The Watch - Jon Snow Returns and the Letdown of ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi.’ Plus, Jeremy Allen White on His Exciting New Show, ‘The Bear.’

Episode Date: June 23, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the news that a ‘Game of Thrones’ Jon Snow sequel series is in the works and what that could look like (1:00). Then they talk about the season finale of ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ (13:23) and the exciting new chef show ‘The Bear’ (33:40), before Chris is joined by the star of ‘The Bear,’ Jeremy Allen White, to talk more about the show (45:10). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Jeremey Allen White Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the rigger.com and joining me on the other line. He can't wait for the further adventures of Roken. It's Andy Greenwald! Is that Ice Cube Jr.? Right? He's Roken, right? Oh yeah, his adventures are just beginning.

I can't wait. I can't wait to see where that leads. Andy, it's a beautiful Thursday here in the United States of America. We're doing the Watch podcast and we're here to talk about television. And I got to say, we have a really good one today because we have a show that's debuted today. The Bear on FX. It's on Hulu. entire season is up on FX on Hulu. It's eight, eight episodes. They're about 30 minutes each. We have Jeremy Allen White, who's the star of that show on the show, our podcast today.

So we're going to talk a little bit about that. Pretty spoiler-free. My conversation with Jeremy Allen White did get into some spoilers towards the end of the chat. So if you are, maybe want to save that for when you've watched a few of the episodes, but it comes with our highest possible recommendation. We're going to get into the bear in a second. Andy, it's great to see it. How you doing? I'm okay. It's been a week. We had a federal holiday on Monday. So this is our first part of the week. It is. That's right. And we missed some news in the in the interim. We did. We missed some news. A Star Wars television show ended. It's its final episode aired. So we've got some we got some news and notes to get through before we talk about

the bear, which I am in complete agreement with you on. It's my favorite thing. What would you like to start with? Would you like to start with the return of John Snow? I think we should mention it because this, this hit right after we recorded. We did not emergency podcast. this. No. And it was pretty, I have to say pretty, okay, it's not shocking news in the sense that HBO, or it was reported by James Hibbard, who has been the guy in the know about Game of Thrones dating back to his days at Entertainment Weekly. He reported for, I believe, the Hollywood reporter, or it wasn't variety, right? It was T.HR. That HBO is in early development on a, I mean, they're in development on many Game of Thrones spinoffs and sequels and prequels,

but specifically a Game of Thrones series centered on John Snow's adventures beyond the wall. So directly picking up the canon, the storyline of the mothership Game of Thrones show. Now, not shocking. All of these companies have everything in development. That's the name of the game. Nobody is, to quote our great generational heroes, Farrell and Chad Hugo, never really dies, and that's true for fictional characters as well. What was surprising, and I think you and I are in Lockstep about this, is the timing of the news leak,

which makes me really think it was a leak, not like a, hey, nudge, nudge, James, here's a nugget for you, because HBO, as a corporate entity at this moment is pivoting its big guns, its thousand ships in the lore of George R. Martin to launch its first Game of Thrones spin-off, House of a Dragon, which is premiering in August, and between now and then there's going to be a ton of, I mean, The key art was just released. There's going to be more, you know, snippets and clips and things. It's coming, and they're coming in hot with it. This doesn't seem to me.

Look, I'm no PR expert, but this doesn't seem to be the right time to say, hey, but don't worry, remember this other thing? We're going to do that too. It does not seem to be that time. It does not seem to be the right time for that. So I think there's two stories here, and you can choose your own path here at where we want to go. There's the creative reasons for the show and our feelings about that. And then there's also the strange sort of industry timing of this news.

I think either leaking or being snatched or whatever the case may be. So I'll just throw one other tidbit in there as I was like reading about this. I expected to see either crickets from HBO or, you know, basically not a lot of like follow-up reporting here. Did you know that Amelia Clark was on like a talk show and was just like, yeah, that's for sure happening. Kit created the show? I did not know that.

I did not know that. Now let me just say I read that in NME, the British Music Weekly. So perhaps my sourcing is not great, but it does speak to the idea of, you know, Kit Harrington had notoriously had like a complicated relationship with the role of John Snow. I think if anyone coming out of Game of Thrones

had probably felt the most like, you know, like playing the character had cost him something or just basically had left it all out on the field. And it was hard to imagine him ever going back to that world. So it's interesting that there is this added, of this isn't just like, hey, brother, like, what, how many zeros would it take for you to come back? It's like, also, like, what do you want to do with this guy? Now, that does speak to the fact

that, now, there's entirely possible that Kit Harrington has a WhatsApp with George R. Martin, and he's like, what's been going on with this guy day after he saves humanity, his wife loses it, and he goes walking into the snow, what's going on out there with him? And they've been going back and forth about this. But I don't know. I mean, like, Game of Thrones ended in a way that was so kind of controversial for a lot of the people who love the story, I guess I should say, that it's kind of fascinating to imagine them doing something that like continues A, the mothership thread, and B, picks up

right at the moment where most people were like flipping the table over. It is interesting. I think, I'd like to think that Kit Harrow. Arrington watched our beloved series, The Northwater, and was like, so that's what happens when a British guy walks off into the snow. That's right. He climbs inside the carcass of a polar bear, no spoilers. So maybe he was like, we could do that, too.

I'd imagine that probably factored into his decision-making. And I think you're right to point out that he has a complicated relationship to it. I mean, it made him famous and probably, you know, set him up financially. He met his wife making the show because he's now married to Rose Leslie. but he has been also very candid about substance abuse struggles that he went through while making the show and some darker periods of his life. So I wonder if there's some element of redemption in that to him that he wants to go back to it on his own terms.

I would say, and I don't, this may surprise people who know that I generally check out when cynicism checks start getting cashed for continuing adventures of stories that probably didn't need to continue. But of those stories. Get ready. It was the most open-ended, you know, of storylines in that last season didn't do anyone any favors. But I think particularly it did no favors for John Snow, who just was kind of lurching from one thing that had to happen plot-wise to another, including ultimately with Dideras, and then wandered off. Did he marry Dineris or am I making that up?

When you said that, I was like, could that really have happened? Was that a common law thing? Well, I mean, they're already related, so I don't know how much extra zeshing you needed to do to make it official. You know what I mean? Right. He could have just asked like a cousin to join the universe. What's that church that your friends would join to marry you? Oh, yeah.

Remember that thing? The universal, like, Unitarian First Vegas church of I get to marry you. Yeah. I was about to say that's what it's like in the eyes of the seven, but then isn't the seven both the gods in Game of Thrones and the Super Team in the boys? That's right. I'm getting really confused. used here with our with our uh lux IP offerings but I guess I would say that like okay like I actually am not uninterested in that character and his adventures with the only people in Westrose who know

how to have fun other than the Dornish you know the wildlings like cool let's get after it I'm I'm not against it and I think especially if it is and I would imagine this is the case and I say this with no slander towards them but I would imagine this would be someone else who hasn't who hopefully has a point of view picking up this mantle not bending off and Weiss who did what they wanted to do with the story and are moving on And they seem super busy. They got three-body problems. That piece of it, I'm actually fine with creatively.

I also think that so far, and we'll see when the floodgates for Game of Thrones spinoffs really open what it feels like, but I have some faith in the institutional read-the-room wisdom of HBO that they will try, at least until it becomes, you know, unless, until David Zazlov and Discovery prize it out of their creative hands, to be thoughtful about what they put out, you know, and have a reason to do it. So until they prove us otherwise, I'm going to believe that. That said, it's odd because I think the most interesting thing for me this summer, big prestige TV-wise, is the launch of a New Game of Thrones show X many years after the show went off the air,

X many years after people were disappointed with it, and trying to do that balancing act that we've seen other major corporations try with, you know, varying levels of success to continue to give people what they want, but also make the case for it being something new. And so to be trying to do that balancing act this summer and then have this slip out that to make this, which does know, which is a disservice to both shows, by the way, because it puts the John Snow show in the role of, but don't worry, fans, we're going to still take care of you. Yeah, I mean, it's also a question about, I guess this segues into Star Wars too, which is what's a satisfying John Snow story? Is it like a one-hander survivalist PTSD like him walking through the snow and trying to make sense of what happens? on the last seven seasons of his,

his character's life? Or is it a new adventure? Or is it we actually do need you to come back and help brand run the world? Like I, it's like, what they try to do with that is going to be really fascinating. Because I think when we watch, and we're going to talk about Obi-Wan a little bit here,

you know, you and I probably fruitlessly have always kind of been like, well, why don't they just make like a cool, like, very, contained Obi-Wan as a detective story or, you know, this, this, like, little, like, small window into Star Wars rather than everything being this massive panorama. We'll see, like, Thrones, I think, very consciously is starting with House of the Dragon as a, um, huge tapestry. As, as, like, this, I'm, you know, you can, you can, you can bet that there are going to be,

like, 12, 15 characters and all this, like, pushing and pulling going on. It's not a small story. But John, I wonder what would be the attraction for Kid Harrington? What would be the thing that he's like, I never got to do this kind of thing with him. And I think that would be very cool. I don't know. Maybe this is just guy walks into a rake. But like, I feel weirdly optimistic about the potential for it because, because first of all, this is why maybe I'm just am a fool. Because until you said, like, he gets called South to help the Avengers, you know, Rue Westeros again, that didn't even occur to me, that that that. was even impossible. Like, all I was thinking of. Dude. I know. I'm terrible at this era.

Terrible. I'm like, how interesting. Like, he'll make a new society, you know, and find out, find some old runes and legends. Do it be cool if John started a commune? Yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, Dantraper goes to Esselin, but cold. Yeah. Yeah. I'm totally fine with that. Um, but, you know, again, this is the stuff that, that they pay Casey ploys and the rest of the executive team big bucks for is to determine how to adjust the tap, how much to give, when to give it, how to relate, how to enter into it, you know, and I think that hopefully they are studying what went right and what went wrong with Disney and Lucasfilm. Because as we've said many times, and this is as good as segue as any, I guess, that like, I don't know how much forethought. I would love to find out

the truth behind this maybe someday when the books are written. Like, Favro making the Mandalorian really set them on a certain path for what the TV strategy was going to be. And then this year is such an interesting moment of like folding in reworked movie projects like Obi-Wan. And then also seeing if they can chart a different path going forward. But I don't think there was a lot of thought into it, you know, at the time, which is what's led to some of the bumpiness in terms of what this property means on TV. You know what I mean? And so for Game of Thrones, thinking about it from the HBO perspective, do we just try to have a, another mothership with a big story in dragons that spans multiple seasons, or do we do a series

of smaller stories? Or do we do one big one and recurring small ones like Stephen Conrad, who did Patriot, is doing Dunkin Egg? Yeah. And, you know, that seems to be, at least just from what we understand of the preexisting material, a tonally, if not totally different swing than House of the Dragon. So, you know, you bring up, you bring up Obi-1, so we might as well get into that. Last episode went up yesterday on Disney Plus. concluded the six episode run. I think that there has been some suggestion from the cast, from Ewan McGregor specifically, that he would love to do it again.

But I'm not so sure that it's going to happen. It's interesting to watch this show and go back to the Vanity Fair article. Was it Vanity Fair recently that was sort of like a state of Star Wars piece? And Kathleen Kennedy spoke for it and was speaking. And she talked a little bit about solo and about this idea of these legacy characters that people hold very near and dear and how it's, really hard to basically like

redo that without having Harrison Ford without having Kerry Fisher without having Mark Hamill in those roles specifically and I think that they were kind of splitting the atom a little bit here because Ewan McGregor is still in his prime I think

and I think she specifically said he's exempt from that because they're not going to recast swing a lightsaber yes right you know and they're not going to recast that and obviously Alec goodness is no longer with us so we're not going to do anything with that. Although I wouldn't put it past them to be able to reanimate him in some holographic way.

So you have the situation where this show is kind of done, it's over with. And I think here's where I want to start. After this episode, I texted a few people that I know of varying degrees of relationships to Star Wars. And one thing came up a couple of times in conversations with people who I know are big fans of, not only Star Wars, but especially like prequels or animated series, a variety of folks. And I was kind of doing my like riot act complaining list of things that I didn't like about the last episode. And more than once, the response was, yeah, but that's Star Wars.

And I was like, oh. And they had examples. They were like, don't you remember in Jedi where it's like, there's this huge fight? And then they cut to the Ewox in the middle of the fight. And I was like, oh, yeah. remember that now. I wonder whether it's me. And when I say me, I mean capital M.E. Like, maybe I'm just hanging on to or imagining a version of this that actually doesn't exist. Maybe it's, and that version of it is like the Rogue One trailer, but is not actually,

there's no empirical evidence that this is ever what Star Wars was. And so I want to start from there just because I'm like, I don't know necessarily if I'm a reliable narrator when it comes to talking about this? Well, I think it's a healthy point to make. And I think it's a healthy perspective. And I think that one thing that definitely differentiates us from the type of fan that you're speaking to and that we're speaking about is that they have, I think, interrogated and or made peace with their relationship with this franchise.

You know, it is something that is present in their lives and they're grateful for its presence in their lives. And they can find things to like in that because they like. 10, 15 years younger than us, and the prequels are as important as the original films. Yeah. So I think that's definitely true. I think that we are approaching this with a potentially challenging mixture of impossible nostalgia, which is like with our, you know, counteraction figures, we think we could have done a better

final battle than what we saw on Disney Blues service last night. But also as adult of our age, cultural critics, you know, who kind of hope that, when given the time and perspective and resources available, something better could come of it. Like with, you know, and that's also very easy for us to say, because I tried to allude to this last week, and this has been the, you know, the sort of the chatter that I've heard, and that I can also, we can surmise from similar situations.

TV, if we always say this, it's not movies. In the analogy we used to make, you know, TV is to movies as magazines is to books. A movie, at least in the old days before they just became, more TV, you could tinker with and obsess over and, you know, and really try and perfect, TV has to come out on a schedule. And similar, that was with magazines. Like, we would do our best with a magazine and we'd have a big monthly closing and then

the magazine would be done and you'd do it again. And it's, and it's going to be different. And I think it's worth remembering that, that, yeah, with luxury of time, it's usually time because there's plenty of money at play here with these things. So all of that, I think, is valid. But I also would push back a little bit on whoever said that, that the, you know, this is just Star Wars because of something that happened in Jedi. I mean, when we talk about what we admire and loved and were transported by with Star Wars,

it's the first two movies. I definitely rocked with Jedi. I mean, that was the first one I was fully conscious of. And, like, there's a new Star Wars movie. I mean, I was six years old, but I was like, I went to see it. The first two are the good ones. I mean, they just are. And so when you talk about cutting away, which is maybe a great place to start here,

the final confrontation between Luke and Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back did not cut to a chase scene with a child in the middle of it. It didn't. And it's memorable for it, you know, because there was emotion and stakes and reveals and surprises.

Do they not cut to the Ewarks in that? That's the third movie. Oh. I'm talking about an empire. You're going to be empire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that was where you and I were, there are plenty of, look, we could go down a rabbit hole of like, what, what was Riva doing? What was her plan? How did she get there? All of that stuff. And that doesn't seem that productive. I think that. Yeah, there are certain things that, like, I actually have learned where it's just like,

now we've gotten, like, however many of the new trilogy that JJ and Ryan Johnson did, we've gotten several shows, people just can hop planets. And like, I'm no longer like, how did Ewan McGregor get off the surface of one planet to the surface of Tatouin right at the moment when Revo was coming out of the desert kind of thing. Like, it is what it is. Into the right place. Because if I was flying to another planet and I needed to land in Manhattan, I would one million percent land in Kathmandu.

You know what I mean? He'd be like, guys, which way to Shake Shack? You know, like, it just, it's a planet. Yeah. The thing that really got me was this was a series that essentially, I mean, was building towards one more, we'll get one more Obi-1, Darth Vader, fight. And that was one piece of unfinished business in that, in the original Star Wars movie,

when they do fight, I believe Darth Vader's like the last time we fought, like, you got the better of me. Okay. So now we're going to see that finally. And we get there. And what was frustrating about it was twofold. And it was exactly those two folds were the two things that I think hamstrung the entire series. One, outcome is not in doubt. So what are the stakes of watching these two guys fight other than it's a cool choreograph fight, which, you know, your mileage may vary on whether it was cool or not. The second, it's a TV show, not a movie. So right when it starts to get good,

it cuts to Riva chasing a little boy who we know is also going to be fine running through the desert. And that's TV logic, man. And it doesn't feel epic because of it. Again, it makes things feel small, which feels like it's the wrong box to have put this out.

So this is, I kind of, I don't want to, like, labor like, how did she do this and how did he do that? And why did he say it this way? And what's up with Leah? I do think that there's something really interesting in what you just identify there, which is those two threads. And honestly, you know,

we know that Obi-1 doesn't kill Anakin again. And then everything that happens afterwards happens because Darth Vader is doing whatever he's doing. So there's like actually a lack of tension in both of those threads. I think it's easy to be like, why are you guys hung up on,

if I was listening, I would be like, why are you guys so hung up on knowing already what happens to these people? like why does that take away from what you're watching? I think part of their issue is that the show itself is entirely about Riva running after this kid. If we had some other kind of like experience with her character, if we had some other kind of, if she was given anything else to do other than pursuit, I think it would be at least more interesting.

But if that's the sole purpose for her character, if every time she's in any scene and it's like, what does she want? It's like she wants revenge against Darth Vader. Well, she doesn't get it. I know that. You know? And so what then is like saving it to the very last second of this series for her to be like, gosh, this was kind of fruitless, wasn't it?

Maybe I was wrong to be like seeking out this kind of justice or whatever. It's like that, yeah, like that I know. I could have told you that like six hours ago. I don't want to, yeah, I want to be careful because I don't want to make this about the world we live in. And why is this the world we live in? Because the world we live in demands and expects

creators to find inspiring story nuggets in the folds of the couch left behind by previous generations. The best case scenario for that still is Rogue One. And that was what I was going to say is that the concept of Rogue One being

there is a throwaway line in the movies. And somebody heard that and was like, what was that about? And even though we know they don't make it. Lots of people died getting these plans.

You know, like whatever the line is that is the setup for Rogue One, it's not about like, well, we know what happens to Cassie and Andor. Now, we may have these same complaints about Andor, I have a feeling we won't just because of the way it's being geared and who wrote it and who's in it and stuff like that.

But like, it wasn't necessarily, it's not that their fate is determined, which we do know. But all the stuff that happens up until then, and the way the story is told, is not. Not only that, Tony Gilroy created some pretty cool, memorable characters who in an efficient, cinematic way, we were introduced to, understood, liked, cared for, and then felt sad for, felt empathy for. They were fully, fully alive. and their individual micro stakes worked in concert with the macro stakes of we have to get the Death Star, we have to figure all this out, right?

This series and a lot of this genre of entertainment that I think almost needs its own title, you know, because it's not for everyone. It is not going to break ground. It is going to be mildly satisfying for people who are looking to be mildly satisfied, which, again, if you found things to enjoy in this show more than we did, that is awesome. We are pro pleasure in your television, wherever you may find it. But my experience watching it really did feel like creatively it had its arms tied behind its back because the micro stakes were inevitably unimportant next to Skywalker's.

Right. So Riva's journey, whatever it could have been, or Kumile's character or Ice Cube Jr's character, like they're in service of the Skywalker story. So their own screen time in real estate and stakes, it's never going to matter in the face of the bigger story. Wade is like, tell me about it, brother. For real. Although somehow he seemed to matter more than everybody else. The second piece of it is the macro stakes are already stepped on because nothing new happened

other than, I wonder what Darth Vader was referring to in that fight. Oh, they had another fight. You know what I mean? There actually wasn't wiggle room to surprise us that didn't just step on like turning Luke and Leia into Muppet babies who are always their brave, sassy selves who seem to like when Luke's like, my whole life's been boring, except the time a Jedi hunter chased you into the desert with a lightsaber and your adopted parents turned into American sniper?

I'm like, where's the... Do you guys get your memories wiped in season two of movie one? Other than that? And then I think the most upsetting thing about all of it is that Obi-Wan is revealed to be not a character, you know, which is a bummer. It's his show. He's the star of it.

But what was his journey? What did we learn about him? What was his arc? other than he is a guy who, at the end of going off world and falling in, you know, paternal love with a sassy nine-year-old, he's like, the world needs leaders now. The world is in trouble. Like, great, what are you going to do, Obi-Wan Kenobi? I'm going to retire for the rest of my life.

That's what you're going to do? Now, I guess maybe it's not. He can talk to Ghost Liam Neeson with his fake beard or maybe that's where season two comes in where he becomes more, even more interesting. Yeah. But it's a struggle. And so all of this is to say, I don't know if we're wrong to be looking at this through the lens of what television or visual storytelling can do. I think we are veering out of the known galaxy in terms of what these things are and what's to be expected of them. But it's hard not to think about the line, the most memorable line in Ryan Johnson's The Last Jedi, which is, you know, you have to kill the past and wondering if Lucasfilm is going to.

to digitally retcon that line away, like they digitally retcon Han shooting first. Sure. Because this stuff, at least so far, is the opposite of that. Now, I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it was interesting and provocative that there was a movie that said you have to do that. And then... I don't think that that movie is being treated as, like, canonical creative advice. Do you?

Yeah. I don't, and I couldn't help think about it for that reason. It was, it's interesting. I mean, so not to go back to, you know, I don't want to make this podcast at Thomas Friedman column, or at least any more than it actually is, but like, you know, in the sense that like, I was in a taxi cabin, Mumbai, India,

and my driver said, that George Bush, he understands tariffs. Yeah. But you talk to Star Wars fans, so. I'm Star Wars fan. But you know what I mean? I thought I was. Yeah. Yeah.

But what do people, how do they talk about the show? Like, this is, this gave me some things to think about for a couple weeks. There's a variety of responses. I mean, I think it increasingly feels like a little bit of a liability to have not watched the animated series. In terms of like your feel for like where things are going and what's happening and who are these characters and what's, why is this meaningful to people? It's because it's like either executing something that's alluded to in the animated series or maybe even in some cases is in the animated series. Also, Obi-Wan and Anakin are like are more fully left-off people in the series, right? Yeah.

Right. And I do think that there is been, like, I had a conversation with our buddy Jason Gallagher yesterday. And it was just basically about like whether or not these things are made for children. You know? And he and I was just like, I don't, when I was getting into it in the 80s, it was because it felt just over my head. Like I was young, but Luke was like a late teenager or a teenager. and he was going into this world of adulthood and adult consequences and falling in love and fighting and losing people and finding out who his father was

and all this like shit. And I was like it wasn't like childlike. I never found it to be like this idea that it was somehow like about both kids and also kids in danger all the time was not necessarily like what I thought like that it was about. but I think increasingly, and I do think this is where the business side of it does come in a little bit, is like, it might be closer to children's programming than I thought. You know what I mean? And I usually don't go for that. You know, so that that's, that was something that was a little not sobering, but like I was like, yeah, you know what? Like, I don't have kids. I don't watch this with a kid. I didn't really love when kids came into Star Wars and the prequels. It's nothing against children. I just, it's not really what I'm looking for when I'm like, watching these things. And also, like, it doesn't seem increasingly, whether it's bending towards

Dave Faloni or bending towards, like, this huge treasure trove of stories that they have on their hands and, like, the animated series are essentially, like, what comics are to the Marvel movies, where they can kind of pick and choose and be like, okay, let's do Secret Wars, let's do this. They can go and be, like, Thron and Ezra and all these people who I'm like, I don't know who that is. And if you're, if you don't know who they are, the show has that much more to do to kind of make them compelling characters, but if there's a big enough base of people who are like, I loved Clone Wars and I loved these

shows, then it's basically like you're realizing like they're kind of like you're just only animating what was animated for them in the first place, right? Yeah, and you're ending up in a place that is challenging for any medium. I mean, it's why people,

a lot of people, walk away from comics at a certain point, from reading comics. Not because the ideas or the art or the characters get less cool, but because the baggage becomes too much. To simultaneously know everything and be surprised is really a challenge, you know, to constantly be pushing the envelope and change nothing. And that is where we are with Star Wars and Marvel stuff.

And specifically, you know, I think we got to, we don't have to kill the past. But I think we do need to walk away from the old guys. And I said this as two old guys. Because I think the two things that have, you know, put a little, giving us pause, the Boba Fett stuff. And Obi-Wan. Like, these are old characters, played by older men. And servicing them feels backwards, you know, because I think what worked so well about

the first season, two seasons of Mandalorian was it felt a little fresh in the, you know, the quasi-new characters, a kind of Boba-Fet and a kind of Yoda. So it's a little bit, it's not that radical. But there was a sense of wonder in the world, you know. I think those shows are for kids in the best way. Like they're PG-10. They're not really even PG-13. And there's something good about that, you know.

But the more history and the older the characters get and the more baggage and trauma they've gone through, like it becomes very hard to have a Darth Vader show that's PG. Yeah, yeah, that's good point. And so you end up kind of satisfying, I don't know, I don't want to say satisfying no one, because people were satisfied. but you end up in this unsatisfying place where they're chasing the path which isn't the Jedi on their Star Destroyer

and to destroy them and Obi-Wan's like, don't worry, gang, they won't destroy you if I leave and then they don't destroy them because it's a PG show. Yeah, but...

And then he doesn't destroy Anakin even though he was just like, I could just like end this all right now. Like this you just told me he's not Anakin, he's been Darth Vader and not to blame himself that he did this and he's all busted up

and Obi-1's like, peace. Later. Yeah. How'd this play out 10 years ago. No props. Everything's fine. It is, it's hot.

Shout out to everybody on Alderan. I'll see you guys later. You know what? You know the way I want to end this? Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. Obi-Wan's the monster. People have been doing that.

They've been like, isn't this like going back in time to kill baby Hitler? Like, you just got to pull the plug at some point. Yes, you do. Jeez, Louise. Yeah, I, uh, I, uh, you really, I was about to say something positive. You threw me off. I guess what I want to say is, as frustrated as you and I have been sometimes with the storytelling decisions

and the sort of, knowing that there's always going to be more for us to cover. Part of me is like, I appreciate watching a almost billion dollar learning curve happen in real time. You know what I mean? Like, the worst thing that could happen from Obi-Wan would be like, let's just run it back. Yeah.

I would hope that there's some thought into what this means, who was for, what they can do, and then we will see that reflected in the next, maybe not, and or, which is already, you know, mostly in the can, I guess, but although you never know with these things, but like the Acolyte, which is coming next year or whatever else is beyond that. Skelton crew, yeah. It's interesting, but I can't say it was satisfying. You want to talk about the bear before we get into my conversation with Jeremy?

Oh, my God, I sure do. So the entire season's up now. It comes from Christopher Storer, who directed a bunch of episodes of Rami, worked as a producer on 8th grade, the Boberna movie. His sister, correct? Yeah, Courtney. Courtney Storer is the head chef, right, at John Vinnie's in Los Angeles. And she is one of the consultants on this show as well as Maddie Matheson. And by the way, friend of the pod, Hero Marai is an executive producer. He's an executive producer. So I'm just sort of throwing out some of the stakeholders here. It's a show about a guide played by Jeremy Allen White, named Carmi, who comes back to Chicago

after some time at Michelin Star restaurants like Noma and French Laundry and he comes back to Chicago to take over his late brother's beef sandwich restaurant and there's already like a cast of characters in play there

one played by Evan Moss Backrack is this guy Richie who is basically right out of like basically mean streets he is doing like one of the best like 70s Kitell guys just hanging out in a in a kitchen. It's a great ensemble of people working in this kitchen and the kitchen feels like a kitchen from my whatever limited experience

I have from seeing how restaurants of all shapes and sizes work, the intensity, the language, the jargon, the level of immersion you get from this show is, I think, unprecedented in terms of it being like on screen. And it is fucking intense. I think I made this. joke to Jeremy Allen White later in our conversation that it was like uncut food instead of uncut gems. And the first few episodes of this show are, they're like really getting after it. Like it's close-ups, insert shots, constant camera movement, really fast cutting, cuts to clocks ticking. Like it really creates the tension, the sense of pressure that these guys are all working under when they're making even just a lunch service for working people coming off the street to get a

sandwich. Basically, the, um, sort of what is this show about? It's about Karm trying to elevate the menu with the help of a new sous chef, Sydney of this traditional beef restaurant into something we don't know what yet. We don't, you know, you don't know what he wants out of this. I think that's a lot of the show is about him kind of looking inside of himself and asking himself like, what, what is my relationship to food? What is my relationship to my family? What is my relationship to my late brother? and what kind of world do I want to, like, create? And it's using this kitchen as, like, a microcosm for, and I think a lot of people see kitchens as a microcosm for the world is, like,

what's the way that we should treat one another? What do we want to leave behind? What feeling do we want to give people when they interact with our food or interact with us? And it's a beautiful fucking show. It's super intense. It can get dark. It can get edgy.

But it's like, I just felt like a huge heart in this show. huge heart and it felt really, really, really lived in and ultimately very, very sweet. And I watched the entire season already. The entire season is up. I think once people start, they're not going to stop. Andy, what did you think of the episodes that you've seen so far? I've seen six, just because I'm sort of coursing it out because I love it so much and hopefully there'll be more, but at least not for a year.

And to your point earlier, because I should just tell people, we're not spoiling it right now, but I think you and Jeremy spoiled it a little bit. You wouldn't think a show like this could be spoiled, but there's some cameos, there's some surprises. I would stay unspoiled if you could and just enjoy it as it happens. Yeah, I think maybe Monday or whatever, we could talk a little bit more about it in depth. I love this show. It's my favorite new show of the year. It's, you know, I'm not thinking about top 10 lists, but it's on it.

And I don't even know what number it's going to be at. There are three main reasons why I love the show, and you touched on aspects of all of them. I just want to run through it. One, you guys know I love food content. I love food TV. I love top chef. I like food and restaurants and cooking in my life. And I know that like the music industry, another thing that has been a part of my actual life and that I love, it's a tough sell on scripted TV because of the accuracy problem. You know, where do you, if it's phony, it's ruined, you know, and it's very, very hard to get it right. Again, I have never worked in kitchens, whether they be three star or a local sandwich shack, but I watch a, I consume a lot of, of content about these places. And for my experience, this show nails it and does it in a way that doesn't make it seem show offy. It actually is such a brilliant conceit because Karmie is returning with these three-star tendencies, you know, how you conduct yourself in the kitchen and your

cleanliness and your order and how you speak to each other. And everyone in this place is like, what are you talking about? So he educates us and them at the same time, which is a very smart can see. I love the way food is in this show. I think it's just brilliantly done. Two, you guys know this too. I love TV that does the most old-fashioned type of TV, which is take you to a place you've never been and make you fall in love with every single person there and everything about it. And this show is deeply, purely unadulterated Chicago. They shot there. It's real Chicago. It's not like, you know, what's it, the Miracle Mile or whatever? It's not like North Shore. This is like, these are White Sox fans. These are people who have lived in a place.

that is one of the most that places in the country, let alone maybe in the world. And I love that about it. And I love every single person on the show and would, you know, fight for them, even though I've only spent six half hours in their company. Which leads into the third point, which is when this show was announced, and it kind of flew under the radar, right? But it's like, okay, FX is making a comedy set in the restaurant world, interested, a hero's involved. And it says, Maddie Matheson is a consultant. And then at Jeremy Allen White, who's an actor who I really think is excellent on Shameless, was really good on Homecoming. He's so good on.

But he's not like famous, right? I'm like, oh, what is this? Then the cast is filled out with like people like Evan Moss Bachrack, who people, you know, he's really good. He's good on girls. He's good in everything he's in. But these are not famous people. You're like, which direction is this going in? And the direction it went in was, we're going to make the best fucking version of this show, and we're going to make stars.

We're going to make you learn these people. names and Google them and love them. I love it when that happens. And it's increasingly rare, right? I mean, we spent the top half of the show talking about Game of Thrones and Star Wars and all the famous people that are joining those worlds. Like, this is not that. This is creating something out of scratch that I just adore.

So you mentioned that the young chef who comes to the kitchen is A. A. O Adibiri, yeah. Edibiri, who's a young comedian and she does a voice on Big Mouth. She's awesome. She's completely this person. She's incredible. She is funny, and she's a really good actor, and you're psyched to see her, and now I want to see her in everything that she does. There's a character who bakes the bread for the sandwiches named Marcus, who over the course

of the season kind of falls in love with a Noma fermentation book and wants to make perfect desserts, and he's played by an actor named Lionel Boyce, who now, because I immediately Googled him, because I want to be best friends with him, he's like part of Tyler the Creator's squad and has worked with him on comedy things and has other projects set up everywhere. he's awesome and he's awesome because I'm discovering him. You know, that's part of the joy of a show like this. And, Chris, you already said it, but like, Evan Moss Packrax performance is my favorite TV performance of the year, maybe.

And it's, this is a show about food, but that's also a television show about hunger. I don't know this guy, right? He's exactly our age. He's a working actor in New York. Everybody who's also an actor knows him and talks about him. But the feeling I get from watching the show is that he's been. sitting patiently while everyone else ate for years. And now he's like, it's my turn at the buffet table and I'm going to go.

And he has a moment in the second episode where he literally turns on a dime from being the most ludicrous, like yelling Attica, but, you know, about sandwiches version of a character into something completely unexpected and emotional. I mean, it is jaw-dropping performance, right? And it's just like just a part of this larger menu. The show rules. It's also like the best possible example of like what you can do in 30 minutes in eight episodes because no two episodes are exactly alike.

And they can do broad comedy. They can do heartbreaking tragedy. They can do romantic, wistful nostalgia. They can do essentially like a thriller, but around a kitchen. You know, they can do anything that they want with this show. And I can't wait for people to see it. I really hope that they keep making it because I think it could go in a bunch of different directions. Can I also just say I love, for many reasons, a showrunner who I think is also the music supervisor.

And I think that Chris Storer is that. And there are needle drops in the show that are so chosen, you know, and as in not suggested by someone who works at the studio or does the licensing. thing. Like there's a breeder's needle drop that caused me to slightly elevate from the floor. There is a reclamation project of an REM song from their last record, collapse into now, that just made my day and filled me with joy. It's someone who's thinking about this stuff, not just thinking about the way the beef is going to cook and look. It's just how the whole thing is going to feel. This show's so well directed, too. I don't know. We're raving, but it makes me happy that this exists. It makes me really happy.

Yeah, Joanna Callow and Christopher Store, I think, did the whole season directing. Yes, as co-show runners and then they toggled off the direction. So they did an amazing job. This is one of my favorite shows of the year. We say that. It seems like we say that every week. It's been a good year, right? Yeah.

Like, we get to go on Monday. We can talk about boys, old man, episode three, and we can go more in-depth with the bear. And those are three of my favorite shows of the year. And they've all come out within the last, like, three weeks. Also, this has reminded me that there's a new iron. Chef show and on Netflix and I got to check it out. We got to talk about that. I, you know what? I'm kind of like a noob with Iron Chef. Oh, get ready. I'm ready to talk you through it. Okay. We'll be back. We'll talk about the bear. We'll talk about the old man. We'll talk about

boys. We'll talk about Iron Chef. We'll talk about whatever you want on Monday. Thank you to Kai McMuller for producing. We're going to get into my interview with Jeremy Allen White, the star of the bear. Just so you guys know, as that conversation progresses, Jeremy and I do talk about some of the spoilery aspects of the show. It's more about where his character goes, some of the things that happen towards the end of the season.

I would love it if you listen to it. If you want, put a pin in it, come back, listen to it after you've watched a few more episodes. I would say the most helpful thing would probably be to just watch the season and then check out the interview. But you can listen about the first 10 minutes or so.

And it's a pretty good introduction to the show. And it's really cool to hear about Jeremy's prep and why he did this show and everything else. So thanks for listening, and we'll be back on Monday. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day,

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Jeremy, thank you so much for joining me, man. I wanted to ask you first off about the bear. Where were you at as an actor when this script comes to you and this idea comes to you and you're like, this is the next thing I want to do? And what was it about this project specifically that made that decision happen? Yeah. I mean, I got really lucky.

You know, we finished the last season of Shameless just over a year ago now, I guess. And so I've been thinking a long time about, like, do I want to jump into a show? Well, I have the option, even the opportunity to jump right into a show, like right after, Do I want to stay away from TV for a little bit and kind of try to do some other stuff? I was really kind of uncertain about where I would end up. And I got really lucky. I did this movie a couple of years ago called The Rental. And Chris Storer, who's the creator, co-show runner, co-director on The Bear, produced The Rental.

And so I got to meet him, spent some time with him during that production. We really enjoyed one another. I think he has really great taste. I liked his work with Rami. and his work as a producer. And I got lucky. I mean, I don't think we were even done filming season 11 of Shameless yet.

And I kind of got into like early talks with Chris. He sent me the script, which I was just really, I was really struck by. I was struck by Karmie. I was really interested in the culinary world and what makes these guys, these like chefs at that level really tick.

And I, my heart really brought. for Karmie, I think like he's like, he's a young man and his identity is so wrapped up in being a chef and being successful. He's so determined immediately. And I thought it was really interesting to play a character where it really feels life and death all the time for him. I think if he didn't have this thing, if he didn't have restaurants, if he if he wasn't a chef, I don't know what he would do with himself. And so I think that was like an exciting like in to to get started on on the character, you know. The thing I love the most about about this show, but also like I think I'm attracted to it in a lot of movies and shows that I love is the level of immersion and how it just kind of like

throws you into the deep end and it's like you may not know what brigade is or what expo is, but you guys never. What these relationships are at the beginning. And all I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and you guys never pumped the brakes to say, you know, because it's like that Sydney character could be, it could be her first day on the job and she could be, she's the audience avatar and she's learning what these things are. But I love that it's not like that. As an actor, is there something, do you get like a special juice when you get to kind of fully lose yourself in the occupation and world of the character like that? Totally. I mean, that was another part that was really exciting about this. I've picked up things here or there, I guess, for other roles, but not even really. And certainly nowhere close to kind of like learning the skill of cooking. I spent a lot of time in culinary school when I got the part. I spent a lot of time in some like really wonderful restaurants with some incredibly talented chefs, not only getting to know them, asking them questions, but like performing with them and cooking with them. And so, yeah, it was. It was a really fun way to get to know a character by learning a skill and going through these steps that you know they had also gone through. I had never had an opportunity like that before. And I'm so appreciative of like the production was immediately so supportive.

Like as much as I wanted to do and I wanted to do a lot, they made it happen. And that was, yeah, very exciting. As like a diner, were you ever like a big like what's going on back there, guy? Or was this a whole new world for you? it was pretty much a whole new world. I mean, like, I think chefs and back of house, like in recent years, maybe the past 10 years, like they have become kind of pop culture icons. So I do, I had an understanding, I think, as everybody does, of like, like, I knew about Anthony Bourdain.

I loved his show. I'd read some of his book. But then I read, like, Marco Pierre White's book. And I was really trying to learn a lot more. And myself, I had no experience. Like, I like to go out to a good meal. I had some places that I enjoyed, but I didn't understand really the inner workings of a kitchen. I also didn't understand the incredible sacrifice that cooks and chefs make in order to become really excellent in their field.

I'm pretty struck by the similarities between restaurant cooking and acting, not necessarily, or rather like production because they both eventually wind up with giving a consumer something that gives them pleasure. But so much shit happens before that. And the like the experience of getting to see how the sausage is made. I mean, you, I'm sure like you work 12, 14 hour days. Like there's a lot of heavy equipment moving around. There's a lot of tension.

There's a lot of emotions. Were you struck to by like, oh man, this is a lot like what I already do in some ways? Yes, in some ways, like almost immediately. Yes. Like, I think you nailed it. It's, it's, it's, the tensions run incredibly high. Um, like as an example, you know, let's say you have an hour, just like that magic hour shot.

Everybody's really rushing. The day's already behind. We're cutting scenes to try and like get to this moment. Like that tension can certainly be there on sets. And beyond that tension, it's also like, like hopefully on a film set and hopefully the staff of a restaurant, they all have a goal as a group that they want to accomplish, right? There is this one thing that they go, if we can all do our jobs the best that we possibly can, then we can make this service for the consumer

as good as possible. So I think it's also like, it was interesting, like just depending on one another really picking up where others left off. That was always, that was familiar to me having worked on sets for a long time because it's similar. Like the camaraderie is similar, certainly in the back of house to sets. Yeah. I mean, then you get into the visual aspect of this show, which I think people will sort of be struck by this within five seconds of watching it, where those early episodes, those first two especially, it's like uncut gems, basically. The camera is like pushed up so close. I think there's like more insert shots in like those first two episodes that you get in like,

you get it's like a fincher amount of insert shots of like knife work, food, everything. A clock, like that like zoom on the clock I thought was so cool throughout the first episode especially. Can you tell me a little bit about working within that visual palette? Like is it different than like your usual like, oh, Master 1-1, like that kind of thing? Do you know Christopher's saying to you, like, this is how it's going to feel. This is what I want you to kind of the part you need to play to make the visual aspect of this work. Yeah, I mean, I learned a lot. I hadn't really worked in that way before.

And I had to kind of learn very quickly. And also like trust our DP and Chris very quickly because, yes, we did all these inserts, all these closeups. We do a lot of long takes without any coverage. And so, you know, for an actor, you know, hopefully every take is excellent. You're performing at your best. But I think if you cover a scene sort of traditionally, you know that a really great editor can maybe like piece something together and make you look better than maybe you were on the day.

So there was like a lot of pressure to show up and be ready and perform right away because of the way that the show was shot. And we also shot incredibly quickly. I think we shot the pilot in six days. We shot after we went to series, the next seven episodes, and maybe even a little less than two months. So it was like the pace was intense. And I think I just had to let go and trust Chris and Joanna and our wonderful DPs that they were getting everything they needed,

that the story all connected and that we were giving them the performance that was necessary. or, you know. Did you find, though, that, like, you get to, like, act in a different way, though? We're, like, you know, because there's a lot of, like, shots where it's, like, you're maybe rolling your eyes or looking up at something, but, like, maybe someone else is the kind of, like, key of the shot or the key of the scene. Yeah. Yeah, the focal point.

Like, it's, it's, and then, you know, and later in the season, uh, there is a, a one or episode that is essentially, like, I can't imagine how that was like to orchestrate, but is a piece of theater in and of itself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I grew up studying theater. I haven't done a lot of theater, but that's how I learned. And like you find comfort in, it's like the most vulnerable, but once you can kind of like get over that hurdle and fear,

it's kind of the most fun you can possibly have as an actor because someone could be watching you at all times. And so for me, it's just it's easier to get lost in the story, shooting scenes that way. And then certainly, yeah, in episode seven where we do it in one take, that was the most fun. I think, you know, we shot it like five times

just in one morning. It took us about 27 minutes to shoot. So we would just shoot it in 27 minutes. Then there was like a pretty extensive, like reset, obviously. Yeah, I would imagine. Crops and stuff like that. But not that like half an hour maybe.

So we were able to shoot them all really, really quickly. And it was so fun because your adrenaline is so high. The room for error is so low. And I think like shooting that episode that way, it lent itself to the final product because we're anxious as the actors that any mistake could not only ruin my take, but maybe that was Io's best tape. Maybe that was Eben's best take. Maybe that was Lionel's best take. Like there's so much pressure. And I think in that episode, there's so much pressure for the characters as well. So I think, I think it worked really well. And it made sense to shoot that episode that way. Yeah, you can, I mean, because I think that there are lots of things you can do to just kind of be like, it's not,

it's not like direct or bullshit, but it's like, oh, like this is, what a cool shot. Like, we did this. And it's just like, yeah, without a reason. But what does that mean for the story? Yeah. And this is like a breaking point for a bunch of the characters. You mentioned Iowa. I love the relationship that you guys have over the course of the season. She's amazing. Yeah. And the sort of like, it's spoken a little bit, but Karm and Sydney both agree that there is a better way to do this out there. Like they know because they've been through these sort of traumatic kitchen experiences and have maybe been cast out of the cooking world because of their resistance to that at times.

That's such an awesome plot line to watch go through it. because it's almost like watching the two of them fall short of their ideals is kind of heartbreaking. And it's like they don't have anybody else to blame but each other. But like even they can't make this place the kitchen of their dreams. Did you talk a lot with Iowa about that as actors? And what was the conversation like with Christopher about that plot line? Yeah. I mean, I think what we would speak about is how, you know, you have, you have Karmie who's like,

I'll say a poor communicator, right? He's not great with his words. He's not great communicating how he's feeling or what he wants even necessarily. And then you have Sidney, who's almost like an over communicator. Like she gives so much. And I think at times for Karmie, it could be overwhelming. So we talk a lot about kind of like the comedy in that. Maybe not like knee-slapping comedy, but like just having two people like that talk to one

another and really not being able to connect how that could be kind of funny. And then, yeah, I mean, I think like ego is also such a, like, it's something we have to talk about when talking about Carmi and Sydney for both of them, but more especially, I think, for, for Carmi. You know, he does feel such a ownership, obviously, and a responsibility to this restaurant. And you realize as the show goes on, you know, obviously it's pretty easy to see that it's, there's a bit of a metaphor if he can fix this restaurant. Maybe he can fix whatever went wrong with his brother. And so I think while he needs Sydney's help and at times he's really asking her for that help, it's also very difficult for him to to accept it because he's territorial and he wants it to be to be his so much. And he feels like it's his work that he has to do. So I think like that just makes. for good drama and tension when somebody like is asking for help even like screaming for help but is also incapable of accepting it you know uh you also a few minutes ago mentioned

Evan who is basically like the Molotov cocktail on this show and and is walking in and I always like really get excited when he first enters an episode because he has so many different ways of greeting people usually really rudely but like what's up fucking replicants and stuff like that Yeah, yeah. Was there improv going on at all? Or was that all like this guy, Richie, is like this? I mean, because I would wonder whether, with the way you guys were shooting,

whether that was encouraged to kind of just get loose and be in character and start talking shit to each other. For sure. Yeah. I mean, the writing is really excellent, and you don't really need to do anything with it. I never really did anything with it, unless Eben was, like, really challenging me sometimes. I'd throw stuff out.

But, yeah, Eben, Eben is, like, really, really excellent with improvisation. And it was like overwhelming sometimes to act with them because sometimes and he knows this too, but sometimes it would almost like take over the scene. And, you know, I would be like, is this what the scene's about?

Like he's just, he's so good at it. He like has to do it. But he also, you know, he would throw out some of his best lines that really got everybody like rolling on the floor like during rehearsal when cameras weren't rolling. so that Eben could see if it suited it before he used it in a take.

So he was just like really loose and really playful the whole time. And I think that's nice because, you know, Karmie is sort of the opposite. He's like so tightly wound. I think it's nice to see those two characters together and play off one another. So I want to ask you a couple of questions that relate to sort of the end of the season. So for folks when they're listening to this interview, it'll go up when the season goes up.

I imagine they're going to watch it in a weekend because it's something that when you start watching it, you don't want to stop. But Karmie obviously has this big speech at an Al-Anon meeting that I was really struck by because the whole season you're kind of wondering, it's not like whether this guy is in touch with his emotions or articulate. But I imagine doing a big long monologue like that for a guy who's been kind of suppressing a lot of this stuff.

for most of the time we're with him. It's complicated because it's like, what, how, like, basically how in touch with himself is he? Like, how articulate is he about all of these things and what's he learning from his sister and from Alonon? Can you tell me a little bit about shooting that scene and what you were kind of, how you approached it because I thought it was like a beautiful, beautiful piece of acting,

but also, like, really striking because it's like this turn from him. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it was important to me, to make it seem like Karmie was making a lot of these discoveries, like, in the moment. And there was this other scene that he has with his sister Sugar, I think it was in the prior episode, where he's kind of talking about, like, communication and the idea of being vulnerable.

And I think what I wanted to come across was, like, you know, I don't have experiences in Al-Anon rooms or anything like that. but I just I had to imagine what a vulnerable position, especially your first time really speaking in one. It's clear he's been going to these meetings, but he's just been too afraid to speak. And so I think what I wanted that scene to be was him sort of like letting his guard down,

becoming sort of vulnerable for the first time. And then just by talking, like making these, making these discoveries about himself by kind of just like telling his story, which I don't think he's ever really done before. Like everybody has their own kind of like narrative in their head of like what their life is and what it's been like. But if you don't vocalize it, I think it can get pretty confusing. And so I think like it was so wonderfully written and like such a really like exciting moment as an actor to approach because I think it's the first time he's putting it into words and he's really able to be so vulnerable

and at the same time make discoveries about himself. Yeah, I mean, the entire time there's also like the kind of subtext of Karmie is essentially cooking Mike's food and he's like tweaking it and tweaking it and tweaking it and then finally is able to kind of tear down the menu at the end. I have to ask you guys, or if you guys knew that you were like hitting the Bernthal stock at the absolute right moment in popular culture history where like I just feel like

that he's just on such a heater right now and it was just when he, when you hear his voice in that first introduction of it you're just like oh my God birth all is Mike. Yes, dude, he's like have you seen we own this city at all yet?

I guess that's why I'm asking the... I haven't watched it yet but I'm really excited obviously I'm such a big fan of all those writers, filmmakers. But yeah, he's like, first of all,

so lovely just as a guy. Like, it's a very hard thing to do to, like, pop onto a show for a scene, really. And then, like, really take over that scene.

And he just came, he was, like, so incredibly, like, gracious and humble. And then beyond that, he's obviously, like, I mean, he's one of the best actors. His, like, his charisma is really unmatched.

And he's like, you know, he's just got that thing. Like, he's a movie. He's like the real deal, you know. And we were so lucky to have him do it. And it was like, it was kind of a favor. I mean, he, like, obviously read the scripts and enjoyed it. And I think he was, like, happy to be there. But, but Eben was on the Punisher for a long time.

So him and Evan were pretty good friends. And I think Evan just sent the script and was like, hey, man, do you have time to do this? And we shot it on a weekend in L.A. He had to be up the next morning because he was shooting American Gigolo. Like the next morning, he had like a 6 a.m. crew call. So we shot it on a Sunday. It was just really kind of him. And he delivered fully.

Because it's like Mike kind of looms over the show. For sure. He's a ghost. Yeah. But it's amazing in that scene. like there's another version of this that's a that's mike story and like that you can just see richie and carm and sugar just in love with this guy yeah and it makes the entire like pain of everything that they're going through it like clicks all of a sudden he's not just this abstraction

totally and it was like a weird thing to do for me too because like you know I've been thinking about Michael for so long not being able to like attach a face to him really but I really had to like create Michael for Carmi. So it's like it's a weird thing. Like, you know, I mean, I'm such a huge fan. So I was so happy to hear it. But it's just a weird thing to be like imagining someone for so long. And they're like, it's John Bernthal.

He's going to be there. But yeah, he's magic. I don't know what else to say about it. But, but yeah, we were so lucky to have him. I think the scene really worked. And also like really magic that just like, there's just, this brief moment where he kind of turns over his shoulder and looks at me and I look at him and like

it just it worked really well. My last question is has doing this show changed going to restaurants for you? Like when you go now. Yeah. Like a thousand percent. I'm kind of a jerk in restaurants now. Are you really? Yeah. I mean never to like staff or anything like that. But yeah, like I just I know how things, I know how things work a little bit more. And I've worked in some really high level environments now. And I just like, I have so much respect and appreciation for chefs and when things are done incredibly well. That yeah, I just, you know, and maybe it's like a little bit of like, Karmie brushing off on me. And it's like whatever, like his ego and my ego have become like, uh, same or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I wonder if you can you tell when they're having a bad night? Can you be like, oh man? Like I can almost sense like this, there's something going on. Yes. Yeah, for sure. And that happens all the time. Like, you know, I worked at a really excellent restaurant. I'm not going to name the restaurant and I'm not going to even say what city it was in.

But shit happens. Like people show up and they're burnt out. Like I was at this one restaurant and this guy was kind of all night. was clipping next to him and he was having an issue with his peripheral vision due to like anxiety and he'd been dealing with it for a while and he just had to leave he like left service and there's only like three or four cooks back there so it messes everything up and then like you know a dishwasher can show up wasted that messes up their night now somebody's got to stay later which means they're going to be there the next day with like three hours of sleep instead of six hours of sleep you know

everybody's got to show up. Everybody's got to be on top of their game. And when one thing kind of falls apart, it's hard for everybody else to pick up the pieces. Well, I mean, if the acting thing doesn't work out, you should do restaurant rescue. You should start your own reality show. Dude.

Yeah. I'm into it. I'm into it. I mean, I'm such a fan of these chefs and cooks that I've spent time with. And it's definitely a skill I've learned, and I want to keep honing. whether we get to continue with the show or not, I enjoy it for sure. Well, I really hope you do, because it's just an amazing, amazing show, man.

Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Thank you, man. So nice talking to you.