The Watch - ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ and the Streaming Service Redraft

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ and this era of creation that Martin Scorsese is in (1:00). Then they do a streaming service redraft, placing shows on different streaming services where they think they would have performed better (28:56). They talk about ‘Daisy Jones & the Six,’ ‘Jury Duty,’ and more (43:17). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he found the wolf in the picture. It's Andy Greenwald! Woo! Good morning.

Good morning, America. Hi, everyone. It's Thursday. These are always the fun pods of the week. Yeah, the loose ones. Today we are going to talk a little bit about Martin Scorsese's Killers of the Flower Moon, which Andy saw last night and I saw over the weekend. And then we have a fun, a little lighthearted game we're going to play.

We've kind of tease this. on last episode. This idea is called the streaming TV platform redraft. We could workshop that name. Executive produced by Andy Greenwald. Yeah, because we didn't tease it on the last podcast.

Written and directed by Chris Ryan. That mine grape grew on my headvine live on air. Do you think we should start doing credits for ideas like this? Well, only if they were mine. I just want everyone to know my contributions.

I used to love when Afghan Wigs records were like shot on location in Memphis. By Greg Duley. Yeah. It was just like, if you mentioned if you were like the drummer of that band, just like, do I get health care? It's great to see you. I have to say.

And I mean this with all the love of my heart. Oh, boy. You've seemed more lively on other days in my life. Yeah. You know, I think that life as one moves through it is a series of heat checks on oneself. And, you know, the way we. learn is by doing. And so the way that I learned,

I was too old to see a three and a half hour motion picture on a weeknight was about two hours ago. Actually, no, it was about two hours into the three hour movie. When you texted, when I was

like, are you going to the movie? Because we talked about how you were going to see it and we were going to talk about on Thursday. I'm eager to see it. You did see it. I'm eager to see it again. Because I had read that Jesse Plymonds was in the movie. No. I don't. I did see the movie. I was like, oh, you're going to go see it. We can talk about on Thursday. And you were like, yep. And I was like, awesome. And you were like 730. And I was like,

hmm. Now, because my guy, Chris, wisely, like, blocked out. And a Philadelphia Eagles free Sunday, right? No, it was, but I did. It was the Eagles were on Sunday night. Yeah. No, I can't remember what happened. But it was basically like, I was going to go to like a four and I wind up moving it up to 12. This is fascinating stuff. Perfect. So that I could then get home for the Phillies. Perfect. How'd that work out? Don't have to do that anymore. Nope. A lot of killers this week in our lives. Yeah, let me say at the top, as a student of cinema, as a long time, you know, a supplicant in the temple of artistry that is a regal multiplex, I really do recommend people see this movie in the theater. And I genuinely mean this, even though I am a little shaky today.

always, always would rather see a long movie in the theater when there are no options really, where I cannot choose something else. I cannot just say like, well, I'll finish it tomorrow. No, no, no. I wanted to be in there for the experience. I did stay awake for the entire movie. I really loved and enjoyed the movie.

I mean, you were saying this, Andy typically goes to bed somewhat earlier. A little bit earlier. But I will say that what I did do in the movie was I think that I sort of attempted to reanimate my body the way Dr. Victor Frankenstein animated his monster. Not through electric stimulation. I did not have the ability to do that.

Did he come in? Did Dr. Pepper come in? Did Dr. Pepper come in and examine the patient? There were some sour patch, like, you know, tablets applied orally to try to get the sugars going. I was just like, I was just moving my body way too much. Now, one of the good things about modern movie theaters is you can recline, which is maybe not good if you're tired,

but like you have a lot more real estate. Yeah. So I wasn't bothering anyone, I think. But I was sort of spastic. Yeah, you were like flipping over, trying to get snugly. Well, I was just like, maybe it had a good time to stretch the old leg, not stand up, just sort of shoot it, bolt up right in front of me. Like, I was having some sort of, look, it wasn't cool. It wasn't a cool experience.

But look, I'm devoted. Do you know what else I did that's going to surprise you? What? The night before, again, I want, you've already said that Thursday shows are bright and fun. so I don't really want to talk about Major League Baseball ever again, really. But in order to both attempt to cleanse that experience of watching Game 7 from my mind,

but also to prepare a little bit, do you know what I fired up? This is very unlike me, too. Already, Kai is stunned. She doesn't know what happened to me. I went to a movie on a weeknight. I fired up a film called The Wolf of Wall Street. Did you really?

Yes, I did. When's the last time you saw that? Okay, so... Was that during your time period of being like, I don't think so? I thought that was quite... Yes, so I want to address that. I'd like to...

Look, I am... I don't need to watch this man defile himself for two and a half hours. Monstrosity of a film. My 30s were fun. I was a fun guy. Sorry if I don't care for... Rampant violence on the screen. The gratuitous quailude use.

I would like to say something that I think other people, maybe people older than us knew who listened to our podcast. This is good. I'm glad we're doing a survey of modern Scorsese. It's not modern Scorsese. This is just pure Dattington play, which is to say, I now know with a couple of years in the rearview mirror that if anything cultural happened in either the year 2013 or the year 2017, when my daughters were born, I have no, no, no, no memory of it. No connection to it. Absolutely cannot be trusted for my opinions. That may be true for my, like, behavior those years as well. I cannot guarantee it. but I went to a screening of Wolf of Wall Street. I remember feeling that it was long and mean. And I really...

I do remember this. And I came in and I was like, well, I definitely was just like on this podcast. I was like, you know, he's circling his own drain. I don't know what was wrong with me. I was like, that's the best American movie ever made. Yeah, it's one. So I'd like to sit across from you as your friend and co-host and say, don't trust me.

That movie's fucking awesome. I now know that. Yeah. So like it's sort of funny that I had no idea. 40% of what a recorded output is me just sort of being like, he's not going to believe this in the year. 40%. You change your opinion a lot.

What I love about you is that you're willing to do it. You know what I mean? Which is why I want you to go back on True Detective Season 1 with me. I want you to go back to Louisiana and see if maybe Carcosa was for you all along. I think you just want to recreate the Halcyon days of social media. I have a lovely time share there. to tell you about. Andy, did you see the

Instagram video that was going around, well, I guess it was just like a social media video, but I happen to see it on the Instagram platform. Social media is great right now. The guy standing outside of the Phillies game interviewing Phillies fans as they were leaving? I did not.

You did not see that? No. Oh, okay. So it's like, Hey, what do you think about? Should we keep playing dancing on our own? And they're like, fuck that song. What did it do for us? You know, like that kind of stuff? Yeah. I would love it if you had been in that video and he was like, what are you going to do now?

The Phil's lost. And you'd be like, we're going to go home and revisit Wolf of Wall Street. First of all, you are giving Delco today. That was some of your best work. It's giving. Ever. Sweet, sweet. Delco film guy?

It's giving Lee's Hoguey house in like such an intense way. How could you think Martin Scorsese thought that Scorsese? Belfort was a good guy. He's not. He's not. Anyway. I'm really glad I watched that because A, I was totally wrong about stuff

and that's just a fun way to live life just to be wrong. One is always learning. But B, it was really, I really appreciated watching that before seeing Killers of the Flower Moon, which tonally could not be more different. Yeah. But seeing a absolute master

turn his attention to very, very different contexts, very different stories, very different characters, very different tones, but still be interesting. in the same thing and still have, same things, broadly speaking, and still, and to have the precision with which he just exacts his art now was really moving and really made for a nice double feature. And just to segue into the more serious critical part of the podcast, my main

feeling watching this film, other than fuck I'm tired, was gratitude. I felt enormous gratitude that he is making movies like this on this scale for us to see. in a conversation with the country, in a conversation with the current cultural moment, but also in a conversation with his own art and his feelings about the country that made him and violence and family and the things that have always motivated him and to do it with such generosity of tone, I thought was really remarkable. I think that his latest period, this last period, I hope it's not his last period, but if he has another, like, I'm pivoting to like fun 90-minute thriller,

for the last, you know, like that'll be surprising. This period of Wolf of Wall Street's silence, the Irishman, and Killers of the Flyer Moon, is such an amazing capstone on an amazing career because he's doing his most Herculean work now. I mean, you can make the argument that there are cinematic things going on in the Raging Bull taxi driver

or Goodfellas Casino eras that are like, you know, more kinetic or whatever. Like, I think that this feels thematically so heavy to get to this part of your life and be like, what I'm interested in talking about is greed, violence, death, God, and this country, and humanity.

And, you know, I was reading, what was I reading about? Oh, I, something, a short story I was reading, referenced Calvinism. And it was talking about this idea that the human, humans are essentially like,

this scar. sinful, fallen being. That's how I felt when I woke up this morning. And I think that that, like, even though, you know, this Calvinism was, like, present in early Scorsesey work because he had worked with Paul Schrader, who I think was very much, like, in that tradition. The short story I was reading was not Paul Schrader. I was just, but I was thinking a lot about...

What was a John Cheever? It was. But I know you. And I was just thinking about, like, how even though this feels like some of the thing where he's now considering the body of his work and the totality of, you know, American culture. It's very in line with the stuff that it's, that happens early on in his career in taxi driver, in Raging Bowl, where he's thinking about, he's thinking about how maybe inherently fucked up we are as a race of human beings. Yes. And there's a huge,

it's weird to say a straighter influence because they are contemporaries and work together. but I felt Shrader in this movie to a degree, or at least maybe it's just the sort of the religious rigor of it in the movie. I thought it was really fascinating to see him. One thing that generally you don't see with artists, especially... We're not really spoiling anything, so I... It is a historical film.

It is... It's very important to Andy that everyone listen to each segment of the podcast. Well, I feel like we have a real crowd pleaser coming up, so I don't want to get away from that. I just worry about how people... Kaya knows this. I'm thinking a lot about metrics. I'm a big time code guy.

I love it. I love jumping around. Do you? Sure. I have a hard time jump. This is a separate conversation. Love listening to ads. You rarely see filmmakers, especially celebrated or artists in any field,

grow into a kind of restraint. Generally, when you're celebrated for things, whether you do it out of ego or intentionality, or it's just no one has checked you or you're no longer interested in checking yourself, you just steer into your most base instincts. You know, movies get longer. Violence gets more over the top or whatever the case may be. Certainly the movies are getting longer. But what was striking to me about this is early on there is a now, I think, pretty

trademark series of Scorsese shots, which is referring to violence that has happened in the community. And it's cutting to the scenes or sometimes even showing scenes of, again, very Scorsese, like shocking sudden graphic violence and death. And, you know, in all of the movies you're talking about, Casino Goodfellas, they're operatic, sometimes scored to Layla's scenes like this, right? But there was an austerity to these scenes. It happened early in the movie.

There's a restraint to them. And it made me realize that for as much as this movie, like all of his movies, are about people who become, who sell themselves out for systems, you know, into systems, pre-existing systems, whether it's the mob or whether it's the church, the church, or whether it's the capitalist wolves of Wall Street, they are within a system in which the rules of normal society don't apply, and they exist differently for them, and they throw themselves into it. So our relationship with Henry Hill is like sympathetic. From Goodfellas, yeah. From Goodfellas. It's sympathetic or empathetic, but also, what's the first line of the movie?

He always wanted to be a gangster, so he knows what he is embarking upon. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I do not have a complete mastery of the Scorsese catalog, but this struck me as either the first or one of the first movies that foregrounded the victims of the system in a way. Yeah. There are plenty of victims in all of his movies. You never see anybody who lost their house in Wolfram for All Street. Yeah, we don't focus on the street. And so that led to some of, I think, some of the sort of moral panic and confusion that I probably performed on the podcast, but I think other people have as well, which is what are we celebrating here and what are we commenting on?

not celebrating anything. Yeah, I was completely... It just happens to feel good. It's funny. Much like drugs do. While you're in the moment, you're like, this is so funny, and then you take a step outside of it, and you're like, that wasn't...

No, the glassy-eyed empty debauchery of that movie is just staggering. Right. It's incredible movie that we're not talking about today, but I should have talked about differently 10 years ago. But I guess what I mean is, it is such a remarkable tonal tightrope that he's walking, where De Niro and DeCaprio are the most well-known people in the cast. They are nominally the stars.

They are the top-billed people. They are the actors most associated with Scraise. And they are, whether, you know, for whatever their moral reasons are, and I think they are different between those characters. They are an engine that grinds up everything else in their path. And the movie also holds up Lily Gladstone's character, Molly, and the rest of the Osage community has co-leads or leads of the movie. It's really remarkable, right? I mean, I was overwhelmed by it, you know? I think it's a huge, huge achievement.

It's also a movie that, like, really rips you out of the typical transactional relationship that you have with films, right? I think Sean talked a little bit about this, but when it came to the length question. But I almost find it difficult to talk about it in the same terms that I talk about, you know, a thriller that I liked or, you know, you know, no hard feelings. And it's, I don't even mean that as a swipe against any other movie. I just mean that to me this is like kind of a little bit more like going and getting educated while also being, you know, low-key entertained, but I think always feeling pretty dreadful throughout the film.

There's moments of absolute stunning beauty. There's a particular scene where a character is basically crossing over into the afterlife that is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in a, in a, in a, movie and just like this moment of complete quiet and peace. It's an incredible sequence. But, you know, I find his films, especially these later ones, to be so worthy of repeat study just because he's doing a lot of like the stuff that he actually, I think really started, if I'm right, I think he really started messing around with, with, he and Thelma Schumacher,

his longtime editor in The Departed, where chronologically like scenes start in like these funky ways. Like, it'll start and like, they're already in a room and you're like, what room, in what house, and what day is that? And like, you're kind of catching up with some of the linear elements of storytelling. And, you know, we, especially for us, because we're watching so much television and we're just like, why'd that dog yank the guy into the street? Like, you know what I mean? Like, we're always asking these kinds of like plot questions. Yeah. Even though plot is very important to Killers of the Flower Moon, I think it's more of a painting, you know? And it was, it was more of an experience where, you go and you like a commune with a Rothko and inside the Rothko you find out what a dirty

fucked up country we live in. Yeah, it is, I think there's a misunderstanding when people parse like Scorsese Marvel comments or whatever or like people say this is odd, this is cinema, whatever. I don't think what people are saying is this is cinema because it is morally important or historically worthy or an epic in scale or scope about the real world or history as it happened. What's cinematic about it. is that we are in the hands of a master artist who is showing us what he wants to show us. This is not the definitive version of history,

of the Osage murders, or the founding of the FBI, or even of David Graham's book, which I had never read, and I think I probably should. This is so much Scorsese's movie. And I think that's a really powerful thing to consider, and also something that we rarely leave space for in the way we talk about any kind of art anymore. And you can see that in what you're speaking to,

which is there's no handholding, years pass between scenes, certain relationships, not just between people, but between peoples and a nation, are kind of just assumed. We're sort of presented with. It's not overly explained to us. There is, at the very end of the movie, and I don't want to, again, I'm not going to spoil specifically the end, but the way that Scorsese chooses to end his storytelling is intentionally theatrical. In every possible way. And fourth wall breaking. And and very, if not

completely fourth wall breaking, essentially fourth wall breaking, yeah. And I found that to be confounding and compelling and really, really interesting. And it's also to me worth noting the level of detail in this movie. You know, again, you think about people

this is a different, it's hard to make this comment considering the state of politicians in this country, but like you think about people getting older and you're like, well, maybe they won't sweat the details anymore, sweat the small stuff. Let's hope they do. The thing about this movie that is so striking is,

you know, when you consider Goodfellas or any movies in what people consider to be Scorsese's pocket or his backyard or the world that he knew growing up with Italian-American experience in New York, you're like, oh, the verisimilitude of it is unparalleled because these look like guys. These look like people that he must have known

or he's casting them not for movie screens, but for just recognizing. the faces in this movie are absolutely incredible. Like just the rogues gallery of character actors, of aging white men with no necks and big mustaches, and then his really interesting harvesting of musicians to be in this movie. Jason Isbell plays...

This is really good and disconcerting. Yeah. Surprisingly large part. Sturgle's good, yeah. Sturgele Simpson isn't it? Pete Yorne isn't it? these are faces that have stories to tell and are fascinating. And none of it feels false.

And I don't want to create a straw man argument here between movies, especially when I haven't seen. But I was really struck by another movie that I want to see. But there was a trailer before for Ridley Scott's Napoleon. I was about to say, never judge the trailer, even though we do that with some regularity on this pop culture podcast. You and the mouse in your pocket do that. But still, I'm not sure about that.

You saw this trailer, right? I'm going to see this movie. I hope Ridley Scott continues to make movies forever. But I was struck by the, maybe it's an over-reliance in the trailer to get just mass-market audiences. But there are a lot of big battle scenes and a lot of like sweeping shots of the battlefield and of Paris. And they all look like computers. It's all CGI. And that's what most movies are.

There was also a trailer for Aquaman too And I would love to see the Venn diagram And people who went to see killers on a weeknight And we're like, oh, sick, Mamoa's back Patrick Wilson got his check But both of those movies Are very, very long, constructed epic, very long epics constructed

out of green screen and on computers. And I'm sure there's CG in this movie as well. Yeah, I think he did some to sort of... I think on the vista shots, I think he probably did a lot. Yeah, some. But this is a movie that is told between compelling faces in rooms.

I was just so blown away by the fact that it is epic in scale. I mean, epic in scope, but not in scale. Pretty amazing performance from Lily Gladstone. Got to talk about it. At times, you know, so, you know, I think I loved about it the most is there are moments in her relationship with Ernest, the character played by Leonardo Caprio, where it's so

she's so three-dimensional because you can see that there are certain things about Ernest that she likes and loves and that there are certain things about him that she's very suspicious of and there's things happening around her like she says at one point I think she says like evil is surrounding my heart

you know it's like she's this person who's living in a world where I think she knows her days are numbered but at the same time is kind of reaching out for human connection anyway you know and I think all of that comes through like her presence

like her ability to communicate a lot without saying a ton the feeling you get for who Molly is within the context of her sisters you know like what she is as a sister what she is as a daughter what she is as a woman who's going shopping

and then being driven back in a taxi cab like I just got like a total sense of that and I would love to go back and rewatch the film like with like a closer eye on like her arc. I thought she was amazing. Full stop. I thought she was amazing. First of all,

I think that that part is almost impossible. I say almost because she did it. The part is a, if you, you know, 10,000 foot view, that part is a black hole of pain. That part is for a woman who spends the majority of the film.

Grieving, yeah. Grieving. Or being poisoned and whether it's literally or figured if it. Yeah. for her to create enough character around the black hole to be present always was amazing to me.

I also thought it was really a beautiful study of, I keep using this word when talking about this movie, but maybe it's just a word one uses a lot when talking about art you admire, is generosity of the acting in the movie. Because I think DiCaprio is also phenomenal. And I think he's phenomenal in such a surprising way because having just watched the film Wolf of Wall Street,

which I believe you've seen, I think maybe my favorite Leo is Off the Chain Leo is Jordan Belford Leo And there's elements of that here When he goes big, when he goes dumb When he I mean a lot of there are very funny scenes in the movie And very funny line readings

For him to play this part It's his face on the poster But he's a pawn and essentially a villain People have made the comparison That this is more of a Rupert Pupkin character Than it is a Billy Costigan character Or like whoever, yeah for him to

for the way that he and Lily Gladstone worked together I thought was really fascinating for them to each hold space for the other bringing different styles of performance to very different parts but as you said at the very beginning still holding true to their orbit of each other then you bought it the scene where they sit

quietly in the rain the scene throughout the whole movie that she knows a lot I mean she knows that she's not blind to the circumstance of all of these white men marrying her and her sisters and her friends, but also wanting companionship. Also finding something of value in this guy was, I was blown away by it.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I think we can talk about it more like maybe when we're doing end-of-the-year review stuff if you want. Can I say one more thing about 80-year-olds really stepping up when it matters most? This is about Joe Biden? Bob De Niro, Bobby De Niro. Yeah. Isn't that what, like, can you just deepen it, just reach into his bag and just casually

toss at 100 mile per hour heater. I don't remember the last time I thought he was this good. And I in the Irish... What's the last Robert Jeniro performance even remember? I mean that... He does voiceover in an Argentinian food show. That's right. Nata, right? That's pretty compelling. Did you watch that?

No, not yet. I'd like to. The Zach Ephron movie, wasn't that? Wasn't he like Bad dirty grandpa, or is that Johnny Knoxville? Bad and dirty grandpa. There were two grandpa movies, weren't there? It should bring the grandpa verse together, though. I think that was the plan. That's with the studio. And they had that big photo shoe

with all the bad and dirty grandpas, you know, but then they weren't actually, they didn't get to make the movies despite Alex Kursman's best efforts. He's, like, you know,

Irishman part, he's really good, but it's also, the CGI stuff is weird. And it's, it's in his, that's in his bag, right?

Like, we know he can play those types of parts. He was razor sharp. Yeah, I kept, I kept thinking about how there's a recurring image of an owl throughout the film.

and the owl represents death, you know, for the character who sees it. And I think it's fair to say that De Niro's character represents death for a lot of people as well. And he's very owl-like sitting in these meetings at these ceremonies, at these weddings, at these dances in his office or whatever. And he's just sort of, he's trying to put forward this like concerned citizen vibe. But like behind these like wire rim glasses. is just he's like looking, looking, and he brings stuff for them. He's, it's an incredible performance. I would just say.

Considering the fact that like, I didn't, I don't, it's, it's, it's, you're right. It is so funny that, like, he does, like, Red Box Thrillers with Jason Statham. And then, like, he's like, yeah, I still have, like, a fucking all-timer for you. If he wants to, we could do it. Yeah. And the gang got back together. And I just thought they, they did it. I don't know.

I, I'm still processing it, obviously. But I would also just say, I think we mentioned it previously on the podcast, but. having seen the movie, I want to go back and read our buddy, Zach Barron's profile of Scorsese that was in GQ. If you haven't read it, please read it. It is so inspiring, honestly, to read. It's a wonderfully written piece, as Zach's pieces always are. But, like, this guy's giving us art.

It's really cool. And so is Martin Scorsese. And so is Martin Scorsese. Go back and also listen to Sean and Amanda on the Big Picture because I thought their conversation about the film was great. And they got much more into spoiler territory. I'm going to listen to it, too. Let's take a quick break, and when we come back, Andy and I are going to introduce a little game for the watch.

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You just throw out these seeds. This is you, I'm talking about. You throw out these seeds and sometimes harvest comes early. So I think on Monday, I don't even remember what show we were talking about. We were talking about lessons in chemistry. We were talking about Loki, but I think you were talking about a different show within the context of those conversations. Right. And you were just like, one day we should do, we should basically readdraft where these shows would have been

better suited, found a better home for themselves. Because we were having a conversation about Netflix and how things are just and the town just did a whole episode about this as well. But it's like it's Matt's thing. I felt bad because I was like, you know what Matt said, let's do a podcast about it. Listen, if he's listening, Matt,

you can have a whole podcast about like overly damp chicken. Like you can take anything you want that we talk about on the watch. We can talk about why Chris should do Pilates. You could do that on the town. and then it's a fair trade. Chris Ryan's takes on dog walkers. This is a hot one. You want to talk about this?

I don't know. I don't think so. Because I think we have some goodwill. Let's keep it going. People love our takes on dogs. And Chris has just been concerned citizen nimbie. There was like a full on like dog fight inside of my coffee shop this morning. And I was really proud of the barista for being like this has to go outside.

There's a sign on the door that says, sorry, no dogs. And I think that just because like everybody's trying to do their best, they're like, yeah, sure your dog can come in. They even have some doggy treats on the coffee thing. Yeah. But I think they were just like, this is too much. I think that what you're, I want to be clear, that Chris's platform isn't restrictive. He's not trying to like impinge on anyone's personal or canine liberty. It's just a plea for a return to common sense. That's generally your, your platform. And one of, one of your main arguments, if I may, and we are going to do our draft. I'm just part of the problem solver caucus. You're just like, maybe keep your dog outside.

But also you're like... I didn't say that. You're like, maybe don't have a dog. That's your thing. I'm just trying to put the villain hat on you. I did not say keep your dog outside. All I was saying, my thing right now is that there is a particular group of people who walk their dogs past my house very early in the morning. And the fact that they're walking their dog is not like a primary concern of theirs.

They don't care where the dog relieves itself, whether they've properly cleaned up after it. And they love rolling some morning Zoom calls. as they're like hanging out outside of the house. And that's, it's, it's my beef. We'll figure it out at the next, at the next city council meeting. Yeah. That'll be. Yeah. Can I, excuse me, Mayor Bass.

Chris, concerned. Eastside resident. Can I just, can I just throw a potential, I just don't think you've thought about this. There's a chance that this isn't just people not paying attention to their dogs while they try to like, you know, reconnect to an industry just beginning to return from a paralyzing labor stoppage. There's a chance that this is a collective group of your neighbors who are aghast at you're driving. What's wrong with my driving? The way you blow past stop signs. And they were like, how can we get back at this beloved- By trolling him. It's not, you know, you're a powerful figure. You

have a microphone, you know, and so I think they want to, they want to organize and fight back the best way they can. Yeah. I'll keep you updated. Please. I'm worried about you over there. So we're going to do this game. Andy had this idea when we were talking about winning time, and we've kind of broken

it down. This is the streaming TV platform redraft. This is very simple. We're going to take some shows. I would say from the calendar from 2023, but we're going to scoge a little into 2022 for fun. Yeah, and I think a couple things worth saying at the top, I don't think we're going to do this in the style of a draft that has been popularized on other podcasts.

We're going to just mention a show and then we'll just chat it out. is what it should be. I think in the future maybe we could blow this out, but I think this is kind of a fun way to start. I also think it's worth noting that shows end up on their services through a variety of paths. It's very possible that when, if we say X should have been on Y, that Y made a very competitive offer to get X and feels the same way. Absolutely. And also, we're not even really using

success as a true metric here. Because A, who knows, and B, I think that there's HBO has succession. It's an iconic all-timer show for them. It wins all these Emmys. It gets all this buzz. It's not watched by as many people as watched Last of Us. So success is a fluid idea in some ways.

And success means different things for different services. I also think, for the context of why we're doing it now, all of these services are raising their prices. They sure are. To a honestly shocking degree. They sure are. And for people who have been following this from the beginning, it's not that this is completely unexpected.

Like even when Disney launched the Ploose service, it was a loss leader. Like they were trying to make a splash by undercutting the competition. I think they launched like $4.99 a month. This is a tried and true business tactic. You know, you give them the first taste, not for free, but for $4.99 a month. And then once they hook you, they hook you. The turn to higher prices is a nod towards the reality that we are all in in in different ways, both people and corporations.

that money is no longer a free fictional idea to be borrowed from banks for nothing, everybody needs to actually make profits to varying degrees now. So we're seeing that. We are also seeing, and I think these companies are soon going to see, that a lot of people don't actually, actually want all of this. And we have suddenly recreated the worst excesses and prices of the cable bundle in the supposedly golden age. It could be, I mean, if you were so stricken that you were like,

I need to have five of these streaming platforms or whatever. it is, plus I have to pay my internet service provider and whatever else I'm doing, you are paying your capable now. Yes. Especially if you have a YouTube TV or a Hulu with live TV kind of thing where you're recreating some sort of cable experience or live television experience by cutting the cord. You're now getting back up around it. Now, obviously, people can be a lot more kind of, not cavalier, but aggressive when it comes

to, I've watched the show I wanted to watch on Netflix this month. I'll cancel Netflix for a month and then sign up before it again when it seems like Stranger Things is coming back. People could do that with Max. I assume I don't think that there's a lot of contractual obligation. A lot of these services do offer an annual plan where it's like save 10% by paying all of it up front. And then that way you're basically screwed when you decide you're out of stuff to watch on Paramount or whatever. That's getting in the weeds.

But we really want to do just want to say that like, first of all, I love the weeds. Showtime original. I'm going to redraft it. But, like, ad-free tiers for all of the services with their current price hikes or where they soon will be. Netflix is upwards of 1550 a month. Well, they also, one of the funny things about all this is that not only did they, a lot of these places introduce an ad tier, they also now are bumping up the non-ad tier prices to be like Netflix premium. Yes, adding words to it. Yeah.

Yes, to make it seem even more special. You know who just did that? The NBA League Pass. That's even more expensive now. If you want NBA League Pass premium, so you can use it on multiple devices. What if, due to the current situation of the Philadelphia 76ers, I want to actually have NBA news taken away from me. Oh, that's true. I would pay money to have it just blacked out of my life.

You're actually giving me a billion-dollar idea. Yeah. Why don't we start a service that creates basically AI general? generated championship runs for people's sports teams. Oh my God. Like we create fake beat writers writing fake stories about teams having fake success. Yeah. We have, we take like subscription and then we spend all that money on AI created parades,

viral videos of people coming out of the stadium being like, now I can die happy. Like, how close could we get? My whole body is just electric right now. I would pay a, this is like Make a Wish Foundation for, emotionally unbalanced adults like myself. But I mean, like, first of all, I think I'd be quite good at doing this. Yeah, this is the most alive I've seen you in months.

I was just thinking about, like, I could actually do a, like, what Philadelphia's World Series Championship needs to be podcast? Maybe, you know, could we... I could do it with Asa Manage, you know? Could we redo? A bit of a fabulous, you're saying,

would be useful. I would... Like, just give me all of the content from what should have happened with the Sixers over the last decade. Yes. Just like, and I don't mean like redo everything. We could still draft Joel O'Cafor. And who can forget when Markelds through Joelle and B'd the Alleyoop at the last second to win the championship? I'm sorry.

Who can forget when the Sixers outfoxed the league by drafting Jason Tatum at three, thus sparking an unparalleled run of championships? No, give me that content. I don't care if it's fake lie to me. Yeah. I'm so easily manipulated. I would love that. Okay, well, so that's where my, the 1799, I could be paying for Hulu premium. I'm now going to pay for fake Chris Sports News. But truly these numbers for ad-free stuff, it's insane. It's an insane amount of money per month that they are expecting you to. Are you going to tell me any of them? Are you just going to keep? Yeah. Hulu's going up to $18 a month. Max, $16 a month. Disney 14 a month. A Paramount, Pl, Plano. with Showtime, 12, Peacock, 12, Apple now up to 10. I'm sorry, I'm rounding up. I love the 99 cent thing.

I think Apple just raised their prices that are going to raise their prices again. That's the current price. I think if you also factor in like some people pay for Apple Arcade. I mean, first of all, we're all paying Apple more than that per month anyway. Sometimes I get a charge from Apple and I'm like, excuse me, I don't think so. And then I'll look, I'm like, I did sign up for like Apple One, you know? The worst thing is when I'm like, if I sit down, I have a few hours here. I've written a few stern letters about the Wolf of Wall Street and now I can put on my reading glasses.

Dear Mr. Scorsese, how dare you? My cardigan and be like, that's really be the responsible fiscal adult here and be like, what is this $8 charge on my Apple? Pigment, what is this? Oh, it's the drawing app I got for my daughter in 2016 that she was like, I like, I like drawing. I'm like, you were going to be an artist. $8 a month ever since. I was getting charged for an app that I must have gotten at some point that was basically like, what plant is this?

Oh, Shazam for Trees. Yeah, but because I kept forgetting what plants I had and how often they needed to be watered. Right. I just can't keep them alive. I always wanted a Shazam for people because I don't remember when people come up to me and they're like, hi, and I'm like, I guess that this is a high. and I don't know who they are or if I know them. Yeah.

And then I realized what I was wishing for was the Orwellian police state. So I had to sort of rethink, you know, when my desires met the politics of the moment. Yeah. So I no longer want that. The streaming TV platform redraft. So we're asking, would this show have been bigger, but I'm going to put quotation marks around bigger because bigger can mean buzzier. Bigger can mean more actively covered, which, you know, I think is actually like something you could say for some Netflix shows is moving a Netflix show to an HBO or something would give it a week to a week release.

Maybe it would have more discussion around the episodes. I have a different point to make even, which is to say, we're everyone's friend here. The way I approach this was I'm trying to share a vision with the corporations and the creators and see if we can get them aligned, which is to say, I'm not just trying to get the show more successful. I'm trying to make the streaming service make more sense in light of its price hikes. So now that you know what you're buying, this show makes sense as part of that show's package. Gotcha. Okay.

I mean, you're just here to help. I'm just here to help. I've been pouring over this list you texted me for minutes now. I sent you this list in advance. You did. Yeah. And then you asked me to send it again so that you could get to the top of your queue. Let's start with an easy one, a one that was beloved by this podcast.

And that I don't think is not necessarily, this is a really good example of a show that I don't think is necessarily overlooked. It certainly got a lot of press. Daisy Jones in the 6th. Yep. A fictionalized account of a Fleetwood Mac-esque band from the 1970s. Yep. Starring Riley Keo and like a fantastic kind of career-defining performance as up to now, although I think she could go on to do wonderful things.

Now she owns Graceland, so probably busy. She's fine. Yeah, got to change a lot of lug bulbs. Would you say that this show was on the right place? or its original streamer was Amazon. Do you like where it was at, or do you think it could have lived, it could have found more success somewhere else? I'm putting Daisy Jones in the Six,

a show that I loved, on Apple TV Plus. I think that Apple, and I'm not just saying this because of lessons in chemistry, I think that if you were to squint and look at the shape of what they are trying to do, it is a mix of smart global acquisitions, you know, like slow horses, hijack. And I think they like saying, hello sunshine. I think they mean that, I mean that not like Hello Tomorrow, the show that we are not doing on this redraft.

But I mean, not just in terms of Reese Witherspoon's company, but just almost as a brand of what they do, popular novels, blue skies kind of entertainment, affirmative entertainment. And I think that- Like it can get in the muck. It can get into the halls of Congress on January 6th. Sure.

But Bradley eventually has to persevere. And kind of... Daisy Jones and her six co-defendants in Fannie Willis's RICO's RICO case. That's what you're saying? Straight coffin, please. Yeah, I think... I wish I knew now what I knew.

Daisy Jones is a successful show because it was a successful show. I don't think, just looking at it broadly, it didn't do what Amazon necessarily wanted it to do. And my feeling about Amazon and Prime Video is that it's, A, still kind of not working. it doesn't matter. They have all the money in the world. Who cares if they lost money or not? I know the people there are proud of this show.

But whether it's the U.S., which only you like, but, you know, I watched Daisy Jones in the Six lovingly. We talked about it on the podcast. It never said continue watching to me. Every time I turned on my prime video hub on Apple TV on my Apple TV box, I had you search D-A-I-S just to get the show to show up. It must really be hard being you. so hard being me. I'm saying that they should, I'm thinking about for them. Yeah. They should be, I'm their fan here. Help me out. I think that it makes more sense on Apple, which just, it just feels more tonally appropriate and also weirdly, because money also is no object for them, the stakes feel a little bit different, you know? Amazon seems to be at its most successful making shows that you're

like, oh, hey, cool, fine. That's good. Glad that's on. More than the hijack Jack Ryan. By the way, million dollar idea. Hi Jack Ryan. Hi Jack Ryan. You're welcome. They're spilling. Our cup is runneth over today. Monday's show.

Hi Jack Ryan. Episode one. It also could be like if Jack Ryan was forced to go back to the office and it could be like high comma Jack Ryan. Like hi Jack Ryan. Oh, aren't you just an analyst? Yeah. Covered in blood and grime.

Yeah. All right. That's what I would do with it. I completely agree. There's also something about the Amazon U.S. and the idea of going to it and, you know, just be like, oh, I also need a ribbed tank top,

you know, and I could use some swifers. It's cluttered. If you go to Apple TV and you see Riley Keogh, and she's just like, you know, swaying across the stage, you're just like, there's a focus to it. And I also wonder, it does seem like Apple does not spare any expense if there could have been maybe one or two budgetary improvements to that show.

This is the only other thing I was going to say about it. I think that one way would, well, let's stay with where you were. The cast would have been different. And I think Riley Keough may not have been the star of the show, which would have hurt the show and made it a different show. And so maybe ultimately this is a failed exercise. My sense of the way Apple does business is they start at the top of the star and then they work backwards from that.

That's unfortunate. And I think it's unfortunate for TV in general, whereas the most traditional TV thing about Daisy Jones might be the very best thing, which was Riley Keow as a star from this show. and was perfect for it. Yeah. And I don't think that's Apple's general MO. I also think the music would have fit in better.

Look, we all know that in addition to our free shipping, we get music streaming on Amazon. We also know that no one has ever used that. Right? Like, it's true. Apple has an entrenched music business. They have beats one radio. Like, they could have done a different job, I think,

with the music. I mean, you can see on Spotify that the Daisy Jones music did quite well. Yeah. You know, and maybe that speaks. Is Spotify also a streaming music service? Maybe they should just put Daisy Jones up on Spotify.

Yeah. Which one do you want to do next? Just go through the list. I don't think there's any, I kind of like that you just made a list. I don't think there's, we're not building to anything here. Yeah. Lucky Hank is a show that I liked Bob Oden Kirk's follow up to Breaking Bad

and Better Call Saul, a kind of shorter series, a little bit more limited, that was about a professor kind of, out of step with the times at his university. Is AMC really, if you're not going for detective genre, like Dark Winds or Walking Dead Expanded Universe? Or Anne Rice, which is pretty much what I do now.

Are you looking for something that's like a fun campus dromedy with Bob Odenkirk, even though Bob Odenkirk built that shit? James Dolan couldn't build the sphere without Saul. Yeah, broadly, and I didn't really like the show, but it's what you... I'm letting you go. I would just thought sometimes I thought you want to be in the backer.

Do you want me to draw attention to your side talk? Side talk, N. Why? I... Side talk N.Y. Live reaction. Lucky Hank episode two, Bing bong!

Jake got in trouble! Yeah. I... And I say this, you know, again, people know with thumb on the scale because we... It's the paperwork still isn't finish. but we are still in negotiations to take over AMC Plus.

Sure. Yeah. I have a reminder. Siri said a reminder. Call our attorneys about that. It's been nine months. I love that AMC was like, we love working with you, Bob Odenkirk.

We made this great show. Let's make something else. What do you want to do? That's the spirit of a healthy, creative development team at a network that believes that it is making shows for America in 2009. And unfortunately, that's not the case that they was released into.

For me, this show fell into the Lodge 49 zone, which was another incredibly worthwhile, really interesting, really unique special. But before I move them, I think for me, the main reason isn't just that they don't fit on AMC's larger programming mission anymore. It's that AMC, Joey Byron would say,

God love them. They cannot afford to make these shows into the degree that makes them competitive in the marketplace for all shows anymore. And like Lodge 49, famously a SoCal surfing show shot in the surfing mecca of Georgia. You can't fake it. They did their best. I loved what I saw of the show. Lucky Hank to me is, I mean, it's Richard Russo. You put that on HBO. You know, I don't know if HBO's in that business anymore either, but a six-episode,

Richard Russo, bittersweet, tragic comedy, melancholy kind of observed thing with Bob Odin Kirk. And then you cast the shit out of every other part and you cast it way, way up, that works for me. And it works for what I think it was intended to be, which is Emmy bait, frankly, that works for me. That's very well put. Thanks, buddy. I don't think I would move it anywhere else but HBO. Mrs. Davis, a show that this is actually the perfect discussion to have. Okay.

So, Mrs. Davis was on. Kai, what minute of the podcast did we find the perfect discussion to have? Well, no, I mean, like, I think this is the closest thing. to winning time where I'm like, there's something here. Yes. I don't know that Peacock was the best place for it. Whether or not Peacock is the best place for anything, we can have that conversation.

This is a great example for why we're doing this talk is because you admire the swing. And it's impossible to consider the fate of Mrs. Davis, a show created by our friend Damon Lindeloff and Tara Hernandez that ran for one season earlier this year. Damon and Tara were under overalls at Warner Brothers. The show is made by Warner Brothers Studio. Damon has a relationship with HBO.

I think there was an expectation that his work would go to HBO. HBO declined, or passed on this show, went to the open market, and Peacock Pounce. And that is just good general managing, right? Like, this is the way the Tampa Bay Rays keep succeeding, right? You take the big swings or the reclamation project or the high upside draft pick that other teams might not. not or might not be in a position to. I think that we're talking about it now in hindsight,

because as we alluded to last week in the Netflix conversation, I'm not sure if Peacock is in that business anymore or if that business worked for them. Yeah. Of being like, we're going to compete with the big boys by grabbing the biggest things that are there to be. Players for poker face or whatever it is. Yeah. Outbidding people for poker face. It was in a sense the AMC playbook from 20 years ago almost now, shockingly, where they were like, what are the best scripts that no one else will make, will make them. The difference is AMC was flush with cash because of the cable carriage fees so they could just do that. Yeah. Flesh with cash and still casting primarily unknowns, but still, they could make the show and grow themselves and the shows.

I don't know if we live in that world anymore. I have a cheat answer for mine. Did you have a place to put it? Yeah, but it's a kind of a cheat too. I was going to say an older version of Showtime. Wow. Because I feel like Mrs. Davis could have hooked on to some of the yellow jackets fervor. And part of what I think Showtime's promise was a couple of years ago before it got subsumed by Paramount Plus. And who knows, maybe this continued to be the case. But I just feel like you could count on those shows lasting for three to five years. And there's three seasons of a city on a hill. There's going to be three or four seasons of yellow jackets. If Mrs. Davis was something that they felt like they could firmly get two or three or four seasons out of, I wonder whether it would

have been paced differently, for one thing. And for another, I think that might have been something you could pair with yellow jackets as like an offering of like mystery box female led kind of creative adventure stories. I like that. I've got a... But that version of Showtime no longer exists. So I don't know if I have the proper answer. I have a similar thing that doesn't exist, which is kind of a cheat, which is original plan max, a Max original. Now, what I mean by that is when HBO Max launch, the company very smartly decided to say, this is HBO Max, but HBO stays HBO,

and Max is something different. And Kevin Riley, a longtime respected executive, is in charge of the programming, and he has a full remit to do whatever he wants, which led to things like Station 11, our favorite show of a couple years ago, being a Max original that was also, I believe,

bid on by HBO, that they were sort of in competition for, whether they competed or not, but HBO was interested in it, but it could have been on either. I think we are where we are with these networks, those two networks, because it should have been. When there was the restructure, it became Warner Brothers Discovery, Casey Blois took over the programming for both, and it's a much clearer line now that like the Penguin show with Colin Farrell and Peacemaker and just like that, those are Macs shows and HBO shows. But I do think that when you're launching something,

and it's a little bit buzzier or wilder, or we're taking chances here, that's what Mrs. Davis was, because it is, let's be honest, an insane show. One that I think is really worthwhile, but does not fit into any box, even a British Knight's sneaker box. And I think putting it up there

would signal that it was different, but it would also allow you to have, when the episode ended, boxes for its creators' other shows, which would be Watchmen, which would be the leftovers and also would be the Big Bang Theory. And maybe this is old-fashioned of me,

but I still think like viewers can connect dots themselves. Sure. And maybe then enter into a relationship with the show knowing its genealogy. Yeah, like if you're going into, that to have that sort of like, oh, the stuff is sort of floating around and the same platform might have been of some sort of assistance.

I mean, it's an indescribable show, but you could do worse than trying to say it's Watchman meets Big Bang Theory. We did Winning Time, which is the HBO show about the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1980s, and we talked about how we felt like maybe on Netflix this becomes a juggernaut of some kind. I want to give you, I'm going to throw a little curveball at you here. Okay. So jury duty is a show that you didn't love because, like, I don't think that's your really brand of humor.

I don't like things about rogue stockbrokers in the 1980s doing drugs, disrespecting women. And you don't like any show that mocks our jury selection process. Well, just our beautiful judicial system. Yeah. Journey Duty was a show very dear and dear to my heart, a comedy that was on Amazon Freevy earlier in the year. It's a sort of mockumentary about a guy's journey through the legal process as he serves on a jury,

and it features a very funny performance from James Marsden as a member of the jury. This was obviously a buzzy show. I think a lot of people chatted about it over the course of the first half of the year. an Emmy nomination. I would, I would venture to say

that this would be a great thing to put on, on ABC, in tandem with Abbott. I think that this would make a great block of comedy. Now, I would say that

watching jury duty as a total package, it makes a lot more sense and feels a lot funnier than if you watched it week to week, and this is only like a six or eight episode show. I don't think it's a very long show,

so I don't know how you would do that. But I do think that this is something that had incredibly broad appeal and incredibly, and it was incredibly funny. They've made sort of these kinds of, what do they call it, single camera when it's like this.

Work on ABC before, obviously with Abbott, with modern family, this idea of like sort of they're making a documentary about this. So I think this has like potential to be like seen by a lot of people. And I remember correctly, I don't think a lot of humor

couldn't have made it on prime time television. I think it's a good take. It's a little outside of our rules, but okay, we ready for mine? Yeah. Do you want to sit down? I'll sit down. I kind of wish you. I feel like, Shil Kapadia stands, right?

For all the podcasts I listen to? Shill stands, Pat McAfee stands. Well, all your heroes. Shield, yes. I'm not sure about the other guy. Jury duty should be on Peacock. Okay. I think that one of the major flaws of some of these services is thinking that it

when you jumped universes, multiverses, into the streaming era, you could just completely reimagine who you are and what you can be, despite A, whatever brand recognition you carry over from the previous iteration of your company, despite the pedigrees of the executives that you're carrying from one version of your company to another, it doesn't, and also the library that you're bringing with you. To me, the best version of Peacock,

runs toward the fact that it is NBC and Bravo. You know, like that that's what it is. And so what are the things that it's carrying, that it's carrying over from those iterations of itself? What is the brand identity of NBC that people still, I think, hopefully to some degree carry on hold on to, which is Thurst Innette comedies, classic comedies from the 80s, 90s, and the 2000s,

Saturday Night Live, larger universe, and Real Housewives and Boats. Can I ask, I'm going to stop you for a second. Kaya. Yes. As the world's preeminent peacock watcher, do you have any vestiges of associating that brand or NBC Universal with Thursday night comedies? Well, that was like 30 Rock, right? Yes. Okay.

Yes. Yeah. Thank you. I was just asking. Kaya, I believe it's not yet 30 Rock years old. Stress testing your theory. Yeah. And that was like the awesome.

office in Parks and Rec. We're on. Yes. That's right. See? I know things. We never doubt it. I wasn't doubting that she.

No, I was saying that I wonder if Kaya is more indicative of a modern peacock viewer. Yes, she's like, this is where I watch below deck. She knows. She's catching what I'm pitching here. Okay. So, yeah, 30 Rock Law and Order below deck. Like, this is what's already there. So I feel like the programming that you create for it should be complementary to that programming.

FreeVies show jury duty. jury duty is a potentially broadly popular single camera comedy put it up there 30 rocks there the office is there let them talk to each other and also think I don't know for a fact but I would imagine it's not the most expensive

show to make I know I know Kirk Fox is quote personally and it is quite high but he deserves it but everyone else the thing about free V I get what the sort of premise of it is which is like there are ads and there's no way to get around them I wish there was a way to get around them because the

ads are almost uniformly the most grotesque, like, pharmaceuticals that you could possibly need at any given moment. And it really kills the vibe. It kills the vibe when you're watching a show you like. And then it's like, shoot this into your thyroid. Let's stay with Peacock. And we get to say it with your thyroid. Because I think you have poker face on that.

I was just curious to see what the kid would say. So obviously, poker face is one of, I don't know, the bigger shows of the year. But it was like one of the splashier debuts earlier in the season. the year, the Natasha Leone kind of reimagining of a Colombo mystery of the week from Ryan Johnson. I would say it was a solid six and a half or seven out of ten for me. And I really enjoyed some of the episodes quite a lot. Some kind of fell flat for me, but even then I was still like kind of entertained by the mystery of it all. And I love Natasha Leon's performance. It was the banner at the top of Peacock for most of the first half of this year,

I think. So Peacock, you can't say that they didn't promote it. You can't say that people didn't know it existed. What is your sort of better home for a show that's a mystery of the week like this? I think if I was the commissioner of the National Television League, I would say that this show is ineligible. Because from the very, very, very top, and plus with the gift of hindsight, it is a second time I've used this analogy.

It is Frankenstein creation that doesn't work in modern times. And what I mean by that is the description of what Pokerface is and what Ryan Johnson claims he wanted it to be is the perfect fit for Peacock. It could not be better because, remember, when they made the purchase even, they were pretty upfront about the fact that, like, wow, people really like watching Colombo and Murder She Wrote on our new streaming platform in addition to Real Housewives of Wherever. So having a new version of a show that,

that fits a mandate or a style makes such perfect sense. It's what I was just saying before about being true to your previously known identity. The problem is it is such a modern creation. So it is coming from MRC and outside studio. It is put together by a A-list filmmaker, Ryan Johnson, and at this point, B-to-A-List TV star slash showrunner in her own right, and Tasha Leon.

Very recognizable at least. And the way that Ryan Johnson is familiar with working, and he has earned this way to work is by leveraging his talent and his rolodex and his vision to bring in lots of fun people into this world to come play. All great. But all of a sudden, that pushes it into a different tier of show. It is a very expensive show. It is, as we're learning now, with the second season completely TBD separate and apart from the various strikes of the past year, not a show you can build a schedule or even a streaming fiscal year around. So the show that Ryan Johnson and Natasha Leone want to make is an Apple show

where it's just like you write us a check and we're going to get a lot of stars and it's going to be fun and you'll be able to we'll promote it and we'll put Apple products in it and we'll be good. That's not a show that makes sense, I think, for Peacock's current iteration. So I think it's just a poor fit. I think you either own what you're doing and make a 21st century Colombo and you make 12 to 18 of them a year every year for three to five years or you make a cinematic lark. Do you think the poker face

in the spirit of murder she wrote and Colombo would work on network television? Well, yes, but again, none of those people are going to work on network television. You know what I mean? Like, the bones of it, yeah. I mean, that's, winkingly knowingly.

Didn't Colombo used to do like six episode seasons and they weren't like necessarily like fall spring? They weren't 22 episodes. It was at beginning. And then for like the last when we became aware of Colombo, it was like three movies a year. Yeah.

And like, Harry Mason was, Raymond Yusinoff was like that too. It would be like these cojack would come back for like Sunday night movies. Yeah. But when these shows were shows, I mean,

like the, the DNA of Pokerface is literally every show from the 70s and 80s where someone wanders into it. It's the A team. It's the fugitive. Just wandering from town Highway to Heaven.

Yeah. Yeah. That would still work on network. Not off wandering from town to town anymore. Well, it's harder to do with our digital footprint. And also this facial Shazam I invented makes it really hard for people to be. And also you're walking into cities and you're just like, congratulations on your World Series win. I have all the merch that your company made, CR Industries, Detroit Tigers.

You did it, Cincinnati Reds. But it would do even better if it was absolutely just pandering to, like, you deserved this. Cleveland. Let's do 100 foot wave. Which I can't really get, they're making a third season of it. So it's obviously very successful. And even within the show,

you know, it starts out, it's like basically about these guys. So for people who don't know, this is one of me and Andy's favorite shows that's currently on television or on television at all. And it's a documentary series from Chris Smith about a group

of big wave riders who are especially, drawn to the waves off the coast of Portugal in the winter when it is just storming Norman out there and they're riding the titular 100 foot wave as you can see in the series from the first season to the second season Nazare the place in Portugal where they go has now become like a mecca for world surfing and for surf watching so clearly there is an obvious amount of interest within the world of surfing and I guess tourism for this for this show. But I never feel like

like nobody ever comes up to me and says I was watching a hundred foot wave. I'm always going up to somebody else and be like recommending it or something. Now that's my curse. But do you think that 100 foot wave would be even bigger somewhere else? Yeah, I think there's I think 100 foot wave is in a great, great spot. It's on HBO. It is however much money they're spending on it, it is not equivalent to a scripted drama at their normal scale. So I don't think it's in

any danger as long as some people are watching it and talking about it of not continuing. I think this is an interesting one to consider because there's basically are you trying to put it in a place where it could be seen by more people and become more of a phenomenon or a place where it is more financially and existentially secure?

I think it is broadstrokes, quick answer, it's in the right place. I mean, Philip Glass does the score. It's HBO. But it would be an interesting experiment to see it see it on Netflix. Next to Beckham and next to Drive to Survive. Yeah.

And I think that in the spirit of people watching Netflix in the way that Sam S-Mail hates, which no shots at his upcoming movie, the trailer looks awesome. But I think people do throw Netflix on just to be like, I'm just going to throw on something because I don't want the TV to be off right now. And one shouldn't do that with a hundred-foot wave, but one could do a lot worse. Because watching surfing is incredibly hypnotic. It's viving. And vibe.

The only other place to put it would be Apple, where I think it could be like, it's like a 10-year track. Like, it could run for one more year or 15 more years, and I don't know if even Apple's accountants would notice. Yeah, there's lots of stuff on Apple where it's like, world of earth. You know, and I'm like, I didn't even know we've run season three of this.

They just have a department for that. I think the only reason we even put it on the list is because HBO and Warner Brothers Discovery is in such flux. I don't know what the sacred cows there even are anymore. Right. I don't think it's, there's an argument to be made that you could put almost everything

on Netflix and it would be very interesting to see the bump as we're seeing with some HBO shows that are going over to Netflix and experiencing revivals, whether it's insecure, whether it's Band of Brothers,

things that are kind of like finding a different audience because they, or are being watched in a binge because Netflix's UX is particularly good. I did want to take a Netflix show and see if you thought maybe it would work somewhere else

and I'm choosing Beef for a very specific reason, which is beef is a show that I think had a week of conversation around it, a buzzy week of conversation about it, oh my God, I'm watching the shit out of this. But is a show that I think would have really

stood the test of a few months of conversation. You know, like the ideas that it was throwing around were really worth talking about on a week-to-week episode by episode basis. And I think that this show, whether you move it to an FX, an FX on Hull, stole my thunder.

Or a max, but I was thinking specifically FX and maybe a first two come out and then week by week after that, I think you wind up getting people really rolling with this show. I think a lot of people watched it and I think a lot of people loved it. But I just feel like this is a show that deserved a two-month conversation rather than a 48-hour one. I'm really proud of us. This is like yesterday when I texted you just sitting here listening to Pretty Girls Make Raves and you were like, are you listening to Pretty Girls Make Raves? and you were like, are you listening to it because I put it on Instagram,

and I was like, what's Instagram, bro? I don't live online. Do you look at my Instagram stories? I do. I do. I didn't even know why I paused. I paused because then when you were like on Instagram and I looked, and the Algo didn't give me you.

I know. That's the thing is I find my wife says that about me too. Did you put something on Instagram? She muted you. I don't actually post it all. You had to find out now as unfortunate. But yeah, we're in sync with each other. 100% FX.

Because FX, and we've said this before, I think pound for pound, I have the best marketing team in the game. Like, especially considering where they're starting from, which is not the same market penetration or familiarity, some of the other networks, not the same budget. They can put things, they can get things in front of people, and they can get people to consider things they might not otherwise consider. And they can grow something. And the bear is the biggest and best example of that recently. This beef, because it has such momentum, because it has such a specific point of view, because it's made by creators who knew what they wanted to do

and were empowered to do it. That is just FX's model. And I think it would be thriving there. Even as a story of a road range incident that spins out into like a crisis for the two leads, like it feels of a piece of the bear and of Dave and Atlanta.

And how are the episodes? They vary. I think that there's some some that stretch to an hour. But they're largely... Well, as like with the best... I think that would be perfect. The counterpoint to that, and I think it's not on your list,

but I did want to say something like The Old Man, which was FX's big drama push last year. I think the old man should be lovingly and gently taken away from FX and given to Paramount Plus, because the problem with the old man, in our eyes... Maybe get Taylor in your shit. Honestly, yes. For me, the problem with the old man was when it suddenly started to become more than what it clearly was.

Old man could be special ops colon the old man. Yes. And when it would just lean, just relaxed and was like, we are just a genre exercise starring old men who are good at acting in Jeff Bridges and John Liffel.

We had some really good ideas in this podcast, man. Unfortunately, I'm worried people won't get to them because they were like, I haven't seen killers of flower moon yet. Sometimes people will be like, so what are you going to do next? Like, what's going on with you?

And I wish I could be like, well, I think Taylor Sheridan should revive the old man. And I will be an executive producer on that. And I'm going to come up with a Truman show for sports. This is, and it's just Thursday. It's just Thursday. The thing that I can't get over. I haven't even had my harvest pole yet. The thing that I can't get over is that this, like, this was such a Grantland column that we're doing live on Mike and we're just giving it away.

This is actually what most of the other ring are podcasts, too. We just are the ones who are just like, another thing about people walking their dogs is like, what's up with restaurants? I just listened to Julia Louis-Dreyfus interview, older women. That's the only other podcast I listen to. Old man on Paramount, maybe with some Taylor Sheridan and Magic does. Yeah, because FX, God bless, God love him. They tried. Like, the old man

gets real heavy and weighty and like, we're going to be serious and, but come on. It's just an old man shooting people. Put it on Paramount Plus, relax. Here's one of it was this, it was like, almost careened into like the number

two or three for you at the end of last year. Yeah. And this is where I'm getting into a little bit of 2022 is the English. Yeah. Which was on Amazon Prime and came from Hugo Blick, who's one of our favorite television creators, television writers. He did The Honorable Woman.

He obviously did Shadow Line back in the day. And then he did, I'm saying obviously, like a ton of people saw that. But like, and then he did this show with Emily Blunt, giving honestly like my favorite performance in her career as a woman who's come to the front tier to find out what happened to her son. If you like Killers the Flower Moon,

you should check out the English on Amazon Prime video. I would say, if you like Lonesome Dove, you should check out the English. If you liked... If you liked...

If you liked good shit, you should watch this. It's a masterpiece. And this came out at the very end of the year. Yeah. Once? We covered it weekly.

I don't remember how they released it. And was breathtaking and amazing. And it feels like it got forgotten and I don't know what to do about it. So what do you think that it was?

What do you think we should have done with Hugo Blex's the English? This is a tricky one, and it's also sort of indicative of where we are with TV, which is like there are only a few safe places for artist-driven stuff. The ceiling for the show is not very high. There's no version of Hugo Blick's miniseries that is highly rated or that is a sensation. Like, you could put, you know, let me take that back. if you put this on Netflix, could it be godless? Which I think Scott Frank's mini-series with Michelle Dockery and,

I'm forgetting everyone else who was in it, but... Jeff Daniels? Yeah, I was like, who was the... Yes. That did very well, I think, for Netflix. You could, you put Emily Blunt's... Netflix is so powerful that you put Emily Blunt a star in the box on a horse, you know, and you're like, okay, it's a Western,

it gets some views. Automatically, it's exponentially more viewed. I don't know if that's just a... good place for the Hugo Blick experiment. So really what you're saying is who will protect him and whatever else you feel about Amazon and Amazon Prime and it was a copro with, I think, one of the Brit boxes. They made the show. They made the show and put it out, which at a certain point is really all you can ask for.

The question is then, do you blink and can you get this on an HBO? Could you get this on an Apple? So my argument for HBO would be that you get, that they do for, for Emily Blunt in this show what they did for Kate Winslet and Mayor of Easttown. That they are like a truly career-defining performance from one of our great, great actors,

and we're going to make a great trailer for it, and we're going to pump, like, Emily Blunt's going to be out there. We're going to find out, like, we're really going to get something, like, substantial here. But, I mean, I feel the same way about a show from a couple of years ago called Zero-Zer-0.

That is one of my favorite shows of the last 10 years, probably. And I was like, oh, I would have been really good on Netflix because Netflix already has this built-in market for international crime dramas. And I do think that there would have been probably some crossover narco's interest in 0-000. But 0-0-0 is weird.

And so is the English. And I don't really know if, like, you get into episode 2 or 3 of 0-0-0, and you're like, who the fuck are all these people? I'm out. And with the English, it's like, Emily Blunt, that's a little bit of like a head fake because she's actually maybe not the star of the show. You know? It's a little bit...

I mean, I wonder if we're going to look back on this era of massive expansion in the streaming universe and look at it like... Because Chas Spencer is kind of the... He's the star. Are we going to look back on this time the way we're like, man, Jawbreaker released a record on DGC or Interscope or whatever? Yeah. Like, that's crazy. And it's great. But at the time, everyone was like, what?

And ignored it. Like, there was a moment when all of these streamers were like, sure. okay, let's do it. I think that time is very, very, very much over. That said, the English is more of a special case because it was a copro. It's one of the things that makes it so interesting is it is a show about America

that is deeply European. It was filmed in Spain. The cast is primarily UK actors. So if you, I don't have access to the financials, I don't know what the profit sharing or spending was. there's a world where that goes to FX, and they promote it really well, and they market it really well. They age up, Emily Blint. You call it the old woman. There you go. Look at you. Now you're just flexing.

And they just got an old verse going. Chris closed his laptop and just drop that gem. This is one of those ones where it's just like, I guess I'm just grateful we have it. I don't know where else it would go, honestly. I feel like it slipped through the cracks. Do you want to do Andor or is Andor perfect where it is? Andor is a great one to end on. Well, because the reason I asked about Andor is because they actually did experiment with Andor, where they did show it on FX.

And then I believe they aired it on ABC. Around Thanksgiving, they put it on all their networks. Yes. I think it was on freeform as well. I think Andor is an example. I wish I wasn't saying this. I feel about it the way I feel about the English. Like, I can't believe we got this one.

Yeah. I can't believe this snuck past because I don't think it's going to happen again. In a period of expansion when these services and the companies who are underwriting them don't know what they have or what they want to be or even what's required to survive, you get a lot of wild swings. And if you look at, you would never think of Disney as a wildly risk-taking place. But in the first few years of development for Disney Plus, you had obviously all the Marvel shows. but also Willow, which has now been erased from history. There was development announced on nearly every property, some of which has come to the screen,

some of which has ended up on different networks, but they were trying to be a full service service in a lot of ways. And then they ran smack into, wait, what are we? This is mostly existing so people's children can watch Lion King 2 or Lion King 1 1.5 when they're homesick from school. what are we going to do about Hulu? What even are we? And then more specifically,

the same conversation was being had at Lucasfilm with like, what are we? What is Star Wars? And I think the hope was that Star Wars would be Tony Gilroy and Dave Faloni. I think that's probably still the hope.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying at the moment, it feels a lot more Dave Filoni than Tony Gilroy. And so I think in a more integrated and thoughtful company, you are allowing the different co-equal

spokes on the wheel to play with certain properties. And all of this is a long way of saying, and or is an FX show. It is a, that airs on Hulu, that has a tile maybe on pluse, but like, because it's all the same company, right? But I think it was just miscommunicated. Look, it's fine.

We get it. We're going to get a second season. No complaints. But I do think it was a, I do think the show was a missed opportunity. It seems like it is outside. of Disney Plus, this well-regarded, beloved thing. And even within the larger Star Wars community, I think it's pretty highly regarded.

And then when you go to Disney Plus, you're just kind of like, this thing sticks out like a sore thumb. Yeah. Next to the offerings there. The whole reason why Bob Eager spent all the money he spent on Marvel and Star Wars and why all of these companies are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to own the intellectual property of Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or whatever it is, is because they want to keep that stuff so that people will come to their service and pay the $15 a month.

But I do wonder if ever we will get to a point where we get back to, what was the Bob Backish line? Like we want to be dealers as well as like the street. Like I want to get my product. I want to sell the product as like a maker of stuff. But I'll take it to market.

And I do wonder if we would ever get a point where Star Wars was like, here's a bunch of the widgets, but you guys can go make it, HBO or Netflix or whatever, and you pay us the fee to use the intellectual property. I don't know, but you're right. FX, and it would have been an interesting event for FX to kind of do that kind of cross-promotion. It brings us back to the original conversation last week that sparked this entire idea, which was it used to seem like Netflix's biggest flaw was that it didn't have its deep library of IP and recognizable branded content.

and Disney's going to come in here with their $499 a month plan and blow everyone out of the water because they have the thing that everybody, the things that everybody wants. And you fast forward a couple years and we're talking about the limitations of Disney being like totally hamstrung by its own well, well chiseled identity to the point where there's an absolute breakdown happening within that company about like, can we put FX and Hulu on this app or people be offended by all these old men and women? like it doesn't fit, whereas Netflix is just like, fuck it, give me all of it.

And what do people respond to? They go to the place where they can get all of it. They got all of it from us today. We left it all out on the floor. And we should have, because we're still celebrating that National League Championship series. We left it all on the floor

just like the World Championship 2019 Philadelphia 76ers. This feels good. Wasn't it cool when the refs didn't call holding on James Bradbury and Jalen Hurts drove the Eagles down? feel for a chance. You sound like you're having.

I feel so heavy right now. An absolute break with reality right now. Because you're not even doing like any drama to it. You're like, this would make me feel good as if this happened. Well, it's just fun to finally like verbalize something I think about every night before I fall asleep. That's why you come in every day, exhausted. Exha. Thank you to Kaye, McMallon.

The best there is to do it. What podcast network do you think our show The Old Men should go on? Obviously Joe Rogan. There it is. Or if we're calling it the old man, it should go on an old man in three. That's right. But there's only one old man on that show, and there's both of us. Yeah, that's true.

Watch out, JJ. We'll be back on Monday. What was he? He won a ring with the Sixers. We'll be back on Monday. What are we going to be talking about? I regret to inform you I've run out of things to talk about after today. Well, then Monday should be a dazzling show.

Talk to you guys soon.