The Watch - ‘Little Drummer Girl’ Creates a World You Want to Dive Into | The Watch (Ep. 309)

Episode Date: November 27, 2018

AMC created a three-night event by airing all six episodes of ‘Little Drummer Girl’ over the course of three nights, but was it worth it (1:16)? Plus a review of the first three episodes (19:59). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Read Chris Ryan’s review of ‘Little Drummer Girl’ here. Read Alison Herman’s review of ‘Little Drummer Girl’ here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the Microsoft Surface. Let's talk about something super exciting, like the newest member of the Microsoft Surface family, the Surface Pro 6. Now faster and more powerful than ever before so that you can get even more done, whether it's from your office at the airport or on your couch. Take the keyboard off and draw on it easily or snap it back on and type on it like a laptop with up to 13 and a half hours of battery life and a new 8th-gen Intel Core processor. You can work how you want to for as long as you want to, wherever we're.

work takes you. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by StarTalk All-Stars in a world filled with fake news, flat-earthers, and conspiracy theories. What's a thinking person like you supposed to do? Think like a skeptic, of course. On last week's episode of Star Talk All-Stars neuroscientist Heather Berlin, PhD, and her comic co-host Ari Shafir investigate the importance of skeptical thinking with their guests, Kara Santa Maria and Dr. Stephen Novella of the skeptics guide to the universe.

Remember, trust no one, question authority, and listen to StarTalk All-Stars wherever you listen to podcasts for the rigorous scientific thinking you crave. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in the studio live from the theater of the real. It's Andy Greenwald. It's too real.

It's too real. This theater's too real. I'm just trying to vibe. First show back from Thanksgiving. break, Thanksgiving, and historically relevant, resonant holiday for me and Andy. Really? Yeah, because I feel like we used to just really just do our thing over Thanksgiving break in Philly. It's true. I connected the holiday. We're not alone in this, right? Yeah. But like the Friday night,

like get down, like all your homies are back in town and you go do some, do some young people's stuff. You're really suitably carved up. Like you have a reserve of stuffing. To be, I mean, sometimes people like it when we lift the curtain a little bit, right? of our relationship. I think we've done this bit before we have. I don't know if we have. I don't know if people understand that like in the old days. We actually did talk about like all the music we would listen to.

Oh, I made like a Fishtown playlist or whatever. It's more that like I used to cook Thanksgiving dinner at my home, my parents home. And every year you and another buddy of ours would roll in to pick me, scoop me up. Well, because our friend would eat at like 1 p.m. That's right. And then I would eat at like 6.30. I would eat it like You would eat it like

You were having a madridista Thanksgiving at like 10 p.m. you're serving hors d'oeuvres. It's because I was just, I'm a slow cooker. And so Matt, I would show up and we would sort of graze And graciate yourself with the family And then, you know, sort of black bag me Yeah, right?

Yeah. Put a hood over my head. It's different nowadays in that We do not spend Thanksgiving together at all. We stay far apart. You, Chris, you were in another country. What was that like? I went to London. Well, it's not a... I went to England. London's a city. Yeah. And I went to England. I went to London and Oxford. Had a lovely time. Lovely time. Here's the thing about England is that when the sun does quote unquote come up. And when is that? And 9.30? It seems like. And then basically stays the exact... It comes up and it looks like dusk. And it stays that way until 4.30 and then it goes away again.

I thought, oh, it's in summer that it stays like there real late, right? So it's like real early. Yeah. What is that, does that awaken something primal in you? Do you feel, like do you feel more at home? Like I'm in my homeland? Yeah, do you feel? Because here's the thing.

I was back in Philadelphia for a few days, which was wonderful. And what it was also, though, was fucking cold. Yeah. It was a high of 23, 24 degrees on Thanksgiving. And here's the thing. My body was so unhappy and uncomfortable. And my mind said, well, this is right. Yeah.

This is the way you're supposed to feel. There were a couple times where I was like, I'm soft now. You know what I mean? Totally. Because it is 42 degrees in raining there, you know, all the time. But I do feel like atmospherically, environmentally somehow. It's like where I'm suited to. Right.

Like a couple of like ailments that I feel like I have here are not there, like in the colder climes. Like sun-based? I don't know. Like, I'm just like my skin's dry. You know what I mean? My throat's always dry. Like, it wasn't like that at England. You felt at home.

Yeah. Exactly. Is it also because you could finally just unleash the bodyguard takes and everyone would be like, top. This has happened to me before when I've gone to England where I've like buttonhole to cousin and just be like, what did you think of series two of this show of, you know, like broad church? Because you assume everyone there is walking around wearing hats and peeky blinders just ready to talk Poldark. Yeah, they have T-shirts on that say, ask me about Carrie Mulligan's performance and collateral.

Yes. Yes. No. So TV is not as central to the experience of the people you hang out with there as it is here. I think there are people who love TV over there. But I mean, your crew there is like family. Yes. It's not a hyper media.

You know what the other thing in England though is they have to pay for every channel like crazy? Like you have to get like a sky license. What is, like, is that like, isn't off licenses where you buy beer, right? But like when you're getting like your BB, you get like, I don't think that you can just plug a TV in and get it. You know what I mean? You can't do that here either. What do you trying to get like Jerry Pentecost? on WCAU?

Like, what is your home setup right now? You know what I mean? Like, I just, we pay for cable and then we get it, you know what I mean? But, like, there it's like, you have to, like, pay for these... It's hard to explain. Capitalism in America.

But when I was like, I would ask about, like, oh, did you watch the show? They're like, well, we don't, we don't get that channel. We don't do that here. Yeah, and there's only like six channels, so I don't even know what they're big deal is.

I feel like they should get them. My favorite thing still is that when you're watching BBC at the end of like whatever show it's on, this woman comes on and she's just like, now on BBC 1 no matter what she's talking about it's in the same voice you know it's like now on BBC

when Theresa May tries to passionately make the case for a unified Europe while on BBC 2 the Great British break off and it's like it's always there's no like and then top gear

it's like all at that same tone can I see a really specific thing about British television that will be of interest a few it's a good question because we're talking about the little drummer girl oh right that's British okay good so it's kind of a natural setup.

To show still start at like 10.05 GMT. Yes. Yes, because they do a little, they do this little appetizer before that. So you get like a little grenada, so to speak. That's right. The world is ending and Brexit is not on schedule.

On the shipping report, lanes into Southampton are clear and cloudy. On the shipping schedule tonight. Coming up next, a man looking into the camera. This just handed to me. So no. We've left Europe. Just headed me again?

Not quite yet. So no. Yeah, so not a lot. There was not a lot of takers for my bodyguard conversation starters. Conversely, were people just like hype AF on the good doctor? No. There was, I didn't see, you know, I don't see a lot of American series making a huge impact there right at the moment. American series is.

Yeah. So I don't know if you, this is not going to completely land for you. But I was on the tube and we were going to eat Tate Modern. Yeah, you are. And a bunch of school kids got on. And they all, like, had like... They were in little vests. They were actually were.

They were, like, all dressed up little school kids. Little drummer boys and girls. And they sit down next to me and it's like, oh, these kids look adorable. You know, the English, they just really... They know how to raise their kids, you know? Yeah. And one turns the other one goes,

You know what, blood? If I sit down in that front row and teacher asks me about economics, I'm like, I'm well chuffed about that blood. That's so, first of all. A, so good. B, it's an amazing imitation of Yandemansh, who briefly was attached to direct the pilot of Breyer Patch. Orion Gov!

That's great. Yeah. So it was just like really loud talking about how they were going to have to take their sixth form physics tests, but they weren't like excited about it or something? I don't want to segue yet into talking about the television show we have to talk about. I am going to bring it up. And I'm going to bring it up slowly because, I mean, yes, there were a number of important movies released over the last weekend that I did not see. So we can't talk about...

We can't talk about widows. We can't talk about the favor. Can't talk about Creed 2. Can't talk about Ralph breaks the internet. Nope. Because I know you were pretty hype on that. I won't be talking about that ever. Me either.

Someone asked me if I was going to take my children to that. I was like, my children, if I do my job right, they will never know about that. Same children, by the way, who are the reason why I've not seen a movie this weekend. No, I just wanted to ask specifically about... That would be amazing if you, like, looked at your children and you were just like, I want to tell you something. You have robbed me of... cinema and I will rob you of your cinema. They're waking up at 4.55 a.m.

So there are a lot bigger things that they've robbed me of, like my clarity of mind and purpose at this moment. But so again, and I think people, especially people who are listening abroad, will enjoy Chris's role as foreign correspondent after his six days over the pond. But we're watching Little Drummer Girl. You and I love it. What are you mean you and your... We are, but I mean, you and I collectively, my wife and I are watching it as well.

We're big fans of it. And one of the things about it that I love so much is that it is lavish. It looks so beautiful and considered. And then AMC burned all six hours and three nights. We're going to talk about the first half of it in case people haven't fully cut out. We'll touch on it again on Thursday. You were doing this on Monday. It came out a week ago.

You can probably get to the rest of it. But I guess I'm wondering about its role in the firmament in two countries because AMC is a major channel over here. But I believe the story behind this is that it's a co-production. It was BBC, which made me feel like, well, that's probably where – a good portion of the money came from, because otherwise if AMC spent a ton on it, would they be burning it on three nights? Do you think that's an accurate representation

of this show's place in the British cultural firmament or, in general, BBC's commitment to production? Because they're certainly making a lot of shows, much like our channels and streamers here. Well, BBC drama, I mean, like, obviously with things like Sherlock, Bodyguard, Broadchurch, you know, these shows are within the context of the size of the country, blockbusters.

Right. I think that bodyguards finale, they said, was like shattering records of viewership in the way that it was like, maybe not like mash. But it sounds like... Well, it wasn't like mash in the numbers, but it was like mash in the sense that it's a kind of number collectively that people in this country dream about retrieving. Yes. Yeah. Right. And I think that, I mean, I met some people over there, cousins of mine and others that were just talking about how they just have Netflix. You know? So generationally, that's like what's happening here. They, I think the people who were saying something like that were a little bit more like, first of all, all of them just watch friends.

You know what I mean? Or have watched friends already like once or twice through. That's still the most popular show in the world. Right. And that they just put it on when they get home while they're making dinner. Yep. Which is exactly how we were, you know, 15 years ago when you would get back from work or you'd get back from school or whatever. You'd just throw on Seinfeld.

Or meet the vicar or whatever else is popular at that time. Wallabies, yeah. So yeah, I think that what AMC did, I think their version of it was we were trying to create an event, which is understandable. And I think that we'll seize that a little bit from FX next year when they do Shogun. And I'll be curious to see how these shows start getting released because I don't think that it's really working right now.

For the binge model, I don't think, is working for people being able to talk about the show. You know? Yes. And I also wonder if it's working financially because we don't know the numbers in terms of of AMC's commitment to Little Drummer Girl. I think they had some success, clearly enough to continue their relationship with the La Care Estate,

with last year's night manager. But I don't, it seems like they made a, they made a consideration here that running this out over six weeks of air time did not make sense for them. However, running it in three nights, making an event out of it,

and then adding it to their collection made sense. And to that point, AMC is doing something that we should probably, we should probably have someone both with a more international perspective, but also someone with a different view of the business on to sort of help us through some of this, because I only recently noticed that AMC is trying to split the difference between the streamers and between the prestige cable channels

and its own identity as basic cable by offering this elevated platform, right? So I can get the AMC app on my Apple TV, and I can watch shows on demand on it, but they're with commercials. If I pay $4.99 a month, I not only can watch the shows without commercials, but I could have watched all of Little Drummer Girl the first night had I so chosen. And I think that's a sign of them trying to have it both ways and get the value like a Netflix

of having something in their collection but also trying to get the burn, the exciting burn of people just lining up and watching it in three straight nights. I don't know where that goes. I don't know where that goes. Because I don't know how much stuff they have in their vault. They have Mad Men, Breaking Bad, and Walking Dead.

So obviously that's like a spinal cord for like people coming back to that stuff. Worth noting, I don't know what the perpetuity deals are here. But they actually don't have it. It's in Netflix, right? Well, I think, yeah, I mean, Breaking Bad is a Sony show. Mad Men is a Lionsgate show. I haven't looked at the AMC app to see if those shows are available

because I think they are, in fact, I think they're Netflix. So they have Walking Dead, basically, is what they have. And maybe remember when their show from the late 90s. It's a weird place to be. That's, for me personally, as somebody who's very aggressive about how much television he's watching, that's actually, that's five bucks too far. I don't have.

five bucks a month or however much it is for every single individual champ. Yeah, I just don't. If I do do that, I have to cut the cord eventually. And I can't cut the cord because of from right now for live sports. The other half of the question that I'm asking, again, this is the big industry perspective question, is one thing that's been fun to see over the last few years as television has grown has been how international television production has risen in concert with American television production.

And we're getting all these interesting shows. and we're not just getting remakes of them, we're getting the shows. Pretty close to day and date to when they're on other channels, whether it was the return. The French show was an example of a couple years ago that we really dug,

and I'm a huge fan of Deutschland 83 and Deutschland 86. But, you know, which is a difference from even a few years ago when, for example, Homeland was an Israeli original show that was just adapted and changed. We never saw the original, or at least not at the same time. One thing that's been happening,

just like it's been happening here, is Netflix is eating is drinking everybody's milkshake around the world. Because international day and date releases. Not just that. They're just making the shows themselves. Sure. So whatever production houses or channels, we're willing to invest, like whether it was the BBC or Rye or Telemundo or whatever around the world, we're going to invest and try to turn

themselves into... Canal Ploose, yeah. Right, and become an HBO or become a destination or become a major hub for local native language production. Netflix is like, well, we'll just make dark. In every country that Netflix exists, they have their version of dark where they're saying we're making the original shows in this country too, which is great for us to be able to watch them here,

but I don't know what the trickle-down effect is with a... Because here, HBO and AT&T, they're like, well, or Apple, we can trade punches with Netflix for a while. Those smaller channels are national channels, I don't know if they can do that. And so, I mean, look, the Roy family can help us sort through this because they probably have a stake in a lot of these. But it's interesting.

All right, so we're going to talk about the first three episodes of the little drummer girl. Before we do that, do you want to recommend any of those movies I haven't seen yet? I mean, Widdows is phenomenal. I really want to see Widdows. Widows is, Widows makes me feel like we've, like, fucked something up. Because it's like,

Steve McQueen is so good at making that movie. Yeah. And that movie winds up being so much more thoughtful than it has, not that it has any business being, but it just shows that if you make an approach to genre material, quote unquote, genre material. Yeah.

That's sincere and thoughtful. You can actually do as, much if not more than any drama because there's so many different stories to tell within the genre filmmaking and you have that built in like the floor of entertainment is so much more higher so it winds up you can watch it as a heist movie you can watch it as kind of like let's get the gang together movie but there's a whole other plot line about Chicago politics and there's a whole plot line about race it's just like it's it's just a fascinating movie and also like just absolutely gripping. That's exciting. I am, I want our listeners to know, I'm going to see some movies, man.

It's screener season. I hope. This is my favorite time of year because then you're just, you're going to be like, so I've finally saw Black Panther. And let me say, let me clear the lane for me a little bit. Let me clear my throat. Yeah, so let's talk a little little drummer girl, right? Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the first three episodes. Yeah. Okay, so let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and then we'll come back and talk about the first three episodes of Little Drummer Girl. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Night Flyers. From the mind of acclaimed author George R.R. Martin comes sci-fi's terrifying new series Night Flyers, a psychological thriller set in the year 293 that follows a team of scientists

aboard the most advanced ship ever built. Their mission not only takes them to the edge of space, but to the edge of insanity, as they realize true horror isn't waiting for them out there. It's already on their ship. Each episode of Night Flyers will be available across all sci-fi platforms for an epic two-week premiere event. Yes, you will be able to watch the whole season anytime, anywhere. Unlike anything you've seen before, Night Flyers combines horror and science fiction in a way that George R.R. Martin himself has described as Psycho in Space, starring Owen Macon, Jody Turner Smith, David Azala,

and Gretchen Mall. No one is safe in sci-fi's terrifying original series, Night Flyers, all episodes, all platforms starting December 2nd on sci-fi. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by ADT. ADT can design and install a smart home just for you backed by 24-7 protection. Explore the vast number of things you can do with your secure smart home like doorman service, which is an ADT automation that unlocks the door for packages, friends, or your kids, or turn-down service, an ADT automation that arms your system, locks your doors,

and turns down your lights and thermostat or even worry-free getaway service, which lets you arm your system and lock up and set lighting schedules for when you go on vacation. All controlled from the ADT app or the sound of your voice and backed by 24-7 protection. And don't worry about installing and configuring your system. ADT will DIY-D-F-Y do it for you. Just visit ADT.com slash smart to learn more about how ADT can design and install a secure smart home just for you. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the big homies at Sonos Meet Sonos Beam, the smart compact sound bar for your TV and the newest addition to the easy-to-use home sound system.

Beam is incredible. It is so easy to hook up. It's so easy to use. It's so great at bringing sports to life in your living room or just making the movie experience come into your home. I mean, isn't that what you want? We're getting so much content beamed into our homes anyway. Why not use the Sonos Beam to make it sound better?

Beam lets you play everything you love for music and radio to TV, podcasts, and more. You can use Airplay to enjoy sound from your iPhone or iPad on Beam. All it takes is one chord to connect the beam to the TV. The Sonos app walks you through setups step by step. And it syncs with your existing remote, or you can get a hands-free control by using Alexa, which is built in. That way you can start a playlist, skip tracks, and pause simply,

just by asking out loud. Go to sonos.com to learn more and order your Sonos beam to start your smart home sound system. That's Sonos, s-on-os.com. All right, we're back. Let's talk about the first three episodes of Little Drummer Girl. Three of six. Yeah.

Which, by the way, might be confusing for people who did keep up because this was aired as three, two-hour episodes. Yeah, we're talking about the first night and a half. But if you're watching it in any kind of streaming service way, if you're buying it off of iTunes or Amazon. It's chopped up. It's all there. Yeah, it's chopped up.

This is like, it's recency bias, but it's like really jumbled up my top 10. Yeah. I kind of can't deal with how much I love this show. I know. It's so good. And it's a show that wants you to love it because it's so deeply realized

and it's kind of just really romantic. You know what I mean? And it's the music is beautiful. It's like inviting you. you in to this warm bath of a world that is actually quite dangerous and quite scary. And I think that we will talk about it, but the second half of the series gets a lot more chilling. But sort of languidly rolling through Greece and Yugoslavia in the late 70s and these loading up on Slavivivit.

Bold colors as they like Florence Putea wear on this show. It just is a show that invites a connection, I think. Can we talk about, I agree, and I feel deeply connected to the show and very excited by it. When you talk about the year-end list being shaken up, I agree, because recency bias, I am full of joy that the show is out there and I still have a little bit more to watch. I think it is so vibrant, so exciting, so deeply realized and affecting, and thrilling to watch that it is crashing through the numbers on my top 10 list just because I feel so positive about it. I had so much fun watching it. And so, you know, I have so much anticipation about watching more. What I'd like you to do, Chris, because people who listen to this podcast know how we feel about crime fiction, they probably know how he feel about John La Cray. And they probably also know that though he has been a recognized master of the form and just one of the great living novelists and recognized as such for a number of decades, the adaptations of his work have picked up in recent years because his sons are now controlling the franchise.

And they've made it, they've made various deals. And so we get projects like the new Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy movie, which I loved, and the night manager, which I was okay with. with here we have them tackling and succeeding with what I believe, and I have not read this book, is considered one of his masterpieces, but also one of the naughtiest and most cerebral of his books. Yeah, paradoxically, it's one of his most complicated books, and it's also the, I think it was at the time when it was released easily. It's his biggest commercial success.

This is a 1983 book set in 1979. And as a sort of famous mass paperback edition from that era, that's like, I think you would see, it wasn't as popular, but like it was a very, very it was not uncommon to see that in jaws, you know, at different people's houses as like those mass paperback beach read books. Yeah, I remember the cover. Yeah, even though I never

read this book. And it was made into a film with Diane Keaton, very unsuccessfully by George Roy Hill. And I think that that was kind of you know, nobody remembers that movie. I wouldn't recommend anybody going back to it. So what are the pitfalls here? Well, okay. So when Nightmanjur came out, I was

pretty convinced, obviously they're just going to keep they have so many stories they can work from from here. They haven't even really rebooted the smiley stuff, which is what Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, honorable schoolboy, and Smiley's People is about. And not just the fact that there's a number of books which suggests in a TV series based on those alone,

so more than one series or more than one season, but you could do the continuing adventures. He shows up in a lot of books afterwards, too. He shows up in other books in minor and major ways. You could do a Smiley TV show in a traditional sense. They have not done that yet. Thomas Alfredson's version of the book was quite stylish and I thought there were

a bunch of people who were very good in it. Oldman. But then there is the other sect of, you know, there's another part of the church where everybody is like, the BBC version from the seven, from... This is our paled Zach Barron. Yeah. Well, the Alec Guinness BBC version is the one true text.

And it's the only good La Cere adaptation. Because it is as complicated as the writing itself. It's very faithful. It's very faithful. And I think because it was set closer to the time of the events, maybe it had like a certain period feel that doesn't feel as fussy as maybe the new version does. But anyway, after Night Manager, I was pretty content with the idea that they're going to make these into stylish thrillers. They're going to make everybody look good. Everybody's going to be tan. Everybody's going to be healthy.

Everybody is going to... Yeah. The idea of Tom Hiddleston as the main character in the Night Manager is not exactly like... I wouldn't say it's a disgrace or anything, but it's just not what you think of. be that beautiful and that sort of elegant as the, as the hero of a Le Carrey novel. It's also what you would think of and maybe what you would fear when you hear that a great author's younger, young sons are hustling the stuff in Hollywood. Yeah.

Like let's get our, let's find, let's ease people into our dad's work. Yeah, and maybe we can create a thinking man's bond out of this stuff. You know, you basically have a series of really well-plotted novels with some good dialogue and some good twists. but what makes LeCarrie special to me, aside from the fact that I love living in that world that I'm so fascinated by the world of espionage, is the interiority of the characters.

And he writes about memory and feeling in a way that is kind of unique to him, although I think it draws on a lot of, whether it's anybody from Henry James to anything else, where you'll be living inside of somebody's mind as they're processing these very genre events. You're also going back through time with them to them thinking about their father or them thinking about a loved one that they lost or them thinking

about a woman that they were almost going to marry but didn't. And somehow those threads of their life come together to have resonance in this sort of spy story somehow. It impacts their decision making. It maybe checks their reactions to things. It has something to do with all these different elements of the story. And it's very hard to represent that interiority on screen. And I think that when you watch the little drummer girl, when you watch Park Chan-Wook's adaptation, the first thing you feel is that this was a group of people who made this show who took LaCarrie as the diving board

and jumped into a pool. And that's a line that actually comes up a couple of times in the show. But they took it and made it their own in a way that still honors what made LaCarray special. But you can't show interiority unless you have voiceover. So what he does is he lets the camera show it. He lets the camera wander and dive and reveal what's happening on these actors' faces

so that you can fill in the interiority for them. I completely agree with all that, and I would take it a step further, which is to say all the things that maybe made Little Drummer Girl appear challenging for an adaptation are actually what they've embraced here and have made it good, which is to say that it is at a tart about performance. It is about the theater, as you said in the intro. It is about the theater of geopolitical discord, of about espionage, of about the disturbing commonality between the, I don't want to say narcissism, but the extroversion, let's say, of acting and of being an assassin or of playing a part. They're all playing a part.

And whether you seek out the part by auditioning or the part is granted to you by events on the world's stage, there are people who take the opportunity, and there are people who shrink from that spotlight. And this is a series about very different people and relatively, I don't even want to say broken people, because that's a cliche of contemporary television. I would just say unique people who all have answered that call. And they've ended up on different sides of the stage, perhaps. Yeah, I think that it's interesting because it's interesting that you say that whether or not they're broken and this fixes them or not, because I think one of the things that really... That seems reductive to me. But it also is something that it really captures probably about

that 1970s period leading up into and that late Cold War period is the way in which world events did suck everybody in. Right, you couldn't stay, you couldn't be on the sidelines. There's a scene in the first episode, I think, where Charlie is in a bar

with her theater troupe in England and she gets excited because they've been offered this Greek vacation by, like a patron. And that guy, Al, who's sort of, you know, her boyfriend, but is like kind of on the outside and is much more of a Marxist is sort of like,

you know, there are explosions going off and you're excited about your like piss up in Greece. And she's just like, you're only mad because you're not invited. And then she winds up inviting him. But that idea that essentially what you read in the news wasn't compartmentalized but was actually in front of you all the time and was governing what your everyday life was. I think it's something that really resonates today too. But in a different way because I feel like the theater that those people were living in was the entire stage for this, this. conflict, you know? Yes, and of course, what it brings to mind is the fact that, you know, and you think about World War II, they're like, well, the Pacific Theater. We use that word to talk about

war. And it's possible just as it is then, just as it was during 1979, when the story is being told, as it is now, if you move your avatar a few clicks or a few hundred miles or a thousand miles the east or west or north or south, you can be in a theater like that too. Sure. And how culpable are we for those events? Have we bought tickets? Are we responsible? Are we responsible? responsible for what happens on stage. I mean, these are the things that are happening. These are the ideas that swirl around the show and the show wisely embraces them. But all of this is very, you know, we're having a heady conversation about something that is just fucking ripping. And a lot of that has to do with the performances, which we should talk about. But first and foremost, we should talk

about Park Chanwuk, who is, you know, people who go to the movies will tell you is a legendary and brilliant figure. I am deeply in love with him now watching this. because it is astonishing. He's probably best known for old boy. Old boy. Did you do like sympathy for Lady Vengeance? Sympathy for Misdengeance. Yeah.

Which is one of like my one of my favorite movies. It's just a remarkable movie. There's so much control here. Sometimes when we talk about things being controlled by a director, it can feel like it's choking the life out of it. But instead, it just feels like

the most deliberate and vibrant canvas you can imagine. I am, I said this last week when we were previewing it. I'll say it again. I am newly in love with and obsessed with production design now that I understand how hard it is when we made Briar Patch. It didn't occur to me because you never have to think about how every detail.

Of course, every detail matters. And in any art, when people consider every detail. Sorry, it is actually sympathy for lady vengeance. There's better art. Sympathy for Lady Dynamite was a blog post I read last year after the show was canceled. But when I found myself in Albuquerque designing matchbooks for a hotel that we would never see, writing newspaper articles for newspapers that would flash in the background that we would never see, I began to appreciate just the kind of mind that can not just imagine a completely other world,

but then fucking make it happen. And this show looks like no other show. It is this, the color palette, the architecture, the locations, even the weather that they stumbled into or took advantage of in every scene is as much a character as Michael Shannon is. And it is gorgeous to look at. It's really an astonishing achievement. the only thing that I think has come close this year is Patrick Melrose. And that's purely in terms of like aesthetics.

The visuals, yeah. Visuals production design because I think that show tapered off. But I'm blown away by it. Yeah, I mean, he draws from everything from, I think there's elements of Hitchcock, obviously, in some of the psychological thriller aspects. I think that there's a, there are shades of David Lynch in this. Yeah, when you least expect it. And there's a mastery of surreality that when he allows that to come in

and what you think is otherwise a straightforward period spy story. Right, because there's a most important. moment in the, I believe, the second episode, once she's sort of quote-unquote gotten the part, and I want to talk a little bit about the second episode specifically, but there's a shot where it's kind of, and you can see this in the trailer, it kind of tracks into Alexander Scarsguard standing with his arms out like a crucifix kind of pose, and it goes in and as it dissolves, it sees the actual person that Alexander Scarsguard is going to pretend to be in their fiction. The real Saleem.

The real Salim in a padded cell somewhere in Munich. You know, the first episode, I think one of the things that I think was worth mentioning about this is just how disorienting it is and how confident they tell the story, but in the sense of, I've watched it the first few episodes once and then I watched them again with my wife. And she was like, I'm sure I'll get it, but what's going on with this? And I think that I've read the book, so it was a little bit familiar to me. But even the way in which before you know it, they've kind of enacted this plan, Michael Shannon is kind of sold. his massad betters on this plan, you're just kind of like, wait, what's he going to try and do? And then I think, you know,

and you've got Alexander Scarsguard showing up, and you're not really sure like, well, how did he find them? And what's he just going to hang around them? And then kind of entice her, but also offend her, and then kidnapper. All that stuff, you just kind of have to go with it. And because you're making those plans in your head, you're like, I guess I just have to go along with this.

You're kind of thinking like Charlie is. Yes. And what you are giving yourself, I mean, this is pretty fucking grandiose, but go with me here. One of the joys of the series, if you go along with it, is just losing yourself in a story that you buy a ticket, you take the ride. So you give yourself over to it. And that really is what's happening to our character too, right?

I mean, she, Charlie, brilliantly played by Florence Pugh, is being radicalized, essentially. Now, by the quote-unquote good guys, I guess, fulfilling, Is she having itches scratch that had pre-existed this situation? Probably. But she is being changed in her vision of herself and her vision of reality and what she's willing to accept is being altered in really steep psychological kind of fucked up ways. That's happening to us too. And that's kind of what it is to engage with someone else's vision in TV or movies or whatever. You kind of have to sacrifice a little bit.

Maybe not when you're watching friends while you're cooking dinner. But to give yourself over to something challenging or something with intention and purpose. is not unlike that relationship. You're just saying, well, okay, I guess that they have, we're going to throw out your own compass and accept theirs. And it can be disorienting, yes. And, you know, we've talked to people who are enjoying the series and couldn't tell you what's going on after one episode or after two episodes.

I love that it kind of doesn't matter. I will say that because my wife got mad at me and insisted I rewatched the first two, I have a much firmer grasp on everything and could appreciate more. I actually think in a strange way, I hate rewatching TV. Yes. This actually does support rewatching. Yeah. There's little lines of dialogue that come across, and there's also, you can kind of see the pieces coming together in little ways that you may have not noticed because you were distracted by a phone that looks so cool or by an outfit that looks so amazing.

You're like, oh, so she says this, and then it's like she's part of this. I got it. And so I want to take a moment here to say that do we owe Michael Shannon an apology? because he absolutely is one of our best actors. But we, again, we're all culpable here, right? Just like for geopolitical conflict, we're culpable in this too. We have definitely only supported him in these sort of bug-eyed extreme weirdo roles that gained him some measure of fame,

the straight line from the movie Bug that he was in to his role in Boardwalk Empire to his role in the Trashy Superman movie, all that. Like, that's the version of Michael Shannon that we, as American consumers, seem comfortable with. Thank God they gave him a different thing to do. And no wonder he took this part. And it's a much different. I think his rendering of this character is different than what most people's imagination of Kurtz would be. Who read the book?

Yeah. Put this mustache on and put those glasses, put that hair. Put that accent. I've heard some mixed reviews about his Israeli accent. Oh, look, I said this last week. Like, you're, again, you're either, you've bought the ticket or you have it. Yeah. It doesn't bother me anymore because he is a unique creation.

If you start pulling that thread, the whole thing unravels. Why are all the Israelis only talking English to each other? Why are the Germans and the Israelis talking English to each other? I mean, why does any of that matter? Right. His performance is, it's a very unique performance. It's of a very interesting character. And what I love most about it is the gusto,

not just of the way he's embracing this part, but of the way this guy Kurtz interacts with the world. Yes. A world that has hurt him very deeply. you know, but allows Michael Shannon to play that exuberance, to play that ferocity of action as a honestly earned consequence of what happened to him at the beginning of his life. It's not a stereotypical, a broken person trying to be fixed at all,

which thank God, and I appreciate that, and he's just a joy to watch. So much of this shows about perception. I mean, it's not only about perception in terms of how much are visceral reactions to what we're watching are being manipulated by the director. But it's also about perception of conflict. You know, two sides can think they're absolutely right and the other side can think they're absolutely wrong.

And it's also about our perception of reality because it's about creating a fiction to impact nonfiction. You know what I mean? It's about creating a piece of theater in the real world that will actually change the world off the stage. Yeah, right. Which is kind of what any artist's dream.

they're capable of, even if they won't admit it. And that's what Michael Schen. And Kurtz insists, like, when he talks to his boss, he's like, you know, I'm an artist. Kurtz is an interesting character name as well. Obviously some intention behind that. Yeah, of course. And I just love that, I love how the arc of his first two episodes kind of culminates in that, in that, Damon on the second episode where they break her, essentially.

And that's an interesting scene to watch because it's such a complicated. That's the most complicated part of this show so far. There's this whole element where Florence Pugh, I mean, we could talk about probably for another hour. How does England keep making brilliant actors like this? Yeah. You should find that out next time you go. Where Florence Pugh, even though she is essentially being interrogated by secret Israeli agents, is.

She is. Is still sticking to her own legend, to her own fiction. Of her father being a con man who died in prison. which that actual legend is the story of John LeCarray's real life and is the story that he then told in a perfect spy.

You're right. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The story of Charlie in Well, Drummer Girl was inspired by John LaCherry's sister Charlotte who was an actress who flirted with

sort of far left actor circles including with like the Redgrave sisters in the 70s who were really big workers rights party people. Right, and of course there's that line at the end of the third hour

where Scarsgard and Florence Pugh, Gadi, and Charlie are talking. And by the way, how great is the show that she has three names for him? Yeah, Joseph, Peter, and Gadi, yeah. Jose, yeah. That he says, you know, some people have the taste for it and some don't. And this is a through line in La Cary's life because he was involved in the spy trade and then was a writer. And clearly there is some commonality that he's always been trying to,

exercise in himself, right? Of what kind of being drawn to fiction or grand fiction, but having some impact or footprint on the world greater than, you know, sketching in your own, like, where does the art go, basically? And what effect does it have on people? And what is the best venue to deliver that art in? So I think Florence Pugh actually has, like, one of the hardest jobs, because she's got to carry the show, and Alison Herman wrote a piece that very smartly pointed out

that the perspective of the book is largely, that of the agents, and the perspective of the show is largely Charlie's. It's for the most part, Charlie. Interesting, yeah. She's got to convince us that this person would go along with us, and that this wouldn't just be, fuck, no, I am not going to join a

weird secret agent team of Israelis who are trying to enact a like fishing expedition on a Palestinian cell. Let alone, like, forget the Semtex. I don't know how much you'd pay me to drive across Yugoslavia by myself. I know. You know what I mean? Like, I'm probably out on that.

Yeah, and her kind of, the way that she gets it is that I think that you can just tell even from the early scenes of her in the theater, of her playing Joan of Arc, of her, you know, her manner suggests somebody who is looking for a greater purpose in her life and looking like she's somebody who is trying to make her life matter. And LeCarray stories are full of people like that. And they can be on the margins and they can be working as bureaucrats or whatever. but they are people who are basically giving themselves over to this world because they want to feel like their lives matter in some significant way. The last thing I want to say about this, and we'll talk more about the show, obviously, when we talk about the last few episodes, maybe on Thursday show, is, and this is something that I think will impact our conversation, our end-of-the-year show that we do every year with a certain special guest. This is what I love about TV. this is TV at its most surprising and exciting, playing in a format, in this case,

with source material that I am already drawn to, bringing in world-class talent, but telling a story with the now, modern TV, with the space, time, budget to allow it to be its best version, right? I also feel like this is this era we're in where this is kind of bespoke television. You know what I mean?

Like this is, I hope, when we're doing a whole podcast about it, I hope some of our listeners will take this journey with us because they like this sort of thing or they're interested to the degree to which we're talking about it. Yeah. This is not, though, a needle-moving show. This is not a show that's going to come back next year. Like, you know, the second little drummer girl, this is it. Yeah.

This is an event that we love. And this is what TV is for us now. And I, again, I guess I wonder about the changing nature of the medium and our conversations about it, that we're just celebrating this one thing that we love so much. It's not, I don't think everyone is going to watch this. I don't think everyone who watches it is going to love it. And I don't think this is going to start a new trend in television storytelling. Yeah, no, I don't think so either.

But I do think that we're seeing this shift to shows being as good as their directors, you know, in some ways. Yeah. And that directors can bring something to the small screen that, and they have the budget to play with, that can rival anything on the big screen. And I know that those distinctions don't mean anything anymore. But if you're talking about Park Chanwuk, who is one of the great directors in World Cinema the last 20 years, he made miniseries.

That's where we're at now. You know what I mean? And I think that this is, we're coming out of a three or four year period of time where Fincher, Soderberg, Carrie Fukenaga, I mean, tons and tons of other people. And this is another addition to the great television directing canon. I mean, every single shot here means something,

earns its reason for being on the screen with something about it. And it never steps on the actors, where you'll have scenes like I've often thought that there's a little bit of a restriction to the way that people can move in Fincher stuff, right? Like maybe not in Shulisw Network, but in Mindhunter specifically,

like because he's so exacting and I think that he's like, I want to move the ashtray, two inches to the left. And you can kind of feel that sometimes in some of the framing he does. Sometimes I like that. You know, I like that more often than I don't.

There's the same kind of precision in the framing and the composition in the little drummer girl, but the acting feels completely untethered to that. They don't know that they're being arranged as a piece of set design, which they essentially are.

They're being these characters, and it's just awesome. It's so cool to watch. We're definitely in a different era right now in terms of things being allowed, things are given the space to be what they need to be, and what they best could be.

There's a grand tradition of things being too short in movies, like trying to squeeze an entire book or book series into a single film. There's a tradition of taking something like the passage, a book that we loved and turning it into this Fox show that's coming on January, which is like that, that vessel doesn't fit the stuff you're trying to pour into it.

We have this new category now where we have things like Little Drummer Girl, where we have Escape at Danamora, where whether you like them or dislike them or you're interested or not interested, this fits. This was a, this was the right way to tell this story whether you like it or not. And the place where those shaped stories, misshapen stories are happening, it's television right now. Yeah. And that in of itself is,

interesting. And I still don't know if we have the exact language to describe it or the right bin to categorize it because talking about this show's success in relation to one day at a time or glow or killing Eve. It doesn't really make sense. And yet we're doing it. Whereas when Quarron's Roma shows up in a week or two on Netflix, we're not going to pretend that that's a TV show, even though we're getting it in the same, through the same device. It's complicated, but You're seeing things that start as TV shows become movies. You're seeing things that were probably supposed to be movies become TV shows. I mean, like Buster Scruggs is supposed to be a series.

Well, first it was a script, and the way they got financing was to pretend it was a TV show. And now it's back to they were like, look, fuck it, this is a movie. It makes it harder for people like us to parse, but the winners are the consumers. Yeah. All right, we're going to be back on Thursday to talk about the second half of the season of The Little Drama Girl, and we'll have some other stuff for you. I promise we'll have other stuff, guys. Great jobs. Happy Thanksgiving, Buranski's.

Well, I guess you already had it. So I hope you had a happy one. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Night Flyers. This December, sci-fi's terrifying new series, Night Flyers, is a psychological thriller

that takes a team of scientists to the edge of space and insanity as they realize true horror is already on their ship. Each episode of Night Flyers will be available on every platform for an epic two-week premiere event. Oh, and it's based on the novella by acclaimed author George R.R.R. Martin, Night Flyers. all episodes, all platforms, starting December 2nd on sci-fi. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Sonos. Meet Sonos Beam, the smart compact soundbar for your TV.

Beam lets you play everything you love from music and radio to TV, movies, podcasts, and more all with rich sound that fills the room. It's super simple setup. But if you don't want to bother with that, Sonos will send someone to you to set it up for you. That's right. If you live in a major metropolitan area, up and running, will have a Sonos expert deliver and set up your system absolutely free.

I took advantage of this. I'm no dummy, but I still feel like up and running hooked it up. You know, it made it so that it was absolutely maximally configured for my living room space. So I really enjoy that. You should check it out if you can. Just order from sonos.com and select up and running at checkout if you qualify.