that people have by being online, especially coming out of the last two years where I feel like most people

have probably spent most of their time in some form or another being online. Like, there was a couple of things that happened in the third episode of Atlanta, which I don't doubt happen in real life, but also felt like, what if Twitter was real? Oh, there were a couple jokes. Even the 21 Savage joke. I was just like, this, I can tell you've been holding on to this season forever. But the thing that I find interesting is, did you read the Brunson, the creator of Abbott Elementary's interview?

Quinta's interview. And I believe it was New York Times or New York Times Magazine. Oh, yeah, yeah. I didn't get a chance to check it out yet. But I wanted to talk to you about Abbott anyway, but yeah. So she said something to the. effect of talking about the success of Abbott Elementary. And she brought up the fact that she had gotten tired of shows that basically felt like

they were regurgitating your Twitter timeline. And I think that was one thing that Atlanta, when it first debuted, that was novel. Black Twitter was still a thing that you would claim. And to have these creators being like, all right, not only are we on Black Twitter and we see everything that's happening there, but we are going to make a show that is going to going to show you that we can like elevate it. We're going to make it as quote unquote like the thing that makes me gag, like Lynchian, whatever. And while that was novel, back when did Atlanta debut 2016? Yeah. It's just not novel now. It's, it's been four years. And I think so many shows

have done that in the interim. It doesn't seem as fresh when Atlanta does it. And that's the thing that I think they might be chafing against because what people don't realize is four years makes people assume that they know what this show is now. It's the same thing that happened with euphoria. So many people binge watch it. So many people see it all together.

They're like, why isn't this shit about a rapper and a manager anymore? And I'm like, guys, it never really was. That's like asking why Seinfeld isn't about the inner workings of daily comedian. I'm like, it never fucking was. Why doesn't this guy ever knock?

That's really, yeah. I thought that the, I had to take a step back at this third episode because I think I have finished it. I was like, that was pretty good. And I started thinking about like the, you know, that basically the woman who essentially gets canceled over the course of the party.

You know what I mean? For like the comment that she makes. And I was like, you know, is just that, would that ever happen and like at a real party? And then I was like, what am I doing? Like, I was not, I wasn't that I was like picking at the show, but it was more that like, I feel like I just took for granted that I just watched a 35 minute episode of television where four lovely characters go up to what seems like a pretty downtrodden, like, flat in London, then get led in through a backdoor up a stairwell to a billionaire's house because it's like basically he lives behind like a bad house. He's basically got a decoy house for his incredible palatial pad in London, where he has a fucking Nando's in his house.

And, you know, it's basically an episode about like wealthy people being Jeepskates, ultimately. And the sort of like ephemeralality of like all the money flying around the world right now. And there's about a bunch of other things. I don't know. Somehow, like, I like take for granted the level of creativity that this show can just like toss off with a flick of the wrist so that at the end of the episode

if I'm not like, that didn't change my life and they'll change the way I look at the world. Like I almost feel mildly let down by it. Yeah, that is the same emotion I've been feeling that I've been having to catch myself because when, especially when it hits its stride in season two, you're seeing Atlanta do things where, you know, the Teddy Perkins episode, I rewatch it.

I'm like, oh, this shit holds up. Like this is hilarious. and now Atlanta's competing against a Teddy Perkins episode where it's like if we don't get that type of writing and performance

we're just like oh my gosh did Atlanta fall off and I'm like guys we just got this we just got a scene which like emotionally to me speaks so much

of like Earn having to be like do I just take this guy's money like the UK rapper is whack and him in him and paper Paperboy are having this really like intimate discussion where Paperboy is just like, dude, what like, yes, what the fuck are you doing? Just take the money. Like, white people in these places have millions upon

millions of dollars. If they're throwing it at you, take it. Why are you going to take it out of this kid's hands? And I'm like, this show is saying something that is true and honest. And I'm just wondering, all right, what's the next inventive thing that's going to change TV? Like, that's got, like, I'm like, are they the dicks or am I the dick in this situation? I think part of it is that it's been gone for a while. like there was like a feeling of like and I wonder whether or not like this this conversation will seem completely silly if season four

comes like relatively soon after season three and we kind of like feel like oh okay like Atlanta just ran the last 18 to 24 months with like it's brilliance. But you know when there's a delay when you're waiting so long for the season to come back I do think that you have

like you rightfully expect like a reinvention of the wheel. You know what I mean? Like when it's, it's almost the thing that I think I've gotten used to with the Marvel and Star Wars stuff now at this point is that because we get so much of it, I'm not going into, like, I didn't go into Moon Knight being like, this needs to, this needs to blow my mind. I kind of was just like, I'm fine just being entertained for 51 minutes, if that's what it does. And, you know, whether it did that is arguable. But like, I didn't, I like, when you think about when we were, when Wanda Vision came on, and people were like, is fucking Reed Richards in this show or what? You know, like, like, people were really fired up about that and like dissecting episodes of Wanda Vision, like it was like the finale of Twin Peaks and that's cool.

But that is like, that is not where we're at now in that, in that process. And so I'm getting into arguments about whether, like, people are jumping down my throat from me just saying like, hey, do we think that maybe we should be asking more of the MCU and their TV? great TV experiment because it's very ironic that Kevin Feigy made the movies more like TV shows

and seems incapable of making TV shows that feel as good as movies. Yeah, but like I just feel like what this is doing is like these the MCU TV shows

are taking us back to comic books where like you go every week and you buy a few and it's like that was pretty good and you maybe reread it

and you like break it down and maybe you look for like little like Easter eggs or plot details or references to stuff and you're like cool and now I'm going to go on with my day.

But it used to be what the genius of what he did with the movies and with at least the launch of the TV shows was eventizing something that where he was like always going to be moving, kicking the can down the road. He inventized like this idea that like once every five months, everybody is going to go to the movie theater to watch this story incrementally move forward and think that they were watching Godfather too, which I'm not like, I love those movies. But what I'm saying is that this is a lot more like what my experience of reading comic books was when I was 13 or 15. You know, it's like, yeah, like it was, this is a weekly experience, you know, like, or like, and then every once in a while, a big book or a crossover event happens and you're into it.

But I mean, I dare say that like if they keep going at the clip that they're going, they're going to be more like the CW shows than they are going to be like MCU movies, right? Oh, I mean, I shout out to my partner, my girlfriend for having to listen to this rant. But I feel the same exact way where I was just like, oh, not only do these feel more like comic books, it feels like the process of collecting a comic where instead of having to critically wrangle with Moon Night, sometimes I told my brother once. I'm like, yeah, he's like, I feel like you could be harsher on the show. And I'm just like, yeah, if there's a party where everybody wants Pepsi and I bring a nice bottle of red wine, am I the asshole or is everybody else the asshole?

And it's starting to feel like with these shows, it's like we vacuum seal them in our little containers. Or like, I collected this episode. And now I know this Easter egg that will pay off in like two or three movies. And that's it. And like that sometimes was the worst portion of reading comic books where I'm like, I want to get this comic book like dirty.

I want to like give it to my friend. And like we both read it and like break down like, oh, is this great? Like fuck this. writer, fuck this artist. And now it's more so like, oh, no, I just have a new variant cover of Moon Night now and I'm going to put it in this order. And when it connects to Miss Marvel and this and that way, and it's just like weirdly a bummer. And if we wrap it back to Atlanta, Marvel is feeling less, like less of an event. Whereas to its detriment, Atlanta is feeling more like an event where I'm just like,

it's not the Super Bowl of peak TV anymore. Like, yeah, oh God, fuck this. and I'm just like, maybe Atlanta shouldn't be an event. Like, maybe that is the worst way we can view this thing. Well, and it's also, I think, because Atlanta right now is pushing the stories about what's going on with its characters very far to the edges. So we had the first episode, which wasn't about Van and Earn and Alfred and Darius at all. Then we have the second episode, which is a kind of comic caper through the Netherlands. And then there's this episode, which is, again, a comic kind of like escape movie set in London

and has a lot of cool, like, funny jokes and inside jokes about the music industry and the sort of the art world and the super rich. But then there's that one moment between Van and Earn where they're sitting by the pool. And it's like, oh, like he's talking to her mom. She's not doing that well. Like what's going on with Van? What's going on with these two? like, is there a reconciliation here?

Like, it's kind of like, oh, like these like little human moments between these two people have definitely been kind of like, they've lost kind of like the spotlight compared to the larger thing. And I think that that's always been Atlanta's recipe is that they hit you with this like incredibly human moment while also showing you the absurdity of the world around these people. But yeah, I mean, if Atlanta's expectations are suffering because they're too high, the MCUs now have become too low. I think the reason that the MCU has become too low, I think the reason that the MCU, I think the reason why it gets twisted up is because, like, if Moon Knight was just, like, two random, like, relatively attractive guys, like, doing fake Indiana Jones, like, cosplay while

also being superheroes, that would be, these are two of the best actors alive. You know what I mean? Like, like, they get really incredibly talented people to work on these shows. And so I think that you of the expectation that you're going to get something that like aspires to or reaches the heights that you know that the people involved in the series is capable of. You know what I mean? Oh, absolutely. I mean, Ethan Hawke had a great, a great profile in GQ UK that I was reading over the, uh, the weekend. And he says something to the effect of like, yeah, you know, like, he was talking about this being radical for Marvel, where he was just like, oh, they don't, they don't really rehearse. Me and Oscar

were used to being on stage on Broadway. We're like, no, we want to rehearse. You want to go back and forth. We want to build that chemistry. And the Marvel machine being like, what the fuck is? What are these guys asking for? Like, that's how outside of regular art Marvel is

in terms of like just two actors wanting to rehearse and build chemistry is wild for them. And Ethan says something to the effect of like having to really emotionally make peace with the fact that he's finally

been like all right I'm going to be in this show and when you watch the TV show I'm like I don't know

if this can contain what Ethan wants in terms of like his talent level like you see too attractive people at like the height of their game

going back and forth and I'm like this could have been more like you could tell like there's one switch that they just can't get to because

Marvel just has to chug along. This is like one thing. And then a month from now, we're going to get another thing. And a month from now, we're going to get another thing. And weirdly, it's just like Ethan and Oscar feel like

they're vibrating at a frequency that's not of the MCU. It's hard to wrap my mind. Well, I'm really interested in the history of Hollywood or like American mass entertainment, even of like, the tradeoffs that artists make with, you know,

mainstream audiences and mega corporations making this stuff where you're essentially like, I mean, we talk about it a lot on this pot. You guys talk about it. It's like, you're, you know, you're using some kind of big box, like in this case, the MCU to Trojan horse ideas in.

You know what I mean? Or Trojan horse. Like, I can't, and especially over the last five or six years or ten years, really, I think as the superhero genre and the comic book genre has become so dominant, you just see more. and more and more people being like, I would love to make widows, or I would love to make Oceans 11, or I would love to make romancing the stone. But since I can't just sell those things on their own,

I will take this Marvel property and I will like just jerry-rig it to have my my heist movie or my 90s action comedy or my lynchian weird meta rift on 50s television or, whatever you want, it's like each one of these shows. And, and then I will pay the cost to be the boss by like, I will do whatever work Marvel needs me to do where I shoot a scene where somebody is just like, that's an infinity stone. You know what I mean? And that's like, that's the price of doing business now

because it's so hard to get any other kind of original storytelling going. Ethan Hawk, for the last, you know, 30 years, 40 years, has essentially been making those original stories. Now that's not to say Ethan Hogg doesn't make bullshit. You know what I mean? or the Ethan Hawk never makes bad movies or the Ethan Hawks never in the Magnificson 7 or something

or like a subpar cop movie. But I think that it's interesting to watch this guy who's so obviously conscious of like the ethics that go into storytelling and the truthfulness and the honesty with which he wants to have like a relationship with the stories he's telling and be like, fuck man, I'm making content.

Yeah, I mean, it's... Hey, at some point we all, we all got to pay the mass, or we all got to give the machine blood. But I do think to your point, it was a rough viewing experience from me going from Morbius to Moon Knight back to back.

Because I was sitting in Morbius, and I'm just like, Morbius and Moon Knight are very similar characters where these are not like beloved institutions. They don't have like some illustrious career. It's not like, we're finally giving you

what you guys have been clamoring for for decades. Exactly. Like, here's the thing, when they mess up Daredevil, when Ben Affleck messes up Daredevil, Daredevil, you're like, oh, there is many comic runs where some of the best creators will take this character and do something wild with it, whether it's Frank Miller or Bendis or Brubaker. Moon Knight is not that. Morbius is definitely not that.

So for both, I was sitting, I was just like, it would have been so dope if Jared Letto just made a weird emo vampire movie that was not Morbius. It's just like, I would have signed up for that. Yeah, you don't even want it to be like Jared Leto does like a cool character study about a doctor living in New York. You were like, you're like, you can still be a vampire. Just go ahead and make your vampire. Just make your vampire.

If Jared Leto is just like, I'm going to make the great American vampire story. I'm like, sign me up. Sign me the fuck up. Him having to like explain away bullshit being like, oh, no, the vultures here. And now we're teaming up against Spider-Man. I'm like, all right, let's wrap it. I've been the same thing with Moon Knight. If Oscar Isaac was like,

You know what? I want to make my Indiana Jones. I want to make like a pulp type adventure, um, movie. And it's going to be great. Museum gives shop clerk who has like a secret identity. Exactly. Dissociative identity sort. I was like, I want to make memento and Indiana Jones together.

I'd be like, cool, sign me up. Give me three movies of that. Right. Instead, to your point, where we have to sit through like Ethan Hawke, like having to give this explainer of just being like, I was once the avatar of this Egyptian god as well. His name is gone to. And you could just see Ethan Hawk just being like, God, dear.

I hope this check clears. He knows the check is clearing, but it's just like, I wonder, I don't know, I will give this a shot. Like, I mean, like, I like those guys so much that I want to see, like, where this goes and everything and kind of see where it winds up. I'm in a weird way, I almost wonder whether like that show specifically could have used like a little like King the Conqueror injection or something.

Like it could, like if it could have used actually a little bit more MCU in a weird way because like it's kind of drifting at least after one episode. And I know you can't really judge anything off one episode. But like on its own, you're just kind of like, okay, so this dude is definitely a superhero. Like he has a cape.

So like what's his connection to all the other superheroes in the world? I was really, Andy was saying how glad he was that they didn't mention the blip and they didn't mention Sukovia or whatever and like all the things. And I was like, I'm glad to. But like, I'm very curious to see how they wind up threading it into like the larger tapestry of that. And maybe that speaks to the like my maybe relative lack of interest in the story itself. I mean, if Mahersha Ali comes in the season finale and him and Moon Knight are just like busting each other's ass, then you will like have all of your takes stricken from the record. I'm just like, Fuck that. Kevin Feige injected in my veins. You got me again.

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and watching Marvel stuff or Star Wars stuff or do you actually like, do you feel like compelled to watch winning time? Like what, like, because you're saying, like, I was watching the raid and I was like just imagining you on a Saturday night with like three IPAs and just watching dudes get broken in half. Like, is winning time kind of like your like your pleasure watch or is that like, oh, I feel like I should check this out? Oh, it's definitely my pleasure watch. It's, I will say when when it's a winning time in Atlanta, when you have these type of shows on, it's like a cold beer in the desert because.

And here's the thing. I grew up a comic fan. I love the Midnight Boy. Shout out to Van Lathen. Like he's my guy. Like, we love to do this. It's what gets me up in the morning. But I'm going to be honest.

This is going to sound bad, but do you ever feel like there's like an artistic level that these movies just will never be able to get to? There's a thing that like maybe rarely they do, but you know kind of what you're signing up for. And like, I like, I like watching winning time struggle from episode to episode to be like, what is this show? All right, now we hit our stride.

We're going back. I like watching the mechanics of that. I like watching Atlanta be like, all right, what are we after four years? There's that artistic struggle. You could see people like aspiring to greatness even if they fail. That is my favorite thing to watch in television. Where it's with like Marvel, I'm like, you're not really, like, of course people are aspiring to greatness, but not in that same way. like there's nobody like holding their nuts like Donald Glover being like all right this shit only

sopranos is touching our shit and I'm just like whoa uh what are you saying fuck that like I'm gonna watch this I want to see I want to see if this burns on the side of the road so yeah they're their palate cleansers and this week's winning time frustrated me so much Chris you know it's that's a really interesting question because I I wonder whether or not the highs that you would be chasing, like, the best fucking feeling you can have when you're watching something like that, when you're watching a superhero show or a superhero movie.

And I think I was texting with you in Van a couple of weeks ago when the Batman came out. And I was like, I just watched, rewatch Dark Night. And I think I sent you the clip, I think I may have, like, sent you the YouTube clip of the truck chase, like the truck flip. And basically, like, Ledger and Batman's, Joker and Batman's showdown on the street.

And I was just like, you know, all due respect to the Batman, but I was like, there's just, there's nothing in this movie that approaches this. But I was, when I watched that clip, I was like, I feel high as shit watching this. Like, I can't believe how good this was. I can't believe how good we had it. But like, the high is when you can get that whole thing clicking with not only the mythology, but also like the filmmaking, the sort of the VFX and the stunts and like all the budget going into it. And you can get Heath Ledger and Christian Bale actually dramatizing

like patently ridiculous things like a guy in a bat suit and a guy with clown makeup but make you feel like you're watching heat. Like that's pretty amazing. And I think that the height of it, I mean, I don't know what you would say over, like over the last like five or six years are like the peaks of this stuff.

So let's say over the last like two or three years. Is there a moment from, MCU especially, let's say, that jumps out at you as like, this will be the iconic, people will be looking at this on YouTube in 15 years and being like, I can't believe I remember where I was when I saw this. Or is it just a compilation of like doubles? And it's like, that was pretty good. And then there was another pretty good moment. And then there was another pretty good moment. I mean, it's hard because like the fandom wants to say yes. But like the things that jump out to me are not because

like cinematically they were gorgeous. It's like, oh, Peter Parker disintegrating and I remember like where I was and like the whole theater

being like, what the fuck is going to happen? And you know in the back of your mind it's a comic book movie he's going to come back but you're like, oh shit. Like, wait.

That was a while ago though. That's a, yeah, like that's what I'm saying or even Loki, I like, that feeling of like, oh shit,

like they're doing the, they're doing the king thing. Jonathan Majors is just kind of come in for 30 minutes and do his thing. And it's surprising because it's in a TV show. It's not a Heath Ledger performance. Which is like, oh, I can't believe they're pulling this in a TV show. It's not the same feeling that you get in the dark night. And if we connected to Moon Night, I was talking to my brother.

And I'm like, yo, has Hollywood forgotten how to do a chase scene? Because the Moon Night Chase on the Alps is not. Like, CGI-wise, there was moments in it where I was just like, I can tell this isn't real. I don't get that feeling

of the Bat-Pod coming out and like, the Joker just like standing there like daring Batman to come and get him. And I was just like, oh, maybe because we're getting so many of these now, we're never going to get

those transcendent moments where you feel like, oh shit, this is why they're going to spend $100 million dollars and get the best actors in the world to dawn makeup and make us believe

that like we're 15 again. Right. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I think we could do a whole other podcast about how those shows look. And like people have talked really in depth about like the sort of color palette that Marvel works in and why like the effects don't look great and why like it always just looks like a kind of

mildly overcast day in Atlanta in every one of those shots of everything no matter where they're set. But yeah, I mean, that is what winning. time has going for it, right? Is that, like, aside from the fact that it's an incredibly compelling story, is, it just looks different.

They're really going for it. And like, you might think it's on me, but that's what I love. Sometimes they make decisions where I'm like, all right, Adam McKay, like, relax. Can we take it back 10 degrees? But the fact that there's a choice, the fact that they committed to something. Yeah. And from episode to episode, each director either uses it and builds on it. Like the, the, ones that aren't directed by Adam McKay, I've been like, oh,

these directors kind of saw what he did and now they're just like, I'm going to take this part, but I'm not taking this part. And there's an intentionality behind it that I'm just like, this is beautiful. But I'm not,

I'm going to be honest, Chris. Not a big basketball head. Everything I know about basketball comes from the podcast that I listen to on at the ringer network. So the thing that I find funny about winning time is I was just like, why isn't this show leaning into the basketball?

I thought the last episode before this one was like, This is electric. This is watching them learn how to play Showtime basketball is just so infectious. Even in this episode, the stuff that worked for me was the locker room scenes where they're like, does this did, did what? It circumcised his own dick with a rock. Like that type of like locker room atmosphere. I'm like, this should have been the whole show.

I just what I want. So I wanted to ask you this. So, like, you were watching this. And, like, I watched winning time. And when Spencer Haywood comes on, I'm like, I know Spencer Haywood is. You know what, like, I know what Spencer Haywood did. I can assure you that Spencer Haywood, when he got traded to the lake, when he went to sign with the Lakers was 30.

Wood Harris is 52. I fucking love Wood Harris, but he is 22 years older than Spencer Haywood was when he signed with the Lakers. I mean, Wood Harris is a great actor and a very good basketball player. I'm sure he's going to do great in this role. And I was so excited to see him, but I was just like, he is not Spencer Awood's age.

When you watch winning time, not knowing, I mean, like, do you, did you know what happened to Jack McKinney, for instance? No, and that's the thing actually where

it's a weird watch for me because I feel like I know enough about basketball that like if my girlfriend, like, turns to me and ask a question about the Showtime Lakers, I can give her like the Wikipedia. to answer because I watch a documentary

once. But I don't know the inner workings of like whether Norm Nixon is going to get traded or not or what's going to happen to Jack McKinney. And I think that makes it a more pleasurable watch because when I'm on the Midnight Boys, I'm like I know too much. Like I just know too much. I've read these comic books.

I know all of the bullshit. I've watched Clone Wars too many times to be like when you watch winning time, it's just like my brain is shut off and I'm just like cool dunk. Yeah. Great. I'm just like, oh, will magic and Kareem work together? Like, I know it in the back of my mind. But when he, like, throws it out of YouTube.

I'm like, my lizard brain is like, that's pretty too. Yeah. I mean, I think that maybe the we're having like the switch where it's like, when I watch winning time, I'm like, poor Jack McKinney. You know what I mean? Before we, like, as soon as he walks on the screen, I'm like, I say that. And then when I watch like Knobe and I listen to you guys talk about the Canobi trailer and you're like, well, then that happens in this animated episode.

And I'm just like, what the fuck are they? Who the fuck is the? Inquisitor. Like, why are people excited about this guy? And the Bain comes out and you're just like, who is this blue frog, man? Why is everybody? Why is Rango on this fucking show?

So if you're asking me, these are, your winning times are the television that cleans my palate. Not because I'm like, this is the best television show ever. It's just like, oh, it's nice to not know. Yeah, I thought that this episode was good. So what's, do you think next up, like, once winning time is done and once like, I mean, I guess you have Moon Night Now and then Kenobi next, right?

Oh, Chris, we have Kenobi, Miss Marvel, and the boys all running at the same time. That's a lot, man. We're trying to figure out like, all right, we're going to have to talk about them all. How do we talk about them all? Do we want to talk about them all? And I think that's also the thing that is becoming very, very hard where it's just like, Hollywood is just doing this thing where they're just like, fuck your release date. You know, House of Dragon is now.

now stepping on Lord of the Rings release date. And in the nerd space, I'm just kind of like, it's starting to seem like none of this matters as much as we thought it would in the beginning. Well, maybe they need to just like come up with some application of like TV needs a box office where we can just finally be like, damn, like this one. Now I don't know necessarily that we would like to see the results when we find out that like nine people watch the very critically acclaimed show that we all love.

And it's just like, but you know, like, Maybe people need to know that, like, just FYI, like, a lot of people watch Abbott this week. And, like, that was, like, the winner of the week. And we can pretend like it was this. But it was actually, like, now we would just find out that, like, every Dick Wolf show is just, like, crushing, crushing people. And, like, I don't think we would, like, it wouldn't change the algorithm of how we talk about TV. But, yeah. I mean, I would have loved a breakdown of, like, Station 11.

People, like, people really, really love the even episodes, but them odd episodes. Like, I want that type of that kind of advanced stats. But Andy and I talked about this a couple weeks ago, where we were looking at the next six weeks of like the last few weeks of March and all of April. And there were 25 good shows coming out.

There were 25 shows of interest coming out. That is absurd. When you ask me, like, I still have to watch Severance and Pichinko, but also I am watching Clone Wars, which I'm just like, I could be like watching something that actually nourishes my spirit.

and instead, I'm just like, Obi-Wan Kenobi's coming out. Gotta watch seven seasons of Clone Wars in preparation. Like, that is the type of thing that, like, just melts your brain because there's just so much. I tried to re-watch Atlanta before this season came on. I'm just like, all right,

homie, you got to pick your shots. I was going to watch Better Call Saul getting ready for this season. I was just like, I don't think I have, like, the stamina or, like, the bandwidth to do this, which is a shame because that was one of the cool things like when, you know, when Binge Movers do Thrones and they would do like a giant rewatch before the show would start, you know what I mean? And I would just be like, damn,

like this, you can feel the text expanding and growing because of the amount of scholarship they were putting into it. And I, you know, it's not that like that can't happen anymore, but it's, it is, it is a much more crowded, crowded space. Hey, I, maybe we should just, we should just have like award shows, you know. Chris, but do you understand, you having me on today? has just renewed my spirit because in eight minutes I have to go talk about Morbius

and have you seen Morbius? Do you mind if I give you a mild spoiler? I'm not going to see Morbius. It's okay. There is a point where I'm just like we have veered off as a civilization because Morbius does a Hadoquan style

energy blast with living vampires. And I was just like, wait, what? wait, what's happening? Why is he throwing thousands of vampires with his spirit

at another person? And I was just like, Charles, there's so many steps in your life that have led you to this moment and I don't know if that is like good for me or it's just like just going

I'm going to have to explain this to my children at once. Like why dad is a husk of himself. You're going to have like a mask oxygen mask on? Can dad have a catch? He's like, dad's trying to get over Morbius. It's been 15 years.

But the Houdoucan energy blast of vampires and him, you know? Charles, thank you so much for coming on the watch today, man. We'll have to have you on again soon. I hope that the rest of Moon night treats you better than the first episode. Yo, thank you so much.

I had a blast, Chris.