The Watch - Laura Linney of 'Ozark.' Plus: ‘Modern Family,’ ‘Top Chef,’ and ‘Better Call Saul’ | The Watch

Episode Date: April 10, 2020

There was not one, but two shows with desert-wandering scenes this week. Chris and Andy talk about ‘Better Call Saul’ S5E8 (4:50) and the penultimate episode of ‘Briarpatch’ and what goes into creating a scene like that (11:49). Then, they get on the line with Josh Phelps, who works at José Andrés’s World Central Kitchen, to talk about the organization's relief work (39:02). Finally Chris is joined by Laura Linney to talk about her electrifying role as Wendy on ‘Ozark’ (57:19). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Josh Phelps and Laura Linney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I just wanted to make sure you were listening to podcasts on Spotify. Here's how you do it. First, search for your favorite podcasts on Spotify's app. They have a library of over 750,000 pods at this point. So let's say you're searching for the rewatchables or the Dave Chang show or the ringer NBA show. Once you find them, click on the follow button. That's how you subscribe.

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And then there's 1.5 times, 2 times. And if you're completely insane, three times. Anyway, Spotify's app connects directly to many of the best automobiles in the world. It even has a car play feature. That's pretty cool. Best of all, it's free. Download Spotify on any device and you're good to go. Should you be embarrassed that you're not listening to podcasts on Spotify?

Well, I don't want to app shame you. But the answer, unfortunately, is yes. Make the move. Listen to podcasts on Spotify. Back to yours. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. What's in that day? Davis and Maine water bottle. It's Andy Greenwald. Wow, what a humbling moment for the star Better Call Saul. I don't know. Are we just going right into that show?

No, we can just, we can go back from. We can, we can do Saul. We can talk about all sorts of things. It's a packed show today, Greenwald. We have a couple of guests, which is pretty exciting stuff. On this show today,

we have Josh Phelps, who works with chef Jose Andres at the World Central Kitchen, and he came on. he's a pod listener, so it was really cool to have him on, and he came on to talk to us a little bit above that organization's mission during these really trying times. It was really cool to talk to him. And we also have an interview today with one of the stars of Ozark,

Laura Linney, who I talked to the other day. I wish people could see Chris's face. I wish people could see Chris's face. It is the same face that my younger daughter makes when Paw Patrol starts, where she just knows that all is right with the world for the next 21 minutes. It was great because we were having some connectivity issues just getting Laura on the phone online. So we decided to do it over a video chat. And it was just like, all of a sudden, Laura Linney was on my laptop, just being like, what's up? Let's talk. So she was great. We talked about

Ozark Season 3, and there are some spoilers in there. So if you haven't finished Ozark Season 3, you can check that out. But I just wanted to chop it up. Just do a post-passover hang with my guy. You know what I mean? Let's just chat a little bit. Some of us have the matzabal still bubbling on the stove. It's night too. Oh, right. How many nights does that go?

I mean, in our current world, I'm going to keep rocking this. At least I'm going to keep rocking the wine consumption, the sater levels of wine for at least another week or two. And if Elijah comes, you know, hey, I think we could all use the company. No, we are doing a second night because, you know, there's just the Zoom satyrs. Oh, right. You kind of want to break it up because you don't want all the family at once, which is actually not a bad thing about it. All right. So where are we starting?

We can spin the great wheel of culture. We've both been enjoying some stuff. We've made some surprising choices. Dealers' choice. You pick. Well, we could start with Saul. Okay. If you like, clearly Chris started our conversation off with a bang by referring to the moment when Jimmy McGill, now known as Saul Goodman, takes a long.

long swallow from a bottle filled with his own heated urine. Well, I mean, it was, I think it's just normal temperature urine. No, no, it's desert temp, I meant that it definitely was. Desert temp urine. Yeah. I'm really personally, I've seen a couple of castaway movies, you know, a couple of stranded on a boat movies. But I'm still kind of unclear about like the nutritional value of one's own fluids in that regard. I mean, I think low, but I guess the assumption is that there's some, even though that's, that there's some water content, right?

Right. Sure. Sure. In there. I mean, I guess we'll see how that works out for him. Maybe it's going to be a habit. Maybe he's like, this is my thing now. Yeah.

So obviously this was a big episode. This was a spectacular. spectacularly directed episode by Breaking Bad creator Vince Gillian. You know, it was thrilling to see so many of the New Mexican desert vistas that I now know really well and secretly the ones that are just behind the studio, which we shared with Better Call Saul. But very impressed with the entire episode. But I did have a question. And it's a sincere question.

And I wanted to get your take on it, which is to say, Mike Herman Trout, is essentially Superman, right? He is the most unstoppable force, one of the most unstoppable forces ever on television. Yeah. He took out seven cartel dudes with a rifle at distance in this episode. He seems generally untroubled

by a 30-mile trek through the desert and always knows exactly what to do and how to do it. And so this was the first episode where I kind of bumped on that a little bit. Like it made me feel a little less engaged because he is so stupendous. But the more I thought about that, the more I then remembered that the outcome of these characters' time in the desert is simply not in doubt.

This is one of the things that is built in to the fact that this is a prequel show. We know they survive and we know what happens to, well, we know what happens to Mike anyway and we know a lot of the next few years for Saul as well. knowing that, does it earn the omnipotence of Mike a little bit more? Because it doesn't waste time suggesting that he's somehow fallible to a degree that would be out of character for who he's become. Or is that just me talking myself into something that I'm naturally bumping on in a dramatic series? I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. It's not even a critique as much as it seems to be just like, I'm pointing this out.

I don't remember watching Breaking Bad and thinking that Mike is the kind of guy who could take out an entire cartel hit squad in the desert with a sniper rifle. That was never something... Yeah, right. And it doesn't help that Jonathan Banks is obviously older and better call Saul

than he was when he was making breaking bad. But I think what you're getting at, honestly, is a larger kind of interesting point about that episode, which was for as masterful as it was, it almost felt

a little bit low stakes. even though the stakes were higher than they'd ever been in, we're supposed to be introducing Jimmy to this concept of the extreme violence of the world that he's really diving into. Because we do know what the fates are for these characters, I guess I always assumed something like this would happen. I always assumed that he would be introduced to this kind of activity.

So, yeah, I kind of see your point. I see why you would be bumping up against it. I think as an experience, for me, the more harrowing moments are obviously Kim making the decision to introduce herself to Lalo. Yeah, that's what gave, as it always does. It's the Kim roll that gives the show its shot of uncertainty and stakes and danger.

That was incredibly satisfying scene. You know, I think just overall, it's just a beautiful exercise and set piece, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I think that some of the commentary that I've seen bubbling up after the episode aired, this actually came from Ellen Seppenwall, and I agree with it, is that

I think the way he first, raised it was Breaking Bad was a better story, but Better Call Saul has proved that Gilligan and Peter Gould and everyone else involved have become masterful storytellers. Yeah, better storytellers. So certainly better filmmakers, I would say. Yeah, certainly better filmmakers over the course of the, of the two runs. Do you get, are you, do you end Better Call Saul episodes and think to yourself, oh, what's going to happen next week, or are you still sort of in the present in the moment with it?

enjoying it week to week. Like, have you gotten it all? Like, how are they going to fit together these pieces? And how do they, you know, like, no. No. I'm, like, blissfully unmotivated to do that. I'm just happy that there's a new one to watch. Yeah.

Yeah, me too. I mean, I can't wait. So there's two more episodes of Better Call Saul. I kind of want to ask you a little bit because Better Call Saw obviously wasn't the only show there this week that had a desert episode. It wasn't the only show they aired on Mondays. and I wanted to ask you, like, watching Bagman, because Andy's, this past episode of Briar Patch

featured a long trek through the desert with two people who looked looking for salvation of some kind. And it was just an incredible two-hander that second half of the episode with Jay and Rosario and Briar Patch. People haven't checked it out yet. We don't have to like spoil, spoil it, but I highly recommend they watch it because it functions, it's probably my favorite episode of the season, I think.

And I'm not just because I, got to see some of it get shot, which was pretty amazing to see it finally on screen. But I was wondering if watching Bagman, you also were like, oh yeah, I know, I know the kind of stuff they had to sort of grapple with being out there with the elements and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, first of all, it is incredibly funny that we ended up on the same night. Not only just because what are the odds of that for the coincidence, but also that, you know, I've talked a couple times in this podcast about running into Melissa Bernstein, the executive producer of Better Call Saul, who directed last week's episode

and her telling me all about this big episode that Vince had done, not realizing that it was two people walking in the desert, that originally we were on Thursday nights, that originally we were one week out of sync with this episode, and for all the different things that had to align for us to be an hour apart on television. It was pretty funny and pretty cool.

I don't think we were in the same locations. It seemed like they went a little bit further out, but I did recognize a road that's right by the studio. Okay. And a couple little details like that. I mean, the main thing that I saw and that I was both, you know, incredibly admiring of and also jealous of was they had so much more time. You know, there are beautiful, beautiful composed shots, not just of Jimmy when the two twins get out of the car and opposite sides of his head, but just, you know, top down shots, just a whole assortment of looks from cameras and setups, certainly in that beautifully state. gun battle, which is from Saul's perspective, but also accounts for all these different moving

pieces. They just had many days to do it, you know, and my memories of being in the desert are super fun. We had an amazing time. I think this is our best episode, and I think Arcahia Stevenson, who directed the episode, who I wish we could have had on the podcast this week is a, is a superstar and a brilliant, brilliant. And she directed some Channel Zero? She directed a season of Channel Zero. She directed an episode of Legion, and then was so, you know, gracious to come and play with us in the desert and really took to it. But we basically had two or three days max. The biggest day was a day of Jay and Rosario handcuffed together walking and having long conversations. And that day started at probably 10 a.m. of them in the sun. And it is

as hot as it looks and dusty and windy. And then we went into a night shoot on the same day of them digging their own grave at gunpoint, which Chris knows, and even if no one else ever knows, it's fine with me, is that whole scene as a tribute to one of our favorite James Crumley novels, Border Snakes. And we were on this mesa out behind the studio, again, the same studio that we share with Better Call Saul. And among other things out there on the mesa, there's also, there's some, like, housing developments out there, and there's a school.

And, but there's also a, like, amphitheater, an outdoor amphitheater. And the night we had Jane Rosario, and I want to repeat this again, standing in a grave at like 10 p.m. And I think Rosario and I had just returned from Toronto. Kiss was playing their farewell concert in Albuquerque at the amphitheater. Are you serious? So a lot of the footage of them being held at gunpoint in this very tense moment digging their grave was naturally scored in the moment to the plangent guitar chords of Beth. Wow.

Like looming out over the desert. It was so loud and it was so awful for our sound guy that, you know, thank God, Jay and Rosario are who they are because they ultimately thought it was really funny. And more than five people suggested we just try to license those songs. And I was like, we don't have that kind of budget. But they were, they're great sports about it. And I think that I said this on Instagram that Kat Colbert, who plays Harley, who's the guy was holding them at gunpoint, is Jay Ferguson's best friend and just happened to cast him.

And just ran, like, it wasn't because Jay told me to. It's because he was suggested for the part. I thought he was great. They were best friends in high school. And, you know, they were high school buddies, the two of them and Sarah Gilbert. And so for them to play people who hated each other was a treat. And they had a really good time doing it. But yeah, anyway.

Yeah, I was hanging out when we did the podcast with Jay from the set. Oh, that's right. if you guys go back in the archives, and if you listen to the J. Ferguson pod, it's us recording. The date was like, before you guys went on to the desert or after? I think it was before.

Before. So we were just, I was there the day that they're shooting the scenes between Clyde and the senator in, uh, in, in Felicity's apartment, correct?

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, you know, just basically the difference being and, and again, not to compare the episodes whatsoever, but you asked what I saw,

I mean, again, they're filmmaking and their storytelling. It's clearly on its own level, and I don't even mean to presume otherwise. But I do see money and time that makes me obvious. No, I mean, like, I think that that was one of the coolest things about being on set for Briar Patch was just the actual experience of something like that scene I'm referring to between the Senator and Clyde and a couple other characters in the scene. It's just how painstaking it is to assemble what would seem to viewers to be the most basic scenes, like a conversation in an interior room that's in a controlled environment, and you can

control the lighting and all of that, but just getting all the different takes, all the different angles. And even while you were shooting indoors, I think you had to turn the power off at one point because of a lightning storm. Yeah, there's lightning delays, which just kills you. And so you think about, and, you know, one of the things that I'm most proud of in the episode is Rosario has a really emotional scene, and I just think she's brilliant. And she's always brilliant, but it's one of her, if not her best moment on the show. At this moment where she realizes her own complicity in her sister's death, you look at it,

and we had three takes, I think, to choose from. And she brings it every time, but we had three takes. And, you know, the other thing about this episode, it's out there now, and I hope people enjoy it. But friend of the podcast, Tim Simons, shows up and is just a great friend of ours and a wonderful guy, and so brilliant. We're so grateful to him.

I love his character. I love his performance. He was there for one day. and we had one day on this weird, beautiful set that our locations guy and our production designer Richard found that was like this abandoned drive-in movie theater slash summer camp slash bowling alley

that was just literally falling apart on the edge of the highway. And we just had one day. And we had one day with Tim and we had one day with a camel named Skittles. And unfortunately, neither was more important than the other. But anyway, I hope people check it out. If anyone, if people ask me about this show

in the future, like this is the one that I would hold up probably is the one that kind of got what we were wanted most. Yeah, it's an incredible episode. Pushing the serality, pushing the humor, pushing the emotion, pushing the strangeness,

pushing, pushing all of it. I want to get to our interview with Josh Phelps soon, but I thought we could chat a little bit about some of the other stuff we've been watching this week. Last night I did actually,

it was kind of surreal. My wife and I actually watched TV. Like, we sat in the living room and watched TV like in time because we watched Survivor and then we watched The Modern Family series finale. Yeah.

Survivor, I let Riley Maccatee handle on The Pot of Spoken, but Modern Family was actually, you know, quite moving in places. There's a couple of scenes in the episode. I don't know if you plan on watching it. I think you watched the first, like, early, early in Modern Family, but you probably haven't watched in a while. I haven't kept up. How's the family?

They're still kicking. There was no major losses in this episode, which I think some people had speculated that maybe this series would end with Jay Passing. away, which I think would have been not quite tonally in step with where the show had been going. It is a sitcom. It's not bad man. But there was a couple of moments where you could

tell that the actors were obviously sincerely like crying in scenes that they were doing. Like they were like sincerely you're going to miss each other. And you know, you've got to wonder with the exception of Gray's and I obviously like the Law and Order shows will ever see a sitcom that goes like 11

years again. I mean, I'm sure I'll proven wrong and that there's like a some CBS show that's on season nine anyway. But, uh, yeah, watching that. And I remember when that show premiered and kind of like, it was this huge sensation and it's Emmys. It had like the Emmys on lock for a long time. Five year streak, I think. Yeah. And, and. But I would say that there's like a real strong prime run of this show where not only is it just like very enjoyable as like a nightlight watch, but they do some really nice stuff with, uh, narrative complexity with like, how you intertwine A, B, and C plots.

There are some folks were talking about this today on the Watches' Facebook group, and I was going to jump in because there are a bunch of episodes that are really formally creative, and, like, it's just one of those weird things where you just have these strange characters in your life for like 10 years, and it was odd to kind of, like,

watch the goodbye. Also, you know, even when it was maybe not the hippist or coolest thing to be watching anymore on TV, it had a murderer's row of writers going through its offices, you know, and there were, it almost served as like a, I don't know whether you'd want to call it like a finishing school or maybe more like a wonderful year, like a wonderful fellowship at Yado for people, you know, like the way to, like novelists get the opportunity to go like be taken care of and fed and paid to work on their art.

Because whenever there would be a beloved show, whether it was a, you know, relatively critically adored or cult show like community or a show of a little bit more success like a rest of development or even something like the office. Sure. When those shows would end, recognizable names from those staffs might filter into the modern family room. And some of them stayed longer than others and some of them remained, you know, made bigger impacts than others.

But it's kind of amazing. And I guess, hold on, let me take a step back and reframe that. I guess it's not amazing when you have an money printing Emmy machine at a major network that they're able to attract a lot of. talents and keep it. That's just how it works. But it is a testament to the fact that even though the way we cover things has changed so significantly over the last 10 years, that this podcast isn't checking for modern family. I don't know if, you know, other websites or we're recapping it or whatever it is that we're doing these days on the internet. But in terms of the standard

that the show held itself to and that the fans demanded of it, it was incredibly high throughout. Every time I check back into it, it was firing, right? Yeah. And, you know, I think it basically It basically suffered from like the same thing that all family-based sitcoms eventually suffer from. If they're lucky enough to go on for as long as modern family did, which was the kids got older. And once the kids get older, I mean, all the characters got older, obviously. But when the kids kind of graduate out of like any needing of parenting per se, it sort of removes a little bit of like the thing that makes the show kind of what it is. But they were always really inventive. I think that there's like a middle season, like from one to like four or five, you, it's, you know, it's hard to find like really bad episodes.

And then, like, after that, like, it goes up and down. But I always thought Eric Stone Street was one of the funniest guys on TV. So, yeah, it was interesting to watch that kind of close. And then it was even more surreal because I think you obviously, ABC probably planned, like, this huge send-off. But they're all doing, like, Zoom chats with Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah. Right. I mean, they were probably imagining, like, you know, when the cast of Cheers went on the Tonight Show totally hammered up to the last episode. Or I think Parks and Rec did that.

with Fallon. For Seth Myers, I don't remember. But it's a weird time. To be promoting something, or at least to be presenting something, you certainly can't expect. Or saying goodbye to something, yeah. Yeah, at this particular moment.

You know, we fired up last night? What? The Mark Maren stand-up special on Netflix. Oh, I watched that. It's excellent. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's so strange that that was recorded before all this happened

because so much of the episode is about, like, end of the world panic. It's incredible. I mean, I highly recommend this to anyone. Maybe people have already checked it out because it's been up for a minute. It's called End Times Fun. There's a moment in this comedy special

recorded months ago where he's like, something big is going to have to happen to basically shake the etch-a-sketch of this society if it's ever going to function again. Now, so far, I would say that this etch-a-sketch is as dysfunctional as ever,

if not worse. But it is creepily prescient to watch the show. But also, you know, I have just, I listen to him constantly on his podcast. And I'm such a huge fan of him as a- Do you listen to the first 10 minutes? Not so often. Okay. Sometimes. But generally I just see who the interview guest is and skip to the to the actual chat. Almost always. I mean, I get enough of a sampling to kind of check in where he is with his relationship with his ex-girlfriend, the painter, and the cats and everything. But I generally just go right in for the interviews because I just find them to be still among the very best out there.

And then to watch this and be like, oh yeah, he's been a, top-tier stand-up for 35 years. It almost felt unfair, but it was, it was incredibly enjoyable. And actually, the reason both of us got on the same page to do it, and this is extremely narrow, uh, late period of this podcast, Dadcore to say this, but my wife and I both individually, not at the same time, individually, listened to Marin on Terry Gross. Oh, really? And it's a great interview also, because it happened right as this was, the current world was shattering and happening. And, you know, there's something, and I kind of feel like I touched on this a little bit, and we talked about why Ugly Delicious, I think is just so phenomenal this year.

There's a very specific strain of pop culture engagement for me over the last decade is one of my favorite things, which is when people who are either brash or abrasive or very, very, very much one way begin to diversify and mellow. and become more emotionally present in public. It's like I guess I call it Therapy Corps. No, I mean, Bordane certainly did that. It was Bordane. That was the one for me.

And then watching it happen with Dave Chang as well. And then watching it, you know, Marin's always been on front street with all of his anxieties and stuff. But basically, as you hear him in the Terry Gross thing, and you can kind of see it reflected in the comedy special, he's like, I used to be a hypochondriac. Now I know it's something that I struggle with. And here's how I'm approaching to it. And it's a kind of earned income maturity. that if you, you know, if you invest in a person stock. You're a big fan of growth, man. You love growth. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. No, because you remember those early Bourdain

seasons were like, there was, you know, that was when he was more the bad boy of cooking and the bad boy of restaurants and he would just kind of come on leather jacket, earring and be like, fuck this kind of chicken. Or if you make this food, like, you should basically be like decertified as a restaurant. And then, you know, as the years go on and I think as his mission became more clear to him and it was such an important one. It's just sort of like trying to understand his fellow human through food and art. It obviously changed him so profoundly. Yeah, I find it to be one of the more engaging and emotionally affecting arcs of the last few decades, basically, watching someone whose brand was a swaggering certainty go out into the world,

get knocked on his ass, and basically be like, all I come back with on these trips is, questions and more questions to becoming more and more comfortable of that. It's a good segue to some food talk because we have Josh Phelps who works for one of Tony Bourdain's great friends, Jose Andres, and his charity organization. I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but you made a wild choice during this quarantine that you almost casually admitted to me, which was you said you were, and I can't even believe this, honestly, because I didn't think anyone did stuff like this anymore. You said that you and your dear wife started. Top Chef.

I started in season 17. Season 17, year 15 or 16 of the show. You tell me. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I've watched every episode of the show as it aired from the beginning. This is kind of like what

Survivor is for you. Yes. I've been very plain that as a still early period swaggering Bordain type, I will never watch Survivor. I have no questions. I'm not expecting you to watch Survivor.

And yet, you came to me here. What brought this on? And how are you feeling? Because this is just returned on Bravo. It's the second All-Star season that the show has ever done. Yeah. And I talked about this a little bit with Juliet. Juliet and I talked on Bachelor Party this week,

a little bit about some of the TV that we were watching. And we talked a little bit about Top Chef. But fantasy really was just imploring me and my wife to check it out this season, mostly because of L.A. because it was about Los Angeles and that there was this episode, specifically the second episode, is dedicated to Jonathan Gold.

And, you know, it's a competition show. It's my kind of competition show where I think it's a little bit more about people's ability to play the game that is on the screen rather than any of the crap that happens off screen or in the margins. Like, there's not like a lot of house drama. There's not a lot of like this person

and like vilifying of people. They're all kind of like, I'm trying to win top chef, but like preserve a bit of my huge. humanity in the process. But so I mean, I'd always had this block where it was like, I just, without being able to taste the food that people are making, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to get any kind of sensory excitement out of it. But over the last couple of years, I've obviously, I think I've mentioned really getting into the, obviously, the Bon Appetit. YouTube channel.

I've, while I've been home on quarantine, I've been really enjoying the YouTube videos of the chef Jay Kenji Alt, who has been doing these kind of GoPro videos. in his kitchen, but he's making like mac and cheese, casadillas or caccio Pepe. And it's just like watching him go through the steps and even take time to like clean off his frying pan while something is still on the stove has just been strangely like educational and also soothing.

So I thought like the time is right. And we checked it out. And I don't think we can say enough about how good the second episode is, the Jonathan Gold episode. Really moved to tears multiple times by that. And also just like in general, the food seems like very, very top-notch, obviously. But I guess I kind of feel like I understand it now.

Before I just was always like, you can say Gramalata 45 times. I'm still not going to know what you're making. But this time around for whether it's because they're cooking in L.A. because they're visiting Los Angeles restaurants, they're incorporating a lot of stuff around Los Angeles. And as I was kind of talking about Juliet, it just kind of makes me miss the city that I'm living in. that's a beautiful reason to watch the season. I couldn't agree with you more. I think that also you've zeroed it on why I've always loved the show, which is that it's, it's primarily about cooking as art and expression, but also it never shies away from the kind of wrote craftsmanship of it. I mean, there are the challenges where you have to, you know, shuck oysters or open clams, you know, or chiffonad, a whole bunch of stuff. And you see the raw skill that goes in.

do it. And then you see in the individual expressions of the contestants where those two tracks come together of here are the skills that I have combining with here's the person who I am and who I want to be and how I want to express myself. And it's kind of inspiring and beautiful. It's always funny and weird and catastrophic, but it's always very human and not petty. It really is ultimately about what they're expressing and the judges and the people come on are very respectful of that. I actually, I mean, I've been enjoying it. I'm so happy the show is back in my life. I'm so happy that some of the, truly the very, very best who have participated in recent years are back.

And those are people like Melissa and Gregory and Eric, who are my favorites. So let me ask you something, because as I, I've only obviously ever watched literally three episodes of this show. And it's the first three episodes this season. How do you determine who your favorites are outside of personality? Well, so I would say personality helps a lot, but also point of view, you know, the way that people cook, the way they approach food, the way they surprise you with what they're going to do and how they adapt to it. Eric, who's from D.C. was on the last season and was a standout. He made it to the final three. No one on the show has ever cooked from an African perspective before and brought ingredients, flavor profiles, cooking techniques, history and culture in that way, which makes him already fascinating. and such an incredible ambassador for something that the show has been lacking.

And I think people's imaginations and pallets have been lacking too. So that's one of the reasons why it locks in. Other people like Gregory, clearly one of the most, and Melissa, actually, both of them, two of the most skilled technically ever to be on the show, but ran up against people who were more either competitive or polished or more sure of themselves. So you do get that. We were talking about Bourdain and people, you get to see that growth as it develops. My issue with this season, which I did not expect to say, because I've been advocating

for an All-Star season. thought it was overdue. The last All-Star season was one of the very best they ever did. I wish this wasn't an All-Star season. And one of the reasons I wish that is because this show has been around for so long now, for so many generations of cooks and chefs that the last season, the Charleston season, which was exceptional, proved, there is a whole new generation of talent ready to come on the show. There were a couple years in the middle where it felt like the people who were ripe to go early went,

and then everyone now knew what this was and either made. major league chefs weren't letting their number twos take six weeks off, 10 weeks off, whatever it was to do the show, or people are coming onto it for potentially the wrong reasons, um, shouts to Jacobi and Juliet. Enough time has passed now with there's just a different generation of cooks who are approaching it differently and have a different sense of themselves and the industry. And I was ready to fall in love with new people and new points of view. And I'm actually kind of, and I can't believe I'm saying this.

I mean, no disrespect to them. I'm kind of ready to turn the page on. people who have enjoyed for years. And specifically, like, Leanne Wong, who seems like a wonderful person, and I wish you're nothing but success in a professional and personal life, has been coming back to the show since season one. Brian Malarkey since season three. Jen Carroll, Philly Girl, whom I love and was one of my all-time, all-time favorites, was on their short-lived, like, Top Chef Careers Reality Show.

And I'm like, I think it's time to let other people shine. You know, there's just such a marked divide between the people who have, quote, unquote, played the game, both on camera and off. And those who from the last four or five years were just like, okay, now I get it. I'm really ready to take off. And they've done this before. Last few seasons have been, like mostly new people, but then maybe one or two returning people who have come back and just savaged others, like Brooke Williamson, who won a few years ago after being the runner-up years before that. Oh, so she comes on and she just vaporizes people because she just knows how to do stuff in the top-chep way? It was kind of, it was one of the more incredible runs in recent Top-Chef history. one of the best contestants a couple years ago, the finale, the worst finale they ever did. I wrote about it at length on Grandland. Tom Colicchio tweeted at me, you're right. One of the great moments of my career. She lost a Kristen Kish, who was also phenomenal. And then she came back, you know, like a little something to prove, a little nervous, along with two other returnees who were dropped into the mix, like in a very, what I imagine, like, that's a more reality show move. Some savvy veterans are suddenly there. And then she was a buzzsaw because she was so good and knew so much. And so anyway, that's my sort of old head take on this season.

So it's interesting because, like, I like Survivor this season so much because of the exact reasons why you're saying Top Chef is a little bit below for you because it's kind of, this is Winners at War. So everybody who's playing on Survivor this year is one Survivor before. And in Sandra's case, she's won twice. And the level of gameplay is so high. and they've stripped out all the excess fat of Survivor. There's no like three or four episodes of getting to know you. There's no two or three episodes of people making really, really stupid rookie mistakes.

Pretty much every episode has been something I haven't seen before, or at least they're doing something that's been in every Survivor season, but they're doing it at a level that I've never watched before. So I've actually really enjoyed that because it gets rid of a lot of like the kind of more TV aspects of the competition. But I guess I could see if I had been watching Top Chef for 17 years and a lot of these faces have been coming through, I'd be like, I'm fine seeing other people do it. Yeah, I think your point, though, is very well made and well taken.

I think that what I wish they could have done then was fashioned. And I think I kind of respect that they don't welcome winners back. But I wish they could have fashioned a season, maybe not called it all-stars, but just brought back a season of killers. Basically, like, the runners up. Oh, yeah. The ones who are from the last five or six years, you know what I mean? The ones whose knives are super sharp and who are really ready to go.

Okay. So it's less like people who I just don't think have the quon. You know what I mean? Like we've either seen them or they're just not hungry enough anymore or maybe they're just not ready to play in the same way. Who are there maybe to kind of because they're fan favorites, you know, or they think they're ready to do it, but they're not. this season is going to contract, obviously they all do, and I do think the last like six to eight episodes of this season are going to be amazing with the people that they have there.

I can't leave. I've been given this a lot of thought this week as we anticipate by the time people hear this episode of the pod, they'll probably be able to watch Top Chef tonight. But I have been thinking all week about what my Top Chef persona would be if I was a... Oh. Yeah.

You want to hear it? It's basically, physically and like, you know, presentation-wise, real Eastern promises. So like big, big wolf tat on the chest, maybe a teardrop, just to let people know how I get down. And then my food would just be all flavor town stuff. So just like jalapeno cream cheese injected into everything. And just like, I just feel like I would always intimidate people so that I wouldn't have to do the things I don't know how to do. Would you bring one of those like flavor-induced? injecting syringes that they sell on TV later night.

Yeah, but I wouldn't be using it for flavor injection, if you know what I'm saying. There it is. There's the Eastern promise. I know you can keep. Okay, so we're going to get into our interviews that we have this week. I got to say, there was one moment during the Laura Linne interview where I asked her if she had watched this season of Ozark yet, and she talked about how she has been homeschooling her kindergarten-age son, so she's just real tired and hasn't had the time yet. I've never felt closer to Laura Linney. in my life. And I'm saying that as someone who, as you know, Chris, I was hoping you'd ask about it. We studied with the same acting professor in college. And it's shocking that we didn't end up in the same

place. So we have our interview with Josh Phelps from World Central Kitchen and my interview with Laura Linney from Ozark. When Andy and I are back on Monday, I think you'd safe to assume that we will cover devs, the penultimate episode of devs, which is actually up now. And let's also hit run the Vicki Jones show on HBO executive produced by Phoebe Wallerbridge. And that stars Domino Gleason, Emerit Weaver, who are too big watch people. For us, not for them. They don't listen to our podcast. Just to tee up this Josh Phelps interview, it was really cool to just get a different perspective on our current situation. The world, Josh is someone who probably has a lot in common with a lot of other listeners, honestly, although he got to play basketball with Alan Iverson,

but is, you know, out there doing incredible work for many communities in this country right now. It's a really worthy cause. Chris and I support it. I hope other people support it too. But if anything, you know, what I took out of listening to just talking to Josh was just like you don't have to feel completely powerless even though we're sitting in our homes right now. So hopefully we'll do some more interviews like this over the next few weeks. Yeah, and Josh mentions a couple of times where you can donate to the World Central Kitchen.

So we really encourage you if you're able to, that would be great. And otherwise, stay safe, stay inside, be well, and enjoy these interviews. We'll see you on Monday. Later, man. Chris and I are so excited to be joined on the line, on the Zoom line by Josh Phelps, who is the Relief Operations Manager for World Central Kitchen. Josh, thank you for joining us today. Thanks for having me.

Josh, how does it feel to be so much more profoundly important than a group of podcasters? Oh, stop. Oh, look. You know, we were talking about, I know we were tweeting about, you know, how we intake of pop culture. And honestly, podcasts are what, at least for me, what I take in a lot more than, you know, visual media while we're out on missions. So thank you. Well, we appreciate that. Chris's head is already exploding because he talked about early this week.

So we should cut that off there. I think I wanted to start, Josh. I mean, we want to hear more about you and what you're doing, what you do in general and specifically what you're doing now during this critical time. in our country. But for people who aren't familiar with the incredible organization that Chef Jose Andres began, I believe, 10 years ago now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about World Central Kitchen? Yeah, of course. So yeah, it started about 10 years ago after the earthquake in Haiti. And Jose went down there. I wanted to, you know, help not just by cooking for people, but then by leaving lasting impression. So he started a, you know, a culinary program,

which is still going today. So chefs go through that at coldest chefs, and then they move on into culinary careers, you know, all over the world. And that was ongoing, you know, for seven, eight years. And then, you know, in 2017 during Hurricanes Harvey and Maria, he started to respond to disaster relief in a more sort of, you know, actionable way.

Like he went to Houston during Harvey. And then he saw what was happening in Puerto Rico. People were eating MREs, you know, from kids up to, you know, to, you know, old men and women. So he said that, you know, there's food there. Let's go. And he just went and he knew there was food on the shelves.

He knew chefs. So he just mobilized and started to cook, you know, on these huge paella pans that can feed you. Every one you turn over can feed like 400 people. At one point, I think they did 150,000 meals a day using the stadium there, the arena. And I think ended up doing about four million meals over the months that we were there. And then just sort of ever since then, you know, he, likes to, I always butcher the quote, wherever there's a fight so hungry people may eat,

we are there from, I believe, the Graves-Sibrat, but, you know, we've sort of taken on that credo and whenever there is a disaster, especially domestically, but, you know, we've been all over the world Southeast Asia, we were just in Japan responding to the quarantine ship in Yokohama, Hurricane Dorian, where we're still active in the Bahamas, and then, you know, all the wildfires in California, and then, you know, hurricanes in the U.S., floods, stuff like that. So currently extremely active for the COVID response in about 80 plus cities in the U.S. and then also still going and do a lot of humanitarian crisis work now. So we're in the borders of Brownsville and Matamoros in Tijuana, in Kukuta, Colombia,

where Venezuelans are crossing every day due to the conditions there. And then also maybe five to seven cities up and feeding first responders and more in Spain where Jose's from. quite, this is completely different than what we do, but we adapt. So I guess in some ways it's the same. Yeah, I was going to ask, what are some of the, I mean, obviously this is just such a unique experience for so many people. What's different about how you guys are working during COVID versus in a hurricane response or something like that? Yeah, so in a hurricane response, it's usually like a fairly isolated area. All the systems there are offline, but, you know, we can bring in field kitchen equipment.

We can find a kitchen that is still usable and set that up. And, you know, the damage happened. And then every day is sort of getting incrementally better. For this, you know, one, it's everywhere, right? I mean, there's no place in the U.S. where this isn't affecting. It doesn't make sense to spin up a large kitchen and bring a lot of people together just because of the obvious safety concerns and people who, you know, are told mostly to be closely distance and isolate.

So what we're doing is, you know, people still need to eat, though. And one of the things that Jose had an op-ed the other day in the New York Times is that, you know, the restaurant industry contributes, you know, employs 20 times more people than like an airline industry and contributes four times to the economy. But that's all you ever hear about in the bailouts, right? It's like airlines and other industries. And, of course, they deserve to get help also. But, like, there are restaurants ready to work.

They know how to, especially in terms of health, you know, if a restaurant doesn't, you know, follow certain health rules, then they usually won't be in business. So they're sort of perfectly well placed to react to something like this. I'll be it with, you know, a little bit more extra care with the masks and the gloves and the social distancing. So we are just sort of employing local restaurants nationally when we can. And then when we hit these large numbers, we're working with a group called Revolution Foods that can, healthy meals for kids. And obviously they have a lot of capacity right now. And so there's, you know, we're doing probably 100,000 extra meals a week for LA United School District, 60,000 in Oakland working with the eat learn play, which is Steph and Aisha Curry's Foundation.

We never, you know, say no. If somebody reaches out to us for help, we try and figure out a way, whether that's to be there, give advice on logistics or, you know, support, you know, the restaurants in this area. So here we're kind of in the office in D.C., 18, 20 hours a day, sort of trying to manage the response from afar, but, you know, do the most with the minimum, I guess. Well, it sounds like you guys are doing the maximum, which is so admirable and so incredible. And, you know, I am. I know many people are incredibly grateful for the work you do. I said at the beginning, your title, Relief Operations Manager, it sounds like there are a lot of relief operations right now. What are you, how are you, how are you

managing? I mean, literally, what is your job right now? And how are you? I guess the second part of the question is, what is it from, is it cooking? Is it managing? Is it what? What allows you at this moment to be as flexible as both the circumstance and Jose Andres require? Yeah. You know, yeah, there is a lot going on and a lot of it is just, you know, having the right people who want to work with you and being able to delegate, which is, you know, a skill I've had to learn a lot, a lot more in the last couple months, but just over the last couple years, too. I mean, I had a medical research background, you know, was managing projects, data for pre-clinical drugs, right? Like oncology drugs that weren't on the market yet. And then I had some ties to Puerto Rico and some ties to Guatemala. So I volunteered a few

times. And then I just kind of stuck around that was able to work remote. And then, you know, World Central Kitchen had like three or four people. Now we're up to 40 in the last couple years. And so basically, people come to volunteer. And then we do. don't let them leave and bring them all first as contractors. And then, you know, the people who are great have started to come on full time. And that's happened in the last few weeks. We've pulled the trigger with some amazing people that were like, look, you know what, this is the time. And now they're here, you know, whether working remotely or some people in the office with us.

We're not like a volunteer. I wouldn't say reliant organization, but we love working with them. And in the end, if people are great as we grow, we're able to bring those on. And that's how I can get my job done. So I can kind of, you know, a few of us are in the office sort of triaging just thousands of emails every day, phone calls, you know, Zoom, Zoom calls 12 hours a day. And then, you know, working with our teams across the nation to sort of delegate and, you know, sign up restaurants, sign up agencies, talking to every mayor, you know, in every large city in the U.S. and things like that. So it's crazy. It's very new.

It's not like something I would say I've been used to. I kind of want you to do mayor power rankings for us. But what I really want to ask is, you know, I think that right now, all of our listeners and really everybody, they want to help. Like, everybody I know is like I really just feel like a kind of pang inside that I want to do more. What can people do to help World Central Kitchen? Is it donations? Is there volunteers? opportunities? Yeah, I mean, donations are always amazing. And for us, donations, 100% of them go right

back into the meals. You know, none of it goes into our overhead. Like, that's covered separately. So anything, anyone donates. And if they want, I mean, one thing, too, is like, if somebody donates and says, I want this to be for L.A., then, like, legally, we have to spend it in L.A. So you can really sort of, you know, hyper-localize your support if you want to do it that way. You know, in D.C., there actually are a few volunteer opportunities. So, you know, Jose wanted to have an stadium in case things got worse here. So now we have a stadium. We're cooking at Nats Park. And that allows chefs to, I guess, cook safely and socially distant. It's pretty amazing, though. They've been great. We've been, we're in talks with arenas and stadiums all over, including in L.A.

Just as contingency plan, you know, I hope you don't have to use it, but it does allow for that sort of space and a large operation if you have to spend up to like 50,000 meals a day. So that's pretty cool. I did go to the walkthrough, but like I haven't been down there yet. We're so it's so our office is right at like 14th and you near the 930 club and like literally just like back and forth every day from there. So there's something kind of incredible about the work that you guys do and also particularly this moment where obviously for millions of people around the world are people in our own country who are food insecure at other times. You know, being fed is the most basic and the most appreciated thing that you can give. But at this moment, food and hospitality and restaurants and

cooking have taken on such an intense central focus on people's lives, whether it's like people on Instagram learning how to bake sourdough, which I have a lot of opinions about, or, you know, more, more, not all of them good, but, you know, or more profoundly just like the role that that restaurants play in our lives, because I think people who are comfortable, and fortunate enough to be able to go to restaurants a lot and go out, eat out. You know, it's like a nice thing to do. But I think people are realizing that at their heart, restaurateurs and cooks are givers, right, and caregivers.

And it matters so much to them. And so I've been so blown away to see how many people whose livelihoods have just been blown out of the water. You know, they may never be able to reopen or be able to hire people back are insisting on staying open to feed and provide or pivot. You know, we're seeing four-star restaurants in New York pivot to being relief kitchens. And it's just a powerful illustration of something that clearly Jose Andres has always known and built this organization to embody. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, and that's the thing. You know, we, he realized that, like, when we first, like when this mission first started, of course, our, what we want to do is feed the most people possible. But then, you know, it sort of pivoted from not just, oh, let's, let's feed everybody do. Like, we can't, we know we can't do it ourselves. And who we can do it with is the restaurant community. community. And they're also one of those communities in need. And like you said, like we have in D.C. working on a pilot with Uber for delivery, taking out, you know, all of their costs. So there's no 30 percent. That was another thing. People want to pivot to takeout, but then the delivery

services take a huge chunk of that. So we're working, and I think it got announced yesterday, or maybe it's today, but like all of the delivery services, we're working on a partnership with them so that restaurants who come on board to work with us will have no delivery fees. So then they get to keep 100% of that. We're finding the need, whether it be the hospital, the senior home, and then we're working with the restaurant to fill those orders. And yeah, it's like Michelin Star restaurants have pivoted to takeout. And they're food out.

But it's not just that. You know, we're working with in, you know, PG County, Maryland, working with the local Peruvian chicken place to feed people out there. So, you know, it runs the gamut. And it really does bring into focus, like, how much that industry means to the world. You know, we're on the phone with, you know, chefs in Spain, today just a chef in Montreal, people in London. In that industry, like you said, there's certain folks who may not be able to make it back, but we're trying to, you know,

at least the most people we can help pull back from that brink we want to, and that's the only way that all that this is going to work too. I mean, there's so many people in need, they can't leave their house, grocery stores close, like the largest grocery store down 14th Street here in DC, someone, you know, supposedly got sick, and then that store's done. You know, that's it. So, you know, the options are, are not on the table so much. So it's really important. I probably should have said earlier, too, that I'll get in trouble, but to donate, it's wck.org slash donate when you teed that up for me. So let me get that in there. We'll say it at the beginning, too. Yeah, we could also, we could have it in the tweet for the show itself. Awesome. And, you know, obviously the focus was talking about

your present work, but you let something slip in the email that you sent me after I reached out, which is that you are clearly like blood family of this podcast because you alluded to early days engaging on some level with the patron saint of this podcast, Alan Iverson, and potentially the other saints of this podcast. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Newport News, Virginia. Holy crap. Yeah. Yeah. And so he played in my district. I didn't have play against him, like, I guess, officially because of his, you know,

the BS legal problems that he had that are well documented in the, in some of those documentaries. And, you know, obviously went on to play at Georgetown and then for the Sixers, who, and then at that time, too, I mean, also, that was when, like, the clips in Farrell were coming up.

And he's actually been great. He's a friend of Jose's Ferell. So, I'm, you know, I was talking to people in the office about how, you know, the, the clip song in Virginia where there isn't anything to do but cook would be so great. But unfortunately, he's not talking about paella. Yeah. And Pusha T opened a ramen place in D.C. like a week or two ago or a month or two ago.

It was super random. That's so great to hear. Listen, Josh, we cannot thank you enough for the work that you're doing and for coming on and telling our listeners about it. Tell people again the place to go to donate or to get involved. They can go to WCK.org. And because you were so kind and said that you were listening to us during some of these stressful moments. Is there a hot take or that you want to attack or defend or something that you would like

us to cover going forward? Do you want to give us like a devs review? Or just be on Budsman. Is there something we got wrong that we need to revisit because the floor is yours? Well, so I will say over the last three weeks, I've come home and I've tried to watch devs and also Westworld. And I just realize it's too late and I'm not getting it. So then I watch 15 minutes of an episode of Tiger King and fall asleep. So I'm still not even... But that's about, that's the, my pop culture intake right now for the last three weeks. It's kind of sad. What I'm hearing there from Josh is that he also doesn't like AI. So I feel like he's on the, he's on the right side of history. That's right.

Josh, thank you so much. Please stay in touch. Let us know, keep letting us know what people can do to help and what you guys are up to and we'll keep letting our listeners know and we're so grateful for all the work you guys are doing. Yeah, man, thank you so much for the work you're doing. I'm honored. Appreciate it. Thanks again to Josh Phelps from the World Central Kitchen. If you're interested in contributing to World Central Kitchen, you can go again to WCK.org slash donate and anything you can do would be greatly appreciated by the watch pod, but also by humanity in general. Let's get into my interview with Laura Linney, but first a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Quibi.

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and a small suburban town grapples with an explosive murder in when the streetlights go on. Quibi has it all from the comfort of your phone. Download the Quibi app now to enjoy a 90-day free trial. Okay, guys, the hits keep on coming. I'm so excited to present my interview with Ozarks, Laura Linney. Laura Linney is one of the great actors alive. She has been around for the last, I mean, pretty much the last 30 years. since the early 90s when she kind of started showing up in movies like Primal Fear. She is an accomplished stage actress. She's an accomplished film actress. She's won Emmys. She was in The Big Sea. She was in Tales from the City. And right now, she is giving one of the performances of the year in Ozark. Ozark is a show that obviously I have been very, very

passionate about since it came out. But it's not an understatement to say that the show took the leap this year. The season three of the show is probably its best season. And it's definitely the most searing portrait of the windy bird character that Laura Linney portrays. I was so appreciative of Laura for taking some time out from her day to talk to us and talk to the watch listeners a little bit about at the show this year. There are some spoilers in there. So if you haven't finished season three, I would recommend doing so before you heard the Laura Linney interview. But there's a lot of really cool stuff in there in any case. Thanks so much for listening to the pod. Here's my interview with Laura Lenny from Ozark. Laura, thank you so much for joining me today on the watch. I

finished Ozark season three a couple of days ago and I'm still kind of reeling from it I thought it was just an incredible piece of work so congratulations on that first of all well thank you a lot of a lot of people worked very hard I watched um I mean doing research for our chat I saw you from a little while ago and you it was an appearance you made um watch what happens live the bravo show yeah and uh you get asked a question about the season the third season and you are like visibly beaming about the scripts. It's like right when you guys must have just started doing production and you must have just started getting the scripts, what was it about those initial readings of the scripts or maybe those first days of production that gave you so much confidence about it? Because you said like,

you know, usually I'm not so bullish before we're done something. I like to kind of keep it a little bit more reserved, but you seem very confident and very excited about this third season from a while ago. I think when you have the privilege to build on something that's been, that has such a good foundation, you know, the first two seasons. You know, the first two seasons, seasons were so well done in and of themselves. And then it just felt like the third season with everybody knowing each other as well as they do. And a cast and a crew that is comfortable and skilled and really enjoy being together that all of us, and especially our writers, were really able to sort of jump into a whole other sort of experience together.

And it was just fulfilling. It was very hard work. We had a tremendous amount of fun doing it. And I just had a sense that it could be very good. Yeah, I mean, it's cool because Ozark almost reminds me of shows from maybe the earlier in the 2000s where they did find its footing in the third season. Not even find its footing, but like you would have a third or fourth season that just seemed to go up to another level. Often now, I feel like everything is so compressed in that first season. Yes.

And, you know, it's not instant pudding. You know, it takes time. for people to get to know each other and to dig in a little deeper and trust each other. And so it's the, you know, it's the joy of what time does to a group of people who work well together. You know, time only makes it better. So the more you get to do it, the more you're around each other, the more you work with each other and for each other, then hopefully good things happen. Wendy has such an incredible arc this season.

In a lot of ways, I think it's a season that's about Wendy. I was wondering, because you're obviously such an experienced actor who's worked in all these different mediums and stage and film and TV before, how much awareness do you have as you're shooting about the overall arc of Wendy on a season, especially for specifically this season, because I was curious about whether or not you're working backwards from an emotional endpoint or whether or not you're finding things, oh, okay, episode four, I do this, episode five. I know you guys did some block shooting, but I was curious about how much awareness you have about the end. point? Well, we didn't, I was told the basic arc, you know, plot, plot wise, basically what would

happen. And then we would get the scripts as right before we would shoot each block. So I didn't have all of the scripts at the very beginning. So which is the challenge of doing serious televisions, you don't really know what's happening. If you have a group of people who trust you enough to tell you, that's a huge help. And Chris Mundy and his amazing team, our amazing, fantastic showrunner, Chris Mundy, and his writers, they were terrific about giving me an overall arc about what would happen. But then I sort of had to fill it in piece by piece. The last four episodes, we shot as a block. So that was great because I had those four, like to the end, those last four,

I knew everything that was going to happen and what I had to work with and what. And then, you know, you plan and you have all these ideas. And then hopefully it surprises you and goes in a different direction. Yeah. I'm a firm believer in doing as much. much work as you can possibly do, and then throwing it all out the window. And if you're not surprised every day, I think that's a shame. That whole last section of the show, the four episodes, and I think Alex Socarov directed those four episodes. Is that right? And they have a very different,

like, I was watching, I was rewatching parts of it. There's a scene where Marty pulls into an empty parking lot to talk to Frank Sr. And it kind of almost feels like the second half of Goodfellas, the way that like the cars pull up really quick and it the tone of the show kind of changes but for you specifically I was curious how much um these very specific locations like the Warner mark parking lot start to take on a character of their own and like a scene partner of their own for you after a while you're right and you know I'm not on the the location scout so I don't know what it is until I get there yeah and so there's a lot of work I can just I don't have to do because the location will do it for me so there that's the sort of fun

of doing this type of work, is letting all of these elements come together. And then it goes to a place that you have no idea what it's going to be. Sure. Basic, you sort of aim for something, but then it takes on a life of its own, and then you have to wait and see,

and then you hand it all over to the editors and the post-production people who are so good, and they do that work their magic, and then it can turn into something completely different. For you going into this season, how much do you think, how much of the backstory of Ben and Wendy's relationship kind of did you have,

because I believe the brother is mentioned earlier, but not necessarily. You don't get really into Ben's story. He's mentioned in season one. Yeah. Marty and Wendy are on the boat talking about Jonah. And they're concerned because about Jonah's behavior with the animals. And Wendy says, this could be a problem.

You know I have a brother with mental illness. Or she makes some reference to her brother and his mental illness. Yeah. And so it sort of, I think, stem from there. Okay. Tell me a little bit about your work. relationship with Tom as an actor because, you know, it was really funny. I was like, he just kind of leaps off the screen in one of those ways. Kind of honestly, not unlike,

I suppose it's an unfair comparison, but not unlike when you see like Edward Norton in Primal Fear, where you're just like, oh, who is this guy? You know what I mean? And I know he's done a David Fincher movie since doing Ozark, but can you tell me a little bit about getting to work with Well, I knew Alexa Fogel, our casting director, who I've known for a very, very long time, has had her eye on Tom for many years. And I think has been waiting for the right part for him. And this came along and she thought this would be a good combination. So I trust Alexa completely. So I knew that he was going to be terrific.

And, you know, it can be intimidating to walk on a show that's already established with people who have a history. and so I wanted to make sure that he was as comfortable as he could possibly be. And he's a doll. He's a complete love. And we just had a great time. It was easy and it was fun. And we worked very thoroughly together and, you know, talked things through and then just played and had a good time. And like, you know, he fit into the Ozark family effortlessly, you know, because everyone

in there does get along so well. And he just, you know, it was just a douzart. joy to have him there. And you guys have such complicated scenes. The thing that's so amazing about his character is, as he knows about himself, he's sort of the only one telling the truth. I mean,

he confronts the Wendy so powerfully at the end of the season by being, you're a liar, this is crazy. Like, I'm the sane one. And the way that his character is used as a foil against yours is so brilliant. Yeah, well, he has all sorts of information that no one else has ever had. on that show about her.

You know, and the show sort of starts out with people who don't know themselves very well. You know, they think they do, but they don't. And they don't know each other very well. And as the show goes on, they learn things about themselves that take them for surprise, and they learn things about each other that are shocking. And he comes on with a boatload of knowledge that he uses. And in many ways, he's a threat to her. He's a reminder to her, you know, of how duplicitous she.

can be and how duplicitous she's always been, you know, that her life has always had a sense of dishonesty and criminality to it. I think one of my favorite, low-key, one of my favorite moments of the season is, you know, when you guys are talking in the van outside of the, outside of the Warner Mart, and he kind of keeps asking you, like, how did we get here? And then you kind of, you know, say, well, you can't shot, you can't threaten kids. And he's like, no, how did we get here? and that line you have about when you're fighting for your life, everything else you ever done feels dull in comparison, I think it could be kind of used as like an overarching theme for the entire show.

I mean, there's a lot of stuff with Ozark where you're kind of like, there's a suspension of disbelief, but that seems like a very key line for Wendy as a character. Yeah, yeah. I think there's, you know, there's a sense of addiction about it, certainly. And, you know, and forgive me if you've heard this before, and I've said it a bunch, but she's very instinctive, and she's very primal and she's reactive. You know, she reacts and deals at the same time.

She doesn't think things through, but she's shrewd. So nine times out of ten, she gets through okay. But she's reactive. She's not mature, but she's a really good chameleon, and she can disguise herself as someone who's really poised and together. But inside, she's just not. Yeah. I mean, it was, when she says, you know, he's like, you must be so tired. And she says, you'd think, it really does speak to the sort of specificity of the character. Because any other, you'd think that any other person would just, I mean, even Ruth says it about herself. She's like, I'm so tired. And your, your character is just like kind of, this is like a sort of power source for her, like an energy source. You know the red shoes? Do you know a movie called Red Shoes? It's a little like the Red Shoes. Yeah.

Yeah. The cool thing that happens this season with a bunch of the ways in which Wendy and Marty specifically interact with people is that you kind of have a lot of Dr. Melphys going on. You know, you have actually Sue. You have many scenes with Helen where you're talking about the nature of how you two are sort of moving through this world. And then you have these very cool phone calls with Navarro about what you want. who you're supposed to be. In a lot of ways, like this season seems to be one,

even though a lot happens, a much more reflective season of the show, almost than season two, which is very much like, can they get the licenses, can they get the casino going? Well, I think that's the joy of a third season. There's room for that.

Stuff has been established. So now there's room to sort of play around in all of that, to get a little more textured about character and psychology. And all of those characters that you're interacting with Sue, Helen, and Navarro,

they each have, there's a slightly comic element to Sue for some time until she tragically goes one McLaren too far. And then with Helen, it's this very kind of, you know, it's understated,

but it's very, very thoughtful and articulate. And then with Navarro, you're kind of, it's very ominous and almost like traditional, like, crime film. How did you sort of calibrate

who Wendy was to each of these people. Well, they each have different, they each offer different things that she wants and doesn't have. You know, in her sense of competition, you know, again, is like an instinctive primal thing

that she can't resist. Yeah. You know, and she has an innate ability to put herself on someone's level if she feels she belongs there or not. Yeah. You know, she'll talk back to Navarro. She'll put herself out there

even though, you know, without thinking. It's not like she has decided to do that. She just does it by instinct and then realizes she does it and then thinks, Jesus, holy Christ, what have I done? So she gets herself, she gets ahead of herself sometimes and that's when she gets in trouble. Do you, when these seasons are done, do you watch a lot of stuff while it's in post or do you wait for it?

Do you watch it at all? I don't. I will watch it. I haven't watched it yet. Okay. You know, just given where we are in the world with everybody being, you know, at home, home and shelter, you know, I'm homeschooling a six-year-old. And to be honest, at the end of the day, I'm so tired.

I just can't. But I'm getting to the point where I've sort of gotten the schedule down. And I have a lot of friends who are sick and family who are sick. Sure. There's a lot of time during the day trying to make sure that everyone is okay and trying to help as much as you can when you're not. near the people you love who are not well. So to be honest, at the end of the day, I'm just, I'm exhausted, but I think I'm probably going to start it, you know, tonight or tomorrow.

I found it oddly therapeutic. I know that sounds strange. I'm so glad. I know. It can be, it's a very transporting show because all of the behavior feels relatable, even if the premise feels completely outlandish. You know what I mean? Yes.

Yeah, it's fable-like. Yes. And there's, you know, there's a sense it's just about survival. And how do people survive in extreme situations? What do they learn in the process? How do they change? And that's one of the brilliant things about what Chris and his writers have done is that every single character has an incredible opportunity for transformation.

They all change and grow all the time. So with each episode, like a character is very different. the end of an episode than they were at the beginning. Oh, absolutely. You know, so there is this sense of growth and traveling with each of these people and to see where they go. So, and for an actor, that's, that's exciting. Yeah. And I would imagine even, you know, you've, you've done a lot of TV. You've obviously, you're a veteran. You've seen a lot of this stuff. Even something as minor, as small as like how Charlotte has changed over the last three seasons. Absolutely. And you could, on another show, you could have just as easily always made Charlotte the fly in the ointment.

And she could have just never changed at all and never decided what she wants. And credit to Chris, they really do change people. No, it's a wonderful group that he's put together. And he leads them with incredible finesse and great modesty and a real respect and love for each of these characters. And tries to keep the plot, you know, moving and exciting. and entertaining, but also grounded so that we can all dig deep as well as moving quickly forward. I wanted to ask you quickly about my two favorite scenes from this season,

I think, are, I believe it's episode six when you and Marty really let it go in front of Sue. And also the confrontation with Ruth in the offices. And both of those scenes are kind of perfect because it's what's great about the show, which is that it can be so dramatic and so harrowing, but also have this sense of humor to it in a weird way. Did you ever break during any of those scenes?

Is it like a funny set when you're on, when you're shooting that stuff? It certainly can be. It's a very, our crew is a huge element to our whole show, you know, and what they, not only just what they physically and mentally do and, you know, actively do, but also their support and their involvement in and how everyone is concentrated is really huge. Like, I love our crew. So, so they're,

they're fun. And, you know, laugh a lot. And they're, and the more we know each other, you know, the jokes just compound upon themselves season by season. I was just wondering if you could have gotten through Bichwool for the first time without cracking up. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, that was a good one. That was a good. The zingers are all good. And Darlene's always good for a laugh. Yes. You know, that character shows up and, you know, come on. It's just so delicious, you can hardly stand it. And Julia, you know, Julia's use of language in this thing is just, you know, heaven. Yeah, there's those moments, those moments especially feel like you're kind of like at a great play. And you're just kind of like, you're locked in,

the lights are off and you're just kind of locked in with these people on stage. I really appreciate you taking the time out to talk to us. Glad you're staying safe. And really thank you so much for what you've done on Ozark. No, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on.