The Watch - ‘Looking for Alaska,’ Adaptation in the Post-Movies Age, and the Apple Content Slate | The Watch

Episode Date: October 17, 2019

We preview Hulu’s upcoming original series ‘Looking for Alaska’—the first TV adaptation of a John Green novel (0:54). Then we talk about how ‘Looking for Alaska’ and HBO’s ‘Watchmen’ are two prime examples of content that would’ve been made into a movie in a previous decade but are now being serialized as TV (15:30), before running down the list of Apple streaming shows set to release soon (22:50). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Google Assistant. The Google Assistant is ready to help you get more done with just your voice in the car, at home, and everywhere you take your phone. With Halloween right around the corner, I can just say, hey, Google, add Halloween candy to my shopping list. Okay, I added Halloween candy. A little help, hands free. Just say, hey, Google, to get started. I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. It's my Dr. Doolittle, Andy Greenwald. Look at yourself, man. Look at yourself. What's wrong with you, man? Listen, I just feel like people need to know the truth. It's Wednesday, by the way. So you'll hear this Thursday, but we're recording it Wednesday if anything happens.

Something's going to happen right now. Okay. I was away from the studio for a while. For like a week. Well, and five months. But, you know, now that I'm back, I've settled back into the rhythms. and I've watched you, man, and you've changed. How so?

All of a sudden, since you started parking on the first floor of the parking structure. You think I have one percenter vibe? I just feel like you're what Bernie was talking about. Because ever since I got back, you're parking in a more convenient spot. You're wearing headphones now? I wear headphones because I care about the fidelity of this podcast. Bobby's producing today, so it's like, not to say that Kaya doesn't make absolutely crystal clear audio quality sound. Yeah.

But I want to meet Bobby at the summit of technical proficiency. you're like, Bobby, what's up with my microphone? No, I just didn't, because the things have been a little funky recently. I'm just saying, this is an interesting collision in this podcast now, because it used to be just two guys, just looking out at the world from the same vantage point, and now... Is that what you thought? I did. I did

briefly. Now, I'm just like, let's just let it ride. Let's go. I have so many things I want to talk to you about today. I don't know if I have like a... I don't know if I can put a bow on it yet, though. I don't know what the theme of the episode is yet. There's a bunch of TV stuff to talk about. Yeah, there's tons. We're two weeks out from Apple. We're about a month out from Disney.

Yeah. We're days out from Watchmen. Can I just tell you a quick only in Hollywood story about your 1% lifestyle? Sure. And we're going to talk about all those things, all those trailers, all this shows coming up. We're going to, is this kind of a state of the state of play kind of conversation? Is this about your private Israeli Audi dealer? What is this point?

What's your 99% story you're going to tell me? They're called Black Cube. They get me all the information I need. They're very responsible gentlemen. Last night, I was out at dinner. Tuesday night, strange move. Is that a date date? It was sort of my sister-in-law and her family were visiting.

Oh, cool, yeah. So it was a four grown-ups date night. And into the restaurant walks, looking for Alaska executive producer, Josh Schwartz. No shit. Yeah, he's supposed to be on the show soon. And he walked right up to me. He's like, it's great to see you. I said, great to see you.

And he said, what's up with Chris? What does that mean? He said, I hear Chris is leaving town. we were supposed to be talking Alaska, and now we're all on pins and needles waiting for Chris. I was waiting for, I'm waiting for Josh's guy to get back to me. Because he has a guy. No, it's fine.

I just like you to know that now that I'm back, boots on the ground here in H-town. Yeah, everybody's coming to you and talked about me. Yes. Yes, you're the gatekeeper of culture. Am I allowed to hire you as my agent? Because I'm not in the WGA, so that would work, right? You could hire me.

I want you to know that I am extremely irresponsible in a fiduciary sense. Okay. Very irresponsible. But anyway, it was nice to see him and nice to know that in terms of the looking for Alaska Rollout Marketing Plan, we are right in there. So I cannot wait to talk to Josh about that show. You want to know why? Tell me why.

It's really good. I know it's good. You know how I know it's good? I haven't watched it yet, but I will. I'm very excited to. I know. I think it's coming out this next, this coming week or like on Friday or something like that, whenever Hulu's new releases go.

Because you, Chris, popped your head up like a grand. Groundhog on Groundhog Day on the watch Facebook group to be like, quiet the debate. This show's good. I have such mixed feelings about participating in Facebook. I know. Well, it is a fraught time for that. I love the watch Facebook group. But every time I log on, I'm like, God damn.

But that's the only reason to keep it, I think, is the vibrant, really warm and amazing community. And then I also like looking at pictures of myself from high school when I had hair. And I was just chilling. Do you look at them the way Wolverine in that meme of 90s Wolverine looks at the framed photograph? Is that you lying in bed in your full yellow light? Logging into Facebook, yeah. What a legendary open to this podcast. You want to know why I love looking for Alaska?

It's basically Dead Poets Society meets 05 emo. Boy, put that on the poster. Why not? It's an adaptation of a John Green novel and set in a boarding school in Alabama, a sort of funky progressive boarding school that has its own set of rules but it's a group of like four kind of outsider kids who have kind of come together

and become friends there, smoke cigarettes, talk about books, and play epic pranks on the rich kids. Great. And you know. And you, Chris, Ryan, the 2019 relate to the scrappy underdog kids. Well, I just thought it was like a,

it was kind of the best of, it's funny. I would connect this. I love it. Looking for Alaska. and The Watchman. Which is coming out on Sunday. Are both the kind of television shows that would be almost impossible

to imagine being made 10 years ago in some ways, or at least specifically the way they are. Looking for Alaska deals a lot of pretty heavy themes. Anybody who's read the book knows, and Watchman, obviously, is really, really complex, deep story. The way those,

and both executions are pretty high concept. You know, looking for Alaska, does a lot of, you know, sort of piecemealing out, like, the story in a way where we know something is going to happen, but we're getting, like, each little glimpse into the story. And then Watchman, I don't even want to say a single thing about it. I just want to say that I love it. So exciting. I was so blown away by the first episode.

And, but both are made by expert television makers. And it's a quality that you kind of actually realize that is not in, it's not an infinite supply. Both Josh and Damon know, and Stephanie Savage, and know exactly how to make a well-paced hour of television. And I think it's essential because a lot of these, you know, it's really cool to see new kinds of stories being told, but there is something to be said for like the level of expertise that comes with like making it for a long time.

I feel triggered by that. Hey, we'll see. I'm just kidding. The results have yet to be counted on you, my guy. I'm kidding. First of all, the tables have turned. The screener taps have been shut off for your boy, former television critic Andy Greenwald.

So I'm behind you on all this. but I'm anticipating both shows and actually watch this King Segway this is a perfect lead into our conversation of the upcoming Apple TV Plus shows because the examples you're making of two shows I am extremely excited about

two shows I have not seen but you have looking for Alaska and Watchmen I think you're exactly right what you're saying about them but I also think it's worth noting the long adaptation gestation cycle of both projects and how both were I don't want to say misadapted because looking for Alaska was never actually adapted for the big screen.

But both have found, I believe to be, the jury of course is still out over the course of a season of both, but the right lane to exist in. And what I mean is, when did the Watchman movie come out? The Zack Snyder movie. I think 10 years ago, more than 10 years ago? Probably 1 10 years ago. The point being, for years, Watchman was a white whale for many people in Hollywood. It was considered unadaptable, Terry Gilliam,

worked at it for years. Zach Snyder did it, but did it in, in my opinion, the worst, most paint by numbers, slavishly devoted way, which proved in a way that it was unfilmable. It is such a vibrant, almost four-dimensional story told in the comic book medium, and then on the screen it was incredibly flat. And so what Damon is doing is he's calling it a remix of it. It is taking advantage of the storytelling possibilities he has now in 2019 of television to do his version of it, which is not slaymond.

savagely devoted and looking for Alaska, and we'll talk about this when we have Josh on. Josh has been chasing this since the book was published. Am I going to go away and Josh is going to do you and Josh are going to do a pod together? Am I going to disappear you? No, but I will say this. And he and I can talk about it when we're all together. We can all talk about it. But Josh, who I've known for many, many years, I believe sent me, no, I know he sent

me the screenplay that he wrote for the movie version of looking for Alaska in 0506. No way. Yeah. I mean, that was... When did the book come out? 0-4-05. Okay. And he immediately fell in love with it and connected with John Green, the writer, you know, when he was just at the cusp of what became enormous fame and success. And this is something, this is truly a passion project for him. And he couldn't get it done as a movie. And as it seems like it's turned out to be the case, it is better served both with a larger canvas, you know, with the possibilities of storytelling and TV. But also, I believe, and I'm excited to talk to him about this, the distance for you. The distance for me.

from it, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a period piece at this point. It's a period piece, but it's also a period piece in the sense that it's a 2019 period piece in that it is much more curious about the supporting characters in their inner lives than the book was, which I believe even John Green has said is kind of a myopic aspect of the book that he wrote at that point in his life and career. Sure. And I mean, there is even a sort of, it's kind of a love letter to that moment before I, right, right before the internet kind of takes over everybody's life. Like, right? around 0506 before I think, you know, like a lot of people got on Twitter in like 08. I think iPhones became really prevalent.

When did the iPhone kind of replace iPods? So 08, right. And I was still on the T-Mobile Sidekick for a minute. I remember that. Those were sick. Good keyboard. Those were such a big deal. Not a great graphics card.

In the Meet Me in the bathroom era, the sidekick was the height, the height of communication. You pull out your sidekick and write Meet Me in the bathroom. Literally. And then you'd be like, I'm sitting right next to you here at the dark room in the lowery side of New York. Did you ever have a Blackberry? No. No. What was your, did you go Nokia right to iPhone? I was a, no, never. I was a, I was a Moto guy. I was a razor cat. Razor bro. Speaking of Razor bros, my brother-in-law introduced me to a term that I just want to work into my, my day-to-day life.

Yeah. He's, he's into craft beers, microbrews, IPAs. And I was like, well, so what, what do you consider yourself in the IPA community? Because I'm a novice. You're a pledge. And you know what he said he was? Straight face. Look me in the eye. He's a big guy. So you have to look down a little bit.

He proclaimed himself to be a juice wolf. No. Yes, he did. Bobby, you ever heard that before? Literally never. He says that he is out here with the pack. Uh-huh. prowling for sweet, sweet juice in the dank IPAs.

I didn't, I would not associate IPAs with juice. Oh, where you been, bro? I would associate with like tree moss. Yeah, or hoppiness. Yeah, or like pollen sitting on a meadow. Look, get familiar, okay? Juice Wolf. Yeah, I mean.

That just sounds like an odd future spinoff. Do you remember when I texted you on your sidekick, say, meet me at the Juice Wolf concert in the bathroom of the Juice Wolf concert? At North 6. Remember where there were like 13 bands with Wolf in the time? It's a weird year. 05, 06?

Yeah. I think that led to a really good Chuck column and spin. Anyway, the segue I wanted to do, I highly recommend both these TV shows. And we're going to be talking about them. I can't wait to talk about it, to watch them and talk about them.

But I did want to pivot and say that, so we're framing these shows as success stories in that they are the kinds of things that would not have worked as films and are taking full advantage of this. As we pivot to talking about the Apple TV plus Max

Peacock Slate Nope, not that one There was one Common thread that I found When I was watching the trailers for And they released These ambitious expanded trailers

For the majority of their launch shows Yeah, should I just run through The opening slate first? Sure, morning show being one of them, right? It's morning show, obviously, with Jennifer Aniston and Steve Kroll And that is a, I think a dromedy Sure.

About a network morning show and I think there's some based on the trailer, it seems like there's a M-2 movie. It's Matt Lowry. Yeah. Then there's C, S-E-E,

it's a futuristic dystopian show with Jason Mamoa and Alfre Woodard, which is set in a world where everybody is blind. Dickinson. So our world, am I right? Am I right, Conheads? Yang, gang.

Dickinson, Haley Steinfeld as Emily Dickinson. Yep. Kind of has some... You will believe a poetist can write. Like Euphoria Riverdale Vibes Yeah, I think

You're selling it For all mankind You know your man is Sowing on his NASA patch for this one Joel Kinneman and Michael Dorman Who will, you know If you guys got a chance to see Patriot He's the star of that

And Ren Schmidt It's from Ron Dymour And Eric Layden Who's that? He's a really good actor He was on The Killing He's the very Boardwalk Empire

He's a very young Baby-Faced blonde actor Oh, okay who's saying Nixon wants a woman on the moon. That's the catchphrase, by the way. Ronald D. Moore, and it's about what Nixon wants Nixon gets. What happens if the space race just continues. Yeah.

Yeah. And then there's also going to be M. Knight-Sharmulun's servant and Truth Be Told, which stars Octavis Spencer as a true crime podcaster and her sort of relationship. Nixon wants a dog on the moon. Aaron Paul, who plays a convict. And then there's a bunch of other stuff. some family fair, some nature stuff, I think. Okay.

There's something about like elephants, I think. Great. I'll definitely bookmark that. What was your whole thing, though? What was your jamming? I don't want to get in the way. You're talking about nature shows with this level of expertise I didn't expect.

Maybe they got some screensaver content. I love it. Listen, I watch these shows, and we will talk, I watch the trailers for these shows, because that's the level of coverage you can expect only on the watch mod. Okay. And I want to talk specifically about each one and our feelings about the slate as a whole. But my takeaway was and ascribe no value to this until we get a little bit deeper under the surface here.

But every one of the trailers I saw felt like a project that was a movie that couldn't be made in 2019. Not in the same way that we're talking about looking for Alaska or Watchmen are, like Watchmen, for example. example, or both of those projects are perhaps too ambitious to be contained in two hours and their storytelling possibilities. What I mean is if you go down the line of the slate and again, not every one of these, the origin of these is not frustrated scripts that have been on shelves in Hollywood for years. That's not the case. But the genre of each of these projects, as they were being sold in the trailers, which again might not also be wholly accurate and result. And I think, I hope that's the case with Dickinson and we'll talk about that. But the, the,

ambitious adult space race movie, the star-laden network news drama? medium-level news drama, exactly. The original IP dystopian sci-fi project. And the kind of like... Get me a bird box? Right, and the grimy kind of... of, what's that primal fear, kind of... Yeah, Richard Gear. Like, that, again, again, a medium adult... A divorce district attorney.

A medium adult movie. You know, there was the whole genre for years, and I can't even... I don't have a name for the genre, but I could describe the VHS box. Well, there was, in the 90s, there was the from hell thrillers. It was all the, like, babysitter from hell, boyfriend from hell. That plus, like, remember, malice? Yeah. You know, or...

It's adult contemporary thrillers. Anything with Michael Keaton for a certain period of time? Pacific Heights. That's the one I'm thinking of. So all of these are recognizable genres to a certain aged cinema file, right? And basically Apple seems to be positioning itself for as the kind of, again, medium, not value medium, but just sort of right down the middle, a home for this type of storytelling that you might have missed in your life. I think also it's worth noting that I don't, you know, as Apple comes into this fresh for the most part, and they've probably. view their originals while they're going to be pushing the hell out of them as part of a you turn on your Apple TV and you have all these little boxes that you can choose from. It doesn't matter if it's a movie or a television show to them. You know, it doesn't it's it's not about format or necessarily even like any kind of traditional storytelling ideas that belong on a bigger small screen or two hour versus 10 hour stretch. It's just all in the same box. And they're they're going to see what sticks here.

Maybe C would have been better as a blockbuster that they paid for. And you know what? They're paying for these movies too now. They bought, I think they just bought a Ryan Reynolds movie. I think for a year at least, when we were talking about Apple's presence in the original's marketplace, we were saying, or I was saying certainly, and probably I said it slightly dismissively. I don't know if that was fair, that they were in the press release business. Sure.

It took a while for this stuff to come together. To actually come together. Some of these shows have been in the can for a minute. Yes, they have. the whole season's just sitting on the shelf. But what I would say is maybe that was too small of a frame to consider it through. I think when I say they were in the press release business, I mean that they are in the one-sheet business.

They are in the grab-your-ey-ey-ey-se business, right? Like as quickly as possible. And so releasing a splashy press release saying we have Steve Correll, Jennifer Anderson, and Reese Witherspoon gets the media class, of which we are proud members, chattering. Similarly, you're talking about the box that it's in on your screen. It's literally about that box. When you open your Apple TV, there's a box that has, you know, the one sheet poster for the Blockbuster movie like Avengers. That's going to be there for the buy on iTunes.

But the movie itself is going to be on Disney Plus. Yeah. So what's on the other box? Well, there's movie stars and beloved TV personalities, Jennifer Aniston and Steve Correll. Let's touch that box. Yep. Or there's a classic old-timey NASA space shuttle launching. Oh, let's click that.

I know what that feels like. I actually... There's Aquaman. Watching... So I've been watching more stuff. on my TV via the Apple TV box recently. Like I think possibly because I watch Sunday ticket on my Apple TV, so I wind up just like kind of having it open all the time,

especially over the weekends. And you start to see, I start to feel reluctant to leave the portal. The ecosystem, yeah. Which is, and you know, you can watch Netflix, Hulu, NFL Sunday ticket, NBA, MLB, ESPN. And, like, you can watch pretty much everything in there. I imagine YouTube TV would be in there if I had YouTube TV. So I can feel it replacing the cable box experience,

even though I idiotically still pay for cable. I do the same. I never use my cable box ever, except, oh, no, I mean, the Mr. Robot premiere, I DVR'd and watched like a 37-year-old. Like, I would have a few years ago. But everything else, it's just... Yeah, there's a prime video, like, channel for Apple TV. So you can feel the replacement coming.

And I get that when I open it, if I was not like as sort of like unfortunately well informed about all this stuff as as I am, I probably would find the ease of use really easy. I mean, Bobby came in today and he was like, what, how many did you watch Bobby? There's only four out so far. So he watched like four episodes of rhythm and flow last night. And I was like, why? And he was like, because it was there on Netflix. Wow. Not to say that you're an automaton, Bobby. I think that you're a really discerning guy. But you were like, you. You. It was ease of use, right? Yeah, pretty much. And also just like I saw Cardi B there. And I think she's funny. That's exactly what Greenwald say.

Also, he needed to take the edge off because he knew he was going to be working with you today. Bright and early, first floor guy. You fucking guys. First floor, Ryan. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Pepsi. There are a lot of things to celebrate these days in pop culture. And Pepsi can take all of your celebrations to the next level.

Whether your favorite show returns for a new season, your favorite director will, releases a new movie or your favorite band drops a new album when it's time to celebrate, it's time to crack open a Pepsi. Obviously, there's tons of TV coming. There's great movies coming. It's almost Oscar season. But we're still in the throes of a very viable Philadelphia E. Will's campaign. Don't let anybody, don't let the, everybody's in the pocket of big packers. And they're telling you, oh, Philly's out of it, Green Bay, Green Bay's class in the NFC. No, that's not true. And I'll tell you why. I believe in Carson Wend's.

I believe in Doug Peterson, and I believe in cracking open ice-cold Pepsi when the Eagles destroy the Cowboys in Dallas on Sunday. Pepsi is the official sponsor of the NFL,

and it reminds you to always be celebrating. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Watchmen. Nothing ever ends. Rolling Stone calls HBO's Watchman a dazzling reinvention, a reimagining of the world

originally seen in the groundbreaking 1980s graphic novel of the same name. Damon Lindelof's Watchman is set in an ultimate history of present-day America where the lines between vigilantes and mass crime fighters are blurred and the only true superhero is nowhere to be found on earth. Stylized, darkly funny, and profoundly human as its characters struggle with personal and ethical

issues. The series stars Regina King, Gene Smart, Don Johnson, and Jeremy Irons, and features music from Trent Rezner and Atticus Frost. Watchman is, quote, spectacular. Equal parts insightful and exciting hails Indie Wire. Watchman premieres Sunday, October 20th at 9 p.m. only on HBO. So do you want to talk about the shows in particular?

Yeah. I'm most fired up about for all mankind. Yeah, I think, I mean, we should start there. I think of all of them, that one feels the most interesting to me, not just because, you know, I can't diagnose the problem and then pretend I'm immune to it, or as a problem, diagnose the situation. Like, that is, once it clicks in, I'm like, okay, yeah,

that's a world that I'm interested in. And a story that I can understand is being told over multiple episodes if not multiple seasons. And what was interesting to me about it was, I mean, it is a, it's a great hook. Yeah. It is a very simple, downloadable idea. Let me ask you this, though. Yeah.

Go ahead. And you finish your idea. Just to say that, like, that's a great pitch, right? Soviets get to the moon first. So what do we do next? Right. And then what happens next? And so it's one of those like butterfly effect, sliding doors, alt histories, but it's a period piece.

And I think smartly, it's one that appears to be. advancing its alternate history on a step-by-step more granular level. It's not The Man in the High Castle, which was, whoa, here we go. Everything is different. I think it's also trying to... It looks like it's trying to capture

some of the good things and the bad things about the space race, right? Because the space race was ultimately also about the military industrial complex in a lot of ways, but it also captured some things that we believed in ourselves about a country.

It is not... The elevator pitch for this isn't the wrong stuff. It appears to be the right stuff, but slightly left of center right. Why isn't Seth Rogen made the wrong stuff yet about a bunch of astronauts who love to do Coke? Hollywood Fixer. Back in it. It's these guys astronauts, right? But they're just sitting there.

The computer flies it. So they're just drinking 40s. And what if they're wrong? Rose Burns there. I mean, it's a given. It's already part of a seven-picture deal. So I think I'm most fired up for all mankind. Um, that's the one that I'm, I'm really jazzed for.

Morning show, I saw a story that said morning show costs like a $300 million. I mean, it has got to be one of the most expensive shows ever made. I believe Corel is, you know, alone is getting a million dollars an episode for what appears to be a supporting performance. Yes. Um, Morning Show is the one that, that, like, if that's, they're putting all their money in it because it is not just a show. It is their, literally, it's their loss leader. It's their, this is going on the poster. This is who we have.

this is the tone we want to set. It's the face of the franchise. Yeah, it's also there. It's there, not that Hollywood needs any introduction to Apple, I guess, at this point, but if they manage to make this incredible star vehicle that will only entice more stars to join the fold. Yeah, they want it to be a positive experience for the people who are involved. And remember, also when you're working with Reese Witherspoon, you're not just working with one of the more popular stars of the current era. You're working with one of the more influential and now acclaimed and successful television producers of the current era. And so being in business with her and her company is a big thing for them.

So there are a lot of levels to it. I guess the essential thing is, do you feel based on the presentation of it and the advertisements? And by the way, speaking of advertisements, it is so Apple to release these trailers and, of course, spend a holy fucking fortune on the soundtrack to the trailers, right? I mean, they are licensing the shit out of very popular classic rock songs to soundtrack. this stuff as someone who has recently been involved in the putting together and release of trailers with more to come. Let me just say music is the hardest and often pricey as part of it. Right. And you have to write letters to Pete Townsend and be like, please let me use.

Dear Mr. Townsend. Anyway, do you want to watch the show, though? Is there something about this Star Power or media meta story, intrigue aside, do you want to watch the show? I feel obligated to watch it right now. Right. as a cultural gatekeeper. It's, no, I mean,

I just feel obligated to check it out. It is not a show that I was like, man, I really need another, I want another one of these. A show about like a network newsroom.

I'm very curious to see across the board with Apple. I think my major question for, for, um, the morning show as well as anything else is a question of tone. And whether or not there's going to be faints towards, uh, sort of complicated.

honest portrayals of humanity, but staying within the boundaries of essentially life affirming, feel good entertainment, or whether anything will get dark and complicated or interesting or weird. Yes, well, here, I mean, this is essentially the, this is light, light concern trolling here,

but I'm going to do it anyway because we're talking about stuff we haven't seen. This was a project in search of a TV show before it was a TV show, right? It was a splashy thing, Michael Ellenberg, who had been head of drama at HBO optioned Brian Stelter's book Top of the Morning, big press release, as we were saying, sold to Apple, with stars attached, but without a show. And it cycled through two show runners with different takes on it before it settled on this current version, a current version that was helped.

That actually sounds pretty cynical to say helped, but it was. was definitely inspired and it pivoted because of the Me Too allegations against Matt Lauer

and the effects the trickle-down effects that happened that gained a new resonance in the media and it pivoted towards that story

which is a compelling story certainly. The thing about this though is is this a rubber meets road

moment right at the beginning for Apple who definitely want to capture some old Hollywood wonder

and splendor in their storytelling the trailer drops for the show well we are now

two weeks out from the launch of the show, right when Ronan Farrow's book comes out and the toxic culture at NBC News and Matt Lauer's misdeeds take on an even more sinister tone and turn in the media and our understanding of what's going on. Is it possible for a show

that wants to be all of these things, that it wants to be an entertaining newsroom dramedy, that it wants to be a female empowerment, let's go sister, show, which the trailer suggests that it does, that it wants to have beloved Steve Correll as a person who has potentially done some misdeeds. Can it actually grapple with the truly appalling, sinister, evil reality that it seems to be lightly reflecting? Can it keep up? Does it want to keep up? How does it interact with a larger culture and how does that

larger culture influence our appreciation of it? All questions that will be answered in the Yeah, I mean, and that I think comes up, is going to come up more and more as, not that we can get much faster, but as the pace quickens of world events in the next, you know, 12 to 18 months or whatever, and throughout next summer and into the election next year, and I just think things are just going to get more and more, if you can possibly imagine, intense, is how we feel like pop culture reflects that moment. And whether or not it's easier or more understandable when you are, looking at things perhaps not metaphorically, but removed from reality a little bit. I mean,

there was something about, I felt that way about Watchman, is that it had a little bit, it was almost had more to say about contemporary America by just completely reimagining what contemporary America was than it did if it was like trying to keep up with, I think that's, with our current times. I think that's often the case. I wonder if, I mean, for all mankind, which is imagining an alternate history and imagining an alternate history of feminism as well in a world where women are immediately rushed into the space program to compete or outdo the Russians due to their landing on the moon first. Is that a safer space because of the distance of history to tackle these issues in a dramatic way? Who knows? But it is an interesting question. And the thing

that I'll say that I that remains a bigger open question for me is is Dickinson, which On paper, and literally on paper, like look at the Wikipedia page, look at the IMDB page, read about the people involved in the show and their goals for the show. To me is the most interesting of all of them. So what are those goals? Well, first of all, again, this is the new spirit of everything we have to say. Full disclosure, anonymous content is one of the production companies behind the show. Anonymous content is involved in prior patch as well. I'm going to start doing that, but I'm going to do it for like Michael Bay. I think that's fair. Like when we talk about Six Underground, I'm like, full disclosure, Michael Bay has been.

been filming my life. We're making boyhood, too. Full, full disclosure. Briar Patch's production offices were located down the hall from Army of the Dead's production offices. Zach Snyder's $200 million Netflix movie. Did you ever see Chris Delia there? I didn't know that he was in that movie. I didn't. A lot of people involved in Briar Patch saw Dave Batista hanging at the hotel. That's cool. That was the extent of it. Although Zach Snyder did fly helicopters over the office a lot. I don't know if he personally was. Did you overhead shots or just like just to get practice? Unclear. Okay.

I will look at it. Gilligan loves flying helicopters, too. Did you read that? What's up with guys in Albuquerque? It's not the Albuquerque. I think it's what's up with rich guys. Well, yeah, but like, first of all, just you can't get me in a chopper. Even though you are now parking on the first floor, you have not yet.

Why would I need a chopper? I get first floor parking. If I'm on the roof, I'll fucking blame my chopper up there. That's right. I'll never go in a helicopter. Yeah, I think we've, we've just, I feel like helicopters. I get it. I get why, like, Logan Roy uses the,

a lot. Right. But I just don't think that they're safe. The thing, I would not want to get one either, although I will say you are one footstep further along the path towards helicopter than I am with your love of headphones and talking while wearing headphones. That's dope. I like that part of it. When they're all wearing the headphones and then they use that effect on their voice, like, you know, they're talking to the mic, otherwise they couldn't hear. Yeah. Yeah. We're coming around. Yeah, that one. I don't know. Is that how they talk? I want more. Yeah. I want more helicopter effect. Anyway, so Dickinson, written by Alina Smith.

Very funny, talented young writer. Great cast, not just Haley Steinfeld, who's starring in it, but the great, great, great Toby Huss from Halt and Catch Fire, Jane Krakowski from 30 Rock, Matt Loria, you may remember from Friday Night Lights is in it as well. David Gordon Green is involved in the show. And it seems this is the one that to me, I believe he did. This is the one that to me feels kind of audacious.

Yes. Right? It is a very, very, very... It's the one of those trailers that people I've talked to, have been like, what the fuck is that? The trailer does not seem to be selling the show that I think the show wants to be. And that's the collision between the new air of TV that we get excited about

and what Apple kind of wants to do with entertainment or appears to want to do with entertainment. Because the show is a, I mean, it's about, it's a completely creative liberty-taking exploration of famed poetess Emily Dickinson and her fight to be recognized as a writer and as an individual in the 19th century. sort of a coming-of-age story mixed with magical realism, mixed with modern sensibility, voice, and language.

Yeah. And comedy. And it seems to be this, again, like, audacious combination of all of these ideas all mixed into one show. The trailer makes it seem like a Disney movie. Yes. Except there are these weird little moments where you hear them using slang. It seemed like a little bit more like contemporary teen drama. Like, yeah.

Let me say it made it seem. I didn't think it was like the sweet life of Emily Dickinson. No, it seems maybe C-W-E. But I think that what it's trying to do might be a little bit more provocative than that and more risk-taking than that. I mean, honestly, all respect to the Riverdale extended universe, which is just bad shit bonkers and a lot of fun and does that type of storytelling extremely well. Right. But what's interesting to me is that this is the show that seems, for lack of a better word, cool. This is the coolest show that they've got.

and the brand, again, respect to knowing your brand early, does not seem to be cool. So will it translate? Will they communicate it correctly? Does this sort of storytelling fit into it? And for as much as, look, we have Reese Witherspoon happy, that sends a message to Hollywood. Does do we, can we also support, coddle, nurture, and promote a wildly left-of-center project? That also sends a message to the Hollywood creative community. And I say this, again, do I even need to do these disclaimers anymore?

I haven't seen any of these shows. I haven't read the script. I know nothing else about it. You mentioned Disney briefly there. And one of the funniest things is like, so this is we're in the last two weeks before Apple launches. And this week, the Disney Plus Twitter feed. Yes, they went to explode it.

Logged the fuck on. It came online. And they just did, they were like, here's what we're launching with. And, you know, obviously everybody's pretty jacked about the Mandalorian. But, and this has been, this is a, this has been observed by many people. We forget what Disney was like pre-08 for, like, pre-Ire-Man for like decades, where it's just the unidentified flying oddball. And the Apple Dumpling Gang rides again with Don Knott's. All of the.

I'm looking at a fucking movie poster. Yeah. That says the cat from outer space and it's just a giant cat standing next. to a UFO in the moon. Listen, that's a good poster. That sells the whole project right there. I'm just scrolling through these and you're just like, oh, these can't be real. Like, can we have the whole...

There's a dog that's a district attorney. It's called the Shaggy DA. Oh, I remember that. Did you watch it? Probably. People don't understand. It was like living in a desert for decades, childhood. There were movies that I remember that I can't believe were real.

What was the movie that they showed in school on, like, rainy days or like when field trips got canceled. There was a movie about a kid and a basketball player and there's a artificial intelligence. Was it 1962's Sammy the way out seal? I would love to see that movie again. That's actually a dark and dystopic vision. Was it 1961's Greyfriars Bobby which seems to be about another shit? Every one of these movies is about a dog

or a cat or a kid. Those are three popular groups. Like people love those things. Darby O' Gill and the little people? What do you think that's about? I bet it's about a jolly Irishman who becomes friendly with people who are, you know, smaller than others. Let me tell you know what I liked of these

that I really rocked with when I was a kid? The Davey Crockett movies. The Fish That Saved Pittsburgh was the name of that movie. That's a real thing. They used to show that to you on like rainy days. Well, like once. School was weird, man.

I had a teacher who in retrospect, I don't know if he took his job that seriously. And he would just show us, like, Spartacus all the time. He would just be like, so we're talking about, like, the Native Americans in 18th century America. And he'd just be like, you know, let's watch Spartacus. And it was like the two tape Spartacus. And he's like, to illustrate the continuum of time and history that we're talking about. And we would just sit there to not be tested on it.

Was this like an airplane when Peter Graves is like? Do you like gladiator movies? You've ever been in a Turkish prison to me? No comment. It's funny you should say that. I had a similar experience where we had in high school a teacher whom we loved. Like just she was so cool and she was young and fun. And she offered a class, I don't remember any of the details, but like in I guess junior year, you could choose classes to some degree.

And so she was doing this class on like European history. And we're like, great, it'll be with this teacher whom we love. And she had been new the year before and she was really fun. So, like, 10 people took this class. And, wow, this is going to be great. It's going to be about learning and history. And, you know, she was a really dynamic teacher. And on day one, she fired up the old VHS tape machine and was like, we're going to watch a man for all seasons to learn about this era of European history.

Great. It's classic film. Dope. Classic film. We watched it, talked about it. And then, you know, then the next week, we're like, okay, let's get into this. Let's really mix it up with, you know, at the buffet of European history, which is a, you know, sizzler-sized buffet. She's like, let's watch Reds.

Reds is about communism, which is a thing in Europe. What would she be doing when this was happening? In retrospect, I think there were some troubles at home. Okay. And it was actually a sad story that we watched movies for an entire semester. Right. But, you know, it really made me the successful cinema podcaster that I am today. Because your two favorite movies are Reds.

And a man for all seasons. The only two movies you've seen. That I referenced. Okay. You know, we don't have a lot more to go through. I just wanted to talk to you a little bit as we were sort of arriving at the Disney stuff, and Disney is kind of just posting, you know, that funky dash and 1966 box office smash. But I know maybe you're about to make this turn too, but it was funny for them to do that,

but it was also they knew that was going to be funny. Yes. The bigger thing is they're saying, look at this giant Scrooge McDuck sized content bank that we have. Yeah. That we have. It's not all gold. It was definitely a Mickey coming moment where they're just like, we got thousands of fucking movies to put up here. And it's just endless hours of entertainment.

And whether you watch it ironically or not, it doesn't matter to them. I mean, you will not catch me watching Greenbriars Folly ironically. Right. You only watch that seriously. No, I'm about to turn 42. Like, I have, I got, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, they're, they're about to call in the middle reliever for me in life. You know what I mean? Yeah.

See, I feel like my life was modeled more like a Tampa Bay Rays game where we started with a closer. And then we've just been piecing it together every inning since. You were throwing 90. I know, I just feel like it was over before it began. You know what I mean? We're just stringing it together the best we can. Bobby knows so much more about baseball than we do. I wonder what do you think of this metaphor.

We're so deep in the metaphor that I'm not even sure if I can follow on the other side of it. Or a bad thing. The opener is a good idea, Andy. So maybe you're working with it. That's right. I just feel like at any minute Andrew Miller is going to come in for me. Hell yeah.

And any other, or like for me, I think it's going to be the injured David Robertson. You know what I mean? Like someone you sign for a lot of money, high hopes, maybe throws a pitcher two

and then just collects checks in the rehab. Where was I? Disney, I'm not going to watch it ironically. I don't have to because they've got some good shit coming. Yeah. So aside from Mandalorium,

and then next year they'll have all the Marvel stuff I think. There was news this week that they're bringing one of the patron saints of the watch, Tony Gilroy. Yeah.

Who famously or infamously worked on Ro 1, directed some scenes, rewrote the script. We'll be joining the creative team behind the Cassian and and Or spinoff

with Diego Luna. Yeah. Which was being show run by Stephen Schiff, who's an accomplished screenwriter, worked on the Americans for several years, was a film critic.

at the Boston Phoenix. Shout out to the Boston Phoenix back in the 80s. But Tony Gilroy is going to direct some episodes, I believe. And that is, that's okay by me. That gets my seal of approval.

It does feel, I mean, since we're talking baseball, there is just becoming this crushing feeling of inevitability to Disney's dominance that is like the Yankees used to be in our memories and conception of sports.

It's just like, well, of course. What a baseball pod for us. Of course. You know. This is back, like you're talking about like Rudy Giuliani sitting third baseline. By the way. So do you talk about the last week? I'm sorry, where are we in Space Time Continuum?

Yeah, it's crazy because they can build an entire rollout strategy for a billion-dollar streaming service based on, you know, movies about fish and leprechauns. because when they actually make a commercial for TV, which they've made, it's just fucking the Guardians of the Galaxy and Moana. Yeah. And ESPN highlights. And it's like, well, those are the things that people like to watch.

You've definitely just checked off three of the most important things in your life. In my life. Yeah. I mean, I like highlights and Moana. The Dattington Hive will relate to nothing more than this, the fact that, like, if you have, children, you have to shell out the 20 bucks on iTunes or whatever your preferred dealer is to get the Disney movies that you will be watching endlessly and certainly endlessly on planes.

Those are all on Disney, blues now or they soon will be. Like that is just you have to get it. You're going to have to get it. And that inevitability is really something. What's amazing, and this is this was kind of what we talked about with the Mandalorian before, is that if they are smart and savvy enough to realize that they can also get literally us, literally us, by making a Star Wars TV show

that ticks all the boxes of what we have been saying, our type of fan has been saying they want out of the Star Wars universe while they reboot it for children who haven't been born yet in China, the movie version of it. And similarly, they're like, well, let's get Tony Gilroy to do this.

Right. You know? I feel very close to talking about my own history with Tony Gilroy. Please do. Which hasn't come up on the pod before. I don't think so because you know, you've been keeping it pretty tight. I was keeping it tight.

Last year, Chris, Chris, you know this. I spent a couple days with the god Tony Gilroy in New York City. Just playing underground poker. Just put your T-Mobile sidekicks in a basket and going down to Chinatown poker clubs. Real talk, it felt possible. Like there was a, there was a project. that potentially I was going to be working on with the great Tony Gilroy, and I had the true pleasure. There's no joke in this of meeting him, sitting with him over a couple meals, talking about stuff.

And the thing about that dude is he is that dude. Now, I'm saying this now publicly because I do want to invite him to come on the podcast to talk about these things. He was very into it. Let's say he was, I would say, bemused by our ardor for the Bourne Legacy. Legacy, yeah. Which, you know, he was happy to hear because he was fond of it and had a lot of thoughts about it. But the thing that I'll say about Tony Gilroy is that there's a certain, like, Corinthian leather feel to aspects of his films, right? And particularly...

The stitching is great. But, like, the vibe of Michael Clayton, which is that, as you said, there's like, you could slip into backroom poker things. You could maybe invest in a buddy's restaurant or something. Tony Gilroy's house, which he refers to as the house that Jerry Bruckheimer bought for him, is the nicest home I've ever been in in Manhattan, New York. And what I'll say about him, total gentleman, what would you guess if you go over to Tony Gilroy's house after dinner, what's he going to offer you before you sit down into a buttery rich armchair to talk about a project? No, after dinner.

After dinner. Port. Although, of course, his lovely wife was actually cooking up something. So maybe he dines on a European schedule? Port. No, you know it's not port. Think about it. Like really, close your eyes, Luke, and search your feelings.

No, no, no. The kind of vodka that you don't know exists, that is basically like, the bottle could be empty, or it could be, like, hand-pressed out of hand-selected wheat by Tibetan monks. Unclear. but a glass of the purest, cleanest vodka you've ever had muddled with a segment of the type of Mandarin orange that I've never tasted before.

On the rocks? Yeah. Yeah. That would be gross if it wasn't. No, just like a little fresh muddled citrus with clean vodka and a heavy bottom tumbler just to get the night going. It is one of the pleasures of my life, honestly,

that I was able to... He was like, would you like another? And I was like, no, no. No, dad. I'm sorry, Tony. I don't want to ruin the first experience, yeah. I don't want to ruin this moment. But, and then I'll say, because less about him and more about me, at the end of the night, standing the kitchen across from his, like, beautiful counter, the island in his kitchen.

And I was like... Nice marble? Oh, my God, it was so nice. It was so nice. His wife was so nice. And I, one million percent never wanted to leave. And he was asking me about Briar Patch, and we were, like, a couple months away from shooting the pilot.

And we, in Liliiarmorpor was not attached yet or not involved. We hadn't even met with her. And I was asking him about it. And he was, I was asking him about, like, his approach to directing all this stuff. And there was a moment when he paused. And he gave me this, like, incredible cock-eyed Cassion andor slash Michael Clayton Grin.

And he looked at me for a second. And he looked through me. And he read my brainwaves like Neo in the Matrix. And he, before he took another sip of high-prayton- rice vodka, he said, I'm not going to direct your fucking pilot. Did he really say that? You never told me that. Yeah, he did.

He did. It was great. What a fucking legend. The king. Are you serious? The king. That's amazing. Yeah.

I love him. I hope that he'll come on and talk about the stuff with us. Well, he'll probably be busy making Cassian Andor for a while, but I hope he does too. What a way to end. Let's wrap it up there. Greenwald, thank you so much for coming through. It's so fun. I love to podcast.

Monday, will you come by and we'll do Watchmen? We'll talk Watchman on Monday for sure. Okay. All right. Thanks to Bobby. Thanks to the watch listeners. Thanks to Tony Gilroy. Thanks to talk to you guys Monday. Thanks to Christine Varnski for your continued support of this podcast. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Pepsi. There are a lot of things to celebrate these days in pop culture.

And Pepsi can take all of your celebrations to the next level. Whether your favorite show returns for a new season, your favorite director releases a new movie or your favorite band drops a new album. When it's time to celebrate, it's time to crack open a Pepsi. Pepsi, the official sponsor of the NFL, reminds you to always be celebrating.